brought to you by CHM, a biblically based alternative to health insurance. Learn more at CHMinistries.org slash budget. So me and my wife, first off, huge transit show, we've been doing the baby steps for about a month now. We're totally sold out, changed our life, changed everything about us.
But I guess the issue that we're having is we've been attending a church for about 10 years, 11 years, I don't, somewhere around there. And well, our pastor is in the line with this viewpoint of debt that we now have. And we're just, we're just wondering how to navigate that. Because like I said, it's changed everything about our life.
So when you say he's not aligned, is he, is he from the pulpit talked about debt? Um, let me think from the pulpit. No, but I know close relationship with him. I know his viewpoints.
Okay. And in the way, you know, the church structure is, and I'm not hating on my love. The guy's done so much more. But I, you know, it's, it's mentally, it's mentally straining.
You know, his mentality is you'll always have debt, that's a part of life for it. Wow. Has he read as a book out there? It's called the Bible.
Has he looked into that? Yeah. Okay. How does he reconcile, you know, Proverbs 22 seven, the borrower slave to the lender?
Yeah, like I said, I don't think he's, I don't, you know, I don't think he's preached a message on debt or use that passage. I think, you know, he just, you know, he looked in, you know, everybody, you know, just like everybody else, you know, looks at the world we live in and, you know, everybody uses debt, you know, they think they've leveraged debt or whatever. Okay. Let me throw another one at you.
Be not conformed. You know, that one to the pad of this world, be renewed by it. Is that not ring a bell for him either? That we shouldn't conform to culture and the stupidity of it?
No, I totally get what you're saying. Okay. So I don't have a theological basis for this. These are just like just spitball and listen, you're dropping scripture, George, there's no shame in your game.
Here's my question. So William, the pastor is not, you're not calling because the pastor is preaching this and trying to lead the flock and all this. He's not anti you and your wife being a part of the baby steps and FPU and all that stuff. It's just when you guys are having conversation, you're kind of on fire and you're talking about all this and this is just kind of two dudes talking and he just kind of glibly throws out.
Yeah, you know, and this kind of just bothers you a little bit. Is that what I'm getting? Yeah, because it's different than a friend, you know, he's my pastor and I love the guy. Yeah, but here's my question.
What is your question for us? Yeah, I don't, you know, it's, so for me, me and my wife now, this is, this, this has become part of our doctrine, you know, for me, because I've struggled for so many years when me and my wife got married ever since we got married, that has been such a huge thing for us. It's, it's kept me up at night for everything you guys talk about. And then we started the baby steps and there's peace now.
Right. And but to be in a position where you don't feel comfortable to talk with someone, you know, you respect because you know the response. It's just, it's mentally draining. So are you having this conversation all the time with him?
No, no, that's the thing. Like I said, we just started, I haven't really brought it up to him. Yeah, I don't know. Okay, so here's what I'm trying to get at.
So William, I feel, I feel you. I understand what you're saying. However, I think you've got this thing worked up really big in your mind. And I think it's actually not that big a deal.
And here's what I mean. If this, if his view on debt as your pastor is, is got you to a place where you just are uncomfortable with him on other issues, it's time for you to go find another church. However, I want to point out that as a pastor's kid, that you you'd have to decide what is it? What is that relationship look like?
What do I want it to look like? And is this something that is worthy of me leaving the church? And if it is, fine, that is your prerogative. I got zero problem with it.
But if you can still sit under his preaching and you feel like he's leading the church in a fiscally responsible way, because a lot of churches, here's the other not so secret secret. There's a lot of churches out there that have debt and use debt and they pay it off and they use it to build building and everything else. So I'm not quite sure. You don't really have a question for us.
You're just going to go, what do you guys think? And so what I think is, is that if this is a stumbling block for you, another scripture, and he is a stumbling block for you, then remove yourself out of the path of the stumbling block. He doesn't think he's stumbling block. So you're not going to change his views on debt.
And this is a guy that knows all that scripture. He knows it backwards, forwards, most likely. I hope so. And he's glib about it.
So don't let this be a distress to you. It shouldn't be. You're given that way too much power, George. Yeah, I'm not saying, Hey, you need to leave the church tomorrow.
I'm saying if you can't deal with the incongruency and you also don't trust his leadership anymore, then I think that's going to weigh on you just like it would in a career. If you don't trust your leadership, you think there's a lack of integrity there. It doesn't align with your values. Eventually that's going to eat away at your soul.
And so I'm telling you that would be a reason to leave. But if you're like, Hey, good guy, theologically sound, we disagree on on debt as a tool. All right, that's a different situation. This is a piece of this, Ken.
And my church, we inherited, there was a church merger, they inherited $7 million of debt. And they looked up and said, we're giving a million dollars in interest to lenders every single year. What if we aggressively attacked this as a church and we freed up that million dollars to do the work of the church? And that's exactly what they did.
And now they're able to fund ministries and new projects and they're building, you know, centers for recovery. And they have a whole ministry for single parents to fund car repairs and furnish cars for them. That's the kind of stuff you can do when you're debt free instead of, Oh, we got to make payments. So that's what you're right.
Your times are down to kids. Yeah. And this is a relational issue. And I want to hang out here for just a second, George, because I think this is important.
And I think I want to help William as best we can. But I have very good friends, George. I mean, very good friends. I love being with these friends.
But we don't agree on some stuff. I mean, like the kind of stuff that's like big stuff. And if we were to constantly talk about that, it would create a real tension. But I have found we don't need to talk about it.
Because here's what I know. They have thought and decided a long time ago, this is what they think about this particular issue. This is their worldview on this issue. Sorry.
So why? And I'm not changing it. And neither are they. Everybody's aware.
We didn't sit down and have this conversation where I'm laying it out. But we just kind of know that there's sort of an unspoken boundary there. We kind of know where we are. And because we value being around each other, we just steer clear of that particular topic.
And the relationship is one of my, it's one of my favorite friends. So I just got to tell you, I appreciate William, but there's this crusader mentality. We have it here in the building. And when people's lives are changed by the baby steps and this philosophy, you want to share that good news.
It's the same as somebody coming to faith. Maybe they were an agnostic or an atheist and their life is transformed literally by this good news. And what do they want to do? They want to share it everywhere.
Why don't you get this? Why? Why don't you get this? And not everybody gets the baby steps.
Not even thinks it even matters. And it feels like this. It's this real weird deal for William and a lot of us when we are so passionate and convicted about something that has transformed us. So here's the deal.
Not everybody's gonna get it. And that's not up to you. Well, you just gave me a like moment. I think William should lead a financial piece university class in the church, start a ground swell movement of people going, hey, we became dead for you in a personal life.
What's going on with the church? What if we could become dead for you in the church? What could we do? And the pastor's probably not gonna be against that.
The pastor just goes, no, my personal life, I don't mind carrying this and I don't mind this. I mean, I get it. It's a tough situation. But you don't have to lose relationships over some of this stuff is my point.
Do you? I mean, do you. It's hard enough to live your life, you know, trying to live someone else's Hey, yeah, I don't know. So anyway, food for thought.
Thanks William for the call. You're a good man. CHM isn't health insurance. It's a health cost sharing ministry.
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