E178 Rob Miller Returns

This week's guest is Rob Miller, who turns to join us for another in-person recording. We have a great conversation with Rob where we touch on things such as future market and consumer trends in the alcoholic beverage industry. We talk about the challenges of producing wine and people's tastes and perceptions of wine, as well as a host of other topics that you'll definitely find entertaining. Enjoy the show.

We're back with another episode of the industry podcast. This is the first episode of 2024. Oh yeah, how you feeling? Well, probably hungover.

There's a little bit inside baseball behind the scenes work there, it's like we are actually recording this in December, but 2023, but you will be listening to it in January 2024. So we're assuming we'll be hungover. I'm assuming right by now that the Michigan Wolverines will be the national champion in college. How's it going to come up to the Christmas holidays for our bars and stuff?

Christmas was great, except for one, as we know, who was in the last episode, obviously, that the argy will be shutting down, but so due to that, but yeah, the Babylon sisters was great over the holidays, sugar run was great over the holidays. Lots of Christmas parties. People are back out doing that again this year, 2023, that is. So that's great.

Fantastic. It was way of market improvement over the previous year. So, I'm out of curiosity with the Christmas parties. Has that had better impact on the regular weekdays like that Tuesday to Thursday?

The Christmas parties? Yeah, we actually have, it's actually ironically. So sometimes we'll have a party book on like a Wednesday or Thursday, because that's when people can get in a lot of people leave it to the last second of the book and then those are the days they can get and most of what that works out great for us. Or that's just the time they can do it.

So yeah, I mean, and also like this thing, people are out more. So like we've had some random like busy Wednesdays or busy Thursdays at the bar just because people are either out shopping, you know, drinking after or they were out there at their staff party that was maybe not that exciting and wanted to go for a couple of drinks after. So yeah, so it's great all around, which is great because God knows what's going to happen in January and February. So yeah, scroll that money away.

That's what we do in this business. And that's what I did. Yeah, and you? Holiday is good.

Does an effect work very much? I guess? Because sometime I'll look at least in response of our clientele European, they like to take a couple of weeks off around Christmas and years. Thank goodness.

So, it actually makes a pretty significant impact. So that's kind of nice, actually kind of a nice way to wind down because since we got bought by the Americans, the end of financial years now year end versus like usually March used to be when we were Canadian. Sometimes it could be a lot of work. Yeah, it would have been Christmas in years.

So you buy yourself 200 plus dollars worth of Dylan's, Dylan's, click yours quite a bit. It's really a little bit dropped, a little bit high. They tell me the story before we recorded tonight that you went to buy a gift for his, well, let's just say relative. In-laws?

Yeah. In-laws. Yeah. Yeah.

Relatives will say relatives. Extended family relatives. Yeah. They're from Italy.

And we'll be going to get to buy them some lemon cello from one of our more locally based facilities and turns out, was it such a hot idea for my brother? No. And $25 shipping fee, you thought you'd better buy a bunch of bottles. And now looks like we'll be sipping on the gears during the podcast and then we'll be able to do the pictures.

Yes. Yeah. The tea was a pitch bran. I love it.

Well, we have, we love to sip on the aperitivo as well. We have, you should come by by a lot of sisters for the Amaro flight. Lots of cool Amaro's going on there. Sugar run is always your spot for rum.

And cocktails are both spot, new cocktail list at both spots. So that's at Sugar Run Bar and at Babylon Sisters Bar on Instagram. One's in Kitchener Ones and Waterloo. You can find them.

That's for this show. We have Zach Canada doing the artwork on the Instagram page at ZachCanada.co. And that is where you could direct your direct message to us, the industry podcast on Instagram, which would be a guest on the show, or you could email us directly in vote the industry podcast. Club CLUBB.

You should also follow us. That helps. Rate, review. Tell us what you think of the show.

Even if you think it's just don't give us the shitty star ratings. Oh, we can borrow those emails. The host is an asshole. That actually does work maybe for me.

Yeah. I'm working. Most of your time as we have to edit it anyway. I'm surprised that they know you're an asshole.

I know. At any rate, someone who's not an asshole, our good friend Rob Miller is back with us this week to kick off 2024. He was on episode recently, but we had such a good conversation that we thought we would continue it when he was available next. So Rob, welcome back to the industry podcast.

Great. Thanks for having me back. We must have had you got so drawn to last. Thank you for God.

And I signed me up again. So I was like, I don't even have this Miller guy on you. The funny thing is we took last time. It took me so long to get you on the show because I kept for some reason I thought I don't know why I was on this communication or whatever.

I thought maybe you didn't want to be on the show or you were like, why the fuck has this guy invited me on the show. And now twice in no time. Twice in June once. Yeah, I didn't know it was true.

That was my guy. I might line up. I was fuckers. I asked me to be on the show forever.

All my friends have been on the show. It's 78 episodes later. I'm a blast boy on the show. And he has an ass.

I have to knock last boys. That's where I started. Actually, we should have someone who's that would be a good idea for a show. Somebody who is strictly just out of the industry and this is a blast.

Because generally, all of everybody we've had on the show, who's had either service like an electric front of us experience started as a back bar or a bus boy or whatever you want to call it. And so many knock it out. There's a dishwasher. Right.

So we don't really have we tend to have people with a lot more experience on the show. But that's an interesting idea. Yeah, some of that's just that's fresh and it has some aspirations and what their perspective and what they think they're how far they're going to go. I mean, I've been able to drink with them and that's the result.

