This is the conversation people need to begin having with themselves and with their advisors about their money. How am I doing against my potential? And that's what we turn on life does. It says, let's utilize our money, let's facilitate our money, let's manage our money in a way that helps us live the absolute best life we can right now.
Welcome to Keen on Retirement, a show dedicated to helping you thrive before and during your retirement years. If you are looking to grow and protect your wealth and want to make the second half of your life the best half, then listen in as well as advisor Bill Keen and his host sort through the key issues that you need to know in a lively and candid way. Bill, we've got another special episode here and we have a special guest with us. And our guest today is Mitch Anthony.
Mitch is the president of Advisor Insights and Mitch does a lot of things. I've known Mitch for a number of years now. Mitch is a best selling author. He is an expert on retirement planning.
He is one of the most sought after speakers in the financial industry. He's a very frequently published author in a periodical such as the Journal of Financial Planning. And he also is the host of a radio show, a daily show called The Daily Dose, which is heard on over 100 radio stations around the country. So Mitch, welcome to Keen on Retirement.
Hey, thanks for having me Dave. Bill, I appreciate it. You're welcome. Thank you, Mitch, for agreeing to come on our show with us today.
And Mitch, we really want to talk today about this idea of return on life. And so often in our industry, we talk about return on investment. We're trying to figure out how can we get a better return on our investments, but you've spent a good part of your life talking about how to get a return on life. What do you mean by that?
You know, I'd like our listeners to think about the idea with you had all the money you could ever handle, but you had nothing else. What would be the point, right? Money is nothing more than a utility to help us move toward the things we want in life. And if we're not clear about what we want out of life, we might not be clear in our actions with money.
So I, if you guys don't mind, I have a couple of working definitions of return on life. Just a couple ways of helping people remember the concept. The first is getting the best life I can with the money I have. And the reason I pen that description is because I just got tired of commercials with people walking through airports with a number.
The implication of that sort of advertising is that you can't have a life until you have the number. But the irony of the number is a lot of your listeners bill will relate to this because I'm sure you've helped them reach a lot of their financial goals. A lot of times when we crossed that number say 20 years ago, we thought, wow, if I ever had XYZ, zero zero zero zero, right? That is going to be the greatest thing.
And you know what happens to people? They cross that number and don't even notice. Life just goes on and you just keep moving. And it's really not about any certain amount of money.
And then the second definition I like to give it, and this is something that Bill, I'm sure you help your people do all the time. And that is managing my money in a way that improves my life. And so there's so much and I'd love to hear what you do on a daily basis with clients to help move in that direction. But the bottom line here is money's nothing more than utility.
And I have this picture. I wish I would have brought it to the conversation today. I had an artist draw this because they say a metaphor is worth a thousand pictures. And the picture is of a sailboat and the sale is made out of the dollar.
Okay. Okay. And so how we define money is money is a utility that we skillfully manipulate in order to navigate. And it's really important in that picture to realize money's not the shore we're headed toward.
It's not the sea we sail upon nor is it the vessel upon which we sail. It's nothing but a utility. And it reminds me of I think it was Walter Cronkite. He had a little joke where he said when I was young, I thought someday when I retired, I would retire with a 65 foot boat and a 30 year old wife.
But what I discovered was I retired with a 30 foot boat and a 65 year old wife. And he was probably happy. And he was happy. That's right.
That's right. And I don't know if you knew this or not, but we quoted you. We did an episode last time or a couple episodes ago where we were talking about retirement quotes. And you were my opening quote by the way, just so you know.
To me, it's really important that people have ways of remembering these concepts, right? So one of the things that enters into this conversation, Bill and Steve, is the idea, if we're going to move on toward something better, we need to show the flaws in what we've been doing. And what ROL stands in stark contrast to is ROI. And whenever you get into the return on investment conversation, it's almost always, not 100% time, but almost always done on a comparative basis.
