97 - The Cruel Prince by Holly Black (w Paige Lavoie)

I'm Robin Onan, and this is Zero Finazist, the podcast for fans of everything. Welcome. Today, I'm joined by Paige LaVoy to discuss the young adult fantasy novel, The Cruel Prince, by Holly Black. We talk about the differences between high and low fantasy, the setting of the fake realm, and our reactions to the dark tone of the story.

The novel is very well written, and it was a good time talking about it with Paige, as always. On to the discussion. I'm here with Paige LaVoy for more blabbing about books. Whoop, whoop, whoop, Paige, how are you?

I'm good. I'm excited to talk about this one. Yeah, it'll be fun. It'll be fun time we're talking about The Cruel Prince, by Holly Black, book one of the folk of the air series.

I believe book two literally came out like what this January, past January. Yeah, and then there's a third that doesn't come out until next July, Queen of Nothing, which I'm like, I haven't even read the second one yet. And I'm like, what does that mean? I'm not.

I don't even want to hazard a guess, honestly, because my guess is like probably wrong. The Cruel Prince is a YA fantasy, correct? Yeah, I think high fantasy, right? I'm not, I think, I mean, there's magic in it, and there's fairy creatures, so I assume it's high fantasy.

You know, low fantasy is going to be like, hey, there's humans mostly, and maybe like a troll or a dragon. One single troll, any more than one troll that's hidden in the middle of fantasy. That's a strange thing that they've never heard the term middle fantasy, even though you think that would make sense, because there's low and then there's high, you think there's room in the middle somewhere. It sounds like we're starting, we're starting a genre.

I mean, it's a book about literally just two trolls in a bunch of humans. That's actually really good. It's a two troll, it's a buddy comedy with two trolls in a world that they feel isolated. Let's see, the Cruel Prince, we are, we are, I think, I'm noticing a trend in all the books are reading page.

Okay, we love murder. They love murder. There's so much murder, so much. The Christmas Jordanite is the lone...

I don't know, I don't know if you read the epilogue. Oh, no, the lone exception. I was, I didn't know what to expect, honestly. I don't read a bunch of fantasy, but you know, I read a sum, not a lot, not, I would not call myself like a fantasy expert.

You honestly mean either. Have you read any other YA fantasy? Oh, God. Not recently, no.

Oh, you know what? Yes, that's a lie. I read Shadow Song, was that? I'm looking at my bookshelf right now, and I'm just like, what?

Please, bookshelf tell me. Yeah, bookshelf. I don't see it up there. You know what?

I'm pretty sure it's called Shadow Song. It's like a labyrinth retelling. It's part of the Winter Song series. Yes, it maybe it was Winter Song and the second one is Shadow Song, and I haven't read the second one yet.

Winter Song, yep. And that is, it also goblins and fairies and creatures, so not really similar in the world building. This was definitely, I feel like, a deeper dive, but both of them kind of still had some, I don't know, similar in the descriptions of like the fancy dresses and the food and stuff like that, you know, the fantasy stuff, where everyone is just eating bread and honey and berries and weird cheese. That's how you know you're in a fantasy novel.

That sounds like they just made tea out of branches. That doesn't sound very good. I don't, yeah, I read, I haven't read a lot of fantasy. I just read some, mostly like the giant, you know, I've read Tolkien and George RR Martin.

So those are, that's what I've got to compare this to. I mean, I'm familiar with the Fae Realm, mostly from DD, which not from reading anything, but from just like, Hey, my character went to the Fae Realm and everything is weird here, and don't get into any bargains. Yeah, my last dandy character, it was for like one-off campaign, but I was a little crazy fae character. It was very fine.

Right. And that's where, that's, and apparently, just for my brief research, apparently there is many, a lot of life, honestly, and a lot of it set in Fae Realm, a Fae Realm world. I don't know, there's other, Celie and unsely, I don't even know what those are. And they use those terms a lot in this book.

I'm just like, okay, sure, Celie unsely. All right. I didn't know, I was not expecting the amount of blood in this. I was not expecting gore, straight up, straight up gore.

We saw rib cages. Yeah, that's pretty rough. I think I was surprised. It's weird, because I wasn't, I wasn't when Jude finally murdered someone.

I was like, Oh, we're doing this. Okay. Like, she like hid the body. She buried it.

I was just like, I appreciated how much the story did not shy away from it. And I thought that was kind of cool. Like from that moment on, I knew that there would be consequences that none of the side characters were safe. I assumed the main characters would be, and I think that made it really interesting.

Like, as a reader, like, I felt like I was very tense after that moment. And I was tense before then too, because a lot of crazy stuff had happened, but like, they're not kidding when they're like, this world is chaos. And like, it's like, it's terrible. It's so mean, everything's terrible.

Everything is awful. This book is me. It is, I mean, the title is the cruel prince. So the cruel is right in the title there, but it is cruel.

There's not everything. There's very little, I, and I think that's, I liked it. Oh, I did too. Yeah.

I like the book. I don't think I loved it. I don't know if that's really anything the book's fault, really. I think it's just me, mostly.

It's fair, because I feel like that's similar to feelings on some previous ones. Like, Mel Moth, I was like, I think this is a good book, but this book is not for me. Like, I'm not the audience for it, you know, like. Right.

I mean, it's not, I like, I, I, have you read any of the Game of Thrones? Fire, fire, fire, fire, nice ice and fire. I haven't. That's where I've had a feeling that that is going to be a little bit too much violence for me.

Like, I couldn't do a show and I've heard the books are worse. They're bad with that. There's a lot of it. It's, I mean, it can be fair.

The books are incredibly long. So it balances out because there's a lot of stuff that is also not violence, because there's so much world building and character and all that. You're not really, you know, it's not like every page. It's not every page.

