Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle: Intimacy, Cheating & Starting Over

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Carrie the Fire, a podcast from the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation, is back with 10 new episodes. Subscribe and share to help create a world free from the fear of cancer. It is your founding father, Alex Cooper. We call her.

Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Yes. We made it. Wait, I'm thinking about your daughter right now and we're like, yeah, they made it.

Yeah, they made it. Okay, so she's a fan? She is freaking out today. This is the best day.

She thinks we're finally cool. She said, mums, you know that that's where cool people go. She said, just tell them that you'll be their aunties. That's what she said.

Yes, yes. I love it. Well, I'm happy you're here. I was going to say, like, to anyone watching.

We've virtually met because you guys obviously came on my Paris Olympics show virtually. So this is the first time we're meeting in person and I'm honored to have you guys here. How are you doing today? How are you?

I'm great. I'm having a good day. I didn't have to work other work because this is the work. And so that this is the best kind of work where you don't have to sit on a computer and make calls and get on meetings.

So I'm so happy to be here, you know, being not just a fan of you, but like watching you kind of blossom and grow and you began from the soccer world. It just, I don't know, you're doing incredible stuff. And I just want to acknowledge that unwell, the sponsor of the NWSL, we're owners of the of the Angel City team. So just a job.

You're doing great. I really appreciate that. I think like it was almost like a part of my life that I never really got to bring forward when I got into media because it didn't make sense. Like the call her daddy girl when I was talking about sex and relationships, like also played soccer and was like a competitive athlete.

I'm like, those aren't making sense, but I knew at one point I would be able to bring that part of my life forward because the honest truth is I did that way longer than I did call her daddy. Like, since I was so young playing soccer, you know how it goes. And so it's a part of your identity that feels weird. I'm well to get to you, but like when you retire and when you're away from it, you're like, who am I without this thing?

So it's been incredible to get back into it. And I feel like I literally called my mom. I was like, I feel like a part of me is back. Like I feel like I'm alive again and it's just, it's amazing.

And to be sitting with you, I mean, Abby, like, no, your kid thing. I'm cool. Growing up. Are you fucking kidding me?

Sorry for my language. I just wanted to be you and you are so fucking talented and all the things. And so yes, about onto you, soccer, fucking God. That's sweet.

Thank you. Um, you guys, your book, first of all, congratulations. I know obviously you've written numerous books, but like we can do hard things. Doing it together.

Congratulations. What inspired you guys to do this? We had a doozy of a year within the year. Abby lost her brother, Peter.

I was diagnosed with anorexia, which I've been dealing with eating disorders since I was 10. So this was just the latest round. And my sister, who does the podcast with us was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I think we just, we depend on each other so much, the three of us.

And you know how when you have a small group, usually one of you keeps your shit together when the other two are losing it. Right. Like you have somebody who has a clue, but we just all lost at the same time. And to survive, we started sending each other like little clips of things or little quotes.

And then we started keeping them in files and they just became like these really helpful anchoring places. And we sent it to a friend and she wrote back and said, can you make this sort of file for every category of life for me? And we were like, huh? Cause it feels like sometimes the harder life gets the more you forget everything you know, like it's a really bad system, like you should remember them.

But there's a little bit of dissociation that comes with trauma. And I think that's what we figured out. One, I'm so sorry. Two, beautiful, because I feel like the hardest moments in life is really when you have to look inward.

And like you said, you lose your way. You're like, what am I doing? And what is happening? But there's a recalibration that happens because you have to go so deep in her strength.

And then you know who's the closest person to you. You're like, Oh, wow, I really know I'm in love or I really know this person, my sister, my family, whoever it be, that's there for you. If they really stand up, you're like, that is such an incredible support system that I've built for myself. And some people then come to realize like, well, fuck, I don't need this person in my life.

They weren't there for me in a moment where I really needed them. So much of the wisdom you poured into this, I think is so applicable to my audience. So I kind of want to just like go through it all. Yes.

Let's go back to the beginning though, because I want to get to know you guys better and through that, we're going to obviously get the wisdom. Abby, growing up, you were the youngest of seven kids. Can you describe your personality as a kid when you were younger? Great question.

So being the youngest of a big family, for me, I had seven six older brothers and sisters who all were very sports centric. My two oldest sisters played all the sports. My brothers played all the sports. And so I grew up like watching, like observing them.

I was a pretty athletic kid. I was like jumping off the diving board at like two and I scored 27 goals in my first three soccer games. And it's because I was competing against like older people, my whole life, you know, like I was playing against my brothers playing against my sisters. And they never like just let me win.

They were just like always like blocking the ball for me and like being their age, not just like bowing down to the little kid. And I think that part of like what made me so good is this desire, this like insatiable desire to win, to prove myself that I was like one of them. And with that also came a lot of probably not healthy behaviors. Um, but I do think that there was a part of me that as a kid, I was just like pretty risk taking, I was fearless.

