E102 Matt Basile

This week's guest is celebrity chef Matt Vasile. Matt is the founder of the Toronto-based street food brand, The Nell Gastros. Matt was the host of internationally aired reality TV shows Rebel Without a Kitchen and the show Fridge Wars. And Matt is also the author of the best selling cookbooks, street food diaries, and Dutch life.

We talk about his background in advertising and how this had a profound impact in the early success of his career. Matt talks about the importance of developing a good idea and narrative and how this helps drop people into your business. We also talk with Matt about how after a decade plus of working on Stop, Matt has finally realized that bringing a work-life ballad into play, working hard and being smart, allows him to be the best version of himself. And we finish off the interview with Matt Drop in a few hints of his upcoming project.

It's another terrific episode that you're definitely going to enjoy. And we're back with another episode of the industry podcast. My name's Kip. This is Dan.

What's going on with you, buddy? Much just hanging out with you. Always, no, always with you. Same, just being awesome.

Yeah, things are good. Things are reopening and we're back to full capacity, of course. The vaccine mandates have been dropped. So as we're recording this today, that'll happen this weekend, I guess.

Or tomorrow. Tomorrow, yeah, yesterday, February the 28th, so much first. Well, we'll be interested to see what kind of effect that has on. I'm just a little nervous that there's some people who just feel safer than knowing that everybody in there has been vaccinated.

So it'll be interesting to see how that, what kind of effect that has, but hopefully not too negative. I'm guessing your bar is not going to attract the crappy Joe crowd. So that's true. That's true.

We provide a safe environment of both of my spots. So come on by, should a run downtown Kitchener Babylon Sisters, up down Waterloo. So we have an amazing guest for today's podcast, Matt de Sile. We'll be joining us shortly.

I'm sure you're all any listener here is aware of who he is. So we're looking forward to talking to him shortly. If you like the show and you want to support us, the best way you can do that is to subscribe, rate and review. You can get it obviously work.

I don't need to tell you where you get it. You're fucking listening to it right now. Yeah. Okay.

So and also, punch that subscribe button. If you want to be on the show, you can DM us at the industry podcast on Instagram or you can email us at info at the industry podcast dot club. And as always, all those likes we talked about will be in the show notes. Yes.

And again, big shout out to zakana at zakana.co for the artwork he does for our Instagram page. Okay. So enough of us taking around here. Let's just get to work here.

Chef Matt de Sile is with us. How are you chef? I'm fantastic. How are you guys?

Good. Yes. Good. It's going to be expected.

I feel like we're kind of finding come out of this COVID nonsense or at least hopefully I feel like to be knocking on a million people's wood right now. I also feel like we've said this like 13 times right now. This is the end of it. Right.

I know it's the end of it. Well, at some point, like we're just going to have to learn a little bit. So hopefully that's that's the point we're at now. So obviously there's a lot we can talk to you about here.

So let's just start sort of at the beginning and kind of give our listeners a little run down of how you got to where you are today sort of throughout the industry, what made you choose a career in the service industry and how you sort of transition to see more of a media presence. Well, to be honest, it only happened because I grew up working in butcher shops. I'm Italian, Canadian food was just a huge part of my DNA, but I never saw food as my career path. I went to university.

I got an English degree. I went to college. I got a job in advertising. I was a writer.

Like that's what I actually thought was my trajectory. But I love food and food was always in the kind of the backdrop. And I remember in 2008 when the recession hit, ad agencies were laying off staff like left, right and center, especially if you have like an automotive client who was like just known that you were going to be making cuts and I got laid off. But like I didn't even really care.

I was like, cool, I'm going to take the summer off. I was like, I was like, I'm living with my mom's base. So I'm like, it's not a big deal. But what really impacted me though, during that was like watching people who rule or get laid off and just like the emotional suck that was on their faces like when that was happening.

Like I wasn't in the room. I don't know. I just in talking to them afterwards, like just being like, wow, like it hit me very differently than I hit you. And it was actually at that point where I said that I wanted to be an entrepreneur.

I want to be self employed. And that was actually my driving force. It wasn't because I had a lifelong dream to be a chef. It was that I had set out a goal for myself that by 30, I was going to be my own boss and I did it by 26.

So I was really, really stoked about that. I didn't get there till I think 36 or older, maybe even. Fuck, I don't even want to talk about it. It's looking for you.

I don't get into a dangerous game of who's how old? Yeah. Yeah. I'm coming up on 15 now, believe it or not.