It's the same ratio. I would say to this book, where, you know, you are like, hey, things are, you know, it starts off with her parents being brutally god. The writing in that whole section, like it was so poetic and like, oh, because she said something along the lines of like the carpet that we're not allowed to track mud on is turning red and like that line just like sent chills down my spine. And I was just, yeah.

I asked, I asked about, I don't, I'm not going to try everyone. I think there is a, like a certain Game of Thrones vacation of the world where you're like, it's just like Game of Thrones. I'm like, it's not, it's just low fantasy out of George R and Martin is very popular. So that's why people compare it.

But it is another, it's a thing I've noticed with a lot of, of not a lot, but the Walking Dead is another series television show and comic series that has high body counts, right, where no one is safe. And you're like, Oh, they could kill anyone at any time. Game of Thrones is the same way. And I think it earned a lot of, I think it earned a lot of attention because of that fact of the fact that we are following these characters, we get attached to them and then they will die.

They are not, you know, they, the, the, the, the writer is not interested in necessarily, like, Oh, yeah, I love these characters. I, I need to coddle them and make them safe. And they won't get hurt. You know, there's, they might get injured.

They might lose someone they love. A supported character might die, but they're fine in the end. And these, these types of works, you're like, no, people will die. And your characters you like will die.

It's quite a high possibility. This isn't quite there. I think yeah, I feel like the last book is going to be that sort of anything could happen feeling. But I think right now, I always, I'm like, okay, we have two full more books.

I'm going to assume card and safe, and I'm going to assume Judith is safe, but everyone else is a little bit of a gamble. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if something happened with her sister, with Oak, with either her sisters, Taryn or VB, like in Maddock too, I'm like, whoa, I'm like, I guarantee you can't make out of this a lot. There's no way. I liked that the stakes were high though.

And that it feels like there are accounts. Oh, man. But I was thinking about characters who died. And then I thought about what was her name?

Was it Sophie, the human girl that she saved? Yes. How we got a glimpse of her at the coronation with like, pointy teeth, really looking forward to seeing where that pops up in the second book. She's like, she's like some enthralled seamancer now, basically.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure. I mean, I assume they mentioned it.

She mentions it for a reason. I don't know. I feel like she's got to. Like, I don't feel like anything in that this book was placed just for the heck of it, you know.

Right. I mean, there is, I think it is very, I don't know, maybe not. It feels well plotted, which is important because of the, I didn't know how much of the how political this book would be, which it turns out to be very political. You know, more fashion dispassion than fighting dispassion versus, you know, a nobility trying to gain the throne and all that, a game of thrones, you might say, and you win or you die, Paige, in a game of thrones, you either win or you die.

Just so you know. I was trying to think of something clever to say in response and all that's all I had just, uh huh. Good. Yes.

Yes. So more people are going to die in the series for sure. Oh, yeah, absolutely. They're there.

I was, I was waiting for the other shoe to drop. I pretty much, I don't, I don't know, I pegged a lot of the quote unquote twists before they happened. Oh, that's interesting. I was, um, I was pretty well, you know what?

Okay. So I don't want to say, I knew something bad that's going to happen at the coronation, but I didn't realize the extent of it until we were there. Like the, the clues, the hood in his pocket that he soaks the blood of his enemy, you know, which I'm still just like one of the logistics of that. Like he's dips the hood in the blood of his enemies.

Does it need to be drained? Like what? I don't think that hard about it, but I did. I did think that hard about it.

Um, anyway, what was I going? Oh, I didn't realize just how much violence there would be there. Um, I figured someone would get murdered. I didn't think everyone was going to get murdered.

And I knew that her, um, I feel we're calling him her father, but I guess she kind of made a statement that was like, well, I'm your daughter after all at the end. So sure. I had a feeling that he was plotting something, but I didn't guess the extent of it. So it's interesting that you called it like, because I had that very like shocking, like, whoa.

I mean, it's kind of was a case of deduction. It's very much like, okay, who are the players here? Yeah, who who's at who is going to be one? It's very clear that Cardin is like, I think Cardin is my biggest problem on this book.

Um, we'll have to, I'll, I'll, sorry. Yeah, we'll wait. We'll sidebar his card and Cardin's his own topic. Um, I figured it's not Cardin.

They're playing it obviously to like Lucy Lucy about Oh, yeah, does he sometimes is mean awful terrible, just awful to Jude. And then sometimes he's like, no, don't murder her with fruit. That'd be bad. Uh, let's not kill her with fruit.

And then he, you know, and the thing that really, the one, it's when he, um, when he pokes her with a pin so she can, she puts her finger to her mouth and then she gets the salt and she's broke breaks the thrall or whatever it is. And that it's that moment. I'm like, mmm, no, Cardin's not the bad guy here. And then you also get the moment where he's like beaten by his brother.

She's watching. I'm like, yeah, they're, they're, they're, she's trying to muddy the waters too much. He's not a bad, he's, he's a bad guy, but he's not the bad guy or whatever. And you're just like, well, who's left?

Who's going to be orchestrating or massacre? I'm like, there's going to be something is going to, something bad is going to happen on this coronation. They can't, I can't, if she went through and just made, um, Dane King without any problems. And then there was, and then it was, I didn't see the series becoming Dane is the King and Jude is the spy master kind of, which would be, I would assume what that series would be if Dane becomes king is Jude defending and protecting the kingdom while being a spy.

And then maybe she realizes they just bad and tries to unseat him or something. Um, but that, I was like, yeah, doesn't feel like what this book is. It feels very much during my Jude and Jude having to deal with being a human in this weird fairy world where, and where everyone is terrible to each other at all times. Um, and they don't care.

I guess they don't care that everyone's mean all the time. They have no real relationships. Uh, everything is, even though they can't lie, it seems like they lie way more than the, than she does. Uh, they just don't lie with their mouth.

