This week's guest is Sean Flanagan, who joins us for an in-person interview. Sean is a Kitchener native and hospitality professional with over two decades of experience working throughout the region. Sean landed his first job in the industry as a dishwasher in his early teenage years, and has worked nearly every position in the restaurant industry from line-cooked to kitchen manager, from serving and bartending to management. Currently, Sean is the operations manager at the Boathouse in downtown Kitchener.
In our interview with Sean, we talk about his current role at the Boathouse. We talk about the build-out of the very unique property and the challenges of working with multiple contractors and designers while working with an older building. We discuss the time when Sean's family took over a restaurant and the memories and friendships that developed from those years. We discuss the era when Sean worked at a brew pub and worked his way up to management as a means to support himself while working on a master's degree in rhetoric and communications design at the University of Waterloo.
Sean discusses the importance of learning to read a table rather than resetting from a script. We talk about developing cocktail menus and the importance of using an appropriate name for the drink, plus we discuss a number of other topics as always. We want to thank Sean again for taking the time out to come over for an interview. We had a great time with Sean and you'll enjoy the interview too.
Okay, we're back with another episode of the industry podcast. My name is Kit and this is Dan. Hey man, how's it going? Terrific, thanks for asking.
Wonderful. Yeah, it's good to hear. Doing well, it's recovered after our trip to the Toronto Cocktail Festival. Yes, big shout out to Gail Nugent and the whole Alchemists Magazine team for putting on the Gala for the Toronto Cocktail Festival.
It was fantastic, a beautifully run event, it was a great time, lots of great cocktails, it was a good DJ, the food was good. I have no notes. Yeah, it was great. I loved everything.
Yeah, it was absolutely fantastic event. So once again, he said that to Gail Nugent, hopefully she keeps doing this every year. Got to chat with a brief leave, seemed like the whole week was a success though. I'm assuming she'll come back and do it again.
I hope so. And if you missed it this year, then come next year because it was fucking great. Yeah. It was a great time.
How many spots? They were closer, like 30 different spots. Yeah, I think we tried them all. Yeah, sure did.
Yeah, it was interesting that it was in Toronto with the Blue Jays game, the World Series game, and then the Raptors were playing and the festivals going on. So it was well downtown Toronto, but great time and a long train ride home. Yeah, sure. Was it a great few friends?
Sure. Yeah, great time. So big shout out to the Toronto Cocktail Festival on the show for a while. It's finally completed.
They knocked it out of the park. So yeah, hopefully they come back. And if they do, if you listen to the show, you will like this festival. Yeah, awesome time.
Yeah. In addition, if you like to drink, you'll probably like my bar. Sure, right. Downtown Kitchener.
It's at Sugar Run Bar on Instagram. So come check out everything we got going on there. You don't want to miss all the amazing events, but less. Live music, DJs, all the good stuff.
So check that out once again, that Sugar Run Bar on Instagram to figure out what is happening. And if you are interested in booze, then you should check out Malvar Winery and the Lord is still in company. A hot new ride from the Lord is still in company. It just got released.
100% rye from locally sourced rye. It ran around the distillery there, which is amazing. Three years aged in brand new white oak barrels. So it's got that bourbon quality to it.
But it is of course 100% rye. So go to the store to check that out. Or you can of course email me, kipsonders at gmail.com. K-Y-P-P-S-A-U-N-T-E-R-S at gmail.com.
Also, hopefully coming soon and we're enjoying some right now to the LCBO near you is the collection from Saltar Rare Maults. We are currently enjoying the Falkland collection, the space side single malt. Cheers everybody. That's the sound of an in-person guest.
We'll be joining us shortly. But yeah, press your local LCBO that you've heard about Saltar Rare Maults and you want to be able to purchase them because it's delicious. That's coming soon. What else do we need to talk about?
Oh, if you want to be a guest on the show, the best way to get ahold of us is info at the industrypodcast.club or you can, DMS at the industry podcast, where you'll find the amazing artwork by the Supremely talented Zac Hanna at Zac Hanna.co for all your graphic arts needs. Also same place to provide support for the show. And speaking of support for the show, take it away Dan. All right, today's episode is a partnership with a bibliothon visual cocktail app built by bartenders for bartenders.
