E100 Matt Hewson and Janine Saunders

This week marks our 100th episode of our podcast, joining us for this special episode are Matt Houston and Janine Saunders. We discussed the current climate of working in the service industry and hiring staff in these pandemic times. We talked about some of the various pet peeves of customers that we've all experienced over the years. Matt and Janine discussed our optimism about the future of the service industry and of course we have a couple of drinks throughout the episode as well.

Thanks to everyone who has had a chance to listen to the podcast and cheers to the next 100 episodes. Well, welcome to a very special episode of the industry podcast. Dan, we did it. We turned 100.

I'm impressed. I'm still the 90 plus episodes word I thought we were going to do. I know. And think about how many beers and bottles of wine that is.

I'm sure there's a shit on the start. And a lot of tequila. Yeah. Shadowtooth, Aetramba for all of the tequila lines and PMA fucking PMA.

But enough PMA people on this podcast, it should be sponsoring us right now. Well, cheers to the end of that episode. Cheers. I got a little champagne for us here.

We'll pop that. 100 episodes. When we first started our first episode we did live from Sugar Run. Lots of ambient noise.

We were very drunk. And there was no panic. That's correct. So cheers, folks.

And great guess for you as always today. We'll get to them in just a minute. And we feel like it. Yeah, it's pretty crazy.

100 fucking episodes. Yeah. Cheers to the next 100. We make it another 100.

That will truly be a Christmas miracle. That's true. Alright, well it's yours. 100 episodes of the industry podcast.

Yeah, it's been a fun time. It's been a fun time. We've interviewed a ton of people considering the fact that there are on a lot of these episodes. We had more than one guest.

So if you can just list all 100 from memory. Forgive me the last one. I was talking to Grishu. Yeah, okay.

I got a separate part of that. And then it just tails off. So this is Chutavan Kollos. There's Chutavan, the manager, still is listening to these.

I'm saying we have my current Byron manager from Sugar Round as well as my current Byron manager from Babylon Sisters. These are both bars in Kichanawatta and you should be checking out. So we should, I should also mention that we have exciting news. We are now working with Little Mushroom Catering to supply food for both spots.

So we'll have a bit of a beefed up dinner menu. Had Babylon Sisters have started picking about us a little earlier in the evening. And Sugar Round is going to have a much more extensive menu as well. So that's exciting news.

Wonderful. I believe it's all that in the Chunos is always. Yeah, for those who want to check them out? That's a lot of words.

So in celebration of our 100th episode, I do have the two managers of the bars at both of my bars with us today. We have Matt Houston. Hi, Don Matt. Great.

It's a beautiful show. And Janine Saunders. Hello. Here's something interesting that you may or may not know.

Is that Janine Saunders is actually my wife. Cheers. Yeah, we all were. Oh, there was that one night.

So seriously, you guys, once again, thanks for doing the show. Yep. We turned 100. It feels like it.

After two years of this bullshit. I feel like I have the Super Bowl party. Oh, that's true. It's something like when we first did the very first episode.

We certainly didn't think that we'd be going through this crazy up and down with the pandemic. And that actually affected the show, where we literally went to Zoom for so long. And so we're back to doing some interviews in person again, which is high-person, I prefer. Yeah, it's a nice show.

I know you know people. So that's true. I can hear it, right? OK.

So that's the difficulty. Obviously, we've interviewed people from all over the world. So there are a lot of people still down by Zoom. Today's the same person, because we know these people.

So guys, thanks for doing the 100th episode of the industry podcast. I tried to convince Matt exactly 100 times to do it. Yes. I mean, I was just like your saying it was the year interest.

I was like, there's no way that's been more than that. Yeah, two years. Like back when we, the pandemic was not even a thing when we did the first episode. It's crazy to think about now.

I think so long ago. Yes, it does. I know it doesn't matter. I know it doesn't matter.

I do imagine a world. I'm not sure what episode. I'm still going to be talking about pandemic. I don't know how to answer that.

If we do, I'm going to think about something for that. So let's talk about that just again. Let's start off with, let's talk a little bit about some of the challenges you guys have felt over the last couple years of dealing with this orchids. I know that we won't dwell on this, but we're all fucking tired of talking about it.

But we'll talk to us a little bit about the last two years of your life and dealing with bartending going and pandemic. I mean, you know how many times you're gliding off? I mean, yeah, I've been bartending so consistently. I didn't realize how bad I'd be at the lockdown.