David Letterman coffee cups. Yeah. I called that we're going to have a jungle. My step kid still refers to my like when he sees me with a coffee coffee, he's like, oh, you're having tea?

Because we have to eat. I would just pour wine in the tea cups. Take the string on the side. Yeah.

It's like, oh, it's something. It's a glow on it before you. I do that on a lot of zoom calls like below on the bugs. It's the same thing when I go to the mentally far, I do the same thing.

Well, thanks for coming again. And thanks for once again bringing awesome wine. We are drinking wine from Rob's import company here, the vine. Well, not your company specifically, but one of you saw wine for.

So in case anyone doesn't remember from the last episode, that is what Rob does. He sells wine. He teaches wine. I don't know what we were talking a lot before.

We started recording. So I don't know how much of the stuff we can divulge on the show about potentially. I think everything was fun. Okay.

So we're not a mail stripper now. You're potentially going to be teaching at console college doing a WSTT program. Yeah, exactly. It's something that we've worked on for a while.

So we're in the final stages of setting up on a college as a APP or approved program provider, which will allow us to facilitate the winescapes education trust programs, levels one and level two, level three. I don't really don't see the potential for a level four diploma here in town. But getting in and out of Toronto to take a class is a nightmare. So it's really I think going to be instrumental in helping develop the local industry, developing the young people just getting into the industry, giving them some certification and getting them a certification that's recognized worldwide.

I think it's great because it's like, I mean, when I was taking the courses, you were kind of like, I don't know if you're involved with the program then or not. I think you were. You weren't one of my instructors, but you were taking it with Michelle Paris. That's right.

Yeah, it's a different company. But they were just doing pop-ups in town. So I didn't have to drive to Toronto. I remember we were doing it at the, like they were redoing the Walbur hotel.

We were doing it in some back room there, which was great. But yeah, so one of my old friends, David Lobe, was one of my instructors and Michelle obviously. And yeah, the one thing I would say is like, there was a program for so by me, obviously for what I do, I need to buy wine for my businesses, but I also need to teach myself about the wines that I buy and the basics of wine. And like those courses are so great just for that.

It's also great. The one thing I say, I have always said about the WSA programs is it taught me how to buy better wine cheaper. And everybody needs that knowledge. Completely, right?

Like it's easy to just drink expensive wine and to say, oh, that wine's $75, so it must be good. It must be good quality. But you need to understand, well, what is quality, right? And it's not just about what you'd like.

I mean, that's very important. I mean, that's something, you know, even as a wine buyer in my career. You know, and you know, there's many restaurants that probably have some wines I still bought because I buy wines that I like, based on my pal, not based on, you know, necessarily, you know, what this made more sense. Budget wise, for the restaurant, this made more sense.

Well, this is what the consumer, who's the end, you know, the end game for that wine with them in mind more about my own ego. So it's, I think it's very important. And you know, even to this day, you know, yeah, I drink some some great stuff at home, but I'll buy, you know, the 10 or 12 dollar ball of wine just to be, you know, just to set those parameters and be able to say, okay, you know, this is what a 12 dollar ball that tastes like. This is what a $14 ball of wine from California tastes like.

So why should I spend 30 bucks? Why should I spend 100 bucks? And so on and so on. That's definitely interesting.

That's the smart people to do that more often. It's like, obviously having the knowledge, but even if you don't take the courses, that's a smart thing to do for people is to ride the level and see what it tastes like first. And we're going to get into this later. But the problem with the LCDO selection is so trash these days.

And it's like, my role for it after I took the courses, because I used to be that guy, I was like, oh, it's on the top shelf, it's probably the best, right? And then I learned about spirits and I learned about whiskey before I learned about wine. And I was like, oh, I wonder if this is wind whiskey, it's very apparent that like you can buy cheaper stuff that's better. Like Happy Van Winkle is amazing, but so is Angel's Envy.

You know, and so, so then I was like, oh, this is a supply to wine. I took the course and didn't. And my rule forever was after I took the courses was I'm not going to buy a bottle of wine over $20. I'll challenge myself to go to the LCDO, go to the event to just find something good for under $20 or less.

And you know, just sit and miss. But like you can, if you want to know what you're looking for, it's a lot easier. And once you know where, which countries are shopping, it's a lot easier. Right.

And I mean, you need to, you need to branch outside of your comfort zone, like any look, if you're a California Cabernet Sauvignon drinker, you're going to be hard pressed to find something under $20 that isn't perhaps, you know, manipulated, you know, it's chipped with oaks, you know, it's perhaps had some de acidification done to it, had some mega purple added for color, you know, there's some residual sugar there to mass deficiencies, and not knocking. I'm just using them as an example. So with California, if you're a California cab drinker and you're like, good stuff, you're looking at 40 or 50 bucks, generally. And there are other reasons why that's like, I mean, we don't need to teach a course here tonight, but like there, a lot of what people don't realize is like, why specifically wines cost more in certain regions than other regions, there's a million things that go into that.

Well, I was lucky enough to get invited to your champagne lunge at La La La La. It was the other day and you were getting into that about why certain, like why champagne costs more in certain regions, blah, blah, or champagne region, obviously. Champagne lunch. That's it.

Yeah. So many tires speak here. I'm sorry. I told actually, no, I don't get to pass it along to you.

I needed a big nap after that. Oh my god. And a food going to that. Did you have the pasta?

I did. It was really good. But then I had to lean. Remember because I got an emergency column and I was like, I was like, did you box the rest out and take away?