How did you do against name any index you want? You're lying golf partners index, right? How did you do against the XYZ, the S&P? I told this to Steve, one of my favorite phrases these days, Bill, is if we're going to measure progress by the standard and poor, we're using a very poor standard.
Because what does the standard and poor have to do with me, right? And there's a psychological law people need to wrap their minds around, and that is comparison is the killer of contentment. And I've got a friend who put this so beautifully, he said, you know, when you're on the water, on a boat, you brought up boats. He said, it doesn't matter if you're out there on a dinghy or a 50 foot yacht, you just love it on the water.
He says, not until you come into the harbor that you get discontented, because you're starting to compare yourself to other people. Well, I've watched this for years, and people, the whole system of comparing how they're doing to something else or someone else only breeds discontentment. The bottom line is, you know, if my kid came home with a 2.87 grade point, I wouldn't say, gee, Johnny, you know what, you're almost average. You're almost to the national average for seventh graders.
I'm really proud of you. Now, I don't care how he compares to the average student America. What I care about is how close are you to your potential? And this is the conversation people need to begin having with themselves and with their advisors about their money.
How am I doing against my potential? And that's what we turn on life, it says, let's utilize our money, let's facilitate our money, let's manage our money in a way that helps us live the absolute best life we can right now. We're not waiting for a number to live our life. See, and I love that about your work is you're talking about now.
You're not just talking about some magic point in the future, working towards a horizon that never gets here. And that's inspiring to us and to our clients. And I'll tell you Mitch, I have a good fortune of working with a group of clients here that have been planners and savers and thinkers by nature. I just came out of a meeting just 30 minutes ago, because I'm practicing financial advisor and talking about these things to people every day.
And in our first meeting that we have with a client, it's not till the very end that we talk numbers. We talk about everything but numbers until the end of the meeting, trying to understand how someone has gotten to wear their hat on their journey and how they think and what's important to them, fears, goals, dreams, and the numbers are insular. Of course, you have to fund this thing. That's right.
But they're insular to all those other things. And that's why I've been so inspired by your work over the years. I just so on point with it. And I think there's so many financial brokers out there, advisors, there's so many folks that are totally missing the mark on this when they're attempting to advise clients.
You know that? Yeah, you're right. We have to fund this thing, but we have to find it before we fund it. The problem is a lot of people don't spend the time to find exactly what is it I'm hoping to get for my money.
And we have to be realistic about what money can and cannot do for our lives. You know, it's interesting. I was just talking to a friend of mine today who's my personal advisor. He's telling me about some clients that just died.
They were school teachers. They died in their 80s. They left almost $3 million to their children. And these people never made more than $36,000 in a year, right?
Yes. You know how teacher pensions can compound over time. By the end of their lives, they were getting $100,000 in teacher pension checks three times with the ever made as a teacher. But the irony of this story is that they lived on their social security because they settled into a lifestyle that they were happy with and it only took that much money to fund it.
And the rest of it, they saved and it grew, which to me speaks to this point from a different angle. And that is, you know what, you have to figure out what money can and can't do for you. And if you can live a life that makes you happy for $2,500 a month, go for it. That's right.
Not everybody can. But at the end of the day, we had too many messages in our country that just beat people over the head and constantly remind them, either subtly or not so subtly, you don't have enough. Well, let's just stop that conversation for a moment and ask, what do you have and what's the best way to utilize it? Absolutely.
And just the quote that we used from your book, the New Retirement Tali 4th Edition, right? I believe out there now was it talked about this machination of this retirement at 62 that was just a shortsighted and unnecessary idea that kind of came about from eons ago that we're still holding onto for some reason. And Bill, I got the quote here. I pulled it up here.
Okay. Very nice. Yeah. So Mitch, we're going to repeat your words back to you.
Retirement is not a great idea, especially at age 62. In fact, retirement as we know it today is a relic from a time in a world that has long since passed. In the context of our modern age, conventional ideas about retirement are not only inappropriate but counterproductive. The concept of retirement was a shortsighted political machination and social manipulation which is no longer relevant and is hopelessly out of touch with our times.
