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I'm your host, Carla Knappi. I just finished talking with Cosmo Bruno about her brand new book that just came out with real publishers between the lines, Young Land's Poetry through Translation, and that was released in 2012. Now this is a book that is approachable and useful and interesting, even if you don't work on China or Chinese poetry or contemporary poetry at all. On one level, the book is trying to, and I think quite successfully, accomplishes this, trying to provide a way of thinking about and practicing translation as reading and reading as translation, in a way that's quite different from the methodology that some of us may typically think of when we think about translation.
I have it text in a foreign language. I have some dictionaries. I'm going to use one to try to render the other in another language. And there you have it.
Her methodology is very different in that she's, rather than creating this relationship between the dictionary and the foreign language poem, she's creating a space by juxtaposing multiple translations of a poem with the poem itself and seeing what reading across these different renderings of the poem can tell us about the poem itself. And so it's really not just about translation as much as it is about changing the way we think about the relationship between reading and translation. Okay, so there's this methodological component of the book that's very important. In addition to that, it also serves as an analysis of an exploration of an introduction to the work of a very important Chinese poet, Yung-Yun.
Yung-Yun's Poetry has gotten many awards. One of the recent awards that it was given was the No-Nino Prize, which I particularly like because that's a Grappa Company, so, and I'm a particular fan of Grappa. So, yay, Grappa Industry for recognizing the importance of contemporary Chinese poetry. Two loves brought together in the same place, but I digress.
Yung-Yun's Poetry. Very interesting, very important, and Bruno's book not only gives us this really interesting way of thinking about translation, but also gives us in a series of material in the appendix in many of the chapters, gives us a way into Yung-Yun's Poetry, and not just as a written text, but also as a kind of a performance, as something that we can appreciate visually and orally, etc. So it's a really interesting book. It was really interesting to talk with Kostuma about it, and I hope you enjoy.
Hello, Cosima. Hi, Carla. How are you? Great.
Thank you so much for being with us today, and for listeners, where we are right now is certainly on Skype, but we're here at New Books and East Asian Studies to talk with Kostuma Bruno about her new book, her really innovative and, I think, very engaging new book between the lines, Yung-Yun's Poetry through Translation. Welcome to New Books and East Asian Studies, and thank you so much for making the time to talk with us today. Thank you. So, this is a book for listeners.
That's just at least a couple of different things at the same time. It's both a study that is a kind of literary criticism of the work of a poet, and we'll get to who that poet is and what makes his work so interesting in a moment, but it's also a contribution and a kind of theoretical and practical intervention into translation studies. So this is a book that's of interest, both to readers who are just interested in modern and contemporary poetry, interested in Chinese literature, but it's also of interest to readers and to listeners right now, I hope, who are interested more broadly in reading and in translation and in the relationship between the two. So, as we, or before we get into the actual content of the book itself and work our way through, Kostuma, could you start us off by saying a little bit about yourself, what brought you into this field and what's your particular background that brought you to the field of poetry and poetry translation in China?
Sure. I first studied Chinese language and literature at Kofoskery at University of Venice. My choice, of course, is focus on modern Chinese literature and even my BA dissertation was on the translation and critical analysis of two contemporary short stories, but I think that I should probably place the beginning of my interest into this field a little bit later towards the end of the 1990s. At that time, I was living in Milan and working as an interpreter and translator from Chinese into Italian and one day I was introduced to Janice Galia, really an extraordinary intellectual, an Italianist who is also the editor of the beautiful journal, Informal di Barrolet.
So, he told me that he wanted to dedicate an issue of this journal to contemporary writing from China and so he quite casually proposed me to contribute with translation of contemporary Chinese poems of my choice. I straight away, I gladly accepted without hesitation because I liked this journal with its beautiful title and I liked literature and so I started collaborating on this issue that was edited by Claudia Vozana and Alessandro Russo. So, in order to make a selection, I first researched, read a lot of poems in Chinese, then I started to select according to my taste, but also I tried to give to the Italian readership a sample of the rich variety of styles that I could find in contemporary Chinese poetry. So, it was a very exciting time for me and from time to time I was meeting up with the other translators and who were collaborating to this project and we were discussing freely, but very passionately, I would say, about poetry, translation, contemporary Chinese literature, politics and so forth.
