On this week's podcast, we sit down with Jeremiah Thomas, general manager and wine director at The Pine in Cribor, Ontario, one of Canada's Michelin's star destinations. Jeremiah breaks down the reality behind the star, a obsessive consistency, relentless attention to detail, and a team culture that rejects the old stereotypes of fine dining. This is in white gloves and silence, it's Metallica during service, coveralls at a former gas station, intriguing hospitality like a competitive sport. We talk about the rise of the unreasonable guest, why not every restaurant can be everything to everyone, how to pair wine with Chinese cuisine, plus what a Michelin star really does for business.
Jeremiah also talks about his start in the industry in his career path, plus we cover a host of other topics as always. You can see what Jeremiah is up to on Instagram at Jeremiah J. Thomas, and there's no H in Thomas, and the restaurant is at The Underscore Pine, or simply check the show notes for all the links. Once again, we wanted to thank Jeremiah for taking the time out of his schedule to come over for this recording.
So if you've never wondered what happens behind the curtain of modern fine dining, this one's for you. Enjoy the show. Dan, we're back with another episode of the industry podcast. My name is Kip Innes, is there?
Hey, man, how's it going? Great, how are you? Doing well. Doing well.
Marist, enjoy the weather. I guess I'm still boarding in, so I'm happy. Good for you. I can't wait to get away from him.
Every day, like freezing cold, or it's snowing, or both. Yeah. So anyone listening is looking to open a bar to tropical location, hit me up. I had it.
For it. But if you are still braving these kitchener winners, come check out my bar. It's warm down there. Always warm.
At Sugar Run Bar on Instagram, find out everything that's going on down at Sugar Run, downtown Kitchener. And if you're looking for a booze to stay home with, then you can hit me up at kipsonders at gmail.com for a fantastic liquor from a lawyer, the stealing company, or wine from Malabor. Do you like what we're doing here on the show? The best way to support us is to subscribe, rate or review.
That helps tremendously, or you can just tell somebody. Tell somebody to listen. All the downloads help. You know, it definitely does.
He's just saying to do just tell a lot of person who's about 30 seconds and usually wait for the word. Yeah. But even if you just want to drop a quick review, it takes a couple seconds to say that Dan never shuts the fuck up. Yeah.
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If you are, it's just staying home, or if you're a bartender, who isn't the weeds and someone orders a cocktail, you can't remember. What's the best resource you could take of Dan? Well, I think my number one recommendation would be in Biblioth. And today's episode is a partnership with in Biblioth, the visual cocktail app built by bartenders for bartenders.
As you build custom recipes of in Biblioth, you can see a visualization of the projected flavor at Campari and the Bitter Swikes balance with pineapple, watch the bitter drift down and the sweet rise. And Biblioth's recipe build with compute's flavor profiles in real time, whether you workshop cocktails without wasting product, professional bartenders used to understand balance before they even pick up a jigger. Here are the details in episode 216 of the industry podcast. See why I was featured by Bon Appetit, number one in the App Store, when it launched.
The free download gets you 500 plus recipes and all core features with subscription options for individuals and businesses to unlock advanced tools to connect entire teams. Visit www.inbiblioth.com or check the show notes as always for all the links. We love in Biblioth. You're also gonna love our guest today.
Jeremiah Thomas is joining us from Creamer. How are you, Joe? Fantastic. How are you?
Doing well, Joe. Thanks for coming down in person. Yes, in person interview. Throw it all away from the Orr'sville area, so we'll save it.
Yeah, the weather was just fine today. Yeah, it was sunny, it was okay. Okay, we'll give it a shot. I feel like three days of sunlight, which is more than the three hours we've had since November.
Yeah, it's been just fine. You're still over it. Just like, I can't do it anymore. It's just too fucking cold.
Like, every time I get to take my dog out for a piss, it's just like enough. Yeah, yeah. I need it too, so that doesn't make anything easier. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about what you're doing there in the Creamer area.
You're working at a restaurant called The Pine, which is a Michelin star restaurant, and you are the GM. Yep, the general manager there, slash wine director, kind of overseeing a lot of different operations there. Just kind of taking on the role of everything that's not cooking and really trying to leave a little bit of lasting oppression. The restaurant started as just a husband and wife couple, husband being the chef, chef Jeremy, and since then they've kind of evolved.
His wife is kind of overseeing all the operations from the behind the scenes, just because they had their first kid, and then that's where I stepped in. And now we've just kind of evolved and took him on a lot more guests, a lot more different steps of service, a lot more details, more wine, just just getting bigger and bigger and bigger and excited for the process. So like, when did you first see Derimiflin recognition? I don't know if I can truly remember.
It was like September 18th at like 9 p.m. Yeah. Yeah, right, right, right. It was like somewhere around there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's been two years now. We retained it last year and then we agreed to see what we get this year again and just hope the best. So we're always there, just we've had a lot of people in here who work in places that are different from stars.
