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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Box Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott Galloway is the Howard Stern of Podcasting according to The New York Times, in that he's currently off in private parts unknown. So today I'm joined for Scott Free August by actor, producer and podcaster Sean Hayes.
Welcome, Sean. Thank you for having me, Kara. This is my serious voice because we're going to be talking about serious topics today. We are, but I want you to be funny because you are a funny guy.
Okay, how much you got? Yeah, okay. So go back to the other voice. What about you?
People don't realize all the stuff you do. Obviously you're well known for being just Jack on Will and Grace, but you do a lot of things. You produce shows, you produce everything and you're podcasting. Yeah, we started a production company like I don't know, 15 to 20 years ago.
I was doing, I was on the set of Will and Grace. It was towards the end of the first run as we call it, first eight years before the reboot. And I was looking around like, how did all, you think I would have thought about this the first season, but it's the last season. And I was like, how did all this happen?
Who started this? Who brought the doughnuts? Yes, exactly. There's 300 people together to build this machine.
And I was like, that's the best thing. It always starts with one phone call. So who was that person? And I became really, really curious about building these, what I call machines of shows.
And it just kind of opened up a whole new area in my brain, which is not very large to begin with. Well, it's large enough because a lot of actors don't do this. They sort of have a hit show and then they go off into the wilderness essentially. Yes.
Well, I needed a reason to get out of bed every morning because I saw the writing was on the wall when you're on a hit show as I was so lucky to be on. You kind of know that that's kind of what happens unless you really dig deep and notice the grindstone and really kind of figure it out as you go. The therapist I had once said, you seem like a figure it outer. And I was like, yeah, it's called survival mode.
I wake up every day in survival mode because my dad left when I was five, my mom was working all the time. We had a parent ourselves. There was five kids, sometimes no food on the table. Blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, oh, I have to figure this out. And I'm gay. So now by the way, is that okay? Yeah, that's okay.
That's okay. That's okay. That's okay. That's okay.
Not with, you know, say Lindsey Graham, but we'll get to that in a minute. Well, she's in the same group. She is, but she doesn't seem to want to talk about it. Anyway, so you created these shows.
So explain the shows that you produce. A lot of hit shows. Yeah. I think it's?
Like, about several, luckily one was Grimm. That was fairy tales that were true. And then that was done for a long time, like six, seven years old and Cleveland with all those fabulous girls, Betty White, Belly Burton, Ellie, Jane Leaves, and Wendy Malick, and then Hollywood Game Night which started right here in my living room and that just turned into this game show, with Jane Lynn Shosting. And then we did some, I don't know.
Oh, what's it called? History of Comedy on CNN. Did that? Yeah, yep.
And I never had the time. I flew out to CNN. I got the six or seven AM flight flew out to see in a New York from LA did shot three commercials and flew back that night Yeah, that's what you gotta do. Yeah, that's what you're gonna do.
That's work. I don't know why you work just as hard as I do I do I do I don't know what it is. I know what is it? I like it.
I love it I don't I don't I don't I people ask me someone read me that you know I'll song as a quote that you'll get all the time you spent on business. I'm like well I actually like it. Yeah, you know what I mean? I love that time started with somebody read me Yeah, they were trying to get me to work less it was a family I like it, but wait, do you are you one of the classic therapists question?
Because I've never been there advised to know here. I'm even closer to the mic for this. Do you are you do worry that just the stillness? Were you just being still no?
No? Oh, all right. No, I like it. I love being still loving alone I'm very self-actualized as many lesbians are in case you're interested.
Oh good. I gotta go Okay, but here's the deal also the thing you are really a recent hit has been podcasting which I can't believe because you came up to me I think it was a problem sound you're like should I do this podcast and I explained it to you and you have like one of the top Freaking podcasts crazy. I was like because I was like because you had one of the top podcasts. I was like how do you know?
It is it's filled with smart people. That's why I'm a little intimidated by this today because I'm supposed to be smart, but I'm smart less So she was podcast. Yeah, but yeah, I remember that coming up to you and you were like, well, this is what you gotta do this But you kind of laid it all out for me. I was like that seems like a lot of work But but once you start it's actually kind of fun and easy.
It's I mean it's still work, but it's super fun Yeah, and you do it with your two friends. Yes, Jason Bateman and Will Arnett We've been friends for over 20 years and they're awesome. I mean the funniest people Like brothers. Yeah, and you surprise each other on the show.
It's a good show The concede is that we one of us acts as a host every episode and brings on a guest to surprise the other two And people are like people always say is that is that true? Are you really surprised? Yeah? Why wouldn't it be true?
It's what's my line? I was watching that the other night because there was a clip of Lucie O'Ball on What's My Line? It's all you have all that so you're watching all the recent shows. Yes.
Yeah, yeah So so one of the things that's really interesting about it is that you sold it then you sold it correct. We leased it Least it. Okay, what does that mean? Well, like a car use a bike or you lease a car if you lease it You have to give it back.
Yeah, so Amazon Wonder at least the podcast and we made a deal for three years and which was great They're an amazing partner and we love them and it's been going. It's nothing but joy. Yeah. Yeah, and you've been doing live shows It's been great.
It's been really I'm so pleased. Yeah, we went on tour in February of this year and we filmed Filmed as well for as a documentary. So for Discovery Plus. So exciting.
