E171 Rob Miller

This week's guest is Rob Miller, who joins us for an in-person interview. Rob currently works for the Wine Agency import firm and has also started his own agency, the Road Wine Import. Rob has worked as a Somalia and some of the top restaurants in North America and he is certified with both the International Somalia Guild and the Court of Master Somalia's. Make sure you check out Rob's portfolio of wines at thevineagency.ca or reach out to Rob on Instagram at rmillerwines or check the show notes as always for all the links.

Enjoy the show. Back with another episode of the industry podcast. This is Gip, that is Dan. What's going on with you?

Not too much, just hanging out with you and us as always. How do they go with you? Same as always. Wonderful.

Waking up on Mondays and how much money does it make? Yeah, perfect. We're finally moving into a holiday party season so things should be picking up for the bar industry. If not, I'll be taking one of those toaster baths.

No, I'll go your way for you as you did all the time. Yeah, sure. This is a good way out for her. Yeah, sure.

Andy. I believe I'll take you one every day before there works. It's good. It's good.

It's got him letting you're enjoying life. That's great. Okay, we have a great guest as always. Rob Miller is going to be joining us in just a second.

Before we get to Rob, we will encourage you to subscribe, rate and review the show. That helps us out a great deal. Also, if you'd like to be a guest on the show, you can hit us up at info at the industrypodcast.club or just directly at the industry podcast on Instagram. Where are you?

We'll find a wonderful artwork by Zacana at Zacana.co. He is the man who does the art. You want to hit him up for graphic arts needs. It's fantastic.

Also, we should mention that we were just on the Bart Tenders podcast. That episode is just throughout. The mixing glass is the name of the show. You should check them out as well.

They're great. Yeah, they're super fun. We've got a few themed podcasts. We've got a little bit of a 20-sided dice roll.

A couple of times, bring up some questions. It was good. We had one of those on recently and we'll have one of the hosts on and the other hosts on in the future as well. Yeah, December.

In December. So check those guys out. Great podcast. I guess that's enough of this bullshit.

Let's get to our guest, Rob Miller. How are you, Rob? Great. For those who don't know, Rob, but we even had known each other for a long time now.

Rob is a YA. He is a wine wrap. He owns his own wine agency now. You also do some outsourcing or consulting.

What is it's called? Consulting for a list or? Consulting. I do.

Just lend a hand where it's needed. If I can pitch in. I don't look for consulting gigs by any stretch, but La La Social House. I worked with a part of the ownership, previously part of it was that I became a child of a couple of years ago.

I had some connections there and it seemed to be a fit for me to help out with the wine program. Right. So that's a good side gig for you. You've always got a lot of shit going on as long as I know you've worked multiple jobs.

But that's a side hustle for you where you can, now, I know you're just like mine education, helping out friends or whatever. It's also a gig. You create a list for them. For say a new red La La Social House, there's a newer spot as a member of this club.

And maybe the ownership doesn't know very much about wine, but they've got to have a fucking good wine there because it's a member's only club. So they look to someone like you to create or sort of handcraft a list for them. Yeah. So I know I contribute in terms of writing the list, but I also contribute in terms of training the staff.

In fact, that's where I was right prior to here. I was doing a training session on Central and Southern Italy for the team. Like many people, they opened at the beginning of the summer. So like many restaurants, less picking, let's say, less talent out there.

A lot of younger staff than there were in restaurants five, ten years ago. Yeah, they were young stuff. Yeah. So just getting a lengthy understand that, hey, Cabernet's Omeno is the name of a great.

It's really basic, but giving them the tools they need to succeed and be able to. It's not a super extensive list. It's diverse and there's some interesting, more challenging wines. It's wines that mostly people are going to recognize.

When they come in, one of the mandates was they had asked for was that they asked for wines that aren't on every restaurant in the city. So I work with primarily local agencies in terms of the rep is local. I think that's important. If you're going to support anyone, support people that live in your city.

So whether that's Dave's Day Day with Rogers, whether that's Westclass and with all the right grapes, Candice Sweeney over at Lifford, try to work with people that live locally because they're going to support the place. That's good. That makes sense. As opposed to just bringing in the newest and coolest Toronto agency, which is great.

But I'm going to come and support your business. And also, there's a quick question about the younger staff and doing the wine training sessions with them. When you're trying to show them a more robust wines like the Cabernet Sauvignon stuff, is that more difficult as a result? Because it's obviously the palate started quite useless so much.

I think it goes the other way, doesn't it? Like when you first start drinking wine, you like that big fruit stuff right in your face and it's more, or it's quite different from wrong. But at least in my experience, as your palate grows, you tend to gravitate more towards the lighter sort of... More refreshing.

