E99 Jonathan Gushue

This week we are joined by special guest and world-renowned chef Jonathan Gushu. We talk with Jonathan about his unique early experiences working in the Japanese Alps, in the Lake of the Woods area in Kenora, Ontario, in London, England, and how these experiences, along with several others, helped shape his culinary career. We discuss the economics and the hospitality industry and how operators have to provide more than just a paycheck to employees in this day and age. Jonathan talks about his culinary style and how he's influenced by the local surroundings and regional producers and how he ties that all in together to create a sense of place.

And we discuss creating value for price-paid in today's competitive restaurant climate. Enjoy the show. So, we're going to do another episode of the industry podcast. I'm Kip Saunders.

I'm your host with me as always. Producer extraordinaire Dan Saretta. How are you? Well, thanks.

Just enjoying this lovely little snowball we had today on January 17th. Yeah, we're going on the 17th. I've been struggling all day, so that was great fun. Yeah, about 47 years of snow.

And it's all going to melt in a couple days. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's a lot of first-world problems we got. I should get this out of the way.

I keep getting burnt for not promoting my own shit on my own show. So, I should say that we are doing bottle shot to go at both bars right now. Sugar run downtown Kitchener, uptown, and Babylon Sisters. So, just stay posted to both those Instagrams.

And if you want to find out when we're doing bottle shops and at Babylon Sisters, if you're brave enough, you can even sit on our patio and have a drink. Yeah. Hard pickety. Yeah, exactly.

Okay, so we got a great guest for you as always this week on the industry podcast. Chef Jonathan Gucci will be joining us very shortly. Before we get to him, we should say that you should be subscribing to the show if you like it. If you want to leave a rating and a review, that also helps us tremendously.

And if you'd like to be a guest on the show and if you've got a service industry story to tell, then you should email us directly at info at theindustrypodcast.club or you can Instagram, or DM us on Instagram at the industry podcast. Yes, and then I contact info in the show notes as always. And we shout out as always again to Zacana at Zacana.co for the artwork he does for the Instagram, just fantastic. And we should also mention that you should be checking out the archives.

Lots of great recent shows. We had K-Dram Bosoul recently. We had Andrew Daughamani Jackson and Heather Scholzdahl. Yeah, Heather Scholzdahl recently.

That was a very interesting episode. So if you didn't check that one in from last week, you should. Our podcast always drops on all your major platforms at 4 p.m. Eastern Standard Time on Mondays.

And so enough about us, let's get to our guest, Jonathan Gucci was with us. How you doing, Jonathan? And well, thank you for having me. Thanks for doing it.

We appreciate it. Come on the show. I was going over your bio that you sent to me earlier because the responsible host does this kind of research. And it's responsible, eh?

That's what I was going to say. So I noticed that you were you had written that you would kind of started out training in the Japanese Alps. I thought that was pretty interesting. Talk to us a little bit about how that came to be and what did you learn there?

That was pretty amazing. That came to be that was actually a program offered by the conservatives when they were in power in Newfoundland that they started doing a lot of training, or a lot of training directly with the Japanese with the Cape and fishery. And what they wanted was they were anticipating more tourists to Newfoundland which they get quite a bit up because the icebergs. So they wanted to integrate and they were pretty head on this.

So this is 20 years ago. They sent about a dozen of us from Canadian hospitality. A majority from Newfoundland, about six of us from Newfoundland. And we went all over Japan.

We all didn't go together. They separated us all. And sort of with the idea that we would learn Japanese and we would learn to culture and everything like that. I was there for almost two years.

And you're just sort of scratching the surface on such a monumental country. Like it's so much to it. And it's history is so much older than ours. And just really just what we did learn is that you can't understand a culture and a people in just 18 months.

But as far as the experience goes, it was unbelievable. It was very difficult to acclimate. Talk about six months. And every day we would all, we lived with a bunch of, when I was there, 20.

I tell people this, they don't really believe it. I lived in the house with 15 Australians and a Russian band. You can imagine what that was like. We joke.

They said, all of the winter here, what is it? They said, hold on to your liver. And so it was one of those kind of places. It was a lot of fun.

We were young, I was 20. So I mean, there was a lot to learn. And then you thought, I think the biggest thing, we all learned out of it. Like we all still, a lot of us were still in touch because we considered it wasn't interesting.

It was a rough experience because you have no choice but to acclimate. You're an acclimate or you're out. So that was from a westerner that was thinking the sunshine out of your ass. It was very different.

And would you know what probably the most beneficial experience for me was actually the minority. And when you're treated as a minority. That was an interesting experience. All around.

I think it framed my cooking, it framed me as a person. But anyone is thinking about doing it. Do your research. It is, I worked for a Japanese company, which is apparently unheard of because no matter what, you're always a guy, or a foreigner.

