Hello everybody, I'm Dak Shepherd and this is armchair expert. I'm so delighted to have you join us today because we're talking with someone who was pretty instrumental in me having a desire to have a podcast. I think I did his show the first time five or six years ago and I've done it two or three times. You know him as the Nerdist Chris Hardwick joins us today.
He has a new podcast or maybe it's the same as his old podcast, but it's now called Idiot, but I believe Idiot is spelled I D one zero T. So I don't know if it's idiot or ID 10 T. This is clearly a test that I'm failing. But despite all that, he was a lovely guest.
He also guys back story. He was one of our first interviews and he stayed afterwards and talked with Manak and I at great length and gave us a ton of tips that we then employed. And I think it made the podcast a lot better. So if you find that I'm a little bit interrupting or something, just remember, I hadn't gotten these tips yet, but I love you.
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Chris Hardwick, Jack Shepherd. Welcome to my podcast. Thank you for bringing me into your podcast loft full disclosure. We're doing some remodeling of the main house from which we do the podcast and all the power was cut to the main house and they could work on it.
And I was assured there would be power run to the guest house where we do this podcast. Have you ever done a house before though? Have you ever been ready to house? Not of this scale inside.
Well, just so you know, most of the things that you were told are not true. Yeah. Or you'll show up one day and it's like, why did they tile that wall? It's not only talking to a director of a movie they want you to do for the first time.
So they're like, oh, absolutely. Yeah, you can you can have Mohawk in this movie. Whatever you want. Yeah.
You know, they just want you on board. Yeah. Likewise. Yeah, when you're talking to an architect or a contractor, they're like, oh, you'll be in by Christmas 17.
No problem. And that's not the case at all. Yeah. So suffice to say, when you arrived, I was in quite a state of disarray.
I had gone and got my generator out of my garage at home and I'm running extension cords up to here and I'm deeply embarrassed and humiliated that you had to see me. Not at all. We have one light, which is it's winter hours. It's going to be dark when we're recording this.
Yeah. It's like, yes, it's 4 to 28 PM. So like within minutes, it'll be pitchable. I'm hoping that that adds to your confidence and sharing.
I'm hoping that you wait a minute. Can I just pitch an idea? Yeah. You should do all future podcast where it's pitch black to see if people like reveal anything more intimate about them.
Yeah. They're just in the dark. I agree of anonymity. In the dark with deck shepherd, dark cast.
Dark cast? I bet there's already a dark cast. They're about. Yes.
The talks about weapons. Yeah. We were on the same. We were in the same neighborhood.
Yeah. Yeah. No how to throw an axe at a stump. So the first thing I want to talk to you about is you have a very, very successful podcast.
And I have been a guest on it a few times now. Yeah. And I love it. I would imagine one of the liabilities of doing podcasts is that a lot of the people you interview then have podcasts.
And is that the main liability? And this must be so. Sorry. Like, why did yours?
Exactly. Which is bullshit because you don't go on like Letterman and then go, Dave, you owe me. It's like, no, I'm letter. You got the deals complete.
You needed to promote something. I don't know you anything. Your podcast is that big that you don't know anyone, anything. Yeah.
You're incredibly generous because you got my friend Michael Rosenbaum. Yeah. That was super fun. But I have to say, well, first of all, I like you a lot and you're super funny.
And I also, I like being on a podcast. Because like I said, when I got here, I just recorded one for mine and I said, it's so great to not be in the driver's seat. I love sort of just going wherever you want to take it. Because then I feel the difference takes so much pressure.
And it is. It's quite a journey from having tons of practice being interviewed. Then being the interviewee. The interviewer.
Yeah. You're just, you're not free to just kind of go wherever the hell you want. And some has to have some kind of beginning, middle and end. That's on you.
That's an adjustment. You know what the podcast now that we're at eight years, but the thing that I learned the most from the podcast, but you probably already learned from improv training is how to listen to people. That's the most important thing I learned from the podcast. It was like, well, my wife and I went on our first couple of dates.
I was a better data because the podcast taught me how to listen. Yeah. Yeah. That's the only thing I truly do have going for me.
