E214 Beckaly Franks

On this week's episode, Beckley Franks joins the show from Hong Kong. Originally born in Hawaii and raised in Idaho, Beckley got her start in the industry at an early age when her parents ran a bar in Pocatello, Idaho, named the first national. At 19, Beckley moved to Portland where she worked in high-volume and performance bars. Looking for a change of pace, Beckley decided to make the move to craft bartending.

Beckley started entering competitions and eventually learned the art of cotailing. This in turn led to a consulting gig in Singapore and making the contacts that eventually enabled her to move to Hong Kong in 2015 and co-found the Pontiac. We talked with Beckley about the perseverance she had in landing jobs early in the career and how nothing came easy. We talked about Beckley's latest venture and transition to creative director and co-founder along with her wife of Hungry Ghost and several new venues.

Call me out and Artifacts bar plus a host of other topics. We had a wonderful interview with Beckley and you'll love it too. Enjoy the show. Okay, we're back with another episode of the industry podcast.

Kip with you, Dan with you, what's happening? Not much. I bought some lottery tickets this morning so I better win otherwise I'm ten of screwed. That'll be so- Great, they're on the Redneck retirement plan.

Correct, correct. Well, that's amazing. What's it do with yourself? Ah, you know, that's amazing that we do with sitting all the clocks back and I know it's like we already are house today that it was already pitch blackout.

Yeah, what a change, eh? Six o'clock. Yeah, it's dark, dark, dark. I'm glad we're still doing this.

Yeah, it's just all switch to UTC time and maybe much easier. And then screw everyone up but it's still working out for the best. For us, yes. Which is what matters.

Yeah, we're recording actually on the US election day so you may or may not hear us again. We'll see how that all plays out. It's America and then Canada and Mexico might burn down with a couple of days. And we'll have, if things go the wrong way, we'll be headlong into a recession, I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, I think Trump said it already wants to build a wall between Canada and the US now too again when he gets elected. So if you're definitely going to enact that amazing tariff plan of his which will definitely affect our economy. So that's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, I should have worked well.

Yeah, well, as we were talking before we started recording the early polls are looking better. Thank God. Thank God for everybody. Including I guess we'll be joining us shortly even though she no longer lives in the US.

But she's nervous, I can tell. That's it. Becca Lee Frank will be joining us in just a second. Before we get to her, we should mention that if you like what we're doing here on the podcast, you should subscribe rate review.

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And if you'd like to be a guest on the show or provide support for the show, it's info at the industry podcast club CLUB or it you can DM us at the industry podcast on Instagram where the artworks from the great Zacana exists. He does all that for us and he's amazing. Zacana at Zacana.co. If you're in the kitchen, Waterloo region, come check out my bars, Sugar Run, Downtown Kitchener at Sugar Run Bar on Instagram.

Babylon Sisters at Babylon Sisters Bar, Uptown Waterloo. That's what you can find out what's going on at those two fantastic spots. And if you are in need of wine or spirits, it's Kip at Babylon Sisters dot CA or wine from Terroir Imports, Malewar, Winery in Beamsville and Alora Distilling Company. So with all that out of the way, let's get to our guest.

It's Becca Lee Frank showing us from Hong Kong. How are you Becca Lee? Good evening guys. It's my morning on my side for those that don't know about 12 hours at time travel ahead of y'all.

Yes. So I was like, Wednesday, my Wednesday, your Tuesday. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, perfect.

Thank you very much for joining us. Yeah, thanks. This is these time, different things are a huge pain. He asked for usually the guests.

So we really appreciate you coming on super early for someone in the world. Yeah, being flexible and I make myself as possible. I'm like, I'm a pillows, got my coffee. It's actually kind of funny.

It's funny that we're doing the podcast today. Like as I'm not trying to make it like a political by any means, but like, but we're all, but we're all alive. So this is the most important day ever. Ever.

You know what I mean? It's not. She's up there in the ranks with like we're going to remember this day. So I might as well record it.

Right. Well, it'd be pretty funny because by the time people listen to this, we'll already know what happened. So the people either going to be laughing at us or crying with us. Yeah.

Yeah. Man, for sure. We fight the zombie apocalypse. It was an epidemic.

It was an epidemic. It was an epidemic. It was an epidemic. Okay.

So let's go back in your career. How did you first get involved in the service industry? So I, you know, I need to make it ask this question. I'm not trying to be generic, but I'd like to say that like, hospitality specifically bartending is part of my DNA when I was growing up.

So I was born in Hawaii, but I was raised in Pocatello, Idaho. My mom and stuff all their own, like many different businesses. But one of them was they owned a bar called the First National, which was awesome. Like I always look back at the First National.

I even like use it in seminars and stuff like that, like origin stories and things, you know, for those of us that like really truly just love of like a bar, you know what I mean? With live music, full tables and not necessarily a honky tonk, but just like a solid bar. Yeah. Like we have my mom and step-down wedding reception there.

We have my step-downs week there. Like the, our world kind of did revolve our world and our community, at least when I was growing up kind of like did revolve around this bar. And yeah, no, I mean, you know, it's a shit hole then and it's probably still a shit hole but I thought it was great. And then I always referenced like I can still remember the way like a Shirley Temple taste because we had and then like a very old hotel or like we were storing an old hotel, like crazy old hotel where right next like on the same block as the bar and then next to the hotel we had a we'll call it a Renaissance bookstore next to that, which is basically a headshot.