So that's it took me to later in life to sort of become my own boss. But okay, so what was your first sort of venture? Well, so I started putting together business plan for a sandwich shop. That was what I wanted to do.

And I was using my advertising brain to conceptualize what that would look like. And I landed on a sandwich shop called Fidel Daskar. So that was kind of where I was like, oh, this is clever. Like I could do that.

Like that's cool. And that's what I spent like the better part of eight months, like really doing research, developed the branding under I had kind of site locations in mind, put together the business plan, the marketing strategy, the sales, the numbers of projections, went into the bank, did my old pitch, and I got rejected in about 48 seconds. Yeah. They were like, oh, so what equity do you have?

What assets do you have? In fact, what experience do you have? The answer is the answer is none to all those things. So I got rejected pretty quickly.

So at this point, I was still working my job and I was like, you know what, like I'm super bummed out by this. I guess this is just going to be like the idea I had in my life that will never actually come to fruition. And I was at a party maybe two or three weeks later in the beaches, which is like the east end of trial and they had a big open concept kitchen. They were going to work pizza at this party.

And there was a DJ booth and there was like a live bar. Like it was a lot of music industry people at this thing. One of the guys was like, yo, Matt, like we're going to order pizza. But he's like, what if I give you money?

Do you want to just cook? I was like, yeah, man, totally I'll do that. Like I was half in the bag. I'm like, yeah.

So I started cooking. And then do you know the band Len, that song's the only sunshine? Yeah. I was there.

That's funny. Jumps goes through. No, we had one of our original guests on the show used to tour with Len. So that's funny that I was trying to get time to try to get time to these things.

But yeah, Len's making a comeback. So the guy from Len was like, he started cooking along next to me. I was like, cool, so dinner thing. And everyone like five people started watching and then 10 people started watching and then like 20 people gathered around and then pretty much everyone at the party was gathered around the kitchen.

Then like we're making food and putting it out and everyone's enjoying it and having a good time. And I was like, that's the business model. You know, like if you can't open something up, it's more experiential in nature. It's something that you don't necessarily have a door for or sign for, but it allows you to kind of connect with people on face value.

That was the original kind of idea that I had in that moment. It ended up materializing into what we all kind of refer to as like the pop up now. But I was doing it like 11 years ago when it was like, it was kind of crazy. They'll be like, hey, you know, this is wild.

So I quit my job and I started selling sandwiches off of tables illegally driving from event to event selling them. And you know, it is what it is like I know what I was doing, but I just knew I had a good idea. I knew I was going to work hard and I was working a very dangerous amount of hours to get to that point. I was actually giving a friend of mine free labor at his butcher shop in order to have kitchen space to cook out of to then go do these events.

So it was pretty wild. But then as much of an investment in time and pain and suffering as it was in the beginning, very quickly, I started to see not so much the financial rewards, but we started to see how quickly things were escalating for me from a brand standpoint. Like people were really captivated by what we were doing. Again, because it was 11 years ago, it wasn't a lot like that at the time.

It was very underground, which now it's like people do it all the time. It's great. I love to see how it's evolved so much. But from there, you know, we launched our first food truck and then.

They got my first TV show kind of because my life was so weird. They were like, well, we guys will follow you the camera and then after that we opened my first restaurant and then did a cookbook and then did a second food truck and a second cookbook and a second show and it just they just kept evolving and growing from there naturally. And the first person to say it's like, you know, that's the that's the short end of it and it sounds very like fast rise. I mean, you know, but the other side of it is the sheer number of hours I put in and sacrifices I've made and relationships have ruined and all the other things that.

And just become not a unfortunately, I've taken a backseat to developing this career, but 11 years later, I feel like I have a lot more of a handle on more parts of my life. So I'm able to kind of grow the way I want to grow versus feeling like I have to grow in certain ways. Mm hmm. Yeah.

I was wondering, when you first started out, how long was it until you were like profitable or able to pay the rent and whatnot? Like it was a couple of years. I wasn't like, I had money saved up. Okay.

So I think everything that I made was going back into the company immediately. It probably wasn't until I wasn't making money until my first summer doing these events because then we were just doing larger scale events. So I remember like the first time I did Toronto beer festival. So it would have been like June June 2012, I guess or 2011, something like for July 2011.

I remember just my pockets were like filled with just cash. I was like, oh my God, I'm ready. It was like 15 grand and I had like 45 straight hours, but I would say like I was starting to make money and by money, I don't mean like a living. I mean, like I was actually just making it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I would say it was about July of that year. And that's also a coincidence.

