12302025 LIKE A GOOD BOOK CLUB - November Meeting Audio

Well hello again, we're inching ever closer to the end of the year to our happy new year almost But first I'm presenting to you our November book club audio a live recording from our book club meeting in November Discussing the book men explain things to me by Rebecca Solnit. I loved this one I really like this meeting as well, so hopefully you'll enjoy it and we only have one more to go after this so sit back catch up Let's talk about literature Good morning everybody we are here for our book club Saturday November 29th to discuss men explaining things to me I'm gonna explain the process of this book club to me, please I'll shut up this thing, but here is the I'm putting in the chat the document if anybody wants to lead Rose. Oh If I want to lean anybody else on sleep, but yeah, hi welcome everybody. I'll leave since I didn't read the book.

Oh Wait Kristen's here So let's do a little raw I like to do a little roll call first because I listened to one of the book clubs before and I was like wait Who's that wait? Who's that I don't recognize that voice? So this is Rose just and I'll pass it to Merit Just say your name. I'm married.

I'm married and then Pat. Let's go to Valerie. Hi, I'm Valerie Tanya I am Tanya and Grace. I am Grace and Kristen Hi, I'm Chrissy in real life, but Kristen and Chris laptop.

Hi Chrissy. Welcome back. Hi Okay Our token mail and I will be explaining All right, Rose take it away. Okay, so everybody show your picture.

I mean not your picture your Your book so you can take picture. I have my ebook, but I wasn't prepared for this. It's all the same cover Well, then I'll just take a picture everybody smile one two three Great. Yeah, so who wants to do a summary of the book?

Beyond that it's about men explaining things. I feel this empowered to do something explaining things that's the thing that's just the first essay and then there's six more or I guess eight more depending on which edition of The book you have which I found out today that there's a later edition that has two more which mine doesn't so how many essays did everyone read? I read seven. How like a man how like a man.

I don't know there was a later edition You know you're Is it because you don't have a headphone is that why I just put mine and I'm hoping that helps okay cool. All right, who wants to give a summary? Who wants to tell us the titles of the seven to nine essays? It's hard to summarize because they're all you know sort of different topics are all about you know gender and sort of the current David also history So yeah, like one was about the IMF which is something you heard a lot about in the early two thousand at least I Know much about anymore Like one of them was about the changes in marriage and I get about how gay marriage makes marriage brings out the idea of equal marriage for anyone So that it does change the definition of marriage There is an essay sort of about how female ancestors are lost There's an essay about what Virginia Wolf wrote about darkness and the unknown and how son that thinks that has a Hope and also talked about some Susan Sontag essays.

I can't remember if this is One of the ones that everyone didn't read because Sandra Ellen crepes is that one everyone? I know it's one of the I can't remember which one of the last ones are the additional ones And the first box one are in their standard edition as well. It's two more that I haven't run so you said yes to So because they're going to crepes and hashtag yes all women are the ones that I've one read and um Hashtag I guess all women sort of out like the precursor to me too from before me to happen about um Some social media movements about sexual assault um that sort of spread throughout the world that she thought similar to change Cassandra among the crepes was about um with the Cassandra and How women you know are and other people aren't believe about sexual assault and other experiences of gender violence And then Pandora's box and the volunteer police force was another one about how Even though progress is it linear um once things start to change you can't fully go back Do we know when the second edition came out like what year? I think it was 2015 because it was because she was specifically in the hashtag yes all women like there was no match of me too 2016 2017 right That's what I think it was I think it was 2015.

I think they were written in 2014 on 2015. It's who does the publication say Yeah, just as 2014 on application date That's not one's Nice. Thank you grace So did you how do we feel about the book to be laughed and cried cringe? What was your favorite essay?

I feel like it started out pretty depressing just because it was about the state of the world And I also think things have gotten worse since she wrote it So that's why especially um the last like the last essay that I guess I everyone had the Pandora's box one. I was like Well, like maybe we can't fully put the ideas back in the box, but they're sure trying Um, so sort of depressing but I think it also did give me hope it sometimes I especially like um the both essay and the grandmother's letter on and the way that she is our sort of to give us hope because I think History I think it's much more things that are helped with that Those were actually my favorite as well because I like her writing I've read a lot of her books This was the first one that I've read of hers 10 years ago just about like right after it got released Um, so it was really interesting to revisit it now after so much time because so many of the essays deal with current events of the time of writing So it was really interesting to revisit it after so much time removed and yeah It was weird experience but those later like more abstract essays about literary things and art Uh, that's what I really like what really resonates with me in her writing. Um, so yeah, those were really great And the Pandora's box one that's the last one in the standard edition as well. So everyone had that one Um, her most recent essay collection and I think I don't remember what book we were talking about a couple months ago But I mentioned it today because it was really reminded me of it Um, her last collection of essays from this year is called no straight road takes you there And it's kind of like the same sentiment So how you need to zoom out and look at how far you've come like and it's even if it feels like in your activism That things are going backwards instead of forwards and you're not really making a lot of progress If you just take a moment to look back at how far you've really come then you'll see that's there's hope and there hasn't been progress even if it's slow Good advice for all of us, right?

I really liked I mean obviously the the title essay Um, first of all, I was really grateful to get back to nonfiction and it was such an easy like it was so well written It was just conversational it was conversational in terms. I really appreciated that I loved the first essay and then my mind was sort of blown apart when I read about the The perspective on gay marriage being not just about like we're pressing gay people But we're actually trying to men are trying to preserve the hierarchy of the disparity between the sexes So it made so much sense. I also looked at that painting of the woman doing laundry, which was so beautiful I don't know if you've actually saw the painting but it was uh, Ana to Tresa Fernandez Hell yeah right now, which is spider web and sandish, but um, it's all over the internet, but it was really beautiful So I really appreciated that one did every book have the photos between the essays because that because those are by the artist And I think that that one or at least one that looks like it is one of the ones between them It might have been it was near the end so it could be that not all the same pictures that had a picture of every essay still Minded One of the first things I grabbed me about this book because I recognized that the photo at the beginning of the woman straightening her hair On the ironing board and here's the long I know that artists I've seen had before I recognized that and that really threw me in Even more than the subject did subject matter did because I really love the photography from that artist Yeah, definitely I know we're not to like the Tory part yet But yeah, just crucify over and over beneath these dirty sheets looking for a savior and like I loved that the pictures gave you like a visual break to all the very Deep material that she's writing about because it can get kind of like oh my god Is she from the future like she's predicting voter fraud and one of the essays and like you know Not that we didn't know that that that was happening but like on the grand scale that that all became true um and the way that she used that to compare to the false rape Allegations just how how those things still parallel so much today. Yeah I need a hill like how big that became and still here we are with a had a filing chief and Her rapist in chief and we can't Seemed you to serve him, you know and like so a lot of it was like really in raging for me Like I'm sitting there reading this and I'm just like We're here, you know, we're in the times of dragons, but like Yeah, so the photos gave me like a okay a moment to sort of Find the art in it like she was talking about and find the voice of the art and what's coming through um expression And what comes out of that in these circumstances?

so yeah So not on the question list, but um did anyone find uh Inspiration for art as a result of reading things. I mean in a merit you do art. Were you able to pick that I don't know I guess what can amount to be an oppressive topic these days to spark some sort of uh artwork Resistance through art. Yeah, definitely.