That's because we get older. That's because we get older and we can't handle it. The big boozies. That's how we did it.

But also like a Cabernet Sauvignon or like a Rioja or some of these big, even like a GSM, some of those wines, you should be paying them with food a little bit more often as opposed to having like a wine you're just sipping on. That's like a, you want something lighter, right? Totally. And like even today, one of the wines we tasted was a Brunello di Montalcino.

It's a great wine. It's one of the top wines produced in Italy. It's 100% San Gervais. They're obviously like most restaurants in Ontario.

They're not in a position. They're not buying 20 year old wines that make sure and ready to drink. They're buying what's released onto the market. So even though this wine has had six years of age, it's angular, it's acid, it's tannins.

So for a young person, you know, some of their early twenties, they're like, holy shit, this isn't, you know, this isn't them all back. I drank at home the other night at the Montalciano de Bruso. It's juicy, fruity, easy going wine. How do I sell this?

And for me, it's, you know, it's not necessarily about whether you like the wine, but how are you going to sell this to your guests? That's the whole fucking game. And like I love the way that you train that because like you do a training, like I've done training with staff as well. Like I don't have your knowledge, but I've some and it's like trying to explain like terroir and like where the fucking great comes from or where the more, but they don't give a fuck.

They're not going to remember that. They like the best. And I always say like, okay, we're going to try some wines. Figure out which one you like the best.

Push that wine. I don't care. Like that's what you're going to do anyway. And even though even today, you know, it was some grapes they wouldn't be familiar with like Feline Geena from Campania as an example.

Even Brnole de Montaccino, if you're in your twenties, early twenties, you're probably not drinking a lot of Brnole. It's out of no price. You're literally starting the 60s, 70s and if you are, then hit me up. Yeah.

You're doing that. You're 21. Let's talk together, right? But it's about giving them a little bit.

You know, it's not about knowing, you know, how long this has been aged and what. How long, you know, what does this wine even even talking about taste of the wine, well, I might taste dried cherries and you taste something else. So if I, you know, if you're a young serving, you start talking about taste to, I guess, you're immediately creating a barrier between you and them because they don't taste that. Then you've got to disconnect right away.

Do you find it also works the other way? Sometimes we're really suggestive. Like if you were to tell me I taste this, then I will try the wine again and somehow I'm tasting it. The power suggestion is crazy, right?

Yeah. It takes a, it takes a knowledge level. Yeah. You know, if you're a 22 year old server and you're sure serving a, you know, a 47 year old male who knows a lot about wine, I did air quotes there.

Yeah. You might not have the confidence to pull that out. So it's more important to know, hey, know the grape, know where it's from. And maybe a little bit, maybe a story about the producer that's, that's fun and unique.

So when I was trying to open sugar on, I was working at a bar called Rich Uncle for a hot minute, well, I was trying to get it open. Yeah. You were in the fridge. I sold rabbit and I was over a while.

Yeah. And you came to the train there because you were doing consulting there. Yeah. You were done with us.

Sort of whatever. But you did come into a training session there. And like a lot of the people who worked there had zero knowledge. I, I'm not as much as you again, but like, I love the way you did it because you had like the little, I don't even when you call them, like the little vials looked like, like training people's, how to smell shit and what do they smell when they smell it.

And it was like, okay, that is actually lemon. That is like a flower or whatever, but there was little vials where you smell. That was, I thought it was, I don't know if that's something that's common in, because I didn't think it's my course in the view, obviously, like if that's common in the wine education thing or it was just something you did, but I thought it was super valuable for like people to know anything. I think you need to, you know, you really need to break it down.

Wine is a very complex subject. You know, I mean, I took my first wine course in 1999 and I'm still enrolled in wine courses to this day. It's crazy. It's not something that you ever, you know, even if you're a master, a wine or a master, somehow, you don't know everything about wine.

You know, you pass an exam at a certain point, but there's, you know, whether it's history, you know, whether it's art, whether it's geography, science, so on and so forth. And even, you know, even this ball of wine that we're enjoying right now. Tell us about it. Well, yeah, I think, but even this ball of wine, which is the early brothers in Fendale, the wine from Contra Costa in California.

Available at the road, wines, and board. Or, yeah, available at the road wine imports. So the company that I own, my partner, Megan Ridge, you know, even a wine like this, you know, we're tasting it tonight. But if you'll, that doesn't mean we know the wine.