But it felt very much like Maddock is just, Hey, he's a dude that loves blood, even before that he puts his blood hat in his pocket for later. Uh, just gonna put this on the pocket. No reason. Hey, hey, Maddock, why do you have your blood out with you?

Oh no, I'm just, I'm just carrying around with me. Really? Just carrying around before, even before that, it was very, of like, I don't trust this Maddock and the fairy fact it felt very much like they were, she was trying to lead us away because Jude was a little bit, a little bit more sympathetic towards him and he gives her a sword that was made by her real father, by her biological father, that Maddock murdered at one point and it's, I'm like, this is too simple. This is too easy.

I, and I'm, I, after all the terribleness, it felt, everything felt too good. You know, it was not totally matching everything that came before it. And I'm like, there's something there. She's leading us, she's trying to try to numb us to something.

Something bad is gonna happen. And I'm like, that's probably Maddock. He's probably double crossing Dane. I didn't see the oak thing.

I did not guess it all. Yeah. I, I started to piece that together. Um, like that there was another error.

Like, that was the extent of it. Did not think it was gonna be oak that is as soon as they started talking, it was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. And then Jude put it together and I was like, oh, wow, like what, what a twist. What's a twist?

I should have seen it with the acorns that it was, there's a clear connection there. And I, it's a good, that is a very good subtle kind of hint at things, you know, like it there. Oh, yeah, there are all acorns and et cetera, et cetera. Um, what was I saying?

Okay, Cardin. Oh, yeah. Where do we even begin with that? I, so the cruel prince, the title of the book, feels when, and like, I don't know, up until halfway through.

Right. Two thirds way through. Even two thirds is basically where the coronation happens and where everyone dies. Um, you know, there's deaths before that, but that's when there's like five murders all in, you know, in the span of five pages.

And you're just like, okay, uh, this is a lot. Um, up in the like halfway point, at least you're like the cruel prince is Cardin. For sure. I mean, when we see him, doesn't he like rip the wings off someone or she is remembering that?

The first thing he does, at a party is just casually rip off some of some creature's wings and okay. Um, and just casually means every, every one. And he's in that little, the weird, very click with Locke and Kaysia and the guy, the other one that that Judy ends up stabbing to death. I don't remember who it is.

I don't remember who it is. I know Ben is something with both of their names, how to say them out loud. So I'm glad that you attempted. So I don't have to, uh, Ben, I forget the dude she kills and then buries behind the horse barn.

Um, but him there, the, that click of just, they're all, they're the mean girls of the nobility, I guess, because we don't really know any of the other, I assume that it's just not them and the sisters in his classes. I assume there's like a wide array of other students. Yeah. And they're just the mean ones who click the click.

And it starts with us like seeing just over and over and over and over and Cardin is awful. Cardin is mean. Cardin does terrible, terrible things. And they have this versus just like a rivalry.

And then it seems like it's a blood feud. And I, I just cannot buy the face turn. I cannot buy. Oh, Cardin suddenly, I can't get it.

I'm like, I can buy like, oh, they have a uneasy alliance kind of going. Well, I felt like at the end it was an uneasy alliance. Like they don't trust each other. Right.

They don't really like each other, even though they feel other things for each other. Yeah, that's the thing that the kissing, a lot there's the, that's the, I get it with Locke to a certain extent, because she doesn't have a strong feelings of anger towards Locke, even though he's a scumbag, but they're all scumbags. I can't, I don't, I don't think I could say this enough. Everyone, all the fairy people, they're all terrible, all of them, even little oak.

I'm he's young. So maybe he'll get better. But Vivi is all right that I feel like because she was raised for a while in human world, she's a little bit less. She's like the cool rebellious older sister.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, I know that seems like it was the intention for her character, but I feel like she really pulls it off. And you're just like, ah, you're so cool. Yeah.

Right. Let's, yeah, I don't know. I just, I like her very realistic, you know, but also, um, yeah, she, I think is probably the most human character that we meet in the whole book. I mean, even Jude, we're in, we're like in her head.

So it's really easy to like justify the terrible things that she's doing. But she, we see her grow into a very like ruthless character who still cares a lot. And it still has like good in her, but she's not always doing good things. I really liked how complex she was.

Yeah. And the whole time I was like, you hate him, but you're also attracted to him. Like it, you know, like the way that she was enjoying making him sort of like, I mean, she didn't realize he was jealous. But like, whenever she was at Locke's party, she was kissing him, but really looking at Cardin, like the whole time there was this like underlying attraction.

And then when they finally kissed, to me, it didn't, it didn't feel right or okay, if that makes sense. But it also made, like it, it felt like, well, yeah, they're gonna kiss now. Like it should, should you kiss someone you're holding cap to? No, like morally, there's a lot of not great stuff happening between them, but like the kiss to me, the tension that built up was just like cool, they kissed finally, but I didn't necessarily want them to kiss.

Does that make sense? Like weird, like this weird ship that I'm like, I don't think I ship this, but why am I shipping this? But I don't ship this. But like the, the the tension that they feel for each other, I feel like it rubs off a little bit on the reader, where you're like, no, I don't want this to happen, but I want this to happen.

But I don't want this to happen. Like it's interesting. I mean, I think that's the pushball is intended, she wants us to, you know, there are certain times where you're like, no, that's a bad decision, don't do that. And if you're ultimately trying to sell your characters, yeah, they have to make bad decisions because you're, you can't write characters, they're like, oh no, I'm gonna do the right thing.

I mean, I guess it depends on what you're writing, you know, action, action movies, you know, work because the guys, the, the, the protagonist is a bad ass and they'll, and they'll like, yeah, oh, and the villain has some evil thing and some clever, and then actually goes, nope, it doesn't matter. And he overcomes the thing. But in this, it is intended like, Jude is not perfect. She makes mistakes.