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Visit www.mbivvy.com or check the show notes as always for the links below. Dan, how does Sarah make the cinnamon syrup? I don't know. I'm going to go.
I wasn't paying attention. I was drunk at the time. Yeah, okay. Well, that's why you need a bibliothon.
In biblioth for all your cocktail making needs. And I should also mention the best way you can help us here at the industry podcast if you like what we're doing on the show and why wouldn't you subscribe, follow, rate, review the show. That's what helps us and what helps us most is just telling other people to listen to it. So please do all of that.
And with that, all out of the way, let's get to today's guest, Sean Flanagan joining us in person. Sean, thanks for coming by. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks very much.
Appreciate it. Cheers. We'll set this up with the Falkland space eye collection. More shameless plugs.
And now we go. So, Sean, currently you are general manager. Is that the position title? Operation manager.
Operation manager of the reconstituted boathouse in downtown Kitchener. It's a local institution legendary been there forever. Gone through many different hands at this point, obviously. We're a new ownership group and you're the guy running the show.
So we're just discussing before you started that it's been since like November, but obviously you were involved in the whole opening. So how long have you been part of this process? I was part of the original RFP and the team members sent into the city to take over the space. We won that bid and then last January I started on with construction crew, which was going on site making sure that the build out was being done that we hadn't visioned and then the restaurant was near complete by September and then the operations began November 22nd.
So I have a couple questions about that. So first of all, we should get out of the way that what you're talking about is a very unique position with the boathouse that it is partially owned by the city. Like how does that work? I know the bathrooms are owned by the city.
Where they were. Yeah, the old place they had a different agreement with the city where the bathrooms were built into the restaurant. So they had to also service the park. So the city has now built the outdoor washrooms over by the parking area.
So that is for the public use and then our space, the city owns the property, but we put the capital investment in. So then we have the lease for the next 15, 20 years on the property to recoup that investment. So we are the operators of the space, but it is technically a city owned property. Now does the city help?
For those who are unfamiliar with the kitcheners, I think we should describe the setting of where the bar is. Yeah, that's awesome. The boathouse is located right in the middle of Victoria Park, which is kind of kitchener's version way scaled down of what a central park would be. It's got a nice little lake right in the middle of the park and our restaurant has a dock that is cantilever over top of that.
It goes over the water entirely 12 feet. So it's a really nice view of the park and water. And there's a lot of trails and activities and events that get thrown in that park throughout the year by the city and by private groups and events. So it's a really neat kind of local hub for the community.
It's a total gem in the heart of the city, right? Because yeah, they've said all the festivals and just a nice having a nice park right in the middle of downtown. Yeah, big open green space and also trails in the island of the gazebo. The wedding's up and at.
And the city just so we're clear. So did the city provide any financial help with the renovations or was that all on you guys? No, that was all on us. So you're trade off.
Like because a lot of times I know I've been building a few bars myself is like you can get the landlord to trip in for the improvements or they give you a little break on the rent for a few months or whatever. These are different ways they can get back. But yours is like the sort of deal you got from this is this like massively long lease. Yes, you had to raise the capital.
And then we rent it from the city on the lease terms. The build out was all on us. There were a few infrastructure issues underneath the building at the city. We found a basement.
It wasn't on the original plans. Let's go. So that was where the boat launch was in the very first area. So then we had to come and fill that.
And then there was a sewer on the property that wasn't on the diagrams that we had received. So the city did have to work with us on some of those individual projects. But yeah, the main build out that can't leave her patio, the new interior that was all a part of the agreement. Now there's advantages and disadvantages to have a partner with the city.
Like the advantage of something you just laid out where they're going to like I got no help from the city in my build in any city that I built in like very little to zero. And where you're sort of a partner with the city. So they're incentivized to help you out when they can and where they can. Now I'm sure there are also some disadvantages of working with the city as well.
