Aristophanes' The Clouds | The New Thinkery Ep. 53

Welcome back to the new thing. I'm David Barr and today is a special episode. Greg died, ladies and gentlemen. That's right.

Greg McBrayer has died and it's just myself and Alex. Did his son beat him to death? His son beat him to death. He doesn't have children.

Well, he's a pale face. Yeah, yeah. He doesn't have children that we recognize as having human form, but what he did with those animals. Half man, half cheese.

Man, bear pig. What's up? Nothing. Back in the dead.

We know he never died because when we, so this is our anniversary episode of our 100th episode. Yeah, just making it reaches 100. No, no, no. It's a one year, but how many do we have under our belt?

This would be 53, I guess. I remember back a few episodes when we did the Tempest week. We figured out that Greg had been sealed up in a tree, but it's good. We're at this point.

I mean, I'm really grateful. First of all, thanks to Jake, the can and the gang in our previous recently engaged. Thank you, Jake. Oh, right.

Yeah, congratulations. Yeah, that's it. And thanks to all of our listeners and the people that engage with us on Twitter. We're just so close to them.

Most of them. Most of them. I'm really extremely grateful to you. And I can't believe we're here.

So this is nice. It's been so much fun. And we're doing for our first anniversary, the sort of, I don't know, the spirit of the show, right? The spirit of the show.

That's well. The clouds. We changed the names from the new thingery to the new buggery. There's a lot of buggery in this.

Yeah, speaking of that, we challenged the boys of the partially examined life to, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it.

We're going to be all the same search off. We also have our first celebrity follower. That's true. That's really true.

That's a good point. Not our first blue check mark. Alexa, Brian, is our number one on our hearts. Who is it?

Who was it Alex? It's Norm MacDonald. I don't believe you. He's famous for being bad at being famous, I guess, being funny.

He happens to be all three of ours, you know, our favorite comedian, every living comedian. Favorite take of me? Well, aristocracy often is number one. That's good.

That's pretty good. Short challenge. That one's good. But you prior, right?

It's good too. So look, where the new thing. Today we're talking about the old thingery, airsofting. The old thingery.

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about airsoftinies quickly. How many plays does he have? Greg.

Oh, God, I don't know. 13. 11 survived. 11 survived.

Do you know how many he wrote? No, way more than that. Way more. Probably more than that.

Yeah. I started writing this as a joke that's in the, I didn't realize this. I never picked on this before, but in the clouds, he mentions that he used to write right under pseudonym or for somebody else because he was too young to write plays. So I didn't know that.

No, so many did. I hear babies. They're no babies allowed in the new thingery or the old thingery. I have ways in making them.

I mean, folks at home, if you've been enjoying what we do here at the new thingery, and we always do things with a sort of a little bit of light touch. We try to have humor, but really we do. I hope it's evident to you all that we do take these texts quite seriously. And to be frank, to be honest, if we really have what is your appetite for these texts, these books, I think Alex and I would agree that there really is a deep pleasure that can be derived from reading these texts in their original language.

I know that I've studied Greek for many years now. And I'd like to set my sights on Hebrew. Really, there are fewer and fewer universities that offer students these opportunities. And there are basically, there's strictly been no opportunities for people who aren't in university to study these languages.

But we are happy to announce that there's something called the Ancient Language Institute, which is the first official sponsor of the new thingery that offers courses in Latin, ancient Greek, and biblical Hebrew. You can learn to read, listen, and speak these ancient languages. Yeah, that's great. What else can you tell me about this program in ancient languages?

Alex? Well, they're dispensed with long vocab lists in grammar, which I know I always have. I still have from middle school land the dumb songs we would sing of the Amo Amasamat. I'm not going to sing the song.

But they get rid of that. All the grammar charts. And they instead focus on reading. So you're actually reading and speaking on day one, which anybody who studied these languages know is difficult.

But you can do it. And it really gets used to using the language, which I think is a wonderful thing they do. And so to employ more of your senses, I probably just can help you reinforce the memorization and learning these things. I think that it really does help hearing it spoken, saying it out loud, or making your mind go over the words.

Smell in the words. Smell in the words, tasting them, sometimes looking books. If you're interested, they actually have a fall semester and registration is still open for the fall semester and will remain open until August 13. The classes are live online.

They accommodate your schedule with their own flexible course offerings. And last but not least, I know Alex's favorite part, if you are not happy with the product after your first class, if you decide that this class will language institute business just isn't for me, there's a happiness guarantee. They will refund the full price of the class after your first class if you decide it's not for you. This is the ancient language institute where we're proud to promote the services that they offer and we're thankful that they are sponsoring in a small way our show.

So check it out if you're interested in learning Latin, Greek, or Hebrew, ancientlanguageinstitute.com. And now back to the show. Yeah, so we're reading Aristophanes, Aristophanes, clouds. How do you want to kick that off?

Maybe we should just jump into an overview of the play. Everybody, this is the play that I think everybody is most students, people, they really are familiar with. The whole reason I asked about is the rest of his works is they're not well known. I mean, it's amazing because what do you guys love me?

The baby is killing on that. This is fantastic. I know it's good. Shrouse has a book on Aristophanes.

So list the folks at home, most of our, I mean, we know all 14 of our listeners, they all know who are as often as this, they should know that Aristotle was a comic playwright, which means he wrote plays, comedies, funny plays. They're supposed to be funny. People laughed at them. He's the only comic playwright from this period whose plays have survived actually funny enough.

He was a contemporary of Socrates. They're roughly the same age. And in fact, this plays about Socrates as some of his other famous plays, the Assembly of Women, which is about women taking over and the cavernous of Athens, which we're actually going to do an episode on that here in a couple of months. And recently the Thesmophory odds who's dying.

I don't know how to pronounce that, but there's this great translation I found online. And the translator whose world class I might add, disclaims any knowledge of vulgarity, which is the opposite of what I do when I render my Greek and English full account. You're an expert. I was just thinking of what he, how he must have giggled to himself next to his wife in bed as he was translating some of these passages.

So Alex is not against what I was saying. I think the thing that's shocking about Aristophanes, even if you read the translation of the clouds as we were using by the August Tom West. Yeah. By the way, the father of a body.

Oh, yes. Yeah. Tom West. You can't escape the body nature of some of their stuff in these jokes.

Can you give me an example, Greg? Sure. I don't know how clean you need to be. I think the one time this is for a regular fans.