And I'm also always interested in the process because people watch food shows or movies, they get a little taste of it sometimes, maybe they watch the bear, I don't know. But like, tell us a little bit about the process that goes into it and all the stuff that you have to make sure is just right. Yeah, I mean, the key thing is consistency, just making sure that every single person that comes to the door on any given night, or slow Thursday, or really busy Saturday, is just it's always the same. It's always consistent at a high level.
And then in all the details and suit that makes that happen, you know, making sure that all the linens are pressed correctly, often checking the washers, make sure that they're always pristine so that when you're taking a dump and then you go back, it's completely the same every time. All the food is just top notch, no fingerprints on anything. Everything is just always consistent. And then just making sure that every time that you come back, it's the same, it's not better.
So that's usually your job because obviously, you know, your scope responsibility to train all this stuff to keep up this level of excellence. So that's like, what kind of time does the training take? You know what, four, okay. I'll just back up a little bit.
Our restaurant seats at maximum and I say maximum, 24 guests. Okay. So it's very small in operation. We try to also stagger everyone that comes in.
Just so we're not getting 24 guests all at the same time. For what our cuisine is, it's anywhere between 18 to 22 courses for your meal. So it's like it has a lot of detail, a lot of, you know, 18 times to 22 times I'm coming to your table to explain a dish. Yeah.
So just a lot of repetition, a lot of that. But because we're a smaller establishment, we have a smaller staff. And so far, the whole staff, for the most part, everyone's been there since the beginning. So a lot of us have seen the evolution of everything that's been going on.
Training can be more simplified as a lot of things we've seen before or a lot of things are not out of the realm of what we're used to. Chef makes a new dish every week about coming into it and him giving us a script and then kind of learning it the night before or even on the same service day. We become accustomed to it and we can start to learn techniques that are able, we're all able to be able to execute at a high level like that. So in regards to training, there's not that much anymore.
At the beginning, there was a little bit more. Just because a lot of the staff that had been there have never seen finding at that level before. That's like, OK, why are we doing things like dropping food from this way or why are we escorting people this way? Why does it have to be perfect?
Why does water have to be perfect, et cetera? Why does polished glass look much better than an unpolished glass? Why it doesn't even matter? And then having a team, this is the most important thing for me, and Chef, obviously, a team that buys into that program, you can just turn away and see people doing on their own small tasks, straightening out tables, or that come to a point where people take responsibility of what they're doing.
Oh, man, that makes my job so easy. And when it's a place like that, too, I think, especially people work there for a long time, and they do take pride in their work to assertive status. Not like they're just like, this is their job while putting themselves in school or whatever the fuck, right? People are committed to that restaurant.
So they want everything to be perfect, and that does make a job easier. Exactly. And also, there has a lot of, I mean, with stuff like the bear and whatever that movie is with the cheeseburger, the menu. A lot of just real negative connotations towards fine dining.
Everyone at the restaurant has a blast. Yeah. Just working. We all listen to Metallica while we work, and even sometimes it'll come out through service.
Believe it or not, if I die in the restaurant or listening to Metallica, it has a lot to do with just building a team that works like a family, and it's not as pretentious as it sounds being a wishless restaurant. Like, there needs to be a place in. And I think that that's shipped a little bit over the last, what, 10 to 20 years of fine dining where you can be fine dining, but not necessarily white linen, white gloves, tuxedo, like you see in song movies from the 50s or whatever. Like, there's more of a casualness to it now.
And that's a good thing. I think people would rather feel a little bit more relaxed, even if they're enjoying the experience as a whole. Sometimes it's cool to have that experience. Like, I've gone to a restaurant where I spend old bees with bow ties and like, yeah, it's cool.
It's very short. It's very thin. Like, where it's supposed to like, you don't really feel like you can relax as a guest. It's important just because a lot of what we try to do is showcase our personality.
And it starts from Chef, his personality is very outgoing. We like listening to music, and that's kind of what drives us in our service. A lot of the time, the specific playlist that we'll play, it also kind of reminds us where we're at in service. So let's say it's 7 o'clock when, and I promise you, this is at the restaurant.
It's 7 o'clock when Dangso's Paradise comes on. We know if we're behind somewhere in the meal, just because we know exactly where we should be at that time. Even though we're like, it's Jovial, and we're having fun, and you're listening to the song, you're like, wait, we're only on course X when we should be here. Let's speed it up.
So things kind of drive us that way. And it's also really fun to do things our way, and showcase our personality. We've kind of ditched the whole attire of, for fine dining, a suit, and something of address for our ladies and some of that. The building has to be a gas station.
So what we've kind of decided on is that, I have to show you a photo, we use coveralls, like automotive jumpsuits. Cool. Just because it's like, that's kind of the theme, and a former automotive business, and trying to play around with those old patches that say like, generic bob, or like, I'm not even going to be too aggressive, or trying to do stuff like that. And it just showcases our personality.
I think that's really important for something like fine dining. Nowadays, people are looking for experiences, and people are looking for something that's a little bit out of the normal, and something in our opinion, and dining should be fun. So I think now that people are like, at any cost more, it's more or more special to go, than it used to be. You want a cool experience, and you don't want to feel like it's like a very stuck up stuffy sort of situation.