It's just kind of a very interesting partnership that most people don't have to go through. So I'm just very, I find that whole thing very interesting. But going back to what you were talking about earlier, which is your vision for how the state is going to look, let's talk about that. How did you come to terms on the vision that you had?
Because it is significantly different than the classic boat house that people were used to, which was like, I know you're still doing live music, but it was like a live music hall, a little divey. Like if I described it that way, like not a lot of, I wouldn't say. But I would not in a derogatory sense. Right.
Not in an ordinary amount of time and thought put into like the design of this place. So talk to us about how you guys came to your vision and why you wanted to be different. Yeah. So the build out itself, part of the big vision that two of the partners Curtis, Brian and James Bar, they're like the two of the team that brought it all together.
One of the things they wanted to do was really bring the park into the space. Because the old space was dark. It was kind of very inclusive of its own atmosphere. So with the vision of the new space, we knocked out the one wall and put sliding according to glass doors.
So really that's you see what's happening outside on the inside. Yeah. And it just created a sense of space. But even though the interior space was the same size.
Yeah. Yeah. Part of it, the old space wasn't graded. So there's a big accessibility ramp on the inside.
Yeah. So we created the property now. So it's fully accessible throughout, which is a plus for our guests. But it also allows us to have a larger floor plan.
The washrooms we now only have on the interior, what we need for the interior seating. And then the patio, we were granted through the heritage committee and the city to build the addition on the outside. So those washrooms will service the patio when it's open. And that'll help us, our patio capacity doubles are overall capacity.
Yeah. I think it's $2.59 on the outside and $1.39 on the inside. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
It's a massive space that we have there. We have all the guests not having to wait in lines or queues. We don't have to use the park washrooms. Well, I think I'm not sure if we've discovered over many interviews with many people from around the world that it's very different everywhere else.
But what maybe people don't understand about Ontario and the big, probably the biggest factor outside of maybe FireRags is for your capacity is bathroom space. So you could have a 2500 square foot space. But if you only have two bathrooms, your capacity might be 50. Yeah.
Right? And that's inclusive of staff and guests. That's right. That's right.
Yeah. So key to have those extra bathrooms when you need them. So push the bar back into the space where some of those washrooms were open up the dining area and then extend the kitchen as well so they have a larger footprint or larger cooking capacity to allow for that increase in volume. Right.
That's the other thing because I had been to the old bulldozer my time. I knew people worked there. So I had seen the kitchen and then it was like a closet. And so I'm like, originally I was told that you hadn't expanded the kitchen.
And then but then you were playing this massive patio expansion. I'm like, how the fuck is that going to work? Yeah, it wouldn't. It's a flat out, right?
And yeah, it's funny. There were many bars during the COVID situation as well where people were allowed to use their parking lots as a patio space. It seemed like a great idea. However, sometimes the kitchen's going to handle the amount of extra seating you suddenly have, right?
Like that's people always it's something that people don't generally think about. It's like, OK, if we add X number more people, they all want food, how is this tiny little kitchen going to keep up, right? Like it's more just taking home more money. Yeah, if we increase seats, we'll increase revenue.
That's not how it works because the other thing is then people can't get food in time and they don't come back. Yeah, you sell more to that one service, potentially. And then you don't create those returning guests that people that have great experience, the people that will sell your praises elsewhere. Well, returning guests is the whole game.
So yeah, and there's a lot of shortsightedness that goes into that. Luckily, that wasn't a problem for you guys, at least you thought of that, right? Yeah. Was this your first time opening an actual bar from Graveler?
From the pre-construction side, yes. Yeah, yeah. So tell me a little bit about how that opened your eyes into that process because I was just thinking through it a few times now and I remember the first time I went through it. I was like, what the fuck?
Yeah. The amount of communication between channels of all of the different contractors was not just making sure that everything aligned. We had some interior designers that we were working with at the beginning that were working with our general contractors and then that relationship didn't stay as wonderful as could have. Yeah.
With the designers? Yeah. I had problems with designers too. I was like, I'll flatter and say, this isn't your show.