I am really interested in folks. It's just a shit and talk to people. But it's a nice way to sit down with people that you're interested in and just get to know them and find out what they're like as people. We're so conditioned because we're so busy in our daily lives that when you see people were so conditioned to just get out the minimum amount of acceptable intercourse that gets you this sort of how you doing everything good.
You're good. I'm good. Yeah. OK, you're feeling good standing.
We're still in good standing. It's just all check-ins. Yes. I also know that I only know socially.
Like I don't know them because I'm friends with a rock star, but I'm only friends with them because his kids go to school with our best friends kids. So he's around a lot, but I don't know anything about him other than like we went trick or treating five times together. Yeah. But so if you were to sit down and talk, you got to have that person.
I did. I did. Yeah. It wasn't.
Pete Wentz. Oh, nice. Oh, yeah. Oh, he's really nice.
Oh, god. He's like, so nice. I told him. I have to remind myself hourly when I'm around him that he's a rock star because you would forget.
He's just so humble. Yeah. And it was like, you almost were you kind of get angry like, take your fucking tuted up a little bit. Kick something over at this.
Come on, man. It's worth it. You know? Have a tantrum of some kind.
Please. I want to fuck off. Go into a Coke-fueled rant and then fuck my wife. What do you mean?
Come on. Seriously. You're not using this properly. Well, I read that you and this is another fun thing about you and you invariably read shit that's incorrect.
As happens to me when I go on things. They, you know, like I was on the internet. Most things on the internet. So I was on Stern and they I assume went to this website who dated who, right?
So he wants to get into like my past girlfriends. Well, half of them are completely wrong. People have never even met. Sure.
And it sounds like I'm just trying to avoid the question, but genuinely I've never dated those people, but that's the research they did. Right. And it just seems like I'm deflecting, but I just really didn't. You're like, no, no, I did not date.
Sarah Ferguson. You know the weird ones that I've rumored to have dated. Tara Lipinski. Is that a figure?
I'm a skater. Yeah. That's why. And here's why.
I was walking across a crosswalk on Hollywood Boulevard one time, 13 years ago. And she too was in the crosswalk and there was a paparazzi there and they took a photo of us next to each other walking through across. That's it. Isn't that kind of a metaphor dating though?
Like sometimes you walk through a crosswalk with people other times. You take longer walks. That's true. And then you get in the car and you actually go somewhere together.
Oh, you asked when you see that. Do you think did I date her? Like does that make you wonder for a second? No, Monica, that could happen with like, have you hooked up with this person?
But have I dated Tara Lipinski? No, I would definitely. That you know if you dated Tara Lipinski or not for any period of time. Probably a more accurate question is, did you even realize you were in a crosswalk with Tara Lipinski, which I did not.
And then another one is I only Sky. I happen to be seated next to her at some charity poker event dozen years ago. And again, that's we've dated. Do you have any of those?
No, no. I mean, I've had little bits of dating here and there, but I've been such a serial monogamous. Yeah, totally true. It's like three year relationship, seven year relationship, three year relationship.
Marriage literally the term serial monogamous. Yeah. Yeah. I just I like being in a relationship.
Yeah, I have dated before, but I feel weird about dating. Yeah, it's very, very uncomfortable. It feels strange to go out with one person one night and then go out with someone else. A different night.
It just feels weird. Yeah. And I have done it. I'm not saying I haven't done it when I was younger.
I was with a girlfriend nine years. We had an over-relationship. So I did have sex with people. I'm not denying that, but I never went on a date.
And I basically had gone on a date my whole life until she and I broke up so there was like a year window between her and Kristen where I did date people. Yeah. And I felt like a serial killer going out with one gay all one night and having a great time. And then you go out with another girl like four days later and have an early great time.
Or someone, if someone, well now, I mean, I didn't really date much when there was texting because it's right, right, right. Right, right. But if someone texts you while you're on a date with someone, like that just feels weird. I mean, if it's part of the agreement and everyone understands this is not, you know, like, yeah, this is allowed.