I'm just thinking how much I'd have to miss doing all this stuff. And then at the same time, it's always so stressful. Going back to the 7th flow of start stuff, and then you go back half capacity, you go back to the full capacity. It's so much more than the when you start bars and go to a new job, there's always that sort of shaky feeling.

I'm like, don't even remember how to do that. But this, it's been like relearning on the basic level. And closing it is explosive early. So how did that, what do you think about that, Janine?

Like, what have you felt? Yeah, like during the last call, we had to do that nine, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, that was just crazy.

You just kind of felt like you were eating your flow for the night, you know, like, because it kind of takes you a bit, right? Like, it's always been a bit of a slow start. And then, yeah, I feel like around like 9, 10, 11 is when you're kind of like, okay, like, like, we're not having any time. People's drinking habits are so different.

I remember coming out of the first really long walk of having to cut people off at 10 p.m. They've been drinking at the police and drinking at home, and they're so excited to come back up now. That's where we should, like, put our phone off the street. And I was the last call.

Yeah. How would the lockdowns be, like, personally, as far as, like, in a mental health area? Because I know, specifically, everyone struggled with their mental health during those last couple years. Hopefully, it's something that we're coming out of a little bit.

I know I certainly did, but, like, specifically in the service industry, like, we've been hitting some of the hardest of anyone with constant lockdowns, even when other people are still allowed to go to work or at least work from home. Did you, did either of you have any struggles with that? For sure, yeah. I mean, I think the first one was opening because I realized that even when I'm off, I'm still not going to write the next great American novel.

You think you're not a prolific creative, you know, more working. Right. And then also, I had nothing at the time, you know, for the first two months. You might say, fuck off.

What's it? Yeah, it's great, but it's also like, okay, so it's not the job. Yeah. I started writing a book that I got about 15 pages into, and then that was it.

I forgot about that. Yeah. It's what they call it, work in progress in the art community. Okay, that's what we're calling it.

Work in progress. Well, it's been a crazy time for all of us. I do feel like we're sort of kind of coming out with it now, it seems like. I feel like it should be knocking on the wood for this.

But we definitely, the restrictions are being lifted for the most part by March. So we'll still have to wear a mask, but you don't have to wear goggles anymore. So that's nice. How did you find the clientele during this time?

I think for the most part, people were better behaved than usual. Really? I found that. Yeah.

I mean, you still have your extra people and like your Karen's, but I feel like overall, most people would go out of the way to be like, thank you for everything you're doing. Like, thank you for checking our back pass. Thanks for, you know, making sure that people are following the rules. And I don't know, I don't know.

People tend to tip a little bit better even for the most part. So. Well, every time it's been sort of different. I mean, the most challenging, I guess, for us was when we opened up a patio and we were in a patio bar.

And so we literally had to build a satellite bar. So everything was socket-side. There was no running into the restaurant. So it was like a limited menu and we really leaned into the limitations.

And I did a cocktail menu that was small and kind of tongue-cheek with a lot of the old cabana cell at door drinks. And some people just didn't get it. They were just like, well, I just don't understand it. Or it's just a block of a crayon.

And it's like, well, we don't have crayon. People are not responding to that. This is a totally new thing for us. We're all trying to just survive here and create a space where we can actually do a service or whatever when we're late night.

You know, basement's be easy. Also, you can go to a vodka crayon anywhere. Sure, yeah. Anytime.

And your cocktails were so beautiful, delicious. It's like, why don't you trust something different? You can have a vodka crayon very to more than the next day. Yeah.

And I think you heard me say this night times and during the pandemic. It's like, much like getting wasted. This pandemic brought out just the extremes of everyone's personality. So if you're generally a good person and a good guest, then you became an even better one.

You can do even more understanding. You're taping even better. But if you're just a fucking asshole, then you just became a bigger asshole. Yeah.

I think that's kind of what happened a little bit there. So one of the interesting things about this podcast that we've, that Dan and I have always enjoyed is talking to people from all over the world who have gotten their start in so many different ways into the service industry because everybody's, like, the service industry brings all types of people. So this is a good contrast actually because I happen to know both of your origin stories. Matt, pretty much mirror his mind.

You can talk a little bit about how you got into it. Yeah. Well, I know about from Kingston. I got into it.

I'm not a great romantic story. I didn't do it in a necessity, in a survival school. I'd left school and moved out really early in the early 2000s and just was working for pubs. And it was a while after that.