She's very aggressive and impulsive because, you know, she's been given a bad deal in a lot of ways. You know, she watched her parents get murdered in front of her. And now she's living in a world where everyone's cruel to her all the time. I don't, I think it's some of it is because I am very, in some ways, I'm very different than Jude.

And I think it's hard for me to connect with her and especially choices about like, when she's kissing Carden, I'm just like, don't do it. Well, I'm like, don't do it. That's a terrible decision because Carden is a scumbag. And, and I'm also like, well, you just, you just got betrayed by Locke.

Like, Locke literally was just like, oh, you're so beautiful. And you're the, whatever, like him using all the sweet words on her. And then he's like, no, I'm just going for your sister. You're just kind of around.

Isn't that nice to me? Oh, wait, I'm terrible. And I was that a twist you expected? I had a certain like, after, after it was established that, Oh, no, actually, well, I think very, very, I highlight very early the book is very, they make a very big, she makes very big.

I keep saying they, she makes a very good point of emphasizing humans can lie, humans can lie, humans can lie. And fairies, the Fay can't, they can't lie. They always have to tell the truth or they have to be very clever about how they talk. And that is a very big point.

But like, it is not necessarily, they're always going to tell the truth. They just might not say something, you know, they omit, they omit things. And that's not technically a lie. So it's, it's okay.

But that's why they have to be very clever about how they talk and how they enter in bargains with people, because they can't lie. And so you're, I was set up to, you know, think, okay, that has to be something that has to be meaningful. And it becomes pretty meaningful, becomes very much about what is truth, what is a lie, and how yes, humans can lie. Yes, dude is a good spy and a good, a good rat, a good mouse, a mole, because she can lie to people's faces, doesn't have to use resort to clever wordplay.

But in the end, I don't see a meaningful difference between her and the Faye and how they speak. It's just the Faye have to be a little more clever about stuff. And I think that is a purpose because the whole book is, I think, largely about Jude becoming one of them, becoming ingratiated in the society, becoming as mean and awful as they are, having to do these things, because that is how you survive in this kind of the Faye realm among the nobility, because they are all cruel, because they are all clever. She has to survive in this place.

And to persist, she has to do this stuff. I just want, I don't know, telling, telling saying, Oh, I wish she was smarter. But I think if I bought into the fact that Cardin is supposed to, it feels like she softens on Cardin a lot in the end of the book, Cardin is clearly not as evil as the rest of his family, or not as dead as the rest of his family either. We're supposed to soften on Cardin a little bit because suddenly, Oh, he is, he's admitted, Oh, no, I actually am terrible here because I have a crush on you.

And I'm just like, none of this makes, I, it's just so counter, it feels like how old is Cardin? Do we know how old he is? He said, do the Faye age differently than we do? I know they're more old.

I think they live longer, but I think he's supposed to be the same age ish as her. Like I feel like they're born and they grow up the same, they just like live a very, very long time. At least that's kind of like the impression that I got. I got that they were all high schoolers, like it's not like he's, it's not like an Edward Cullen thing going on, he's like hundreds of years old and immature too, which I, I, I liked like reading the scenes with him and his click.

Yeah, they're horrible, but they also felt really realistic to like, I was talking about this book with a friend just the other day. And I was like, you know, I feel like a lot of girls in high school can relate to having a crush they don't want on the hot mean guy. And so maybe that's like one of the reasons that he did feel like kind of realistic to me where he's not not to like, I'm saying that's not justifying any of his behavior because he is the worst. But I felt like the circumstances, the way he grew up, it doesn't excuse anything, but it kind of helped build him as a character.

And I don't know, like to me, he was out of options, Jude kind of had all the power and then they make that pact for a year and a day where he's like sworn his loyalty, I guess, like to be her puppet. And so towards the end, their power dynamic kind of makes sense. And I feel like we are reminded how charming he's supposed to be. And I think the reader along with Jude and the Court of Shadows, is that what they were called?

Yeah, the Court of Shadows, they're all kind of drawn in and a little bit charmed like she walks in and they're all like sitting and laughing and playing cards. And yeah, I don't know, the softening up of him, for me, it happened at like the right time in the book where I was ready for a little bit, a little bit of character growth and like for their relationship to not necessarily get romantic, but to move forward in whatever lines they were going to form. I, I have multiple thoughts going on in my head. I need to decide on one.

I feel like I've been, I've referenced Artio reference game of thrones and the carding feels like Jamie Lannister to me. And I don't I don't buy into, I kind of soured on Game of Thrones as it went on. And I don't, I'm not going to try and say this is going to do the same thing game of thrones because they're very different in a lot of ways. But it feels Jamie Lannister in Game of Thrones is like at first, a complete and total monster worse than carton.

He literally throws a boy out of a tower. And that's, you know, they're, they're among many other terrible things he does. But then like three, three or four folks later, George R. Mine's like, I actually need him to be a good guy.

And so you're like, and then so you get the rehabilitation of Jamie Lannister is a good guy. And I never buy into it. I never go, oh, he's suddenly a good guy. No, he's still the same guy that pushed a kid off a tower and nearly killed him.

And it's, I desperately I wanted to say, and I think that's what I come back to at the end when I say I like it. I don't love it. And I think it's largely because me not necessarily a book is I don't think I like anyone in this book. Interesting.

I mean, I like Vivi. I mean, I don't like any of the characters. I like Vivi. You want to spin off where it's her and Heather and Oak in the human world, going to Target.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's nice. Honestly, that sounds pretty good. Middle fantasy. Yes, I went to middle fantasy.

And it's just, I find them compelling. I find you very compelling. And I mean, I don't mean like, like, as in, oh, I don't, I think they're boring, or I don't like reading about them because I find all the intrigue very interesting. I I'm kind of a sucker for political drama in, in fantasy settings.