No, I just had to split like, it was like a goat. It was like a goat immediately emergency. It was like, why I love my fucking job. But anyway, everything worked out and I had an awesome lunch.

But yeah, we were talking about that there about like, the reasons why certain wines cost more from certain regions. There's so much that goes into it that a lot of people don't realize. They just think, Oh, Cali Cab costs this or whatever. Champagne costs this.

Well, there are reasons for it. And there's reasons why certain wines cost more than others. And it has to do. Thank you.

There's so many factors like how it's harvested, how it's aged, like where the land is, like how hard is to grow in a certain region. Like, that's fine. I always feel like Ontario won't get to bad rap because it's very hard to grow wine in Ontario. So it tends to be more expensive.

But I think it's harder to grow wine here, but it's also a very important factor that a lot of people don't consider is that no matter what it is you're doing in Ontario, you have to pay minimum wage. Right. So, and I mean, most wineries, I mean, you're working with the same team in the vineyards because you don't want to just talk about any willy-nilly person working in your vineyards and messing up a long year of work. But I mean, you know, and this was probably just over a decade ago.

My first visit to Argentina and a very large mall back producer that most people know. They were paying a family of four, the equivalent of two dollars a day to work in their vineyards. So, it's, you know, when people are like, well, I can get this wine from Argentina for seven bucks. I'm like, yeah, of course, you can't know why and you don't know the human cost is on that.

And you know, it's, I've said it for a long time that, you know, we saw this movement in coffee, you know, where people were looking at, okay, well, what is that? What is happening? Truly happening with the farming. And we're starting to finally see that in wine.

I think it's important. But for many consumers, they're like, oh, well, okay, well, why is that one fifty five dollars not well? Because you actually made a fair living wage to people at each step of the production. And they're not, it's not like machine-speaking in the grapes either, right?

It's like a Jackson trig or something, or maybe that's not a good example. But you know what I mean? Like someone that was like, a yellow tail. Yeah, for sure.

It's like a machine smashing the grapes off. There's, you know, there's, there's, you know, at least you're not as worried about the machine putting in too many hours. But you know, you can understand, you know, when there's economies of scale and play that obviously has a factor too. But for many consumers, particularly in wine, the wine industry is so segmented more so than compared to the beer industry where it's owned, the majority, like over 95% is conglomerates, right?

It's the name of spirits. So wine, it's not like that. Yes, there's some large companies. But the majority overwhelming majority is smaller family owned producers.

Under family owned producers, you know, they get one crack at it each year. They're doing the, you know, the best, they have a terrible harvest or a terrible, you know, it's a hail storm. It's rain at the end of the opportune times. It's like wildfires.

Wild fires. You know, you look at the impact of climate change and what the impact is going to be on their yields. It's going to drive up prices. I mean, you know, we've seen that, we've seen that particularly in the last few years where wines that were, you know, in the high 20s are now in the high 30s and it's, you know, it's labor challenges still.

It's that increased cost and labor. It's that increased cost of, you know, cost of production, whether that's bottles, whether that's finding, you know, boxes, or anything, everything has gone up in price and we see that in the final cost of the bottle. And I, again, I totally, you know, wine is becoming more and more of a luxury product. And there's, you know, we're, we're seeing whether it's, you know, kind of, you look at the three kind of top consuming countries and wine around the world.

It's France, it's Italy and Spain. And consumption patterns are declining. People are drinking less, younger generation is, I know it's hard to believe. I'm trying to help on my part of my end, but you know, people are looking at, you know, whether it's, it's ready to drinks.

It's cocktails. There's a gigantic temperance movement. Yeah, alcohol products. Yeah, it's huge.

It's huge. For my perspective, you have to have them in your bars. You're, you're, yeah, you're leaving money on the table. In fact, people just probably like you're, you need to have them.

So I mean, you know, we might touch, we probably touched on this last time. I mean, obviously people drank more during the pandemic. So we had a little bit of a boom there for a while. I just can't take on.

I've, yeah. You know, but so talking about like, obviously California is an like, obvious example, but what are some of the other reasons in the world that have been specifically affected by some of these climate issues that are like driving the cost of wine up or perhaps even like driving wine production out of those regions? You know, but that's a great question. There's a, you know, you look at many European regions, you know, even just today, I was listening to podcast out of the UK, and they were talking about Bordeaux.

Bordeaux is, you know, they, when you think of fine wine producing regions in the world, you know, they're, they're one of the largest, one of the most successful for hundreds of years. Everybody knows Bordeaux. Everybody knows what they know, but they know that they are. There is, there is, you know, it's been interesting.

And then in Bordeaux, there's been a real movement towards, you know, environmental, environmentally focused production, whether that's certified or managed or by a dynamics tough part to do so because you're, you're so close to large bodies of water. So, you know, there's natural disease pressure. But Bordeaux, for the longest time, you know, we'll be focused on, on five red grapes, you know, you're Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Merlot, Malbec, Matipro, Dopeau, both in smaller amounts, you know, just over the last couple of years, they've allowed people to plant Portuguese varieties because they're going to be more so due to, to warming climates in the future. So that's a big, I mean, that's a pretty stuffy part of the world where business is done in suits.

You know, there's not tasting bars open to the general populace. You know, it's a very, you know, prestigious area in, in France. And they take tradition very seriously. Yeah, so it's like, for them to, that's the point, like for them to introduce any kind of new growing.