I think that's always like the The pole um is is um as Tori says combating destruction through creation What does that be this little bracelet? I'm making for the sewer or like the collages and stuff like that of like going in and finding the ways to give It voice and I think that art is what gives it voice and gives it her fun to do and Yeah Because you got to do something with the rage and you can't you can't go violent, right? That's We have to stay peaceful in our inner protests and get in good trouble and that kind of thing so Yeah, but it definitely was like a provoking book or I was like calm down calm down Well, so that leads us to the next question, which is how thought provoking did you find it? Don't everybody jump at once right?

Aphronces very do you want to say more about Barry? I feel like I should be listening, but I I feel like we're at the end when she Brought up at the very end of the book which you brought up to termance playing against us sometimes quite a bit with it um so that that Um, I guess it surprised me, but I still felt like I'd say it was like the tip of the iceberg and there's it's just like it's there's It's really kind of horrific. I already knew I've been really sensitive to a lot of like lgb No tea people, which is like really Um, surprising to me how prevalent it is it's gay men Usually white gay men who are not in trans people or don't don't identify and I'm always like this is one war It's like the war against the patriarchy like that you're just because you're gay and she strands or whatever It's the same journey. It's the same fight and so I really felt like when I was reading that one and also the one that was her name was Her name was Africa.

His name was france that that one I really felt like I kind of felt hopeless a little bit the thought provoking I felt like wow we're kind of It's still happening. That was like so long ago. Um, I guess when you think about How far we've come like with women now having the right to vote finally and like everything that's happened It I guess you can see like we make have made progress over the years But it still feels hopeless to me. Um, especially because of our via file chief.

I don't know. I was not provoking very sad very Um Yes I think she's a slow when you're living in it but fast when you look back I think she sort of organized it so she started with some early depressing ones and then it got more hopeful Although then the Pandora one, you know when she was talking about how like we've come forward with trans rights and stuff like that part Was so heartbreaking because like thinking about the way that america rated to react to like the dark airline bathroom bills Around the time she was writing and to now when like trans didn't my state can't go to the bathroom through in school like and trans isn't college like That it's such like, you know basic civil rights are being taken away like it was like it was like it was like we are maybe you know what You know, we were 30 cents in the road now. We're back to like one step So it's even though it's still a little bit of progress. It's still really depressing Um, but I think that's why I think that was structures really good and how she put the essays that were the most part in the middle So that sort of like you had like something else gave you hope in the middle of it So I thought like the way that it was structured and I was like the way that she was mythology and like I thought that was very like both you and janitoria for like also Give you hope and to talk about like how these ideas are really old And I can identify with the hope when she was like and recently a homosexual a gay couple was voted to cutest in their high school year But I remember those little wins, you know, I remember those wins like wow we got to take a point of prom Once you know, I remember that so that it was nice like rest on the hope that that used to have brought me, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I would love to be like we're so naive and I was so vulnerable And recognizing like the moments of like kinship like I really appreciated that she talked about the lgbtqia plus experience being linked to to women having safe space because I've always struggled with like You know, do I as a white mostly cis woman? I will say bye for our purposes Um Do I have the right to be in your safe space as an lgbtqia person? You know, like I don't want to take over your safe space as a white Mostly cis woman, but at the same time Like the kinship and the safety that I felt going to gay bars and being in Those spaces was like a savior to me in a time where I couldn't be out after dark or to be alone out after dark and stuff And so I was like, oh my god, like remembering that it's not just like you were saying it's all the same fight Like it's not just women. It's not just you know lgbtqia.

It's t it's anybody trying to be exactly who they are without The the labels and the things that keep us down and the things that keep us in our place and keep us in our roles that serve these Position the power and yeah, so I was just like yes, we do still have a community together. It's not just women It's lgbtqia plus it's you know, it's all of us that it's men that are feminists. Um, so yeah, I like to stop hard and Well, there's a lot of things that are really depressing and sad and heartbreaking in this book One thing that stood out to me that I just had not really thought about in this context is the fact that less than 40 years ago sexual harassment was not a thing legally and That was just like how many years have we been dealing with this? And it's just been in the last 40 that's been like legally recognized as Something that we're fighting against.

So we have come a long way compared to the centuries before But that makes us that that's even even harder to see sometimes and you know, like we were making all this progress in such a short time And now we're regressing so it's kind of like a you find hope and one thing and then there's also sadness and Heartbreak within that same fact. So it's about finding Finding the positive and pushing that forward. I think Yeah, well put Did we find that the christy? Did you want to say something?

No, I just so I read this when I came out and then I told you friend I was like, I'm gonna listen to it and I listened to the intro again And then I was in the the first chapter Which is just so much about sexual violence and the narrator was so perky while reading it that I was like I can't listen to this so I kind of skimmed but like I'm not fully like we're calling all the things about the book I guess I would say that like um In following solnet online and you know reading her writing and things that she puts forward there like everything that you all are saying Really resonates. I also just have been thinking a lot about like the timing of when this book came out like before the 2016 election Right and I'd worked for a non-profit before that that did a lot of advocacy around sexual violence and direct like representation for survivors and Just how my son just turned 10 and his whole life has been since Trump, right? Like now we're on the second trumpet like this is what he knows and just trying to work through like All of you are saying the ups and downs of like oh we thought that you know We might have a woman president that we thought it again and like no no, but then I see hope because you know we live in a progressive part of Chicago and his elementary school has a um lgbtq kids and allies club and there's like 60 kids in it and You know, he's part of this club and he can tell me like how many states protect protect the rights of lgbtq kids and people And I'm like, you know things are bad But like some things are really good like he's never gonna know being in school and thinking that I'm gonna be in a while Seamas away that that's something that isn't part of his experience So it is just sort of like a time capsule in a way like listening to you know reading her her writing from that time and but it is also Still still resonant like all those things are still so those are my all over the place thoughts about it. Oh, I love that Thank you for reminding my son just turned 10 as well Nice and the same like yeah, and he's very vocally anti-Trump and very like, you know We've we've he hears us talking and we include him in adult conversations and things like that And um, I have had to turn to substitute teaching recently because my normal job in the film industry Has completely dried up work.

That's another story But like it's been so cool to go into the schools and see so many classrooms with an lgbtq Plus safe zone sign right there in front of the door when they come in, you know, it's like Yes, this is this is what we this is what we can be doing Um, this is what we can be doing on the inside the work the underground work the underground railroad work is knowing that you know These kids have a safe place with teachers that are loudly expressing that and I wear my pen when I substitute so that they know You know, you were you were safe with me and so that's really cool seeing that Be created within the classrooms and that's new for me That wasn't a thing when I was in school. So I'm really loving some of those like underground To the patreon key and all of that Great cool. We've kind of moved into the already the question about, you know, how this book relates to your life So does anybody want to add anything about that? On the conversation of hope to have you know working with teams what you said resonates with me both with merit and proceed but Like there is like I do believe the younger generation will save us, you know, because of just the time that we're in the way they grow up how open they are Um You know, I this was probably in 2018 and I was working with I was working in a place called home Which was to teach you theater and this one kid, you know, I said get everybody get up and say your name your pronouns what grade you're in and this freshman Who had this like really was a boy.