And I was kind of floating back between different kitchens, like my service in kitchens and I was a while before I actually kind of fell in love with what I was doing for maybe my third restaurant that I was at. And at that point I was sort of moving out front a little bit because it was just, I mean, it was just better money. I was doing both. I was doing both.

Yeah. I was probably like my heart was in the kitchen. So you're doing like line cook stuff? Yeah.

I probably more. By years I have more in the back house than the front house. Oh, sure. Yeah.

And then that's really how I got attracted to the sort of modern cocktail bartending. And classic bar set work where volume dive, that stuff. And I love that. It was really fun, but it wasn't creative.

It wasn't really outlet. That way I was just sort of doing it and playing music and touring a little bit so it was a job that I could leave and come back to where they're not doing the same restaurant or different. And I feel like a lot of people get into the industry for that. Yeah.

So that's where you can travel at your family. I was in the family person so that was the same thing. I just took anything easier and you don't have to speak to me to remember. Yeah.

So it was all that. And then you know, volume bar and I worked with some pretty good chefs there and then when I moved to Vancouver I got into a pretty serious kitchen there. And that's where I really saw an old sort of brigade and a lot of modern technique. Well, propied a bit of a West.

Just for changer. No. I was just going to get the time of this one. It's always a relationship.

Yeah. That would do me 100 years. So how many times did you say why did you move up there and they didn't say well I followed a boy record? Yeah.

That's where I really, and I'm coming back. That's when I sort of, we'll see all these coffee bars. I was like I can do this. I don't have the classic, but I know if I marry sort of my dive volume bar with classic kitchen.

You know, I can marry the two things and do that. Yeah. And so a very different sort of scenario for you, Janine. Talk to us a little bit about how you started in the industry and where you came from.

Well, I was first a sandwich artist. We had a couple of sandwich artists on here already. It's a good training ground. You have one that's multitask and be really fast, especially if it's like, I don't even remember all the silly deals that they would have going on.

But this one that I worked was where the super center is now. So Highland and Fisher-Homan, that area. So busy busy busy. So sometimes there'd be like a line of the door.

And you just don't look. You don't even look. You're just like, okay, this person. What a world area.

I know. It's still in town. I was 19 because it was one of the few places I was open like. Yeah.

Which is short, just drunk. And you were one of the many drunk people waiting for the few rides. So yeah, so I started there. And then a few years later, I worked at Cravijos.

And that's where I first started to work, and I was like, oh, I like this. This is fun. And then took a few more years off. And then, wait, Rob, it's when I really was like, okay, I love this.

This is so fun. I've heard of the place where you were that I used to own that place. You didn't. Yeah.

It's true. I think we just crossed paths. You never read in your bio that you grew up in a night, too, which is sort of, you don't see a lot of men and knights slinging cocktails. No, you definitely don't.

My parents. I think it's a bonnet since it's dripping the drinks a lot. You mean that? It's true though.

It's so good. Yeah, so I clicked. That has happened to like challenges because I didn't throw up around who's at all, right? So like my parents didn't drink and other friends drank and my grandparents, like, they go to the side of any side.

No, I'm going to say that. Excuse me, either. I don't know if I still manage to get hammered by 12. Yeah, as a rule.

As a rule? Yeah, that's a rule. Yeah, that's true. of wine or beer or anything.

So I really had to learn, especially when I, wait, rabbit, we always joke every thal hardest spot to probably work in the city. But I was just like, all right, I'm gonna learn this. So I would go home and watch YouTube, where I would go to the liquor store and buy different bottles, so I knew that it tasted like. But yeah, so I never grew up with my dad drinking any kind of beer or seeing my mom drink cocktails with her friends.

So I didn't even tell I was 18. So, and it was a very slow, gradual evening. I was like, fully out of the mn nights, maybe by 2022. That's what obviously the wind or community in the church is, no, we got grape juice.

Let's not bullshit. So this was a funny, I sort of been paired in the middle of YouTube, because I grew up the exact same way as Matt, in Kingston, leaving home very early, falling into partying pretty early. And then, but also grew up hardcore religious with a Baptist background where my parents didn't drink or anything like that either. Now, I did find that I learned a lot from Rheumat Jink through other people's garages.

So maybe, maybe there's something else I could want. Yeah, yeah, like if you weren't happy to go over, you wouldn't want to go over. Fair. And I was finding interesting, like the varying degrees of how people get into the industry and so many different types of people end up here.