Yeah, that's exciting. I'm sure David That's all very excited anyway, so so before we go on I want to go through a few like things you understand the show I'm gonna talk about various things and you're gonna give me your thoughts on them And if you want to go off on to a tangent which I know you're known to do That would be fine too. So one of the I love that you just explained it like I was three Well, you I'm gonna bring up a topic and we're gonna talk about it And if you talk about something else that's okay, too and just make sure you finish your sandwich and your chips and your glass of milk Before we have too many children's John. I have too many children.
I know how many kids you have four four We just went on a trip to Europe isn't that amazing? Oh, you want this Scotland? Yeah, yeah, yeah, three of the four I want to go there. Why did you go there?
My wife's brother had a party in a castle because he had a COVID wedding and so this was the party part of it My wife had a party in a castle while there's no castles in LA No, so we had it was lovely we did Falcon Ray My son was able to throw its camber through the camber you know the log that you throw between your leg over over something Well, that's called something different from it. We did all the Scottish things we had haggis We did the whole thing it was fun. It was really good. All right, so two of three of my four children met the other is an Amsterdam And he met a girl.
He said now has a girlfriend No, no, they're on a program together and answer. Oh, I thought they met there No, they did meet there and now they're they're seeing each other and I keep getting adorable pictures of them So that's what you by the way if I ever had a second mom I would want it to be you. Thank you. Yeah, I mean it because your kids are so fantastic Which is such a sign of good parenting and my mom was great, too But I always think that about you just like you are all of it You're smart and caring and loving and honest and you know your rules and boundaries, but you're also loving I love it you would not have liked this morning with the body training with a two and a half year old That was not like go to the bathroom on the toilet.
No, you could like that. Yeah, I know I could do it with you You can't either person body train them to do and a half year old anyway So there's a new report in bloomers that says podcast hosts are charging guests to appear in their shows some post charge gas up to $50,000. Did you bring the check? Yeah, I brought Don't be in my mounts, but no isn't that crazy like I yeah, I just read that I was like wait What people pay to be on podcasts which I I never happened that would be so disgusting on my pocket But I don't understand I guess I can understand like the the desperation of needing the publicity and you can't get on I don't know it's kind of like dating somebody if you're not good enough or wanted enough to be on yet You'll accept a paycheck.
I don't know that's weird. It's called prostitution But you live in doing it for years like a lot of magazines It's pay to play kind of thing really prize that it's oh sure. Yeah, I'm sure you've been in some magazine where it was more marketing Then anything I know I pay for those magazines. I don't And then yes, I figured I figured so that was weird We don't either of us pay just so you know we never pay we never have people pay us to be on the show although people really do Want to get on podcast what yours would sell a lot of books for someone or whatever?
I'm sure you have people but yours, too. I mean, yeah, I don't know if would you ever do it? I don't think we don't need to do it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no People ask it's really interesting.
I do a lot of events and they're like what you pay them like zero How does that work for you? That's my fair has that work for you. Anyway today we have a lot of things we're gonna talk about Alex Jones Oh, so fortunate to Sandy Hook parents, but will he pay up also the Senate passes historic legislation around climate change? Well, Indiana makes history for something far worse and will speak with author Isaac Fitzgerald about his new memoir dirtbag, Massachusetts I thought I wrote it.
Yeah, exactly. So first of all first of all HBO and Discovery Plus are merging not a surprise Mr. Entertainment the product will be rolled out next summer Warner Brothers will start the process by cross posting content to both services recently HBO Max has been silently pulling down to Titles also canceling projects like Batgirl I'd love to know what your thought is and how Hollywood's feeling about these what's happening at Warner and I'm glad you asked because I speak for Hollywood So, yes, I thought I'm like a one-stop shop No, what I mean, I think it's super exciting. I mean like yes It's this huge conglomerate coming together to provide like I don't know I think it's gonna be as big as Netflix and look in the end It's so funny because now a lot of streamers are talking about ads support like a tier of ad port Yeah, it's not like I'm sure I think I read colors in that too like maybe Disney I don't know and so it's like oh, so it's just network TV again.
We're just now It's just different how we get it so it's all it's funny How it's all the same but I think it's exciting I think the discovery plus or discovery each of your thing is super exciting Think about all those brains coming together to create such incredible content. I think well They need a lot of content, right? So I don't know where willing Grace is for example Do you know who's been bought you get paid for when it goes on streamers or is that like I? Yeah, like something little but little but no one ever conceived of this you think about that when you're making shows like where it's going and You know what isn't it funny?
I sometimes you get like you get information from agents or people in the industry of what streamers are looking for like Well, we're really focusing on you know procedural dramas or whatever the thing is but in the end nobody knows what they want Until they see it like if I've heard like huge huge names Which I won't mention here getting passed on like projects getting passed on everywhere You're like I don't understand why that is but so they must have some edicts that we don't know about but it's project a project And isn't it interesting now when you watch a show people go where do I see that? I don't know Apple Netflix dis Disney I don't know where I saw it so you have to Google it So I think they have a branding issue with all of this content when you don't know yeah It's just like a cornucopia of well, it's good for content creators like yourself because they yeah No, it's great one of the reasons are merging is because they like Disney has an amazing IP Libraries yeah, yeah and and other Does to extend yeah and the other dude except but do you when you're an actor? Well, you're a producer and an actor, but when you're making these things you kind of have to be multifaceted We did it honestly truthfully as an excuse to see each other doing covid We were never jam as zooming it was like let's just do one let's do three Let's do six and then like I can't believe people find this interesting and then yeah, so I think it's I think the people respond to our podcast the same Reason yours or anybody else's authenticity and it's really truly us just screwing around right true. That's true.