Like they would call it Abby Alert. I would just like run away. I was like, hide. I didn't like have a ton of fear that that troubled me.

So, and then I had athleticism. My brothers and sisters even now tell me like you were ripped, like you had triceps and quads and stuff at two. And I'm like, is that possible? I'm like, yes.

So I guess I was just like this rambunctious kid who. And now after much therapy and looking back was just really vying for the attention of my mom, really like seven people were vying for that attention, not possible. I mean, I'm glad they had seven kids because I wouldn't be here otherwise, but it was hard. It was hard emotionally for, I think a more sensitive kid than I think I was allowed to be.

Would you say that that? I know you don't, you didn't know me then, but you know enough. I dissociated after you said I did not have a lot of fear that troubled me. I cannot understand that.

So it's like, honey, what the hell? What's that? Unless you like, I only have fear that troubles me. Gwyneth, we're getting to you.

Go back. Go back. I'm sorry. Carry on.

That's beautiful. Like, oh, my God, it's so beautiful. I hate you. What?

Give me some of that. No, that's so because like I was thinking, even when you're saying that two things, one, I think whenever we just have these, like, I have these memories of you on the field and these like just iconic historic moments of you pushing through where so many people must just have been like, how the fuck is she still standing and alive on this field and still going and still bringing it and then getting that backstory of you being like, oh, I've literally been doing this since I opened my eyes and could walk and breathe. And I'm the youngest and I think about only two above me. I'm like thinking about you being the youngest.

That's what I was going to ask you is like how much of what you were doing was you just trying to get attention from your parents because a huge family and being the youngest, you're kind of just like getting tagged along a lot of the times and you're never getting the first backpack or getting the hand me down. You know what I mean? So there's a lot of you're just kind of having to go with the flow. Do you think that that has impacted your personality as an adult?

Yes. And it's actually, I've called myself a recovering professional athlete for the last 10 years, granted I'm also sober. So I'm a recovering alcoholic as well. But having the experience that I had in my childhood, it gave me, I think, an edge in a way being a professional athlete, but I think it was like a maladaptive way of living as a normal person.

And the way that I've been thinking about it recently is I thought being extraordinary was the way, was the path to getting the quote unquote mother's love and attention that I think I was seeking. And with that approach, I was able to win gold medals and I was able to win world championships for our country, but I got to the top of that mountain and there was no there, there was no more, like I could get no more attention for what I was doing, literal. And maybe you have experience with this that, oh, I was seeking this extraordinary life, this extraordinary effort, gold Olympics. And honestly, like I gave myself the anthem to value it, however long it takes for the national anthem to play and the gold medal was just put around my neck and I would step off the podium.

And my first thought was like, I want to do that again. Like, there's a, the repetitive nature of professional sport and the new season and the next thing that wasn't conducive to true peace. And I think that when I met Glennon and I got three kids, the, the drive towards the ordinary has allowed me to actually experience extraordinary coming into my life because it's being the extraordinary is coming in in a foundation that's built on true ordinary. That's incredible.

Yeah. And I, and I, I assume that you probably have a lot of, of, of relatability to this, given where you're at in your life and in your career, it's just something to explore, like, what am I actually driving toward? And, and when I get there, assuming you've gotten there, Alex, yeah. Will I, like, am I asking myself the right questions to live a life that I really want?

Like, what's the end game here? And that's something that Glennon was really good at helping me craft. Like, what is enough? What are we doing here?

And in, in, in, in of itself, like this book that we've made asks ourselves, it's, it's, it's written in 20 different questions in 20 different chapters so that you can start asking ourselves the questions. Like, what am I doing? Like, what is the whole point? Why are we here?

All of it. Everything you just said, I relate to, yes, you're right. You're like seeing right through me. I, I, we just met, but I can, I feel out.

I, I so relate to so many things you're saying. And I agree with the athlete thing of like there's an identity crisis, but it, you're also made to feel as though if you are going for something so big and so valued and so many people are going to look at you in this high regard and you just keep doing it and you just keep winning and it's so addictive. Like it is, it's an addictive thing that then when you are sitting at home and really what you learn is it's actually kind of more beautiful when you have just people around you and it's longevity and love and care and kindness and all that in house, but you're like, why is it quiet? Why is this boring?

What's wrong? Like, I'm, I'm a loser now. I'm just sitting here and all my athletic ability and what. And then it's like, no, no, no, this is actually peace and this is beautiful and it's not normal to every waking day.

Like, I have to one up with myself. I have to keep doing it. That can drive you insane and can also drive you to be depressed because then you're like, where I need that high? Like, where is it?