For the, for anybody listening to the Renaissance is in quotes. Anyways, so I grew up in a bar, I grew up in a bar, I grew up in a definition. And then when the holidays would come around Thanksgiving and Christmas birthdays everybody would always come over to our house. So it all kind of always felt like an extension of it.

I didn't go around seeking out, you know, becoming a bartender and, you know, like building such a, like such a career path and hospitality because of that. But I think that it's what made it feel so native to me anyways. I think there's something about the extension of the hospitality and building community that like again, I already knew inherently. So also like it also aids in like this weird sort of like it's kind of odd to call it a purest mentality, but like, especially now living in Asia, like things have evolved and, you know, not in any connotation whatsoever, but like on con Asia is like always going to be 10 years behind like Western style of hospitality and such like that.

There'll be much more fast track in other areas. But when it comes to hospitality, just because of cultural differences, trends and everything like that are very far behind and casual style of hospitality and that you can sit with us mentality. That's just still like a little bit behind. So I'm very purest when it comes to like what I think a bar is.

I still see it as a public and stable. I still see it as something so much bigger than trends or cocktails or styles. And you know, and I see it as, yeah, I mean, a place of the bills community and I'm not an ox, when I'm sure that we'll talk about a few things in this in this chat. So when I talk about building community, I'm not also not saying like anything LGBT focused or anything like that, or even though, of course, it's part and parcel to it.

Just saying like the way I was raised and where I'm from, like, it's an extension of your family's an extension of where you go is an extension of your living room. It's just part, it's just part of it. So when I in so I am from the US, so from the being in the US, you have to be 21 years of age in order to 10 bar, but you can usually start in hospitality when you're like 16, 17 things like that. And I did.

And then I was also did many other things as well. I worked in fashion, worked in music, worked in the snowboard industry, all of my early twenties, but I was found myself getting far. I was of age getting recruited into an opportunity to do something else that was closer to hospitality. So when I was 20, I got recruited slash asked to try out for this bar called Thunder Ranch, which is like a coyote ugly on steroids.

And I'm 39 now. So I was 20 then. It was like cool. And I say try out because we had to audition, we did live choreographed dance routines and all that stuff.

And so I actually got hired at my first bar before I was 21 and had my 21st birthday there and all that jazz. And that's, you know, that was the beginning of the end. No, I'm just kidding. So it's sort of just as always naturally pulled me in that direction.

And, you know, and then I've just continued to lean in. I was, of course, keeping my other other things that I like to do in the career path, like close to me, but I really found a passion for it. You know, I've like, I found a passion with connecting with people. I'm a performance bartender.

Like, I'm like, I'm, like, I'm polar ends of the spectrum. I'm like, I'm happy. Someone's just like me to any bar pouring a pint and talking shit and getting to know somebody, creating that space. You know what I mean?

And it doesn't matter who they are. And I'm also on the polar opposite side, just as happy doing a choreographed dance routine or like screaming from the top of the bar. I would say where I'm like, least happy in that sphere is when things have to be like really, really formal and refined. Yeah.

I can do it. And I find, I find purpose in it by all means, but I say, I would say like the end of the spectrum of like what the style of art I mean, I like the most are like those either ends. But when it becomes less about the, whether it's, when it becomes less about the transfer of energy. And connecting with somebody one on one or like with a group or whatever or your transfer and energy and like a high performance value kind of scenario, those are the ways that I like it the most probably just because I like music so much.

So, but when it becomes less about the connection and more about the cocktails when I get less interested. How do you feel like you're like, you're talking about like a sort of your DNA is in hospitality because of how you were raised with your mother and your stepfather owning the bar, et cetera. How do you feel like that has affected your perspective on socialization, humanity, dealing with people inside and outside of the industry? Well, so I mean, that kind of goes back to what I was saying, right?

It's like, I think that I've, I think that I've, Paris is probably not the right word, but maybe it allows me to be more empathetic and have it like, because when you understand things or at least you can see things and again, for better or worse, right? Like saying I grew up in a bar doesn't necessarily suggest that there's a whole lot of structure depending depending on like, you know, what that kind of environment was like. So this pros and cons to it, right? But it allows you to be, you see a lot of different walks of life.

So even you know a little bit more about business right away, but you also like learn a lot about empathy and humanity a little bit, right? Like it also, yeah, like it makes you an incredible judge of character. I find absolutely. You learn, I mean, like if you're six years old and you're going to get a Shirley Temple at the bar and like I'm allowed to, because everybody knows that, you know, I'm the owner's daughter or whatever, and then like go back over to some, you know, it's a small town being the rules were a little bit more, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the time and I go, you get to see a little bit more. You might not understand at all, but you get to see a little bit more. And so I would say that I'm a little bit more adjusted to humanity or different walks of life or to the different characters that, you know, being around the bar atmosphere can often provide.

And also all of those characters would have come over to our house as well. Like we were very much a culture. What I say, like, yeah, that's what I mean, like kind of grow like, like I always say, like I grew up in the industry because like basically my first job was as a bartender and then I kind of grew up doing it. I did other jobs as well, but like my first real job was a bartender and then I kind of always did that thing.

So I kind of grew up in the industry, but that's not even close to like my parents and owner bar, right? So it's like you literally grew up in the end. Literally. And this industry does shape how you are as a person in such a unique way because your whole life is hospitality.

And I definitely think it makes you more polite person at least, right? Because you know the shit that people have to listen to on the other side. But also having an element of like, fuck around and find out as well. Oh, 100%.