Man, what do you really think about that? I must, I like to happen to you when I wrote that. I don't think I pronounced machination correctly either. I got a picture of a conversation this week.
Well, can we delve into this retirement thing for a little bit? You bet. Please. Okay.
So the whole thing that I think is helpful for people to understand is what it is that they trade for a paycheck today versus what people traded for a paycheck back when retirement was invented. Retirement is a fairly new phenomenon. It was invented in 1885 as we know it today. It's a 100 year old concept.
But what people traded for a paycheck was, and I use this term loosely, but they traded physical capital or physical output. Okay. So it was raw physical strength on the industrial line. You know, it was working with your hands.
And so it made sense to the industrialist that at age 60 you might be waning in your motivation and your physical stamina. And I could replace you with a 22 year old in my machinery with resumency. So I'll give a nod to the industrialist mindset on that issue. But now we have to step back and ask yourself, what are you trading for a paycheck today?
Is it raw physical output or is it intellectual capital? Right? So for most people they're trading intellectual capital. So now my first question about intellectual capital as well.
Does intellectual capital appreciate or depreciate with time and maturity? Well, there's a catch to that question. The catch is it appreciates unless you fail to use it. Right?
There's a recent Warren Buffett still advising at 85 and didn't quit at 65. Now remember a quote from him at 65. He knew if he discontinued doing what he's doing, his intellectual capital would depreciate. Right?
Yes. And then the second thing that we're trading, a lot of your listeners or clients are trading, is what I call relational capital. They've built relationships and networks of people where they're able to distribute ideas and products and services. And so the next question I ask people is, does relational capital appreciate or depreciate over time and with maturity?
And we all know the answer to that. Right? Right? Appreciate.
So we have the things we're trading for a paycheck today both appreciate with maturity. It's called the experience economy. That's right. That's right.
Wisdom from the journey, isn't it? Yeah. If you had to have a surgery and you came to Mayo Clinic where I live, Bill, you want the surgeon who's done 4000 surgeries or the one that's done 12. And that's the easy answer.
And then if I said, well, wait a minute, the guy has done 4000, it's going to cost you 50% more. Would you care? Would not care. That's what I'd care.
Experience pays the bills today. And by the way, this is interesting. One contrary, Finland just named experience as its number one resource. Wow.
It's number one natural resource experience. Spain just released a study where they demonstrate for every dollar they spend to keep people from retiring at 62. It pays back $129 into their economy. Now, when can we figure that out over here?
Well, it's common. I'm just going to tell you the experience economy. There's numbers to back it up. And this experience pays the bills today.
So, you know, we have this culture that has inculcated the way we think. And there's an assumption built into our culture that says, if you're this age, you should do this. Well, I got news for it. That's an age-just foundation for a policy.
Yes, it is. And the assumption that all people are equal in ability, output, and potential at any given age is a wrong idea. Absolutely. And don't you believe that the work that we're trying to do to bring attention to this and to stimulate folks to think about what the second half of life looks like?
We call it the best half, actually, from where they've come to over time. I mean, what else can we do to bring this to the attention of folks? Mitch, I'm trying to do it one person at a time in our practice, but what else can we do? I think you're probably doing it.
I think we need to ask better questions and we need to broaden the dialogue. And so, I like to put it this way to people. You manage your money, but you invest your life. How are you going to invest your life?
Right? And you've got all this experience, all these ideas, all these skills, all these aptitudes. You think you're just going to turn the keys in and lay all that stuff aside and pretend every day is Saturday and be happy for the rest of your life. I got news for you.
You're going to wake up on day 43 and realize you don't have any purpose anymore. We see it after about 30 to 60 days, folks. Don't you? Yeah, it feels like a long vacation and then after somewhere between 30 and 60 days, folks say, wait a second.