Where is it? And then you start to look for it elsewhere, pausing on us, Glennon, then I'm thinking about you, like, how was your family dynamic growing up different than what Abby is describing hers was? Oh, I mean, we were a small family, which is my sister and I and my parents. How was it different?

There was a lot less going on. We were like kind of a little island. I was raised by a football coach though. So I do know more about sports than I went on.

Yeah. Yeah. But my sister and I were just, I mean, sometimes when I go to Abby's house, it's actually quite hard for me because I don't, it's, it's, I'll say to Abby, I talked to everyone, but I didn't get to know anyone better at all. And I don't understand.

We're just like saying things to each other, but we're not like learning about each other. It's okay. So I just feel like I go in and then it's a swirling and then I leave. Yeah.

Welcome to a big family. Yeah. What am I doing? Your head is spinning and you're like, this is normal.

Yeah. Abby's like, what are you talking about? We got so deep. We got to know that this one's dating this one.

Like, well, you're like, but we didn't get into like the mental like emotional. We didn't sit on the couch and talk for an hour and get deep. Like, I get it. I get it.

What insecurities, I know you kind of mentioned, obviously, this past year that you recognize that you were diagnosed with in Erexia, but back when you were in high school, can you talk to me about the insecurities that you struggled with? I don't know. I just remember feeling completely exposed and confused in high school. Like I didn't know who to sit with or how to be.

And I actually ended up, I became believe it when I was 10. By the time I was a senior in high school, I ended up leaving school to actually go spend time in a residential treatment center. Now they have excellent eating disorder clinics. But back then it was like, you just started in sort of a mental hospital.

And I really felt like the mental hospital was much sainer than high school. I did. I felt like, bear, you know, I felt like, oh, this is where we're able to tell the truth. And we do art and we talk about feelings and we're all there's rules about how to be kind to each other.

Actually very much like 12 step meetings now. I love a 12 step meeting. I need a 12 step meeting. I need like a moment of truth where everyone's telling the truth about how hard and messy life is before I go out into the world and like adult and act like everything's fine.

I know you were so young, but do you remember the first time you remember feeling like uncomfortable with your body? Yes. Oh, I've my whole life. I've spent uncomfortable with my body.

I when Abby and I first got married, I would get dressed to go out and I would say, do I look comfortable? And she would say, I think that's something people have to answer for themselves. But really, I think I have spent a lot of time dissociated, like not in my own body. I live in my mind a lot.

And this last eating disorder recovery has been a lot about living in my body, which sounds so weird, but has been an interesting process for me. I know. Sometimes I'll walk into the bedroom and she'll be like in bed and she'll be in like the most uncomfortable position that a body can be in. And I'm like, are you comfortable?

She's like, I don't know. So she walks over like a range is all the way. Fix the pillow. And she's like, oh, yeah, that feels much better.

Yeah. And you're changing your clothes like 15 times just to feel more yourself. Yeah. I do that like 10 times a day.

It's very interesting. I don't know when you're able to look back at like dissociating and obviously the bleem, you know, do you have you recognized the through line of what was going on in your life at that young age? Yeah. So I think the difference between this round of eating disorder recovery and all the low so many other ones I've been part of is that I think I kept my recovery in my head, which means that I said, obviously it's culture.

It's misogyny. It's this world we live in and I kept it very intellectual. And I think for the first time I'm actually doing like family of origin work this time. And I think that there was just a lot of anxiety and anger in my home that manifested in very controlling, angry energy that for a sensitive kid like me, I think my body in my environment wasn't a safe place to me.

And so I just decided that my mind was a safer place to live. Wow. This is what happens. If you can send me this recording, I'm going to get it right to my therapist.

So I feel like we're nailing it, Alex. We are. We are nailing it. Yeah, I think that's what happened.

And so my mind not here is my safe place. That's why I can't tell when I'm not comfortable or I, you know, so reminding myself that I am safe now, like, I think half of being a grown up is just reminding your nervous system that you're in a different environment now. And you are safe and you've created a life for yourself where there's safe people around you and you can just relax. And that's what I mean.

Honestly, that's what my marriage to Abby has been. It's been the opposite of everything that I learned when I was little. It's just like absolute. Peace and safety.

That's so beautiful though, because so many people are not even fortunate to say that to be like a lot of times we repeat patterns and there's so many people like, Oh my God, I did marry my dad. Fuck like, got to redo this one now. Like that's, this is not working. And you being able to recognize like there was this feeling in your home that was unsafe and made you not want to be in your body.

And I think a lot of people like obviously with eating disorders, I have a lot of people in my life, like a lot of it stems from control. And that was the one thing you could control. And so now that you're able to explore this, I think it's beautiful and having a partner that's sitting next to you that's like, I'm going to be there every step of the way for you. So you feel safe because going through therapy and uncovering things from childhood is, I don't even have a word for it.