Not only when we launched our food truck. So just when the operation allowed me to do more volume and because I was doing literally everything, the labor was quite low though. So then the more I started to hire more people and really grow things, I was like, oh my God, this got so much. What's going on?

Okay. So I had a couple questions back in up a little bit. So when you're talking about the original ideas, it's kind of interesting to me because, like you said, pop ups are sort of everywhere now. But at the time, 11 years ago, nobody really knew what the fuck up pop up was, right?

So what you've developed in this situation is not so much like a business as much as a concept almost, right? Like you're kind of like, okay, but what if like what if I don't need a brick and mortar spot to sell my food? And like, so you're almost developing a concept. And I'm sort of interested in like how you feel your advertising background helped develop that because you had a leg up on knowing how to market, I would imagine.

You know what? You absolutely nailed it. I actually think that the reason I was able to have any amount of success was because of my background and I was thinking about it. Like, I had never worked in a restaurant setting prior to do running my own.

So I worked in butcher shops. I'd done the breakfast shift at my university. That's not like any amount of experience that I was qualified to do this. But what I did know that I had was an interesting idea and people naturally gravitate towards good ideas.

I think there's there's something about like, if you take any show that either has a strong passionate following or a show that doesn't, you could probably boil it down to like the narrative that's being told and the story that's being told. And I think being a storyteller and getting people to buy into the idea made the journey to selling food a little bit more tangible, a little easier. And it was also not the rise of the rise of social media, but the I was like, you know, Twitter was really like so pretty new. Like, I think people were still trying to figure out how it was working.

And it was very easy to engage with 100 200 300 400 people in about 10 minutes. So when you know, and now the irony is I can't have last time even opened up my Twitter app. So it's like, it's so funny how it was such a necessary tool in those early days to be able to connect people. And then I was like, literally just telling my friends and family when I was doing it.

And they all thought I was crazy. So a lot of them came to support me because they probably felt that. They were like, I quit his job selling sandwiches off the table. We should go buy a $5 sandwich off of Matt.

He's a good guy. So, but all that. And I think I remember too, like when I was doing even my first event, like we had quite a turnout and people that like, there was like people, you know, there was people that know you, but then there's like, no, you know, you know, you. Because they've done you forever.

So they only show up like later. And they're like, I don't know. Somebody's like, what the hell's going on here, Matt? Like, who are all these people?

Like, what is happening? And I had no response for it. It was just sometimes it still catches me off guard, like how life has unfolded in the last 10 years, you know, and it really happened so quickly too. Like, I gligged in here.

We are 10, 11 years later talking about it in various kind of ways, but I think, you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

He is what's everything. Well, but it's funny, like, just hearing you talk, I feel like I've listened to so many people who become big successes say sort of the same formula. If you can figure out hard work and how to market that hard work, then that's kind of the formula for success. Yeah.

It's so funny too, because then those same people will then tell you about all the things that they've missed out on simultaneously. Right. Because there is something to be like, you know, I was raised by, you know, my parents, but then also my Italian grandparents. And there's something about that old school European work ethic that is just ingrained in you, to a point where you almost don't know how not to operate that way.

And I think I probably could have benefited from having a little bit more balance in the early years because I wasn't even really processing or thinking as I was doing things. I was just on energy mode, energy mode and just trying to like keep up and keep things going. I probably could have made better decisions if I was doing less things. However, it was because I was working so hard that people were just forced to pay attention.

Like one point people actually thought I like between. There's got to be a sec. There's no way he's sleeping. And I just wasn't sleeping.

I remember I'll never forget this. The wrong the Royal Ontario Museum was did these events called Friday Night Live at the ROM. And on my way to the first event for them, I got into a serious car accident. I got I got I got T bone and then I T bone somebody.

I remember just getting out of the car, directing traffic, moving the cars out of the way. I gave everyone my number of my insurance and I go to work. I'll be back and we'll deal with this. I drove to the Rob and my car was bent to the app like a taco and a piece of charcoal holding my door closed.

I don't know why I'm in this, but this is not like reality, right? Like you work to the point where you get to a place and like I said, it's only now in retrospect years later. I'm like, that seems stupid. It's like, well, I was like, I could be honest.

I have to. Did this accident happen? Because you were actually making a sandwich while you were driving? To be honest, they probably happened because I was on such a little sleep.

Yeah. I'm not saying I fell asleep at the wheel, but I wasn't processing life. I was just like, got to go. No, I know.

Like you almost go into like I've been that overtired as well driving away. Going to that mode where you're not even you're sort of out of your body almost a little bit. Yeah. That's like the fairest way to put it.