The one time I've been bleeped on the new thinker was when I laid out a passage, right? I thought he was being, I thought the translator was being loose with the Greek and it turns out he was being exactly quite literal. I'll say the cool things. What versus some of his other plays are far more filthy than the clouds than the one we're doing tonight.

I think it's between the two cities. And apparently one of the jokes, a lot of commentators think that the entire play in this play, the men are all wearing erect fallacies, which is quite funny. And gosh, there's so many other just really, really dirty things. What I was trying to say though is that the clouds seems to be far less filthy than the Thezmo for the Atsusai, the peace, the list of strata, the assembly of women.

I mean, there's just those seem much more filled with dirty sex jokes. There's a fur choke here there. There's a lot of talk of buggery, which I'm not sure what that means. But compared to some of the other plays, I think this is actually, I don't know, on the cleanish side, maybe this one gets a PG-13, I said an R rating.

How do you know that buggery is filthy, but you don't know what it means? Well, it's got bugs on the name. Uh, nice save in the prayer. The other thing I wanted to add about some of his, I wondered if we could speak a little bit about what some of the characteristics of Airsofthney's place.

One thing that comes to mind is how outspoken he was in when fasting leading figures of the day, especially during the Peloponnesian War, right? Like Cleon, I mean, he goes after men who were privately vicious, and you wonder how that would come off. It's wildly popular, but I mean, when you did this stupid phrase speaking truth to power, but Airsofthney's is a good representation of what that looks like in extreme... A lot of people say these speech-truth to power, but they're just like punching down.

They have like additional support. That's not true of Airsofthney's. He makes a point of that in the clouds, right? How he was first to the post for a couple of, taking out Cleon and people like that.

Yeah, and that's, I think... Not just Cleon. Yeah, not just Cleon, but I think there's... Maybe there's a good point to just ask why is Airsofthney's matter as a person?

Yeah. Before you do that, can I just take one more care of one small technical matter? Is it David already mentioned this? We are using the translation by Thomas and Grace's story West, Fort Text on Socrates from Cornell University Press, which is a very fantastic translation, except there's one place where I think he's too pious, and it's when the student of Socrates says he had a miscarriage of thought.

I think it's much more violent than that in the Greek, but I'm sorry, you're trying to say something meaningful, not a fantastic word. No, I was actually... Exactly. I think I'm working for...

I couldn't imagine translating Al-Sebaijis with my wife. Grace's story West is Thomas West's wife. Can you imagine being like... Airsofthney's, you mean?

Yeah, could you... Sorry, do what I say? Al-Sebaijis. Oh, sorry, Airsofthney's.

I can't imagine sitting down with my wife and saying, which is better, radish in the ass or radish in the butt. You know what I'm just saying? Is this ass or asshole? I don't exactly know how to translate this word.

It's got to be a fraught thing. Maybe she did some of the Plato and he did the airsofthney's. Yeah, I don't really know. I just know that Jake's going to have a field day with this episode.

It's going to get a lot of fun. Yeah, believe all those out, so people don't know where the radishes are going. So why should we read... Airsofthney's.

Airsofthney's. Yeah, why should we read airsofthney's general? I have some thoughts on the clouds. And the other question I have is for you, ancient history of us, like Alex, how is it that we only have one comedic poet from that time period that's come down to us?

We have a number of tragedies. I don't understand. Sorry, I'm not sure. I'm not going to let it in now.

We only have four actually, right? So we only have four tragedy again. Yeah, it's better than one. I don't know.

I guess you're right. I stand corrected by a factor of four. Yeah, you're right. You're right.

You're right. You're right. You're right. You're right.

You're right. You're right. You're right. These were by and large, not true of all of them, but for most of them, it seems like they were tied to the epic tradition.

And so when you read, you know, Ettipus, we think, oh, Ettipus is played by Estophelis. Yeah, actually all the tragedies wrote the versions of the Ettipus story. And there was an epic poem that they all knew that was on the whole, what's called the thibin cycle, laying it out. So it's far more embedded, whereas in a way it's miraculous that a play about, you know, this sort of philosophic oddball would survive unless, you know, of course, you turns out to be amazing, you know, for the, you know, this world changing figure.

Yeah. So it said something passed I think really important. I don't think it's simply true of the Greeks. It's probably true if you mean generally that we tend to take tragic things more seriously than common things Yeah, and that so therefore there's more human beings are inclined to prefer tragedy to comedy I think a small bit of evidence no comedy is ever out for best picture.

I mean another piece of evidence, right? How many of these I just watched she's on at the time I like Kevin Hart. He's a funny comedian But I just watched this awful serious movie that he did on Netflix about being a single dad I mean it was just like it was he was actually quite good in it But though I mean like it was just a sob story. There was no real plot I mean so I mean that you could go on right Jim Kerry's done I mean how many of these comedians have tried to do something serious after to show that they're serious actor But in so doing they're conceding that comedy isn't serious.

I would say I mean Norm Mcdonald you're not gonna see him try to be anything like that He's he's not gonna stoop to that level. He's a comic He's come on a show. Please come on a show. Why should we take your stuff and he's seriously as a thing?

Is that it? Is that it? Oh, you're asking okay? Um, I've some talk on the clouds, but I think we should start my general, right?

Yeah, sure I mean I kind of hinted at it just a moment ago I suppose I think just because I think more human beings are predisposed to think that sad or tragic things are higher or more serious than comic But simply because most people think it doesn't mean it's the case and I think actually I suspect that comedy is ultimately like very good comedy is more serious in thought than tragedy I think it's a closer approximation of philosophy. I'll preview this now Maybe we can read about later But I actually think that Aristophanes's wisdom might be superior to the philosophic wisdom of the pre-socratic philosophers I think he may have understood human beings better than philosophers had prior to that point any he may have been this No, no may have been about it. He was essential in improving socratic wisdom in so far as Socrates before Aristophanes Had not turned to the human things Aristophanes helped Socrates better understand himself and therefore better to understand philosophy period So I can go in on a bit a little bit more I mean I think that one of the reasons comedy is higher or more serious is because it gets us to question things in a way that tragedy probably confirms Some of our predispositions it can it can get us to do so in a spirit of levity kind of like the show We try to do things seriously the touch of laughter Which kind of I think dulls the sharpness or the bluntness of the blows I mean I think comedy can be irreverence it can poke fun at the idols that we all take seriously and worship And I think you can learn a lot about a people by sort of asking yourself What are the things you're not a joke about in that society? And usually the best comedians are the ones who sort of transgress those anyway I don't know is that something like which I can add a little bit on that Yeah, please Aristotle says the primary passions involved in tragedy or pity and fear, right?