It's like you're rewatching for some people like a nightmare that you don't want to open up and for you to have someone that's just like there to guide you and even as cute as is you walking, like, are you comfortable? Can I adjust the pillows? It's no, it's, it's you need someone like that. You can't no one can go through this shit alone.

And that's what's so beautiful about this. Did you though, Abby, when you know I'm talking about it with you, like I'm thinking about being an athlete and there's such a fixation on our bodies as athletes and at every different stage, whether it's the early days to then obviously when you get like later on, did you struggle when you were younger at all with your body? I never had like, I ate too much. That was my problem, which I know is a form of a knee disorder.

I have a healthy case of body dysmorphia though, in that I'm sad that my body doesn't look like it used to all the time. So I do, you know, I have to, I have to be very careful on what I eat and work out and walk because I can no longer run because my ankles are almost up. So I never really, I haven't experienced what Glennon experiences on a daily basis. And I think it's important that like what you said around her having an environment where she feels safe to explore this stuff.

And I think one of the things that a lot of us really run into almost all the time when we think about going back to our childhood is that now if we go back to our childhood, this now I'm deeming my parents awful people, people that are unlovable. And it's just not true. Like you can love your parents and appreciate for them trying their best because I do believe that there's a lot of our parents out there, mine included that they did their best and it was just maybe not enough. And they are people too.

And they had parents that might not have had the education or understanding that we have now. And so don't let that fear of blaming or pointing towards a childhood prevent you from exploring that part of yourself. It's so real because I'm like, oh, I don't have kids yet, but I can imagine you guys feel this way. You're like, oh, I can't wait to find out how we fucked them up.

Like they're going to come. And no one's like, it's perfect. Everyone feels. And again, it's, I love that you're saying that because there are some parents where it's like, whoa, this is like objectively you fuck these people.

But then there's also parents where it's like, yeah, you did your best. And I still have things from my childhood that really affected me as a human being that I can say that out loud. And it doesn't mean that you are this horrible human being. I, yeah, both things can be true.

Did you though, Abby, like in your high school days, like did you have any insecurities that you were dealing with that you felt like you weren't able to be open about with people? Yeah. I mean, I was a queer kid. I wore backward, backwards hats, flannels.

I went to an all girls Catholic high school and played sports. So, but I was straight. I had a boyfriend in high school, really, really scared. I grew up in like a smaller town in Rochester, New York.

And, you know, yeah, I was, I was really struggling because I'd sat so many days of my life in the church pews. And my mom was, she's a very big church person. I was born and raised Catholic. And I was just like soaking up all of this energy towards what I knew that I couldn't say out loud.

And I spent a lot of my time in the closet, not only for my family, but for myself. And I think it's, it's almost laughable now because when I look back at my teenage high school self, I was like the most butch lesbian you've ever known. I mean, if I could have no gay dark, if I could have had this haircut, then I would have. But no, I had like a long ponytail and only word in a ponytail, slick back ponytail all the time.

And then another thing ended up happening where we have we have queer kids and one of them came out to us. And it was like the most special thing that ever happened to me in my whole life, because instantly what happened is I got scared. And I had this panic, this fear inside of me. And it made we talked at nauseam about this, Glenn and I like, oh, it made me understand that my mom wasn't afraid of me.

She was afraid for me because the world, especially in like the late 90s was not what it is today. Queerness was not cool, especially being a queer lesbian was not cool. It was like this underground mysterious place that you had to like go find. And and now I understand like, oh, as a parent, we want our kids to have a good life and not not feel afraid of things.

And I think that. And now I've gotten over that fear because like our kids are just happy and they are proving that acceptance is truth and acceptance is the way forward. I the Catholic Church, I agree, there's like, there is growing up when you're so young and you're watching something and you're hearing something. Like I remember like hearing about sex as I'm sitting in those pews being like, okay, so I'll basically die.

And I do this before marriage got it. Like whoa. And then like after I did, I was like, am I going to die? I'm like, wow, this is great.

Yeah, God. Can we talk about you guys both kind of talked about earlier, but you both talked about like using alcohol to cope in ways. When did you realize, oh, I think I have a different relationship to alcohol than my peers and my friends around me? You both talked about like using alcohol to cope in ways.

When did you realize, oh, I think I have a different relationship to alcohol than my peers and my friends around me? I always had that thing in me that it was never enough. Never. And I remember seeing people leave a beer, a half beer or a half glass of wine and be like, what is wrong with that?

Like, how is that? How is that? How is that humanly possible? And then I just, you know, they say about you, it's not how much you drink.

It's like how you drink. Like, I just had a situation where every time I drank, which was all every night, my whole life fell apart. Like, I would, I remember just sitting in my dorm room, just waiting for someone to call to return my keys, my wallet, my way. Just every day, it was like, it was how I drank.