And there's also, there's a big movement now, and I forget, I literally had just listened to this morning, but there's, there's a big movement to actually rip up about 20% of the vines there, too, because there, there just isn't that market for anymore, which is unfortunate because there's there's a younger generation that's actually making some really exciting lines there. There's some really cool stuff, you know, in Antrim de Meer. There's some really cool stuff in kind of the centimillion satellite Appalachians, kind of all in front sack. Like there's, there is some great stuff that's being made that isn't the, you know, the three to four percent of the total quantity is of the classified growth that we're, you know, we're taught about in school.

So it's interesting to see, you know, when a region like that is adapting and making changes. They're like, you know, climate change is real because this is big money. This is, you know, these aren't small family run estates. They're owned by each of their own, they're owned by large conglomerates, the LVMHs of the world.

Like there's money money there. It's not just some mom and pop and we've been doing this for 10 generations. And the other thing in those regions that I learned about more recently is like the shift to, so you either have that where it's like these big conflumbers, like you say, like a well company, maybe owns this like or whatever. There's also like big wine wineries or like wine houses.

I don't know, I don't know, I have to describe it, but that are like trying to like, I was thinking about Gerard Bittron and like Southern Rome there where he had the son, like switched the entire production to organic farming, which is crazy thing to do for like that, for houses that are around that long and has the production that they already have. Like how many plots and land does that family have? Yeah, I mean there's certain parts of the world where that's an easier move, right? If you've got, you know, especially in Southern France where you've got some some very serious wins, whether it's a Chamonte or the Mistral, win is your friend in many aspects, it can be challenged when it does is that if you've got, you know, if you've got disease pressure, it keeps the, it keeps everything moving forward.

So there's less chance for things to settle and potentially ruin your mind. So having some wind is a great thing. But yeah, I mean that's a big move, right? You know, it's funny.

One of the brands I work with in California, McManus, which is, you know, it's a big winder. There's no doubt about it. Very popular here in town. Ridiculous and popular.

Like if you knew how many garage codes I had here in town, people actually think of their one right then. We could have this there if you don't let me say this, but I always thought that the melod retirement. It's, you know, the green box puts my kid through school. There's no doubt about it, but no, you don't need to add to that anyone that knows me understand.

But I mean, to my just side, I'll let you back to that. But that's a testament to, and maybe you don't hear this enough or I hadn't maybe told you, but it's a testament to how fucking good a job you've done in this, then it's right. So you've had your job, like that McManus, your job to sell that wine. And it's everywhere.

And like everyone, not only is it everywhere, it's in all the restaurants. And now people like it's ubiquitous that people want it in their homes. Like I had, I had you send it to my, Oh, yeah. I think it was your, it was like my stepson's grandmother.

Who in Stratford, because she wanted to petite verdova. I think it's a rock. Yeah. And so like congratulations.

Excellent work you've done here. The vice would be very happy with you. But anyway, get back to what you were saying about the Madison. It's interesting.

So McManus is certified sustainable, which I mean, sustainable, you know, there's it's it's not my favorite word. Why would you want to sustain something that isn't, you know, isn't good for the planet? So it's not in some aspects. It's not always regulated as a term.

I think it can be greenwashing in some aspects, but not always. Greenwashing means when you're using a term, to make it seem like you're doing the right environmental thing when most of everything else you do is bullshit. So you're just you're trying to capture, you know, it's like the, you know, to use a different analogy. It's like the, you know, when the bank puts up the rainbow flag during June and the right rest.

It's like, oh, yeah, we're so pro. But yeah. So, but one of the things, you know, and this is a point that was brought to me recently. And you know, it's it definitely has has changed some of my opinion on that is that so McManus has recently, and with their new vintage, dropped the weight of their bottles by about 30%.

So when a company of that scale can have that impact, that's more than like 30 of our, they've, it would take 30 of our other producers to all do the same thing, to have the same impact on the environment. Just the weight of the bottle. That's interesting. And then which is funny because, or ironic, or I'm not even sure if it's ironic, but like the fact that like one of the things that even like a rudimentary wine lover, and it looks for is like a heavy bottle.

Well, for sure. And in the late 90s and early 2000s, yeah, if you were starting out of winery and you're going to charge 200 bucks, you wanted the heaviest bottle possible. But I mean, the the cost of shipping that, and the environmental cost of shipping that, that is one of the biggest, you know, that was one of the biggest impacts on the environmental friendliness of a winery. Really?

So, like that, when they can do something like that at scale, yes, they're not organic. They're doing what they can in their vineyards to minimize spraying. So even something like cutting back, because of giant impact, when they can cut back on the amount of water they use water conservation. That again, has a much larger, greater impact on the environment than you know, the husband and wife that are farming firetakers that are doing, you know, biodynamic farming, which is awesome in their little plot of the world.

And that's not enough, because those are generally the wineries I look for. Right, but it's just like the bigger company is going to have a bigger impact. I mean, I was like, whatever, I'm just going to say this, but like, it's great that we all recycle our cans of Pepsi free or whatever the fuck, that's awesome. Great.

Like, done that saying you shouldn't do that. But when you learn that like, there's 100 companies in the world that are responsible for 99% of emissions, then your little recycling effort is not making a difference. So this is kind of on a scale you're talking about. So like a giant conglomerate, I don't know, the man who's even a conglomerate, I know they make a lot of wine.

It's a family owned business generation, but I mean, I would never say, hey, you know, we should go visit this, because I mean, it looks like a wine factory. Right. You know, it's not, you know, if you just want to see some tents, but they make a lot of wine. It's not romantic.