Would you guys both agree though, that it takes a certain kind of person to stick with it? I mean, let's say you're not even going to make it, because it's really big and a special kind of person to stick with it now. But the people who kind of make it in the services and the people who, do you feel like you can tell right away when someone's not going to make it? Yeah, you can tell if you're just showing up, just make some fast cash, maybe like a piece out and go travel for a bit or, yeah.

I mean, I think I can tell intuitively, because I manage enough places. I think we're the same, because I've done and we've interviewed together, or it's kind of more like this now, we just do a conversation. So we start up the last one pretty fast. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, we're getting really the surge of CVs, maybe we thought, but you can have a conversation, you can weigh better than common through a bunch of resumes. And we know, you know, so quickly, like you don't even need to talk about the industry necessarily and you kind of get an idea of how that person's going to gel. I think I can really get from the fucking resume anymore anyway, right? Because if you don't have experience, you're just going to lie about it, you're going to invent a bar that's in a different city that you quote unquote, you still live in.

Yeah, well, what I was saying, what your last interview? Well, I called that place and it was just, it went right to somebody, it's a personal voicemail. So I was like, yeah, because maybe this doesn't work. But yeah, the resume is always funny, because everybody, you read the so many, it's always just, you know, this like a clean bar, handled cash, they had the end of day reports, but a lot of it's like, yeah, no shit, like we, I know it like if you were, so it's a place, I know that's what you did.

But I'm not from the city, so like explain the place, explain the vibe, explain the clientele, explain the demographic and stuff like that. And then it's a fun, first of all, it's a fun, more fun read for us. And also like, you can actually sort of picture it as opposed to the more sense, you know, the chores that we all do. That's interesting, I think you brought that up.

What are some of the things that you guys think, if anyone was like listening to this, if someone's made it to episode 100 here and so it's not into the service industry, what kind of advice would you give to people who are trying to get into it as, to give them sort of a head start? Like, now you just mentioned something that you can do with their resumes at least, but like, is there something that people can be doing on their own to improve at a job before they even get it? Find and enter. Oh yeah?

Yeah, definitely, like find someone who's not like, well you know, I figured out like, that's what I entered the service industry, it was just like, figure it out yourself, like why don't you know, like, you know, so find someone who's gotten over themselves and doesn't have an ego and is like, here, like what do you need to know, that's our conversation, let's make some drinks together, let's have some fun and then read and then watch YouTube. Yeah, for me, like, kind of bar that, you know, hot the bar to me creating my new sister's stuff, work in a kitchen and right now we're in a good kitchen, it's not that hard to get in, it's a good time to land and that's been, definitely not, that's been, perhaps it's crazy. I think my biggest sort of lag up there tool and advantage in jumping on the bar, something that's been able to separate, you know, me from other stuff. I'll help you develop a flavor program, I'll stop, right?

And you guys had the Denver, Alex Stone, yeah, Alex Stone. Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what we want to call an area sort of, type bar and that's our background. And who is from, I'm going to plank right now because we're 100 episodes in, I'm old and we're drinking. Is that the guy that caught himself on fire in the kitchen?

Who? I can't remember. You know what, from the aviary in Chicago. Oh yeah, shoot.

I can't remember name right now, but as well, also like, you as Dodge did, the aviary, so it's like a, also a very culinary approach to how you do it. Yeah, sure, like modern, yeah. I apologize to the head bar tender from the aviary because that's something I can't remember name right now, but there's a hundred fucking episodes. Can we break on every single one?

Yeah, I'm getting pretty close. Yeah, I'm getting pretty close. Yeah, I'm getting pretty close. Also, I haven't heard half of what anyone said.

I mean, on these, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

One thing I kind of want to talk about too is, some of the, sort of the pet peeves that you guys experienced from customers over the years, we were talking about one the other night at Babylon, so I want to even run through that one and then he'll get a match in time to think about the game. One of the dates. That was a good one. And I said to you after it happened, I was just like, wow, I think that's the rudest person I've ever had to deal with here.

Like it was just like, besides myself. Well, yeah. I was like, you're kind of family, so we had to up with you. So this table three came in and they were lovely.

We were all having a good time and I had built them out. Everyone was like, so pleasant, thank you. Like everything was amazing. And the one guest comes up to the bar and kept sitting there because he always comes in.

I worked so a little lot during this point in the pandemic. So, a couple of them in and if I need help, he can like hop on floor. And this lady comes up to him and she's like, are you the owner? And he said, yes, I am.