That's true It's happening. Wait, wait, put a button on that other thing is it's kind of interesting though like do you agree with that branding thing about? Because I think it's confusing it's confusing to customers I mean people know Disney and you sort of know a Disney movie, but you don't know but you don't know the shows on Disney plus You just know shows so my point is this show This is my whole point. Sorry the show becomes the star the idea because the title is now becoming the star and stars sure are still important To add to the ingredients, but to me the idea is is It'll be interesting to see how the gray man does which is a lot is chock full of stars, right?
I don't know what's on Netflix. It's with oh, it's not totally bread. It's not right. It's the other guy I don't I have to look it up all right whatever anyway Number stars in the average which by the way in some cases they are theaters are making a comeback AMC has narrowed its quarterly losses with thanks to summer blockbusters like Tom gun maverick and Jurassic World The minute though the first was fantastic the second was terrible total revenue reach 1.2 billion dollars up from $444.7 million last quarter last year quarter and Nicole Kidman has renewed her contract as spokesperson for the company for a Other year just in case you were wondering have you been going to theaters?
I have not I have a little tiny bit tiny bit I saw well the ones you mentioned I saw I thought Tom gun man was incredible. I do too. I thought it was so good I do I think that's funny that Nicole Kidman not funny. I just think good for her I don't know her all but good for her.
I just hope she wears another sparkly pantsuit in every ad I have I bit as far as it's her. I'm like what is she doing up there? Yeah, she's she's telling us to go back to this isn't it wonderful to go back to the theater The seats, you know everybody's like Nicole sit down and then she sits down, you know what I mean? She sits down in the theater like she's really gonna watch a movie, but everybody everybody in this town that makes it They're like no they'll cut and she got out of there.
Yeah, that's right. She's making a hard-working woman in show business She works really hard. She's everywhere. Oh god.
She's everywhere. Yeah, she's in the prom. Yeah, I did Did you like the prom? I saw the Broadway show and I loved the Broadway show.
I thought it was incredible And yeah, I cried at the Broadway show because the girl gets the girl at the end. I was only my bowling my eyes up Yes, yes, yes, and it's of course the woman who won the Oscar for was in it for the supporting actress. Yeah I'm also like I'm like why can't wait because roller to bows or something like that. Yes, yes I'm the boss and so I just wonder if theaters are really making comeback I of course famously predicted that it's never gonna be the same post-COVID because young people don't go to them My kids don't go to your crystal ball never fails.
I know that's true But I still think I'm right. I still think I'm right. They have to have these hits Well, no, nobody's gonna go see, you know, remember the hours Yes, yes, yes, that was chock full actresses. That was that was all Acting yeah, I'll be good.
Yes, but you know, I mean nobody's gonna rush to see the new down now being even I would by the way And did but that's a plane movie to me. That's a plane movie. Well, it's from you. It's a theater movie because I only go to see Talk on Maverick.
That's the only thing I'll go over now. So what else you see? Well, that's a horrible movie. Well, it's a thorn the theater.
I saw Thor in the theater. I saw Thor in the theater. Oh, okay, right? Wildly disappointed.
Okay. Okay. I can't comment on those things. It was good in the theater I didn't see it but we just we just watched was like you know that movie Yeah, I was like oh watch a Pixar movie They're always well-made and and I watch it and I was like Scott.
It's like what's on TV. I'm like in our house He's like yeah streaming. I was like, so I don't go to the theater. No, that's not my own.
I think that's the way it's going Yeah, for sure. Why leave your house two more quick things Axios will sell to Cox enterprises for $525 million you lease they sold Wait, I don't know any of the words you said Axios is a media company and they came to me for breakfast They were they started Politico and I said you should leave Politico and start your own company and they just sold it for 525 million to who to a Cox enterprises Cox Papers I'm saying I can't I say it up Cox ate it up Come on. There's all those easy jokes. I'm just saying it's someone else I advise to go into their own business and they did but speaking of which not such good news.
Let's get to our first big story Alex Jones was paid $45 million of sandy I agree sandy hook a victim a singular one There's more cases coming the jury awarded that some impugitive damages last week as Jones to trial for defamation It was also decided he should pay an additional $4.1 million in compensatory damages by Jones mega break state law Texas take law caps the amount punitive damages can be the trial judge noted the cap and said that shows Texans quotes don't trust our Juries that said there are other cases coming up in states like Connecticut where there are caps and this jury did say what a Lying piece of shit he is. I mean, I think that's really that's not amazing. I mean by the way, did you know he has children? Yes, I did so like what are the kids that's what's amazing to me that he found a wife and kids that support him through all the lies I guess I think they have some marital problems from what I understand figure Yeah, he's also paid the 4.1.
Yeah, but that's nothing to him. No, well, it is he's keeping hiding money all over the place He's trying to declare bankruptcy etc, but he faces two other cases one of which is in the state where I think it go quite high So let me ask you something because you're 80,000 times more than me Do you think that? because of this decision by the jury and the judge and the kind of high profile the notion of this case that's all about kind of all about lying to make Money, right is the beginning of a of a kind of Lessons to be learned in the country that we're gonna come after you if you lie as much No, I think that there you know there's situations like Alex Jones, which are particularly egregious I interviewed one of the fathers of one of the kids killed at Sandy Hook. No, no, it was a positive It was killed there I interviewed his father Len Posner and in this case He's he's lost because he of the damage he in that the family's right Right because I'm not because of copyright or anything else Which is a silly way to try to beat someone like this because it should be because the damage he caused you know I think yeah, so it's really difficult I think one of the things that happens is unless they're stopped it's very Trumpian unless they're stopped they don't get stopped right I mean just today general millie they put out his resignation letter that he never sent because he didn't resign where he knew What Trump was doing, but then of course didn't say anything and I think that's what happens These people are in Bolden whether it's Roger Taylor Greene, right?