And that's a lot of them are that. And this is well set up. It's well plotted. I'm interested to see, you know, among who, what becomes of this kingdom, I really like all the, like the sub fairy factions with the, the, the ones like this one loves humans.

This one doesn't. This one's just a bloodthirsty warrior. This one is got their power by this way. And this way, I think all those people all just play the flute.

Yeah, exactly. And I'm assuming that as we go, they, that will enter a larger equation of like, trying to please all these sub factions and keep them in line and worry about betrayal from them. So I'm very interested in that. I'm interested in June.

I want to see, I, because despite the fact, you know, the whole end of the book is her trying to set up to try and keep her, her, her father, Matic, from becoming the regent from basically crowning Oak, then ruling in his stat, ruling through him, and then basically forever, because okay, at a certain point, we'll just be the empty king and Matic will be the person actually in charge. And she's like, I don't, I don't want that. And then she is literally doing the same thing. She is now the regent, basically.

She is the puppet master in charge of Carden, even though it's only a year and a day, but we'll see. Who knows. After all that, very fascinating. Very, it's well written, the sub books were written, prose is very good.

It's more, I choose a bad person. She becomes a bad person. Carden is a bad person. All the fair, that people, for the most part, it seems like they're so callous and casual towards murder and death.

Like literally that scene where everyone dies at the coronation, they, June is describing how they love chaos and bloodshed. And now the whole crowd just like, they don't care that people are dying. They're just like, Oh, this is exciting. And you're just like, Oh, and I don't, I don't like that.

I don't, I want, at the end of the day, have someone that is still pure and good, even if they aren't safe or if they are, you know, because they're pure and good, they might get killed. I think I want that. And it's kind of a reason I soured on the walking bed. It's a reason I soured on Game of Thrones.

It's that I'm just watching a bunch of terrible people fight. And I don't, it's, it's, that's the real life right now. I'm watching a bunch of terrible people fight. And I want, I sometimes I go to books to escape from that.

I want a happy ending. And it's some, at some times, and I like maybe to have ending, it feels like totally this book is set up that I would expect at the end of the day. Like the third book you said is already the title of queen, the queen of nothing. And I'm like, so it's a terrible sad ending, which is what I was.

I'm so curious about, I'm wondering, because through book one, we've already seen Jude lose so much of her humanity. And I feel like she still has some left. But throughout the rest of the series and to the end of the book, is she is her heart going to be completely hardened, or is, is, is, is there a chance for a happy ending? Like, I, I'm fascinated, like I'm so curious where it's going to end up.

Because like, where, where this book, where she stands currently as a character from what I read, which is just book one, I still really like her. And I don't know if that's just, you know, because at a point in time, I was an angry teenage girl, not quite as angry, not quite filled as filled with rage. But you know, like, there's, there's something in her that is, like, relatable to me in some tiny level, which is weird to say, because she's does like, some awful things in the book. But I want, I want to see her happy at the end, and I just don't know that that can happen.

So yeah, I can't, I can't, I can't imagine an ending that she's being happy. Like, I could cry a lot. I could see it. I could see it like a happy ending.

She is not a part of it. I was kind of loved if it ended with her being like the ruler, and she's then like, totally evil. Like, I just, you know what I mean? Like, if, but then I feel like that would be really, it would be interesting to see if Holly Black can keep her, because it seems like to you, she wasn't as likable.

But for whatever reason, I still found her like, really likable. But I don't know if in book two, that feeling is going to remain, or if I'm going to start to be like, oh my god, dude, no, don't do any of these things. I'm so mad at you. Because I wasn't as frustrated with her as I thought I would be.

I was kind of like, I was delighted by her, her mischief, which I guess is good, which I guess means that I've found a series that I'm ready to throw myself into and read more of. But yeah, I don't know. I can definitely see why she wouldn't be likable though. Like, and you're totally right.

Like, all these characters have done some bad stuff at the first. I was like, oh, the ghost. She seems great. He seems like, and then you find out what he did, and you're like, oh, man.

Oh, you poisoned a pregnant woman. Yeah. Oh, cool. You're good.

Aren't you? They're to the, yeah, it's, I don't know. Maybe it's, I'm kind of programmed, I gave it a certain size, broken my brain a little bit, because the whole point of that is to say, like, everyone involved in, if you involve yourself in this, in these kind of political wars between ability, you're to do to win, you have to be more cruel and worse than your competitor. You have to be willing to sink yourself to the lowest level to win.

And that's clear what this book is leading to, because like, to be fair, to largely orchestrate everything without killing anyone, you know, even though I think it would be better off, if she just let Maddock die, I don't think he needs, why is she? That's the, I think the only other kind of my only other misgiving between character relationships is she, I like the fact that she has this kind of very tormented relationship with Maddock, because he takes care of her and protects her and will do anything to protect her. But he also murdered her mother and father in front of her when she was a child and has a blood hat, so like, constantly, so like, he just keeps it in the house. And it's a constant reminder.

Oh, yeah, he murders, he loves war and loves killing. And literally when she asks him, how do you sleep? He's like, Oh, actually, I sleep fine. It's when I don't do all the killing.

That is when I lose sleep. And I'm like, Whoa, this guy is irredeemable. You should just kill him. I don't, there's no reason to keep him a lot.

And like, that's, I understand it's probably a mistake that's gonna end up costing her in the end, I assume. But it pragmatically, it's very much like, he's caused way more pain to you than he's caused good, at least from what we've seen. You know, there's a lot of years that we don't see in this book. That'll be interesting if we get any more glimpses into her growing up in fairy and see like, more of those little moments that have kind of strengthened the weird bond that they have.