It still feels kind of strange. But even when that's communicated and that's the understanding, it's still bullshit. It doesn't feel right. And I just like getting to the stage where you're in your jammies with someone and you're watching, you know, the movie, Parenthood for the hundred and fifty times.
Yeah. I didn't just, I wasn't actually at all. But I do watch that movie once a year. I do watch that movie once a year though.
You know, I'm in the TV show. I do know you're in the TV show. Yes. I do you're in the TV show.
Oh, and that makes sense because one of the other facts I read about you is that you really like Steve Mark. I do like Steve. Yeah. And so he is the star of the whole.
And Mary Steem Virgin was at the, I go the Crick's Choice Awards the other night and I wanted to walk up to her and just say, Hey, I watch Parenthood once a year. And then I realized like, what's she going to say to that? Like, I never. She actually would love it because, you know, my wife's on a show with Ted.
Yep. And so we've hung out with them a bunch of times and probably the nicest, coolest woman in the biz. Did your wife have to do the thing? We all did something for, it was like an NBC promo.
Like earlier this week? Yeah. And I had heard, oh, and Kristen shot one. I'm sure she did because I think everyone because I was hearing stories about Ted Danson.
Danson. I have a very hard time with his last name. Do you? Like Ted Danson?
Like D-A-N-C-I-N? Yeah. There was a band called Ted Danson. Or who was the boss?
Tony Danson. Yes. Danson, those are amazing. And then Danzig.
I mean, can these guys get together already? Yeah. What? Well, then Danzig.
Yeah. Oh, my God. When I get my feathers ruffled that I have an interaction with somebody in the real world that is very awkward, right? I have to remind myself of how many times I was awkward with famous people.
Mm-hmm. One of them being Glen Danzig who I got on an airplane with at one point and I was behind him and he had like three buddies with him. And Glen Danzig, have you ever seen him in real life? Yeah.
I mean, I really take your breath away. Right. Because as a kid, I grew up, you know, he was a monster. He was like, scary as hell and he's a bit like shit.
Doesn't he be wrestled in alligator in one video? Yeah, yeah. So I was picturing, you know, humongous fella and he's very, very short. So I said to his buddy, well, Glen Danzig's a, he's short.
He goes, yeah, and you're fucking tall. Who gives a shit, motherfucker? Yeah. Oh, God.
This is the thing that Glen's really sensitive about and I just went straight at it. I did his bull's eye. Yeah. Usually, and this is just a good rule of thumb for people.
I know you're good. I know you're good. But he's a lot of us. And it's 10 times.
He's five times. And he was great. He was. I did a movie that he was in baby Mama and we had a lot of time hanging out on set.
And I found him to be more serious of a guy than I would have thought and I'm not saying that in a negative way. He's a pretty smart, serious individual. He's a pretty straight arrow and he's also shy. I like, if you read if you read on board standing up which is, if you were even kind of a Steve Martin Fannner, a fan of comedy, standard whatever, you have to read or actually even better.
Listen to the audio version because he reads it. Oh that's right. So when he kind of reads a lot of his old bits he's doing a lot of the bits again. Oh, that's cool.
Yeah. huge loud and bright and shiny doesn't necessarily get in here that way. Now, you were born in Kentucky. This is true.
Yeah. That part from the internet is true. OK. And then you moved to Memphis, Tennessee.
There was a little bit of shuffling in between Kentucky and Tennessee, but ultimately I ended up in Memphis. Do you eat at Blue Play? Is that my favorite one? Is that the name of it?
Beautiful barbecue place. It smokes beautiful smoke sausage in there. I don't remember. The sign inside says put some South in your mouth.
Oh, that's that's good. Yeah, that's fun. It might have come down this year. That maybe.
I don't think it's coming down. It's pretty happy. It rhymes. But yeah, so we kind of shift it went to Florida a little bit.
But ultimately I was raised in Memphis. And so when people ask me where I'm from, I just say Memphis, because it's well, that's cool. Too complicated to explain because I say they go where you from. I go a lot of places they go or me, Brad.
And I go, no, my dad was a professional bowler. That's what I say that. Then it's like 50 other questions. And by the way, me bringing out Memphis is really only a vehicle to me.
