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Hello, and thank you for joining us. Today we bring you to a special episode that combines two of our ongoing series, Survival by Degrees and Quality Education, to give a new perspective on how integrating climate action into our education systems can help secure a sustainable future. On your host, Lee Jung-Recko. Today we're speaking with Radhika Ingar.
She's an associate research scholar at the Earth Institute at Columbia University, and Christina Kwok. She's a non-resident fellow at Brookings and research director at Unbounded Associates in Washington, D.C. Their book is Curriculum and Learning for Climate Action, toward an SDG 4.7 roadmap for systems change. Thank you so much, you both, for coming here today.
Thank you so much for having us. Thank you, Lee. So you know that people today are the most educated in human history, yet we're also the most destructive to life on this planet. So if that's the case, what role if any does the education system play in combating climate change?
Yeah, so this is Christina. So I'll start with this one. I think that the fundamental takeaway here is that education has everything to do with climate action. But what the problem is, is that we have typically looked at education in an industrial revolution lens, where we mass educate students for the kinds of skills that are needed for the workforce.
And we've come into time where we really need to begin to rethink the very purpose of education. So now we've, you know, this book that Radikana have both co-edited, you know, it started at the very beginning of the pandemic and lots of conversations around the need to build back better to really rethink how our education systems are perpetuating inequalities and so on. But oftentimes these discussions, you know, really remained in the area of thinking about how can we really achieve greater efficiency and greater effectiveness within our education system, which in effect is really about solving problems in education. So it's, you know, doesn't necessarily change the surrounding and existing systems and structures that really inform what goes on in schools and within and across education system.
And sometimes, you know, especially with it with COVID that had meant also to think about how the education system can help to grant equal access or better access to those populations that were particularly harmed or excluded by the widespread school disruptions and school closures that COVID brought on. And so all of this sort of conversation was really, you know, it was about, you know, improving the internal workings of the education system and really not addressing that broader systemic change. And so when we talk about the climate crisis and, you know, what, you know, COVID might have taught us about the shortcomings and the weaknesses and the pitfalls of the education system is that really we need to begin to shift to have a bigger conversation around problems of education. So really thinking about the underlying purpose of education, redefining that purpose of education in the context of our, you know, harmful systemic and structural inequalities that COVID and climate crisis are exposing and really begin to confront the harmful social norms and social structures that that our education systems are also playing a part in perpetuating.
So, you know, while we're, you know, in the book we mentioned, you know, yes, we're the most educated in history, the most destructive. And I think that really boils down to like the underlying values that our education system is helping to perpetuate and how those values have really begun to untether human society from our very planetary connections and really, you know, are living within planetary boundaries. And so, you know, I think part of this part of the role of education system in combating climate changes to begin really asking these very, very difficult transformative questions that can get us to think about the education system as not just enabling, you know, behavioral change and adoption of technical climate solutions, but really getting into the broader political changes that are needed through our systems and through our structures and even more importantly, getting at the deeply held beliefs, our worldviews, our paradigms and really expand some of that expand our mindsets to really begin to see how our human systems are intricately connected to our planetary systems. Yeah, I think it's interesting that you mentioned some of the values that we've held in our education system, especially the political values that we've held.
I think that when you introduce the book, you talk about how so much of this is rooted in a neoliberal view. And it seems that the pandemic has upended that. And when I've talked with authors about this before on the subject of climate change, they've mentioned that the pandemic is sort of a dress rehearsal for climate change. Absolutely.
Yes. I think that it really begins, even in the conversations around building back better. It's like, this is how we're beginning to think about broader systems change and it gets confined to near liberal fixes within the system, like again, thinking about greater efficiency and greater effectiveness. Maybe talking a little bit about equity, but really not addressing the underlying systemic systemic changes that have to happen to really begin to transition society to a more transformative view of how education can help enable the kind of long term changes that are needed, not just these short technofixes and behavioral changes that might on an individual level make us feel better, but really get us to the political systemic changes that are needed to transform a very structured systems that the climate crisis is.
It's the collective problem. It's a systems problem. It's not an individual problem. And I think when we fall back to the neoliberal mindset, it's really easy to say education just for behavioral change.
But what we need is education for systems change. So yes, getting to some of those systemic changes. Let's talk about COP26. What are some of the policy recommendations that this book suggests on climate education?
Yeah, so with COP26, I think, you know, certainly highlighted the great progress that has been made around education and climate change. I mean, certainly this year had an unprecedented attention to the role of education in climate solutions and climate strategies, although that level of ambition was certainly at the bare minimum in terms of, you know, what kinds of conversations were included, at least in the plenary sessions. But I think what COP has certainly showed us is that, you know, while there's still need for an in much room to continue engaging in the policy level advocacy around the need to get governments, leaders and officials to pay greater attention to education in the context of climate change. What there has been lacking is really recommendations around how to implement these actions.
Radik and I have had many conversations around sort of, you know, what's the use of these high level political fora where political leaders might have, you know, might make declarations or have empty state empty promises And really kind of where we need to begin to shift our attention is the action on the ground, the implementation support, how to put this into practice. And I think that's where that's really where our book begins to kind of direct attention towards and I'd love to invite Radik to stuff in as well to speak to this. But, you know, we've structured the book in five particular sections or five parts to help us begin to understand, you know, five potential pathways for greater, you know, yes, policy attention, but even more importantly, greater attention by practitioners, by leadership of, you know, schools, universities, teachers to really begin to take action on the ground and begin to move the needle by really harnessing the demand, the energy and the passion of students and teachers to address the climate crisis. Maybe I'll pause here and let Radik speak.