And she's like, music sucks. I'm just right up. I'm literally going in an iron book. Like it was my music.

Yeah. So, apparently you're chasing up. Yeah. But it was like, okay, you're welcome to have your own opinion, honestly.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Just don't tell the convoy. But.

But. But. But she also complained about the level of the volume. I was like, okay, you could have just expressed both of these thoughts to me, maybe you'd have to say the music sucks, but you could have expressed the fact that the volume, maybe you thought it was too loud and maybe you'd express the fact that you didn't care for the music.

They for a while were the only table in there. So like, if you're the only table and something's not up to your, like, you know, it's more like, okay, let's have a conversation and maybe we can turn down the music or the heat or like whatever people want. But do not say anything for the whole hour and a half that you were here. And then at the very end, like.

It was going to be funny if you thought it was too quiet. Right? Yeah. I'm so sorry.

It's quiet. She's probably a little bit of a little bit encouraged by the end. But what you brought up afterwards, like this is the most annoying thing because it's like, I can't do anything to help you if you're walking out. Like if she had said from the get go, we'd be like, oh, we'd be my turn to music down.

We totally would have done it because they were the only table in here at that time. Now we wouldn't change the people just because you thought it sucked. But like, but we definitely would have turned them behind them. Like this whole notion of like throwing a review over your shoulder as you're walking out the door.

Or even worse, the people who don't say shit and then go home and post a shitty review about you. Which I think I'm the bigger thing online. Like that's the worst thing ever. Like if you had the plane express it, maybe I can do something about it.

Don't fuck it. We were having so many conversations. So I think what you would have said to me, like, hey, if I'm music too loud or whatever. Like, anyways.

I'm pretty unappreciable. I review for her that I'll be posting later. What about you guys? Anything from the mind specifically that's right enough?

I mean, yeah, it's kind of asking somebody like what they want for Christmas. But I know that the biggest one for most of us is, if you can see that we're busy, you haven't been there or been to the bar before. You want to cocktail? Or fucking menu?

Yeah. Or look at the menu. Like how many people are like, you know, it's like, yes, we love creating drinks off menu, but we also spend a ton of time on the menu and change it quite a bit. So it's when people that come in, they don't even look at it.

And they're like, just make me whatever. I just hate. I hate you. Yeah.

And you're 60. You make puppins or drinks out and stuff like that. And it's like, just look at the menu. How can we hard on it?

And it's going to change in 60. You know? Like, check out the ones that don't like it. Yeah.

And a lot of people, they genuinely think they're like, this is what you love to do. I'm just letting you do your things. Sure. But yeah.

So I imagine that because we talked to, it's just actually working on a fact that I like playing, because it's reminding me of all the old episodes we had. We interviewed Josh Finley, who's an amazing dude, who runs Bartender Atlas. And that's a site everybody should check out the website. And Bartender Atlas on Instagram.

And he was saying that he makes a point of any time he goes to any bar. If they have a cocktail list, he makes a point of trying. Even if he doesn't even necessarily feel like a cocktail, he will try one of their cocktails, because he knows the words that went into it. And he's like, if it's shit, maybe he won't try another one.

But like, and maybe he'll go to a classic cocktail or a beer or whatever. But he figures they put the effort into it. He knows what goes into it. So at least you can do it.

Yeah. He's your cocktail. You can't bring a cocktail. That's not a good story either.

What's this also? A time thing. You're not going to get it fast. You were talking about Christmas present, like freezing when someone presents a present to you or something like that.

I don't know freezing when you're like, as deep in cocktails. And someone's like, I want something savory that doesn't have gin. This is like, watch your mind go blank. I mean, it's not this one that I have so many backpacks drinks.

That's kind of as long as you get a kind of scripted conversation. But just give me a spirit. OK, gin, is it's dry refreshing? Or do you want something bold and sweet or whatever?

So you can gather pretty quickly. And it's normally something maybe you can tweak it a little bit. But yeah, there's obviously people in the industry should know better. I mean, I don't know if you remember the four hour fee when I brought in my buddy who's a bartender who had maybe too many days of soap.

And she had to run it just open. And he was modding their dance drinks. And he was wasted. And I was like, do you hear?

I'm not taking it out. I'm like, OK. I'm a specific one where he was just like, I can't remember what cocktail you ordered that had like a heated scot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he didn't miss it. But it wasn't that. And he was like, well, it's not vlogable. It should be like, because that was what they used at the bar that he worked at.