You want to have fun too, right? And then you want to be able to get a noise at your table. Yes, 100%. Maybe not like, belagering.
Yeah, but yeah, yeah. And you know what, if you are, that means that you're having a good time, sure. And you just will try to monitor your drinking. But for us, if you're enjoying the experience, and you're more relaxed, nine times out of 10, you're going to enjoy the food a little bit more.
Oh, yeah, there's a science behind that. Like the whole experience together. 100%. Yeah, if the food tastes good, it puts you in a better mood, but also that works the other way around.
Yeah, if you're at a restaurant, and when you first go to a fine dining restaurant, and okay, you wear your best valley village suit, and you're going in, and you're kind of anxious about what you're wearing, and where you're going to be sad, and then you get sat behind this table with this guy that has like, Google box, and he's spending a bunch of money online, and like, I don't even want sparkling water, because like, it's $5 extra. And I feel not welcome, and I don't feel comfortable. I just get this plate of food, and I'm like, kind of trying to shovel it, because I don't know if I'm supposed to be enjoying this, or I'm not in the right kind of relaxed state to actually see this for what it is, and enjoy the food. And regardless of your company, if I'm not going to be in a state where I'm having a good time, like, I don't know, like, for me personally, I don't think that I'm going to be having a good time.
We're enjoying the food, it's best capabilities. It's cold in the room, I'm not going to enjoy it. If someone is over there and they're screaming, maybe I'm not going to enjoy it. I don't bring my kids out, because I know when I'm sitting beside the table, and I'm like, I know that they're kids, but they're crying, and you should probably take care of them.
But- I have a slide where people take the young children to find that, because establishments, like, if there's plenty of restaurants for four kids. Yeah. And then you, from my side, if they're spending a lot of money in my guy, whatever. So.
That's the other side, right? So, like, you mentioned that it's like several cores. Neil, do you have an out-guard menu as well, or is it just the course menu? Yeah.
Just the course menu. It's blind, too. So, I don't reveal, we don't reveal anything beforehand. You can't see anything on our website.
It's just, you come in and we feed you, and then we hope you enjoyed it, and you leave. And the blind parents as well. Yeah. And you do, like, what do you do for, like, out-gis or vegetarians, or is it just, like, maybe not the restaurant for you?
Yeah, that's kind of a tricky thing, because you really try to be inclusive to everyone, but also, you try to maintain the integrity of the vision that you're trying to uphold. So we don't accommodate allergies. So it's a little bit tricky if you do have, like, there are some things that we'll try to accommodate to our best, like, if you're expecting, yeah, we'll cook proteins, for example. But for us, just because we're a small restaurant, and tools and utensils are all across- Sure.
Contimiting. I don't feel safe accommodating a gluten allergy, just because, you know, we use our restaurants primarily revolving around Chinese cuisine. And it's like, okay, we use a lot of soy sauce, and it contains weed, and then we have a fryer, and then bubble, bubble, bubble, and just cascades into a situation where, if something were to go wrong, it's not safe, and, you know, we don't want that for anyone. So it's just generally recommended that we just can't, and it's probably not the best place for you.
Well, that makes sense. There's plenty of restaurants for people like that, right? Like, that's the thing, not every restaurant has to accommodate fucking everything. And the problem, too, is now, post-COVID, we live in a very different world now with how people go out, and how often they go out.
So that puts, like, a restaurant, like yours in a difficult situation, because, like, now everybody's, because restaurants have not ever their way to accommodate everyone to bring them in, it kind of, it's not the situation where a restaurant that doesn't puts you in a bit of an awkward position, but if you're, the conversion, if you're a smaller spot, you find your crowd so it cares. Totally. Yeah. I read this thing online about, I don't know if you're familiar with the book on reasonable hospital, the restaurant manager at 11 Madison Park.
It is just a lot of, kind of, focus on making sure that there's nothing that you can say, no to, to a yes. Yeah. And then I saw something online that has been, like, over the last few years after seeing that, you've developed this thing called the unreasonable guests. That's right.
Yeah. Okay. I can show up to this restaurant and I can not tell them about my allergies, and dietary restrictions. I can show up late.
Yeah. I can show up with the wrong amount of guests. I can show up not wanting this and that. And because it's fine dining, at least for my sector, they should be able to accommodate me because they've accommodated me around the world.
That's right. It's a fucking problem. And not every restaurant or bar is for every person. And you can find the one that you like to go to.
And the other thing, not everyone's a critic because they all have an outlet. Like, it's like, now someone can come to your bar and leave a shitty review. It's not because you did anything shitty at all. It's just because they didn't, your establishment wasn't specifically to their needs and tastes.
And that's how we do. No. And it's not what this has ever been about. Yeah.
And you know that as a business owner too, you're like, especially nowadays with people that have a platform, their own personal platform, i.e. Instagram or Google or whatever. Yeah. Well, they don't realize that that's like so detrimental to your business.