Like, I noticed that my friends didn't, their lives didn't fall apart. They didn't do crazy things. They didn't lose everything. It was a way of being around alcohol that I knew in the back of my mind.

This isn't right. Abby, what was the moment for you that you knew you needed to get sober? Well, I had many. Being a professional athlete, I had a, I had like a kind of a secret personal life that not many people knew about.

And this was totally a part of it. And I think being an athlete too, I just took on that persona that I just, I, I went hard all the time in every aspect of my life, except school. I was the athlete. I went to parties.

That's what I did. I went to college and then I became a soccer player and started playing on the national team. And so then I started to like create these time periods where I could do it, like my time's off. So I would never really drink in, in, in camp.

But when I'd have the weekend off or a week off, I would, I would rage for five, five of those seven days. And throughout a whole career of doing this 15, 20 years, it starts to take its toll. And then I start getting more injured, getting older, starting to use prescription meds, those get kind of out of control. I'm leaning towards my retirement from sport.

And then I get the DUI and that was the most important thing that ever happened to me. I get a DUI. My mugshot is on the ESPN ticker for like seven straight days. And it was like the thing that like woke me up.

And I was like, whoa, my life is way worse because of alcohol. And for a lot of my life, it was what I was telling myself, it was way better. I'm having all this fun and doing all this fun things and hanging out with all these amazing people. And I have not had a drink since that night.

I got arrested and it's one of the things I've been sober for almost nine years now. I just hit nine years and everything really powerfully good in my life has happened in my sobriety. And I won gold medals as a high functioning alcoholic and a lot of professional athletes struggle with this stuff. And they don't do it publicly and I get that.

And there's more support for and mental health support for pro athletes now than there was when I was going through. But I was just, you know, I was just really kind of suffering, not knowing if I was doing life right. Like there were that like I didn't know. I thought that that was like that was the only way.

And I didn't literally know a single sober person until I met Glennon. Like I didn't know a single person that was sober in my life until I met her. And now I think, wow, I'm so proud that our kids will never ever see me intoxicated. I'm so proud that I have built a life that feels not boring.

My biggest concern was like, it's going to be so boring. What the fuck am I going to do? And the truth is when you have three children, there's a lot to do all the time every day. I think you're.

And so and then we're both full time working people. And so there's a lot that I wouldn't be able to have the life that I have now had it not been for me getting sober. I wouldn't I would probably miss Glennon. This whole thing would never, you know, so it's like when I look back, it's like my life just got exponentially better.

Being sober. I think that's also really helpful to hear when you say like you didn't know anyone that was sober. I think there's a lot of people that probably are having the same exact experience as you in terms of struggling with alcohol. But like that fun factor, they genuinely believe life won't be fun.

And am I going to be like the odd man out where people are going to look at me and I'm the only one that doesn't drink? And I feel like, yes, that is fair to think. But once you start living it, like you're testing, maybe like, wait, you guys, it's literally great. Like I'm totally and of course it's hard.

It doesn't mean it's not hard when you're going through this. But the social element, I also think people are way more loving and giving in moments where we think we're going to get judge also, depending on who you're hanging out with or can be assholes that are pressuring you. But for the most part, if you're around people that are good people, people just want the best for you. People are going to meet you where you're at if you're around the right people.

And I'll just say this, like, first of all, you spend so much less money. I couldn't believe how much a dinner was without alcohol. It was insane. I was like, this is great, big bonus.

And then I think to like just go home a little bit earlier, like once your friends start to get louder and they repeat their first story, that's your Irish goodbye moment. Like, bye bye. Get out of there. They'll never remember.

And they'll be like, where's so, so whatever. And then repeat that story that they had just repeated to you that made you want to walk out. So real. They won't care.

They won't care. Do you feel like your any of your teammates were kind of catching on? Because I know that there's a big secrecy element, but it only can last four. So long like, how do you think it impacted your relationships?

Yeah, I definitely know that my teammates were worried about me. One of them got the phone call that I got arrested from a friend and or a text. Did you hear about Abby and they thought that I died? Oh, yeah.

And they that was their first thought that Abby got in an accident or something happened. She's dead. And I wasn't far off. Like I wasn't far off from that happening.

It's actually super. I'm very, I feel very lucky that I'm still here. I think that they all and this is the problem of being a veteran and being the person that I was is I was kind of a senior captain. I think that there was this element of Abby's going to be fine.

She'll take care of it. And yeah, like it has it definitely has changed a lot of my relationships and friendships from that time. I had to create a whole different life for myself. I had to I had to save my life.

I had to leave a lot of that behind. But it's really awesome that when I get to reconnect with some of my teammates who will be friends with for life. They get to see this different, more grounded, present, not always thinking about what are we going to like? How are we going to what are we going to do?

