Wait, you're listening to Radio Lab from WNYC. How do I pronounce your name? Because I'm pronouncing it the Yemeni way. I'm excited about you pronouncing it the Yemeni way.
It's used heavily by Yemenis. Just to mean something nice or something? Or how's your day going? Oh, yeah, I love it.
That makes me feel so warm. Now pronounce your name for me. I know what to say your name the Yemeni way. It's like at the end of the street.
It's too much. Everyone kept calling me Allah. And I was like, I know I'm great. But I think that's too far, guys.
Hey, I'm Latif Nasser. This is Radio Lab. And I'm talking with Allah, al-Shamahi. She's a paleoanthropologist and evolutionary biologist.
And she's like, honestly, the modern day Indiana Jones. She travels all over the place collecting fossils. Sometimes it takes her into active war zones or through pirate-invested waters. And she does all of this to help piece together the story of how humans came to be.
I think it's as well our story is kind of epic, man. I think it's so epic. She's got a new TV show out now on the BBC and PBS. And in it she explains that the origin of our species is kind of surreal.
We lived in a world that was a bit like Lord of the Rings. There was obviously the Neanderthals, which some people have heard of. But there were all these other species including one of my favorites, homophorries, the answers, who were basically these hobbit-like humans. They were really short.
They were about three and a half feet tall. Now that means humans the size of penguins were living on this island in Indonesia called Flores. And on this island there were giant rats and elephants the size of cows. So humans the size of penguins were hunting elephants the size of cows.
And at the same time that you had the Neanderthals and these penguin people, there were also other groups like the Denisovans. The Neanderthals of Asia. There was a species called Homo Naledi, another one called Homo Luzinnensis. This was the world that we were born into.
A world where our little tribe was competing with these other little human-ish tribes. And often losing. We were constantly not succeeding. And then we did.
And we did in the biggest way possible. And the fact that we did. That it was us and not one of these other groups. Ella says that was extremely unlikely.
The story of how that happened is amazing. It's what a TV show is all about. But what I wanted to talk to Ella about was this other very unlikely thing. Her origin story.
And the fact that she's the one telling us about all this stuff in the first place. Okay. So what you're referring to that is something which I guess I have not really known how to talk about. God, I've been talking recently.
In fact, one of my friends said, just last year you said that you might go to a grave with this. Wow. Why is why was why has this been so tender? You come from a religious background.
I was very devout. No way. Yeah. And then I went off to high school.
I went off to college and I was like, oh, this isn't what I thought it was. And the. I did not know that. Yeah.
I never get to have this conversation with people who have any kind of religious background alone. I'm a sub background. Yeah. I think my fear is that I do not want my story to be a stick to be people who are in religious communities with.
I don't want that either. And actually, I feel like hearing Allah's story in her own words and how surprising and insightful and moving it is. Like, I think it'll do the opposite. So I just asked Ella to tell me about it starting from the beginning.
The community is incredibly tight. It was incredibly protective. It was absolutely overprotective as well. You know, like, I had a woman.
I'm sure. Yeah. I didn't wear trousers. I didn't want makeup.
It was an ultra conservative community. Where are you? Where are you? Where are you?
Where are you? Where are you? Yeah. Yeah.
So I was a journalist of the denomination you came from or the sect or whatever. You were pretty much anti-evolution. And I really, really talked to it. Like, for me, that's okay.
So the way, when I grew up, it was this feeling of, okay, evolution is true, but Allah is this invisible hand guiding evolution. It feels like you didn't have that. Yeah. No.
Clearly, you know, your family, clearly there were families and individuals who did explain things like that. But there was no space for evolution in my family. And it was absolutely not an emotional reward. And what did you believe?
Like, what was the creation story that you believed? Yeah. How did you think people came to be? So I personally believed that we were created in a week, basically, God created in a week, as in the whole world, including Adam and Eve.
It's weird. I feel like I know the Christian creationist story better than I know the Muslim creationist story in a way or is it very similar? Very similar. The very, very similar.
The one difference is that the Christians give God a day off. Muslims are like, God doesn't need a day off. Anyway, so Allah was all in on this version of Islam. And before she even learned how to drive, she started sharing it with other people.