Not everyone is right. And no. And not every restaurant is supposed to be geared specifically to you as an individual. Like that is not how this game has ever worked.
But something to switch there. And cause like what you're saying, what this is the reason my hospitality. Like, it drives me mental because I, I was like, oh, we'll get a review from my bar. It's like cocktails were expensive.
Like fucking right there. That's what we do there. We spend a lot of time on the cocktails. The ingredients are like, it takes a lot of time to make them and pour them.
And the ingredients we buy are expensive. The drink tastes awesome. The cocktail is more expensive. If you don't want to experience some cocktail, we're not as proud of Joe's.
We're not as proud of Joe's. We're like, yeah, I totally agree. And it's all the intent behind it. You know, we're making things expensive because we're putting hours of research and development.
We're putting in premium ingredients. We're putting in the hard work and labor. We're discarding a lot of things that aren't working. You know, like, okay, we've created this product that we want to showcase to everyone.
We're proud of it. We want to charge this amount because we feel that it's worth it. And yeah, it's supposed to be that much. I can get this elsewhere and I can make this at home.
And you're like, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. And that's fine too.
I mean, it sucks for us because what you do you do eventually need people to come to our establishment. Sure, of course. It's also like, you get to a point, just pretty cold, we would literally just be able to say, what go fuck yourself, what else? Right.
And now we don't have quite that level of being able to do that anymore, unfortunately. But yeah. It sucks. One thing I want to ask you about, you said it's like you have sort of an Asian-based menu.
Yeah. So when you're pairing wines, and obviously you have a considerable wine back, right? What are wines that you pair with that specific style of food? What wines go best with those courses?
It's a lot of, there are a lot of wines that are, I guess, more complimentary to the food rather than something that is showy or something that can contrast. Something that just kind of allows the food to be more of a showcase, rather than being upfront and more showy. So let's say with spicy Chinese food, and sometimes often in rotations of the menu, we'll see spicey, sashmonde-based food. Resling is huge.
And because we do a lot of wine pairings, as the focal sale, as opposed to something that you would see it with like a bottle sale, more people are okay with like a little bit of resling, just because sometimes they don't want to order a whole bottle of resling or whatever. Fresh or red wines, we do a lot of burgundy wines, and that helps elevate the food a lot better. I only use wines from cool climate regions. This is just the philosophy that's been carried through with the whole restaurant.
We're trying to emulate the landscape of Ontario, and that is like cool climate Niagara, Prince Edward County, and I'll never use like a really bold Spanish red wine, just because it doesn't fit the ethos of our restaurant. And it's just wines that, you know, you could see that there is some potential in Ontario, and then I find a lateral adjacent to wherever in the world that does it a little bit better. If not, way better. But luckily the wine around here has got a lot better over the line.
No, the wine in Ontario. So I've been really apt to showcase now a lot of Ontario wine, and because we have some age on our wines, I'm able to talk to wineries and get back-fintages on wines and showcase to people in Ontario or people that are traveling. And now, because luckily with the Michelin star, people are coming from around the world and are curious about why is Ontario so special, showcasing a back-fintage Niagara resling from let's say like 2015, and just seeing that, oh man, like we can have wine at just obviously against the age and the potential of the region is growing and there is a real highlight to that. And we're getting much better, but also there's just a lot of it.
And we're able to backsource things. We're able to see that up and coming producers are making some really great wines and trying to find the balance just to show people that are either from the region that have still no idea that we have great wine in Ontario, but also people from around the world that are really curious that are like, well, Ontario's not really known for wine. Let me show you that we can be. Yeah, yeah, that's great.
And that makes a lot of sense when you're talking about food as well, because what you would say is that you don't want a big, bold red that's going to overwhelm them. Yeah, so especially when you're doing it in small places like that, right? Like you just take one out one that is completely dwarf-filed, like a real hour whenever. Yeah, which can be great if you're celebrating a special occasion or if you're a wine collector and you just want to open these wines, and I don't care, I'll open them and if you were apt to showcase the syrufranz or drink it, I'm not sure.
But then it's like, okay, the theme of gastronomy can be cohesive when you talk about wine and food, and you can really showcase that wines from the region can really complement food. And we have really great wineries in Ontario that really can do that. And it's also like going back to me and said, we talked about this on the show, we thought, but a few times at least, like it really is the dias experience. If they, at the end of the day, if you are happy with whatever wine you brought it or chose to eat this grape course and that's how you want to go, good for you.
Absolutely. Yeah, if you want to let me guide you, it probably it'll showcase a little bit better, but some people are just like, I don't like wine or like, you know what I mean? Right? And you know what?
Yeah, sure. Just do it. Let's do it. Sure.
Okay, let's back up. Like way back. How did you first get into the service industry? What was your first job?
Where were you? Yeah. So I started the service industry when I was in high school. I actually was very curious about it and I joined a co-op and then I, you know, they sent me to this random Italian restaurant and I was washing a bunch of basil and dancing tomatoes and I actually was really happy with that.