He was athletic. He had this really deep voice for a kid And he's like my name's you my pronouns are he him? I place for whatever and it just like rocked me like everybody Everybody's like so open these kids are so open. He didn't hesitate.

He didn't pause and that that made me like open my eyes to how I guess that's where the hope is for me is like maybe things will get better in the next 10 years But then all you know everything's falling apart also. So who knows? I just want to speak on hope and how it relates to our own lives I mean, it's terrible. Yes I was already grabbing myself going into this because I was like I bet every one of you has a story Has a report that you could have made or did have to make or were intimidated out of making And so I was like how the how this relates to your life question.

I was like who you know, like I've got my own shit that I've gone through and like the guy is still working in the industry Which is why I've had to transition out of some of the things I used to do And so I was just like I know everybody's got a whole list of things Just like all of the stories that she just rattles off in the beginning of like it's so prevalent. It is so prevalent So love you all. I'm a safe space if you ever need to talk of your trauma or whatever because I know we've all been through this I was particularly shocked too about how most of her examples in fact, I think all of them were public Were public happy in public spaces or a lot of them happened in public spaces like we started going on about the buses It just was very eye-opening. Um, you know, you see like I don't know whatever it's been our trash.

That's all I think it was I was reading it. You know imagining that someday I hope people can relate to their own lives at all It's also like there's so many instances that like I forgot because there's so many horrible things that happened and like it was like Oh, yeah that and that and how could we forget these terrible things because there's just too many of them our brains can't hold it like You know, we're hearing all the things that terrible things happen everywhere around the world every day And it's awful like it should motivate us all to change it That's why I think kind of lately something that I've realized that is in politics that there are people who are like My perspective is there's something bad as having to me or someone I love I want to make a world where it doesn't happen to anyone ever again And I think in america today there are people who respect it as if something bad as having to me I want to make sure that no one else is anything better than that, you know And like even if they're imagining that though people are having something better than they're not like that's a perspective is just like I don't care what's happening to me. You can't have something better even something bad something to be positive it Which is really depressing You have like pulling up the ladder when it comes to you know, yeah, instead of using what you've been through to spare somebody else So favorite parts of the book um selfishly I was really excited that she delves so much in the Virginia wolf and gave a lot of her excerpts of writing because it's been a while since i've visited Virginia and um, I'll be in the play who's afraid of Virginia wolf next year, so I was like But yeah, I was just it was so nice to hear about like Getting lost as being a way of finding yourself and the anonymity of just kind of walking around in an unfamiliar space Accompass by which to get lost was something I wrote down. I was like, oh god.

That's so good um Yeah, so I was really into the Virginia wolf part and Nice favorite part of the book. I was gonna jump in there and recommend her book a field guide to getting lost by solenate I think that's from 2010 Maybe um, but yeah, it kind of like holds the same Ideas about the walking and being in the world and experiencing the world with your feet Um to like think and do your like interior work and it's honestly like that book blew my mind wide open I've recommended a tutorial although i'm sure she's writing before But that is an incredible book, but that's my favorite song that I can't say on so I really recommend that one Thank you love other favorite parts Okay, well what about the verse of that then what did we hate? What did we not like Other than the things that have already been discussed right? The good things about the wolf essay is that she puts it in contrast to like what sontag Had written and so you see how like she understands it hope is a struggle because I think sometimes it was Yeah, it's like well things are really bad.

I don't want to have hope But like I think she was really good arguing that you should like especially in the last essay and in the wolf essay So I thought she sort of Under she included the arguments against what she was saying. Um, so that you could understand what she was saying more I think and why she was saying it So related but sort of I don't know anyway I always think these days when I think about hope I think of the tarot card the star which is all about hope and the card that proceeds it is the tower which is you know the crumbling lightning striking the tower and the edifice is crumbling and But like in the abstract the tower is something physical and something you can touch Right because it's a building the edifice You know the structures you've built are collapsing and hope is a star that you can't touch that you can only see that only twinkles in the darkness And that hope is really kind of an abstract concept because it's not tangible Excuse me. Um Would you think of the writing? Am I saying buildings are tumbling down?

Yes Okay, I wanted to talk about the Virginia wolf essay and the susan santa except because maybe it's because I haven't read either I've read a room of one zone a long time ago And I don't remember connecting with the writing very much So I felt a little disconnected from that particular essay so I'm glad I'll probably read read that one In light of braces comments about like why you should have hope so I'll probably read that one after after this But I just have never connected so so I found this writing to be so accessible I found so much writing to be really accessible really clear Um, I loved it and I when I was looking her up. I didn't realize she had written so much So, um, thank you for that recommendation to I was looking up on towels. I feel guys getting lost So I think I'll read that too, but I loved her writing. I thought it was really great I just uh, it's like they went down to passage that relates to uh, the stuff said out to me about having help even whenever it seems helpless And it's whenever she's talking about santa she says she was making the case that we should resist on principle Even though it might be futile I had just began trying to make a case for hope and writing and I argue that you don't know if your actions are futile You don't have the memory of the future that the future is indeed dark Which is the best thing that it could be and that in the end we always act in the dark So like just that idea that we don't know what's coming.

We don't know if our efforts are going to make a Impact if they're going to have to uh, intend it outcome, but not to try like It doesn't matter if they're futile or not. You don't know because you don't know if they're people until you try it So, um, that that part really stood out to me whenever I was reading through it too And we're so really good to the question about writing. I just thought I think that the way that things are worded in the book like that are just really beautiful and powerful Thanks You know, we don't we don't know what our actions are going to result and sometimes like you can say something Flip it and offhand and that can affect somebody's life profoundly And be like totally inspirational and they can come back and be like one time you said blah blah blah That changed my life and it's like oh my gosh I had no idea I really appreciate it apart where she talked about you rose and it's opposite Um The word escapes me would have violence and like passion and possession are all rooted in the same thing I kind of noticed that yesterday, you know, we were talking to some dude and he we kind of were like oh, we're good And he got so mad like it turned from like nice friendly to like mad really really quickly And it really hit home that he rose and the violence and the possession and I either wrote, you know, neither love or Like destruction. So yeah, I liked that part a lot Well, I feel like she wrote this.

I mean, I noticed that too as I y'all I only read like the first couple chapters again on this book but that she sort of is like This is before the whole like in self thing was really in the mainstream conversation too, right? I mean like the red pill and the boys being indoctrinated online like what you just said you friend reminds me so much of that And like this is even I think if she write about that really it wasn't even part of our like Popular culture conversation yet. That's what that is right like the entitlement so there was there was a reference to it. It seemed like it was I can't remember if it was one of the later ones maybe in Cassandra the crepes Um or no, it was in yes, I think that was the one where they talked about sexual entitled and how Just in this time right around 2014 that word that phrase was becoming a thing and being recognized Um, so it's like the very beginning of that.

Um, I mean that is like Recognize Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I mean like add to the list of other terrifying things about raising little boys like Just how insidious that is increasing in places and I mean that is one of I think kind of the biggest scariest things when you read these books that it's like Yeah, so how are we talk how do we talk to kids about this? How are we like directly discussing with them? Not just consent but that like what are some of those dynamics that are like, oh walk away from that You know like if you're with someone that behaves that way like that's uh You can't hang out with them And how isolating that can be because it's so prevalent like Yeah, it's our little he doesn't like competitive sports because he doesn't like what that atmosphere brings up in him And that's really hard because like all of his friends are doing basketball baseball Football all of the things and he's had to be like no, that's not really my way So raising a non-toxic male in a society where that is just like so prevalent even like With families that you get along with and you're like they just don't they don't really even see it They're just it's like the gender norms are just there And yeah, it's it's an uphill against the stream sort of a battle So anybody want to add to how the book made you feel?

