It's springtime, which means that Princeton University Press is having its annual 50% off spring sale. From May 4th through June 9th, you can get 50% off nearly every single print, e-book, and audiobook from Princeton University Press. Just go to press.prinston.edu to get 50% off incredible books like Disneyland and the Rise of Automation. And beyond belief, how evidence shows what really works.
There are so many fantastic books you can get an incredible deal on. Go to press.prinston.edu and use the code spring50. That's sp-r-i-n-g-50 at press.prinston.edu. This day only lasts for a month, so go and get some books.
Hello, and welcome to Humanities Matter, brought to you by Brill. I'm Lee Jung-Grechko, and this week we'll be looking at key issues in the field of humanities. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Mirela Klom.
She's an assistant professor of practical theology, the Protestant, theological university, and the Netherlands. Her book is Plain on Resdaging the Passion After the Death of God. Dr. Klom, thank you so much for talking with us today.
I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for the invitation. So first of all, how did you decide to focus your research on contemporary musical performances of the Passion? Well, it all started with the observation that narratives from the Christian tradition, as well as large musical forms that arise from this tradition, have started to transfer, or have started to being transferred from the Church and the Liturgy as a context to the wider domain of the culture.
So this has been going on for, I think, well, 150 years at least, but it tends to occur more often. And we were wondering, together with the team that I worked in at the time, we were wondering what actually happens there, because we saw that the Dutch shelter is often said to be one of the most secularized cultures in Western Europe, then why, for what reason, do people appreciate these Christian narratives and Christian music? Why do they keep going to concerts in concert halls to listen to, for instance, a box, a Mateus Bachon, or other types of sacred music? Why do they keep referring to symbols and also in the language to Christian notions?
And how does that relate? So I decided to focus on the transfer of music to the wider domain of the culture and the transformations that go together with these transfers. And then I chose to focus on passions as one of the large musical forms arising from the Christian tradition that have roots that go back to, well, the first ages of Christianity. And I'm wondering if we can talk about those roots a little bit more.
I found your book really fascinating as someone who grew up Catholic, has seen a lot of different productions of the Passion. Even ones in the Church can be very theatrical, very dramatic, for those who aren't familiar with the Passion. Can you explain its place in Christianity? And then what does this particular Dutch production of it look like?
How does a Passion in Gouda differ from a Passion in Jerusalem, for example? Well, I think the Passion, well, we could say I think that the Passion is one of the most, well, it's at the heart of Christianity. The Passion narrative is about the suffering and death of Jesus Christ, followed by the narrative of the resurrection of Christ. That's officially not part of the Passion narrative, although it follows, of course, after the death, the story of the resurrection.
The story continues. That's the base. That's the heart of Christianity. That death is not the end of it.
But there is a new mourning and that there's life after death that has been explained and appropriated in many different ways in Christianity. But that's another issue, I think. But the heart of the Christian tradition is Christ who suffered, who was crucified. And that was buried and that has been repeated and that story has been told and handed down as part of the Christian tradition for ages.
So I think that with every time that the story is being told or being staged or being performed, it becomes more and more part of us, I would also say. So the ones who listen to it are able to often able to connect their own lives to this story, not that everybody is crucified, unfortunately, that's not the case. It means that the suffering of Jesus relates to the suffering of human beings. So everyone who suffers today in every suffering body Christ can be found, Jesus Christ, the key figure in Christianity.
So I think that that's the reason why it's a very important narrative that has not only been told but also been set to music. And there's a long tradition of new settings, musical settings of this narrative. And in the past decade in the Netherlands, there is a rather modern form of fashion that has become very popular in which I think the makers of this of this passion event, because it's an event or a spectacle, try to link the things that are going on in people's lives in communities, in cities, and in Dutch society, try to relate that to the passion narrative. So there's obviously a lot of universal themes going on here.
If I saw the passion in the Netherlands, what would it look like? Would there be something particularly Dutch about the productions that you're looking at here? Yes, well, the most striking Dutch element is the fact that the narrative is told by narrator, but in between all these scenes, there's music, which is Dutch music, secular Dutch music, that one could also hear on the radio, listen to on the radio. So simply Dutch pop songs that have been chosen to help and to support the narration of this passion.
And that means that for instance, a love story, or a love song, I should say, a love song between two lovers within the framework of the passion narrative gets an extra layer. So all of a sudden when the Jesus figure in the passion sings this song, then the love he sings about or the one he loves is his mother because he's the sage in front of his mother. And that means that when people after this passion event hear that music again on the radio, they are reminded of this passion event and are reminded of the Christ narrative, the passion narrative. So that's so fascinating how they take the secular part of Dutch culture, these Dutch pop songs that you might hear on the radio and make it so that it reminds people of the passion of the Christ.