And I'm just seeing that, you know, a lot of the hard work that goes into the back end and seeing the final finished product. You're like, okay, this is really cool to see that every step of this business means a lot to the final product and to the people that are spending a lot of money to do this. Ended up finishing the co-op and then I had a friend that got me a job at this private club in Toronto called Sobblehouse. Okay.
I ended up working as a prep cook there and ended up also doing a lot of pizza out front where I could see all these rich people just, you know, spending money and drinking. And I was like, wow, this is kind of cool. Yeah. And then so I started in the back of house where I was cooking and just for me, I've always loved talking to people and, you know, you are in a small little enclosed space where you're talking to the same people for a very long time, you know, every week for 40 hours a week just talking to the person that's just working beside you.
It's cool. Sure. Anyone you're not seeing a lot of natural light and when you're cooped up for a long time, especially in the Toronto winters, I wanted to do something where I talked to people, but I still love the industry. So I moved up to be a barista, worked in specialty coffee for a little bit, doing lattes and cappuccinos and making specialty coffee for a really expensive price tag.
And I decided I didn't want to wake up at 6 a.m. in every morning. Yeah. This is whatever.
That's a cool experience for the service industry that not everyone goes through, though. Like that's very true. Yeah, being doing that coffee and airship, there's like teachers do a little something that maybe that's probably the only job I haven't done. And at work, the places where I had to make like obviously, you know, those are whatever.
But I was always pretty sure they had it because I never like focused in on doing that. And I'm like my full focus and it teaches you a lot of flavor profiles. It does. It's so niche and because it's it's just coffee, right?
And you have to really sus the nuances behind it. Because for the average consumer, it's just OK. Bitter. Yeah.
I know. OK, well, sure. And then you listen to this guy that is like tasting coffee and you're like, there are stone fruit notes and florality and tropical notes. And you taste your coffee and you're like, this is just bitter.
Yes. OK, there must be something to this or he's just full of crap. And then you start to develop the palette and you start to find those nuances. For me, it was fine.
And then after you don't make a lot of money and you like, we're gonna burn you. I was like, OK, sure. So I ended up bartending for a long time after that. In Toronto also.
In Toronto. Yeah. Yeah. I worked out a bar called Boxcar Social.
Oh, yeah. I was there for a long time and it was really cool. Got to meet a lot of cool people. And then I decided, OK, maybe it's time to explore things other than bartending.
I love bartending. Don't get me wrong, but I love talking people. Let's explore what's serving as going to a restaurant. I was like, OK, I mean, more bar, more money bartending.
But let's try this and keep going at it for a little bit. So I did. I worked for the Oliver and Bar Chini hospitality group for a bit. And I was like, that was really cool.
It's a good training round though. Yeah, they do a really good job giving you the fundamentals of what it means to be a server. What means to work in the hospitality industry. And they do their due diligence to give you all the tools to.
Yeah, there's some ways I would say, like if people come to my bar with a resume that has like an OMB or locally is the charcoal group, does that the best? And like, if that's on your resume, I'm probably going to hire you. There's so much going on. You already know that I don't teach you.
Exactly. Now here's the way we do it here. Right. Yeah.
Right. And then you just kind of shift their focus to adapt to what you're trying to do. Right. The fundamentals are there and it's great.
Then I was like, OK, there has to be more than this. I'm a really competitive person. I played a lot of sports and I was like, OK, I think I'm the best over here. Why can't I go work at one of these like, find outing restaurants?
So I applied and got the job at this find outing restaurant called Freeloo. It was one of the first missionless restaurants and when the Michelin guy came here. And I got my butt kicked. Yeah.
So it's a big day to the huge job. Right. Huge jump. And so I came in and I kind of shadowed the server and I was just listening into his descriptions and I'm like, OK, this is one dish and then two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 12 dishes later.
I'm like, how do you know all this information? Like, and then just seeing all the details and how he's like placing things and how the chef wanted things to come out and, you know, things have to be like a certain way. I was like, oh, this is like so cool. And it really drew my attention.
And then I came in and I really kicked my butt because I had never needed to learn anything so in depth for that ever. OK, this is cool. And you just start to develop these habits and kind of just take that. Like, this is what I really want to do.
And I want to see that I can take this thing called serving and treat it as a sport and really try to take it to the next level, like kind of hold my craft. And, you know, this sounds so silly, but right before service, like I'll stretch. Well, fuck it. Did you get all the eating?
Yeah, but like these things like, you know, mentally preparing myself, going through notes and, you know, I go with the team and I do a lot of research on our guests on all times and, you know, I'll show them. And this is like really creepy, but this is this guest at table two at seven o'clock. This is their LinkedIn and like just kind of treat it as like a scouting report or a playbook. And yeah, you know, just like really treat it as something like kind of competitive just so that you have an advantage going forward into service.
You not to say that I'll go to a table and go, Hey, John Smith, I know you work at Google. So wait a minute. Don't stop your addresses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then they leave. What's right? Let's do this. Creepy.