It's Alex Jones whether it's Roger Stone whether it's Trump himself that lying seems to pay off You know crime does pay but what's that? I mean that's the scary part right you're exactly right lying pays off and and that that governor that just won the election that Carrie Lake and she's like yeah stolen it's so I mean so let me ask you this Do you think that the people who vote for these people who are lying kind of know that they're lying? But they're like you know what whatever it takes no no because literally today my mother was like what's this QAnon thing? She watches only Fox so she does not aware of the damage So no I don't I think they believe it and of course it picks it sort of a scab of American public Which is someone must be lying somewhere right sort of weird conspiracy theories are active back to Alex Jones though Like don't you think the people who believe the lies and harass the families also are at fault because you have to be really really dumb To believe someone like Alex Jones right except no I mean it's sort of like talking by the people who attacked the Capitol at January 6 some of them were quite malevolent Some of them were just going along for the ride right and they just decided to trespass Because why not carry around the gavel of Nancy Pelosi why not you know where an outfit and run around and sit in her chair Whatever they wanted to do so no I think a lot of them are not malevolent I just think they go along with it and it fits in their worldview of that someone must be at fault And in general setting the malevolent players like Jones and Trump and others take advantage of that because they're suckers right?
So they're what's the and then how does this story end because because who's to say that the Democrats if we lose all the hardcore Democrats Are gonna be like well, it's a stolen like a stolen action you guys said it's over It's the whole idea is to create confusion and just an upsetness really upset people And so I think that's the problem is discord and disruption are and the tools to use it are online tools as we talked about You and I've talked about this is online tools are perfect it changes people's mentality They're seeing it online Yeah, so that's what these people existed since the beginning of the United States of America There was conspiracy theories right from the beginning the question is you know They had conspiracy theories about Alexander Hamilton, but it just didn't get out that much right and right and that's the problem So Jones I think is probably done for but they keep trying to make these decisions about freedom of speech And he said it will affect every talk show of course it will affect only the malevolent liars And we'll see he's gonna be he's gonna be in court forever now And I think though in Connecticut hundreds of millions of dollars and then they're gonna find the money He's hiding because he's made I mean he's so you think that And different things so you don't think somebody like him who's so extremely wealthy can kind of just keep fighting the courts until he dies And keep all his money while he's still alive. He's he's got a tinge of mental illness. So yes I think he can't just like Trump why not keep going why not keep going why not keep saying it because it raises money and doesn't I think Eventually, you know, he had to admit in court that he lied and one of the things that was really interesting is this judge He would say something then the pro attorney against him would say well here you are saying it and just as you cannot keep lying In court, but I can I can keep lying in court, right? Anyway, let's go on a quick break We come back we'll look into what didn't make it into the Senate's big bill And we'll speak with a friend of pivot Isaac Fitzgerald about fight clubs in the Catholic church.
Maybe he can give us some answers Mud Sam snow the track places where excuses don't work Where capability is something you prove one race at a time? Off-road racing formula one different worlds that pose the same question. What are you made of? Every ground is our proving ground ready set forward Support for the show comes from Odo running a business is hard enough So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other introducing Odo?
It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier CRM accounting inventory e-commerce and more and the best part Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's Odo.com Shawn we're back.
It's finally happened to send it past the landmark climate health and tax bill over the weekend It was a cash that the bill marks the largest climate investment ever by the US at nearly three hundred and seventy billion dollars But the victory wasn't without compromise some of the casualties of the deal making no universal puké no child tax credit No free community college no dental hearing and vision expansions to Medicare no expansion of earned income tax credit a cap No cap on the price of insulin Republicans killed that one and christen cinema kill the amendment that would close the carried interest loophole You know Molly junk fast-weighted find someone who loves you the way cinema loves private equity So there's a lot left in the table within the bill Medicare can negotiate directly with drug makers eventually expansion of insurance premium Subsines for low income Americans tax increases on wealthy corporations tax breaks and incentives or green technology investments just a few weeks ago We thought this agenda was completely dead. So it's sort of half full people are people are saying half full essentially Yeah, it's interesting. I you know, I'm gonna say the dumb dumb thing I break it down to the lowest down there. So you look at that number was number 700 I'm sorry.
It's a three hundred and seventy billion dollars Three hundred seventy billion dollars. Think about this for one second because this is what I will we never get to see is okay $1 million is a ton of money Ten million not think of 10 million. Oh my god. I think of a hundred million dollars What a hundred million then think of one billion dollars and now this is a 300 plus billion They always say okay, so this is gonna go here But I would love to see a line item broken down on a leader sheet or whatever that is of where every dollar goes because I Never see like the street.
I live on is filled with potholes But that's your new mayor you have a mayor election I'm super excited about that and but I never see the change I always see the same homeless people Obviously the same streets. I always see the same infrastructure just falling apart everywhere we go So and I know this is California But just like wherever I go wherever you travel and back was just in Chicago is like where's this money go like don't you want to see it? Broken down how it's great. Yeah, we're all supposed to celebrate that we got this past little a version of it past great Now where's it all gonna go because I feel like it just they celebrate and then we never see it right?