I'm like, I missed a Peter Scott who's going to taste like a Mr. Dean. But what you'd dance, think back to the year of like days behind the wood at Revolution. What are some of the things I used to drive you in that?

People who'd hammer out the guy club. People would hammer on the fucking bar. So we did a lot of shidiots. Do you ever have the guys who weighed the money?

Yeah. Yeah, fucking times after everyone paid with cash, still. Yeah, yeah, I couldn't pay with cash. People who weighed the way they had on the bar.

I used to stop service right in the middle of it. And I would just go, hey, is everybody cool? This guy is clearly indicating he's more important than you. And he needs to get his drinks faster.

So are you guys all good if I serve him first? Yeah. That was a good way guys. Get that guy to skulk off you with a different bar.

Yeah. So, no, I don't think you have to. I've heard that. Sorry.

I've heard that. I've heard that. I've heard a server. I worked with a table and he goes like, let's get a quarter of light.

And she's like, we don't have a quarter of a year. He's like, oh, what's the closest thing I can get? He's like, well, I can put a penny in your soda water. He's like, oh, he needs more quick-witted stuff.

Yeah. What about for you? Oh, I saw many. That was the waving of the money was a big one.

The other thing I thought was when somebody would like, I mean, they'd be waiting for me deep. Sometimes they're waiting 15 minutes before they get to the bar to place the order. And then they have no fucking clue what they want. And then they're asking all their friends what they want.

And so you're just saying they're waiting, meanwhile, there's a million other people waiting. You serve them. And by the time you get all the drinks back, I'll go if they all want different shots. They want five shots, but they're all different.

And they all are paying for their own little family. And then you get back to them to try and get them, you know, and they've already turned their back at our dancing. And so they're like, oh, stop. I thought I could hate a working nightclub.

So I used to call it a deathlight million course. And then I'd say, oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's a time capsule.

Like a culture that hasn't changed. Like it's just from what I see. I never really went out because I was a pub guy from the time I was 16. But I thought you worked in a club.

Not a club, but a volume cell bar, like in a university, you know, younger stuff. We're definitely too many tall cans and schooners of beer and drop shots and all that stuff. Yeah. Right.

You know what else I hated was what I still hate to this day is like when you walk up to a table. And I do understand why people do this, but it drives me that's when people go, but what do you recommend? And I'm like, I just make it. No fucking clue.

I still want that line. We just met. We're just going to know each other here. I don't know what you like, what you don't like.

I don't know what you're allergic to. And inevitably, every time I've recommended something to somebody, they don't get it. So they don't order it. Like, I'll be like, well, my three favorite things on the menu are this, this, this, this.

It'll be great. I'll have that. You know, like, you know, that one drives me nuts. Like, just, how do you not know what you want?

Yeah. And why do you think I know what you want? Exactly. So what do you guys think about like going forward?

Like, we're having nightclubs there for a second. Like, what is the, what's the problem? Those are the nightclubs these days. I know the restrictions have been lifted.

Eventually things have to get back to normal. Are you guys feeling optimistic about the future of the service industry? Well, that was, that was tandem sports. This is what we need to do, Jeff.

I mean, I'm just generally not an optimist. So I'm not, I've been, I've been wrong. Every prediction I've made, you know, as far as... Another pandemic?

Yeah. Like, oh, we're not going to go in a lockdown. Another one. You know, like, I kind of, I kind of keep quiet on those now.

Yeah, I mean, of course. The industry's going to survive in independent places. But, you know, locally it's like, you know, not being from Kitchener. Moving here.

You know, I just realized a few weeks ago I've been living in Kitchener longer in pandemic than not. Wow. Yeah. So, but I did...

What do you want to understand your pandemic? Yeah. But I did, you're going to have to be down town and really see the sort of excitement around it. You know, it was like you kept and then, and then a bunch of other restaurants.

Like, you were excited about what was happening and it was infectious. So coming from Kingston where it's established at downtown with restaurants. But it's very old and there are a lot of restaurants here that, you know, I just didn't see there. A lot of, especially on the bar front.

Crafting. You know, the cocktails and stuff like that. I don't know if that's the more, because of its proximity to Toronto, whatever. Yeah.

So, I can not feel that. And then, but it wasn't at the point where I think it could really sustain the blow from the pandemic. So, it really feels like that two step forward, ten steps back. And it's less for you, but you know, you see these condos coming up and it's like...

People are coming. The condos are like a fucking no way. This isn't the desert right now. Yeah.