These are religious right right right so if and religion at least for the Greeks was very much a political phenomenon So it's it's very much as a politically edifying sort of payoff whereas one way to think about we're gonna get this layer So we don't want to we don't want to you know blow everything on this point but the One way to think about comedy and philosophy is having a Overlap is one of the basic arguments and philosophies are productive at absurdum You're reducing things from absurdities So what what Aristotle's does in many cases is emphasize the absurdity and conceal the argument that leads to that and you realize there's something very philosophic Beneath the surface to the last one you brought up Which I guess transitions those from Aristotle's generally just to the clouds is that Aristotle's seems to have had a profound effect on Socrates, right? I think so this is something that Leo Strauss makes quite a bit about in Socrates and Aristophanes as well as instead of lectures the problem with Socrates which is in a way a kind of Even broader but has a truncated version of Socrates and Aristophanes in it But one way to think about why we're interested in Aristophanes is to just start from the observation that Nietzsche admired Aristophanes and why did he admire Aristophanes? He thought Aristophanes may have been superior to Plato in a way, right? But he offered something that Plato does not he could criticize Plato yet.

He lived in this ancient world Now what's going on in the background here is actually I think quite deep in the history of political philosophy Even in each time and certainly in our time we live in this modern world of scientific technological process based on natural science and while it can make our lives a lot easier It doesn't feel really deeply satisfying as human beings And in a way that's just due to what the modern project is Look we're not concerned about what it is you want to do so much as it is just making it easier for you to do it, right? Whatever it is you desire however your happiness is will help you satisfy that within certain limits Whereas the Greeks had a very robust notion of happiness Now it came with in Plato especially the all this metaphysical mumbo jumbo that the ancient the moderners just thought this is crazy This idea of a world of forms or whatever sort of caricature you want to give it And so we're kind of stuck in this weird situation where the modern world doesn't satisfy as the ancient world seems Too mystical or too to sort of hocus pocus see and so where do we turn? Well, Aristophanes clouds is actually a great place to turn You see him critiquing natural science pushing toward a serious consideration of the good life in a very political and sort of human sense Acknowledging that stockers has wisdom but sort of urging him to take into consideration the world in which he lives And so Aristophanes clouds and this is kind of intuitive I know Aristophanes clouds in a way has a glimpse at a kind of horrifying moral teaching that Recognizes the wisdom that Socrates might have as a natural scientist while also pointing to the fact that this doesn't actually take into account The full range of human concerns and specifically the concern for living a good life with your fellow citizens and in the human world There's great point put it out really simply I think right to the point it doesn't take into account the human things That's a gone. Sorry.

No, no, go ahead But that's uh, I agree with that interpretation. We've talked about this play throughout the years That's a sophisticated interpretation. There's like a surface love. I mean just imagine Watching this play for the first time One takeaway would be that you know Socrates is a corrupting influence and um like at best we should just like laugh at him Uh, and at worst he should be strung up.

Um, and so like where do you do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. I think since you're you're actually right dude. So one small point just to Uh amplify what alice just said this play was meant to be morally edifying So this is probably somewhat counterintuitive a story that uh sort of is full of poop Uh buggery Father beating incest all those jokes Home with buggery It's when you have a bug on your um your face and you smack it really hard.

You just smack that bug really hard That's buggery But one thing I thought would be a useful transition at this point since david is You can't say that on tv folks at home. Uh my friend. He's been drinking tonight So I thought it would be useful since david mentioned like, you know, somebody watching this for a first time There's a pretty simple lesson and it's that velocities bad. These pacey face ways will corrupt your children Uh, they're atheists.

They're disgusting. They probably have skin disease Uh, they they make a living by uh thieving and stealing and buggery ink And so I thought you know, maybe somebody should just quickly describe the plot How do you make a living by smacking bugs on your head? There bugs were a lot more prevalent in each world Don't you remember sopche says he's gonna mad fly He's just acting them off you're smacking Someone else's head realize that greg like the just be just quickly unraveling beneath his own pretenses Um Listen out to my day. We were second our elders So david, you want to just give us a summary of the play now try my stupid kid is just not what's your pen?

That seems appropriate somehow. Yeah Yeah, so he's way too young to beat me Uh And years of psychological abuse will ensure that he never is able to overcome me but that's not that's my ongoing project So There are two main characters in this play three if you count Socrates, but strep sites. Is that am I pronouncing it correctly? That's right then.

Yeah, it is his son. Is it? I heard an alternative uh pronunciation before we got on but yeah, that's I'm a district sites and fed up easy You make it fun of me. No If I did it is it doesn't matter.

Look, I don't give it. I don't give it damn. That's what I'm saying You have a father and son. Okay, I'll speak in the absence of the very ruthless on this podcast and um, the father is the ill fortune like many of us to be married to too well like an aristocratic woman Uh, whose needs he would not an aristocrat himself cannot keep satiated and they produce a son this fiddie-buddies Fifth fight at pities guy who hangs around horse track betting and he's losing all the money in the family and the father is staring on his hair What do I do with my son?

What do I do with all these bills these mounting bills in uh in the house and uh So what he does is he sends the son essentially gets an idea to send the son to boarding school In a way and that boarding school is the the thinkery Where Socrates is the headmaster and he's hoping that at the thinkery he will learn essentially sophistry So making um the the weaker argument appear the stronger and through his new found um ability of oral deception which we're gonna a little bit about uh, he will be able to slide uh confront I guess like the his creditors and fool them into Not having to pay his bills Now as right, so that's that's a rough outline. No, that's so then there's uh, so the father He can't convince his son to go and so then he goes and says sorry. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah No, so they're a number of threads so in rough outline. That's kind of what it is The father can't convince the son so the father himself in roles, right? He else he has a big fails.

Yeah, he fails out. He fails out. Yeah, and he fails and this is where Socrates This is where Socrates. This is where you get to see kind of Socrates as you know, this weird mad hatter type um Antis students also uh come into play uh he does eventually convince the son right the son does eventually go into the school right now And uh, the son learns something very very interesting.

Yeah, he learns not to respect his father Or mother or mother, but he only beats the father right right? Um, the creditors I think come come back and there's still in legal trouble and that's how it ends Well, it ends with the thinkery come on Oh, yeah Yeah, but I mean like the the problem that initiated all of the action of this play is still Is still the problem that initiated at their debts and everything is still there Meanwhile, what's the actual consequence? Socrates thinkery has been burned down. So what's the lesson of it?