It's not romantic. It's not a way shape or form. But the impact of that company can have is actually, it's very important. It's a story to be told.

Right. And I feel the same way about Java, but maybe it's easier for him to do it, but it was an undertaking for them to switch, switch everything to organic farming and get the certification. Now, that's the other thing that is interesting to me is the certification, because there's so many, when we talk about, this is something that you'll be able to help us with. Natural wine, organic wine, there's certifications for this shit, right?

So you can get like whatever the symbol is on the bottle and like people can look for that stuff if it's something that matters to you or, but there are millions, well, millions of this maybe an exaggeration, but there are many, many, many wineries that are hundreds of years old that have been making wine that way forever and just not interested in paying the money to get the certificate. If you have to pay money for it. Oh, completely. I mean, for somewhere, you know, particularly a lot of the producers that are going to fall into the, whether it's organic, which just means, you know, no addition of herbicides, pesticides, fungicides, no additions to the vineyard during the production season, or taking that a step further and doing biodynamics, which is really, you know, everything, it's a self-containing farm, anything, inputs that you're using come from the farm itself.

You're also farming by the lunar calendar, which sounds kind of hocus pocus and a little bit weird, but no, I mean, like, you think about the impact that the moon has on bodies of water, right? That's, you know, we can see that, and plants are, you know, 90% plus water. So there is, it does make sense in some ways, and, you know, there's generally, if you have a wine that's been farmed by it dynamically, and many of the world's top, top lines are farmed in this way, it obviously does make it does have some sort of impact, even if we're not there science-wise for them to explain, but for many of these smaller producers, that's an additional cost. Yeah, and why would they do it?

Like, they're so many, I can't tell you how many people like you will come to taste wine with me, like, oh, this is definitely an organic wine or a natural wine or whatever it is, but they just don't want to pay for the, look that's simple on the label. If you're, you know, your production isn't that big and you're selling your wine every year, why would you just give somebody money, you can put a stamp on it, it doesn't make sense. So, you know, I, you know, I like, I love the idea of certification, I think it keeps you honest, I think there's, you know, it's important that way, but it also ties you into, you know, again, if you're a small farmer and you're super dogmatic and you have a year, maybe this year you just have to spray this a little bit, like, otherwise you're going to lose your whole crop. You know, if that's your income, or you're just going to be like, oh, well, sorry, I'm just not going to make any wine in a year because I'm, I'm organic.

Like, that, that's, that's your, sorry, kids, you're talking on school in September and we're not eating this way. Like, yeah, it's funny it would shit like this because it's like, it is a business, and like, it might be like a romantic family situation, hundreds, thousands of years, whatever, it might be a small plot of land in some area in France or Italy or whatever, but it's like, at the end of the day, these are people trying to make a living and like, you're going to do what you have to do to make your product. And you'll compare to, you'll compare to beer, compare to spirits, you know, like, you get one shot each year to do, that's it. It's a hard thing to do.

I can't, I can't imagine, like, I mean, people are like, oh, would you ever own a wine? I'm like, yeah, maybe if I won, like, 20 million, what I'm saying is like, here's a fucking lot of like a six million. It's, it's, I don't care how much money I lost your, it would be like the best job in the world. If your bread pit and angel is, yeah, I believe in the only, I believe in the only, I think they got a picture and everything's fine.

It's gotta be lose money. Because it's, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a stressful job. Being a farmer is a stressful job. Of course, you know, you're farming anything.

And I think it's fine. It's fine that a lot of people, do you find that a lot of people don't make the connection between like, making wine and farming? Oh, yeah, completely. I mean, that's, you know, that's not just something early, you know, when you're young.

I mean, that is something that many people, you know, they can be drinking wine in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and they don't, they have an idea of it in the back of their head. But they- It's like, oh yeah, yeah, it's farming. But like, no, but it's fucking farming. Yeah, it's farming.

It's not an, I mean, you could pay me to be like, literally, I remember picking a tobacco for like a summer and school. That's a tough job. Hey, yeah, I did for like six, I mean, it was good money and high school. It was pretty good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The costs on there, like, yeah, yeah, like farming is not an easy gig at any. Yeah, yeah, no, it's not. Have you seen that film The Living Vine?

No, that's the neural one that just came out, isn't it? Yeah, no, I have to. Yeah, so Babylon's just did like a collab with a princess cinema on that. Yes.

Yeah, so I went to see it. It was really, it was great. I highly recommend it. I think it's like barely an hour.

So you're in and out, like, but it's like, all these California natural winemakers. Yeah. And then the effect of the wildfires on their farming. And it's like, it really, really opens your eyes.

If you don't really know that much about it, and like, fuck, I'm not interested about it. I don't, I would never farm the day of my life, but I do, but watching something like that, I do recognize that like, making wine is farming. Like, maybe you don't know that unless, and this goes back to what I was going to ask you about earlier in our conversation is like, how do we get this education across that people don't want to take the courses? Like, it's tough, right?

Yeah, and that's a great question. Obviously, you know, for the average consumer to sign up for even like an eight-week program, I mean, that's a lot to ask. Any people just want to understand the basics and what great varieties do I need to know? I need to know a little bit about some countries, a little bit about regions, maybe a little bit about wine and food, but you can tell people this wine pairs with this, honestly, unless you spend some actual time tasting wines or food and understanding why it does, does it work?