It's like an everybody to a moment. It's like, so when you're like me driving that car. So when you're getting all these gigs, though, to be getting like, obviously you got your name out there. You knew how you had a marketing strategy, but like just for the sort of nitty gritty of it, like how are you booking the gig at the ROM or the beer festival?

Is that just like cold calling people or did you find a network of and once you're in the network, you kind of get invited? I'm so fortunate that in the beginning, it was just me being like, hey, I have an idea and I teach people the idea and they'd be like, yeah, that sounds a good great idea. Like come on in like what's the worst that could happen. Right.

And that was kind of the, you know, it was called like the simple ask, right? Like what was the worst case scenario in a lot of those moments like for someone to one partner. They're like, yeah, the downside's pretty low for us. Like cool.

Like right now, I remember like, like, so when the wrong that came to me directly, like they then they start reaching out, right? Because as people and as organizations started to see that I was getting one media attention, it actually became a benefit to them to be like, you know, let's also see if we can be a part of this guy's growth. And I remember one of my biggest meetings that I was so like Jones for, I had a meeting at Seamwiswah Brewery because we were, I was going to pitch them on setting up inside the brewery for like J's games and stuff, like in between J's games. And so I had this whole like pitch deck ready to go, I get to the meeting and they're like, Oh, when you want to start, I was like, wait, we're being at the meeting.

Yeah, what's going on? Like, yeah, like we checked up on you, you know, everyone seems pretty happy with you. Like just be your guys and that's it. Well, it's funny though, how much is just like asking the question though, right?

Like, because I found out a lot during business as well, like it never hurts to ask. Like if you don't care about people telling you to fuck off, then like you can ask for anything. Yeah. I actually think that's such an important advice to kick people is don't be afraid to be told to fuck off because then all of a sudden, like fear can be a really debilitating thing, right?

Like it can really stop you from what you should be doing or what you could be doing. And I don't know why I wasn't afraid of failing. And I think because like again, what was my worst case scenario? I just go back to work and advertise.

Like, you know, that was pretty much what I was just telling myself and 10 things were moving so quickly at this point that I felt like I was I was on to something and you just kind of know sometimes, like if it was the opposite and I'm doing all this work and I'm getting no attention and no one gives a shit for sandwiches a day, like, then I could be like, all right, maybe I should back it up. But it was going in the right direction. It was definitely worth continuing to see if this was where I should be putting my time and energy. Okay.

So what question I have to do and please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just interested because a million fucking people make sandwiches, right? So like, what is what do you think put you sort of over the top and like making people interested in your in your product and your sandwiches? Is it like just as much quality as marketing or does it tilt one way or the other?

So the irony is my sandwiches or my food in general is just so much better because I've had so much years like I did I was completely self taught then but I completely self taught now, but it's been 11 years of owning and cooking and doing all this stuff on my own where I've put in forget about the 10,000 hours I put in like 10 million hours now. So if I was actually doing the food I did today 11 years ago, I'd probably be in an even better position. So I actually don't think it was my food that was that was why I'm telling you this. I don't think it was my food that was getting people interested.

Maybe my ideas like I had some interesting combinations here and there. I was I was willing to like try certain things that other people weren't doing, but I really think what people were becoming grounded was was the story and the energy at these events. So it didn't matter if I was by myself at a table or a big event with like thousands of people. I was always allowed as person at these events.

Like I you knew if I was working because I was just kind of so loud because I was having a good time and maybe that's what people gravitate towards. Like it's kind of hard. It's kind of hard for someone to be like, well, this guy sucks. If he's having a good time.

Like I'm like, I'm like, I'm having a good time. So I think that's what people became gravitated towards. So the other thing, I guess we kind of hit the ground running over just like you had your idea and you just sort of went with it and you're like with hard work and marketing, I can make this happen. Then you're transitioning into doing like food trucks, et cetera, et cetera.

I know for instance, from my own experience, like the first bar that I opened, I was like, I want to open a fucking bar. Like I can do it. And then you run into all these things like that. You have no idea about like with permitting and with the city and whatever.

So talk a little bit about your learning curve there when especially moving towards the food truck idea. So the food truck was a natural next step in like my evolution, right? Because I was like, okay, well, I can still connect with people. It's still mobile in nature.

It felt like a natural next step from what I was already doing. So I remember someone was like, hey, you would probably if you are looking for food truck, I saw this food truck for sale behind this place. You should check it out. And that was it.

And I called up. I saw it and I'm like, turn it on. I drove it. I'm like, yeah, it's cool.