When I was standing outside your apartment, I noticed. Yeah, we close that deal. And there's like so many things that you can add to a typical quote unquote serving position where you can really take it to the next level. And I think that's like something that I find a lot of joy in and then have a lot of fun and I'm fortunate enough that I can make this a career.
So that's pretty cool. And it's like very dedicated. So it's like, yeah, it's like, I like what you're saying is right on the borderline of creepy, but not. You're just doing like awesome research on like you've got to lease with it.
And you don't even have to let them know that you can do information. No, not at all. You might just leave one thing that helps you. Yeah.
Serve that guess a little bit. Yeah, exactly. Cool. Now that we have this, that I'm surprised more people don't do that.
I guess like, like, my place is like high volume bars. We don't have to do this. No way. We would do that.
But like a restaurant like yours, it kind of makes sense. Like, why, why is everyone doing that? Like that might be the next innovation. Just because it's lower volume, you have a smaller window to retain gas.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, if there's only 16 guests that are coming for dinner this night, I have 16 chances to make a repeat guest, right? And you have them for a small window and you really try to do your best to make sure that they have a good time.
People are spending a lot of money to be out there and you're like, OK, let's make sure that it's all worth it. We're catering to what they want. We're trying not to be intrusive, but also like, I know that your birthday is not today. And I just so happened to creep that maybe you like football, right?
I send the server that loves football to talk to you. Right. And I'll just drop to it. And it's too cool too, because like as you get older as a server and like more experience and whatever, like one of our superpowers is that you can pretty much almost read a person who's like walking through.
But this is the thing that takes you over the edge. Because even when you're saying about, oh, I see like football, like you can't, like that takes a conversation. Yeah. Sometimes you don't really have time for that.
Maybe you don't like a dive bar or whatever, like a regular comes into your bar. You're eventually going to flesh that out. But to be able to do that at like a restaurant like that, you need like a small time that you have with them. That's cool.
Yeah. Try your best. And a lot of it also has to do with trying to suss out the people that let's just say that I will have an advantage if I know that this is a avid Google three star reviewer. I've seen that they go to restaurants and nothing pleases them.
Right. Service is great. Food was exceptional three out of five stars. He he what does that mean?
Like how do you get to that next level? Or what does that mean to be an exceptional restaurant for you? Yeah, it's having three three three. Yeah.
And if I know that, OK, I can just suss out through all of your experiences and just go from the jump. How do I make this exceptional for you? Yeah, I'm going to get to five. Four even.
Four. Yeah. You know, and even if it's three, it doesn't matter. It does hurt.
But at least like at least we can internally know that we try. Yeah, it's just that that's just being your competitive nature. That's like four. Yeah.
But reviews are pretty disappointing when you're like, you know that you had they had a good time. It's hard. Like I personally had to stop for you. Like because I would just get to frustrated and then like I was like, and even at my last bar, my bar, the most recently sold, like GM would read them incessantly.
And I'm like, if you drive yourself crazy, it's like these people don't, they're not qualified to review you. Just sucks. Yeah. Like there's nothing that you can do.
And you end up going down a rabbit hole. We're like, OK, like we could have done this and this and the owner and I, the chef were like, OK, let's step back. Everything was fine. Yeah.
You just can't you just can't please everyone. They just flatter live a lot of times. Like maybe they don't even feel like they're lying, but like clearly their understanding of what occurred is completely from a different planet. Right?
Yeah. And what that paddy fight that you can't. The review is just so much in the power of the guest. It's a great like an incredibly one-size situation.
Now, restaurant reviews always were one-sided, but at least the people who used to do them like when it was done in a newspaper. They were objective. They were objective and they were ostensibly qualified. Right.
Right. Totally. You know that this person has been to all of the great restaurants. They're like, OK, cool.
Sure. Whatever. Maybe we didn't do this. Like the people who got the fucking Michelin stars know what to talk about.
Yeah. Like, so those people are qualified to review your restaurant. Yeah. Fucking Joe Smow comes in and didn't like the way that the hairstyle that they're silver had.
Yeah. One star. And you know what happens more often than not. And it sucks.
Yeah. That was much a repeat guess. Now, be located in Cremeore. For those that don't know, first they describe Cremeore a little bit for the listeners.
But how difficult is location-wise? Make it for you folks. Especially in the winters. I don't know what you guys with the last two winters have been crazy.
And for us, just because we're so close to Georgia Bay, it's rough. I don't know what happened to this global warming shit. I've been burning tires in my backyard. Oh my god.
It's just bad. It's not that warm enough. It's like the last two winters for us have just been awful. And from my side, I feel sympathy for the guests that travels from Toronto, like two hours north and then two hours back home because some of them don't stay over.
Yeah. Just fine. So it's difficult. Cremeore can be a little bit difficult as a point of destination.
But I think that there's a little bit of a magical nuance to what this whole Michelin guide thinks is a destination. We've established ourselves as a destination. But for business, it can be a little difficult because sometimes we have to make cancellations and I'm sympathetic to cancellations because I know that you're from Toronto, you don't have winter tires. Like you probably are going to struggle getting up.