It's like the opposite of it. If you build it, they'll come. It's like, we don't know where you're going to build it. What do you mean, how do you feel?

I think it's more often it's in the two of you. It's fine. Yeah. Definitely.

It's a little bit more. Sure. But I do feel like we've just lost so many good people. And if we do get back to somewhat of a normal, I think it's going to be tough.

It's going to be a hustle. There's going to be a lot of training, but for sure. Like, basically, why do you guys feel the same thing? I know you have because I'm working with you.

The people who are out there are generally the two places that I own that you guys run. No one's first stop on their journey in the industry. You've got to have some skills already to work at a place like either of these spots. But we don't have that luxury anymore.

Now you're hiring people who essentially have zero experience or are fresh off one rounded experience at like a gravity hose or a Kelsey's or Eastside Narrows. And we've got to scoop them up because people aren't out there. I feel like the future is going to be a lot of fucking hard training. Yeah.

If you get the right person, it's fine. They'll do education at home on their own. But if you get someone who's just like, I want to make good cash and peace out, it's going to be hard, right? I want the mystic, but I also think it's going to be tough when you need to have a full staff again.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's coming soon because summers on the way, that means bad roads, more. Staff needed, etc.

You guys think that a lot of people might not go in as much anymore just because they can learn to make more cocktails at home or just want to pick up their drinks or be yourself. I think it works well as much because maybe in their group of friends, some of them have two vaccines and maybe some of them have none or one. So it's way easier for them to all get together if they get together at someone's house. Plus everyone was doing home renovations during work for sure, the first lockdown, even the second one.

So everyone has a cool new patio or basement, whatever. And then you can have everyone over. No one's watching you at your house and asking people about it. I think it's going to take a little bit of time, honestly, for people to fully come back out.

People will happen, people get bored and whatever. But I did worry at first when we were like fucking pivot. So I was like, this is like that thing where the magician teaches people the trick and then all of a sudden in the magic show. They still can't do the trick though.

You're not going to be able to put up the same quality or maybe the certain drinks that you've got to start taking your home bar. You can put the time into it or whatever. But so much for our job is repetition and muscle memory. There's no way you're going to put out some of the more complicated drinks.

It's going to be done in that many times. Or you can have the well-stocked back bar. I don't think that many people have that. I think for me it's more just the social habit.

That's what I guess going back to the lockdown. I was really shy growing up and I had done this lockdown easy. It was an injury, but then I didn't realize how much of the habit I had of because of my job. I had to be social.

So that took a while. I think for a lot of people. And then anything that was broken. It's just going to take a lot of people to swing your thing.

You have to get things to comfort. There's a lot less eye contact. I'm noticing how the bar is going. People are going out and they're just going out.

People don't really know how to socialize anymore. I've talked to a lot of people, private conversations in the industry. I have crazy anxiety coming back. Shaky hands dropping, cropping up drinks.

Every of those first few shifts are like, you know, you need to tell them. I carry a straight of wine. A group of people confidently, the huge thing is not that I'm sure the customers have someone who's going into busy places. Well, I've had some customer stories.

I've had a show. I've had people who will ask. Sometimes every time I come over. I didn't say anything when it happened, but I talked to some friends about it.

Maybe they were doing it for me or maybe they were doing it just because they were still hesitant about being out. It was like, oh, okay. They stopped eating, stopped drinking, put their mask on. I'm just like, oh, this can't be good times for you.

I was just like, okay, if I stay here, this is where they stop and put their mask on. So if I stay this far back, then they're fine with it. If I was just doing a pop-by like, how's everything, tasting, whatever, I would just say back further. So they seem to be more comfortable.

But last year, two years ago, I was working at a repeating market, and it was after the very first lockdown. So the first time restaurants and bars had opened since the lockdown, and we were serving on the patio, and I was dropping off food to a table. And there was a lovely young man who pretty much went horizontal when I dropped off the food, and I was just like, oh, I'm so sorry. You came out of a fucking restaurant, though.

Why did you find somebody who had to bring your food? If you're just scared for a human being to get that close to you, you should eat it. Yeah, and also like you're outside, and I'm wearing a mask, and I can't remember if he was or was it. Little do they know what they used to do with their food and drinks, pre-penetries?

True, people were terrified to get their mail from the super mailbox. So it's not quite the pandemic where people were like, fucking washing their groceries when they got home. Yeah, and they're forcing you to get them? Yeah, yeah.