I just like after the fact was like the fire suppression system didn't work in it. The generator didn't work in it. Like I bought it. I bought it.

And I bought a total of it. But how do you know? Like that's a learning curve. Like, yeah, it's like you sound like you're a mechanic.

You know what I mean? Like, I mean, like, I can't even have been able to help you because like I would have needed like I didn't know that what the generator powers the thing. I didn't know what a fire suppression is. I just assumed everything worked in it.

Like, why does this guy sound like it doesn't work? Yeah. Well, I guess that was what like, yeah, like, so I definitely I bought it for 20 grand, which is so cheap, but then I probably had to put another double that into bringing it up to working. And because the truck was just so old, it felt like we were always trying to just make it work.

Like, I remember I went to public health to get it like approved. And this was like the last piece I needed to like make the truck happen. And they were like, where's your gray water go? I'm like, what the fuck is that?

They opened the door to where my plumbing was. And they're like, your pipe just goes into nothing. I got like, I got a water basin and I just put it on anything like, and they passed it. I don't know.

It actually wouldn't have passed now because since then there's a rule that your your gray water bin has to be 10% larger than your fire. And your fresh water. So that rule didn't actually exist back then, which is kind of interesting because like when I got the food truck, it was still quite like, there was a lot of gray area. Like people weren't entirely sure what was going on.

There was a process to getting approvals. It was actually quite extensive. I think I went back to the MLS office, like municipal licensing standards. I must have been back in line like seven times.

I remember the girls, all the girls were in the counter were like, today's the day, bro. You're getting your food. You get a truck. You get a no shit.

And the same thing for when I opened up my first restaurant, Lisa Maria. I didn't realize how little I knew about what I was doing until I opened up a restaurant. Like that was a huge learning curve. Yeah, I mean, I've obviously been through that as well.

And like, I mean, I know everything I worked in the service industry for 30 years, but like, and then I was like, okay, I'll get open to bar. I know how to do that. But I don't know the shit from the city and the fire department and all that stuff. Right.

That's the stuff that I think that people don't realize when you go start opening your own business. There's all this shit that like you don't have any clue about. No, I know. That's just it.

Right. Like you don't know what you don't know. And I definitely did not know. How to open up a restaurant.

I figured it out and I don't know how I figured it out or how we figured it out as a team as a group of people. But like I always tell people I was lucky enough to be busy enough to learn from my mistakes. Right. That makes sense.

No, that's not. Like I was able to at the very least make sales so that it didn't really, I was able to learn. And I was so proud. Like, you know, the irony is I did leave some room for about seven years.

So I unclean on Queen West, which was just a graveyard for restaurants for a while. They're like, you know, restaurants were really lucky if they were coming in for a year and lasting a year. So here I am first time restaurant owner, restaurant or, you know, self-taught chef never managed a team of 40 people before. But now all of a sudden we got trucks and catering and offsite QSRs.

And I'm like, what is happening? How is this going? And I was just lucky enough to be busy to learn from those mistakes. But I was so happy with the fact that the product that we had in me when I sold our last meal was so much better than the product we had when we first opened our doors.

And I actually think that is that's something that's never or never will be lost on you. So when you you mentioned earlier that you sort of got approached about your first TV show because they were just like, oh, this guy's doing crazy shit. We should move around the camera. So that was sort of like just kind of thrust upon you.

And but you obviously went for it. And like that must have been a learning curve as well. Like all of a sudden you're in front of a camera and like you seem like you're basically the same. Like I've watched a few of your YouTube videos and sometimes I do some preparation for the show.

But I do watch some of your YouTube shows and watch I kind of clip at the Netflix show and like you seem like the same guy like in person as you are on camera. Yeah, you know what? I'm definitely the same. I've been told that before.

So I should take out as a compliment. So thank you. Well, I mean, I'm not sure. I mentioned an asshole.

No. I know for a fact that I've probably been an asshole with certain times like I'm sure and you know, I think when you're not sleeping, you're never your best version of yourself. And I think people really need to understand that how little sleep I was getting in the beginning, how much changes happening simultaneously. And then all of a sudden I was like gifted my own TV show and the camera was stuck in my face all the time.

And I was running around like an idiot and I was like, oh my God, what has happened? And I don't even remember shooting the show sometimes like it was like did we should say that there was a camera the whole time like the whole time. So I mean, it was a lot but you just kind of I was very fortunate that like especially with like the one of the producers on the show. Her and I are still very good friends.