So, yeah, so I just want to take it back on what Christina just mentioned, like how do we use this book to have those pathways that we discuss in the book itself and how do we envision this radical thinking, this transformative action that we are seeing that is much needed in the education system to look at climate issues. So our book, one of the things that it's suggesting is that there is no one pathway that we need to adopt to look at the systems change that we are suggesting in the book, it has multiple pathways and that's the, Christina and I've had these discussions that is our book really getting at the transformative education that the world really needs. And the answer is there is no one answer, there are multiple authors, there are 44 authors in the book and they are suggesting a system by change across the board. We are looking at structural changes, we are looking at the colonial legacies that we are all trapped in and that one thing is common amongst all these pathways is that we need to be looking at much more deeper issues, we need to be looking at much more, you know, the purpose of education, we need to be looking at all the structural inequalities, we need to be looking at who are the voices that are missing.
So again, looking at various different mediums, various different ways where we can build in this systemic change that we are that we are wanting to address a very good structural framework that we are using as the SDG specially SDG 4.7, because it's giving a much more deeper meaning to education, it's looking at gender, it's looking at climate education, it's looking at peace education, human rights, and that is really a good lever to think about the different pathways. So luckily, the UN has adopted SDGs and we are looking at SDG 4.7 and it's high time that we actually start looking at SDG 4.7 and start ways of seeing how we can actually implement the implement what the countries have promised in terms of SDG 4.7 and our book is suggesting clear pathways of what everyone can do using the SDG 4.7 framework. And for some of our listeners who might not be entrenched in sustainability or the climate change movement, can you just explain for them what is SDG 4.7 and then tell me a little bit more about those pathways and those goals that your book sets out. So SDG 4.7 is looking at not just basic literacy and numeracy, it is looking at different ways of bringing in the quality of education by looking at gender, by looking at peace education, it has human rights education, it has climate education.
So these are the different elements that SDG 4.7 brings in, it's a very ambitious agenda that the UN has put forward and we are very lucky that from the previous MDG era, which only looked at access to schooling, now we have a much more ambitious agenda to look forward to, which brings in all these different paradigms, all these different areas, which are in itself for huge, you know, deeper areas to look at. But here SDG 4.7 is looking at how we can bring in transformative education, how we can build in quality of education, but not just looking at, you know, functional literacy issues, we are looking at much more deeper, much more transformative issues that we need to be looking at for future education. And so, we are really giving us the roadmap for a much greener future, a more tolerant future, a more empathetic future, and this is how we educate our kids using SDG 4.7. And getting to some of those goals that are not just climate-based, but as you mentioned goals of empathy, how does the work you're highlighting this book move toward the ideal ecological environment that Pope Francis has described?
And I think even Kristina and I were having this workshop, this book is actually a result of a workshop that we had where many people had joined with this, with the conference that we were a part of, compared to international education society conference. There were many different stakeholders and a lot of stakeholders, including student leaders, including youth or school leaders, including religious leaders. So, and we realize that that angle is not a traditional education angle, and that needs to also be included in the books somehow. And so, Pope Francis is also the Dalai Lama, it's also the Hindu philosophy of looking at Mother Earth, we call Earth as Mother Earth.
The Dalai Lama has also proposed many ways of simple ways of looking, being empathetic towards nature, being a part of nature. And Pope Francis of course, had his first encyclical, Laotakosi in 2015, on care for our human, care for our common home. And so, he there suggests different ways of raising consciousness, and he talks about ecological ethics. And that has been largely missing in the education system on how we need to take care, how we humans are a part of nature and how we need to coexist with all living beings.
And so, again bringing that aspect in into our book, through the voice of various stakeholders that we were speaking to at that time, looking at peace education again human rights, looking at all the different aspects, looking at how we are a part of nature. And again, following Pope, what Pope Francis had mentioned in terms of raising consciousness by bringing in voices from the youth, bringing in very different voices that were, you know, just common voices like you and me, we are not bringing in, you know, the traditional voices, we needed to bring in many different voices, we needed to bring in climate experts who are not a part of the education conversation. And Christina and I decided that let's just bring in this book with very different voices to ensure that we are bringing in religious leaders, we are bringing in various different voices to education so that we can hear various perspectives. And the pathways that we are suggesting are not just traditional pathways that are not groundbreaking that are not inclusive.
We, through this book, ensured that we are bringing in voices we are bringing in this, I guess, philosophical base to education, one of our authors have listed to one to as a philosophy which is very much aligned to Pope Francis's mission on taking care of our earth and along with other religious heroes. Christina and Radhika, thank you so much again for taking the time to speak with me today. Thanks so much for having us today. Thank you.
Radhika Ayngar and Christina Quok, their book is curriculum and learning for climate action toward an SDG 4.7 roadmap for systems change. You are listening to the Humanities Matter podcast. You can find more podcast episodes on Apple podcast, Spotify and Google podcast.