For me to say your father was a professional bowler. My father was a fall of fame bowler. He's in the Hall of Fame. He's one of the greatest bowlers and literally one of the greatest in the history of the sport.
You're kidding me. And are you a good bowler? Yes, you are. It's genetic.
Well, I could bowler from the time I could walk. And my mother's father also had a couple bowling centers, which I'm pretty sure is how my parents met. But your mom's dad owned the bowling alley. And then they met there.
This is the problem if you're a dad of daughters. It's like a Romeo and Juliet. It's a really, really, really, it's supposed to be together. Like their family's trying to keep apart, but this was all bowling.
Oh, everyone was happy. But what I'm saying, it might be a little bit of a cautionary tale, is if you start a business and you have daughters, you have to think about the fact, if you know what kind of business are you starting, your daughters are going to interact with all these folks. These are your daughters are going to interact with bowlers. So your daughter is likely going to end up with a bowler, which in fact happened.
That happened. Yeah. What kind of livelihood can a professional bowler pull down in the 80s? Well, this was in the 60s.
He retired at about 34. So he was like 17 to 34. He was on the pro-woe's tour. Uh-huh.
And in 17. 17, yeah. And so... Was he getting a lot of ass on that tour?
Were there a lot of female bowler fans? Well, yeah. I mean, yes, because at the time, bowling was actually a very premier sport. It was televised, right?
Like, it was a very cool thing to do. And then in the 70s, it started the slide of it. And so what's interesting about the financial gains of bowling is that the money in bowling has weirdly not gone up at all from the time that my dad was on the tour. That doesn't shock me.
So it's actually even like the greatest bowlers on tour right now, if I understand correctly, are clearing about like 300 grand. And you can make that a one fucking golf match. Yes. Yeah, by not even placing them.
Yeah, exactly. Fun thing about this podcast is that at the end of all this, Monica will go and check everything we've said and then she'll give the real data. So we fact check at the end of our podcast. Interesting.
So people, if they stay tuned, they'll find out exactly what a professional bowler currently makes. I think the top bowlers make in the 250 to 300 range. And that's like, those are the top guys. Those are the Michael Jordan's of both.
Those are not all. There's not a lot of money in it, unfortunately. But isn't it? It's all about the endorsement game, I would imagine.
But even so, a lot of the money from bowling before, if you own a bowling center, which my dad did until he died, was Lee bowling. You know, like, leads were huge. And then at a certain point, it started shifting. And it became like cosmic bowling.
And like leagues dropped off. But then people would come and go to a bowling center like a bar, like a club. And the lights would be flashy. I hate all that shit because I need to focus.
Right. But yeah, so that's interesting. Fashion. Yeah, analog.
I need, I don't mind it on my store. Gazz lantern. I don't like, yeah, I can gas lanterns. I need steam punk.
I need bowling spats. Yeah, wooden bowling ball. Did you ever see racing with the moon, that great movie with Sean Penn and Nicholas Cage? Is that the bicycle movie?
No. No, they're about to go to World War II and Sean Penn gets his girlfriend pregnant. Or rather, maybe Nicholas Cage gets his. It doesn't matter.
They work at a bowling alley. And they work at one where they had to reset the pins. Oh, yeah. Those are the old days.
The nostalgia for that. Yeah, those are the old days. But it's, but it's, but it's, but I love bowling. I love being in it.
Like, if I walk into a bowling center that sounds and you call it a bowling center, not a bowling alley. Why is it uncouth to say bowling alley? So what's interesting is that if, like, it's not interesting to anyone but me. You've said bowling center more times than the last five minutes and I've heard my whole life.
Well, now you will. I probably will. But it's just like in any profession how if you understand what the vernacular is, every word, the nuance of every word means something slightly different. A bowling alley is a very CD place.
I got you. A bowling alley is like, it's sort of like the difference between going to a pool hall and a billiard club. So if you go to a bowling alley, it's pretty, that means pretty CD. Yes.
If you go to a bowling center, that's a family place. So when my dad and my grandfather had bowling centers, it's like these were safe places where you could take your family. Yes. And that is to know bowling alley, which is where you would you likely to get shot.