I actually consider like a sister to me. You have to have trust in those people because they are literally capturing your world and all they have to do is twist it like this. And it will look very different than the world that you wanted to be portrayed. So you really have to have a lot of trust in other people on the other side producing your shows and I did and you know, they were they were there was a lot of times where I put up a fight about things that were happening because they'd like want you to say something like I'm not saying that it makes me look so stupid and so amateur.

And I remember all night forget one time we were at a stand up. I was like late for my buddies engagement party and they were like Matt like we really need to say this line I'm like we'll be here all day. Yeah. I'm going to miss my buddies engagement party but I'm like if you think I'm saying I'm happy that I broke you and said I'm not because I'm like and that's really why I'm saying I was happy that I broke you and I'm not saying that pissed off.

Yeah. So I was really fortunate that they allowed me to kind of have that and now whenever I do TV, you know, it's not in the guys about being a show that's following my life. That's a very different kind of show that we have a camera that's called like follow the pot right. So I'm the pot.

Follow the pot. Let me show you into my world. So you have to be like really okay with really showing people how you react to like scenarios and there's a couple of episodes where I am sick to my stomach watching them because I can't believe I reacted with such anger or I reacted with such, you know, lack of experience or lack of leadership. Like I was just like, oh, that's not me.

I guess that is me. Fuck. So that's really hard. Like there was some it's a great way to do some self reflection.

Let me tell you watch on TV act like an idiot and you're like never going to do that again. That's a learning moment right there. But then I've been other. I've been lucky now that all these years later whenever I do TV people come to me and they're saying exactly like, Matt, we just want you to be you because we know that you know you should grow an axe.

You should just going to do your thing. I'm like, yeah, that's how it's going to be. So I've been I've been really lucky. Like, you know, it's been, I think the last really big major TV thing I did was right before COVID had I did the show for her CBC called fridge wars and you know, I was friends with became friends like all the production team and all this sound.

I like to like everyone's working, you know, so I try and meet everyone on the crew. I go around, introduce myself and make sure that like I'm not giving them what they need to do their jobs properly because that's the other thing to you. Right. They're working right.

They're not just there for me. They're there for their their own lives. So I'm like, if I'm not giving you what you need to do your job, you need to let me know because I want to make sure it's the best product possible. And I think just having that kind of approach has made me really, you know, like I have a good relationship to everyone I've done TV with.

It really does sound like your whole career is sort of just been like jumping into something learning from it and then doing better the next time, which is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. But that's life, right? That's like life. Like that's like a mirror in a life.

But I mean, that's how we all learn. And it's just but the difference between like me doing it and you doing it is you're doing it with a camera stuck in front of your face. Like I can imagine the pressure. Yeah.

Especially season one of the show because season two is I mean season two is difficult for a different reason because it was now a travel version of that idea. So I was now a first time restaurant owner. I'd only been open for four months. I've got a food truck going out.

But even my I went from being at every event that I ever did and never not doing event and not being there. So now having a restaurant operating after four months and me not being there, having a food truck operating after however long I've been doing it and me not being there. You know, it was it was really tough. Like I think I remember talking to Mark and a few and while I was doing it and he's like what you're doing right now is probably one of the toughest things you'll ever do in your career because you're just you're putting a lot of faith in people's hands.

And that's and honestly, some of the I'd always come back like I do two weeks of filming on two weeks off two weeks off and the two weeks that came back was always the two weeks I was gone. Right. Like they'd be like, I'm going to get a line from over. Yeah, one second.

You're fucking fired. Or. Or. Yeah.

Really, really stressed. And I actually think because the shooting for the shooting get renewed for third season and I think the show was impacted by my lack of focus because I had so many things going on. It was a good show, but season one was better. And I think the reason why I wasn't the best version of myself doing it, because I had too many things on my plate and too many things on my mind.

I was also reading my first cookbook at the same time. So I thought the airport and Oregon, but I'm like chapter two, like just type in a way like I had very little time for myself and that's not I wore it as a badge of honor back then. Look how busy I am. Right.

Yeah. You know, experience. I'm just not a planet. And then you realize that sucks.

You spend mostly like trying to be as like not busy as possible. But you know what I mean? Like the goal is, everyone's goal is somewhere on a beach with nothing to do. And but then so we kind of.

Yeah, we trick ourselves into thinking that goal. If I can tell people how busy I am, then it makes it's a weird thing that people have where they feel like telling people how busy they are or being that busy is is like you said, like a badge of honor, but really it's just stressing you the fuck up. That and it's like, like, Hey, man, what'd you say? Oh, you know, I got up hung out.