I mean, there's fights to as well, right? But like, wait, the Francis of I meant like the fucking DMV or something. And I see the way that people are relating to other people at the end. Like the people being rude to other people bothers me so much more than I think it does.

Someone who hasn't done the service industry side of it. Oh, I mean, for sure. Oh, gosh. I mean, even like you said DMV, I just think airport is like all the time.

Airport even more so it's almost like it's like, I've been irritated at the airport as well. So I'm already getting like, you know, but I try to, but like I actually probably do my best. Like I like usually try to like if there's somebody visibly frustrated, I'm like, go over and I mean, I don't like. I just, you're not taking it on the people who just fucking work there.

Oh, you know, so yeah. And actually get like, you know, not visceral, but like you can physically feel uncomfortable and frustrated. And when you see people treated, like it's just their job. And can you imagine how rough that job is?

Like I haven't even, I often somebody like when I'm at the airport, I'm often so many times like how did you even get here? Like I'm sure the benefits are really good. It works with their schedule. Like, but I'm like, how, how did you become a TSA?

They'll really? And a lot of them come here. It's the only thing that you would say, okay, and why are you like how, you know what I mean? Yeah, maybe it's only got a job.

I'm like, I respect, like it's got to be so hard because there's no, there's so often very little gratitude. So, you know, I'm a bar owner, right? I've been 10 bar for since since they taught, you know, I always say like, of course, like it'll be the first one to clean the toilet. And I am and like I am.

But in so we've and like, so that's like behind the stick, but in front of the stick, you know what I mean? Like we deal with unruly customers and things like that from time to time, but we have the tools to diffuse these situations most often. And if we're worth our wait and salt, like we usually can work a situation that ends up everybody's like, okay, dokey, but we said it's usually a return of like a return of energy or return of gratitude or something because we're offering something that usually somebody wants. But in like, but in like a DMV situation, it's just like, or you know what I mean?

Or like, or the airport, it's like, where's who's giving you the love and you're right? Because we have something they want booze, right? Yeah, like, you know, like, you know, like, oftentimes anybody's pointing up to the bar, like whether they want to be left alone or not, they still want to be left alone in a public space, right? So there's always going to be like a tiny element of like wanting to be seen or going to go to your because you could read a home, you know what I mean?

But you choose to read a bar because maybe like ambiance, you know, maybe don't really want to be talked to you, but there's an element of connection. There's a least a little bit of an element connection somewhere underlying that somebody's putting themselves out there for so the element of being seen. So the give and take in that in our situation is much more fluid than I did in something else. So yeah, so I think I mix, you know, I think there's a lot of elements to it making more sympathetic and if you've experienced an epidemic for sure.

And then the pros and cons of that as well as that you are going back to what you're saying, you're much more sensitive to environments that are happening when you're not in the bar or, you know, restaurant atmosphere, which sometimes I'm sure that you feel like you wish you could turn that off a little bit. Sometimes, yeah. I can't. And I'm like, and I'm like grossly empathetic and I'm pretty sure I understand where it comes from going back to like the lack of structure and years, which I've only recently discovered.

Like, I can't turn off my empathy. Like I can feel everybody's and hyper kinetic energy like my frequency is super high. I have very kinetic energy. I'm just like out here, frequency up here and then I can feel everybody else.

It makes it like sometimes just like daunting just to be out in the world. If that makes sense, you know, sensory overload sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

Everyone either. So it's like, yeah, but you know, the desire to want to make sure that people are comfortable. It's always there. It's the eyes and they that after a while, right?

It's like if you can sense when someone's not uncomfortable in a social situation and then it's like you turn on your, your sensors and then you go to work even in like, even if you're at a party or something. It's like, I can now sense when there's someone uncomfortable in that room and I feel like it's my, I, I've gotten older. I've learned to be like, well, maybe that's not my job every single time, but like forever. It was like, I felt like it was my job to find the uncomfortable person and make them feel comfortable.

Yeah. And it's subconscious, right? Yeah. It's subconscious.

So I'm not trying to be like, all like getting into stuff, but I recently, which is obvious when you actually like zoom out and look at it. But so I recently learned that like empathy is, I was like, oh, I'm born empathetic or whatever. And like I think to a certain degree we are, but like when you're really, we end up being super empathetic is actually like a, as a learned response from having like pretty traumatic like upbringing and some things like that, or there's lack of control. So when you're constantly in a situation growing up, maybe constantly is like up to, but like when you find yourself in situations growing up, we're like, you're looking for what's wrong.

So you can figure out to make it right. So you can control the environment or stabilize the environment. And then when you like grow up, that's what you apply. That's what you're like, your empathy comes from that side.

Like, so like if you, so if you apply that sort of thought process into like what we do. So, you know, 20 people can be in the room, but you can find the one person there's something wrong with. And that's who you end up focusing on, or you know what I mean? Like, because that is a trait that you've learned over time as like a trauma risk.

And I know why it'd be, by the way, like, oh my god, I'm, I'm just traumatic. I just can see the direct correlation to it. Yeah. It's interesting as well.

And I was like, oh man, can't you just let go? Right. Yeah. But you can monetize it, apparently.

Exactly. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about obviously, so you grew up in the US, you start doing the bar jobs there. What like, how, because I don't want to take up too much of time is very early for you, but I want to get to like the whole Hong Kong experience obviously.

So, because it's the most, oh yeah, you've got to be your part. So it's the most, because that's like the most fascinating part obviously of your career. How did you end up in Hong Kong? So it's like got balls of steel.