I mean like you've got we've been talking about you've been talking about that since the beginning But anything to add to that discussion that you feel has been left out I guess um about the structure. Um, it's so the title can I don't know that I think the first time I read it when I picked it up I'm not sure I even knew that they were essays or I guess maybe I thought they were all about things that silly men have said to her Thinking that they knew better and that they were all going to be about that But that viral essay that she starts with like kind of this like humorous anecdote that she tells It's kind of like her way of hooking the reader and then she plunges you in and like the most Bile misogyny things with data and numbers and statistics and everything so she kind of reels you in that way Um, so yeah, I appreciate it that but I think that it's probably better if you know about it going in So you don't have the like the wrong kind of expectation about what you're about to read maybe I thought the same thing that was gonna be like Short essays on like fun like quiffs not quiffs, you know, like I thought it was gonna be a little bit more like hard Based on the fact that it was essays and like the size like how quick quick of a read it was gonna be, you know, so Yeah, I feel like it was just to publish No, go ahead. It was published later. It might have had more of like a trigger warning intro because you could like get going to it from the title It might be really you know, but it contains so but I think that being published when it was and like it might have They might have done more the intro later on or yeah But I was gonna say that um, so I've read several of her later essay collections and usually the titles Aren't like the title of one of the essays, but something that just kind of like a theme that unites all of them And so when I went back to read this I was like, huh did she just pick that one because it was the viral one just to you know Get people to pick it up, but then I started thinking about it and in a way all of the essays So what what's the men's planning phenomenon kind of comes down to is that it's men trying to kind of maybe not silence but kind of you know, dismissing a woman's point of view And all of the essays are kind of about that how women's issues whether it be domestic violence or sexual violence or you name it Whatever like the erasure in the family tree is kind of swept under the rug and not given the importance that it should be And that's why if you look at the wolf I say is like the thesis of the book which is like There are things that are inexplicable and that's good like that's what the thesis of the book is the opposite of the title that you know It's not that it's better for women to explain things.

It's better for us all to work together to make a better future out of the inexplicable So then it's sort of like the thesis of the book is the opposite of the title so I think in that way it works too because the otherwise It's like they were just trying to make people pick it up. I mean you do just want to heal pick it up and then yeah Learn from it. So I think that the title since it was catchy, but We also have to wonder how much of a of A choice she had in the title that may have been a publisher's insistence that they wanted to call it after the viral essay because it was a viral essay And they're like well, it's not gonna sell unless we call it something like this I think they're also trying to make it really accessible to people because like it's seven dollars in the bookstore at least the bookstore I saw it so it's you know affordable and small so they want to you know get lots of people take it up and you know get it So it's no idea. So I think in that way, I hope it worked Did this is very something that's 101 in that way Yeah, it's not like very it's kind of superficial.

I've got to say so if I've got like one poem with it It's gonna be that like even like the title I say as an example Yeah, it's a funny anecdote and she makes a clear point for why it's a problem But she doesn't really offer like she doesn't even have a theory of why men might be doing that or what we can do to stop them doing that So she doesn't really offer a solution. She just highlights the problem You know I mean yeah, because gaming it doesn't really fix it because people are just like sorry if I'm man-splitting button they keep doing it I feel like it. Oh, go ahead. Belly.

I was just looking back. It was something that whenever I was looking at the The not the title page but the one with the copyright information everything on it It talks about special discounts being available for both purchases going back to making it accessible and widely available You can have both discounts for purchases by organizations and institutions It also says that it was published with a generous support of the Landon Foundation and the Wallace Action Fund And it was printed in Canada by Union Labor. So it sounds like As far as influence over the title and everything that maybe they were trying to use that to To get it to sell but it was also maybe not the purpose to make a lot of money But to get the words out there and to get the the essays available to people I whenever I was looking back at that page earlier And trying to see if there was an updated copyright data. I know this doesn't I just kind of stood out to you too Now that's what Haymarket Books is a activist I think possibly an artist Um, public publishing publishing companies So they you know try to make their books really widely available and like they give books away a lot of things like that Like I've gotten like multiple free books from them of things Instead of this book remind you of any other books I've read a lot of feminist essay books like especially those ones where it's like different essays from different feminists Um, so in that ways it seemed really familiar and that's I think I think I I think I've even heard writing proof as I read it So at first when I was just kind of like, you know, it's suppressing stuff.

I already know Um, I would kind of go with just like all those but I think it improved as it went on and like offered up hope But there are a lot of them as the elections that are sort of similarly organized and sort of same idea The structure of Tory almost is resistance I was gonna say this came out. I think the same year as bad feminist the rexing gave up great I'm googling it. It looks like it's done and I felt like that was another one that was like I don't know in my circles like pretty big we were reading in book clubs and um in a similar way like has some stories I think of sexual violence and Her personal experience and then also a lot of other things in that book. I haven't read it all in time, but I can't believe that was 10 years ago.

What? Anything to add about the title relating to its content, I mean we kind of talked about that already but if there's any Last thoughts on that? No last thoughts on that anything you would change I really like what Tanya said about she's not offering a solution and I was thinking about the there's a couple of times in the book where there's one that's sticking in my mind where On campus they were telling girls not to say it after dark and the flip side I was telling them not to come out You know like and how shocking that was um, I would have liked I don't know that there's a solution I don't think it's up to her to provide a solution either um by herself, but like I don't know I don't even know what the solution would be I guess that that is my qualmative too is that like um I like an actionable you know an actionable list like okay We identified the problem let's fix it let's solve it somehow Um And maybe because there wasn't that that let's a little bit of that hopelessness feeling Um because when you're when you just have that amount of like rap but not really a way to like sift through it or like to solve it I think that maybe that's what I would change is like maybe there maybe one essay on how to make it better Well, what actionable sets that we the people can do, you know, it seems like she maybe thinks that just you know speaking out about what's happening Is doing something like with the title essay and with hashtag yes all women like I think she wants to you Bring out what's been hidden and talk about it. I think she also is kind of trying to Make it so that herses can apply to a lot of situations.

That's why she prescribed specific solutions You know, I think she thinks hope is actually maybe too is what we love her ideas and writing it I don't know if it's not like I grant like specific things that's why she's like In this my friend guess what I'm not sure but when she was talking about the thing about not going out at night and she talks So people starting to slap walks um and she talks It seems like a lot of her activism in the past because when she talks about like how she was trying to shut down the nuclear test sites And it didn't shut down the nuclear test site in Nevada, but it shot went down in another country Because you know people were inspired by it Yeah, but I would like more grounded specific things you can do too I think that's like again. I haven't worked in the space in over 10 years But I think it has always been kind of a problem in advocacy around sexual violence because it is so overwhelming that We heard this a lot right like so what do you want me to do about it? And it's like we'll give money tell these stories and I think the moment that she is You know advocate for laws that hold people accountable Um at the moment when she is writing this I had of me too I think it was part of this like well if we all start telling our stories and if we power more people to tell Not even just personal stories, but to like spread the word that that's gonna make a difference And I think what's so hard right now is that we see the limitations of that right like a lot of people have shared all this Crazy news. I remember specifically that I was working at this that nonprofit when I forget the guys named akin When the guy was like oh a body woman's body just as a way of shutting that whole thing down If she sexually assaulted she won't get pregnant and I remember going to my boss and I was like do people actually believe him?