No. You know, if we taste this wine in a year, you're in a half now, if you're to buy a case, unfortunately, one of the challenges with importing wine in Ontario is that for me to sell this wine to you, you have to buy a case of 12. I can't just tell you, even though you maybe only want two or three bottles, that's just how it is. Yeah, one of the, one of the pros of, or at least the, the, the positives of the pandemic is that it's allowed restaurants the opportunity for bottle shots.

So they can just set up the challenges. There's not a lot of people that have done it that well. Well, it's hard because like we try to do it. And like people just don't have it in their brains yet that they're going to buy a super expensive wine, like the, the high have the market up for a certain price out the door of my bar when they can just walk down the road to go to the LCBO.

And buy something. And if they don't know that the wine that I'm selling them is much better than that, then why would they? Totally. So that's North America on retail shops.

So that's anyone that's got a retail shop and whether that's, you know, the US has been doing bottle shops or a lot of restaurants to sell by individuals bottles of wine way before we did, you know, the average markup is 25 to 28%, which doesn't sound like a lot, but I think off your mind, if you're buying a ball of wine for $20 or charging $25 to 28. So you're not making a lot of money on it, but you're getting people through regularly. So it's, it's tough for people to wrap their heads, restaurateurs, especially, you know, as an example, and I won't name names. So like to stay in business.

But there is. So there's a producer I work with and their wines come into the market at for restaurants, $21 and you know, one of the most popular Toronto bottle shops, restaurant, restaurant called Pure Pan, the bottle shop is being a great selection. It's highly worth visiting. It's just really smart choices.

So they charge, I believe it's 36 for the bottom. It's downtown Toronto. Your costs are a little bit more, but you're still, you're not adding that much to it. It's a wine.

It's not available at the LCBO. And it's a super cool wine. And restaurants get wines at, you know, 10% less than retail clients do. So the retail client you take paying 25.

So you don't think that much about the local place in town that has one of those wines. And they charge over $60. Right. It's like, this is why this wine does not sell for you.

And you need to take yourself away from that restaurant pricing mentality where three, three and a half, four times, you want something to do. But I should say three times is the norm. You're not, it's a retail game you're playing now. Right.

And getting your head around that has been difficult. I think for all of us a little bit because we were never allowed to do it. And then now that we're allowed to do it, it's getting your head around that notion that like, thank you, like for me, for instance, we have bottles that we sell in the bar and I'm like, you're paying for the audience. You're paying for it.

So I can pay my staff. You're paying like total. Just for me to pay my hydro bill, et cetera, et cetera. Amazon people, and like, but when they're walking to the door with it, it needs to be something they're feeling cheaper like that.

You want that, you want that foot traffic through, right? You want people to be like, Hey, you know, I'll be sick about the house. Yeah. And all listening to this.

I think a lot of it is what happens. It's all like fucking hard, fuck the LCP. But people, you know, there's, you know, especially after the pandemic, I think we're up at like 320 different importing agencies or something. There's a lot of wine that's not available at the LCP.

So, you know, if you're creating a bottle shop, you can have some really cool stuff. But if you want people to come in and buy those wines, they need to be enjoyable. Like there's, there's a huge, and I, you know, this has been a top conversation with a number of just not just other agents, but, but friends and the like people in the industry in the last few weeks. There's a, a let's say it's a private club golf club circuit.

So whether it's like held the London Hunt Club, London Club, Westmount, et cetera, et cetera. Remind me of it though, you know, a couple of stories with London Hunt Club one week. Stop it, Cory. Stop it.

Stop it. Yeah. But they're used to, so, you know, annually or twice a year, they would have a wine night and all the agents would come in and you'd pour your six or seven or eight wines and clients would buy, you know, you'd sell 25, 30 cases and it was great. Everyone benefit.

It was a great time. It was a big, big difference. You know, the older clientele are no longer buying cases. No prices have gone up also or they have full sellers.

The older generation is not interested in 12 months of wine. They're just not, you know, whether it's because they live in condos, whether because they're just, you know, there's other avenues, you know, who's ready to drink. There's pre-made cocktails, there's marijuana. There's a lot of other avenues and there's also, you know, there's a big kind of sobriety post, you know, especially with the younger generation, screw them.

And I, you know, I can't really get, especially coming after a pandemic. I don't know about you guys. I'm sure I can, you know, I test to it, but we, I mean, I drank a lot. Like, Tuesday was the new Friday, as they said.

Yeah, I was stress drinking. I gained probably 15 pounds, like, yeah. I drank a lot more booze right, like, every day. Yeah, I didn't drink as much during the weekend, but I would have like four, five, six drinks every day, every day.

Totally. So I totally understand why people are like, okay, we need to like, cool our jets, right? And prices have gone up. It's not just, you know, it's labor cross around the world.