No, I do fold, I suppose. I was working in Portland, or so I born in Hawaii, raised in Idaho, moved to Portland when I was 19. That's where I did like high volume crop high volume bartending, like performance bartending. And then in 2008 in recession, it was conveniently at the same time where I was like, I want to get into crap.

I was like, it was wild. It was so hard to get a job. Like, it was, it was, I can't even explain how hard it was to get a job. And I'm like, oh, it was just crazy.

Anywho, finally got a job at casual fine dining, like rotisserie, beast road place, and then get my head down from there. And that's when I studied like, studied wine with ISG, which is like, probably like, anyways, it's not court, but anyways, I still studied wine. I got my first cocktail competition to get my head down until I finally like, shout out to my way to Clyde Comin, and was there for two and a half, three years, just long enough to get where I was going and not get fired. And I was like, but like, anyway, so got to Hong Kong, I, in 2012, I competed in 42 below, which is a, which is a global cocktail competition.

42 below, so I'll go use the, oh, my party. I don't even know if it's still around, actually. Anywho, I was on a team with Ken Fos and Steve Schneider, and we won that competition. So it was the first, I was the first global competition ever won, the only global competition ever won.

Look, I just stacked a CV, right? So then I had like, then I like a little weight in my deck. And then I, then this guy, David came in to Clyde Comin one random day and he was working for Discus, the Distilters Council of the US, and they were going over to Singapore to teach about American trends and whiskey. Clyde Comin, which is no longer around, which is the best place if you ever had a chance to go, was to a whiskey-focused bar.

So I had the knowledge. And so because I had like, because I won that competition, they were like, over and back away over to teach about American trends and whiskey. And so landed that gig. So landed that little consulting gig and went over in 2014.

And so there's that. So I called Singapore my like gateway country into Asia. Plus simultaneously in my career, I personally reached my ceiling in Portland. I was never going to become like, I opened bars with my ex-boyfriend and those bars were very successful.

They're like German pubs and stuff like that. And he's opened many things in a sense. And then I didn't want to open a bar in Portland. I was around 2930 at this time.

And I knew I didn't, and my only other option in my head was to go to New York. And I actually like, I mean, I love New York, would never mind living there someday, but it wasn't something that I was like, that I wanted to do. And I always knew that I wanted to live abroad, oddly enough on my mother's side of the family, I was putting up like a bunch of, in my immediate family, we have Chinese, Filipino, Hawaiian, and Thai. So like actually have my cousins are like, a lot of Asian.

So ironically, and my grandparents traveled the world, my aunt traveled the world. And so like, even though I come from like a small town and like really like modest, I'll bring in everything like that, like traveling. And even though my mom and like said that in traveling stuff like that, like traveling was always something that was very like, on the car, something you should do. So I always had the desire to live abroad.

And even when I was dating my ex at the time, I was like, we're here building your bars right now. And so I was like, I'm going to be here. I'm doing this for you. It was about a five year window.

And then I'm going to go do whatever I want to do and that's either going to be part of our our journey or I'm going. So needless to say, people that I met in at the 42 below competition, which is in New Zealand, that was like a stepping stone going to Singapore to doing that consulting was a stepping stone. And then so by the time that I got recruited into the equity position to come up in the Pontiacan Hong Kong in 2015, I had already like been somewhat manifesting a global change anyways and was just already mentally and ready to be in that space. So when they were like, hey, do you want to move to Hong Kong and open a bar, I was like, yes, does that make sense?

Yeah, exactly. And then along the way that led me to that place. It's not like it's like, yeah, it's not like it's going to hang like happen overnight where you just live a situation also and I'm going to Hong Kong, like there has to be that sort of process. Yeah, exactly.

And I, but I reached my ceiling. I only knew that I wasn't going to move to New York and cut my teeth like I had already cut my teeth. I'd already done it. I've worked my way.

I'd done this shit. You know, like as far as I was concerned, like I reached my ceiling and things that I wanted to do and I didn't want to own my own bar in Portland. I love Portland. I've been in, I'm three habits, everything, right?

It's just like one amazing city in a world of like amazing cities and amazing places and it's just more to learn. So in April 2015, I get a message on my phone from my friend, Michael Callahan. He's like, he was working for proof and company. He opened the bar called 20 Hong Kong Street in Singapore.

Due to the success of that bar, they started a distribution company for a smaller, smaller batch artisanal spirits and, and the course and stuff like that. And then proof and company opened up a chapter in Hong Kong. And so what they did was recruitment, education and distribution. Michael Callahan was hired to close this bar called Fatty Crab.

Well, it was a bar and a restaurant and like put something into it. And so he started conceptualizing what is now the Pontiac ironically being on a podcast. He was on a podcast with my former teammate, Steve Schneider from employees only who now Steve Schneider has everything. So you know, I haven't said that.

But great that, big time Steve Schneider, he was on a team for the US team in 442 below. So that's how we knew each other. Michael was on a podcast with Steve. Michael and I knew each other.

And Michael was talking about this bar and Steve was like, well, there's only one person you can call and he's, I see, you should probably call her. So that was happening. Yeah. And then I was on a dance floor and I was like, oh, this is Michael Callahan texting me.

And then he was like, hey, do you want to move to Hong Kong? I have an idea. I was like, I do want to move to Hong Kong because I'm crazy. So yeah, I mean, you're not joking.