Do people think that and she's like yeah people do you like he might believe it? You might actually believe it so I feel like probably fewer people would believe that now but also just like You know not to segue into the Tory part of it, but it's like what is the value of everyone telling their story if Like how much changes that leading to or what are the actionable parts of that? Like I feel like there is still kind of a reckoning happening around Me too and even like the kinds of like litany sharing of incidents that that's all that doesn't this so And still so really these consequences and like the people in power like are the people been doing already know what's happening too? And they are not gonna stop what they're doing.

You know, so much everyone else makes some face consequences They're not instead, you know, people are shifting their views about what is essay and what is in like to defend the obscene stuff like And to you know every time I destroy they're like well, you know, there's people who are whenever a celebrity is accused of domestic violence or sexual assault There's people like well, I believe women but in this case like with every single one of those men they have a but it's like okay, you don't actually teach women you Hopefully if anyone Then I think it's okay, but I'm sorry but it's very the part where she talks about Freud It being easier for Freud to believe that these things were the women lacking or wanting this sexual assault then it was to comprehend that this many women had these many problems with relatives neighbors grandfathers uncle like what so there was something really For found about that of like it's much easier to believe it's women making it up Then that all of this can actually be true within a human being and these actions can actually come out of a person onto their loved one Etc I think in that particular quote with a women have a if it's real great women have a way of shutting that down I give less. I don't think he believes it I think he's spitting a narrative that will give everyone plausible to die of ability and also himself And I think you know, you know, I I think he knows that's not true And I think I think they know it's not true, but they don't care and that and it gives them a way to To live with what they do, you know, and I really don't give the grace that he thinks that that's true I think that it's just something he's saying and I heard the story I saw Robert what's his name? Robert F Kennedy jr. Talk about the the Girls are now maturing younger.

Did you know I'm talking about how they're hitting puberty four years younger yet boys sexual maturity is four years later And I'm like you're trying to set the scene that older men are the right age to To reproduce with young girls like you're I could see you saying the stage for that and that's it's like spitting this narrative. It's like making it sort of It's like, you know, it's like a dog whistle to other predators and so I feel like that's what that was as well So 100% the thing that's spinning around right now. Have you ever heard under age boys or underage men? No, you've heard underage women, but you've never heard underage men.

So yeah, that's just for us And like a guy who does a crime a white boy who does a crime is like a boy until he's like 35 But you know Right and even boys will be boys when they are men so And then you had the opposite of that too when adult women are called girls or it's all about the perspective Am I trying to make you more accessible to me to call you something older than you are? Am I trying to demean you and make you younger than you are so that I have more power over you? It's so Which whichever way suits the best in a moment is what I'm the way I'm better refer to you and think of you It doesn't really matter what your age is. It's all in my head.

That's what matters I love this discussion and I think you know to sum it up Are the issue the thing we would change is that this is not a solution oriented Work of art. It's just a like a problem oriented and you know at the time it came out that maybe that was Something we needed more of like this is a report on the problem And we're in a stage where we need and we want to be solution oriented where we want here's the here's the problem and here's A multifaceted approach to how we can address this problem Not just here's the problem like I know this is a problem. I know this is a problem I've been fighting this problem since I was an underage girl underage woman Right our whole lives some of us have been dealing with this issue um Anybody want to share highlights they our passages they highlighted Which is this idea that we kind of stumbled upon You're you're all probably very aware of that I'm Stumbling of onto right now is this idea like the gender language the underage women that never occurred to me That's what people say. I mean I guess I had occurred to me But has anyone read the alphabet versus the goddess which I've had on my shelf for 20 years and we've never read Which is about like the way When alphabetic writing was when we were starting to write an alphabet We went from our right brain thinking to our left brain thinking to create that system and therefore patriarchal systems shifted away from women Or systems shifted away from the matriches of the patriarchy.

That's all that I know about it because I haven't actually read it Um, so I'm like I'm not trying to explain it like the guy at the beginning of the book I'm just saying it feels like that that book would help me understand this thing that I've just stumbled upon which is This very sexist language. It's just like it's like the base of everything. So I'm gonna be that one too That's what is my man. Are you kidding me?

Hold on. I'm gonna go grab it. I'll grab it I that Efas bringing this out because you know Obviously this discussion is still needed, you know, right because I mean And I wonder how many women are living this this realization that we watched ephraim in real time come to the like, oh, hey That that that is a problem. You know what I mean?

And so the problem orientation or the awareness Let's call it the problem orientation. Let's call it awareness books are still needed in this world And they're still needed in a way that like the title grabs us and it's like, oh, maybe I should read that man Explain thanks to me. Haha. That was a good essay and then holy shit.

This is going on because there are You know, there's a whole other part of the society that doesn't experience the same things that you know young women experience or excuse me underage underage females experience um passages oh The emotional bandwidth that's spent on us calculating shit like Walking to the car with keys or having some sort of weapon or you just the awareness that we have to have and like that never Has to be done by certain men, you know, and like Yeah, it's like what what what could we become if that emotional bandwidth and energy was not spent on all of that A badass. That's what we become so I wrote down several things that I thought were just like very beautiful and poetic in one sentence. Um, credibility is a basic survival tool Um women being told they are not a reliable witness to their own lives Um Violence doesn't have a race class culture, but it does have a gender Who has the right to kill you? I like sat there for at least 20 minutes thinking about that question who has the right to kill you?

I was like, oh my god Um, this one I got stars around so this will be my last one mystery is the capacity of something to keep becoming Those are great. Thank you, marin. Of course I have one from the wolf chapter page 88 Uh despair is a form of certainty certainty that the future will be a lot like a president or will decline from it despair is a confident memory of the future And condolences resonant phrase optimism is similar confident about what will happen both our grounds were not acting hope can be the knowledge that we don't have the memory And that really doesn't necessarily match our plans. Hope like creative ability can come from a romantic poet John Keith's called negative capability Um, which is when a man is capable of being on of being in uncertainties and mysteries doubts without any irritable reaching after fact and reason Nice Any other highlights quotes that people want to share?

One passage it's one of our first week at all Um, but it's the the part and Cassandra's among the crepes where she talks about the concentric rings of silence When someone is trying to speak out of who tells their story first you're trying to find your own voice to even Be brave enough or strong enough to tell your story And then the next ring is everyone bullying you and trying to keep you silent everyone Trying to keep your words From explaining your mouth and being in existence and then the third one is people saying well You're remembering that wrong where you're that's not what really happened twisting your words to against you And if you have that data version that was on page 107 But those those sections about just how much You have to find to get out of those rings of silence when you are trying to share your experience Um, three things that you're fighting against trying it is very exhausting It's exhausting to keep on trying to fight against the silence whenever um, whenever you're finally brave enough to share And i'm going to put forth the thought that it's not just about Essay that anytime you have to share something that's uncomfortable You have to go through those concentric rings of silence and you know people shutting you down Because it requires that other people do something out of their comfort zone to make a change Or it just requires that people do something Any other quotes highlights? I've got one that kind of ties into that the one that's um, Valerie just read Um, so I highlighted the ability to tell your own story in words or images is already a victory already a revolt Nice. That's a good one So how do we see the influence of this work on on Tory's body of work? Going back to the same idea of silence.