It's things like, you know, finding, you know, pallets to put the wine on it. It's finding glass bottles to ship the wine on. Prices have increased there. You know, there's so many increases.

And then the, you know, it's like, climate change. Like, there's, yeah, climate change, you know, the LCBO beginning of last summer added an additional 10% to their freight charges, which, you know, 10% doesn't sound like a lot, but the LCBO being the LCBO puts that extra 10% mark up on before they throw their 73% mark up for. So that 10% is more than 10%. Yeah, like, we had a lot of wines in the market for restaurants that were, you know, 15, $16.

That became $19, $20 and rather no longer in that by the glass core. So, you know, it's challenging time for restaurants. It's a challenging time for wine producers. And it's not like, you know, the beer or the spirits industry where you control how much you produce.

Any more beer? You make more beer. You need more vodka. You make more vodka.

You need less. No, you're fucking eating this shit forever. You gotta get one chance. You get one chance a year, right?

And lots of times you fuck it up. And lots of times you fuck it up. You get fucked up. There's completely other control.

It's also, you know, yeah, it depends on what mother nature gives. That's what I mean. Yeah. It's not, you know, it's a very different industry.

There's definitely a lot less money made. You know, the old adage of, you know, the easiest way to make a million dollars in the industry is to start with 10. Yeah. I mean, you completely host.

I mean, I mean, I... You cannot own a winery unless you were already independently wealthy. Like, it's not reasonable, right? So like, I was up in, I got a lake earlier this year and I was signed to Iliad from Leaning Post and he was like, you know, not complaining, just talking about like what's happened to, like, and he also makes wine for good earth and other places, right?

Yeah, and he's right. He's awesome. He's awesome. I'm a believer.

Right? So, and like, just such a beautiful location. People should check that out if you're listening. You know, like he was just like talking about like what had happened to the crops over the last year or whatever and I'm like, holy fuck, like I think my job is stressful and it very much is.

But like, imagine, like he's their farmers. That's what they did. Yeah. Yeah.

It's just farmers, right? So, I mean, there are, you know, Ontario has its own challenges, right? Like, you know, where we want producers to move to organics, meaning, you know, lesser, no herbicides, pesticides, fungicides, no chemical additions to the vineyard or biodynamics. But you look at the producers that can actually do it and they're, you know, they're owned by Moritaz, one of the producers he's like, yeah, so something has, you know, like doesn't make enough wine this year.

He's going to be okay. He'll be okay. Or, or Harold Teal. It's, you know, he was a very well-known lawyer.

Like, people that have money, yeah, you can afford to do that. I mean, Ontario, Niagara in particular, is situated between two very large lakes. So you've got a lot of disease pressure as a result of being that close to water. So working organically as much as you want to.

And if you're just a farmer, you can't just be like, yeah, we'll fuck it. We're not making wine this year because, you know, we had to spray. No, so that's your life. There's no decrease in production of Maramol Rose.

Yeah. It's completely completely. Right? I mean, we have seen in the Ontario industry, there's much more of a kind of a, that's used the French term litre as an A or the reason to approach where you're before, you know, 25, 30 years ago, it may have been, hey, we're spraying for this May 1st, June 15th, this spray is going on and we're just spraying on a schedule.

Now most producers, or at least quality producers, are only spraying if they have to. So there's less chemicals being used, but it's, it's, but that means that you're more exposed to nature. Yeah, there's ways around that, you know, better education too. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you have to use other education for that. Something like integrated pest management as an example. Explain that. So integrated pest management.

So say you've got a particular, you've got a particular, you know, whether it's a viral component or an insect that's attacking you bring in the predator for. So it might be bats in the vineyard. Yeah, it might. But it's like the old lady who's on the fly?

Yeah. So there's ways to combat it, but you know, the biggest one is, is Fongo Precious or Ontario. And, you know, there's not much you can do. It gets human.

I mean, is we're all aware it gets human this time of time. You know, that creates rock pressure and you just have to spray against that. Yeah. And like it's just having all of the world, but in climate change, it's such a massive thing like all the wildfires in California, like California, or one was way for price already.

Now wait till we see what happens in five years. And like, and then you're talking about like stuff in Europe where everyone's building an elevation now because of climate change, right? And you need to have you in a cooler climate. And it's not even a elevation.

I mean, look at somewhere like Barolo, where historically the vineyards were Southeast facing because that was going to be ripe enough for the grapes to ripen. And on the other side of the hill, you would plant Barbeira or perhaps Luciano. Now they're planting Nebiole on the other side of the hill because it's getting so warm that the grapes are actually going to ripen on that side. And that's the only way they're going to because they're becoming too ripe on the south.