So I had no problem saying it at this point. It's a waste of your money. Yeah. And fucking designers, you can do this shit yourself.
They were measuring with lasers. Yeah. I had to call the GC after they told me the event, didn't fill out the equipment under it. And so you can use it, take measuring and tell me the size of the event, two foot difference.
Oh my God. And that's it. So we then, okay, well, let's not have a Gravel and Gravel scaled. Yeah.
The Gravel now will scale up the Gravel and kind of reach into space, but that also changes now all the kitchen's programming of how we're going to run. Now we're not doing smash burgers. Now we have to change up the line setup and where the fridge is kind of having to use. The designers sound no construction background, right?
So they just don't understand. I remember watching that old show restaurant make a room for food network. I remember that one time they had a couple designers that I got pissed off and got to go, what did you come work with me for a couple of days? Yeah.
They showed up and the guys afterwards and like, you know what, we never really understood that. Well, they don't understand construction, but they also understand the restaurant business and the third thing they don't understand is budget, right? Like if you have a budget and like I remember my designers for sure, I'm like we were like, we didn't have deep pockets. It was myself and my friend opening the spot, right?
So we had money, but it was all getting sunk into the project and they were coming back with like wall sconces that were like 600 bucks a pop. I'm like, what? I'm like, what the fuck? Yeah, look at the other thing with the restaurant industry too is how long you have to pay to recoup the costs of what you're saying.
And in other places, if you're selling, they can be building out a university or a business that can kind of recoup it without having to create product. Right. It's a lot easier for them to just sell tickets to that venue and eventually they make it back. But if you're making 10 to 5 to 10% at the end of the year to pay back all the costs, the more you say again, the way longer it takes to be.
Oh my God, that's the thing. That was the one thing I learned the hard way. Like I did a couple of different projects. It was like, OK.
And by the time I got onto my last one, I was like, OK, well, this is the budget and that's fucking it. Like, yeah, like there's no going over the budget anymore because I know it's a lot of scars because the cliche is that you got five years, right? And if you can re-up your first lease, then you're already a success. Yeah.
I know you guys have a 30-year lease. So if you re-up that one. That's not it. Yeah.
That's really not going to look like. Like Pinch Points do with that was kind of another thing that we had to learn was after it was built, like, I hate having to build it out and fix it after. Right. So this is like our keg storage.
There was a little server area where we bought the fridge. It was supposed to go in there. Make kegs really easy to close the bar. But the measurements were for the inside of the wall, not the outside of the wall.
So again, not to say that their work wasn't great because the design looked awesome. A lot of those components are still 100% a part of the space and build out. But I think those losses and translation are miscommunications that didn't line up with the drywallers and the general contractors and the electricians and everything else. Like there's so many moving parts that it really comes down to a proper GC to make sure that those things don't actually happen.
And it's funny, like, you're also sort of trapped by the actual space sometimes. Like you and I have been in the industry forever. Like we know how to work behind a bar. We know where things need to be.
But sometimes the space that you have doesn't allow it. And then of course you'll hear the staff pitch about it literally like, oh, give me the gear. I'm like, give me the fucking idea. You think I wanted to put it in there?
Yeah. It's just because I'm stupid. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay, let's back it up a bit. So that I'm just always super interested in building up to the bars, obviously because what I'm going to do. But yeah. Intriguing.
Yeah. I think you just watched the whole process. Yeah, it's a whole different thing. And the other thing that we didn't mention too is what I think you were kind of alluding to it is that the plumber has to come now, then the electrician and it can't go the other way.
Or everything goes south very quickly. And all that stuff has to be timed. So if you run into a problem with the plumber, either on their issue or the buildings issue, then not delays the electrician coming in. Maybe now they got a new job.
Yeah. You're always just waiting for everybody else to mention and they pick up a job in between. And that's where you see some apartment buildings and larger buildings go up so quickly. Yeah.
And it's because it's so routinized. Whereas these individual spaces that take forever and then you're waiting on the city for a permit or the fire inspection that come in. Yeah. And all those other things.