I I obviously two different Uh types of work that both spoke about silence as far as like silent all these years Um, I I had before you she even got to that section I felt a lot of similarity between that chapter that essay and silent all these years me and i gone and Tory's stories that she shared through song um I thought it was um not coincident. I don't know the word i'm looking for but very Reinforcing that that I give it two different artists in two different ways two different times in their lives Related to the same idea of silence and being able to uh try to break free of that. I thought that there was a lot of other laws For me like it had me thinking about Tory not reporting her her assault because I think about that a lot and I think that Sometimes I forget How little time had passed since women were even given like the right not given fought for the right to vote in one and She talks about after she was born like it women could have their own credit cards So even this author was born in a time where marriage still dictated your power or lack there of as a woman And so then I get to thinking about when Tory was assaulted and that time of of of history And i'm like she was only like A decade away from women being able to have their own credit card. Of course she didn't say anything You know and I was never like why didn't you Tory?

But I just just thinking about it because we do perceive her as so strong and so vocal about the things that have happened to her and about the patriarchy and All of it so I always you know Try to Delve into that and I can totally It made so much sense to me. I'm like of course not like when you're only 10 years out from women having been able to have their credit card and you're assaulted in that way The the idea of anybody believing you were listening to you or any of it. I totally got it totally Can you remind me where that credit card? I remember it too, but where did that come up?

It's kind of in the beginning I tend to believe that women acquired their status of human beings page six When these kinds of facts started to be taken seriously and legally from the mid-1970s on well after her birth So Yeah, I was I was thinking a lot about Tory in that moment of just like oh my god That was there was so few years in between when they actually even started prosecuting sexual assault cases in this country to when it happened to her So my Tory thoughts were mostly about how I think this would really resonate with her because of the way that Selma writes about Art I think that really speaks to Tory like I think she thinks about it in the same way that she does But also I thought oh, she's really gonna like see herself in that title essay Thinking back to all the suits that told her how little earthquakes had to be and you have to replace the piano with guitars and even under the pink Oh, we're gonna do have this guy do the string arrangements and then she had to go in and delete them So they wouldn't like ruin her songs and I think she would really like it would Really talk about her experience in the music industry I think and what someone said actually made me think of this hadn't occurred to me But just about the importance of like maybe the point is to put these stories out there So people will feel empowered to tell their own stories and that made me think of how Tory wrote me in a gun after seeing the land louis So another work of art empowered her to tell her own story and then Tory's song empowered so many people that I know to talk about their results Okay Well, that's the story about not being believed it also goes into like how when everyone tells you something's not real like it's hard to believe It's you know, that's why we're part of probably why she repressed it for you know Five years till she thought saw them in the ways it's because like the rings of silence like are so insidious on your own psyche It's not just you know like how many times do you say something and not be believed like it's you know It takes a lot of tenacity to keep believing yourself or at least telling people and not just keeping it yourself after that The very beginning passage on like page two Or and three when the guy is describing her own book to her and still not getting it that reminded me so much I can't remember if it was legs and boots or if it was the beekeeper to her live boots as well But there was a she was in England. She was playing a cover of I lost it Champagne supernova who did that? It was the more a story. Thank you She was doing a cover of an oasis song Don't look back at anger and she was like they're from around here and people were shouting out She's like no, it's not the Smith's I saw him one time coming out of his concert and she was like Hey really great records man, and he was like fuck you or whatever and she's like who are you trying to sell records to America?

You small dick fuck So with this little life improv she does and I'm like it's totally this guy in the music industry thinking like here's just some fangirl Telling me I did great songs and it's like no, this is totally fucking Amos telling you you wrote some great songs like pay attention I was at that show Manchester 5 You know, I knew you know it was terrifying when she said you small dick motherfuckers She like turned to the audience and like got this like tough voice out you can hear in the bootleg. It just freaked out I was so young. I was like, oh why is she yelling? I mean, I mean it was funny when I listened to it, but she pulled so far back on the mic I couldn't even hear what she said, but I was really aggressive and I never seen her like that This was pre-pit so whatever it was scary.

Yeah So does anybody have the quote Andy where she talks about this book? I looked at it just last night I can pull it out. There's I know that she mentioned how it understood her experience in the music industry Because I was really interested, you know, I mean if it comes out 2014 then she's probably reading it after unrepentant Geraldine So there's like a specific, you know, I'm thinking well, maybe 29 years is influenced by this a little bit It was in an interview in either 20 or 20 or 21 when she was recommending like her recommended reading list And the quote that is included here is Rebecca Seldin's Minn explained things to me Not only underscored my experience as a female singer-songwriter in the music industry But probably bring true for most women globally. I wish I could have written any of her books So I think the question for that was what books you wish you'd written And that was her response Yeah, it was the Guardian interview from 2020 the same one which she recommended giving up the ghost Nice.

Thank you. Um, I know we have a recommendation for at least one book, but would you read anything else by um, Solnit? I see nodding heads For those listening to audio, there were a bunch of heads nodding and a thumbs up Maybe I just listened to a lot of radio that I think of doing stuff like that Um, does she only write nonfiction? Right Like I'm writing And it sounded like she like sort of started out as an actress primarily is that the case where you've read up her work, Tanya And then she sort of started writing about it.

Yeah, and she was like an art critic or she worked in like the art world So she writes about like she weaves that in a lot So I've read a bunch of her essay collections I've read um a field guides to getting lost and wonder lost the history of walking Which is kind of similar but I prefer to feel guides to getting lost And I've read her autobiography that came out during the pandemic. I think that was pretty recent So yeah, she she's lived all over the place like mostly like San Francisco It's like she's got very like deep ties to San Francisco to city and American Southwest. So yeah, it's really interesting So last question is there um, how much did you know about the book before reading it or did we just read it because Tori recommended it? And we're doing this for book club I would say like social media posted by her and they were always like interesting You know like suggested things of people things other people would share So I think I do like a little bit about her enough to know that I probably like it I knew nothing But now I know something I knew nothing either but I feel like the title sort of prepared I mean in terms of like that it was a nonfiction and in terms of that it was going to be sort of a piece of feminist writing I knew I felt like the title gave that away, but I didn't know anything going into That was the same for me.

I think I probably heard of it before but not really even thought about it Um, and I have read more in the last three months because it was book club than I have in the last three years probably So I am um, I used to read voraciously and would have probably read this at one point But it's I took a long break from reading in literature So I'm glad to be back into it But uh, this is my first nonfiction in a long time too. It's not really gonna work really too much that Yeah, that's exciting. I'm trying to remember why I picked it up back in the like 10 years ago And I think it was just like really hyped up. I think this was like a really big book at the time Same with like bad feminists I um, rooks in um, so I think it was just like I I wasn't my baby feminist face You know, still in college and was kind of getting interested in it So I was just you know, it was all over the place.