Yeah. I became a missionary the age of 13 and like traveled the UK, being a missionary. And missionary means like you were going to, who are you going to talk to? Well, I was speaking to more labs, Muslims, but also to the wider public.
Now, it's not hard to, what years were these like? Basically, you know, in the 90s, I was basically, certainly in the 2000s. Because I was thinking like, after 2000, that would be a much harder job talking to the lay public about Islam. Well, except that we felt like we had clearly been misrepresented by these lunatics, right?
By these terrorists. And also remember our communities were there for under more attack. Right. I was really young.
It was kind of the world I knew and I guess I have always been an all or nothing kind of person. Like I clearly do not know how to do things in halves. And so I was like, okay, so this is the world around me. I'm not going to just do it in the can't chill that way that I should have done it like siblings.
You were more like hard, hard edge about it. Maybe you were more hardcore. You were more hardcore than you. I mean, you know, if you were to speak to them, I don't want to put words in the mouth.
No. They, they're just like, you just didn't have any chill. You know, so it's really funny. So they look at me now and they're like, you still don't have chill.
Like you just went from one extreme to the, you know, just really funny because they're not wrong. I was like, I'm not going to be relaxed. Was it one of those things like I remember for us like it was like, like, and I was, I feel like someone was like, he was like, he's like a bunch of my friends. Like they would, they would go to the mosque.
They would go to the mosque. They would like, but then it's like afterwards, like it's like, it's like, it's like, like we're going to go drinking and we're going to find like, it was like, that's like, we would have had thoughts about you. I didn't do that. My buddies did that.
And I was the straight edge kid who was like, no, no, no, I'm not drinking. I'm not, I'm not smoking weed. I'm not doing anything. So I was so strict that those guys wouldn't have even been my friends except that I might have taken them on as projects.
Right. So okay. Imagine you're a missionary and you're that age and you're good. Right?
Yeah. You're a big thing that's hanging over you. It's what you're going to do at university. Because that was a big deal on your family.
Yeah. And our family having a master's degree as the equivalent of a high school education. Wow. What are all these people?
What do they study? All kinds of things. Historians, some legal, but like theology kind of legal minds. Okay.
And my dad was very encouraging of us going to sciences. Other people from her community had studied science to go into medicine or engineering, but Ella had a different idea. I was like, I'm going to go study evolution because I'm going to destroy Darwin's theory. Wow.
Yeah. I tackled the underlying assumptions of things. And then to expose them and then to persuade them and then to like, like. To basically proselytize my version of it.
Yeah. Okay. So you're saying it's like this. Well, actually, have you considered it's actually like this?
Yeah. Have you considered the data could actually fall into this interpretation instead. And why that? Like, why was that the thing you fix it on?
Because I'm a missionary. My whole, my whole purpose is like to bring people to the message, to bring people to God. Right. And one of the biggest reasons why they're not is that they believe that God doesn't exist.
And the reason for that is the evolution exists. So it's like, it's like, it's really is like a, like for you, I mean, it feels like it's, it's like the same debate from like Darwin's time. Like it's like, Oh my God. We came from apes.
We came from God. Yeah. That whole monkey story ain't going to fly and kind of thing. So, so, so when you applied, like what did you say or what did they?
Yeah. Somebody asked me this recently. They're like, hold on. Hold on.
So you start there on the interview and you were like, yeah, so I'm just going to be destroying your theory from the end. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
What did you say? None of that. You were lying. That was a lie.
I mean, I was it. I guess so. I'm not happy with the fact that you use that word, but I guess it was. Yeah.
It was a lie of a mission. Right. For sure. Yeah.
Well, actually, I guess it must have been a lie because when they ask you why do you want to study this, the actual answer is because I want to destroy this. And I clearly wasn't saying. Damn it. Did you, was this like a private mission or did you talk to people about this?
My, my, the other mission reason on you about this. Yeah. So, yeah. So, but it wasn't, you know, I was never turning around telling the other classmates who were.
You were a double agent, basically. I like the sound of the. I mean, if you'd have known me at the age of 18, I was a dork. Yeah.