It's it seems to be stay away from Socrates and Socrates stay away from them Maybe harsher listen, but also don't marry rich women. Yeah, it's one of the lessons. Yeah, but the dad is an idiot Yeah, I mean he's like he doesn't have sense and he's not like he's not very easily lonely. Right.

Yeah The son's name one thing I always want to teach this is that the son's name is a cop so that the dad you mentioned Stripes I he's a sort of a Rusted farmer and the wife is a rich city gal and she's insisting on fancy city-fied names for the boy like very Inregal or aristocratic sounding. He's insisting on rural good country names And they decide on the amalgamation that's awful, right? So it's like the kid's name is like Sony Bubba Junebug Worthington the fourth something like that It makes it the high and the low doesn't it mean like impoverished horse? Yeah, yeah, or impoverished by horses.

Maybe yeah, yeah, that's right Horse being a horse being assigned to your wealthy good horse So maybe that's a good place to transition to our sort of next topic Which is what's in the background of this is obviously the Peloponnesian war? There's a number of illusions to it, but also the general moral decay of Athens, right? And what do we do about it? And the marriage of the poor sort of simple rustic Stripes IDs to his to his wife.

I thought this was hilarious So his wife her dad's name is Megacles which means like great great renown and her dad's dad's name is Megacles Which means great renown and then a little lady found out the boy's uncle that means her brother is named Megacles everybody in her family is named Megacles all these high-falutin names and So you have this sort of marriage of luxury and pompousness and on the one hand and simple sort of rustic virtue And it's a symbol I guess of the situation which Athens finds herself right torn between its simpler beginnings and the Luxury and moral decay that's born of its empire, right? Father I mean, I think you're right, but the father who's supposed to represent rustic simplicity He's not a decent fellow, right? He's willing to send his kid over to Socrates. We'll learn how to be a shyster That's a translation from west by the way And so so like you know, he's he wants to defraud his creditors And so he's not him if he is for rustic virtue.

He too was already corrupted in some way Or yeah, I think that's that's in a way one of the underlying themes of the place How did we get here, right? Right? What is it in our in our old way of life that allowed us to get to this point? I think the theme of horses is really important here, right?

Horses are sort of militarily necessary, you know, you need a cavalry, right? And then in order to display your proficiency on the battlefield you might have horse races and things like that, right? If you read the horse race in the iliad you can see it's it's meant to show that you're very good with the chariot Then you go down the line becomes that competition becomes an end in itself and it seems like there's a kind of Trajectory of decay where wealth supplants necessity and you get this past time for its own sake And instead of it being the backbone of a community to defend it against invaders It becomes a parasite, right? Just sucking the blood from it And then there's a lot of parallels in the language between What's a set of phidipides interest in horses?

This is in the first scene and Strepside is interest in Socrates, right? He starts out. He's using a lot of the same language playfully but I think the serious suggestion behind the playful language is just as horse racing as an end in itself is a kind of A symbol of Athenian moral decay even worse than that is Socrates, right? The horses get you broke who's gonna get you out of out of it the sophisticated Socrates And I also found it interesting that the father selects Socrates's thinkery first There were other I mean like I guess what's interesting is that what we phrased this form of a question Why do you suppose that heresstophanes has as his like mark of rich seeming mark of ridicule Socrates instead of Like calicles or some softest like why doesn't he pick a different mark?

Why doesn't he go after actual softest instead of instead of Socrates? Yeah, well a lot of scholars think that Socrates is a generic stand-in For any of this class of softest that's not my view and I don't think it's Alex's view either But they really think that? Yeah, they think he's just a type but I think that that's wrong And I think there's at least Plato seems to confirm in the fatal for example and also the apology That this is specifically Socrates being targeted and the only other softest or that I can recall was that mentioned by name in this play Is prodigous, right? Yeah, so and so look I think there's that's a great question Sorry going well.

I think most of the guys are foreigners. I think that's part of it So he's he's an Athenian Socrates is where most of the Terrorists yeah, but I think you're right. I mean this is maybe we'll come out this will come out as we keep talking But I don't think so look heresstophanes has Socrates's house or school get burned down in the end So it's obvious it seems obvious that heresstophanes doesn't think highly of Socrates Though in the other hand, I think he chooses Socrates because he actually does admire him And he thinks that Socrates might be the best of that lot with the possible exception of prodigous And why might he be the best? Yeah, you're I don't know if this is why he's the best But I think you're right he might be receptive to being taught in the way that you think that if this is a warning to Socrates That would show that you only warn someone you actually care about and so I think I suspect that heresstophanes respects Socrates But thinks that he's missed something fundamental about things Why is it not the pre-socratic?

I suppose they're no longer running around to the same extent Yeah, not just Socrates though because those students in the thinkery in the play would have played among others, right? Well, it'll probably be too young but Chironfon is mentioned although we never actually see him in the play if memory serves So out your champion a bit there. No, I think I think he's like present but he doesn't speak he never speaks. Yeah Yeah, I've always interpreted it as a warning a friendly warning to Socrates.

Yeah There's a more friendly if you're wearing in front of the demos. Yeah, right, right? Right. There's the apocryphal story that Socrates sought performed right and stood up and weighed or something else You know one thing we haven't talked about all that we should talk about is anyone talk about world K, but the clouds Like what are they?

Yeah, yeah, that's so hard. It's such a hard question and it's right on the surface there, right? It's the title. Yeah I mean they're goddesses ostensibly right sort of ways to start good places start there's not pretty as goddesses to speak loosely to start I mean, one way I think about them is amigos actually a sort of odd way connects back to David's question is that They change forms, right?

And Socrates when we first see him he's investigating whether the sound and that may comes that makes comes from his mouth or from its rear end, right? It's on. He's in the sun. He had just been doing that.

Yeah, just right. So one of the first things we hear about him is that he investigates That's David's child or Greg's mouth. I'll decide But he's investigating this and one of the interesting questions there is you have a phenomenon right that has two possible causes, right? And to discern the cause you need to investigate the entrails of a net, right?

And Strapcitis is impressed with this one. Well, if this guy can investigate the entrails of that, he can really get all these, you know, creditors off my back. And the suggestion there is that something like a deep understanding of natural science allows you to also have a very high skill in rhetoric. Strapcitis, I think, intuitively understands this because you can You can manipulate what's happening behind the scenes as it were, right?

Now that connection is not gonna be obvious to people who haven't been corrupted like you or me or David? Yes, I want to spell that out of it. So you're saying that there's a connection between the investigation into natural phenomena like that's yes and being able to win a legal argument. Yes, preposterous But I think the suggestions and this is I think embodied in the clouds is just something that there's some unforeseen cause or some subtext or some Unferencing machinations that are producing the things that are seen.