So I won't let you risk your life for the cost of a cancellation. Just stay home. On the plus side though, we have a lot of guests that are from Collingwood and a lot of well-healed people living well. A lot of the adjacent regions around Collingwood.
There's a lot of money there. They've been definitely looking for something that is of a bit of an upper upchelon of a restaurant and it's nice to see that we get the sport of the locals too. Oh, that's good. Yeah.
But it's cool. There's a lot of definitely an opportunity for those guests that can spend that kind of price tag. But because we're a special location restaurant, a lot of people seek out to enjoy a special location at where we are. Nine times out of a time it's like a birthday or a retirement or an anniversary or milestone on a event.
And because we book out two months in advance. Oh, wow. Yeah. So right now we're both till the end of March.
Oh, that's right. I saw in the site, they have a book for April opening start of February 15th, something like that. Yeah. So we launched two months in advance.
So people plan their lives and can kind of figure it out. Okay. So yeah, we don't get like a walk in or anything like that. Yeah.
Yeah. So beyond the prestige of it, would you say that the most important thing about the Michelin star is the fact that it makes your spot a destination spot? Sure. I think that the, oh, this is, I have to tread lightly.
I guess the only, the most simple, not the only. The most important thing about the Michelin star thing for us is that it guarantees business. Right. Yeah.
For us, it's not the means to an end. Like obviously it's a really prestigious accolade. Everybody likes to be able to say it, right? Sure.
And it does contribute to our ego. Just fantastic. But for us, it's really trying to do what we want. Yeah.
It does open some doors that way, right? To be like, just kind of like, you don't, you've already got this designation. Yeah. And you like to keep it, but it does like give you the opportunity.
And you're mostly going to keep it by just maintaining the quality of your service and the food. Yeah. But it does open the door to kind of be more creative, right? You can just say, screw this.
Change everything and stuff. This is what we do now. It's almost like a star for freedom. It is.
Which you, we, we don't take for granted because we just know what it is like if you don't have it because it doesn't guarantee as much business. Like last week alone, we had guests from Hong Kong, New York, San Francisco, and you're like people truly when they're traveling for business for the most part. They look at the guide, they go, okay, this restaurant is of interest to me. Let's go.
Let's go. Tick, tick, tick, tick. There's some guests that just look at the guide and go, I haven't been here yet. So I don't care.
We'll take that business. It's business. It's business. And they're travelers and you expect that they know what they're talking about and that they can enjoy it for what it is and enjoy finding what we're trying to achieve.
So it keeps our business full, which makes a big difference, especially for like myself where I'm ordering wine. Okay. I know we're full for the next two months. I know this wine is going to be depleted.
I know I can order this amount. I know I'll get this much back in profit. I know that we'll generate this much revenue that we're able to do this project in the future, et cetera, et cetera. It's not to worry about people ordering that specific wine.
You're already serving it to them. Exactly. You've opened it, you're pairing it, and you're ready to go. It's done.
That really helps for sure. Especially as much wine, location where you're at, it must have just turned your business around over and then crazy. It helps a lot and we're so grateful. Well, I'd like you to do the work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I won't take too much of that credit. I came in at a time where they were really pushing and when we got it, it just allowed for us to explode. You know, they got the star whatever date at whatever time.
And then it just was like, okay, game on. And we were able to just kind of suss out what we want to do and just bring in all these different cool products. Okay, well, let's try this. It doesn't work.
Scrap it next and just be creative. It's like the pressure to get it when you're really trying to get it and getting it is almost like an explosion, like our gas like explosion of like, now we can do what we want to do. It's crazy. That's what it's like.
What an experience to go through. Yeah. The people though that question, because people all the time go, so how do you even get the star or how do you tell who is this like, inspector that is like looking at if you've dropped a spoon? The pressure that you would feel with making sure that all of those details are there is important.
But to be honest, we're at a point where we've done enough repetitions and we're so comfortable with ourselves that it's fine. It's just like robotic. Yeah. Yeah.
Like another question too, but you mentioned obviously the experience and earlier on you touched on music. What do you guys do for music? It's fun. We play everything.
Fleetwood Mac will come on and we'll play up and then we'll truly play Metallica. They're different every night than two. It's sometimes like a thing. You're not going to be a list like you knew some song was going to go right.
We've got a curated list based on what we want to play. Let's just say at 8.30 the who will come on and you just kind of know where you're at. But it does change kind of with the season and also how we feel and how Jeff Jeremy feels. And it's music can be really fun because sometimes you least expect a song that you know and you sing along to and you wouldn't have expected that this played at a finining restaurant and you're like, wow, this is fun.
And all of a sudden you get the bill. Yeah. At least. Okay.
Oh shoot. This was. Oh yeah. So yeah, we try to keep it as Jovial as possible.
But also we keep a set playlist, but we like to rotate things. Yeah. Got you a question. Cool.