If they haven't thought this through ahead of time, then they start to say, wow, what is this about? What are we doing here? Yeah, well, did you know Bill that most people, and this is a fact, there's actually a study to prove this, that most people spend more time planning a 10 to 14 day vacation than they do a 30 year retirement? I believe it.
They think their time is going to take care of itself and it's not. And here's the best retirement. Enough purpose to wake up in the morning and enough money to sleep at night. Yes.
Okay. But here's the thing about purpose. Money cannot produce a purpose. It can only fund a preexisting purpose.
So we've been sold on the idea that having enough money is enough. It's not. That's right. Well, if it was, 70% of the lottery winners that lose everything within a few years would have remained happy, wouldn't they?
Yeah, right. Exactly. So this conversation about return on life, if I can just kind of complete the circle, because retirement is a perfect example of the return on life discussion. So there are a lot of people that got to that age and got to the number, right?
They got to age 65 and they got to the number say it was 3 million. They thought they needed and they retired and then something happens. And we've all seen all your listeners have seen happen to people about the RV that never left the driveway. Somebody had a stroke.
You know, there's things happen. And so what we have to realize is that's why this conversation has to start now, not at age 65. We don't need to backload living our life. Let's start this conversation right now.
How can I get the best life possible with the money I have right now without being irresponsible? Right. So one of the things that I think is also interesting about this conversation is in the financial industry and Bill, feel free to jump in here. The emphasis has always been on the destination and the destination has been retirement.
And you talk about Mitch, your number, is it 3 million, 2 million? Whatever the number is that once I hit that number, I'll have enough that I won't have to worry too much about money until I die. And yet I think it's about the whole journey. It's not about I'm 40 years old and I've got to scrimp and save, so I have enough money.
It's like, I need to enjoy time now while being responsible. And so that's kind of one thing. And then the second thing is that with advances in technology, we may all be willing to do that. We may all be living a lot longer than we expected.
And so this idea of I retire at 65 and I die at 80 or 85 may go out the window in the not too distant future. And so I think that's something that has implications both from a financial standpoint that if I'm going to be living and living fairly healthily, if that's a word until I'm 90, 95, 100 years old, what is the financial implication of that? And then second, what am I going to do with my time? I mean, I'm not going to be playing golf for 40 years.
And so I think there's just some interesting things that will be developing here in the upcoming years. That's right. And I'm seeing folks have, I say second careers, but if they're doing things that they had not done in their primary career, things completely different. In the Midwest here, we have a lot of Boy Scouts.
So I'm seeing Eagle Scouts returning back into scouting and spending the entire summers at the scout camps. Of course, they're not being paid for that. They are being paid. They're being paid and what they're giving back.
I've got a one client who decided to get his pilot's license in his 60s and he just has this commitment to doing what's called the Angel Flight. So he's got to get his VFR license instrument rating, get 250 hours, and he'll be able to donate his time flying people to hospitals in different places, patients like that, total donations. So I'm seeing people working for pay, and then I'm seeing people also just doing things that feed their soul, whether they're not getting paid for it. That almost part of it's irrelevant.
A little paycheck coming with something that's nice, but it's not necessary in most cases. The beauty of money is that if you've been responsible with it and you've helped it grow and you haven't gotten in the way, one of the great things money does produce for us is the freedom to do what we want with our time. And one of the mistakes I think we've made in our culture is we've defined wealth by a number. Let me quote one of the great persons of all time, maybe the grace versus all time who said wealth is not measured in an abundance of things.
And that's what we're going to do. We're going to be able to build a wealth of wealth from Jesus. Having a bunch of things and having a lot of money doesn't make us wealthy. Having experiences where we're able to bring our gifts to others and help them and encourage other people and use our abilities in that way.
And this is sort of the balance that people ought to be, I would hope they'd want to strive for in their retirement years. And the balance between what do I want to do and what do I want to give? And then there's a balance between vacation and vocation. We've been sold a bill of goods bill on the leisure life entitlement retirement.