So, I do think a double agent is somewhat hilarious. Look, I was obsessed. I was a woman on a mission. And so I turned up to university college London, which for those of you in the know is known as the godless place on Gower Street because it's the first university to have like allowed non church of England.
Wow. People to kind of join up. And I went to the Darwin building because Charles Darwin himself, he lived there. Yeah.
And that was my department. And by the way, it's kind of hilarious because I was like dressed in very, very conservative with some garb. I wasn't even just a hedgehog. I was in the full.
So I wasn't just in the head covering. I was in the full jubai, which was like a full cloak. Yeah. By the way, not that there's anything wrong with like with dressing however you want.
I'm like, man, you just be you, you know, there were a few girls of hijab actually, but they were interested in more medical genetics. They weren't kind of doing what I was kind of what I was covertly up to. Right. I remember there was one girl who was also kind of vaguely associated with my world kind of thing.
Yeah. And she was there and I was so excited because I thought I'd found like a partner in her. I was like, oh my god. And I was sitting there and I was like, right.
I was like, oh, I'm not going to be a little bit of a theory. Like I'm just thinking that actually there's a different interpretation that you can have for this data blah blah blah. And she just freaked out and she looked at me. She was just like, look, I'm here because this is a mandatory course.
I have to pass the solution class. Otherwise I might be good. Like she had a firewall up. Yeah.
But for Ella, there was no wall. Like she was pushing these two worlds right up against each other. So there's like two things going on. Right.
So I'm just living my life being a missionary. I have an arranged marriage and like via my email, by the way, my dad wasn't even involved. That started in university or in grad school or? Oh, my first semester at university.
Really? Yeah. He wanted me to marry one of his other students. And I was like, okay.
And so that took a while. Excited about were you flattered? Was that feel good or is that feel icky? You know what?
Like I didn't know him. I had three chaperoned meetings with him to decide if I was going to agree to marry him. And then we basically never talked ever. I can't explain it enough.
I just didn't know him. You know, and like we have to get my dad to agree. And so that took a while because I didn't want to be getting married before I finished my first degree. And so we have to wait.
And so, you know, all of this was going on as you know, traveling up and down like doing this doing that. It's like, it's just constantly like picking at this, this, this theory of Darwin's right. I mean, effectively what I was doing was trying to unpack a massive puzzle. Now everybody else had already unpacked it 150 years ago.
And I'm coming along being like, hold on. We can't just, yeah. We can't just, yeah. And I thought it was something.
Give me a minute. And by the way, some people do that to great success. Yeah. Some people have won Nobel Prizes on the back.
Yeah. I just picked the wrong puzzle. Right. So Ella is going to class every day, learning about the evidence for evolution and the story, the scientists say that that evidence tells us.
And of course, she's looking for holes in that story. And one of the first holes that Ella had always noticed was that particular moment in evolution when one species somehow like poof becomes another. Like, how does that happen? And then one day she's sitting in class and the professors are talking about this experiment.
The drosophila fruit-like bare mint. Yeah. So basically because the, because drosophila live for such a short amount of time, you can basically like, you know, instead of it being, you know, a mountain pops up between two animals and it takes like, you know, hundreds of thousands of years. Yeah.
And with drosophila in a lab and you're kind of doing it a much shorter time from, you're just kind of separating them. Yeah. And without getting into it, they were starting to see the process of speciation in the lab. And I was like, oh, that's not good.
Because if we're watching them become new species, we're watching evolution, which I don't think happened. Yeah. But my, my only comfort with that experiment was that it was being done in the lab. And I just thought, okay, but that might not be happening in nature.
Yeah. Maybe it's being forced in the lab. Maybe in nature that wouldn't be happening. And I was told that she keeps going to more lectures and eventually she's running into other problems, like, stratigraphy, just the layers of earth and that kind of sequence of animals that you get in them.
And they are broadly chronological. And you do see an evolutionary process there. Yeah. You just do.
It's really, really hard to think. It's like, you dig deeper. You see simpler things kind of general. Yeah.
You know it is. Forgive my language. You can't broad, you're like the BBC, right? You can't broadcast swearing.