I thought I should read this too. Everyone's talking about it So yeah, I'm glad it was my first touching point with her writing and I've been reading her consistently in the past 10 years So yeah, I see this reminds me of something that like I would have read in college Oh 25 years ago. Oh my gosh Like starting in middle school. I was like early until I came to state collection so I read so many of them And like actually the reason I got what I asked for a gun tutorial I got out one of those books with like bunch of interviews essay style interviews of women and music and like because of that I got into so many other people in music.

So I really love them so into them Thanks. Sorry Rose I often think like how the hell does she have time to do any of this reading like, you know, like I just how does anybody that's in the public eye and making albums and stuff have any time for any of that She has to have her gleaning stage for writing So that's true. That's why and I think she prefers to stick with nonfiction for that because she doesn't want to like borrow for Oh, and also art which yeah, I've got why she loves so many but I think that that's why she doesn't read that much fiction Because she doesn't want to actually borrow from other art probably She strikes me as an artist that is a burst artist Not a not a you know, they're not doing art all the time like okay Yeah, she's playing the piano every day because you know, it's a muscle you have to keep active But yeah, she strikes me as somebody who's like when they're creating they're like In that creative mode. Yeah, it's like it concentrated huh?

And who also doesn't engage in any kind of social media There it is. Yeah, there's your free time right there I was also gonna say solna is very active on facebook And she does not allow everyone to comment It's like people who I think she must have followed her early or that she knows but I mean she posts I would say probably multiple times a day sometimes and I feel like most of what I've written from her is she will just post champs of this she's written before too She'll be like I've heard about this 10 years ago. Oh, yeah But it's fun to follow her here her there like she posts other people's stuff too If you don't follow her facebook posts are supposed to be a lot I'm always seeing them instead of people I follow Which is why I probably like them. That's why I keep saying them.

That's good. You're on the right algorithm They have not on the right algorithm. I'm like oh, she's on facebook So any last thoughts any summations Before we vote on next month's book I don't know if anybody else goes through this but like Even though this was written in 2014 and many of the stories albums came out before then like I just they're just certain passages that bring up lyrics and songs like laundry scene and beauty queen and girl disappearing when she's talking about the elimination of The grandmother and so I just like I put little tabs on the sides and I won't suffer you all for them but like Flickr I want to hear all of them Give us more Flickr on page 106 talking about you know being in danger when you tell your story and Um, what else do I have of Tory thought I had a witness page seven Um Women must be out there on the seven billion person planet being told that they're not reliable witnesses to their own lives And I'm almost like oh, that's very thought I had a witness Um What your mind works I was thinking about you. You're like, I don't know why I picked up this book.

I'm like because you're brilliant and well read and All of these things um page Three agent orange Um The tan man with his I think that's what she said. So remember so I don't know what I was thinking there, but there was something about a guy being Tan and smiling or something And it reminded me of agent orange The let's see more carbon Um page 99 beneath it is all dark. It is all spreading It is unfathomably deep but now and again we rise to the surface and that is what you see us by her horizon seem to her limitless So carbon keep your eyes on her horizon Yeah If when if right you read my book You're gonna need like extra tabs Just FYI because it's just peppered throughout Yeah, go get another one. Here's a question.

Do we think soul knit listen to Tory because like That could the influence could go both ways. I have no idea. I wondered that I went to that especially like whenever I got to the Cassandra chapters and Tory was even mythology and her work too so much that Of course, there's a ton of artists that uh the get uh inspiration from that But it seemed like it was a very likely possibility that Tory could have been an influence for her as well as opposite The interesting to find out From what I remember from her autobiography. So she was really like she when she was young and in college in San Francisco She wasn't the punk scene So I don't know how much to like for She was really into punk So why can't Tory read them?

There you go It's funny. There was this theater here in town That did a show called the Dobby punk that was set in uh l.a. In the punk scene in the late 80s And they had this like photo exhibit by Teresa Curiocca I think and she had a bunch of old like from the roxy and literally around the time of why can't we read and there was like Maybe 50 pictures of like big group scenes and me scouring every single one just to see in the crowd in the background just to see Wasn't in any of them but like silly would have been cool. Well, funny Should we vote?

Yes. Okay. I put all of the um suggestions in the document and there's a lot there's 20 or 21 even Um, did you get my uh recommendation? Mm-hmm.

I think I had it in the um, I already had it in a survey But I forgot to put the description so now I have the description even though we all know what it is So if anybody wants to advocate for anything, I know we had said something Last month because that it was gonna be winter and this what this other book was sent much of I couldn't remember what book that was Well, yeah, I love the dark is rising because tory is it That's all this and it's that drinks all this So we have an advocacy advocacy for the dark is rising Also anyone's been here to silver. It's sort of a kid's book. So it's probably not as complicated read a smutter books I haven't read it since like probably middle school or high school that I was really into it in like a fourth grade Which book the dark is rising was was one of my favorite books in like late elementary and middle school So I was saying it's if anyone wants a simpler book for December because they're busy. It is written for kids Oh, it does you with like Celtic mythology and king art and stuff like that It's the one that you would recommend reading the order since it's a kid's book Like if we put on that one reading the ones that came before it So the dark is rising the second book in the series There's All the characters come together eventually, but the first there's only one character carryover between the first book in the second book I still if you have time I'd recommend reading them in order The first book is set in Cornwall in the summer.

It's sort of like a quest for a holy grail type thing But you don't have to read first. I would say also if we chose it do not watch the movie They like made the main character american and did all this weird stuff. Wait, is this the one who did the hunger games? No, no, no No, she um if anyone read her temporary books.

I feel like her book the bogart Which was about this like bogart that like was in the internet was sort of also more popular in the early 90s when kids It was like, you know one of the first books uses the internet How many of the darkest rising are there? Totally five five. Yeah, but I think we'd only read either the titular book or possibly the only two already the first two Okay, anybody else want to have a kid for anything else before we vote is there anybody who wants to? Push their agenda I've loved everything we've picked so i'm not worried me to accept for there was one that it was very difficult for me to get through I can't remember lord of the rings No Yes, but no, I enjoyed that to a degree The goddesses and every woman that's the one that's right That was a difficult one Let's see we have so on the list we have the new ones are wicked by Gregory's require great expectations by charles dickens shop That wasn't already on there Beauty queen by liveah bray and then we have the shamanic life of the bee the blood of others Dracula Paradise lost step in wolf story.

Oh, the unbelief i feel bad about my neck white tea just kids The mythic dimension the complete tales and poems of edral and po Landmarks the gospel of mary nagdalene growing up by russel baker the dark is rising Which we just talked about king solvents lines and bringers of the dawn for people's sake All right, i'm launching a poll. Oh, it's my favorite part And I can't vote once again It's not set that way, but I can see things rolling One person needs to vote. Okay. Everybody ready?

Yes from all So excited. This is the one moment I know when no one else knows I'm sure results Our book for next month is the dark is rising by Susan Cooper Five out of six and I would have voted for that one too. So six out of seven. Um, I'm so we're reading the second one That's the one it's old.

It's not really you don't have to read the first book. There's just um This like wisely man character who continues between them Excellent. Um, let me see make sure there's an audio book the dark is rising December 27th. Oh, can we all do that day?

Is that good for everybody? Yeah, I clear my calendar for you Thank you. I don't have anything to find out that far enough. So probably I was there was a feeling Deepen except for It was good.