What was there thinking? I was just telling this to somebody this weekend that I grew up in kind of rural Michigan. Yeah. The bowling alley in town was this amazing opportunity to see adults acting like fucking animals.
But because there were arcade games there and they sold food, everyone was welcome. There wasn't like an agent, but always in playing view, there was a bar where people were getting shit faced and fighting every couple hours or slow dancing. So a lot of these songs, these 80s sappy love songs, when I hear them, I immediately go back to watching like really hammered adults, slow dancing at 3 PM. No, be a break them and to my eye.
Wait, sorry. I have a really quick question. Oh, that was a good one. Oh, thank you.
I'm going to say wait till she facts you. You'll find that was twisted. That is 100% definitely. What I know.
What is a good score for a professional bowler? Like someone who's really good. What does that mean? I'll take this.
I'll take this. Every is it 220? If you're balling 220, you're a stud, right? Not on the tour anymore.
Oh, really? So I wrote an article when I used to write for wire, I wrote an article and wired based on something my dad used to say, which is, ah, bowling's gotten too easy because the technology has made all the scores higher. And so I did a bunch of research, talk to some companies and found out that he was actually accurate. My father was like, my dad had like the highest average on the tour in the 60s for a couple of years at like 212.
And in the 60s, that was really high. Yeah. But you have to look at the material. This is where everyone's fucking falling asleep.
Bowling balls are made out of rubber. The lanes were made out of wood. The pins were made out of wood. Now, if you go to a bowling center, the lane is actually not wood.
The lane is actually a composite. It's composite material with wood grain laser printed on it. Yeah. And the reason that that's relevant is because wood deteriorates and it has to be resurfaced.
It has to be grouped. And then the bowling ball material now has a cover stock. They have glass particles in them. It's called the reactive resin.
And the glass particles in them. When the ball starts spinning, it creates friction. For lack of a better way, the pores on the ball open up a bit. So the glass particles then grab the lane and then kind of slingshot into the pocket and explode the pins.
And so where the game used to be about accuracy and making spares now, it's just making strikes right. So all the best bowlers now average like 240, 250. Oh, really? But in my dad's day, it was like 212.
How many career 300s did he get? He had 66. Oh my God. He hit the guitar for a while.
Oh, really? He doesn't anymore. But he did. I hope you find an old edition of the Guinness World Record and keep it on a bookshelf.
So I wonder if there was a mechanism or a platform by which I could acquire something as useless as a Guinness World Record from 1970. Yeah, you could easily track that down. I feel like I could be very savvy on the internet. Be tuned for armchair.
If you dare. So your dad on a bowling center and a bowling cathedral in Memphis and then in Florida? No, that was my grandfather's. Okay.
And then you eventually, and this is to me where things get dodgy if I'm you move from Memphis. I was having that crisis. I was having that crisis here. Do not.
You moved to Colorado in high school. My mom remarried. My parents of course. My mom remarried.
The guy she married was a wonderful guy. We moved to Denver, Colorado for a few years. How did you get the wonderful stepdad? That's kind of that breaks the mold.
I cannot tell you how lucky I feel. Both my dad and my stepdad both died. But he was a good guy. My stepdad, Jim.
My stepdad, Jim, Jim Hill's great guy. And was he I want to ask a silly question. He was just under their memory now that I said they're both dead. My father has passed to.
Okay. You're not so cool. My dad. That's right.
Jim was a stepdad, Jim was a stepdad. He wasn't intimidated by your father's prowess as a bowler. What's interesting is that Jim was also a professional bowler. Oh, wait.
Jim was also but he was a lefty. Oh. And but he he gave up bowling shortly after he and my mom started dating. But he was like a scratch golfer.
And he was just a crazy good athlete. But also just he was a lovely guy because he knew how to be a dad. But he was very respectful that he knew he was not my biological father. But but he also treated me like a son but not in a way that was like you fucking listen.