You know, it's a moot point. It is because it's even in those courses, like I remember level two, and that was like the introductory to food and wine bearing. And basically what they tell you is, well, what works is the total opposite or the exact same? And yeah, I mean, wine and food pairing, it's not super difficult.

Like when you break wine down to its components, and you're looking at, you know, whether that's tannins, whether you're looking at sweetness levels, whether you're looking at acidity, when you can break it down into its components, and then the same thing with a dish. Now, a lot of times we just focus on the main protein, but it's the sauce that has a bigger impact. So when you can break it down and say, okay, well, this dish or this dish is mostly fat based, or has a heavy fat component. So I need a wine with some acidity that's either going to cut through that, or that's going to have, you know, those that fat is going to make the tannins and this wine taste smoother.

It's not, it's not super, super difficult to do. But a lot of what we're taught is, oh, well, this is squad one, it pairs with so tan. And you know, for the average consumer, they're just like quasi-eye, like, well, the other thing is like, some people just want to drink what they will like to drink. And that's totally fine.

If you only drink white wine and a red wine goes with this dish, you're not going to be like, oh, yeah, this is awesome. You're like, no, I fucking hate that. No, I'm enjoying my meal. I'm enjoying my meal.

So, you know, there is something they said, you know, I do, I'm a big proponent of pairing wine and food, and when you do it correctly, I think it makes, it elevates a meal, it elevates an experience. But there's also, like, you go for dinner with like six or eight friends kind of thing, right? You know, everyone's ordering something different. But you might just have a couple balls of one, you're going to be like, oh, you know, this, you know, what should we have that's going to work?

Like, you're going to order some lunch, you're going to eat your food, you're going to drink your wine. Everyone's going to have an awesome night. So, you know, I mean, you can look at if you look at, okay, well, if we order lighter reds and have a higher degree of acidity, there's probably a better chance it's going to work with a lot of things. But, you know, the whole table drinks California cat, just order California cat because everyone's going to be happier.

That's right. And like, it's not like it's going to hurt your meal. It's just like, maybe it doesn't enhance it in the way that a different wine would. And I think that goes at the end of the day to get to the other thing.

It's like, the reason, and this is a bit off topic, but the reason that we were going back to, we were talking about, I don't know if we were even recording, we were talking about this, but going back to like a chain style restaurant where it's the easiest place to bring a large group of people because they have something for everyone. Well, then also, they're all going to be eating different shit. You want to share wine. They all probably want like the whatever the most common popular wine is.

And they're all going to have fun. And it's not going to hurt your experience. It just might not enhance it to the level that like great food and wine parent can't. Yeah.

And I mean, obviously, I mean, the wine trade, I love wine. It's something I live and breathe. But wine can also just, wine doesn't need to be the center point of the evening. I just agree.

I just agree. But you know, when you have 20 people at, wine doesn't need to be like the focal point. Like, I mean, I want everyone to drink wine. I think that's amazing.

But I mean, it doesn't have to be, you know, you're there for a human connection. You're there to have fun. You're there to, you know, enjoy a great meal. You know, we're past, past the day of time.

I think, like, let's just get together and have a great time. And you know, maybe it's not the, you know, everyone doesn't have the perfect wine for their, for their halibut, but they're drinking something they enjoy and they're having a fun time. I think that's more. It's not going to harm the meal.

It's just, it's just not going to enhance in the same way. And so like, it's never going to be a negative. Like, you could make it like a positive. If you want to look at a ratio, it's like a plus five instead of a zero, but it's never going to be a negative five.

So unless you're like, even say, you've ordered halibut as an example, you know, we've got this white fish dish that's coming up, but I only drank red wine. So, you know, beforehand, drinking red, you know, the fish comes out. I don't have to like every bite I have of the day I drink red wine with it. I can eat my meal.

And then go back to the red wine. Everything is awesome. And it's so, it's so many, like, there's such a move towards like tapest out eating now to in North America. So how do you, like, disemposable to pair wine with like, you know, you could stop sharing or just, I mean, obviously, just doing champagne all night.

And I mean, we're still in my, you can't, and your night's going to be great. But you talk about maybe not. So that's a good question. So like, if you were eating a tapest style meal, would you recommend, like, just putting like maybe three or four different styles of wine on the table and then just letting people have at it?

Yeah, I mean, I think generally, if you're just looking for stuff that, you know, again, it doesn't need to be the highlight, but you want to, you want wine that's working with your dishes, you know, lighter whites, I know whites probably something that's got a higher degree of acidity than something that's fresh, that's clean, that's inviting me to want to take another sip and doing the same thing with reds. So whether that's, you know, bojale, Bartolino, perhaps Northern Italy, you know, maybe it's an Austrian red, something that's juicy and fresh. Without fungus. Without?

Yeah, good. Good. You know, we spell that out. No, yeah, but I do love that one.

B.M. But I mean, like, you know, you can pick that style of wine slightly chilled and it's going to be great. I'm going to turn it on an awesome time. So we'd be chilling all wine.

Yeah, I think, I mean, any red I drink, I throw on the fridge. I think you and I have talked about it in a thousand times. Probably, I probably said it to you when I brought wine. But I was, but I was, but I was, but I was, like, I've just gone to this headspace where I like my red wine, like it doesn't happen at home as much as I want to because I put it in the fridge and it's too cold.

And when I go to drink it, but like, and maybe I have planned the evening out that carefully. So I like, but a slight chill on red wine. I wanted every time. And there's been so many times where, you know, I've gone out and the wine has been stored behind the bar and it's a little bit warm.