No, we can broadcast swearing. Oh, nice. Sorry, I've been cleaning up my language. No, go away.
Yeah. Like, you would, you would be looking at these, um, stratigraphic sequences. And it was, you know, my language was a motherfucker, because you were just like, right, we haven't gone from complex to simple, by and large we go from simple to complex, or more complex. And it was just a consistent pattern.
And it's very, very hard to explain that. So then I was like, okay, the real, real issue is, Adam and Eve, right? So technically speaking, I can believe in evolution, as long as it's not Adam and Eve, as long as it's not us, we're the exception, right? Right, right, so you're like, okay, so you gave a little ground, you were like, this makes sense, I can give it.
A lot of ground, all other species. All other species others. All the other billions. It's just, but not us.
Yeah. And then what happened was, I came across retrotransposons, which were very, very complicated to explain, but basically it's like a foreign organism's DNA within our own bodies, within every. So retrotransposons, they're little bits of DNA, from, for example, a virus that infected our ancestors millions of years ago, and just like got stuck in our genome and passed on from generation to generation. They're like this little historical record of something that happened to us a long, long time ago.
And the reason Ella remembers this, is that when she was learning about retrotransposons in a lecture, the professor mentioned this weird fact about these little bits of DNA. The pattern of mutations within the retrotransposons that we have, a line on a family tree with what you would expect from evolution if you then looked at those same retrotransposons within chimps. In other words, these little bits of DNA, I mean, there are hundreds of them, are lodged in the chimps genome in exactly the same places that they're lodged in our genome. How does that, like the only interpretation of the mutations that you find in retrotransposons is that it's evolution through a decentable modification of hundreds of thousands.
There's no other interpretation. Like God would have had to copy paste or something? Yeah, this is the thing, because one of the arguments that you don't know, one of the arguments that creationists use to explain, well, why is our DNA so similar? Like, why is our DNA system?
It's chips, they're like, yeah, but they look similar. And they have so many similar behaviors, so many mechanisms of what? I don't know, level, or one level. You're like, oh, okay, that is actually, like there was some logic to that.
Retrotransposons, they're not functional. It's not like, oh, it's a bit of DNA that helps me process, for example, water or helps me process carbohydrates. It's a non-functional bit of DNA. And yet its mutation pattern fits almost perfectly with an evolutionary family tree.
And it was just like, ah, it's just, sorry, that's the noise that you make, when your whole life is about to fall apart. Like, that exact noise is the noise you make. And I was just in hell, like I was in hell. There'd be times where I'd just be looking out my window, just going, oh my God, like, what is this?
Like, what am I gonna do? Were you living with this guy at that point? Or what would you? Is this guy an ex husband?
Yeah. You're married? Yeah, our marriage wasn't doing great, partly because we had an arranged marriage and we didn't know each other. But partly for a number of different reasons, one of which was this issue.
Like, you know, he, like, I was clearly struggling. And then there was a moment, just an awful moment, which was kind of, I was just in the shower. And as you often do in the shower, you're kind of just having a conversation with yourself. You're also, you know, bluntly naked and you're very exposed, but you're in a safe place, right?
And I kind of, I basically tell myself that I have to find the strength to be honest, that I just, I believe in evolution. And I just felt at the floor. Like, I just, I was like, is staring at me crying. I was so, so distraught.
And the reason I was so distraught at this point was that I knew that I meant I was gonna have to leave my world. How do you leave your whole world and try to join another one? And what does it do to you if you do that? We'll be right back.
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Hey, I'm Latif Nasser, this is Radio Lab. I'm talking with Ella Olshamahi, who went into college as a creationist and came out an evolutionary biologist. If 180 that she feared would basically destroy her life as she knew it. I had no idea what was gonna happen with my family, because it just happened to my family before it.
But what I didn't know is it was gonna drive a massive wedge. And why did it feel so existential? These things could not coexist. There was no room for you to believe in evolution and still be a part of your community.
Because it's such an extreme thing in my world and say that you believe evolution. And that's just, we just didn't do that. And by the way, all cases where that did happen, let me tell you loads of those guys got caught off. Thank God my siblings came through in the way that they did.