I thought it was very like an interesting approach to have her be like something in that first after the opening chapter, it was something along the lines of like, and despite myself, I love him. And I don't think I've ever read a book where something like this has happened in general probably. But you know, she now lives with the person who kidnapped her, who murdered her parents, who has now become this father figure. The closest thing I can think about the top of my head is like, for every reason, I thought that he would be some sort of like wicked stepmother, sort of person in her life.

And then we got into that next chapter. And I was like, wow, what an interesting take on this dynamic. Like, it's very, it felt very new. It felt very real since she was so young when she came here that she's developed this strange fondness for him, like this family bond despite herself.

And I just, I don't feel like I've ever read anything like it. And I thought that was a really cool approach to just make him not less evil because he's still evil, but make him feel realer and make their relationship and the life she's had feel realistic in a weird way. It was definitely really jarring when we jumped into it. And I was like, Oh, you're having like normal conversations with him, like you're delighted when he's proud of you, like, and we're getting these little reminders of how numb you are to like the thing that he's done when she like goes and she looks at the hood of blood and she's like, and every time I do it, I feel a little less.

And I was like, wow, like, what a weird experience. I don't know. Like, I was fascinated by their relationship. I thought it was a cool direction to go in.

But at times you kind of wanted to like scream, like, and be like, remember what he did, don't forget what he is. And I feel like she's reminding herself through it. Like, I shouldn't forget the sort of monster he is. And yet I can't help myself.

I just thought that was really, really fascinating. Well done, Holly Black. What a weird relationship. I think it's mostly my problem that is mostly the ending of this.

And I think what is the end of their relationship? Like, why? The question is, like, why does that she kill him? Yeah.

Why does that? When she poisons him, why does that she just give him enough poison so that he dies? I don't know. She's got to have a plan for him at war.

It's not a plan. Or she is just being short-sighted, like, she has a teenager, you know? Right. And it's just, it's, I think it's a lot of questions that probably can't be answered until you read the whole series, you know, you don't necessarily know.

Oh, well, why wouldn't it? It's just every time I read a book that has, you know, it's the first and the long series. We're not, this is a reason, as long as it's a trilogy. That's not that long.

But it's, it's, it's a thing I go, oh, well, I, they need them for later books. It's, it's always in the back of mine. It's like, oh, well, they need them around because they're important to the plot later on. And if I think, I don't mind that she keeps them alive because, yeah, of course, she says lots of times about how she's conflicted about how she feels about him because yes, he's taken care of her.

He's kept her alive. He's also one who brought you here. He's also one that's basically straighted you here because everyone you knew and loved is dead because you killed them literally in front of you. Yeah.

Yeah. I can, I can appreciate life. Oh, yeah. She likes it when he, he is proud of her.

He likes it. She feels good when he teaches her things and she, he shows, you know, he obviously, you know, give, has trust in her. And now, Orion talks about how, yeah, he must be, he must be absolutely infatuated with you because there's no, like he's doing all these things and you're human and he's not even, you're, you're not even, or he's real daughter. You know, you're, you're, you're, you're just adopted.

And yet he still gives you all these things. And I, it just feels like an abusive relationship at the end of the day. And it feels like someone who is just giving an abuser more and more and more and more rope. And I want it to end now.

I wanted them. I want, I want, I want you to just go, Oh, yeah, this is your one. I'm now a spy master who I'm a murderer now. I like, she, sometimes you're like, Oh, well, she was defending herself.

You know, she's going to attack. She had to kill someone because she was going to die otherwise. But at the time, she's just sitting in a tree and just crossbow and people. They don't see it.

They just get crossbowed and they're dead. Goodbye. You don't know who they are. There's some person there.

She was told they were a spy. She doesn't really know what they are. She's just like, it's a messenger and no, no messenger. And that's like cold blood and murder.

Right. And so she's definitely not afraid of murder people, which she is very clear. And you're like, well, one, that she didn't murder your parents. And two, he is definitely in the way of this political thing.

You're trying to get done. And he definitely is not going to give up. That's one thing he definitely does not. Yeah, she probably should have just killed him.

I know you're saying that, Hey, people are allowed to make characters are allowed to make mistakes and be be dumb, you know, be shortsighted. Maybe I just wanted a little bit more. You want to bloodshed? Well, I wanted that.

I wanted an explanation. I wanted to know like, why is she just poison enough to put into sleep, but not necessarily to kill him? Why is she getting him out of the way? And then like, if another character asked, all I would take is for Cardin to look at her and go, why did she just kill him?

And then she could go, she could ask questions like, Oh, well, I still love him in a weird way. And I can't do it. Yeah, I'm not ready. Yes.

And that's all I would. And that's all I wanted really. And it just, there wasn't quite. And I think that's my, this book should be longer.

I know, right? I wasn't in gosh, that's the trouble I had with trilogy's sequels, whatever, sometimes, because I feel like it ended, it ended probably where it had to end. But at the same time, I feel, I don't know, maybe I just wanted another book, maybe I just want to read the next one. I mean, it's not that I agree.

Like, okay, at a certain point, yeah, she could write, you know, a hundred thousand page book or something, you know, something ridiculous like that, and make this all one book. I'm not, I'm not going to necessarily complain about, you know, series books and trilities and how that how that all works. I think at the end of the day, you read a book and either you're satisfied with it and want to read more about these characters, or you're not satisfied. And if you're satisfied, then I think that answers its own question that, yeah, that's why that's a series, because I read one book one and I go, I'm satisfied with I read, and I want more.

And that is, I think that answers your own question. Like, is this, is this worth, is this a series that is ethical? Or is it just like, oh, it's, this is blatantly just a cliffhanger to try and get us to read book two. Right.

And I don't think, I don't think that's true at all in this. I feel like this, this has a nice solid arc to it, where you get Jude starting out as mostly innocent. And she ends up and now she is this kind of spymaster and manipulator. And she's in this interesting position with Cardin, I think it ends in a perfect spot.