I think this happens in arguments where you sneak in premises, right? Or you you know, you fudge the the basics of the argument. Similarly how one can give very sciency sounding explanations of things, right? Once people acknowledge that the surface isn't really sufficient on itself, you can give explanations that support it in the clouds, which are at once amorphous and then take, you know, specific forms They kind of come and go in the forms that they take or I think in a way a kind of Apotheosis or divinization of this principle, whatever it might be.

That's the best that I can do to make sense of them, somehow tying that together in a way. I thought you were gonna make the more I thought I was trying to tee you up for making connection between what seems to be the allegation that People who investigate natural phenomena find that there are natural explanations for events, which means they do not believe that there are supernatural explanations for events, which means so Socrates is accused of not believing in the gods of the city In the in the apologies, that's what he says the charges are and here in this play Aristophanes has Socrates say there is no Zeus or Zeus is not more simply So there's a connection between the study of natural science and being immoral Maybe connection should be becoming more clear because if you do not believe that there will be a supernatural punishment or Reward for your actions you have one might believe that you would be less inclined therefore to do the right noble just thing Right, so if there's no if justice has no supernatural support Then there's no reason why I can't lie and defraud my creditors here So I will learn the art of rhetoric learn soft street make the weak very the stronger There seems to be a strong connection between believing and provincial gods and and not studying the world Not not demystifying it in some way. Yeah, and we should be clear here that one of the ways in which Debt worked and happens is you would just swear and oath by the gods apparently So if you're willing to do that and not be worried about their punishment, you're gonna get off scot-free Well, I mean you laugh at we still I mean I assume that all the times you've been the court I'll surely you must have noticed that all those people testifying against you had to swear Yeah, I can get these I can get these people to pay their debts to me. It's really really outrageous You find as years you one percenters are really you should be charged quite frankly.

That's my it's the largest percent You know of all the percent is this is what Alex always tells him But we still do this that's jokes aside like you go to court like you know Do you swear it's not the truth so help you gone, right? Um, what there's oh, yeah, I do Wasn't there a supreme court case even in fact about this my mistake? I don't remember Early on But yeah, that's a good point which is to say that that uh by investigating nature you're you're implicitly Depergating confectioner or law, right? And I tell you you guys are really calling out a lot of succulents from this play that I don't know that people I don't know that people get it on the first the first watch Even the first read one of the interesting uh sort of uh moments you're right dude Thanks.

Just let it go on. Oh, your questions does use exist and the theme that's or size we've been is no He's been supplanted by vortex. He's been overthrown, right? So it's been a change in the order.

Zeus has been replaced by vortex but one of the interesting things there is that uh, there's no expectation of sort of uh legal punishment, right or punishment on the basis of legal transgression Vortex might be the the new god whatever it is, but it's it's not providential as greg was Yeah, and so so so sorry just so I'm like I mentioned as far as he just thinks that one god Replays another just like that has happened in greek theological history before but to your point David that people wouldn't get this on the first pass I mean I think you're right on it now airstoffinies and one of the um speeches by the chorus tells us that this is his best comedy And he chastises the judges the the addition that we have we know is not the first edition of the play because in One of the when the chorus speaks at one point Um, it chastises the judges for not rewarding this top prize And so I think part of that is in agreement with your idea that you wouldn't catch a lot of this at the first pass Airstoffinies is saying this is the one I put the most work into this is my best comedy This is my most wise comedy And if it has all of that uh, maybe one of the problems that it will face is it won't be as well received immediately by people who are just going to watch it In one city, but I mean the same thing the same as true Shakespeare, right? I mean, I know your affection for debard Go it out so you can measure for measure right how lusio is called a fantastic only in the dramatist persona Right only the list of characters does it say this and this is you know a key thing? Um, maybe our stuff needs also intended to be read by his his best audience even though it's probably performed Okay, I mean this goes back to a point made earlier. I think this is a really rich point when you really think about it is that This is not his funniest play.

It's got no it's not it's got a very serious subject matter In a way, maybe airstoffinies wouldn't allow himself to mock certain things I think stress makes this point that with stock he's goes in he gives an indoor instruction right to strip sides You don't know what's in there. We can make a couple of inferences But really it's a big question mark meanwhile as that instructions going on airstoffinies comes forward and says where's my prize? Why did I get my prize? So at the same time as he points to the fact that I won't mock certain things I'm going to let certain things I think they're really serious and beyond comedy in a way at the same time he's doing that He's indicating his own dependence on the crowd and how there's this incongruity between the two things What he takes serious and what the people are willing to laugh at and which makes the play not a failure But maybe popularly not as successful as it ought to do a bit I think that's a really great point when you really start pushing him And it's not as funny at all as the play I mentioned earlier about the sex strike Which I just realized I called the piece which is another play about Eastern public more It was a list of strata stupid student student, but in any event Yeah, those are much they're much funnier plays.

I do wonder if but I think we all can I agree I would say in my own name that I think airstoffinies I think this is a very good play. I think it's very serious I think he's probably very wise But I do wonder if you run into the limits of what one can achieve in comedy here Because if if this is his wisest play and it's not recognized as such You know you do wonder if in that regard perhaps what Socrates does or Plato does is superior That flossy can't actually do the highest things while retaining audience or maybe it's just the case that Airsoft and he's thought his whole body of work Uh is working together and so therefore the list of strata is very funny And therefore we'll attract an audience that will help to keep alive his more serious plays like the clouds You know you just don't know what these guys are thinking about I mean they're probably just thinking about how can I feed my family too That that raises a really interesting question that is impossible to answer which is Why do we have the clouds? Is it because air and the other place is because airstoffinies is funny or Socrates is wise I thought it's just because of who it stars That's well, that's that's a question, right? No, not simply that he's wise but that he's that he's there at all Yeah, I don't know the textual tradition be interesting to see how these were preserved right Doc, the frogs has the tragedy ends right that now would be of interest simply because of who the characters are It's true and they clearly on is yeah, clearly on to the night.

So you can't right or they're can't yeah Um, let's get down to some filth. Let's get down. Let's get down. Let's get what I mean I'm just going to be mean Cheeks Uh, the listen folks at home are just gonna hear be that's all they're gonna hear right there Let's get down to the just beach.

We're returning dirty. Okay. That's right. You want to tell my bell and zip my fly Yeah Jakes gabap Alex Alex has been rehearsing this for a month.