How did they come through? They decided to embrace me regardless. They decided that I was just a story godless. Ah, makes one cry.
And what about your friends and other people in the community? I didn't tell people. I just disappeared, I didn't tell people. You just go to people?
Yeah, I literally just disappeared. And that's because I was a missionary and I knew the training. And the training is if somebody falls, you go collect them basically. And I did not have the energy.
And also, this is the strange thing. I didn't want anyone else to follow me because I don't want them to go through what I was going through. I was like, no, you don't need to learn about evolution. You just stay where you are.
Yeah, yeah. This is awful. It was truly awful time. I had no idea how to exist in a secular world.
Suddenly, every single thing did not have a rule attached to it, which you might think is freeing, except if that's the only thing you've ever known, that's terrifying. It was like you went into the bathroom with a left foot, you left foot, you wrote with your right hand, you went to the front, went to the left hand. Yeah, it's like every single thing is prescribed. And suddenly it was like, good luck.
I didn't make eye contact with men. I literally never made eye contact with men. I took my headscarf off. And I basically turned up to a gas station.
And it was the most anti-covactic. LAUGHTER And it's probably informed the huge part of my performance since because no man cared. I had been told my whole life that my hair was like, and you've got to cover up because it's a fifth night. It's like it corrupts the earth if you...
It's about translation. But it's all these things you've got to do to not... Because it's like raw sexuality. It's that kind of thing.
I don't know what it was because nobody cared. Nobody cared. Nobody cared. I cannot express this enough.
No men dropping from my sheer beauty. Nobody was fainting. Nobody was doing anything. Nobody cared.
And it was so funny. But it was quite an adjustment. It was like, I've got to now learn to fit in. And it's funny because I think anthropologists traditionally, and I'm a pale anthropologist, you know, you kind of go and sit with these exotic, inversed commerce tribes and you kind of learn their ways.
And I was like, my exotic tribe is just central London. That's it. Me. And I would sit there studying people's behaviour and going right, so this is how they act.
Okay, so this is... Okay, all right. So that's... I wrote a book about the handshake.
It's like, the book about the handshake does not come because somebody is like, just casually not questioning. Writing a book about the handshake comes when you are obsessively reading the behaviour of every person around you. Because in your culture, you never shook hands with men. I had this one friend who was just like, oh, you must be so relieved to be free.
And I was just like, do you understand the trauma that I've just been through? I don't know what this. This isn't what I wanted. So I'm like, now, 10, 13 years later, I can look back and go.
I'm glad that, you know, I'm not constrained by dogma unless I pick that dogma. But, you know, let's not pretend that this is a fun world. I mean, it's definitely rather be here. But let's not pretend it's perfect.
I think the community thing is such a... I think this is what I have found really, really, really difficult to explain to so many of my secular friends who are basically my tribe now, let's be honest, right? Yeah. I will never, ever, ever be in a community like that again.
I think religious communities are warm. They engulf you. They embrace you. Your hot water goes off.
Everybody offers you their place. Somebody ends up in hospital and people get angry with the hospital administration because they're like, what are you talking about when two people are visiting us? And what's this visiting us? This person needs us all around the clock.
And it's just kind of... Oh my God, I feel I'm raising kids right now and I'm not raising them in the mosque that I grew up in. And it's sad. It's so difficult.
It was like, I didn't know who I was anymore. And the people that were around me that would normally love me and knew who I was, they were all new too. And in the midst of all this upheaval, Ella was still going to school and starting to become obsessed with the things she would spend her entire career studying, our origin story. That moment when there were all these little groups of proto-humans living together on the planet at the same time, but also very much separate from one another.
I think it is no surprise having gone through what I've gone through that when I look at our story, the science of our story, that I feel something. Like I feel something. We know that everybody from outside of South Africa and even some people within South Africa have something out of all DNA in them. And that can only be explained by basically one of our great-gr-gr-gr grandparents having sex with any other soul.
So there's a scandal in the family basically. Now, usually the way this would be presented is, oh, this is in the end of the DNA. So that means that there was some kind of intercourse, blah, blah, blah. We take a moment.