And I'm not complaining about that at all. I want more in the middle. I want more, I want more of, give me more of these different noble houses, give me more of her training for a spy map. Like, there's lots of sequences where she's like, and I did this and I did it next day and the next day and the next day.

And I'm really tired. I'm like, well, I want to know, I want to see those details. I want you to have, I want to see every interaction with Roach, I want to see every interaction with the ghost. We barely know the bomb, the bomb, it seems like a really fun character.

Yeah, that's really cool. I hope we get to know her more in the second one. But, oh, you know, now that you've said that, I feel like I could have done with one more scene of her like learning to be a spy and failing. And I think her like, like, stealing a servant and breaking the spell and stuff, that was supposed to do that for us.

But I kind of wanted to see her mess up a little bit more because I do feel like it was like, I did training, I did training. Now I'm great at this. Like, and I don't know if you kind of like, I don't know, like a little bit more of a ramp up would have maybe added to it. Yeah, training montage.

Give us, give us, give us, you know, she makes, she makes, she makes, she takes care of us take care of us take care that she gets better, she gets better, she gets better. Yeah. And I think that's, and I think, that's not, that's not a bad problem to have, or I go, I want to see more of your world, I want to see more of the details. And I think that is, I think the world building could be fleshed out more, there could be more about this interesting Fay realm.

I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's that she assumes, I think I read that this is set in the same world that she's already written books in. Oh, interesting. I'm not positive guys, that was not by like some, I don't know, that's hearsay at this point, because I haven't read the books and I don't even know if I trust the person who said that. But maybe she assumes that some people have read those books and knows a lot or has read a lot of way fantasy where it's set in Fay realms and you're kind of, a lot of this is short-handed.

You should know most of this stuff already, because you're, you assume kind of a familiarity with the genre, familiarity with the setting or something like that. I'm not, I'm not a typical reader, I'm assuming of hers, but I want any more. I want, that's why I want to read fantasy. I'm kind of buying in at a certain point.

I'm going, I want to know as much as you can get me about this world. I want to see all your made up rules. I want to know the rules of, and I think it's not, at some points here, just like, well, how does that work? Because she gets the, she gets the geos, geos, whatever, how do you ever say that word?

Yeah, I don't know how to say that. Whatever. And she gets that, which protects her against being enthralled. She can't, another Fay can't just tell her to do something and then she'll do it, which normally she asked where a necklace or where her clothes inside out or have salt or like, there's immediate, like a bunch of different things that supposedly stop mitigate those those things.

But apparently the king or the prince telling her, hey, you're fine now against that. But then, later on, she eats the fruit and it doesn't protect her because the fruit, the fruit does something to her that makes her suggestible. That was interesting too, where it was like the fruit itself has a different set of rules, which I don't know, I didn't need to suspend too much disbelief to be like, okay, well, basically she can't be compelled. But if she ingest something that has its own powers, it still has effects.

Like, I kind of liked how she like peppered in the world building, and it wasn't like a big info dump, like we got like a little bit here and a little bit there. But I can understand like the desire to have more explained and more answers and it not just being like a little bit left up to the imagination, you know? I hesitate to ever say, oh, I wish there was more world building because I usually am a person who loves cut to the quick stories, does not spend a lot of time on, and I, you know, when I say I want more world building, I mean, I want good world building. I want it to be like, you've set your characters in a place and by them, by following them, you understand the world, not necessarily here's how this world works.

Here's a bunch of rules. Here's a person explaining it. Here's them literally giving a character a book that is just here's rule number one, here's rule number two, and they read the book for us. I'm like, oh, that's no, I don't want that.

But I definitely, in fantasy, I think I can make the exception in a science fiction, for that matter, where I can, I can go, well, I will take in the extra the words, the extra time I want, because I want you to establish what this world is and how it works. And I, I want to, I think knowing certain rules about how the Fay work and how their bargains work, just setting up those at some point makes me understand the stakes better, makes me understand can someone get out of this? Are there bargains immutable? Are there, you know, they, they talk a lot about how, yeah, you don't, obviously, you can't agree.

You don't want to agree anything with the Fay, because there's always fine print somewhere, you know, it's a, you know, it's the monkey's paw situation. You go, yeah, they'll give me what I want. And then also, this terrible thing happens. And I think at some points, I was a little confused if what, when does that, is that all the time, like you literally can never talk to another Fay, and if they say, Hey, you want me to go get you lunch, can you just say, No, no, thank you.

I will, I will get my own. Do you have to always, can you never literally take an offer from a Fay, because they may mean like, Oh, I'm gonna get you lunch, but you'll die. And I'm like, Oh, okay. No, that is, I mean, she never accepts a drink from anyone in the book.

So, and you know, at a certain point, she starts poisoning herself, which I love. Yeah, that was really cool. I really like that a lot. I, again, when I say, I would like this book to be more book, that's not necessarily a bad complaint.

It's more like, I want more book in this book, because I like it a lot. Are you gonna be reading book two? Yes, I'm gonna read book two. And then I'm gonna just mope around and lament waiting for book three to come out, depending on how book two goes, I guess, because I mean, I might, I might get mad, I might, she made a lot of promises at the end of book one that I think are gonna blow up in her face and book two.

I also know some spoilers, I think. And so I'm interested to see when and how they happen. At a certain point, I think I start seeking out spoilers for a series. Yeah, you're like, tell me tell me what happened.

Well, should I read it? Should I keep going? And I don't know, like, there's, at a certain point, I am very weary of series and weary and wary, I would say. That's fair.

And it's not, I don't, I don't know, they feel, maybe it's because I've read so much about how you're about book marketing and about, here's how you make, here's how you make money. Now selling books, you have to make series because people will read one and then read book one or book two, book one or book two, and then they'll go, I need to read the rest. And then they make all their money. And I go, well, sometimes stories don't need to be serious.