If I've ordered a glass and it's just like, eating it up. Yeah. Well, or it's yeah. And you know, it's like, I'll just ask for an ice cube and people look at me and they're like, Oh, what do you mean?

It was what you do. It was what you do. I just leave it in there or maybe even just swirl it around. Yeah.

I mean, the fastest, the fastest, like if you've ever gone up, you know, you want to drink a ball of white really fast. I mean, you can throw it nice and it's all on your way for your 20 minutes or what you can do is pour your glass, put like five cubes in it, swirl it, take those cubes out your wine's fine in like, in a second and sure there's perhaps a little bit of delicious. No, 98% of the populace, they're not going to notice that. You know, what they are going to notice, you know, and I've done this in many restaurants and bars I've worked with where we just filled the shake of glass with ice, pour the wine in, strain it out right away at the ones that you need.

So yes, it's not the perfect mode of service, but it's more than desert. Okay, not the perfect mode at once. Yeah. It's also, I mean, like look, we're drinking fermented grape juice.

Like yes, there's a lot of pomp. Yeah, not to diminish anything that you have done with your career, but like, at the end of the day, we're all just becoming wine here. Let's relax. Yeah, totally.

I mean, like we're drinking. Look, there's a million reasons why I love wine. I mean, I love, you know, I love reading books. I love to learn.

I mean, and there's so much to learn about wine and whether that's the science of it, whether that's regions, whether that's grapes, whether that's, you know, the history of the region that it came from, whether that's, you know, kind of a, you can, you can make the, you know, you can make the, you know, the art connection to wine, you know, every year is there where there's so much stuff to learn about wine, which to me is what interests me. It's what keeps me going, but it's also, you know, you drink wine because you get a little fun buzz off it. It's so fucking tasty. Yeah, it's just, it's so funny.

And just drink what you'd like. Okay, I got three more questions for you, and then we'll we'll bring this to an end. One, when did you realize that wine was going to be a passion? Do you have a moment or do you have a year or?

Yeah, you know, my, I spent most, you know, my early part of my restaurant career working with, with change, you know, I worked with, with Jack Asters for a long, I mean, that was the kind of entry. What kind of wine was selling at Jack Asters? Jackson Triggs, probably selling in, so this is instant. You see, but yeah, I didn't like wine at that point.

It was, I was, you know, the fact one of the first wines from there that actually liked was Fetser Gewerst-Dormayner from California. I believe they even had it. Gewerst-Dormayner. Yeah, it's, you know, and this is like, we're talking the 90s, so this is a while ago.

What I liked about it was that it was a little bit sweet, it was a little bit off-drive, so for some of it's a novice that, you know, was drinking raincoats and smart-off ice at the time. It was a stepping, you know, stepping stone. It was also cool to say, like just being able to say, Fetser Gewerst-Dormayner, like I felt cooler than I obviously was. But I mean, I started with the Jack Asters, you know, I opened up the first four milestones in the province.

So I didn't come from a wine background, but most of my friends at the time worked for fine dining restaurants in Toronto. So some very high-end places, you know, they worked with great chefs, you know, they worked at Susser, they worked at like, literally, and we would get together after work and, you know, I'd bring my smart-off ice, I'd bring these awesome wines, I'd be like, sure, whatever, didn't quite get it. So I took a wine course in 1999 at George Brown College, thinking, okay, this is what I'm going to do for a career. I need to get, I need to understand what these guys are talking about.

I still remember, like, I don't remember being so proud of being able to list the five-board over at Great City of Mine. That was a song in Toronto at the time. You know, in hindsight. But it's a big moment.

I totally have. Like, I think that that moment is, like, I mean, the issue you've done to get to the level of knowledge you have is like, there's many levels where it's like, okay, fuck, this was the hardest part. But that was the biggest part because that was like starting the fucking journey. Totally.

And just starting, I don't, I remember a tasting, specifically in and around that time, it was at Heller's stage. And, you know, they were saying, okay, so they poured us some wine from Beryl and they said, you know, this one tastes like XX and vanilla. And I could actually smell vanilla in the class. And it was just like, oh, shit.

Okay, maybe there is actually something to this. And that was just, that was very clear. Yeah. It's like, oh, okay.

So maybe, you know, they're not just saying whatever they want. No, actually, okay, I smell vanilla too. There is something going on here. So those were, those were kind of two moments for me.

And it's, you know, it's been an ongoing education since then. I mean, I'm so currently enrolled in wine courses. I'm still trying to learn. And it's because there's so much more to learn.

And I love it. And I truly truly do. You obviously do. You still wouldn't be doing it.

So, you know, there's many. And I'm a huge proponent for this. I think, you know, with any semi-A program, there should be a recertification process. Oh, yeah.

Like, like when you get to the 65, you have to be in your driver's license. What? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Yeah. I mean, plus it's hard to keep up with.

If you don't, like I, I'm not saying that I'm studying it every day anymore. So like my life slips all the time. And like somebody will ask me a question at the bar and I'm like, honestly, I would have to look it up again. So I agree to be at your expert level, to be at my level, doesn't matter.

But like it could be at your level, of course are you beating yourself. Are you following yourself to semale A? You know, you took a course in 2005 and you hadn't studied anything since. And I mean, and look, and there's, there's definitely an argument about certification, you know, some of the greatest semale as I know you know, guys like Jamie Drummond in Toronto, Peter Boyd were not certified songs, but they were super knowledgeable, but they also kept learning.