Like, let's go. Let's party. Like I was like that person that they kind of knew and they have to kind of get more acquainted with the new me, which is a little bit more quiet, a little bit more subdued. I still like to tell a good story.

In fact, one of my former teammates, we got together. It was one of our 40th one of our former teammates, 40th birthday. And we were at dinner and she just looked at me. She's like, I like this version of you.

And it meant so much to me. Like I kind of got emotional at the table because like that's a fear. Like when you change your life so dramatically, you change your relationships because of it. If you change yourself so dramatically, your relationships shift.

Of course they do. And you wonder like, will they like me as this person? And so it was nice to get that affirmation from her. And at the end of the day, like we've built a life as a family together that, you know, if you were to have children one day, like your family and your kids become your source of everything.

And so yes, your friends and their opinions of you, like it matters on some level, but like also like the things that matter the most is like, what am I? What does my wife think? Like am I doing? Am I doing okay?

Am I doing okay? You're doing great. You know, in speaking about your wife, can we talk about how the two of you met? Because when I was doing my research, I was like, wait, this is like a fucking epic story, you guys.

No, this is like, it's hot and cute and I am obsessed. Okay. So you release a book, Miss Glennon, you release a book and this book is about your husband at the time he had cheated and you write about finding out he cheated and you're you're going to stay. Yes.

And you go to a book event, tell me the story. What happens? So yeah, so I am, I've just gotten sober. I'm also releasing my first book, my memoir.

And this is a librarians convention event and essentially what happens, and people might not know this. I did not know this librarians come together in a convention every year and then then authors come up and kind of pitch their books and to sell their books to all the libraries of the United States. And so that's what this event was. So I walk in and I'm a little bit late, which never happens.

And so I'm like a little bit flustered and I walk into the back room of this convention where the rest of the librarians or the authors were eating dinner. And I walk into this room and on the way to the event, I should say I checked out who the other authors were going to be. So I could like know their names and you know, and I saw Glennon and I knew nothing about Glennon and I just read her like little blurb and it was like sober. You know, mother of three, the book was about the redemption of her marriage through infidelity, et cetera.

And I was like, Oh, perfect. Like she's sober. Maybe she'll know how to do sobriety. I've never met a sober person.

Literally. And so I walk in this room and all of a sudden I look up and Glennon is standing. Everybody else is sitting. She has stand got to her feet and stretched her arms like this.

She's all the way across the room and I'm like, okay, well, that's that's Glennon. The one I want to meet. This is great. Like she knows me.

She thinks I'm cool. So we'll get to have a conversation. But I like she's around the table. So weird.

It was weird. Everyone was like, why is she standing up? It was really weird. Yeah.

It was a bizarre. Well, then I. And then yeah, you know what to do because now I'm stuck up here. And I so let me let me get standing here to hug her at a long table full of authors.

And I stood up like this. Like, like, and then she's awkward. And she goes, I thought maybe if I bow people will think I just bow when people walk in rooms, I lost control of my Glennon. Glennon, wait, Abby, she's basically standing up like the fucking Lion King.

And then she's bowing. What are you thinking? What are you thinking this moment? And why are you telling?

Yeah, it was what it was something. I think it was one of the weirdest moments of my life. But I think it was a moment where I was in my body. Like I really do I thought of this a million different ways because it's so weird.

And there was a lot of writers at the table who still talk about it and try to get me to explain what happened. I didn't know Abby. Of course, I did not follow the soccer. I did not.

But she walked in the room and I was like, holy shit, like something just took over my body. And I called it at the moment, love it for sight, but I don't think that's what I think it was desire. And I think for somebody who lives in their head, I had never I just had relationships with people who I thought made sense to have relationships with. Like that seems like a good like I just never felt it in my body.

And so it was the best way I can explain it. It was it was just a moment where my body was like, there she is. You better get your ass up. This is an important moment in your body was at all romantic way.

Like I just never was like a very sexual being because I just felt like I used to think of sex as something you do like how you have to get the oil change. Just you just do it. So the car doesn't break down and people don't start to say why are you having sex with me? And like you just have to do it to like keep things running smoothly.

I know. So I didn't before that moment, even know what it felt like to be like sexually alive. So I think it was a moment of my first moment of sexual aliveness, although I would not have had a librarian. I know like you're like, I'm getting turned on.

Like fuck your shit. I never had a relationship with a woman or kiss. I'd never you didn't know any sober people. I didn't know he gave people.

Yeah. Yeah, basically. I mean, Christian, I was a Sunday school teacher. And it was so interesting because this moment happens and I have to go over to hug her because she's standing makes it so awkward.

I'm like, okay. So I hug and then I have to go sit in my seat, which is like around the table, not next to her. And I'm just like, there's something happening that I can't fully explain because I keep looking at her and I'm like, huh, like that's something is happening here. And then we get seated next to each other on the dais on the platform.