So, when I started to translate, each of these poems sort of exposed me to a complex experience. So, it was like each poem became tridentional. So, even with visual artists, I knew, for example, we were thinking to combine some of these translation with some more visual adaptation of the poems and the discussions were very exciting. So, I had to do some ideas kept accumulating and there was so much work involved, no money at all, but a lot of fun.
And I kept translating, drafting and re-drafting until the deadline arrived and I had to submit my work for this publication. And so, I selected my selection, included poems by Sichuan, Oyan Zhangho, Yu Jian and Chuyo Yuan. I was almost addicted to poetry translation, but at some point I felt that I needed to think about it and I needed to measure translation. So, I wanted to experiment translation, yes, but as a phenomenon, but at the same time I wanted to study it, to theorize it about it and about this process, about the relationship between original translation, about the whole experience really.
And this brought me to start a PhD at the School of Oriental and African Studies University of London and eventually to write this book, which is a revised version of my dissertation. Now, the book itself, and I'm assuming also that this was true of the dissertation, focuses on the work of a particular poet. This is a poem from Yang Lian. So, can you talk a little bit before we kind of move to the issue of the dissertation?
Can you introduce Yang Lian for our listeners? Who is he? What brought you to work on and be interested in his work in particular? Can you say a little bit about him and how his work became central for your own?
Sure. Yang Yang is a very famous poet who has been awarded many prizes and he was born in Switzerland in 1955, while his parents were there as diplomats. But today they returned to China the same year of Yang Yang's birth. As many other intellectuals from his generation, Yang and two was sent down to the countryside during the Cultural Revolution.
And when he returned to Beijing in the second half of the 1970s, he contributed with the freshly established literary magazine, Jin Tian, which was funded by Beethou and Amon Khur. So, in 1988 Yang Lian went to Australia and New Zealand to participate to cultural events. And as you know, soon after there was in 1989 massacre of June 4th, because he is proud support for the protesters in Tiananmen, he began what he calls a floating life as a dissident. So, at the same time also, his point, two of his point collections were banned and destroyed.
He currently lives in London, although I believe that this very moment might be in Germany as a point in residence, but he has published widely both poetry collection and essays. And his poetry is usually considered obscure and difficult to read and to understand, because it's highly singular in his choice of imagery and world combinations. And also in the way those are processed in his poetry, it's quite difficult to enter really. So, I choose him for two very simple reasons.
The first one is that simply because there were at least two translations available on some of his points. Today, many more translations of his work have become available, but when I started this research, they were more than any other Chinese poet, but still not a huge amount. So, this was my main reason, but also a second reason was that if the methodology that I tried to elaborate in this book could help me understand or understand, or enter a Yangyan's difficult poetry, then I could probably use this methodology on pretty much any other press work. So, yeah, these are the reasons that brought me to focus on Yangyan's poetry.
And is there, before we move on from this, is there anything about his poetry that particularly inspires you? Or is there anything about his poetry just as a poem out of the context of what you're doing in this book in terms of translation studies that you particularly like? So, was this your choice of Yangyan specifically about the function of his work in the body of translations that existed being suitable for what you wanted to do in terms of translation, or were you just inspired by his poetry itself? Well, yeah, I admit that I like his poetry.
I feel fascinated by his poetry, but it was not the reason why I choose Yangyan's poetry. As I said, it was more practical reason because there were enough translation to work on, and also for the very reason that he was considered a difficult poet. So, yeah, I do love Yangyan's poetry, also thanks to the work that I did in this book, but I did not choose him because of my preference, I mean, yeah, poetic preference if you like. But I think that's actually really important and interesting to keep in mind, especially as I ask you about the transformation from dissertation to the book, and that is, I think that for many of us, when we're working on our dissertations, it's important to keep in mind the kinds of practical considerations that go into choosing a topic based on what we want to explore methodologically.
And this is a book that I will get to in the next few minutes. It's a book that is not just about Yangyan, as we mentioned. It's very much about translation and reading in their relationship more broadly. So, can you talk a little bit before we get to these larger issues about that move?