We've been sold a bill of goods that was literally invented by Dell Web. Dell Web came up with the terms golden age, golden age, and he literally invented this concept of the leisure life entitlement. You've worked hard enough, now you've got to play your life away. And I have a lot for you, and there's a garage that fits the golf cart, and you can weave home from the 19th hole every night.
Right. And guess what? The research is in on all that. And what they found out is that there's a law diminishing returns on leisure that what people really need is not a life of full-time leisure.
They need the balance between vacation and vocation. And if you don't have some vocation in your life like your client who's a pilot there, the leisure begins to lose its meaning. It begins to lose its luster. Absolutely.
And I'm involved in several organizations where business owners get together and talk about things. There's been several that have had sold businesses for large sums of money, and they try to attempt to retire. And typically Steve isn't your experience, maybe six to 12 months. They're on the quote beach before they're back into another type of business of some kind because they're just completely bored.
Oh, yeah. I mean, clearly we all have to have meaning and purpose in our life. We've got to have a reason to get up out of bed in the morning, and oftentimes people that have had successful business careers, entrepreneurs that have sold businesses, they're type A personalities, and they're not bred for a life of leisure. They've got to get out there.
They've got to be hitting the ball out of the park. They've got to feel like they're making an impact. And I don't think that's just limited to type A entrepreneurs. I think all of us have a part of us that wants to be able to contribute and feel like there's a reason why we're here on this earth, and that we are using our skills and our talents to help the people around us and help the people in our community.
That's right. And you know, I'll say one more thing about it. I have a lot of people that have done 30, 40, 45 years in a professional career where they enjoyed it. I mean, they enjoyed what they did.
Most of them enjoyed what they did. So I'm not saying don't ever retire. They've earned the right to retire from that specific work. But again, my experience supports it specifically what Mitch is saying, that folks want to maybe leave that old environment, but then be inspired and ignited by these other passions.
You know, I mentioned a couple other podcasts and Mitch, I'll share with you. I had a client retire, nearly 70 years old, and got into competitive cycling, something he was doing back when he was a kid. He competed in the senior Olympics here not long ago and has just gotten in great shape, best shape of his life in his 70s. Really fascinating to see it.
That's fantastic. Well, I got to say this to you. You bring up Taipei personnel and it's not just them. I was in a sports bar here about two weeks ago and I heard there were these electricians that were working next door, right?
And they came in on a Friday evening and they were chatting and I was eavesdropping on the conversation because they started talking about electricians who had, and these are well-paid guys. They're craftsmen. They're well-paid. And they're talking about guys who would retire.
And what about this one? Oh, he's real sick now. And what about this one? Oh, he died.
What about this one? Well, anyway, when they got to the end of the conversation, they asked the oldest electrician at the table. I said, what do you think? And he's like, why don't you retire from being electrician?
You probably got two years. Wow. It blew my mind. We think of business guys.
We don't think of craftsmen and that kind of thing. Right? We think of business owners and that sort of thing when we're talking about retirement. But think about that.
Two years. Well, here's the problem. The problem is we don't have the conversation to help these people move into that stage of life and have an idea. The first way to fail in retirement is to retire from something and not to something.
Like, this walking away from a 35-year career doing something isn't enough. But guess what? The world says to you, hey, you've done it, buddy. You made it.
You got the money in the bank. You have got it made. Give this guy a gold crown, right? Then he wakes up and he's trying to tell himself all along.
Every day he's going to be savvy. He's going to be the greatest thing ever and about the fourth Saturday he's going, real? That's right. All I've been attempting to do is let's have a more realistic conversation about not just retirement, but about money itself and what money can and can't do for our lives.
At the end of the day, Americans are really bad at balance. We go from work in all the time and never playing and we think the cure to that is to play all the time and never work. That's not balance. It's switching your binge.
Right? We got to find a way to just balance vacation and vocation. Some time for me to do the things I want to do and some time for me to give the things I want to give or to engage in things that stimulate me. The opinions expressed in this podcast are for general informational purposes only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual or on any specific security.
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