What does it call the dais? And the woman who was working for me at the time, I have to sign some autographs after the event. She unbeknownst to me because the whole time when Glennon got up to speak, I was like, I can speak in front of a crowd of people, no problem. And I was like fumbling my words.

I was like, nervous. I was like, Oh my gosh, get me out of here. And Glennon gets up and she speaks and she's like, so eloquent and perfect. And I was just like looking at her like the whole time.

And so after the event, I'm like meeting with with some booksellers and my, my assistant at the time went up to Glennon and said, I don't know why I'm saying this. And I don't know what is going on, but Abby needs you in her life. I was like, got it. I'm in.

I'm not hard to get. Like I have been sexually awoken. What me? First of all, did you feel at all like at this point she's married to a man?

Are you like wondering at all? Like, could this even be like, would she even be interested? Or are you not even thinking romantic yet? I am curious.

Okay. And as a lesbian woman who grew up in the 90s, 80s and 90s where a lot of the people that I have been with in my life were previously straight and then went back to being straight, just the way it goes for some of us. I was, I was side eyeing her around like, what's going on here? Something was happening.

I felt it. And so then I went back into my hotel room that night and I read her book. And I got to the end of that fucking book and I was like, you fucking stay together? That can't be.

I was like, heartbroken. I was like, oh, and I, by the way, I'm the slowest reader in the whole world. I read from like 10 p.m. Till 3 a.m.

To try to figure out what was going to happen with this. And I was like devastated. I was like, oh my gosh. And then a few days later she emails me.

What does this email say? Give me the gist. OK, so I think so on the day as Abby had told me that her, her people wanted her to write her memoir as like a Captain America story, like shiny, no problems. Here I'm Abby Wumbock.

I hadn't finished it yet. No, right. Yeah. And then she said, I, but I feel like maybe I want to tell the real truth about the DUI and the drinking and the persecution drugs.

Yeah. And she was so upset. She felt like her drinking was like this big dark secret that no one could know. But she's from like shiny sports world and I'm a writer and an artist.

I'm like, so what? Everyone is not like that's not. And I said, you're leaving that world and you're entering the real world and in the real world, be like real people. So of course you you show people who you are and great advice, by the way.

So the email that I sent, I think I was like pretending that I just would be your like spiritual guide. I was just like, you need some help. Like, Hey, I'm the one you met from the library. Although I do remember that when we read the first sentence of the email, it said, I don't know much about you.

I do know a little bit about men's soccer because my husband is a fan, but I do feel like I'm overmen in general. So that was not hiding. That was not subtle. Right.

Remember how much I just like scoured all of these emails looking for clues for now. Like, who's she trying to say here? Right. You say you're overmen as you're like married to this man.

Abby's like, huh, interesting. So when throughout this email process, do you think each of you recognize this is turning romantic? Good question. Well, it's weird because at the time she was going on her book, she was about to go on like this the whole giant book tour.

Oprah just picked it for a book club pick as like the marriage redemption story. That's how it was being sold all over the place. And I guess we went from email to like started texting and honestly, like instantly when we started texting, then we had like a phone call. And I think this like honestly, and this is the gods honest truth.

The second we felt like that we communicated that there were real feelings happening, she said, I got to talk to Craig. We this I can't do this. Well, first I went to a therapist, my therapist. I sat down with my therapist and told her the whole thing.

I said, I think I'm in love with this woman. I, I, she had been with me through the marriage. I said, I cannot. I cannot have sex with my husband again.

Like I can't, something about my body, like we hadn't even been in the same room together besides that, but I just couldn't do it. And she said, I understand what you're saying about not being able to have sex with him anymore. Have you considered just doing, giving blowjobs because many women find that to be less intimate. My therapist said that to me and Alex, that was the moment.

I was like, as God is my witness, I will never give a blowjob. I don't know much, but I freaking know that much. And so it was something about that woman looking at me and saying, squash this. It's not real.

Just give blowjobs the rest of your life where I was like, Oh, no, thank you. No, no, no. But then right after that, you were like, I have to talk to Craig. Yes.

Okay. Yes. What did you say? I just said, I mean, we had been through so much and this man is an amazing father and we married each other because it was the right thing to do not because we were right for each other and we both knew that.

And in retrospect, when I think about how we got married, I really railroaded it. Like I was scared. I was freshly sober. I was pregnant.

And I thought we got to do this. And I ignored every terrified looking at his eyes like I can. We weren't ready, but he did the best he could. And I, and there was infidelity and it was messy.

But I just remember thinking, I don't know this man the rest of my life, but I do owe him the truth about now. So I just said, I am in love with a woman. And there was a lot of silence. And then a week later, we told the kids and we had not even tested.