How was the process of transforming this from dissertation work to a book manuscript for you? Were there any particular challenges or any surprises along the way? Can you talk about that process? Well, the process of revision was very much a collaboration, which as you may understand, with all the agents that are involved in the publication.
So first the publishers were contacted and the serious editors and then the peer reviewers and then the copy editors are already in the search and so forth. And so, structurally, the book is not very dissimilar from my thesis. If anything, it is just more compact, more cohesive. So I only excluded a chapter where I tested the same methodology on other two poets' works, and I also shortened the analysis, given in the appendix, considerably, and I rewrote the introduction and the conclusion.
So I think these changes made the book much more compact, less tedious, if you like, and more focused. The main aim on my site was to elaborate my theoretical propositions on poetry translation and its possibilities in the study of poetry and provide the methodology and present a case study. And these, I think, I could do only if I excluded a lot of the data, and I had to reduce it from the PhD dissertation. Now, the book, so that's very helpful to know.
So now let's get into the book itself. The book, among other things that it does, addresses a major question and it addresses it in an innovative way. Namely, how should we think about the relationship between a poem and its translation, between reading and translation, between reading and writing and translation? In order to elaborate that relationship or help us explore that relationship and perhaps understand it in a new way, you introduce for us the notion of what you call a chiasmus cross as a methodological tool, and this is one of the major methodological contributions of the book.
So can you explain for us what is a chiasmus cross and how does that help us understand translation here, as you are proposing for us? Sure. When I started reading on poetry translation, my predominant feeling was of disagreement. So after century, after the establishment of translation studies had disciplined, the most common attitude towards translation I could find a literary translation, and especially poetry translation was and perhaps still is a negative one or self-defeating, depressing, and in my view, really not fully reflecting what the experience of translating is.
So although I'm not a naturally confident person, I felt that considering translation as a secondary mood to literary creation and to focus on the so-called losses in translation was not making justice to what I experienced being the process of translating. So I sided with all those thinkers, many of them poet translators who recognize in translation a form of critique on the original, a human analytical operation which can reveal some aspects of the source text. So I'm thinking of Antoine Berman and Cliff Scott and Walter Benjamin and Ezra Pound and Harold De Campos and Jean-Bos Béilier and Dadaers. All these people seem to be attracted by the powers of translation and as often beautifully elaborated on these.
So I start with a definition of literary text and then I attempt to define what the relationship between a text and its original ease. So this I think is a necessary preliminary step when we want to re-translations. So usually this relationship is described as having a unidirectional movement from the source text to the target text. But if we agree together with most recent theories or semiotics or all those reader-oriented theories such as formalism, poststructuralism, and deconstructionist, if we agree with these theories that the text is not a fixed entity but something that needs to be interpreted in order to function as a literary text, then we can also agree that translation being similar to reading is also partially responsible of making the text.
So among the numerous graphical representations of the relationship between a text and this translation that we can find in translation studies, however I could not find one that expressed such a mutual relationship. Therefore I borrowed from a rhetoric, the formula of the chasmus, a formula that is expressed as a sense to b, as b1, sense to a1. The crisscross arrangement of the chasmus is a word derived from Greek that means mark with let x. The crisscross arrangement and the inversion of the terms in the second dance of the equation, I think make explicit the mutuality of the relationship between source and target text.
So we have a sense to b which means that a source text tends to its translation as b1, sense to a1 that is as a particular translation which is b1 or b2 or bn, that is the modified source text. So it may sound complicated perhaps but it is actually quite simple if looked at it as a formula with its own graph. Now this is the notion of the chasmus cross which is one of the many methodological innovations in this book. We'll see also as a safer listeners a little bit later on in our conversation.
I think you don't just present this in the book and leave it at the level of theory and this is one of the really wonderful things about the book. This is very much at least from the perspective that I had as a reader. This is very much about taking what can tend in translation studies to be two different fields of work, right? Translation theory and practical translation and bringing them together in really productive ways.
And so we'll see in a little bit how this notion of the chasmus cross moves not just from or it moves from the realm of this very interesting methodological innovation to a very practical tool that actually helps us read poetry in a new way. So chasmus cross is one of the innovations. Another one that you present with us with here is something that you call triangular comparative analysis. This is really, really interesting and this is actually changed since reading your book the way I think about what I'm doing when I change this.