It's like a big jigsaw puzzle to us. It's a timed one though. And there's not enough. There's not enough inspectors.
So there's one dude. Yeah. But if you're lucky too. And you're right.
That was one thing I hadn't figured out too. But that's very well put is like these buildings go up so quickly. But you're right. It's like because everything is, they know it.
This is the timing. Here we go. And everyone's working on the same team. But if you run into one unforeseen circumstance with these smaller spots, it throws everything.
It throws everything. Now all of a sudden you've delivered the bar opening and it's been delayed a month. Yeah. So imagine a gear, but the gears are clopparch.
That's right. It's not just one machine you take it out. It keeps moving. It's everything else.
Yeah. So crazy. Okay. Well, yeah.
My sister worked at a restaurant around the corner from her house. It was a small local pub, Coppers, just an enforcing class in Kitchener. They needed help on Valentine's Day to watching dishes. So she followed me and asked for one to start there.
And I was 13. And then they kind of just any time they needed the odd hander help. And then in the summer, I just started, it was the go for unduendishes in the back. But hey, can you grab this from the fridge, you grab that from the line, working your way to prep and then helping out the back.
And I kind of just continually learned a little bit more, did a little bit more. My parents eventually, they knew the owners had played darts with the owners in the head chef, so the owners were looking to sell and retire. My parents took that over for a while. So wait, just to not interrupt.
The Flanagan's played darts. Yeah, sorry. I'm very shocking with that last name. Anyway, how are you?
No, it's OK. That's how games we had. They were probably out. Did your parents have any restaurant experience before that?
No, my dad and his brother had been regulars at the restaurant for years. They wanted to do something. Their business was around the corner, and they were really interested in creating and keeping what had been built out to going. But he partnered with the head chef in the space.
So that was kind of like, I could be the business and finance side, the daily operation side. And then, I think probably about five or six years later, my oldest brother, Trevor, became old enough to take over some of the responsibilities from the GM and was closing supervising. And he saw that when he was comparing the weekly sales, last Thursday was raised. And then he kept digging.
And last Wednesday was raised. The head chef was just pocketing money and gambling. So it sucked because he was great friends with my parents. They wanted vacations and together.
It was straight up investment. And I don't know if he probably thought he'd put it back in, because they're big in scratch tickets. And then in the bottle back then, it was a funny place. But I think they found me 649 every week just that big.
It's going to look like a retirement plan. I don't know if the coin machines slots in. I know he's new. I know people that have got.
But it's funny like scratch tickets. I like the game. Well, I've gone down a rabbit hole of sports gambling and card games. But to think you're going to win this money back on fucking scratch, that's like.
It was like the convenience store that was at the place, there were a group of regulars that were just, that's all they did. Scratch tickets and those cherry snappers. Yeah. But there was one person there.
At one point, she'd won the $75,000 jackpot. She won the $25,000 jackpot on separications. And talking to her, she probably said she still put more in. Like this.
Oh, wow. Because you have stable income. And that was like their video game, or their fun. So it was fun.
So yeah, broke even great. Wow. Yeah. But my parents, they started doing the digging back into it.
And it made more financial sense to buy him out. And just say you're done in the business. Then to close it, do an investigation and kind of go the police route. Because it was supposed to be an entire restaurant while they were doing the audit.
And what's that going to give him the advice? Yeah. And they'd lose more money than he took. So it sucked because we started off on kind of a back foot.
And then the lease and property just kept going up, kept one up. So we actually got offered the space at Williamsburg Armist before they moved in. But it made more financial sense to say, no, we're not going to move. We're just going to close it.
And then we're going to move over there and kind of reinvest it and keep going. I ran into that issue with that one as well. Because we thought we were going to do it. Like our rent just kept going up.
And then I was like, well, let's just move it. Like let's just move it somewhere. I looked around to a bunch of different spots. And I'm like, you know what?
Like every spot I went to. Now, like exactly what you said, it's reinvesting into upgrading that spot to make it look even slightly similar to what we're doing already. And now, and maybe that doesn't work either. Who knows?