Can you talk a little bit more about this concept of the death of God that you write about in your book. What's the death of God and why are you looking for God's presence in public spaces. So, when you have these people who are atheist or who maybe just don't go to church as much as they used to, and they, as you say, quote, experience the sacred. I mean, that they are experiencing it in a deeply religious way, like in an almost, you know, being converted back to Christianity way or do you think maybe it's much more simple that they are just enjoying this spectacle.
I mean, you have photos included in this book. It's a very large production. It looks very entertaining in the same way that, you know, movies about the passion or other sage shows about the passion, like Andrew Lloyd Webbers Jesus Christ Superstar are also entertaining for people who don't necessarily believe in Christianity. I certainly think that that's all that is the case, but I wouldn't say it's opposed to the religious aspect of it, not necessarily at least.
And the most simple comparison to make, I think, is the historical event of the passion of the Christ was what which was a spectacle. And for some it was entertainment to see this man with a cross on his shoulders. People yell and people were interested to see what happened there. And so this whole historic event was a spectacle.
And I think that that spectacle aspect has never been gone from the passion, but that doesn't necessarily mean that in the event and in the spectacle and in the entertainment aspect of it that's a place where God cannot be found or cannot occur or could not approach people and where people cannot find God. I think that that's what I've tried to develop in my book that God can be found everywhere and that there's no place on Earth where God doesn't want to be. So that means that I don't see an opposition between entertainment, between marketing also, because there's also a marketing aspect of this event and religious experiences. I mean, we should know one of the funniest anecdotes that you have, I think in this book was that I believe you mentioned a lingerie store, even capitalized on the path.
You say that there's no opposition to marketing, but that does seem opposed to the overall message, doesn't it? I don't think it does. Why should it be opposed to the overall message? That's true, I suppose.
I mean, it's, well, it certainly seems a little bit different than some of the strict rules of Catholicism, but that might be a cast for another day. Well, no, I think you're right about that, absolutely. But still, I think that why wouldn't God be willing to be present in the bodies of people and also in the how we are bodily, how we're shaped and how we relate to physically relate to each other. So it may be surprising and it may not be the first place, a lingerie store may not be the first place where we would expect both.
That's absolutely true that I agree with you about that. But still, I think that the unthinkable can be can become real. I think that that's what this passion narrative shows us, tells us, and what the resurrection tells us. So from that perspective, it may not be such a weird place for Cross2 to pop up in the window of a lingerie store.
I think one of the most interesting points you make is how so many people experience this in the Netherlands as a tradition that's almost down par with going to mass. You said yourself, I believe that you were so excited to get that comb and flip on the passion on TV that you sort of felt like you rushed through the actual mass. So I'm wondering what do you say to those who criticized the passion as superficial? I'd say, well, I'd say a number of things, but one of the things I have said in the past 10 years during this research, there were many people who came to me, Christians who came to me and asked, why do the organizers of the passion stage this event on Monday Thursday when we have our worship services?
Can't they just go to it on another day because it's disturbing because we cannot enter our city, we cannot reach our churches because the event has taken up the entire city or the marketplace or the big square of the entire city. And then I often ask them whether they thought they were the owners of this, and I did that in a very, I tried to do that in a very kind way, but I asked them, who do you think the story belongs to? Who owns this story, this narrative? And oftentimes that was, well, interesting conversation that we had, but sometimes indeed Christians appear to think that the story was theirs and that other people should just have it well at their own times, but that they came second, so to speak, I would say two things.
The first is sometimes liturgy and the worship service can be very superficial as well. So is that a disqualification? That would be the first thing. And the second thing is that even in this superficial event, sometimes things can occur which you don't expect.
And we should judge the passion on the basis of what it wants to be. It wants to be an event for people who are not familiar with the passion narrative with Jesus Christ because that's where it all started. The first edition of this event was in 2011 when about 75% of the Dutch youth appeared to be unaware of what Easter was about. And so that's where that's why they started the whole thing.
And just presents this narrative as a narrative that is relevant, but also interesting or also just fun is something that this event wanted to do, what the makers wanted to do. And so it was a very important thing to convert people, not necessarily wanted to convert people to Christianity, but they wanted to be aware that this narrative has been an important narrative for ages. And that could be a start. So I think it's not, and it's for the brother public, that was also the aim to bring the story back to the streets.
And on the streets, you don't often find very thorough reflections on important events or issues. But with in a different form, the passion may not have become as successful as it has. And that means that many people wouldn't have known about Christ and about depression, about his suffering and death and about resurrection, because every time the passion is staged, it ends with the resurrection. And that's what people keep talking about.
Not provoking research and arguments, Dr. Klomb, but really appreciate you being with us today. Thank you very much. You are listening to the Humanities Matter podcast.
You can find more podcast episodes on Apple Podcast, Spotify and Google Podcast.