You take some balls to fucking just be like, but like you said, the process, like you wouldn't have been ready for the Singapore staff and New Zealand staff, right? So yeah, man, exactly. And like, oh, you know, the roads were leading that way. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't just absolutely like, I mean, sort of, also like when, I mean, I'm like, I'm trying not to be like, whoa, whoa, or anything like that.

But I do think things about like, you know, like the process and all that kind of jazz and like manifestation and also just doing your best to be present a little bit. And like my good friend of mine was going to Bali. Actually, this isn't about that. Anyways, needless to say, when I was flying back from Singapore, we had to lay over in Hong Kong and like the Hong Kong airport is just like Jurassic Park to me.

I mean, now I know it like the back of my hand is home, the airport is home. But it's just surrounded by like just just green mountains and green rolling hills everywhere, which is just, I was like, I remember being at the airport coming home from Singapore being like, how am I in the Hong Kong airport? Like how am I even in Hong Kong right now? What, you know, I remember being like, wow, that just feels crazy.

And then like less than a year later, I live in Hong Kong. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So there was, it wasn't completely out of left field, but it was, it was enough along the path that I, and I was already mentally and emotionally ready.

Yeah. So I was already, so that's what made it an easy. Yes. So I think that like because of the process, leading up to that point, there was no like fear or anything like that.

And also like I have to be, if I, if I would have over researched like, oh my God, what song, I didn't do any of that. My like, I, and so like with the motto of, or like when I talk about the Pontiac, like it's like a hot rod engine, it doesn't look left, it doesn't look right. It just goes fast and just goes straight and fuck, fast. I think that's an extension of also like my personality and the process of it is, it just, you just had to go.

I mean, I let anything else sort of like, if I did anything else other than just like pack my shit, which was a lot, I'm an adult woman, right? Like I'm 30 years old. Like I have, I've got cars, I've got things, you know, like I'm, you know, let's rip all that out and just move across the world. But I mean, yeah, so that's how I always Michael Calhan, I suppose he's the one that asked me to move to Hong Kong and I was ready to move.

And you were saying earlier that Hong Kong's a little bit behind and it's going to, well, quite a bit behind and it's going to happen in say New York or even Portland, right? So we always joke like even like the bars that I opened in this tiny town kitchen in Waterloo in Ontario, it's like, well, we're a little bit behind Toronto, which is a little bit behind New York, which is a little bit behind London. So it's like, are you partners with Kate? Kate.

No, let me know. Nevermind. From in what town? Kate who?

Nevermind. We'll go back to it. We'll go back to it when we're not. Okay.

Okay. Yeah. So no, I'm not. But it's a short answer to that.

But like, I always feel like we're so far behind and like my city is so far behind that even introducing and unfortunately the city is a little too small. So introducing new ideas here is very difficult because they're just not enough population to support them, right? So you're talking about like the delay to Hong Kong. Did you find that as an advantage or disadvantage bringing your newer sort of American ideas out there?

Well, what do you call them necessarily American ideas as far as like cocktails go and things like that? I hope you'll. I'm sort of being honest. I think I'm just going to be cozy.

So yeah, thanks. Yeah. I mean, like zero qualms. What I did bring initially, so when Michael was conceptualizing what is now upon you, like obviously I came in and changed things and evolved to be what it is now.

But like we just had our nine year anniversary. So like things have evolved quite a bit. It wasn't so much about the cocktails. My cocktails putting craft cocktails in the setting like a craft cocktail neighborhood die bar that was primarily female.

I'm queer. So no matter what, it's going to be a queer space anyways. But initially, and also you have to think about like when we're talking about how Hong Kong is different culturally, I'm not really talking all that much about local Hong Kong people, whether you're Hong Kong, like it's a very Western place as well. You know, a lot of people are Asian, more Canadian or Chinese, more Canadian or like a lot of the people that live here.

So first of all, a lot of people that are from Hong Kong went to school in England or Canada. And then but a lot of people that like, but it's also just a massive expat culture because it was a financial hub. So the hardest thing for me, like to adjust to again, coming from like Idaho and Portland. And Portland is like, we're like, keep more than we're like, right?

We're like, and just the other man, it's like the man, you know, and moving to Hong Kong, the greatest culture shock to me was like, just so many white dudes in suits. For me, that was like pretty, I was like, what is this? And there was like thousands of them. The population in Hong Kong was much different than the expat packages were huge.

These financial packages were like, you just pay somebody to come over, you know what I mean? You put them up, you give them all of this money. So they just have just dudes in suits, working 12 hours a day, getting shit faced, like taking advantage of every situation. And so me coming over and opening a, it is a die bar.

There's no way you can change that, even though I didn't really want it to be called a die bar. I mean, like the fucking walls we need to die bar. So providing crop cocktails for a more accessible price with a female who is extremely knowledgeable about what she's doing, hiring females and imploring them to be their most authentic version of themselves. So dressing how they want acting, how they want, and then playing anything from like, you know, creating this clear water to, you know, slipknot.

So like people are like, what is this? You know what I'm saying? And so I think that that was initially, that's what attracted people to the Pontiac, but also, so it was less and like for the longest time I even didn't realize that we were a cocktail bar because I also sold PBR. Yeah.

So like that is very much a Western style of, you know, like you can find a bar like that in Portland. You can find it in the I mean, again, back to the section of like the service that I like to provide. And like, I mean, I can just, you know, open up open a beer or pour a pint and talk to anybody for hours. And that'll make me super happy.