So let's uh, we want to we want to talk about the just beach and unjust Speech so one of the center pieces. Oh, so that's not the first. Yes, that's it. I'm dead The center pieces of this whole play is this exchange between the just beach and the unjust speech after societies has failed out You bring ease really rough with the science that you need to go there Is son is kind of taking it back.

He goes, I'll find that I'll go I'll go and he goes there and uh He's going to get instruction in by witnessing of its own accord that just speech Arguing or discussing with the unjust speech the just speech will go first Give us a count of what it thinks virtue is and what the good life is and then the unjust speech says that on the basis of these premises I'm going to unravel everything One of the most noteworthy things about this that always makes me laugh is how the just each while while talking about all the awful things that are avoided by justice seems to be slightly taken by them, right? In a way won't a sort of simple way to put it that ties it back into gregs earlier point about law, right? Is that law prohibits things and that prohibition kind of acknowledges? Now these are kind of nice, right?

And the just beaches sort of internal conflicts brings that up No, that's great. So you don't need laws against, you know, consuming gasoline or something like that Their the laws are against things. That's kind of a correction. No, if you don't need those laws, that's exactly my point.

They're not fun. Um, let's hear All right, so we want to we want to be the expert expert. What's your favorite expert Greg? What should we what should we read?

You know, I honestly I think I'd like to read just speech is around line 1000 And by the way, for what it's worth Socrates is not a stage at this point And what's happening is there's this argument as you said between just an unjust speech in front of in front of the sun for deputies, right? I think I think a better passage is like 970 or so Okay, this is I mean this stuff is filthy. I can't read this. Sure.

You can't bar put your hands over your sense of yours. That's disgusting So nice to go. Yeah, I'll do 969 appropriate not line number and maybe Greg. You can do the later one.

I don't know. I don't know you find particular tickling All right, just we says if anyone was ribbald You like those tales of ribbald I do the cells of ribbalds or added any modulation of the sort they use nowadays It would be thrashed and beaten with many blows as one who would have faced them uses It was needful for the boys to keep their thighs covered While sitting at the gymnastic trainers So it's a show nothing cruel to those outside Next again when they stood up they had to smooth the sand back again to be mindful not to leave behind an image of puberty for their lovers at that time. No boy would annoy himself below the navel So the dew down bloomed on their private parts as on fruit nor would he make a soft voice to go? It was lever self-painter himself with his eyes.

No, was it allowed him at dinner that help himself to the Thradishes nor to snatch dealer parsley from his elders nor to eat rad relishes nor to giggle but across his legs That's a just feature. If you ask me, right Kid lord, I think David fell asleep. No, what is that? Asrm the we we need um though the audio of the book on tape by Alex No, I have a funny story.

No, no, no, I'll take a story instead about it. This is true story. No, no I I did a filthy reading you're doing it too. Come on.

Yeah, come on Greg I can't do it for all your dinners. Greg's always He's not down in the mire with the time. No, but he really is behind. I try to elevate you to the flop with the hogs if you got No, no, no, no, no, no.

So what do you want to start 100 unjust? Whatever it is you saw at the just the just beach You were pointing over here, right? I think you had it right. Oh, yeah, yeah thousand.

Okay I don't Yes, this is it lying with thousand. Yes, but you'll pass your time in the gymnasium sleek and flourishing not mouthing prickly perversities in the marketplace as they do nowadays And you won't be dragged into court over a greedy contradicting shystering petty affair Rather you'll go down to the academy and run under the sacred olive trees with a moderate youth of your own age And you'll be crowned with a wreath of white reed Smelling of you and of leisure and of white popular shettings its leaves and in the season of spring you'll delight when this is awful Yours was way better. I give this was not a good passage to read It may be filthy for rustic like you. Yeah, I was actually let me tell this story about this You want to start it is one one thousand and nine if you do these things Go ahead.

No, you're much better. I don't know All right, if you do these things I tell you and pay mind to them. You will always have a sleek chest Bright complexion. Ooh large shoulders Slender tongue large buttocks Small penis But if you pursue what they do nowadays first you'll have a pale complexion small shoulders narrow chest big tongue Small buttocks big hunch long decree.

What is a decree there? I do declare You don't hear my story my story is funny. Tell us your story. Tell us your story The point of your joke the point of your joke there is that just beach is protesting a little too much.

Yes, right? Exactly. So I have a friend who will remain nameless who does a lot of work for a very respectable conservative think tank about family values And his research is on homosexuality And he visited me a couple of summers ago and we were having coffee on my porch and he starts talking about homosexuality And he's just my friend not me by the way. My friend is just he finds it abhorrent.

It's morally decadent I'm sort of whatever teaches on but he's these repulsed by it. It's just seconding I'm like how can we find he's just can't go on enough about how sick it is And he starts describing in lurid detail the various sexual activities that homosexual is engaging Like very very graphically and at some point I want to like see a little puff of saliva I think that's exactly the spirit of the just feature before David bars. I don't think I've ever seen David's help all about you think I've ever said It's just a weird story. It's a true story.

Yeah, he's like in the story. Yeah, just one like a confession I know it was David bar Is that too much for the show? I mean that was a true story. No, no, no, I was good But I mean the point was like I could tell he was kind of Despite all of his more protests was still kind of like clearly had some puree and interest in that so this seemed to me to Right.

Thankfully, he doesn't listen to the show Man, what do we uh, what do we do next? How do we move on for that? There's no there's no segue from from I have a way to sit before we do the mail back because we're getting here up on an hour Do you guys have an interpretation of um the thinkery burning down what what that's supposed to represent? Yeah, because it seems like like there's a really dark way.

I think uh to represent it just like I don't know. I can't believe we're not gonna talk about what the what aggravates what leads to his father Of the student burning the house down He's thinking about beating his mother Next that's what he says. What do you get from it? Oh, you serious?

Okay. Uh, oh gosh You know, you said me off aren't you you bastard. All right, so I knew it So the the dad and the son after the son has been educated by Socrates Uh and the dad is so proud uh now he has the son who can help him defraud all the creators Um One for crater comms and and strip side he's the father takes upon himself to sort of run him off Doesn't even let his son show how impressive he is and then the second crater comms and same thing even though that crater actually had come for The son by the day he runs the most office so proud and they're celebrating a feast to son And so they're having a drinking party. He's like, I'm so proud of my boy He just graduated from Socrates school and now he knows how to trick everybody out of money And they're like let's put on some tunes and he's like I like uh, I like the music from this guy uripities because he likes incest And the dad's like what it gods name is wrong with you.