Well, that's a lot of people feel that way about the government right that why are they getting all this money and doing nothing with it? I think the question is how much came out of it because of you know political wrangling especially with business interests You know, they always seem to get the money they need like this this this amendment that would have closed the carried interest loophole Would have made millions of dollars for the government and it didn't because one single senator held up the entire thing because of the way it's done Because she happens to like venture capitalists and get a lot of money from them And so I think that's what happens and it's the expense of say universal free cake which we all know would be a good thing Yeah, but we can't seem to spend money on one of the problems that with these with these agendas is they're so big And they're so massive and the problems are even bigger that it makes it almost impossible to understand the benefits is what you're talking Yeah, because that because the effective way to do it is to get smart people that you're doling this money out to run certain programs But you but it's like you know, whether you hate them or love them people in Congress They're supposed to be smart they went to law school blah blah so they just throw the money at it But then the people that they throw the money at are like oh awesome I just got ten billion dollars to do whatever I want because nobody's looking down my you know, right? Right, right? I think a lot of that feels like that unfortunately I think a lot of again like we were just talking about people feel overwhelmed by all the problems and when these these bills come up It's a question whether it's positive or negative and then of course Republicans will use it to throw out like themselves and Democrats are effective and Democrats Will see look what we did for you now.
They don't do enough of that, you know So then like what do you do you feel powerless when you get when you read all this stuff and you've it wasn't you know Because you have a voice and you're using an umpivot guys welcome to pivot. This is Karis Wisher and I'm Sean Hayes This is today. We're gonna be talking to an author. No, you have a voice and you use it But I tell people like you know, I was it's my friend Maria Shriver who's one of the greatest people ever to live She's always like she would hear me complain about whatever we're talking about and she goes I know I totally agree.
So what are you doing about it? That's correct. I was like, oh, yes, right? She right she calls you.
I love that. What are you doing about those potholes Sean get out there the back Oh me like a construction listening to YMCA Favorite song by the way There's two things that I love your thoughts on Indiana passed a ban on abortion last week the first day to do so It's the overturn of Roe v. Way the ban is exemptions are rape incest and the health of the mother and some other qualifiers But it still has Indiana businesses spooked Indiana Most chamber of commerce caution the bill can make it harder to draw tourists and conventions to the state When you go on tour do you consider things like this for example? My pivot conference out of Florida because I don't say gay bill for example.
Oh, wow that'll show them They got that no tell you that no that's good that you know The Santa's is press person lost her ever love in mind. I see I love that you do stuff like that I just it just shows pulls her bullshit right because who would have guessed Kansas and now I wouldn't have thought Indiana would go this way And then I was kind of like when I read that I was like Indiana right next to what I do remember They tried to many years ago and Mike Pence was governor and then sales force kind of forced them force their hand They've been silent here, but don't you agree that like the polls are like, you know When you when you wake up in the morning, you're that's the news you read you like Indiana or you can't this it Just we don't it just we don't know what's going on in these towns and these communities in these I suspect the people of Indiana are not as Positive about this as a legislators. No, of course not. Of course not.
Nobody is by the way, right? Nobody is the majority of America doesn't you know Know once we read right so would you pull out of a city would you say we're not gonna go to Indianapolis for the smartless? That's a good question. You don't want to like, you know upset the people that are still your fans So it's I understand the reason to pull out and the statement that that makes at the same time your fans want to see you So it's not and they probably think how you think so, you know Hmm I wouldn't go to do that.
I wouldn't go to do that. Oh, no, I'm clear. I'm clear. Are you saying?
Yeah, I just feel like it's you have to you know I want to think about the people from the disantas people I was like well They kept saying I was woke in this and that and I said you know what I am I'm a capitalist and I want to put my money where I want to Just because you're a communist I want to force me to do things so I kept calling them socialists and communist which upset them But I was like I'm a capitalist and I don't feel like making money for your state, right? I don't feel like doing it It's my capitalistic decision to operate in cities and states that are more and you can't do it everything You're right like what do you do if you're a business owner with your sales force? You have employees there? Right, it's tricky.
I mean I love that you you did that. I don't know look it's case by case, right? Maybe I'll feel different and yeah, well when I was talking to Kathy Griffin a couple weeks ago She said she's a hard time now doing she hasn't gone back to stand up after the attack She was stood from the Trump administration, but she she's nervous to go to those because of guns, you know She's nervous of being attacked. Yeah, I would too I mean, oh my god, can you believe it by the way going way back to the beginning this entire episode?
What about movie theaters is like yeah, that's why I don't I'll go selectively I'll make sure I'll go when it's kind of empty because you look online when nobody's there and because I don't want to get shot up in a theater That's what people think now. Can you believe that? That's that's where your mind goes whenever there's a public kind of anything So I mean it's probably because of my age two I'm not 20 years old where you feel invincible and whatever and you go Yeah, I'll go to that outdoor concert I'll go to this thing, but it's on my mind. Yeah, absolutely Anyway speaking of potential bands also something that's a little closer home to both of us Senator Lindsey Graham says that abortion and gay marriage rights should be decided by the states Well, here's what he said.
Are you saying that the 2015 Supreme Court decision that made same-sex marriage the law of the land nationally should be overturned? No, I am saying that I don't think it's gonna be overturned or to be well, you know, that'd be up Court the reasoning I think could be attacked But the point I'm trying to make is I've been consistent I think states should decide the issue of marriage and states should decide the issue of abortion. So What do you think about that Lindsey Graham? Well, I mean, what how much time do you got?