We had not been together except that one night we blew it all up. Just fucking just never even kids. You never. Okay.

Hold on. No, hold on. Hold on. Did that freak you out a little?

No. No. Yeah. You're like, let's go.

You were waiting for a girl, a straight girl to blow up her whole life and choose you. I was and I'll go back. Yes. I was waiting for it.

But like, here's the thing. Everything about this story, a sane person would be like, this is, this is not correct. You should probably slow down. This is, you should do this a different way.

And I totally get that, but there was everything in my total body and knowing. And I think it was true for you, Glenn, and too, that it was like, this is where I'm supposed to be. This is the person that I'm supposed to build a life with. How did your family react to you being like, I'm with a woman now.

So I remember texting my sister who was my person. We are inseparable from a dressing room at the mall. And I just said, I am in love with Abby Wambach. Dropping sentences.

It's like hard to, there's no lead in that's going to make it better. So just. And then she's like, yeah, we all are like, during the club. I just get it.

I'm just kidding. I'm like, oh, yeah, like you're getting into soccer. Right. Cool.

I guess about time, like, no, finally. Yeah. And I said, I'm in love with Abby Wambach and I will never be able to be with her. And I'm brokenhearted.

And she wrote back and it was like, you know, when you're like, staring at the dots, like what is coming? And she said, well, you have spent too much of your life brokenhearted. And it was just like her immediate way of saying, all right, let's go. No, we're not going to land on just brokenhearted.

Like, let's, that's hard. Let's choose the other heart. So she was just, there was a lot to work through, but she was just immediately like, let's do this. Can you share with me once you guys got into this relationship?

Everyone brings a little bit of baggage from their past, obviously, and you haven't gotten cheated on. How did that impact your guy's relationship with? Okay. I hit the motherload.

I'm like, okay, how did it impact your guys' relationship with trust? Everyone brings a little bit of baggage from their past, obviously, and you haven't gotten cheated on. How did it impact your guys' relationship with trust? So I have never been in a relationship that I wasn't cheated on.

Okay. Every single one of them, all of them. And I never know. I never know until I know.

So I went into this relationship having part of myself. No, that was not happening again. And I don't think I would have been able to explain this at the time, but I think I felt like, okay, well, I can't control whether it's going to happen, but I can control whether I'm just totally and I leave it by it. Like I can control whether I'm surprised by it.

I just won't be surprised by it because that's the part I can't handle. So a lot of things happen, but one day Abby was in the shower and she got out too fast, like faster than her normal shower. She got out too fast. I weren't too fast for a year.

And she opened our door and I was on her phone in bed on her phone looking through her phone. And I really like having the moral high ground. I don't know what to do in that exact sort of situation. I wanted to die.

And we just both stared at each other for a second. And then she says, she says, Oh, honey, what else do you need? Do you need my email passwords? Like what?

What else do you need to feel safe? I've also been cheated on. And so like it was this moment that I was like, huh? Okay.

This is not about me. I know what I'm doing and I'm not doing anything weird. I'm like the most boring person in the whole wide world. I can confirm that based on my my.

She's boring. Yeah. Come on. And I think like, I don't know.

I just think that it's really in that moment, it's really she's trying to soothe something, a fear that's happening. And I recognize that immediately. And of course you have that fear. I can't be mad at you for for being scared.

Yeah, I was really scared. That's something that has happened in your life. And one of the vows that we have made, especially since we've gotten married, because we did actually make vows, is like we don't want to use each other's weaknesses against each other. Like that's that's something that is a tender spot.

And it's a tender spot to me too. So like when these things kind of come up, we can't use it against each other. Cause like I could have, and I know I've not been like this in my life. This is probably sobriety really helping me be like, what the fuck?

Like when you're not sober, you're keeping secrets. Like they might not be cheating secrets, but you're keeping secrets. Like that's how you stay alcoholic. Like it's the secrets that take you down.

So in my sobriety, I was just like, yeah, like what do you want? You want my email passwords? Luckily, I can never remember passwords. So that wouldn't have helped me.

And I didn't need all of that. It was just that moment of like such kindness and such. I think it got just better after that. Did it?

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Have you been looking at my phone? Not since Tuesday.

But now, but now we have every each other's passwords to everything. Like, like I can open her computer with my fingerprint. Like the whole thing. I also love what you guys talked about with the phone and the trust thing, because I have had so many people come on and it hasn't been the reaction that you've given.

Abby, which I can imagine there is a level of anger for sure. Someone has where it's like, you don't trust me. Why are you going through my stuff? But to be met with such grace and love, that makes now sense.

Why Glenn? And then you're like, Oh, then I never need to do it again. Cause when they also blow up, it does give you even more pause as a person looking through being like, Well, what are you freaking out about? And what is there to hide?