Sometimes you just tell them, and then you're done, then you move on to another one. And that's how I work. I don't, I come up with a lot of ideas for books. I never go, oh, this would make a great series.

Usually I go, that's the end of the character. They found, they had their arc, and they're done. And there's not much else to do with them. Like, do they, you know, it's not, I can't think of characters like, oh, it's Batman.

Batman will have many adventures. It's not Indiana Jones, or as many adventures. It's not, you know, it's, I can't, I can't think of, maybe that just not how I work. And I don't necessarily blame people who can't, it's not, I can't think of like, oh, Buffy, you know, she's a vampire, but then there's this whole royalty encounters.

I, I'm on the fence and read book two. I was gonna ask, I'm on the fence. I, it might just be like, hey, page was book two. Good.

And you'll go like, yeah, it was great. I'm like, well, then I'll, I'll, I'll take, I'll take your, I guess criticisms into consideration. And I'll be like, okay, yes, but like, I'll, I'll try to give you an informed endorsement. Yes.

I don't want any of my criticisms to, to this influence of people from reading this. I think this was very good. I think the pros is very good. I think that it's a thing that you listen to any kind of criticism about art.

And they don't, it's hard to go into the nitty gritty of like, was the pros good and why was it good? I think it, no, she knows when to be descriptive and when to not be descriptive. I think she knows when to pull her punches for the most part. I think she knows when she like, we talk about how gory it is.

It's really the, the most of that is isolated to the coordination. And largely, there's not, there is, I'm not like gore in the typical sense, although there is a lot of like cruelty, cruelty gore, if that makes any sense, like there's a lot of, I mean, seen where she stabs her hand, but it's also kind of like a weird, there's like weird power dynamic bullying with violence, like peppered throughout this book. And it's, it's uncomfortable. For sure.

I'll very uncomfortable. And I think that's the other thing it feels, this is, this is, I think it's the main thing that is making me reticent and hesitant to read book two is, this is what it feels like to me, it feels like we are watching Jude being the victim of being abusive relationships because of being in kind of the power, in the power dynamic that she lives in, you know, she is a human, she's a minority in this world. And she's constantly the victim of abuse from everyone, except her own father. And even then her father is abusive to her in a weird, like, weird way, because he makes her live with him, and the lives makes her live in this world, and stranded her there.

But in other ways, it's very loving and protective. And it is very uncomfortable to be for me. But I feels like the arc of this story, over its entire arc, is going in the direction of she has been bullied and abused. And the solution to that is she becomes the bully.

Yeah, I definitely see it going that direction too. And the hero becomes the villain. Yeah. And I don't necessarily think that's a bad way for a story arc to go.

It is definitely one I'm not interested in. I want, I don't, I don't want those stories. I don't, I don't, maybe I maybe have to write too many of them, or I am just in a mind state right now where I just don't want that. You know, I want the bad guys to lose.

I want the good guys to win most of the time. And I want the characters to realize what is good and what is bad. You know, I can imagine, I don't, and I, I don't think that this series will necessarily be like, hey, Black and White, now Jude is a bad person and she wins. I just, the, like, it's, the gore doesn't bother me.

It is just the constant of like, she, yeah, like the girl, the scene, that scene, where they force me to hear the fruit and then they make her strip. I, you know, it's so uncomfortable. And I, I, at a certain point, I'm like, I understand Jude becoming a monster because of the things they do to her. I, at a certain point, I'm like, why isn't Jude doing worse things to them?

Like she, they are terrible. I would, she's in power now. She can do anything. Why doesn't she take advantage of it?

And I don't, like, it makes me feel gross a little bit. That's, that's totally fair. You're like, I thought it was, it was interesting when she was hiding and she saw Cardin getting like beaten by that, by his brother, but by the hand of the, the human servant. And she wasn't, she was like surprised that she wasn't enjoying it.

Right. And that was still somewhat early around in the book. So it's going to be interesting to see if she changes in that way, where she starts to enjoy watching suffering. Yeah.

And I hope not. I hope it's in the case, you know. Can I, can I ask you a question, Paige? Yeah.

Okay. This is another thing that did not sell for me, but maybe, okay, I'm so nervous. No, it's, it's a minor thing. Okay.

But it's just a weird thing. I just don't know if you, she finds that piece of paper folded up in Alice in Wonderland. She finds where, where Cardin has just scrawled her name, hundreds of times, like a serial killer, on a piece of paper and folded up and put it in a book. That's a normal thing to do, right?

That's the other thing. It's very much like, I've, I've, I've, I've had crushes on people throughout my life. And sometimes I can't necessarily like, oh, you know, I know why I like, I'm a crush on that person because she's pretty, not because she's a nice person or because, because she's, you know, has a good personality or whatever. She's funny.

It's, it's all one hundred percent looks. And I know that, and I don't like myself. Like you talked about earlier, liking of someone, having a crush on someone that you don't like, you're like, I like that person, but I don't like that I like that person. Never have I, or anyone I've ever known in my entire life, to just write their name down hundreds of times on a piece of paper.

Do you, do you, have you or known anyone to do that? Yeah. So not hundreds of times with blood splattered on the page, because that would be weird. But I do remember, I don't know that I ever did it, but I remember having friends who had notebooks with like the really cliche, like the name with like hearts and like variations of what, like, like Mrs.

So and so, like I literally saw that in middle school and high school. So I feel like if you take that trope and you twist it into something card and would do, it kind of makes sense. Maybe he was drunk. He's drunk a lot in the book.

He is. He needs to help. He is filled with, with, with rage and weird feels and self loathing. So like, yeah, I, um, if I sit down and I let myself think about it too much, I'm like, ooh, card, and that's a weird thing to do.