025: Debbie Millman & Michael Bierut of AIGA New York

Before they were design royalty, Debbie Millman and Michael Bierut both remember what it felt like to be on the outside. Debbie got kicked out of an AIGA special interest group for doing work that was “too commercial.” Michael, working at one of design’s most prestigious studios, felt like a dinosaur compared to the experimental West Coast crowd.In the late 1990s, before you could connect with designers online, AIGA was the only game in town. And getting seated next to the right person at a leadership dinner could change everything.This is the story of how two people who didn’t quite fit in helped transform AIGA from an exclusive club into something more like a real community—one email, one dinner, one “yes” at a time.Key TakeawaysAIGA retreats were the only channel: Before digital, sitting next to the right person at dinner could change your career.Both sides felt excluded: Too experimental and too commercial designers have been shut out by AIGA—sometimes at the same timeGetting kicked out taught inclusion: Being told her work was too commercial shaped how Debbie led as president.Leadership means making space: Especially for people who feel like outsiders.Saying yes builds community: To emails, invitations, and people who aren’t in the club.AIGA survived by embracing change: Desktop publishing, the internet, social media—every threat became an evolution.Key Moments in This Episode03:08 – The dinner that changed everything: Debbie sits next to Michael at the Baltimore leadership retreat11:06 – Why that first dinner mattered: AIGA felt elitist, and the warmth of one conversation shifted everything12:33 – The evolution question: Milton Glaser voices what democratizing AIGA will mean for the organization's identity18:46 – Getting kicked out: Debbie is removed from the brand experience group for being too commercial27:59 – AIGA’s impact on career: Both credit the organization as essential to their success30:12 – Before digital connection existed: AIGA was the only way designers could meet each other49:23 – Leadership advice: When in doubt, say yes52:58 – Making people feel seen: Why Michael still answers every email he receivesAbout Our GuestsDebbie Millman is one of the most influential voices in contemporary design. Her podcast Design Matters is celebrating 20 years of documenting design culture with over 500 episodes, while her leadership at AIGA and SVA has helped democratize access to design education and community. A prolific author, brand consultant, and artist, she's built a career on the belief that design should be inclusive, intellectually rigorous, and deeply human.Michael Bierut is a designer's designer—a Pentagram partner for 35 years (now semi-retired) whose client work is matched by his contributions to design discourse and education. From co-founding Design Observer to serving as AIGA President during a pivotal era of digital transformation, he's helped shape how designers think about their profession. For over three decades, he's taught at Yale School of Art, where his influence extends far beyond any single project or logo.FeaturingGuest Debbie Millman, connect on LinkedInGuest Michael Beirut, connect on LinkedInHost Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedInHost Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn Support the ShowTheme music: Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic OceansProduced by Chapter 2 MediaSubscribe to the Together by Design newsletter for more community-building and podcast episode updatesSponsored by: Able Made, The Original Off Pitch Soccer Style: shop nowSponsored by: Draplin Design Company, check us out!Sponsored by: The People's Graphic Design Archive: browse, contribute, and research