So I'm really interested in this and I'd love it if you could talk a little bit about this concept for our listeners. What is triangular comparative analysis and how does it work for us? The elaboration of a triangular comparative analysis responds very much to the need of finding a way to measure the experience of translating. So it is like one week's experience, the phenomenon of a leaf falling down from a tree, which we may find beautiful in itself as a phenomenon.
But that we also may want to measure the leaf speed, the intensity of its color, the contrasting force of the wind, the different behavior determined by its size, or so and so on. So I wanted to find a way to measure translation as I enjoyed writing and reading it. So there are many useful models elaborated in what are now known as descriptive translation studies. But these are usually models that directly compare target text and source text.
Because we are dealing with two languages and two cultures and for some theories also, these two universes are not comparable. Those methodologies that are based on a direct comparison between pairs of source and target text are actually considered problematic by all those colors who believe in, for example, in linguistic relativity. Not at least because in order to compare two different languages, all those methods require a hypothetical ideal third text, which is meant to function as a meta language against which we can compare source and target text. So drawing from the important work done in descriptive translation studies, I revised some of the most useful methodologies and I tried to elaborate a message that does not approach translation in a dichotomy's way.
But instead works in triangulation with two translations and the source text. So in other words, the triangular comparative analysis I propose and use in this book does not rely on a direct comparison between the source text and the target text, but on a comparison between different English translation of the source text. So in this way, you can see that I can engage on an analysis and description of translation that is on one single linguistic level, that one of the target language. So I don't have the theoretical and practical problem of using any meta language and I don't have the theoretical problem of comparing essentially two things that are not comparable.
Great. Now there are other elements of your methodology that are important here. What we'll do is rather than asking you to explain them now, why don't we move directly into the case study or the case studies that you chose to focus on in order to elaborate and illustrate these ideas and in doing so also to give us a really interesting reading of the work of a particular poet. And this is the poet, Young Yang.
And I imagine that in the course of our discussing his work, other elements of your methodology that are important will come up in the course of our conversation. Okay, so let's talk about young young young young. You've already introduced him for us and you use these methodological innovations in the way we think about the methodology and the theory of translation to the very practical work of reading young lands poetry. And the book takes us through examples that illustrate this methodology and what we can gather from that are what we mean from it.
So let's move to this. Your analysis in the book takes us through examples of a first short selections from young lands work and then longer selections from his work to bring out through this methodology aspects of his poetics and aspects of the way he's creating kind of world in his text that we may not be aware of if we were to adopt a different model of what translation is and how to read according to that model. So, you know, I have a Chinese text here. I'm going to have a dictionary next to me and just produce a translation.
That's not what we're doing here. And in not doing that other elements of his poetics emerge that may have been impossible to get at or get out of the same way otherwise. So your analysis pays particular attention to three notions or three ways of engaging important or ways of engaging three important notions that emerge from young lands poetry and that are revealed by this translation focused methodology of reading that you give us. These are the notions of among others time, space and subjectivity.
So what I'll do is ask you to talk a little bit about these in turn. So first, can you talk a little bit for us about the way young lands poems evoke a particular experience of time and how does your methodology help us see that and can you perhaps give us an example. Sure. So, first of all, I have to explain a little bit the methodology itself that is based on on ships on the concept of ships that however is not as I said before any difference from the social to the target expert actually between the two translations.
The analysis of the analytical part was very much an operation quite repetitive operation that involved a lot of number and counting like, you know, any of these crepensin and grammatical or lexical element and also at the physical level of the layout. So, but although it was very repetitive and tedious at times, at the end, I think of this meticulous operation, there was a reward indeed putting a translation side by side with the source that's had the advantage. Of highlighting to me and to the researcher, I hope a number of turning points where the two translators have had taken different paths. So these turning points are basically this comparative analysis would show clearly those elements in the source that had created disagreement between the translators.
