BONUS Why Your Agile Transformation Keeps Snapping Back — And What Systems Thinking Says About It With Natalia Curusi

BONUS: Why Your Agile Transformation Keeps Snapping Back — And What Systems Thinking Says About It Natalia Curusi co-authored a book that doesn't tell you what agile should look like — it tells you what actually happens when you try to transform an organization. Friday-night deployments, zombie teams going through the motions, transformations that met a wall of silence. In this episode, we unpack the real lessons from the front lines: how personal values drive the shift to agile, why some teams have all the ceremonies but none of the substance, and what systems thinking reveals about why transformations fail — or snap back. When Your Values Don't Match Your Ways of Working "I felt like there is a mismatch in my values, my moral values and principles, and customer-centric orientation. So when I found out about Agile around 2010, I understood — okay, this is the answer. Now I have the answer how I can map my moral values and principles with software delivery."   Natalia's journey to agile didn't start with a methodology — it started with a gut feeling that something was wrong. Working in large corporations in the early 2000s with fixed-scope contracts, late deployments, and scripts running directly in production, she sensed a disconnect between how work was done and how it should be done. When she moved to a smaller company around 2010 and experienced transparency, collaboration, and the freedom to ask any question without fear, she realized this was the agile mindset — even before she knew the term. The key insight: agile isn't something you adopt, it's something that aligns with values you may already hold. That alignment between personal principles and ways of working is what makes the difference between going through the motions and genuinely transforming how a team operates. Don't Be an Agile Zombie "The first thing I observe — if I go to some of the ceremonies and I see that stand-up becomes like a status meeting, and everybody is reporting to somebody. People are afraid to say some of the things, afraid to escalate risks or assumptions."   One of the strongest chapters in the book is titled "Don't Be an Agile Zombie." Natalia describes teams that have all the boards, all the roles, all the right meeting cadences — but nothing is actually changing. The Scrum Master becomes a secretary. The Product Owner is a proxy afraid to make decisions. The tell-tale signs? Fear and formality. When people report upward instead of collaborating sideways, when risks go unspoken because the environment punishes transparency, that's a watermelon project — green on the outside, red on the inside. Natalia's approach starts with observing the tone and dynamics in ceremonies. If the stand-up feels like a status report and not a coordination meeting, something deeper is broken. And her advice is direct: if an organization is delivering waterfall and happy with the predictability and value, that's fine — just call it what it is. Don't put lipstick on a pig. As Rebecca Homkes discussed on this podcast, the key is to communicate the truth with care, but communicate it nonetheless. Task-Driven vs. Value-Driven: The Real Spectrum "It's not right to say that you are agile if you are not. Just name the things how they are — name the things using the right word."   Rather than the old waterfall-vs-agile binary, a more useful lens is the spectrum between task-driven and value-driven product development. On the task-driven side, somebody creates the list of tasks — requirements, architecture document, design document — and a project manager distributes them. Teams execute but aren't asked to be creative or adaptable. On the value-driven side, what matters is the impact of what teams build. Value is discovered through the dynamic interaction of functionality with customers — it can't be predetermined. Most organizations sit somewhere on this spectrum, and many are slowly moving toward the value-driven end even if they don't call it agile. The practical takeaway: transformation should be tailored to where an organization actually is, not where a framework says it should be. The book argues for a pragmatic, hybrid approach rather than evangelical purity. Systems Thinking: Why Transformations Snap Back "We did a big agile transformation — five years of real transformation. Then the company was bought, merged with a bigger payment provider. And now they are working with SAFe. And that's the end of the story."   In the later part of the book, Natalia and her co-author move into systems thinking — Cynefin, the Iceberg Model, causal loop diagrams. Many agile practitioners stop before they get here because it feels academic. But Natalia argues it's essential, and she illustrates why with a real example: a payment company that went through five years of successful agile transformation using LeSS, only to be acquired by a larger organization that pushed SAFe — and the transformation snapped back. This is the basin of attraction concept: a system has to pass through a point of genuine disruption before it can settle into a new stable state. Without that, it returns to where it was. For practitioners looking to get started with systems thinking, Natalia recommends The Fifth Discipline by Peter Senge and learning to build causal loop diagrams — a practical tool that creates productive conversations about how organizational dynamics actually work. The Post-Agile Era: Beyond Labels "It's like comparing apples and orchestras. You cannot compare agile and AI — they are completely different things. Agile is not enough, but it's also not dead."   Natalia addresses the "Agile is dead" debate head-on. Her argument: comparing agile to AI is a category error. An apple cannot play an orchestra, and an orchestra cannot replace an apple — they serve entirely different purposes. AI can handle a significant portion of day-to-day tasks, but it lacks common sense, empathy, and the ability to read a room. Rather than declaring agile dead, Natalia sees a post-agile era — not one where agile disappears, but where we move beyond the label wars. The trends that matter aren't about whether agile is popular; they're about collaboration, adaptability, and understanding how teams and organizations actually work. We can finally talk about what matters in our industry without being pressured to label it. About Natalia Curusi Natalia Curusi is an Agile Coach at Endava with over 20 years in software delivery, specializing in agile transformations, delivery optimization, and systems thinking. She leads Asia Pacific initiatives driving business agility. She is co-author of From Resistance to Resilience: Practical Agile Lessons for Transformation.   You can link with Natalia Curusi on LinkedIn and visit her website at nataliacurusi.com. You can also join the Agile Continuum community on LinkedIn.