So for a long time, that's kind of how it was, but at the end of that spectrum, because of my accolades and where I come from and things like that, I was also very much on the radar for being a cocktail bar. And then because I very much, and it's not anti-dudes or anything like that, never is everybody's always welcome, but I was always going to hire mostly women. Now that's specifically for Pontiac. Everywhere at like my other bars are all like inclusive and like they're all, they're all again, extension of my DNA that I've created now, especially my wife's and I that we've created through our company.

So people can already know what to expect. Like, they're going to be queer, they're going to be female for maybe, but like it's not necessarily about that, but upon again, it was, it was very much like, I'm hiring chicks and there's nothing you've got to do about it. Now, is that new to the key? Because I know like, say if you were to do that, in countries like Japan or something, that would be probably almost a detriment for you.

Well, in the beginning, it kind of was. So like people didn't understand. Again, I remember I implored the team to be the most authentic version of themselves so they could dress how they want. They needed to learn to have a bit of a skin.

If you grow up and knock on your skin anyways, you know what I mean? It's a versatile place, but you need to be able to hold your own. But they're not wearing aprons and suitant ties, like you know what I'm saying? Like they're, they can be exactly who they are and they're young and beautiful.

So they're like, oftentimes they were very sexualized and they held their own. And after a certain amount of time, like people knew that that wasn't the vibe. And that's some top down stuff. Like even when we first opened, like I had to have a couple meetings with a couple male business owners just to make sure everybody was on the same page that no bullshit was going to be tolerated and they were going to keep our name out of their mouth and we're all going to do the same together.

They got really pissed off. Asia 50 best came out the same year that we opened. But I guess it would have been 2006. It came, Asia 50 the first, I think it was 16, but anyways, I think we were like 17 or 19 on the year of inception.

So that pissed a lot of people off. That's crazy though. Like, wow, wow, wow, wow. Yeah, but we came in like, you know what I mean?

Hot rot energy, baby. Right. But like on adulteratedly, or did I nail that word? I think it did.

Unadulteratedly yourself. Yeah. You know, like to come in with that kind of concept. I know ego with it.

It's been like 17, 16 in the first list. Like that's fucking crazy. It's definitely 19. Yeah.

Yeah. And it wasn't ego about it, but you know, you had to be, we had to be strong and we had to, you know, stick to, stick to what we believe in. And it like, and it worked right. Like all things considered, it worked pretty well right away.

Yeah. That's crazy. But I mean, it's hard. It's super, super, super.

But like, I say right away, I mean, like within the first year. We'll say. And we all agree. Okay.

I kind of, I kind of. It's like being like an quote unquote overnight sensation, right? Where's everybody knows? It's like, oh, it took fucking 15 years of work to get to the point that you were an overnight sensation.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. So like, anybody who like becomes like, I usually reference just music and anything, right? But if you get to the point where people can actually like, we're having some visibility, right? There's always like, that's solid 10 years.

Minimum. Yeah. Nobody knew who your name was. And here's like Gruntin and Grinding.

And the recession did I not send everybody's fucking door. All right. Like, dude, I would knock down everybody's door. The only reason I even got the job at Joe's bar of artistic is because I was so desperate.

I like called this. I was like, you know, this is going to be used to like go hand in. We call him CDs over here. But call him resume.

Like you go to door to door and be like, I mean, guys, hi, you mean? You know, I was like 24 or something like that. And so I'm just doing callbacks. I'm like, hey, did you get my seat?

Did you get my resume? Like, and like the only reason I even got that job at that place, which I was just like, oh my god, job is because I was like, please talk to the manager. Got the manager on the phone, which was a very like nice guy. And he was just talking to me.

Luckily for me, his guy likes to talk. And I was like, hey, man, you know what? I understand anybody done your first round of interviews. I can just ask you advice.

I was like, I come from high performance bartending. I want to get into craft. I can't. I'm like, my CV is just in there with a stack of other people's TVs and everybody's doesn't have a job.

Like people with PhDs and doctorates and shit like that. I'd be like, can I work brunch? And I'm like, fuck you, dude. You don't actually want this job.

I do want the job. I do want to do some lemons like, what can I do? I don't have experience to just be an easy hire and I have too much experience. So I'm almost like a wild card and I might be wild card pick no matter what, right?

And he's like, well, let me think about it. And he came back and he's like, can you come in tomorrow for an interview? And I weaseled my way into that job. Like common.

I cold called Clyde Common off and on per year. Yeah. And I knew who Jeff was and like mutual friends and stuff like that. Like calls, you know, none of this stuff just happened.

Like I knocked on the doors fucking open and then if the doors in open, I just went kicking. You know what I mean? That people don't get is that it takes fucking ten years to know what the fuck you're doing anyway. Like, I'm actually barreting at golety dole hours.

I don't know what's the fuck I'm actually now, especially in Asia, man. Everyone wants to fast track because it's like, and not trying to be negative. I was so glamorized. And it's like, it's not a glamorous fucking job.

No, no. Well, it's same as like chefs have been glamorized now, right? But they don't, but the shoot that you see on like celebrity chef on TV is not what they're doing and the like the 12 hour days prepping. Yeah.

That nobody sees that, right? Like, yeah, I'm super super super, super incredibly fortunate that like I got out to Hong Kong was I perhaps brave enough, stupid enough, strong, well enough. I mean, because I know my shit, I think that like I could fall back on that, right? Yeah.