And instead it's like, hold on a second. That means that one of our ancestors, not like a theoretical, like one of my new ancestors was half-half. And I'm not mixed-race, but I'm mixed-race. I'm a British Arab.
Let me tell you, that was confusing growing up at times. At times I was like, it was weird. I'm like, what would it be like to not just be mixed-race, but mixed-species? What would that have been like?
And what would the mother have felt? How would she have felt? Would she have been sitting there hoping that the child would have been more homo sapiens than Neanderthal? Because she doesn't want to take ostracized, she doesn't want to get to.
Wow. Like pregnant. Like that mom is sitting there pregnant thinking about what her baby, whether her baby is going to have a brow ridge or a chin or something. Seriously.
Is there any evidence to suggest that crossovers like Neanderthal and homo sapiens, us, goblings, made us more successful? Like those? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So we were the new kid on the block. And for example, when we entered into Neanderthal territory, Neanderthal territory being kind of Europe and Northern Asia, we would not have had immunities to local diseases. So when we interbreed with those people, it's effectively like a cheat.
So suddenly we end up with immunities to things that would have taken us, ourselves tens of thousands of years to evolve. There are some really, really good examples actually. And the best one is the Tibetan example. Are you familiar with this one?
No, Tommy. So Tibetans live at obviously very high altitude. And the genetic mechanism by which they are able to exist at high altitude is very different from genetic mechanism that exists in other populations who exist at high altitude. And the mutation is actually one that they inherited off the disturbance.
Like we drank their superpowers kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
So now, so there are these sort of hybrid people. Yeah. And you are kind of like, in a way, you're one of these crossover people. I mean, this experience, this ordeal that went to.
Yeah. Yeah. But like what? So if that's the value of the crossover person, it's like, oh, I can get, I now have superpowers from both worlds or something.
What did you gain from that crossover? I would say I was so traumatized by it. And still am like within a second, I could get quite upset about it. And I think when you've been through that, you are a much more patient with people who deny the science, don't trust the science.
Because I understand that I am, when I am trying to persuade somebody of a scientific point, nine times out of 10, I'm not trying to persuade them of one scientific point. I'm effectively taking apart their worldview. Yeah. Because I've gone through that, I approach that with empathy by and large.
It doesn't mean that every time I don't get irritated, but I just fundamentally at my core understand that when somebody has that belief, it's not one belief, it's a belief system. And I then approach it as such. So then what I find myself doing is I actually have less interest in debating that point with them and more interested in bonding with them as a person and showing them who I am and me seeing their humanity. That's why it's gently does it for me in terms of methodology.
And also fundamentally in my mind accepting that they may never believe, they may never accept my version of events and that's okay. Ela Al Shammahi. Again, her show is called Human, it's on PBS and the BBC. Man, she's so good in it and it really features the full menagerie of proto humans.
The team of fully human humans who put this episode together, not even one year at all among them, was Jessica Young and Pat Walters with Health from Sarakari. It was back checked by Diane Kelly, special thanks to Homse Saeed and Misha Yousaf and you for listening. We will be back soon with another episode. I just have to kill this tiny elephant first.
Catch you later. Hi, I'm Monica and I'm from Mexico City and here are the staff credits. Radio live was created by Jad Abumroj and is edited by Jordan Wheeler. Lula Mila and Lattice Nada are all co-hosts.
Nana Kiffi is our director of Chaunce Science. Our staff includes Simon Eveler, Jeremy Bloom, W. Hari Fortuna, David Gabel, Maria Paazu-Pieris, Sunu Yang-San-Bandon, Matt Keilke, Annie McEwen, Alex Nisen, Sarakari, Sarakari, Sarakan Sanva, Arian Wack, Cott Vultures, Molly Webster and Jessica Young, with Health from Reda Karam. Our back figures are Diane Keilke, Emily Kritter, Anna Boudur-Massini and Natalie Lidotam.
Hey, Radio Lab. Michael, Tacoma, Washington. Leadership support for Radio Lab Science Programming is provided by the Simon Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radio Lab was provided by the Alfred P.
Sloan Foundation.