Yeah. Good guy, very supportive and very, he was just a lovely guy. Well, you know, I got a whole new respect for the business of step-fothering when in that year I wasn't in between Kristen and the nine year girlfriend. I dated a woman with a son.
What happens, what is very hard about it is I fell in love with this little boy. And now, because I love this little boy, I want him to turn out well. You see something that they're doing that you think's gonna result in them being a shithead. You feel compelled to correct the behavior and it's just a big no-no.
You can't really do that as the non-biological father. It's also kind of strange, I mean, and I'm not a parent, so I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, but knowing when someone is doing something that is not gonna have a good result, you want to tell them and go, this is gonna get fucked up if you do it this way, but also they don't learn that way. And then if you fuck it up because you told them you made them aware of it, it's almost like the matrix thing. Like, would you have broken the vase if I hadn't told you about it?
Right. You damaged the experiment by observing the experiment. I just feel like you and I have had about 10 conversations at this point, and I feel like you brought up the matrix and almost all of them. Do all roads lead back to the matrix?
Did I? Or is that just what your program is exactly? When we get pulled out of this, you make me think of the matrix. We did, because I look like Neo so much.
Yeah, because we talked about this notion that people have that we're living in a simulation. In my point, which I don't think you agreed with was, only people with awesome lives think we're in a simulation. Like, of course, Elon Musk is a big proponent of this theory. I've heard him talk about it a bunch.
And I think, yeah, for Elon Musk, it must feel like he's in a computer-generated world because there's no way he's that successful and has invented this many things. But I don't think there's a coal miner right now digging in the coal going, this is a fucking simulation, isn't it? I'm just in a coal mining situation. I just happen to be the unlucky guy who got stuck in the coal mining situation.
Unless he loves being a coal miner. That's what I was about to say. I think that's a privilege. I think that's patronizing and placating.
And what else to pretend that there's a coal miner who fucking loves coal mining. I think there's people who- I think it's patronizing to say that there's no way his life is good. I didn't say his life wasn't good. I said the job sucks.
I've had those fucking jobs. I was a roofer at your Tesla corner. They weren't good fun jobs. Can they just call him out for saying that's a very narcissistic point of view that just because he doesn't like it means that no one else could like it?
Yes, please call him out. Oh, they call you out. They call that naive realism and apology. You can't comprehend someone in Africa doesn't want a microwave.
Coal mining versus owning Tesla is probably- I think we can- we don't have to pussyfoot around that. It's probably better to own Tesla than fucking work in a coal mine and get black lung. Also, is it- No, I'm getting angry. Then there's sort of the subtle difference between working in a coal mine and mining that type of fuel and then an electric car.
It's kind of a deep- Yeah, it's got an allegorical. So there's so much more. I don't know if like if we unplug from the Matrix and Elon Musk is a guy in a mail room who's getting pissed away by a bad boss. And then he jacks back into the Matrix and he's like, I am the smartest man in the world.
I've privatized space travel. I go to space. I'm making, let's make tubes underground. So you move to Colorado.
Yes, sir. Right, and that's for high school. No, I changed school districts in high school and I found that very hard. I liked it.
I did. I did because my- You're a fan of your stepdad rule. You loved changing a whole new high school. I know.
I know. Bowling. You think coal mining's an awesome job. I'm like the end.
I do too. I think we moved a handful of times when I was growing up. And so, you know, the thing would happen with me where I was almost popular for being unpopular in the sense that, you know, I wasn't chess club. I did play D&D.
And so in those days at a pre-internet era, you really only could relate to like maybe three or four other people in your entire town. And then that was it. I did not have the joint beauty of digital communities to- Yeah, you can find tribe. Connect with other people and support you.
Yeah. So what would happen is we would move and every time I would become, I don't know if it's gonna make sense to you, but I would become Capital City Millhouse for like a minute where I would be like, oh, I'd be like, like people didn't think I was a dipshit. And then I would just slide back into my- Like I could not maintain the facade and all the obsessions, the obsessions with video games and sci-fi and stand up comedy. Like things that most other kids at that time were not into.
And I know it sounds strange to say that, but that's true. Most other kids were not into the stuff that I was into. And so it always gave me a chance to start over. Yeah.