Saw a game. Well, we'd use the outside before or. I'm frightened. I'm not going to check out.

I was in nine meetings. I sold it like it was like it was a lot. So, you know, I don't know. I don't know.

Like, again, I felt like though, here's my rationale and I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm saying this is my Russia because I was self taught because because I'm because this trajectory was happening so quickly. I felt the need to justify my success. And the only way I could do that was to let people know that I was, I was for real.

I wasn't just a TV show. I was like, I was here because I was working my ass off and then I was I was willing to work anyone. I would work anyone at the table. You know, so I think I'm not saying that's healthy.

I'm saying I think that's where my head was at because a lot of people in the industry were really looking at me like the fuck's this kid just showing up one day and all of a sudden, you know, that's this is got a TV show and he's got this is got that. Meanwhile, they didn't know how much I was putting like how much work I was putting into all those different projects and that was like my rationale and I'm just going to prove legitimacy by just, you know, working my absolute ass off. That makes a lot of sense actually because I could yeah, yeah, because you did sort of come out of it added from and I know people in the service industry are especially on the chef side of it are very territorial about well I went to this school and I achieved this certificate or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, like, I don't know. I don't know. So when you went to the cookbooks, you're like, you said previously, like you always sort of interested in writing. You thought that that's what you were going to do maybe at one point.

So that seems like a more natural transition for you and you're already succeeding in the world of cooking. So talk to me a little bit about how you jumped into the world of writing after doing TV. Well, so it goes back to actually something else you said to you, which was my first book was a hot mess and my second book was much better. But people should buy both people should buy both.

And then compared to one thing that people do say is when they read the book, like I actually read the words, they can hear me narrating it too. Like I wrote it in my style and I have a very quirky I was raised on science. You know, I've got that like irreverent kind of sense of humor. Even the title chapters are kind of very me driven.

It was done through paying and publishing. So it was like a real publisher and they approached us through the because of the show and obviously that's a really easy way to pay back off things. So that makes sense too. So like there was a travel component to the book.

But again, a cookbook really needs focus to do it properly. And I was so far from focused. I was like, okay, we'll shoot 19 recipes today and then for again in three months. And my girlfriend slash partner, who's also like the cookbook's photographer, she was like, there's no way we're going to have 19 photos today.

You need like so the process to making the second book was like, okay, this is our recipe calendar. This is our content calendar. This is our this is my writing schedule, you know, and and then it was just really sticking to it because they give you a year. Let me tell you how quickly that year.

It felt like university all over again. I'm like, oh man, my essays do it. Yeah. And then you're doing all nighters and then you're making mistakes.

And but you know, the process and if I were to do a third cookbook, it would be even easier. Like I've already got most of everything in my head already. The experience, I wish I had someone in my life in those early years that like took me under their wing and was like, listen in like, why don't we just acquire your business. We'll do this together.

And I'm going to show you the way that I really would have benefited off of something like that. If someone like a real like senior person in the industry saw the noise I was making, and it was like, listen, if you need help, why don't we just join our two companies together. You operate as yours. We'll operate as ours.

And I'm here to give you assistance and resources. I think I, you know, that would have been a perfect scenario, but we don't live in a world of perfect scenarios. But what, okay, so I conversely to that, what do you think were some of the advantages of you sort of, were there any positives of you has sort of being thrown into having to do it all yourself and learn on the fly? Do you think that you learned anything?

I mean, you probably don't have to tell me now, but do you think that there were any sort of pros to that? Or is it all kind of like, fuck up with me? No, I mean, yes, I wish I had those things. However, like most things when I've learned it the hard way.

And now it's like, now I just know it. Like it's not even, I don't even have to think about it. It's just if I had the process where to happen, like, I do a lot of consulting for other companies now and there's no way I would have been able to provide them or put a dollar figure to my opinion. If I hadn't thought the hard way of that.

And I think it's sucked in the beginning. It sucks. We're living it. But I do think in the end, I came out on top of it.

Yeah, there always are certainly advantages to like sort of having to learn by yourself. But then you think I always think back, like, fuck, yeah, but that mistake that I learned costs this much money. That's just it though, right? Well, next time I don't know how much you can, we were talking about this sort of recording, how much you can tell us about what's going on now.

But like, it's very clear that you're not going to be resting on your laurels anytime soon. You've always got something on the go. So what do fans of Magusile have to look forward to? Well, I don't know, maybe she's sitting out for all that because I'll be honest, like, this is the least I've ever, I finally taking my own advice.