So they may not have had the pin, but they kept learning. Yeah, it's like doing a language. You're going to lose it unless you're practicing. Totally.

And the wine world changes so much. And I'm not saying you need to do the whole course over again, but there should at least be, if you're a certifying body for a semalease, there should be a continuing edge. So, OK, so if you took this course in 05, by 2010, you'd have taken at least three out of these 20 continuing ed courses, because the wine world continually changes. And if you're basing, if you're skewing the people what you learned in 2005 as fact, I mean, it's changed so much.

So I'm a big, and that's what drives me. It's not because, you know, I mean, part of this also, I can read something and forget it. I can write it. I can read it a few times, especially if you're drinking wine at the same time.

But it's an ongoing field of study. All right, I've got two more for you, and these are more fun. It's been fun all the time. I mean, less educational.

Let's just say that. Honestly, I could sit here and talk to you about wine forever. That's probably why you're so quickly back on the show. But like, honestly, talking wine with you is amazing, Rob.

Like, you're in the level and knowledge is amazing. And but you don't, it's not dirty talking with you. It's like, you just, it's conversational. I know you can get dirty if you want to.

But like, and I've been in conversations with you that are a little bit more like that. Sometimes we've been at a tasting together. But like just this kind of conversation, like I think people are gonna love listening to this. So thanks again for coming on the show.

But now we'll do a couple of fine questions. What are your favorite documentary? And what's your favorite documentary about wine? And what's your favorite movie about wine?

That's not a documentary. That's a good question. Documentary, so one that I'm gonna say it's my favorite because I've watched it probably three times. It's a sour grapes.

That's mine. Which is about what I think is about. And again, going back to continuing to listen to podcasts, you know, it's interesting. Rudy Kerwin is actually consulting with a company now about how to detect things, which is really interesting.

What way to come from the poll circle? Yeah, I mean, so Rudy Kerwin, you know, it was someone that's, you know. Let's give it away. Let's do that.

Watch that. We make it not into my favorite documentary about wine as well. Deep in the wine as we are. It's a great, it's a great watch.

Because it's not, it's super educational, but it's also almost like watching a documentary on mystery. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fantastic.

It's so utter. They did such an amazing job. And what's your favorite film about wine? I've found a lot of wine.

It's hard to say. I mean, people really love sideways. I love sideways. I mean, love polity.

I think sideways is a good movie. What other good films would be worse than wine is kind of the protagonist in it. Let's see. That's a tough, I mean, I really like bottle shot, but it was based on a true story.

I also, but yeah, but that's a film. I love that one as well. I think it did. I think it's made it too.

And it's super, it's also educational. And it's like a massive moment in wine history. Oh, completely. And it's one of the most important based on the judgment of Paris.

And I thought that was so well done. All right, well, you just named my favorite documentary and my two favorite wine films. So that's amazing. If I pick them, I would pick the same ones.

OK, this is the last one. And I don't want you to get into a specific chateau or vineyard or house. You're on a desert island. You only have two grapes to drink the rest of your life.

One white, one red. One white, well, if there are only two, it's Charnet and Pino, because then I can also drink champagne. Yeah, there it is. There it is.

I love Charnet. I love Pino. I can't always afford both of them. I like both of them the same as champagne.

But those would probably have had to drink it for the rest of my life, because I think you could see versatility and both. And what about regions? So I'll give you one more question. What are your favorite wine regions?

Champagne is obviously one of them. Champagne. Especially in the last six months, I've really been more and more excited about champagne. I think it's the most exciting wine region in terms of what's happening there these days.

I've also gotten way more into it recently as well. A lot of it through you to be honest with you. But also my love of champagne is going so much. I was like, the problem is you just can't question and paint all day.

Yeah, I mean, it's a pricey wine. You're generally starting the 70s. But I don't know if you should. It's 3H's.

Heartburn, hangover, hurt your well. Yeah. He's come up with that. Yeah.

That is amazing. Wow, that is amazing. Obviously, I spent a lot of time in Italy, as much as we love. I think there's diversity there, no matter what it is, white, red, sparkling.

There's amazing wine. So you can go ahead and say, be the last of us. But yeah, to my future, Compaña, I think, Cecilia, for sure. There's great wine across the country.

I love the people. I like the food, the culture. But Italy, for me, even the last couple of years, it's been really eye-opening to see what's happening in Central Coast in California. Not just Santa Barbara, but as you go further inland, through Long Park, and up that whole kind of elbow at the bottom, there's some amazing wine that's being made there.

Some just truly, truly great younger producers that are just knocking it apart, challenges the prices when they get here to Ontario. Unfortunately. Unfortunately. But then what I think about my favorite.

Yeah, Southern California these days is super hot. Italy is always hot. If you want to, I mean, I could drink Barolo, and even though even the lesser wines, whether it's Garbera and Dolce. Give me a good blanket, Rosalinda.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, wait 10 years to drink. That's right. You're going to go right away.

Yeah, I know. All right, Rob, always super fun. That was super fantastic. Thank you for the wine.

Thank you for the conversation. We could probably do this 100 more times. Maybe we should just make this more of a regular. Just like that, quarterly.

Yeah, with Miller. That's a good idea. Yeah, we might look into that because this is super fun, man. I love you, too.

Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you, all it is. Yeah. Well, happy post holidays.

Hey, everyone. Hopefully we're still here. It's two weeks away. I'm going to have a fucked up place.

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for coming.