How do you like incest music? That's that's bad music And then then little later is The mom is in the office and then there's a yeah, yeah, just good and then there's a dispute about father beating and um So the son finally persuades, you know, he says dad, you know, he used to beat me when I was kid, right? And he's like yeah, he's from my own good, right? He's like, yeah, of course.

Okay, so As you become older you become stupider and so therefore I'm gonna beat you for your own good And so that the father acquiesces he's like, you know what? That's a great argument father beating is okay And then he's then then they turn to subject to mother beating and this is when the father has had an office Okay, fine. I could get behind father beating but not mother beating but I suspect that it's not the mother beating that has Ruffled the father so much as the prospect of the topic of the drunken songs incest and the prospect of an incestuous relationship with mothers this one decided I see that's I What DC may I would propose such a thing? Sophically is um He's but but in this case is that Socrates is school.

I don't understand that that's I don't get that interpretation It's a little it would be it would be that the prohibition against incest is not Natural that it's man-made that there's no natural. There's no rational argument against it Georgia logic folks now So this is what leads the father to burn the house down of Socrates He's like this guy's teaching this kind of garbage He deserves to have it and I believe most people in the audience most people on the new thinkory We would all agree you don't go around teaching that stuff and you should have your school burn down if you do And so he gets this house burned down the school burn down But you want to know about the interpretation of why do you have a deeper interpretation of the school what it stands for and And it's burning what that means for philosophy or if there's nothing to it I mean I mean there's some simple stuff right like so in the play Socrates has said to worship these divine beings the clouds Now there's some ambiguity there. I think hopefully Socrates doesn't prove to be a faithful Adherent to them, but if if his house is burned down and if the clouds were truly divinities and Socrates truly honored them One would think they would come to his aid. So I think that's at least part of the interpretation that his gods can't help him Probably that's part of it.

Yeah, yeah, exactly and even it's just makes this point about how before and after his sips at his instruction Uh the indoor instruction the one you don't see Uh, there's no uh before he refers to the clouds as goddesses and swears by them afterwards So they might not even be gods in his mind right more like a kind of teaching right or preliminary teaching And he of course lies beyond it and foolishly so you mentioned that the clouds sort of change shapes But in other respect they're just uh air right puffs of air. So there's nothing to them His gods are empty bags of air. It's like that And water they have water right which they refuse to share with Socrates Yeah, I also think I mean trust me right this is as violent an ending as you could have in a comedy Like this is this is short of killing Socrates, which is forbidden in a comedy right? Comedy's on a happy note allegedly tragedy's on a bad note So there were these informal limits.

I think so maybe we should talk now about the sort of The juicy center of this play which is the relationship between comedy and philosophy You uh, you have a lot I mean we touched on this a bit about tragedy as being closer to religion and therefore the city Comedy is being more inclined to the absurdity of ordinary beliefs and ordinary sort of habits um and therefore closer to philosophy And we touched on the pro the role of law in this sort of interplay, but maybe why I had something great I mean, I feel like I said a lot of what I want to say. I suspect that I mean look, um I mean there these worn out trite sayings, but Socrates laughed we have evidence of this and play the wandensin zenithin Uh, and there seems to be something more serious about laughter Um, I do wonder sometimes I have a special softens for laughter and comedy So I wonder to what extent it can also hide the world from you Um, but I think that some maybe we should explore that But I think that laughter sometimes will reveal to us some of the human Some of the ridiculous things human try to do to conceal the world from us so for example I mean just think of silly examples with someone farts in an inappropriate place or something like this Like we anything we try to dress something up with honor and prestige or pageantry Um, which is I think we're in a funeral for example It's really out of place to fart in a funeral or something or laugh at a funeral Why because we think that's a sign of respect Yeah, I don't think that's true But um, yeah, you're right under redness and so I I don't know like a lot of what human life Even tragedy I think might try to be encouraging humans to do is to forget about some of the things that are absurd and life are ridiculous And that laughter might reveal some of those things to us. I mean, we don't have it because go on great Sorry, do I want to what heres often these book you guys read the name of the rose? That's always fun on what happened to heres often these books.

I mean, sorry. Oh, forgive me heres stoddles book on comedy Oh, yes. Yes, we do have we do have a camera in the book right now But we do have a book that stands in place of aerosol spoke on comedy allegedly the camera's a book on tragedy It's one book I don't know what you mean, but uh, you mean the poetics. Yeah, the poetics is no No, we actually have another book.

I'll try and find the title. It's not missing anything Alex. Okay, just a joke I mean, it's a joke. It's a serious joke that if you do understand that the one book of the poetics, I think Oh, god, I'm a tragedy comedy.

Yeah What else did you want to say about the relationship between comedy and philosophy? I mean like jesus wept Socrates laughed I mean the old the old's fun was funny saying right, um, I think that that for um But what's funny to just sort of push for a moment though I think we are in the habit of maybe because german philosophy and like we think philosophers are very serious people Can you imagine con laughing? I mean, I can't I can't by cons jesus Nietzsche He uh, I can imagine nicha laughing sort of at someone I think one way to put this I think that's a good point that maybe maybe certain traditions Lessing certain would laugh. Yeah laugh at nicha too.

I mean, he's got a brilliant play called the fry guys the free spirit That's uh is almost like a refutation or attack on nicha before nicha. It's pretty wonderful Maki left You wrote comedy But I guess I want to put focus on this question is there anything beyond laughter? I mean people can laugh at anything there can be stupid baseless laughter, right? Sure But is there anything that probably understood cannot be laughed at?

Oh, I see so I think like what like what maybe erosophanes can seize this I think by saying that the deepest Insights of Socrates. I can't put on stage. I can't oh, they're off Yeah, there's somehow off stage. It might be a signal that falaf so comedy might be superior to tragedy, right?

And then philosophy might in a way be superior to comedy in that it's a mood of appreciation or the sort of Subjective the way in which the individual relates to whatever it is they're thinking about or discussing isn't predetermined to be laughter or tears, right? But who knows wonder? Yeah, right? Who knows what that disposition is love?

I guess that's funny because I often find myself laughing about something and then once I regain myself sort of asking No, why is that why was that funny? I mean this perhaps this is why I can't even never want to come on the show But like why are certain things why do they make us laugh some of them are conventional? But then there are other things that seem to be funny to humans qua humans I don't know why like for it seemed to transcend cultures. That is something funny I thought I'd forget the name of that author who wrote that little article on laughter and interpretation Do you remember his name?