I mean, I know I don't think she's getting married anytime soon He's speaking my language lady She's she came out of the womb kind of screwed up like yeah, I don't know look, you know, I'm not as worried about Game marriage the game marriage issue. It's gonna be really really really hard to undo that Especially when I don't know look. I might be naive, but you're being nice. I am you think they want the game marriage gone They want a lot of the people do you don't think it's about that go up to somebody who's against it, right and go How was your life affected before game marriage was legal and after it was your life has not changed at all?
We don't see each other. I don't know you you live your life you go to work You have your family you drink your beer you do whatever you want and I'll go do whatever I want But I get the same benefits as you that's why we live in the country so for the people that are so adamant What the hell how is it changing your life in any way? Yeah? I'm a little meaner I literally I'm like get your fucking hands off my marriage or I'll kill you like it's really my whole policy You know, I really find it I carry the 14th amendment with me equal rights under the law I care like it's weird because someone you know, I make the joke that only only lesbians are having this many children and Except for evangelicals and ours get vaccinated.
I do have actually evangelical relatives But you know, I'm just gonna keep having children is what I'm doing I'm building up a group force that is going to you know, I of course form the militia other rich with them And we're gonna fight for our rights. We're not gonna militia You butch enough now who me yeah, no, I'll organize everybody's food when they come back from the battle Are you married wait, I don't even know this or you for 16 years. Yeah, 16 years mayor. Well, no married Maybe like nine years eight years nine years So what would you do if they started to bring it back to six then you would once again if you were in other states and something happened to you Say you were in Indianapolis.
Yeah, I would get I will see that's the thing It's there's me and you I get upset when it's like about to happen or something But there's nothing happening right now. So I don't really right like the rest of America You don't really focus on until it affects you so but what I do I would fight it I would definitely fight it and I would I almost feel like I almost feel like there's a lawsuit against the government if Something like that happened because you can't give somebody a right to take it away. How is that just it? No, I know but I mean everybody's fighting it right But what's happening is all the state every state is almost except for Indiana is saying that the ban is wrong Well, not Texas not Florida, you know, we'll see it's the legislators in charge I think they have marriage in the cross-air because they didn't win the first time They lost badly and they want to win it back.
I think these are something They're having a harder time with marriage over than abortion I think that is no question because I think most people you know the numbers are higher I don't think it's gonna happen. I just don't think it's gonna happen I just listen to Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito and I think well it could happen I know and you know the thing that everybody brings up which is such a smart argument What about an racial marriage? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I guess you know, but I guess you're gonna look I mean where does it end?
It doesn't that Christian America as Marjorie Taylor green says what she said that she wants she said that yeah, Christian Nationalists She's crazy. I believe me. I don't you I'm other also asked who she was today I was like she only gets Fox News. So she only gets you know, you know what I thought you said who she I thought you met me No, she was very she my mother was very excited about her you Well likewise she likes the gays she likes the gays But she still was not the best parent in that in that situation But she nice settled that many years later.
Yeah, my mom my mom wrote me like a 12 page handwritten both sides legal size paper You know, I'm going to hell I'm read the Bible and then she did a complete 180 and And said you know, it's a favorite Yeah, well there you have it anyway, so speaking of which we can men speaking of men. Let's bring in our friend of pivot Isaac Fitzgerald is the author of dirtbag Massachusetts a confessional which follows the author from a Catholic upbringing to bartending and dive bars to missionary Work dodging land mines in Southeast Asia welcome Isaac Fitzgerald care. Thank you so much for having I have to say your title It's my I wish I have this title from I'm supposedly work on a book, but I wish mine was called dirtbag in fact I'm thinking of calling my next podcast dirtbag. I think it's the most perfect About this but first you had a hit children's book called how to be a pirate and my I did buy it actually for my daughter And I think it's wonderful, but now you're writing your own coming of age story about yourself So talk about why you called it dirtbag massive Massachusetts obviously you're from Massachusetts, but what was your goal in writing this?
Well, so I originally had there was a town I moved around a lot as a kid But a town I spent most my teenage years in was called at all Massachusetts I'll give you one guess when everyone else in the state called us asshole asshole Massachusetts turns out you can't Call about that or you know you have to have asterisk or something And so it's actually my good friend Jason Diamond who's a wonderful author and he did you not we were driving to Boston for an event of his We're gonna stay in a motel under like a shadow of Fenway And he just very casually said why don't you call it dirtbag Massachusetts because I'm saying I couldn't call it asshole Massachusetts and from that like that click at that point the book was even different than what the final product was But at that point it clicked that became my load star dirtbag Massachusetts was gonna be the heart of every essay that I put into the essay and so there's you talk a lot about various things But what struck me is I was looking at it might by the way my wife's a Massachusetts She's from Brooklyn, which is a very different than asshole Massachusetts, but but she loves her Massachusetts But it smells the same it smells good But one of the things I was surprised the importance of communal space whether it's a homeless shelter a biker bar Can you talk a little bit about you know because there's a lot of community you talk a lot about community when you're when you're writing this? Yeah, so I was raised in an unhoused shelter run by the Catholic worker And I really think if you look at my childhood on paper or you look at my whole life on paper You think those early years were the hardest whereas they were actually the best years. I felt the most loved there I felt the most community it was a wonderful progressive situation to be in and I'm so grateful my parents and I of course have complex relationships I'm so grateful for the things that they gave me one of the things was books The other things was a strong sense of community and I learned that there at the Catholic worker as I grew older I found myself drawn more and more to places basically home and the church and when I say the church I mean the institution not so much the faith but those became unsafe spaces for me places like a biker bar or I'd write I say about the armory in San Francisco those became more safe spaces for me and the reason for that was because of the community that I found there my therapist actually pointed out I was probably drawn to those places because I thought they were going to be dangerous But what they actually were were filled with kind of loving compassionate people that accepted people any which way they were and that really really Gave me a space to be myself and maybe start to grapple with some of the issues I was trying to put in the rear view mirror. Mm-hmm So in the army for people why the army in San Francisco?