Yeah, I mean, we're fucked anyways. Yeah, I mean, like whatever. Whatever. If you have wines in your cellar, drink them up.

The fridge doesn't get in bed, so it doesn't matter. It's too much. Don't buy wines for 20 years from now. Unless I'm selling them.

Yeah. So I'm talking about that. Honestly, I got to talk to you about this shit all day. I thought it was super fascinating.

We should talk about also what you're doing with the road, wine, and imports because... Deciderate? Road wines and imports? Road wine and imports.

Okay. So because I think what you're doing is super, first of all, I think I did it at the time when we put it on a show. So congratulations for starting your own wine. You just did awesome.

And you've been doing this for so long. Like you've been working for the vine. You're still working for the vine. You've been doing that for so long.

And so much wine education. You've been working at fine dining restaurants, which amazing. You did work at Allo. The number one restaurant in Canada for Allo.

It was four or five years at least anyway. Yeah. So you've been doing fine dining experience. You got into wine, like you said, way early, way earlier than anyone.

I know. Like all the other people that are sort of in the circle of like the super wine knowledge people in this community got in way later news. So I think a lot of people look up to you for that reason as they should. But the one thing, like you've been selling for the vine for so long, I always say like Manas is the Rob Miller retirement plan.

It's like... People love it and it's in every fucking barn town. Mostly. Mostly.

Mostly. I've said this. I feel like a lot lately. What I started working with the vine, which I think was about 12 years ago.

I think there were three, maybe four people in town that were agents. Yeah. And the last count, there was like 14. There's so many.

There's not getting people with them. And like obviously I'm never going to turn down a wine tasting. But what I've learned at my level is I just want to... Like at the end of the day, if I have a meeting with someone and they're just cool and like the wine's good and obviously the wine has to be good.

That's the most important thing. But like the people I'm dealing with are cool, easy to deal with. Like people you're great friendships with over time. And then like all the other nonsense I deliver you and the guy counting all works out easily.

That's the big thing. Like then I just start narrowing it down. Right? And then you're just like I'm just going to work with these people.

They're so fucking any of them now. There's so many. I mean even my son, and I like to go, I'm solid up to date but I feel like every three days I'm like oh that's another agent. Oh that's another agent.

That's right. It's right in my position. Because they're all like it's like we're just good. Like the wine tasting is something wrong.

But like... It's also about what can sell in this market. Right. And I'm in a unique position about long because I will sell anything and everything.

And that's kind of what we're trying to do though. But you guys are in a very unique position. Probably unique to the entire city. It is.

I mean there's literally two or three places. I would say definitely West and odd. Yeah. Maybe.

But you know SV up town. Law law is different because I participate in that. But if you're a larger, say you're somewhere like the Bauer kitchen. It's a wine focused restaurant.

But you think of how many covers they'll do over the night. Unless you've got a dedicated sommelier that has hand picked all of their hand picked everything and knows. And is there regularly? Like that's...

You need to have lines and that doesn't make sense to have a wine from Georgia no matter how cool it is. They're not doing it. No. I mean they're just not.

You need to have lines that will mostly sell themselves or that are at least recognizable enough that a staff member can jump on or a few staff members can jump on. So it's not. I mean we're... I've been in the region since 2009.

I opened up the Bauer kitchen. You know I love the region. I'm from London originally in the US and better part of the decade in Toronto. I love our positioning here.

It's a strong economy here. There's a lot of great things. But we're not Toronto. No.

But like again, like it's not so promote Babylon since it was wine bar. Time to win. Time to win. 23 Kingsford.

No. But that is what we're trying to do. So if you didn't win. I'm trying to get it.

I'm trying to get it. I'm in the position that I can buy this shit and my general clientele will drink it because they're curious. Whereas like somewhere like Bauer kitchen, that's not looking for it. They came for a meal and they want that Cali cab.

Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with that. No.

Right? No. It's just about, you know, Corey who's running their beverage program now, he's great. He's actively taking some WCT classes.

That's good. It's great to work with. I mean there's some knowledge there and the company is great. But Corey can only do so much.

He's out there 24 hours a day. Right? And the challenge in a program like that is you want to bring in lines that you like that you think, hey, and this is, you know, even when I open, I bought some lines that, you know, it's four or five buyers later were like, fuck me, I'm like, this one. Why did you buy this?

Scared my existence, my friend. Yeah. As all the problem, I'm constantly fighting against my own taste. And I realized I got to sell some shit to other people.

But you know how many fucking reps could just come to my taste with me? And I was like, so here's the Piedmont collection. No. That's a big hurdle as a wine buyer.