If that makes sense. I have never been doing more but doing less simultaneously. I've kind of pulled back from all my different facets of food service. And I'm integrating a lot more consulting into the company, which allows me, I want to treat things like a project from now on in a project as a beginning, middle and end.

And I think given how I've spent the last 10 years, that's how I need to approach, at least for the time of the game, my workload because I burned out for sure. I very, very, very much believe I burned out. And I think in order to be the best version of myself and my best version myself for other people, I need to physically work smart. My grandfather always used to say like, work hard and be smart.

So I did the work hard part. And now I need to work smart. Like, that's, I mean, the work smart part of my, the part of my journey. But the irony of all that is I started a new company.

I started a new company with, but it's a very, I can't say exactly what it is right now, but long story short, it's in the food industry, but it's more product driven. It does lend itself into food experiences and food dinners. But my, my role is to be a, the head of, of culinary and product development, but also the head of marketing. And it's like, I've never been better suited with all these years of all these things I've done.

It's actually to your point, like when you were like, was it worth it or did you learn anything? Yeah, I did learn something. I learned how to do all the things right this time in this company that I'm part of. So there's, there's three of us, the street partners and I might like, I have a very clear silo of where I'm supposed to be kind of putting my energy in and it will help you.

That's why I was asking you when this is coming out because I'll be able to finally announce when this is happening, probably anywhere between middle of March to middle of April, I'll be able to announce exactly what I'm working on. But in the interim, it's not a restaurant and it's definitely not, it's nothing that people that know me when I've ever seen coming. However, it's gonna be really cool when it does come. And I really hope that it makes a massive splash in the live fire cooking world.

If that makes sense. It is. I think you've surrounded it with that actually announcing it. So that's perfect.

Tell you guys after that. Yeah. Okay. We want to spill it.

And it's not for any other reason than we're, it's not that I try to be like all the secretive and it's that there's like other people impacted by the company. Like it's not just me anymore. They're like, we're done. That's like, there are a few of us that are working towards the school.

So we need to make sure that before we announce, it's like officially coming that there's certain land, certain like checkmarks that have been in milestones that have been reached within the landscape of the project. But I'll tell you guys after. It's the coolest thing I've ever done. I'm so excited for it.

If this occupies my next 10 years, just like the last 10 years have been occupied. Like I can't wait. It'll integrate travel and recipe development and product development, but still getting to interact with people on a daily basis. All the things I love about this amazing industry that we have that right now has a few pick ups and obstacles in it.

Well, it sounds exciting. And I'm sure if it's, I'm sure it will be a success. If it's not, then it's not going to be because you didn't work hard enough. I can guarantee that.

So. I'm glad you brought up. So. Matt, we really appreciate you coming on here.

This was, I know you're a super busy guy. So it's been great to spend a little time with you and we'll let you go. You're giving us some time. Let's tell our listeners where they should be looking out for these future announcements.

Where can they follow you? Etc. Well, first off, I want to thank you guys for asking me to be a part of this. I think our industry needs to do a much better job of lifting others up instead of bringing people down.

And I think there's no better way than to have conversations. So I really appreciate you asking me to be a part of this. And I hope, you know, I hope our industry has been through a ton of downsides last couple of years. So to your first point when we got on this podcast today, I hope we are coming through the other side of this and that we all kind of have a little bit of success and easier moments because God knows there's been nothing else.

As far as following along is what we do. You can visit our website, ChefMapAc and every human should travel more. You instantly become a better version of yourself when you leave your surroundings and you have a force to be in other people's environments. So just specifically, before you go from culinary school to a dish pit, like maybe travel the world, eat food, work for free, work for money, whatever it is, just learn a new skill and meet new people and understand flavor and how it can be so different in so many different parts of the world and what people grab it towards.

Because if you ultimately do want to, or if you're ever in a position to create a menu one day, you need to understand what people like. And that's actually a much harder task than it sounds. It will like cheese. It will be great.

It will be a key. So definitely travel more. I can't wait to travel more. But yeah, that's where you can find out everything we're doing and all the different projects are coming up.

And I'm very excited for 2020. What year is this? 22? Yeah, yeah.

It's all a blur in the last year. I'm very excited for the year. I'm excited for where it takes not only my career, but just where the industry is presenting new opportunities for chefs. I think it's about time.

Awesome. Well, thanks again. Everybody should be checking out all of the YouTube recipes. Those are awesome.

Matt's great on them. And again, we thank you for being on the show. Thanks again. Thanks very much.

Guys, take care.