Like I worked hard to, I'm not an expert in anything, but like, I mean, I mean, I'm not, but I know myself. So like I have that confidence, right? You know what I mean? It's like, figure it to make it to a certain extent.

But I don't think I was fake anything. I was just like, we just got work to do. Yeah. Well, I think about faking it to make it in our businesses.

You really can't do that. Like you can fake it for a little bit while you're learning, but there's a certain level where if you haven't learned the should a certain point that people can tell you are just fake it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But I want to say something that I'm just very, I've had a lot of gratitude. Also, sometimes I put sometimes gratitudes in place of perseverance, but they mean the same thing to me right now. I have a lot of gratitude for the fact that I got out of Hong Kong when I did because I was in a space to like really lean into a very authentic version of myself and use that as a backbone to get through to build to build things and to get through it.

And it's been a super, super accepting of me in like almost every form. I will say like, I know this sounds really just kind of probably stupid, but like it's boring being called like, Queen of Exology, I'm not like, if you need to put a label on your baby bars, but I'm not an excel, I mean, like, I'm not even talking, I don't even care. I don't even care. I'm not talking about the fuck you want, but like, I hate being labeled that.

Everybody calls me a badass. I'm like, it's like, it's not diminishing. I know it's not as compliment, but it's just boring. And like, bitch, I'm a metal head, I'm bad as fuck, but you don't know that.

Like, you know what I mean? Like my rock and roll is so like deep rooted, but like, that is not necessarily what I would say in describing like how I take care of people and how I've done like a real. I wish that they were, I don't know. So it's like, it doesn't diminish.

And I know this like, not necessarily always like a lot of different words to describe me in my position, right? And what I've done. But again, so it's been another 10 years. So I moved out here 10 years ago and I lived here 10 years.

So like, I'm almost 40 in two months, like almost exactly. So we need to evolve past like these sort of like generic ideas of who I am in relationship to the work that I've done. Does that make sense? Yeah, of course.

Yeah. And it's like, but you're, it sounds like you're wrestling with it a little bit yourself to figure it out. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean?

Like, forget about what other people are saying about you. You're still trying to figure out how to title your own self. Well, just owner, man. I don't know.

It is hard. It is like, like, so I don't really tend. So when I go on tour and things like that, or like, I'm traveling for work, like a 10 bar, but I don't tend bar anymore. You know what I'm saying?

Like, I'll take up. I don't want to take up the space. Right. No.

So the bars that I have right now, my wife and I have together, we have bar managers, we have general managers, we have teams for that. Like, you know, my role as proprietor is creative director. And to make sure that those things stay open and, you know, like the role is completely changed. Yeah.

I know it's a weird transition though, right? Because that happened to me as well when I moved into like proprietor, director or whatever. It's like, there's a sense of removal from what's happening on the day to day shift that's going down. But it's also like, you can't be, like, you can't do all those jobs at the same time.

You need to take a step back and it's hard to like go a little bit. Well, for sure. I mean, it's, I think it's just also from the audience as well. It's like, so I like when I'm generalizing like the guests and stuff like that as an audience, so the people that are like people that are watching or viewing or whatever, at Pontiac, I was owner, creative director and bar manager all in one, right?

Small venue, easier to do those kind of things, time very well set. But now multiple, and like this time, two years ago, I had six venues. Now I have to add it to amplify. I'm no longer a minority shareholder, I'm the majority shareholder in the bar, my wife and I in the bars that I own.

And that's the only way where to do that going forward. Again, things are just not doing it over time. But it's like how, because, I mean, this is, it goes back to the duality of like the bar star thing or just like people want to see you. And so my job is to make them want to see other people, but not everybody has the exact same like inertia, energy, drive, maybe I have.

Does that make sense? Sure. But they also don't have the. So it's like I had to build them into that space, but at the same time, I don't know.

It's a duality and it just doesn't happen overnight. You know what I mean? Like I've had. And then I'm sure like in your situation, like I was never in your position where I was like a bar star quote unquote, like I didn't do the competitions.

I didn't grow up in the same way in the industry that you did. So it's like, it's even more so for you. Like you're even more so the face of the place that your place is than I am, right? So that makes it even harder to like go a little bit, right?

Yeah. I mean, I don't think that Pawnee was the hardest to let go of, but that's, it's pervertan. I'm no longer a partner or creative director as a like last six months or something like that. And it took a while to get to that point, but I'm very happy with where it is now.

And like my relationship with my partners, my business relationship with my partners there had just was very past its prime. But now that Pawnee is doing great, we're always one and the same. That one took a little bit. But my other business is my other bars.

I've never been the face of it intentionally, right? But even still, and when I talk to my cohorts and things like that, I'm always trying to learn and see how we can gain more traction, continuing to evolve, maybe reach different demographics or markets and Hong Kong that I haven't tapped into yet. And it always seems to go back to this. I want to just like see like me or see my wife and they're not built for that.

And I don't, you know, I mean, that can't be what it is. But like as the owner, I don't believe that you're supposed to be there every day. No, you can't. That's not what we got into this.

Again, it just goes back to it's like, what is detrimental and when is it detrimental and why? Right? Am I doing a disservice by not being there like absolutely all times or was it more of a long-term disservice? That people can rely on.

Does he know what I'm saying? I honestly, I fucking struggle with this exact same situation in my heart. So I'm actually because I'm quite a bit older than you. And I'm like, you know, I'm just not out at the bars every Friday, Saturday night anymore just because I'm fucking getting old.