It's something that you either get or you don't. You know, eventually you get to a point where you think, hey, these are the best. These are, you know, these are great ones when put on the list. But if you're the one who has to hand sell them.

Right. And it's not even me. It's my staff, right? So that's when I have to get it.

I was like, I don't know. At least it's your own money. So I'd be like, oh, you're like, that's what I'm like. Right.

I'm going to put this B.C. Giversumira. I guess people say, drink it. Drink it.

Drink it. I'm like, what? I'm like, at least in my bar, I can do that a little bit. I need to still get it on my own head.

Sometimes I'm not just doing my personal taste, but I can put a Giversumira on the list and be like, people should be educated and try this. It's kind of what we're trying to do there. It's in the East bar. You can't do that at a big chain restaurant.

You can't. But anyway, what I was trying to get at this is like, so you've been doing this for a long time with the vine. And then at one point, you decided to partner up with what your partner is doing. And do your own thing.

I want to talk about the road wine imports because I always find that when you come and taste in the MMI bars, the stuff that you bring is an asymptotically just finished making, like, always super interesting stuff. You guys have really done it. You have a short list, which I actually appreciate. You also work with the vine where there list is epic.

It's pages and pages and pages. But it's more like the vine works with about 70 wineries. But we're four pages of wines. I mean, you look at...

It's not like a Lifford. It's not like a Lifford. Yeah. Lifford one tree dies for every day.

Right, so sorry, Candice. I love you. No, it's been a bit over a while. So when you come to me and taste the stuff from the road, I know it's very...

Also part of this is probably because you're just starting. But you've curated the wines very carefully. Like anyone would do getting into their own agency. We talked to Mary Louise, the company, the last week, and the same thing started on agency.

You have to do that at the start. But as a result, I love to catch you guys at the beginning because your list is... You can only afford to bring in so many wines, so you really have to be selective. I also think that's...

I mean, for me, the trend, particularly in the last decade, and you see it not just with newer importers, but older ones as well, is new, new, new, new. Bring in the new guy, too. That's not good business. If I'm going to sign a winery, it's about building your brand over time.

Right? And I mean, there's always going to be new wines. It's always going to be a trend. If you're bringing in new stuff, then the gal or the fellow I talked to five years ago, that's like, hey, we're selling less wine because you're chasing this new unicorn or whatever wine.

To me, that doesn't make sense. The whole point of wine is you're creating relationships with people around the world, and you're saying, hey, this is what we can do for you in the Ontario market, and let's give it a try. And they're taking a leak of faith just to even decide with you. Would you say that...

This is my feeling about your agency is that you bring in very unique stuff. It's focused on organic stuff. You focus on sometimes minority communities making wine, or maybe holy, I don't know if I don't want to speak for you. For me, and maybe it's just a relationship with Babylon sisters because that's what I'm trying to do there as well.

I love when you come to take something and I love serving your wines there because it's exactly what we're trying to do. But definitely your wines are very unique and very... They seem focused on not always the wines around points. They're very cool.

They're very... They're all delicious. But you're almost like a social aspect to it as well. It's totally...

That was the impetus for the agency. We were looking at very eco-conscious producers. I think if you're in an area where you're at the very bare minimum and be doing organic, you should be doing that. It's a no question task.

If you can do organic, and not every can, there's parts of the world. Agra is an example. Organic is a very challenging... How are you going to do it?

If you go out of business. If you have a lot of money behind you and you can afford to maybe not make as much in some years. So there are ways where you have the extra labor available to do so. Not eco-conscious.

Climate change is hitting us more and more every year if you're not farming for the future. If you're not doing the best you can, we work with a number of regenerative farm producers where it's not just about the inputs into the vineyard. But by non-tilling as an example, there's potential to create a carbon negative. This is an opportunity for...

If we just looked at farming alone, I know everyone's got a hard on for vehicles. I still haven't included it until you look at the prices. Any figure... Oh man, I'm going to be here today and there today.

Where do I have to charge here? There's a hundred companies in the world that are responsible for 97% of the emissions. Me buying electric vehicles is not going to solve that problem. It probably isn't.

It's probably... But if we look at farming as a whole, I mean you think of how much around the world, how much farmland there is around the world. And if we can create... It's interesting, if you look at NASA photographs from space during the normal times of tilling, so kind of late April or so, that is what the most carbon is released.

So you look at these clouds of carbon that are coming up, so if we can figure out a way to change the farming for that, that's going to have a major impact on our future. So it's really... The solution is a lot more simple, but I mean it's not as simple when you talk about these massive agrochemical producers that are... You drive in between here and strapper and you look at all the different signs for different corn that's planted and who they're getting these from.