I was gonna fuck it up. Right. I had a very, very steep decline. I was cool in junior high and then I switched schools and started ninth grade with a short long, you know.
Why can you not be cool with a name like Dax? Well, look, when you're cool, it works. And when you have a really bad short long and bad skin and you've grown three inches and lost 10 pounds and your name Dax, now it's all backfires. Sure.
Mine was like, it went from having a blast in school to being miserable. Yeah. Oh, and in the worst, like during puberty too, like the worst time to not have a good time. I was six, three and 149 pounds, acne, and just the worst haircut you've ever seen.
But I think, and I look back on those days, on those really awkward times where I felt like, it sucks to be socially ostracized. I don't enjoy not liking other kids because I think they're into dumb things. And then when I look back on that, I think, well, that was so significant because if I had been popular in grade school, then I would have peaked because it wouldn't have occurred to me to be introspective anyway, or really drive me to try to excel. You would have ran the risk of being content.
Like life would have been good. You would have had a bunch of friends and probably want to stay in your town. And then at a certain point, you know, life doesn't get so easy and you don't have as many of the coping skills because things came very easily to you when you were young. Yeah.
And I mean, I'm oversimplifying, everyone has a fucking struggle. But ultimately, and then at 25 or 30, you're like, what the fuck? And you don't know, you know. No, yeah, I mean, in one of the Malcolm Gladwell books, it talks about.
Which one? I can't even keep track. I've read them all. But there's a chapter on dyslexia.
And for decades, it was known that if you were dyslexic, you had twice as likely to go to prison. But then they've later found out that you're also twice as likely to be a CEO of a company. So it's one of those things that- Sounds like it was blank. destroys you or makes you.
Yeah. So I think that's why I kind of tell people, the things that you think are flaws actually make you unique. And those are actually weirdly your strengths. Yeah.
The things that you, when you look in the mirror and you see some weird version or something or you obsess on one thing, number one, most people don't also see that thing because they're obsessing about their own things. And number two, it's probably just sort of a weird, conformist, evolutionary piece of biology in your brain that makes you think like, I need to be this to be accepted. But then hopefully you start to realize like, no, no, no, that thing makes me unique. And that is the thing that makes me, that provides the strength that I actually need.
Yeah. But to your point about the biology, I do think people vastly underestimate the fact that we are the ultimate pack animals. Like we think of dogs. We know dogs are pack animals.
And they go, because they're pack animals, we can train them this way. Oh, them. Right? Good point.
Nice try, dogs. Yeah. Mine already breaks down completely. I don't remember we own them.
But we're even more social than them. You know what I'm saying? So you can do these things with a dog and go, oh, well, the dog needs to know right away. Is it alpha, beta, gamma?
This is how you're going to train this dog. It has so much hard wiring to be social, to live in a pack. Right? We have even more hard wiring for that.
So our obsession with a pack, but I think a dog also has a drive to be in a social hierarchy. As do we though, you look at every primate, which we are a primate, and they have the most clearly defined strata of hierarchy. Sure. And we too have that.
And we have this in success and all these things. They're just, they're fucking carry over bad genetics that helps us for years. Yes, well, because ultimately, I mean, if you really think about that part of a human's biological directive is to preserve your genes, and I'm not saying that's all people are supposed to do, or meant to do, but I'm just saying, if there's biological programming somewhere in our linear system that says, you know, I have genes, I need to make sure, and in order to do that, I need to be accepted by a group. In order to be accepted by a group, I have to have certain skills or I have to do things so that I can show what I think is part of the reason why those real paths are so attractive.
And narcissists can be so attractive because, well, maybe not narcissists, but sociopaths, because when someone doesn't need you, you are instantly attracted to them because I think on a biological level, you go, oh my God, they don't need anything. They're not injured. They don't need my approval. Right.
And that sells me, oh, they're above me. Yes. Because I'm only seeking the approval of people that are above me. And when I walk into 7-Eleven and there's the guy with the parrot on his shoulder, I'm not praying that he tells me he likes how I park.