The potential is in clientele. Yeah. Because you're in a different location. And does the reinvestment compare to the rent that you're at and increases?
How long is it going to take until that reinvestment saves you money? It's like, wait a minute. Prayer. We're going to prayer.
Sorry. I've like this idea that like, oh, well, I'm invested in this concept that I poured my heart and soul into. And so I would rather move it than lose it. And then when you really start thinking about it makes no sense.
You're just taking down. Yeah. You're taking down. You're digging down.
That's well-placed. Yes. Or at least I get somebody to jump with the hole with you. OK.
So sorry. Continue. So after that, I'm grateful because we ended on Hidal. Like I'm not moving and trying to rethink that.
There's still tons of regulars that we know. And see around that like playing. I missed that place. That place was awesome.
That was great. And then I'm going to Remrener, downtown Kitchener. That place was awesome. Another historical site, but it had so much history to it.
Like the wall was at the original brick in them that the barrels during probation were hidden. It was actually a probation bar. Then there's like an Al Capone connection. Yeah.
Because it was operating with Sleeman's at a well. And this was one of the stops on way through Windsor to the States. So it was a really neat location. It still had the original safe.
It's underneath the wallboard hotel on Kitchener. Yeah. Awesome. Very close to Sugar Run.
Check it out. If you could play the save right here. Exactly. Remrener was great.
And then the scene saw a lot of interesting characters coming in. Especially at that time. Yeah. It's played up a little bit.
And then in the 1990s to 2015. Yeah. Rough. Yeah.
So 100% label. And so you guys got really into the live music scene at that point as well down there with drum runners. Yeah. One of the 12 bars of loose.
And we had a really good accent. Yeah. I remember like Palm Cloud, Danny Michelle. Some of the local legends always played down there.
I remember when Dan and I both moved here. It was right around. It was like 92 I guess. Right.
Yeah. And so like later when we discovered that there were places off campus. So first time I was up town Waterloo and then it finally became downtown Kichar. That was probably.
That's so far. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
That was almost difficult. Yeah. So then discovering like those guys playing down there. And it was like a real scene.
And it was like run runners was cool. And then it became just known as a whopper. But yeah. That was a cool scene down there.
It was like yuck yuck's too. Yeah. The comedy club was attached to the restaurant. So they were great.
The owners now they own Darlie's Cafe. If I could plug them. Awesome. I know.
I'd go around the corner from Sugar Run as well. If you didn't want to run after breakfast. Yeah. Around the corner.
Yeah. I'd go around the corner and buy a restaurant. It was amazing. And those are two of the nicest people in the world.
Yeah. So I worked for them when they were operating the run runner and hotel took over to management and they didn't want to continue working with them. Yeah. But they were doing dinner parties and like murder mystery in the back.
Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's right.
That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.
That's right. Yeah. And now like it's amazing. Like they built up so much sort of local celebrity with what they were doing there that they opened this like restaurant space with breakfast joint now breakfast and lunch I guess.
But like he's world famous for like his eggs and like his hot sauce and like the baking they do there is crazy. Yeah. Like that place himself you'd never know how talented. Oh I know.
Yeah. And they're just like I said they're 10 out of 10 people. I'm very lucky to be there basement neighbors. So big shout out to Daryl and Liz.
Yeah. So then continue. So now you're. After that I started getting my feet doubled into a bit more finenining.
Right. I worked at King Crabblazer Bar and Grille and then started working at the newer location of Kingsford Trio. Right. So did that for a little while.
Finenining the chefs that I was working with were great. The coworkers that I was working with were great. Those are the only people I mentioned from there. Okay.
Yeah. They were really honing in on the market of what Bellwoods had created in Toronto. Yeah. They first opened a beautiful build out of space.
They had the brewing co-end right inside even. It was the most functional. Yeah. They're making a lot of their own beer and house.
The original Robert Condari is phenomenal. He was he had a spreadsheet that if he plugged in what color he wanted the beer it would backbuild what he should add into it. Really knew what he was doing with the styles and offerings that they were trying to do. And I started there as just a server and then worked my way up to management became one of the lead closers and managers there.