So, I use this shift not to question the accuracy, of course, of the translation, but only signals of what I call detection knots in the source stacks where this disagreement between the translators took place. So, once I started elaborating on these findings on what this shift said about the way the translators interpreted the original, I realized that they were telling me a huge amount of things about the source stacks. So, I realized that they were actually telling a lot of secrets up to original poems. So, I think that it was in this way that I eventually realized that they were telling me something about youngness poems that was unique to this method of revealing.
So, on the basis of corpus that I managed to put together of these 27 texts, so nine points and two translations per poem, I could actually see a sort of map of linguistic. The devices that were used in the source stack center on which I started to believe that the poetic project may have been based on. So, as a final step of this methodology, I use information that I acquired in the analysis and description of translation, and I was able to elaborate on a larger portion of this poet's work, discussing basically these three units that you're mentioning of reading youngness work that is up to time space and subjectivity. So, okay, let's start from the time space dimension.
So, let's say that an increased number of shifts in temporal adverbs and positions and conjunctions in translation are determining these shifts in the spatial temporal setting. And this point to a sort of fluid and abstracts a spatial temporal dimension in the Chinese text. For example, a line is translated by translator A as I think, as you lean into it, the face difference turns to stone. And by another translator, translator B, as Stup's law, Stup's law is face petrified.
So, this example includes two types of syntax. One that is of subordination using translation A, and one of just the positions used in translation B, and arguably in the source stacks. So, if we expand the scope of investigation from this mini corpus to youngness work, we will notice that a wide range of different devices are used to convey time. So, the first one is the presentation of poetic scenes by means of juxtaposition, and as having inclinations that were parallelized.
So, we can find several images or events that are presented as existing in parallel time or in a parallel time frame without a distinct development of time. So, there are also points in which lines describe a quite varied time, so which the translator may convey by, let's say, connugating verbs in different tenses. But it is however clear to me that all these different tenses do not convey a sort of linear development of the events. Instead, they appear to be analytically independent.
So, we have yes, path, present and future, but they all coexist in the same sort of time dimension. So, sometimes a dimension of simultaneity is also patterned at a more conceptual level, or if you want semantic level. For example, there might be an equation of two opposed extremes such as die every day or be born every day. Or, for example, if it's very used in the structure of poem cycles and within this poem cycle structure, you may have a very complex pattern which delivers some kind of time and space dimension.
Indeed, once you move to an exploration of the prosody or the prosodic choices, you will find that young antibiotics often develops time as space. To give you some example, there are eight poems entitled Heaven from the collection E. In these eight poems, the expression of time through prosody relies on a numerological system of black squares. So, this logic has been interpreted by a Chinese critic named He says that the lines which know black squares are active and so visible or positive.
The lines which two black squares are passive or negative, while the lines with one blank square are sort of combination. But apart from this kind of interpretation, I think it is very visual. I think this visual rather than simply acoustic prasity points to a shift from the temporal aesthetic to the poetics of space. I find that in the Indian's poetic strategy, there is an interest to minimize time and materialize it into space.
As for the subjectivity, it is quite a complex issue because I base my elaboration on this side of poetry. On mainly on ships pertaining to personal pronouns. But also, we must say that just to give an example, there is this concept of language that is not subjected to the author's wheel. So, for example, we have the Jannen's calls of this notion of the crocodile word taken by a point cycle called Mask and Crocodiles.
And here we can clearly see that according to this poet language with all its repetitions and references is described as frightening and dangerous for the subjective thought of the poet. For this reason, he talks of himself as a poet, as a liar. Because these words are not subservient to the poet's wheel and thought, but they may act independently. And this is like the cherry on the cake really, because it links again to the issue of authorial intent.
This authorial intent of course exists, but it is not possible, nor is it interesting, probably for us readers or translators, to be sure of not misinterpreting. As it is not possible for the author himself to prevent all possibilities of misinterpretation. So the author can, yes, arrange words in the attempts to express her or his thoughts. But then there is in the working of language, and there is always the intervention of the reader with her personal and cultural and literary background, which will indeed affect her reading.
So according to this view of language and poetic language, subjectivity is very much a fix as well. And this place most of the time, I find it really interesting. I'm not sure that these conclusions or these considerations may have not been reached through other more classical, civil, traditional means. But the thing is that by using this methodology, I managed to look at these aspects of this politics in what I believe is right.