But he talks about laughter and this is actually one of the most insightful things I read about comedy He thinks that laughter is a sudden surprise That Inclines you to think that order has been suspended And then the sudden the sudden Coming back into the belief that that order is there so like You're scared for a second and so you think holy crap something bad's happened Know everything's okay And that's that's the sort of involuntary and immediate response to sort of especially serious bodily like belly laughter And so the reason for it's funny is because you thought something really bad was about to happen But it didn't this is too much Greg. Come on. Sorry. Sorry.

I don't track this argument. You didn't poop your pants Like it did You want to go to mailbag? I yeah, sure we could call them the rashes for this episode. You got anything?

David No There's the link there Goddamn There are a lot of good questions that we've had too good Yeah, let me tell you we need a stupider audience I know I sometimes make fun of the the mailbag questions when they're leading where they're they're Insane But there's some good ones here. I don't know Justin Scott Chuck said why is motherf***ing so much worse disrupt societies than father beating and what does it Do with edifice that was funny. He DM'd me that and then I was like, did you want me to keep this anonymous? I didn't even realize he followed that up.

This is a translate translator of Heinrich Myers book on Sarah Thuscher by the way Really? Why is motherf***ing so much worse disrupt societies than father beating and what does it have to do with edifice? Do we touch on that? We didn't.

Yeah, we did. No, we didn't say what edifice is kind of the common stand actually Fidivities is kind of the common stand in for edifice So he doesn't do it which allows it to still be funny whereas edifice did do it and so it's not funny got it Oh, he done did it. Why is it so much worse? I think it's because Um Strip size can suffer being beaten because it's him.

I suspect it's a kind of belief that women are Uh, not as strong and in need of protection. That'd be my one one suspicion. Yeah, uh, Father beating is only a partial replacement of the father Motherf*** is a full replacement of the father. Yeah, I think that's right.

I hope that Jake will blast all of those He's gonna have a look. I hope it just says he ha or something like that instead of the anyway Good question from christopher brother friend of the show who's written interesting work on uh, aerosols, metaphysics well worth reading He asked why does hermese specifically appear at the end? Well because it became at the beginning. They wouldn't be much of a play But no well played well played That was good.

I'm speaking for Thomas West note because I thought this was such a good question. It's a great question. Hermese is why i'm a God of commerce Uh, and One after I read that note, I noticed the creditors swear by him one of the creditors Second creditor swear is by hermese So it stands that this god the god of commerce will come in at the end as the and it would be a kind of impoverished theology of Athens Maybe but that's just a hunch that I had it depending uponing uponing on that for a few minutes Any other questions about you guys? Yeah bunch.

Um, I think we touched on this But I'd like to hear you answer follow up Alex and I have some thoughts if you don't this is from play those footnotes Which is at play those footnotes? Why does there's that many think the comedy is the best venue to critique Socrates? I know where stuff and he's talented toward the comedic But is there a deeper reason that comedy might criticize the credit philosophy? I feel like this is your real Oscar Okay.

I mean, that's probably why I read it. Um I mentioned earlier now as a graduate. Why is great so handsome? I think I'll take this I I suspect that um air stuff needs criticize the credit philosophy because pre-socratic But I think it's play had an effect on Socrates and made him be more careful and more appreciative of human things I mentioned earlier that I think that air stuff in his wisdom is superior to pre-socratic wisdom and you nodded I thought it's I you know, yes, Alex Then which is surprising me was one of the if we all agree that socratic philosophy is the highest It's only socratic philosophy that's been elevated in response to and critique by our stuff in his I don't know.

I agree with you. I mean, there's there's the pre-socratic as they came to be as a school This is a sort of hobby horse of mine. There's Permanities and then there's a very good is Heracles and the Heracles and the Heracles and in a number of places Plato suggests that there's a distinction between the school and the individual around whom the school arose and I certainly think it's superior to the pre-socratic schools Heracles to me is uh, I mean He's prone to mockery and sort of wicked barbs of people and I see him in air softness having some kindred spirits, but Right any others here worth it. Who's the hero of the play?

That's a good. That's from uh, have a flood Yeah, that is good at have a flood and that's a can you read that grant? You know what that's kind of small. Yeah, hold on.

It's an Arabic um Atna's uh washer. I washer I know I assume that means how to flood Um, who's the hero is it's not Persian you can't you can't read that? Who's the hero the pope does it? You are something sorry and I'm not sure that this play is all that funny either I know we've been calling it a comedy, but I was been thinking about it as you guys have been talking Uh, it has comedic elements, but it doesn't tie together with a bow like some of Shakespeare's comedies Which is a problematic and the endings are like uh, it like contrived in a dark way and um, so their gradients to this I'm not sure that this is heck play end on a happy note.

I mean, is that hilarious to you at the very end? I'm happy to see Socrates done with I mean the guy Right. I had it common. Yeah No, I mean we've talked about this a few times and I think it's uh It might be the the one um, it might be the one play that that takes on something too serious for comedy Right.

I mean, this is a recurrent theme and there's a deep respect that air stopping these seems to have in this play for Socrates And it's echo we haven't talked about this at all, but air stopping appears and played a symposium and he there It seems to be friendly with him and they stay up all night talking and air stopping is a centing to a socratic argument at the end We know the conclusion. We don't know the argument, but the conclusion is that the same poet who can write comedy can also write trash and vice versa Whatever it might be um, and that suggests I think a deep kinship or or affinity or friendship beneath all the surface Tension, right? He's a funny way of showing that friendship though That's the hard part is that he goes public and sakari says this in the apology like this got me into a lot of trouble Um, and there's a kind of turning point. I think you can even see this this is too big of a question to touch on your But i'll just throw this out as possibly you see this in play don't you date the eye die?

Locks dramatically, um, you can see that there's a kind of turning point in Socrates life where he's no longer just eyeball off to the side But he's front and center in Athens intellectual life. I think precisely because air softenies put him on display. It means that she's Litt's interested in air soften speech can tune into episode 32 of the new thinkory Well done great. Thank you Those interested in more air softness we did interview with bob barley.

We'll probably do we're going to do the assembly woman We're going to do the assembly woman. Yeah, we're going to ask for that. Oh, we're our guests. Oh surprise.

Okay, it's a surprise guys. We're not going to say We have a guest A guest. Yeah, all right. An intellectual.

Thank you for joining us. This has been one year. It's been a good year Not always easy. I can't think of a bad thing that's happened this last year.

Yeah, it's been a good year I mean great here our creature. We are a creature of the covid-19 pandemic. You're welcome. Don't balance good.

I would say great Great. I mean better than not further off