I like what they were doing like the brand and I work hard. And then I was doing that as a way to support myself doing my masters at UW. So I did my Masters in Reder and Communication Design. A lot of focus on nonverbal and interpersonal communications which goes in love with the restaurant industry.
Lots of things that people are just innately good at that we study in the course and a lot of other aspects. Give us some examples. Yeah. Meering.
Some of the best service that you have can walk up to a table and you read your guests. We call it reading the table. If they're there for a casual meal you kind of give that casual style service. If they're there for a business meal you want to represent yourself differently.
And just knowing that the things that you're saying change based upon the people you're saying too. We talk about this on the show all the time where it's just like and I think that the people who do this job for a living are the best at this in the world. You can walk up to a table and engage it in like two seconds. And I always like to say this as well.
Sometimes you end up being wrong and those are my favorite times. Yeah. But the recovery afterwards. Yeah.
It's not how you drop the ball to how you pick up the fumble. One. That's you can make a joke at a table that you think you have that with and it doesn't land. But then after you the recovery afterwards or reading a table if they're there and like, I'm not drinking any more.
And then you have, oh, well, it just looks like you're over a good time. So we do have a wicked mocktail list. Yeah. Yeah.
And then I'll like, hit it. I don't support any of the decisions. Yeah. And then enter.
Like how to communicate to people. A lot of servers think it's a script. That's right. And they say the same thing.
I've had a server walk up when I was managing tables. Has a food in front of them. They just walk in. And how are we enjoying everything?
They haven't had a single bite. It's like how are you masked that question. The server knew that that's what they're supposed to say. You know what my role decks walking up the table.
This is that of service number three. But they're not like, it's not a form of communication. It's a process. It's a process.
How you do it to make sure that your table is looked after. It's not, but there's a difference between looked after and making sure they had a good time. Yeah. Service versus hospitality.
That's right. We're not just giving them the plate and then they're making a transaction. Like it's everything else that's going into that experience. Right.
Yeah. There's one regular that you come in public all the time. I guess I'll get there for what the history is. But really man, you said the restaurant industry is like when you're dining out, it's one of the only places you experience the past, the present, the future all in a moment.
Because it's the past of like where the food comes from, where it was grown, the labor that went into getting it to you and preparing it, the work that went into getting it out to you when you're there, the present when you're actually enjoying it, the people you're talking to, the experience, the music that's in the background, the setting, why you're there. And then the future, what you remember about that meal that most of my best times are with friends when we're out dining and you can kind of throw those things back and the nutrients for a few weeks for that reason. Yeah. Yeah.
It kind of brings all those things together that once and like to try and say that the server is a layer of all those factors or what they're contributing to those factors. Yeah. Like the really keen people at least acknowledge it's bigger than what that moment is. And that was just a regular game up with that?
He lives right by the park. I see him often. He was a professor at UW for computer engineering. Yeah.
He studied the side of how computers change our behavior. Okay. So it was like the medium is the message kind of thing where yes, we have this technology, but how do we, he studied how we use it instead of the technology itself. Because I think that like any of us who worked in industry for a long time would like, like that, he just nailed the whole experience.
Yeah. But it's like, I don't know if I would have put it that way, but maybe having like that. That was just one night when he came in on a random Thursday, he left Calvados. So that's one of the reasons why I always sat on my bar.
Yeah. But he just sat there and like we're in random conversation about nothing else and then he just drops one of those. And then he just sit in and hang out with me and this professor other than these kind of moments bring us together. That's crazy.
Yeah. That's a good one for us. I'll remember past president and future. Okay.
So yeah. So now you worked at a burb and then what happened after that? So they expanded, opened up a location downtown Kitchener. This was right when I was finishing up my degree.
Yeah. That was kind of perfect timing in a way because I had this brand opportunity to open this restaurant and go there and be the GM kind of pulled me out of academia, but not only in hindsight. It was a good decision to make because that was a pyramid scheme. Like the next step was be a professor that went to teach undergrad's rhetoric.