You're like, yeah, we're fucked man. Yeah, it's farmland. We're fucked. It's just brainers.

I mean, we were talking about it earlier, it's becoming such a difficult thing to do. Grow wine, grow good wine on this planet because of climate change. And so I think it's admirable that you work with these wineries that are trying to do the right thing. The percentage of impact it has, maybe not that much.

But the fact that they're trying is a big deal. I think even just from an ethical standpoint, right? I mean, there's this huge push in towards natural wines. I agree with the concept, natural wine, well, it's not really legally defined in most places.

It's that nothing's been added to the wine and nothing has been taken away. And I love there's a little bit more truth in advertising there because wine can be very manipulated and it's not a natural product. You don't walk into the woods. You're like, oh, why?

You actually have to make wine, right? And that's okay. There's nothing more than that. I never heard of this guy that way, but that's so unpointed.

Yeah, it's not a natural product. So I like you hear the term raw wine and I think that makes sense. I think that's raw wine, nothing's added. But there's times you need to add something to wine.

These are fucking taste goods because what's the point? Yeah. There are plenty of quote unquote raw wines that I've tried that I absolutely love because I like funky wine and I think that as your pal develops, you kind of lean that way a little bit. But I always think, pre-or that's been doing that forever.

It's one of the funky versions of wine I know about and they have not been advertised as raw natural wine or whatever. The concept of it is great, but when it gets to the consumer, the problem with wine, and there's two kind of, you look at people that are getting into wine. And if you're in your point, you don't want to drink what your older siblings or your parents drink. Same with us, right?

Yeah, I grew up with a name. Yeah, I did. Right? I did.

Just went into it. I did. I'm going to do that. I did get it over half an hour before recording.

But I mean like, you know, the parents drank like LaVat 50 or Canadian. So they were like, oh, I'm going to take molten gold and then I'm going to take this. Yeah, I was going to do that. Right?

And then it's the younger generation of craft beer and you know it's the same of wine whereas when I was much younger, I was like, oh, Grunavilla, this is so cool. These are wines that are kind of on the waist, and now it's like natural wines. And a lot of it, it's not just because you don't want to drink what your parents or the previous generation did, it's you're also, you're afraid to believe in your own palate. Okay?

So there's the whole, the emperor wears no clothes, right? Where people are like, oh, this is terroir, this is the way the wine is supposed to taste, even though it's loaded with volatile acidity, even though it's brendomicy, even though it literally tastes like shit, it's like, what the fuck would anyone drink this? It's also, it's a generation that grew up with kombucha, right? They're doing some different flavors, so they're like, yeah, this is good, this one should be drinking, oh my god, it should be drinking this.

You're like, oh, fucking just say you don't like it, just fucking say you don't like it, because it smells and tastes like shit, dude. And also, look at my palace difference, too, so it's also okay to be like, that is not for me. Which is totally fine, too, right? Like, I mean, we went through particularly at the end of the 1990s and early 2000s, we went through this period where more is more, I mean, North America, the wine culture is really like 40 years old, right?

Now, we mostly grew up on Coca-Cola, sweeter palettes, so wine as a beverage is a very new thing to the dinner table, so in the early 90s, early 2000s, you had publications like Wine Spectator, you had Robert Parker who were reviewing wines and the wines they liked, were wines that were perhaps very rich and right, maybe over oats, and if you were a wine maker and you made a wine that scored in the 90s, your neighbors are like, okay, so they did 100% new oak, I would do 150% new, right? And more is more, I think, more is better. That's the American wine. And that's the American wine.

I don't know if it's politically correct, but it was say anyways. But there's Matt Kramer who writes for Wine Spectator, who he still does, probably over the years, the one I most respect. He wrote one of his articles was about wine, so if you were to taste 100 Shirazas. Cool, right, just a great day.

Well, maybe, maybe, or 100 caps, I was like, you didn't even think about it, 400 glasses of water, but. Yeah, or whatever, you don't even make it 100 feet on the wires, right? And you're trying to judge them and score them. The one that stands out is the wine that's the biggest.

So he had referred to it at the time, it was the wine that was the biggest taste. Okay, so you've got 100 women, it's the wine of the one of the biggest tastes, the one that stands out. Well, maybe that's not necessarily the best choice, right? You know, is that the wine that has the most to say, is it the most interesting?

I mean, you can reverse that, and just to be fair, it's the guy with the biggest, it's 20, 20, it's the guy with the biggest balls in his jeans, right? The biggest chest pack. But the point you're making is, makes total sense of me, because when you're trying wine, or just like, there's a reason why, when you're taught how to taste wine properly, you start from a certain area, and move up to the bigger stuff. Because if you hit the biggest wine, that's all you're gonna taste.