And it's like, and but I still wrestle with it all the time. Like, well, I'm not there. Give me an eye on shit. I'm trusting my staff.

And also, there's a lot of people come by. I was like, oh, I was at your bar tonight and you weren't there. You weren't there. You weren't there.

You weren't you. Yeah. Like, you know, I got a life or I'm trying to have one to leave. But I'm at least trying to have one.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a work in progress.

And like I said, it doesn't happen overnight. You know what I'm saying? And again, going back to like just as a human being, just going back to, first of all, like my bars are awesome. Just skip that out.

Yeah. Let's get another. Yeah. I'm actually very fortunate to ask the right.

I'm not an expert at anything. I'm not an expert at human connection. And like, I'm very, very fortunate to my wife and I connect, herself included, but to connect with the right people to be that extension of our DNA and to trust my teams with my whole heart. Like in every way, it doesn't be doing around like everybody makes mistakes.

But leadership in there and stuff like that. So I know I don't need to be there. And I over time I've been teaching people that like, if they need something, you can always come to me, but really like calling all those cloyees. Yeah.

She's a good one. Like if you want to like, I'll get it done, but you should be really going to cloyee. Do you know what I'm saying? Right.

That's right. Yeah. But it's important that they have that connection too. And realize that like, there's a hierarchy to it.

There's like a pyramid to this situation where it's like, yeah, I will answer all your questions. I will be there for anything you need. But there's a reason why this person on a totem pole exists and the person on the the person on the dam and the person on the dam, right? Yeah.

So balancing that audience expectation and then trying to build your team member up to where they are the person that's getting. So it's not like, and I also have to be like cognizant and not painting myself out of my own picture as well. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I read all this shit all the time. You're like speaking my mind. It's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, the pieces. It's like, you know, you make sure that like Chloe and Jason, manager, my other bar and like, all that team gets spotlight and they get the interviews.

And it's like, it's not about them. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah.

I'm still like the bait to get you come in. Actually, we're talking to Chloe and Jay directly after you. So don't worry about her. We're talking to Chloe and Jay directly after this interview.

So. Perfect. No, I know what you're talking about. Because they, I see that water, then we grow them and like.

And at the end of the day, it's actually more important that those people get the props than you do at this point in your career. Like, what you care about? I'm not doing a job of progressing in their career. It's like, I'm going to progress in their careers with me.

When I say me, like, it's my wife and I, my partner, but like, like business partner as well. Yeah. But for the conversation sake, but also like, I'm not trying to, it's my responsibility. Like, if you're working together that, you know, you're, you're growing.

Period. That's right. And even if they need to think if they end up growing away from you, that's a good thing. I mean, they're going to it.

Yeah. Yeah. And then, but that's, I was like, I worked for people in the past who got resentful when, like, I moved into a situation where I was doing something without them. And I, I never understood that.

Like, anyone who's ever worked for me or with me, I want them to do what I'm doing. Yeah. I mean, like, dude, I'm not going to get into it, but I've got that, I've gotten that. I'm like, I'm like, I gave you my whole fucking life.

And I need occupationally, so lonely. Like, I've just been holding this fucking bar by its bridges through demonstrations, through COVID, through everything. And like, and I just like, when I decided to pursue, well, age, first, to stabilize the bar, because I couldn't afford my salary, because people don't realize this before COVID happened. In 2019, we had demonstrations which put Hong Kong into recession long before the, so it's a demonstration, say, K-like protests.

Yeah. So we were in a recession before COVID hit. We were like, we were describing the bottom of the barrel long before. A pre-recession recession.

Well, mental. There's like businesses or, anyway, so like, it was just such a fucking slap in the face to like, be basically made to feel bad for pursuing. And I like, I had stabilized the bar. It was, we were good.

You know what I mean? Like, I always put myself very last, like, I'm barely enough salary to like, eat, whatever. Everybody was fucked. So, you know what I mean?

Like, we were solidarity in the fuckness. So that, and I don't care. Like, I money coming, I don't care. Like, it's not a big deal, but I stabilized the bar.

And so when an opportunity came along to work with some other people, and another equity position, and I was just like, shoot on for it. I was like, dude, it's, and that's, that's the kind of stuff like, that just will never happen. I hope, I hope that in whatever way that I teach, which again, like, I'm no saint, so might not be like as structurally sound like, you know, but even more than teaching people like, like fundamental skills of bartending and stuff like that or product knowledge, I want to teach them how to be a communicative reliable person, so that they can be an out of value no matter where they are in whatever profession that they're in, and I'll never treat them that way. And it's beyond me that, like, I have been treated that way, but like, no matter, you know, matter how much I grow these teams and how much I invest in these individuals, I will always be happy for their advancement.

And, you know, hopefully I play a role in their advancement, whether it's within, within inside the company or within our relationship, or if they find something that, you know, takes them to the next level. I mean, that's, you know, we all got to progress. That's an amazing way to lead us back. That's because it's you're completely right and you're the exact type of people that need to be in this fucking industry for that exact same attitude that you've had in your whole career.

We're super happy that you joined us for this. Awesome conversation. So, yeah, thank you so much. And thanks for doing this early in the morning for you.

We really appreciate it. The other side of the world, this is why we love doing this show, is getting to talk to people like you and learning from you. So keep doing what you're doing, enjoy all your success and progress at Theron Hong Kong, and we'll all cross our fingers that by the time everyone's listening to this, the world has not blown up because it's election night. I mean, I don't even know what to say to that.