How was yours? Mine was good. My friend jack who was our graphic artist he um, his husband took the Cuban style turkey Which is like Had a little tea to it. Oh, and the best stuffing I've ever had in my entire life was like a very Uh, different texture to what I know known to know to be stuffing But yeah, it was really good and we had a thousand dollar cake Made by the bare feet of the barefoot contestant herself and had its own seat on the plane Wild I didn't pay for it.

Just a little Yeah I did well see. I didn't know she was I guess her name is Aina something Yeah, he heard me the cake. Yeah. Yeah, she's I guess my friend jack's friend who lives in somewhere His friends with her and brought the cake with them on the plane I know what's that?

I don't take it. I think yeah, I don't see Otherwise, I guess we're gonna smoosh Yeah, I don't whole seat, but how was it these rich people? Yeah, how they live I hear you. I hear you talking a lot about like the process of getting there, but not how amazing it was No, it's fine.

Okay. Okay. Okay. I don't eat cake normally I had resigned myself eating dairy that day, but like No, I'm not with that Like but like yellow it was like vanilla Random thing I've ever heard it was fine.

It was I mean it was beautiful and it was like purpley pinky Frosting I sing I guess but yeah, yeah, it was I mean it was fine Like if it were if I were paying that much for a piece of cake It had better be like, you know, I want to rub this one over my body. Oh everybody else loved it Everybody else was like super You know, and then I stepped out onto the patio this beautiful Hollywood Hills home And I was like there's nothing I could ever do that's gonna get me this like luxury in my life So I was just enjoying it. It was like, I don't know but you do have that luxury because you're friends with those people That's a good point. I gotta buy the cake so A piece of the pie.

Oh, yeah, how was everybody else's saying? Since we last spoke Finland got changed Who's going to Finland now? So don't have tickets because I don't like the ones that are available and hoping something better comes up in December Ladies that there were none available They haven't given us our new tickets yet So I assume like once they go through because I think they were not for everyone could bought one originally And then they're gonna go through and give us tickets which they haven't done yet I was hoping to be this week and then the ones who canceled will become available I think they would have reserved once everybody go back No, it looked like they reserved like the whole floor was not stale and like most of the closest sections I'm gonna say I'm not counting on it until mid December the email or the floor at the end said something about December 13th 15th something like that But it was November 23rd So it depends if they wait until all at once I just know I'm gonna get lost in the shuffle the one time I decide to be adventurous and be like I can do you're up And they're like bitch not this location I'm like, will they ever like knowing ticket master? I'm like they're not gonna get back to me Yeah, we transferred your ticket over.

What are the chances will be third row? I buy that Scandinavia is very like organized. They're not things like that Like they'll get back to you by personal name Middle texas you know I think it's just shame though. Is that venue like the one she originally played?

It was next to flame is the same one that she played in 2015 twice So when when they announced that show I was like, really that venue just one show She hasn't been back in 10 years and back then she did two and sold both of them out like immediately Something's not right and now they upgraded the venue to some fucking hockey arena That theater's like architect really important and then it's like half of a hockey ring and they said they're gonna make it intimate with curtains I don't buy it. I also I've gotten first row for villainy. So I got moved to fourth row Although technically my fourth row seat was sold for more so maybe I should have a better view With curtains that's a big name fucking tour Uh that's good. I didn't see that grace.

Thank you for saying that. That'd be my day Does the tour have an aim besides the end times of dragon's tour? Yeah, into my with curtains I'll call it winter spoon. Don't worry.

I got this. Oh gosh. He'll talk to me One of the little people I like these with curtains that we know, you know collectively colloquially Yeah, that'd be the name of art. Sure.

Yeah, to sure Well, anything else about Tory or anything that we want to talk about Did anyone see that casting call that went out for the album arts because they're shooting it right now Like it was November 28th to 30th. So it's probably happening as we speak Karen bins doing her magic But I can't do I can't do back up in your album cover heart. I was this close to a plane Reddy redji doradi our friend applied for the gay witch Somebody for the gay witch. So I was like, please Like even to the rejection or anything.

I will find out Because a friend of hollies also a Coalition or just filled out the form. I guess and I she thought he didn't hear back like at all either But that was like a week ago. So I wasn't sure how short notice it would be How did I get out there? I think it got posted so people would apply for it, right?

I feel like it wasn't meant for fans to see I feel like it was an I know it wasn't They changed it like after it like got out and into the fan forums like the Names of the characters and the descriptions changed today took off what artist it was gonna be for So it wasn't really like it was spoilers like that We were not meant to know that much about like the characters of this album yet Yeah, it's somewhat fun. I like TV news like someone got a mapper ball with these inside And that's how you know it was coming on a TV show Yes, Valerie. He got a proper ball looking for it I don't think so. I feel like she might not even know it had been leaked or I got no No, the person that did it said that they got in trouble for it.

Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, well What did you say? Sorry?

I was saying I've just felt like TV spoilers because things like that were always how you would get TV spoilers like the casting sides back in the day Do you think it was for artwork or for a video or both? It's sad for us a real photo project I'm guessing all the parts it might you know the It was giving gold dust Yeah, which is not because I want my money to go because it's probably the worst thing she's ever done But that got us a video too Labor I'd say I was giving flavor for sure. It was giving uh midwinter graces to me I love midwinter graces Elbemarq, Elbemarq. Even that I was like reflecting on it She's like there's a family project because we're doing a handlecup.

No, no We're doing polyibian rose and that's where tosh sings with her And she's like it was a family project. My husband helped me make it. My daughter's got to sing No, she's got to sing even my nephew's on the gober. She seemed so proud of it I was like, oh, I love midwinter graces.

I think they're all the gorgeous and christmassy in ethereal I love it everybody's like she looks like a corpse. I'm like no She doesn't look like an ethereal angel type Be like yeah, if anyone talks around this door, please tell her she needs to release it on vinyl That's all it would be nice to play on vinyl for Christmas. Yeah She's like what midwinter what She has to acquire girl and scarlets or chains are between sequi girl being this first I think people are gonna riot if she puts out midwinter graces on vinyl before her re-ish is quite a girl Now she must I think it would be great. I think It makes more sense to me that I just know that we're never gonna seek wire girl and Venus is like sequentially i don't think it's fit because of detour right in the middle it doesn't fit right I'm gonna sequence it right.

She responded though. Do you want to hear it? Yes. I said hey, did you hear back in the casting notice?

Oh, he said no, I'm assuming I wasn't gay enough for which you know Well You know yesterday I messaged holly and I told her you know if you're out in about in london this weekend keep an eye out for gay witches and vampires and gasoline girls And she was just like that's just my friends Just all of my friends Door and jaggy like in 2002 fat salt or are you shooting fairytale in LA? They just like happened upon her and that's something I'm like a lot of behind the scenes photos taken from like the sidewalk Those are door and jaggy like that's wild. You know that is wild Okay, everybody this was fantastic. Thank you for listening if you're listening we're gonna meet again December 27th two days after xmas Cool last thoughts I love you guys.

Yeah, this is fun. The dark is rising book two feel free to read book one if you want to I probably will Just so I don't wait to miss anything, but dark is rising book two great. Okay. Yeah to the library The library have fun Never shut up is a production of a sideways society for more information and links to things mentioned on the show Please visit us online at songatorianus.com.

Yes. I know what you think of me You never shut up