Thank you so much, there is so much about the book that we won't have a few minutes to talk about. It is a really rich study. But one of the things before we come to a close year, I wanted to ask you about comes from your discussion of subjectivity and the author and the issue of authorial intent. This brings to mind the particular circumstance you are writing in, which is one in which the author that you are working on is alive.
You are a contemporary poet, and in particular because you emphasize in the book and in various chapters the fact that poems are not just text on a page, and you really bring to light the importance of the visual and the oral and the performative aspects of the poem. It makes me wonder, it raises a question, in doing this project since the author is contemporary and the author is alive, did you have any interaction with the author in preparing this study? And if so, what was that experience like for you? Of course I have Natyanya many times for research purposes at first and also for friendship later on.
He is really an inspiring and intellectually very agile mind, so it was always a pleasure for me to meet with him. But I've often discussed with him some of my findings, but I have been really careful not to have this discussion before having written down my readings, because I didn't want to be influenced by his authorial intent. But I was very interested in seeing if there was any similarity of reading between my reading and his own reading of his own points. So as a matter of fact I don't even know what he thinks about this book, since he apparently has not yet received his copy, which makes me worry, but I'm sure I will find a way to give his copy at some point.
But I'm very curious to know if he sees his politics reflected in my reading, but from my point of view it's not really the main issue, because as I have tried to articulate, it's just a method of reading poetry, and so it might be that he does not recognise himself. But for some elements I have proved that there is quite a striking similarity. And before we come to a close, were there in engaging with young women about your readings? Were there any moments in which you disagreed, importantly?
And how did you deal with those moments in terms of your reading of the text using this methodology? Yeah, well he also agreed with disagreement in the sense that he also understands reading as a very personal, very individual act. So he would not be upset if he sees his points being totally misinterpreted by me or by any other reader. Indeed, I think that most of his poetry is the focus on this issue of language being escaping his control.
But I remember at some point we have discussed about his rhythm, and I was saying that I've been attending some poetry readings in which he was reading in Chinese and then either another poet or the translator or an actor even would read into English or in Italian, for example. And I was just pointing out that this was a further evidence on how multidimensional rhythm is, so that each of these people were reading in a completely different way, with a completely different rhythm. And they didn't seem to have any attention on the written text. So perhaps at some point there was a full stop or perhaps there was a comma, but nonetheless, when they had to read it out, they would not be any attention and perform these points in a very personal way.
So I remember I discussed about this with him, and he was saying that no, of course that's the way he was reading was totally correspondent to the way the text is on the paper, but actually I couldn't see much or correspondancy in some cases at least. So the physical layout, which to me would guide, as I said, posing or accelerating some points or slowing down in others, were totally personally interpreted. And so I think that's probably rhythm is one of those cases in which you can say. It's an evidence for personally interpreting reading of the poem.
Well, Kvasan, thank you so much for making time to talk with us today. There's so much in the book that we didn't have a chance to talk about. It's a very rich study, but is there anything in particular that we didn't cover that you'd like to point out for listeners, especially listeners who may not yet have had a chance to read it since the book just came out very recently? No, thanks.
I think you gave me enough faith. I just hope that the reader will find it useful somehow. Yep, that's it. So now that the book is out, and congratulations, if I haven't said that already on the book, it's a wonderful book.
What's next for you? What projects are you working on or what project is inspiring you right now? My future research, most probably will concentrate on two main lines of enquiring, which I've already started. One would be constituted by transnational literature through the study of bilingual and sign-of-one literature.
I have already started working on Chinese and English by Lingo Pojian London, and I've also worked on Pojian Pojian from Macau, and the ways in which this works may question certain, well, establish the radical proposition in postcolonial literature. But another main line of enquiring concerns poetry performativity, in particular the integration from the mid-1990s onward of visual, audio, and performing arts components into the Chinese poetic text. So I would like to continue engaging with this kind of poetry, drawing on the research I've already published and integrated with some material that I collected in my field of works in China. I really hope that I will manage to do something in these two directions.
Well, thank you again, because it's been a pleasure, and thank you so much for talking with me today. Thank you very much. You've been listening to new books and East Asian Studies. Thanks very much for joining us, and we'll see you next time.