We're touching them. Sure. Honestly, that is the true fucking rocky story of this fucking pandemic, is that bars and restaurants still exist after there was a time where people sanitize their own fucking groceries. You were still willing to come out to a bar restaurant and have another human being served as shit.

I served at a table the other day where they were talking about how they used to do that, and I was like, wow, this must be a huge step for you. You're out in a bar. I can't imagine what you've gone through to get to this point. Yeah, but I mean, thank God they are.

Yeah, for sure. But I was just like, oh my God. First of all, we usually start eating our food like in the car the way home. I can't imagine waiting until you get home, cleaning it.

True. I think part of it is like, the one reason my business was foolproof was because people would be around other people. But the thing that worries me sometimes is that I was talking to a friend of ours who has been on the show and I want to help him because actually he won't care. He had a good time, so it was one of the early episodes, the early interviews on the show.

He was saying how Friday night used to be at his house, like, what are we going to do tonight? And then two years of pandemic later it was like Friday night, what's on Netflix? So people have learned to stay home and be okay making their own dinner and drinking for a lot cheaper, let's be honest. The business wasn't made on cheap drinks.

So, well, that's your student bar. The bars have always got the good ones, the bars restaurants have always been operated with the high standard of social distancing and that sort of thing. I think people maybe think about where they go a bit more, but eventually the proximity stuff kind of settles down as far as standing shoulder to shoulder. I was never afraid to go to the restaurants I went to before because I know how they operate.

You think that there's this leads to us needing to elevate our game as far as a curated experience for people. We have to give people more of a reason because, let's be honest, minimum wage also went up in Ontario recently and for so for servers which is a good thing. But any time, speaking of the owners, anytime we're getting less people, we're paying more for the stuff that we have to buy, groceries have gone up, right? And now we're paying more for the labor.

Plus, like what you said, people may also want to go out but they want, if they're going to go out they want it to be a little bit more special. Does that make us force us to elevate our game as far as curating experience for it? Does it mean that we have to, like, be working answer hard to have a better menu, a better cocktail, like whatever? Does it mean we have to provide more entertainment?

And hopefully, I guess, like, elevating any competition is good. Except for fastest. No, I know. Of course.

That would be a silver lining. I don't know if that, I mean, if we'll see that necessarily, like, I mean, I always look at that as just a product of competition, you know. Like, you think that people are eventually just going to come out no matter what because of the idea? Yeah, I don't think that can change, you know, as people will go back to what they're, what they do naturally as long as they feel safe.

So it really depends, I mean, obviously, viruses going anywhere. So, I mean, that's the main thing but. Can I do that first? The beauty of both of these spots is that they're very, like, separated.

Definitely a little. Oh, okay. So, sugar run for those of you who've been, is very spaced out. Like, I feel like when it was like the, like, spacer table was six feet apart.

That was already kind of like naturally done within your bar. Yeah, it was really weird. I was just like, oh wow, like, this bar was built for the pandemic. I was like, the fact that it was underground.

And it hit. Yeah, exactly. That was good. But like, that whole layout was perfect.

Like, you were already spaced away from people and same with Babylon sisters. Basically, there's three separate rooms. Right. So you can close doors, you can open doors and it's all like fairly spaced out.

So that's definitely where we're doing our favor. Like, I feel like a lot of people who come in here and are like, oh, like, we're like, so far apart from the next table, you know, so. Not by design of how the pre-pandemic, we've actually run, we've been shoulder to shoulder. Yeah, so, I mean, as far as the bottom line goes, this is, this is, what places are actually sustainable, you know, whether or not there's breathing room to spread people out, are these, that's sustainable for the low margins, you know, the narrow margins of the.

That's one thing that I can personally speak to is definitely not. Like, you, the only reason that any of these businesses have made it is because of government subsidies. And let me just say, our fucking federal government is getting a lot of backlash right now. This isn't a political show.

I'm like, otherwise, they do a lot of ranting about anti-vaxxers in previous episodes if you really want to hear my opinion on that. But I will say, like, you can say whatever you want about the federal government, not one of these, unless you're like a massive chain restaurant, not one of these fucking small independent bars and restaurants would have survived. And a lot of them still didn't, without the subsidies that our federal government has provided to us, and that's rent and wage subsidy, and then grants and no interest loans, all of, and low interest loans, like, this is what's kept the industry alive. So, you know, like, I'm not personally willing to park my truck in front of a border of business because of, because of some sort of angst against what the government has done.