So the army is a giant brick building in the heart of San Francisco It's in the Mission District and it has been many many things including a few scenes for the Millennium Falcon for Star Wars We're still there but at the time keep.com Which is a corn company that was run by a man named Peter was run out of the armory and I became a part of the community there And eventually became an actor for King Talk. They're wonderful people. I have to say that's on there many times It's a wonderful place absolutely right. Yeah fascinating what you were talking about growing up though You said a shelter correct.
Mm-hmm. Well, it's fascinating that you got through all of that I mean it just sounds that's all I have to say Well, you know I appreciate that Sean it was let me tell you I feel very lucky that that family that's that's part of the course for This book to that family kind of explodes not because the shelter but actually in some of the isolation we find ourselves and afterwards our family explodes But the book is also very much about how that family comes back together and they totally knew but still very beautiful shape Well, I can't wait to read it. It sounds funny one of the things you talked about was your own family You had five kids your mom raised you dad wasn't around the same kind of thing Yeah, dad left when I was five Isaac and we kind of parented ourselves So you I was saying to care when we first started you kind of have I still have I still wake up every day with this kind of survival mode Where it's like what I gotta I gotta like hunter gatherers I gotta go work hard to get the food to get them, you know all that kind of mentality So I can relate to those kinds of struggles and and it makes you know what kills you to make this stronger So that's kind of that's the right shot and I want you to know that I completely relate to that I think so many I'm sure Tara you have some relationship for this as well. That's what makes us such drivers We wake up with that.
Oh, all right. What am I figuring out today? How am I gonna keep the piece today? What's gonna happen next and it really is this kind of survival mentality?
I think that's such a perfect way to put it. Do you have kids Isaac? No, no, I've actually chosen to not be a parent I'm going to I wrote an essay for swire recently that's called the world needs uncles too, and it's very much about my decision I love that my siblings have had children. I love watching my parents who really did struggle being parents get to become the world's best grandparents But I myself I think I'm going to take an uncle role Yeah, that's interesting I read this quote once from the song which I really love she said I'd rather regret not having kids than have them and regret it later And that's kind of like how I feel cuz it's such a role of the dice unless you end up with brilliant kids like Kara Yeah, I have them for all of you.
I've been having children for all of you I want the things you talk about this is this unusual social spaces in this book One of the ones was you write a lot very lovely about a teenage fight club and the bonds that you create there Obviously you talk about the Catholic Church talk a little bit about that Because I just think that one of the things that we just aren't ever just talking about is the lack of community of how we're all sort of Isolated in these bubbles now and and where do we go from here? We talk about Alex Jones and the people that sort of get fed his line of horseshit for example And it works on them because people feel separate How do you talk about these social spaces that you the physical social space is not online once the internet has provided me with so much? I'm one of those people I've been essay in the book that's basically I was looking at analog porn when I was 12 and by 13 things I become very online I was born in 1983 so I'm very much of that last generation I had one one foot in the analog world and then one foot in the internet The internet provided so much for me and allowed me to meet like-minded people that I never would have met before It allowed me to build a writing community that started in San Francisco But then went out across the country working with writers from all over the place And I so love that but the fact of the matter is that allowed a lot of different people to find a lot of other different like-minded people And like you said it has created these bubbles and more and more I find myself still deep appreciation for the internet but looking to make connections offline I'm trying to walk more I'm trying to go out and just meet with friends sit with them Spend time with them I do my damn just not to look at my phone as much as I used to and part of that is I think a Lot of us are thirsty for that form of connection Especially of course after the pandemic especially of course ever being so limited in the spaces that we could be in so that is community Like we mentioned before like we touched on has always been so important to me And I think it's going to become in the next five ten years something that people are very very focused on and I'm Exactly Fighting it didn't matter it was well for that that that's what's funny about the fight club And I'm so glad you bring it back to that so I recently you know I was like oh I wasn't a very angry kid and it was my therapist was like you literally told me about how you and your Friends used to get together and fight and that's when I realized what that was about Which was you know when you push things down and you try to ignore things they bubble up in these weird ways We started this group and it was about joy. It was about fun.