It's just like, you can't taste LaFouag whiskey, and then- Oh, I think I'll bat you. Yeah, that's a good one. You can't, right? And that's the challenge, Joe, anytime you see wine competitions, or wine scores, it's like, yeah, the wine that stood out, maybe wasn't the best wine, it might've been a really good wine, something to say that it wasn't, but it might've been the shy, more reticent wine, it actually has a lot more character, a lot more interest, that you should be kind of delving into.

And I mean, that's, you know, wine can be quite personable on that level too. So there's not necessarily a right answer to that, but wine scores, and where I was going initially, is that in the 90s and 2000s, when wine scores was such a big thing, the wines weren't always necessarily better than the wines that weren't getting a low. Right, because they just maybe had them last, or whatever. Or how did they- You get to follow with the teens, right?

Yeah, they could say that, because when you go to the LTVO, and you see the ones with the scores on, and they tend to be very big wines. Totally. Yeah, right. How often do you see like a- You never see 89s.

92. 92 is the one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, like even now, it's like, if the wine is at 94, and there was a point where wines, you know, when I, you know, the early point of my career, in fact, my first really got into wine, I was a product consultant with the LCBO.

This is when I lived in Toronto. And you know, I was, it was very instrumental in where I am now. I would, you know, taste between three and 500 wines a month. You know, that was part of the, whether it was the vintage releases, whether it was being part of the VQA grading panel, going to tastings on my own.

Like literally, it was a lot of wine. And it wasn't, at that point, you know, I wasn't like, oh, this wine is this much different. It was just, you know, rote memorization. So many wines cross your palate.

Eventually you're like, oh, this is what broil it tastes like. Oh, this is what. It's all muscle memory. It was totally awesome memory.

You know, it was funny, you know, I laugh about this all the time. I lived in Mississauga and I tasted downtown Toronto. So I take the go train in. And there were so many times, you know, you taste 80 to 121.

A little glow on. Sure. And there were so many times I take the go train home and wake up in Hamilton. And we're like, fuck, this is not my gang.

I gotta go back. Do you think that the only way, I think this is gonna be obvious answer, everyone who listens to the show is specifically the wine. The only way to get to the point where you are is you just have to be tasting wine all the time. You do.

And you just need to figure out what you like. Like it's not. And it's okay that somebody like quote unquote expert, like say a Rob Miller loves a specific type of wine. It doesn't mean you have to love it.

Oh, God, no. Because everyone's palate is different. No, you need to enjoy it. Like the average wine consumer doesn't need, or doesn't want to try a different wine every week.

They're like, okay, I just don't need. I got the thing I like on this one. These are the two or three wines. I like them.

I understand most people, but there's also people. I don't need them. I want something new and unique. Because there's a lot of people like to go the same resort every vacation.

I don't want to say most people. Yeah, I don't want to go somewhere different. I want to go somewhere different. I want to go somewhere different.

I want to go somewhere different. But both are okay. At least you're drinking wine. At least you're drinking wine.

No, I mean, I work with a very recognizable brand. It's a big part of what I sell. It's not, no, it's not the style of wine that I would necessarily drink. But people at least are drinking wine.

I know that's a big generation. People are drinking wine. And like, I suppose the dust drinking beer or dust drinking vodka sodas, and that's always a good thing. Okay, you've given us so much time.

It's awesome. I'm going to roll you out on these two questions. What is your favorite wine to drink? I just need like, if you had, that's real wine, what would it be?

Yeah, it would probably be Burgundian Pinot Noir. Because of Burgundian Pinot Noir. Just because it's generally high price range. When it's great, it's the holy grail of wine.

Right, I might have heard of it roll out, but you know more than I do. No, no, no, no, no, roll. I mean, it's hard to pick. I mean, you say it's like picking a favorite child.

Everyone has a favorite child, but they're what you say. Three pigs. You don't say that on the show. Yeah, but I mean, it's true.

That's just, I have one kid, so it's an easy one. Oh, okay. But it would be probably Burgundian Pinot Noir or Champagne. I mean, I can drink Champagne, a good Champagne, especially Rose Champagne, and one of my favorite.

Rose Champagne. Is that Bill of Cards Simmel? I would drink that seven days a week. If I had to only drink one wine every day for the rest of my life.

And what is the grape you hate? Because we all have one. Pinotage, for sure, 100%. So good.

You mean good Pinotage or Champagne, I'm sorry. I've never, you know, I've tried some good Pinotage, but it's such a small percentage. Well, there's always good expression of anything. And there's a few.