I want to back up again to talk about like when did you first start getting into a wine which would be locations because I don't sure obviously the courses I could develop in my program in a year as song and so on. So like when you first start getting into wine and talk to us about how you got excited about it. And then when you like I've done a few of the courses, it's a lot of work like that like what point were you like, okay, I'm willing to put in this work and keep going with it. Yeah.
I think right right away when I first went to this fine dining restaurant, I was talking to you guys about free Lou. They laid out this menu and then all these wacko pairings and I'm like, for me in my background is in one and I looked at it and I was like, okay, cool. But what does that all mean? You're looking at all these tasting notes and I can just sing or kind of gather based on my coffee knowledge prior to going to this restaurant.
Okay, you can kind of translate all of this there and then finding out that all of this has to do with pairing with food. Like whoa, this wasn't the case with coffee. This was just coffee was just coffee. And then there's this kind of unison with wine and food.
So you do W said I did W said one and two and three and then I got into different restaurants. I helped open a restaurant in Toronto called Mineral. That's really close to hard because it's a Filipino restaurant. I still love those guys and then the pandemic hit it.
I came back home and then after I got married and my wife and I went to live in Guelph. In Guelph I ended up splitting my time between a restaurant that has a star called Hexagon in Oakville and then I worked at Langen Hall. I kind of split my time between there, also studying and learning and then just kind of developing my palate as I was able to try all these wines. You can afford to taste all these wines.
So you're just like in the mix and guests are bringing these wines in. You're invited to different wineries and wineries are showcasing these wines. I started to travel a little bit more. You go to Barcelona, you try all these cool wines at fancy restaurants.
You end up going to wineries and kind of going from there. For me it was just an evolution of my wine journey just by experience. Just going to places and actually seeing wine for what it is and also objectively seeing this as a vehicle to food. A lot of songs are more apt as wine as the kind of focal point.
I see it as part of the whole. You know what I mean? I'm supposed to just like wine as the end all be all. Because I'm also a general manager I see things like as a little bit of a bigger picture where wine is a big portion of the bill.
But not the whole thing and to be honest as my career keeps going, wine is always going to be always great but I've seen over the years wine deteriorating in terms of prestigious sales. More people are just apt to do the wine experience for just tasting a range of wines to fit with a cuisine as opposed to a Krone Kruberg and D or a first-growth bar dough. Those are for the generation of the past. Right now people are more apt to see how things are done cohesively.
That's kind of where my trajectory is. I think it's like, I like to do this but there's been a bit of a shift where people, the day of sitting down for a big piece of me with a poor dough or a calicab. Not what people are into anymore. They like what you guys are doing.
I want to try a bunch of different things. Give me an array. If you're getting an array of wine, I get an array of wine at the same time that is specifically paired to your experience. That's cool.
As opposed to like, I ate this one meal and I had this one bottle of wine. If you're going out for it. I think this might be cool. I can really never think of this one because I think of a lot of butter.
I think because people go out less frequently now, everything's gotten more expensive. COVID taught people new habits. Whereas you used to go out maybe two or three times a week. Now you go out once a month.
So it's going to be more special occasion. So you want a grander experience. You're about to go one time. More variety.
So restaurants that do parry menus like yours or tapas restaurants, small plates. Let me try a bunch of different things. Try a bunch of different kinds of parryings with it. That's almost the new normal.
When I go to a cocktail bar, I've already planned that I'm not going to try to go. I'll go, these are the cocktails on your list. Why don't I try them all? Am I supposed to going, OK, I want the classic cocktail or I want just this one thing.
I want to just see what the business has created. So that would mean a lot for when I go to a restaurant and look at their wine tasting menu. I'm like, I could look at your wine list. But why don't I just get instead for the same amount of value that I'm paying for one bottle?
Ten different classes. Yeah, sure. Whatever. Yeah, I like what you said about the cocktail studio.
Going back to the great dress, when we've been on the show a couple of times now, and we love him. He said the very first time that he came on a show that he was like, you know, as a bartender. When I go to someone's bar, if they have a signature cocktail list, I will get something off their list because someone put the time in the doing it, right? Absolutely.
Someone put the time in the doing it. And he's like, and maybe I'll go back to my what I would normally drink after that first drink. But I'm at least going to get one drink off that signature cocktail list because someone put the time to fucking make it. Absolutely.
Yeah. Because then you get a sense of what the establishment is. You get to see, OK, they've taken the time to develop their syrups, their tinctures to the specific cocktail. Why wouldn't I try that?
Yeah, exactly. If it sucks, then OK, I'll have a new groaning. That's totally fine. And if it's awesome, then it may be more likely to be like, what's next.
And then I'll go, when I go to a bar now, I'll go in the heaven signature cocktail list. I'm like, OK, this is the one that fits my particular taste palette the most, what I'm mostly going to try that. And if I love it, the very next one is like, what would you recommend that I drink? What's your favorite one to be?
And then I'll go to that and then maybe you keep going, or maybe you've got to go home. But maybe it's too long. Yeah. Maybe it's too late.