It was about spending time together But what is it really about we had violence in our homes and this was our attempt to try and control it We couldn't control it in our own homes violent but rolling like a storm unexpected But when we were in this group we controlled the violence we Consented to it we agreed to it and I think that's one of the things that deeply joys with the other thing Is I think we were all very lonely and so it brought us together and it allowed us and made a space for which we could actually You know crush up against one another and touch each other and like feel that I do really think at the time if you Would just I'm like we saw a cool movie we thought it was fun But looking back at it now I see so many young men who are desperate for a connection and desperate to try and control the violence that they felt like they didn't Have control of other parts of their life when I was younger I wish that group of people would have crushed up against me Let's talk about this episode of the conventional booth and because it is vivid go ahead Isaac Yes, so that this is this is a very big moment in the book and it was It's a difficult moment to dissect and I think this is part of what I'm trying to do in the book is you want to make sure that You're facing the reality of the situation and the reality of this situation is I don't know for sure what was happening on the other side of that Lattice so I'm in the confessional. There's a metal lattice between me and the priest all I know is that at the age of 12 I was confessing many different things and none of them held this person's attention They truly were just going through the motions Yeah, and then I knowing kind of that the thing that you don't want to confess probably means it's the thing that you should I confess So basically my first sexual experience, which is I was 12 There was a 17 year old girl and she and I went into the woods and she performed oral sex and when I started to confess that It's like the whole air in the confessional changed in the priest's data and the priest was paying more attention his ears were more alert His heat is breathing became heavier and he started to ask for more details And at first I started to get that because that's an incredibly difficult situation This is why the capital church got away with the pedophilia that got away with it's why the capital church got away with the abuse That it did was because we are talking about oftentimes low-income Children or low-income families who look to the church for guidance who believe that these priests have the ear of God and thus can do no wrong And I'm sitting there saying more and more but even then at the age of 12. I knew something uncomfortable was happening again I can't tell for sure what was going on on the other side of that lattice I don't know if that was an interest that he was just taking in an audio if there's more that was happening there But I did eventually just get up and leave wow and that's really vivid scene It's a very difficult moment for me. Yeah, exactly and something I've wrestled with for a very long time Yeah, my mother and father were both involved with the church So when spotlight comes out in the early 2000s the work of the boss and globe investigative team the things that they showed Were part I was very close to all of that and my parent I remembered my mother just asked me with such a heavy card Did something happen and I'm not gonna give away too much of the book here But you can read it but but that that you know, it's a tough thing to happen to so many different Catholic indeed I think we're all Catholic yeah, I Of course when I went the confessional because they're not interested in women all they're like given the confess and I said no I've not done anything wrong and they said everyone is a sinner and I said this for you know You mean to your brother said that's not a sin I'm not saying And they were like get out of here and I was like okay good That was self-defense I was like nothing wrong with me like there's nothing wrong with me I remember those confessional where they they forced you to do them as children and then so you had to make something up I was like I don't know I pulled my sister's hair, which I didn't do I was like I don't do anything wrong like you I was like nothing well.
It's the whole thing is so crazy. Well, there is a gay thing. There is Anyway, this is a really wonderful book and you are a really wonderful writer I think that's the best part of it and it's a really it's a really fun and easy read and also full of just really vivid writing And one again, it really strikes me how you talk because you had been one of the first books editor at BuzzFeed news Which is the social media driven outlet of all time really and so it's really interesting that you talk a lot about community and creation physical community on Thing it's a wonderful book. I think a lot of people should pick it up anyway.
The book is dirtbag, Massachusetts. Thank you Isaac fixed Your own care and Sean. Thank you so much. I so appreciate it and thank you for having me on like I said big fan So thanks for having nice to meet you.
Yeah. All right, Sean one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Oh great Support for the show comes from deal.
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What is your prediction my prediction? I think this Cheney is going to lose her thing Which is not much of a prediction, but she is probably gonna run for president You know what I predict that this country is tired of the divisiveness and we're gonna come together in a community Fashionless Isaac said very soon sooner than later. Oh, I like that. That is a really that's a prediction That's a prediction.
I do think that I think everybody's sick and tired of all this bullshit Well, how's it gonna manifest itself? It's gonna manifest itself through elections. You wait and see people are gonna be like Hey, you know what? We didn't talk about this new party.
That's called forward. Yes, that's Andrew Yang. Yes Yeah, I would do that. Yeah, all right, okay That's like both sides are so crazy right now that that's right right one is more crazy than the other I have to say yes, I agree But would you do would you sign up for the forward initiative not that particular one?
But I do think a third party is really it were at that moment Who would you like to see be the next president? Oh? God, it's Stacy Abrams. Maybe I think she's really smart.
Yeah, I think Buddha judge would be great You'd like a game in the White House, wouldn't you? Wouldn't you yeah, yes, I would yes. He's a very different kind of gay than you and I think so yes, he's boy smart Leave it on that anyway anyway We want to hear from you send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind go to ny mag.com Slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot Sean that is the show I really really recommend everybody I know everyone knows you from William Grace, but your podcast is wonderful. It really is It's really great and I you're my favorite part of it.
Don't say that to the other boys. It's called smart list It's called smart list. It's on the top of all the list and it's really it's quite smart actually and quick little plug I also do another one called hypochondri actor which I do with a doctor friend of mine because I'm an actor who's hypochondriac It's a great podcast. What happened to you last week?
Pick a body part That's what it's about okay happy conjure actor with Sean Hayes listen and you're a wonderful podcast I'm glad I bugged you that time to do it because you're really such a clever man Thank you. I wouldn't be here without your good advice. Yes. No you would you would anyway.
Yes, you would just got Galloway No, absolutely not actually I was not sold for 500 25 million without my help But you you thrive whatever you do anyway. We'll be back on Friday for more I will read us out Sean Today show was produced by Lara Naaman Evan angle and Taylor Griffin Ben Woods engineer this you can keep talking to me Well, make sure you subscribe to the show Podcast thanks for listening to pivot from New York magazine and Fox Media We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business and Sean Hayes Mud Sam snow the track places where excuses don't work Where capability is something you prove one race at a time off-road racing formula one different worlds that pose the same question What are you made of? Every ground is our proving ground ready set forward once upon a dismal day Bob's ice cream man looks gloomy and gray Although he had big ambitions his social lacked creative vision that bad maybe that bad I have an idea Bob launched canvas and got into gear create the video in a vampire team to make it the funniest I mean it went viral Bob's business. I will buy long Imagine what your dreams can become you put imagination to work at canva.com