Hope he doesn't meet the lizard guy. But if Michael Schumacher is walking out of 7-Eleven, I'm like, I hope he notices how well I park. What if he had a parrot? Would you be excited about that?
Michael Schumacher, yeah, he could get away with having a parrot. But a kick that I've been complaining a lot lately is just about how I think social media and the internet upends all of that. And as much as I love it, I mean, I really do think that I'm crossing my fingers that it all nets positively, but just in the way that it encourages people to communicate is very toxic. I'm concerned that a lot of those biological mechanisms are being applied to a paradigm that prays on all of the weaknesses of our evolution.
Yes, all of our wiring is vestigial to that new high-tech paradigm. Yes. In my big concern with it all is this. So, okay, you used to live in a group with 200 other humans, right?
And you lived with all the guys and the women all lived together. That's how we lived for 150,000 years. And you were gonna be the best at something. You were gonna make the best spears.
You were gonna, something you would stand out for and that would give you self-esteem. And now you're in a group of literally four billion people if you're on Facebook. So, the odds of you being the best at anything. It's impossible.
Also, you're dating. And if you live with 200 people, you can pretty much guess who's the best gal you can get. This is exactly, and I'm sure we talked about this in the early podcast. This is exactly why I'm so fascinated by the Dunning Kruger experiments, which basically, are you accusing me of suffering from that?
No, no, no, no, no, no. That I know the least about the topic. I'm speaking about it. That's exactly right.
That idea of people needing to be the best at something. And so, having people speak as experts when they don't know something is not just because they're being dicks. It's a biological, and also the idea that people who are ignorant about something, not stupid, but ignorant of actual facts. They're too ignorant to know that they are ignorant about something.
So, they need to believe that they are experts in order to fold into culture and society. And so, when people get all superior online, a large percentage of them genuinely don't know exactly what they're talking about, they have pieced a story together that they need to believe in order to allow themselves to function. Yes. What's that good quote you told me about smart people and dumb people?
Oh, there's the, I've dealt it. Yes, that's exactly what it is. It's a Bukowski quote, and I can't remember it exactly, but it goes something like the big tragedy of life for humans is that the dumbest people speak the most and the smartest people speak the least. Something, I'm fucking it up.
He wrote it up. He had discovered the dumb figure. Yeah, before. And of course, I'm sure we sound like assholes even talking about it, so maybe we're the dumbest people of all.
But I do think that even recognizing that has been really interesting because it makes me more hesitant when I say things, now I've become an over-qualifier. I go, I don't, you know, like maybe this isn't right or in my opinion. Or, but how many arguments I've got with people online where they say something like, well, you know that's your opinion, but this idea that we're in opinion is fact era. It's like, well, I feel this, so if you don't feel this, then you're fucking stupid because I'm right and you're wrong.
Well, did you research that? I mean, it doesn't matter. I know I'm right. Yes.
Well, I'm sure this happened to you. Like I've been proven wrong dozens of times online. I've like tweeted something and then someone posted me an article or whatever. And I believe that.
And then that feeling of having to acknowledge I was wrong and correct is so painful. Doesn't bother me. I like it because I feel like I learned something. See, people really misunderstand the difference between constructive criticism and just fucking toxic insults.
There's a difference between, oh, hey, I know you said this thing, but here's something that might enlighten right. Oh my God, that's great. I'm so sorry. I'm just talking to my ass.
Thank you for teaching me something. Versus, hey, you fucking idiot. What circle of Satan's anus did you crawl out of? And then you go, that's really mean to go, oh, I guess you're not open to criticism.
Like, no, I was insulting. No, I'm pretty sure nine out of 10 people would have found that insulting. I feel like my experiences have not been that soft touch you just described. I feel like most of the times I've been proven wrong, there was a couple of fuck use in there.
So it's been hard for me. It's largely why I always try to attack with kindness or let someone know, because all the way I think everyone wants to be heard. Everyone wants to be heard because we all want to feel significant and connected. Even if someone's shitty to you, if you say like, hey, you know, I understand what your point is.
I'm listening, I hear you. I don't necessarily agree. And also, you know, that was a little hurt. You're great at that.