Well, that's what I'm saying. Like where does this go? Right. So I'm going to recognize my bachelor's degree.
You should. Well, we welcome it. The bachelor's is the new high school. Like everybody's high school and then you need a bachelor's.
Now everybody has a bachelor's so you kind of needed that next. That's right. And I wasn't sure if I was going to stay in the restaurant industry or pursue something outside of it. So that was a way to kind of give me at least a foothold of an next step.
Did you have a just a positive? Did you have an idea of what might have been and if it wasn't service in this way as your next step? No. I want to do something with creative writing, but also I always had this urge to be community based.
And I wasn't sure how I could monetize that with my degree in a way that made sense or felt organic or like true. There's a lot of people that do public speaking and that and it's a lot of people say they're authentic self. I've never heard an authentic person call themselves authentic self. Yeah, like motivational speaking basically.
Yeah. Or just drifting in some capacities where it was yeah. So there was that or kind of a law in legal writing. Okay.
So which is the community side of the other side. Yeah. Yeah. I like writing but more on the creative side to a T legal side.
So the community aspect really pulled me into the restaurant industry. Again, I really liked what Dave was doing with their branding and their community build out. And then eventually they started trying to grow too large at that time. With that on there.
Because there's no owners now with the company that were invested in the original operation and are really trying to build up properly. Yeah. And one of them is one of my very good friends at my former business partner at Baba. Yeah.
And he brought me back to open up their own location. So I get this wasn't my last. He's a fan of your interaction. Yeah.
But at that time I just there was another restaurant that just opened up a brand new location. There was my favorite spot in the city to dine out at the publication bar. Yeah. So when they moved over Lancaster, I moved over and started bartending working the cocktail program there and then eventually managed that throughout.
I think it was five years in total, but through COVID, changed the program up to do a lot of take out volume and switch up, built out a website for that. Because it was completely like small, top-style plates and tasting experiences. Doctor do don't go there. Yeah, don't translate to at home.
Yeah, dining. So that was neat. But throughout that, we were doing really well. And then Brian reached out.
They were rebranding Averb. I had a good rapport and relationship. Did well, I feel and kind of validated that when they reached back. They liked members.
Clearly. And then Averb Air was kind of out in the booties. I need a bit of a brand for rebrand and just a redirection. Because it's the only thing that's really out there locally other than an awesome farm facility, but that's still also further out.
So they brought me back on and I opened up that tail end of COVID. Got it operational. We were doing really fun functions and kind of creating that community core. Like we always said, we want to be in local space.
A small town. Lots of people want this place to succeed. They've got a vested interest in being able to come here. And then that was going really well.
And that's at the point that I got brought into the RFP for the boa house. I saw on Reddit. Sorry. I saw on Reddit there was the RFP went out and the city was looking for people that wanted to build space.
I looked at it and I looked at it and I was like, oh, I think I might be at the point my career. And then I saw the capital investment that was required to apply and kind of just put that right in the back burner. Well, that's not where I'm at. So when they reached out a few months later, I knew some people through opening up one of the bartenders at the downtown Kitchener Abe.
Their partner was one of the people that got me in the know with this group. So it's kind of been a long term building experience in networks. So you didn't know those guys at all? No.
No. There was a couple of tech investors, a couple of music and marketing and many people. But the city when they did their original pitch said you need someone in the restaurant industry. Yeah.
So that's when they reached out to me brought me in and we started talking then and then we informed the next step of the pitch and put it forward. But yeah, that was a really neat team experience we brought into. And then from then it was kind of the back end of planning of what we want the space to look like to the actual onsite coordination of what the space will look like. Backing up again, I want to go back to public because you said that you developed a cocktail program there.
And that's when I think that you first came on my radar and made the Wii first met. That was not your first foray into the cocktail world? Yeah. And that kind of elevated element.
Yeah. I'd made cocktails and cocktail menus for Congrav4Trio for Averb at the January. But this was a more elevated experience. I used to go to a public on their link has to occasion for their cocktails.