So there's the foreigner level. So everyone's above you, even the dishwashers. So if you can, it's kind of, it's that way, they play with you a long time. Like they play with your mind and see how you're going to react.

It's really a very different kind of experience than just going into a normal western kitchen. You train your lead. There's a whole, in the Japanese kitchen, there's a whole culture you have to adopt and understand first before you eat the star. But we had fun times.

I mean, certainly one fun experience I had that would be different was, I went in, I got a job as a chef at party. I was in there about three hours and they told me the chef came over and started yelling at me in Japanese. And basically I was told I didn't even know what a holding knife I'd like to use one. So they were, you know, so they took my knives away for a week.

And then I was allowed to peel things. Then I went on the peeling, I would only allow for three months. I learned what they said to use my knife. I had to, I would just peel a panel.

That's all I did for three months. And that was, that was from five thirty in the morning to nine thirty at night. And then they, and what was interesting too, is the psychological kind of game they play, is that I was working in Garamoy J and we did, this was a very big hotel. Like we had sixteen hundred rooms.

So we would do about an average of eight eighty, I remember it's eight hundred eighty people for dinner every night. And we did, we did a western section. So we, you know, cook steaks and did, but all, you know, steaks are big thing. And their beef is very important.

And we, you know, they cook it their way and they also have like a grill that they cook a western way. So they get that sort of experience in Japan, a western experience in Japan. But also doing, you know, traditional Garamoy J work, which, you know, is a lot of, you know, for, you know, so many people, you wish to use a slicer or things like that. So as long until I learned to use a knife, no one in the kitchen was allowed to use a slicer.

So you, you know, through that psychological way of making people learn, you learn pretty fast. Right. Because you're, as, as a team, you know, everyone's just layering at you every day. It's like, you know, you're holding up the teams.

And it's like the equivalent of a coach making like some, the whole team run laps if one guy fucks up. That's right. Yeah. You're only a strong, you're only a strong, you're just like, right.

Oh, that's interesting. Okay. So you grew up in Newfoundland? Yeah.

And then so when did you discover your sort of love for cooking and that was kind of what you were, you realized that you wanted to do with your life? I really, I discovered it very early. I just didn't think just for given, I mean, I still got a little bit today wearing a bit too much about other people think. So at that time, when I was when I wanted to cook and I knew I wanted to cook, I honestly felt I couldn't because it was one of those jobs that people did if they couldn't do anything else.

And so, you know, and my dad was a judge. So really, you know, trying to tell him that I wanted to be a cook, you know, it was just like he just, it didn't, it didn't compute. So I sort of avoided it for many years. And you know, kind of kept the, I was always in the industry.

So I was always, you know, started about as a busboy when I was 13 and then just went from there, you know, really working through hotels and restaurants, but always in front of house because I was just, I didn't have the courage to really tell my father because you're my father, like everything, right? Like with that age group, you know, my dad would have been about 91 by now. So he, you know, felt, you get a degree. So I was working towards, you know, a bachelor of science, you know, specializing in hospitality.

And then what I did, what did happen is that I finally felt that, and everyone was telling me at the time, and it's just a little bit about 91 or 92 that I would have been trying desperately trying to get into four seasons. So tell us now at the time, they only had about 14 hotels worldwide. And they were super luxury. They were the most luxurious places in the world.

And they still had a heavy, heavy focus on cuisine. So the training was amazing. But the only job, I mean, I don't know how many letters I wrote. I got at least like 40, probably rejection letters from four seasons in probably 18 months.

And eventually finally got one. I think they just said, look, get this guy something. And I got a job as a, this was, so I was applying for like front office, like front desk for anything like that, because that was my degree. So they said, look, we can get you a job as a breakfast coach to assist that.

And that he launched four seasons flying resort in North Ontario, if you want. And that was, if you want to join this company, that's what you got to do. So I did it a lot of fun living on like the woods really cool, but I did basically, I got that, I couldn't for my first day. It was just such an amazing outlet for creativity, you know, the freedom they had.

And I was surrounded by all these people that were coming from this resort, you just don't be open about five months a year. You could, it was applying in resorts. So at the time, I mean, no one does that anymore, but at the time it was like the way to be super, you know, bougie, I suppose. Yeah.

At that time, you know, they had all their cooks were coming in from all over the world. They were from Thailand, France, Spain, Belgium, Austria, like it was unbelievable because I mean, the core of four seasons at the very beginning was all culinary, it was very much, it started all that advice on top of German chips. So they were all, how they all got so involved with the German, with the Canadian company, I don't know, but that's the way it works. So it was really fascinating to see like how all these people work together.

And I just couldn't like how they traveled in a way, a lot of them lived, like they would spend, they would come to the summers for, in working in Canora and then they would go back to the West Indies and the winter and work at Nevis for Seasons Nevis and things like that. Or even like a lot of them traveled between Four Seasons of relationship, like in Chiang Mai and Bangkok and even Singapore and all that. It was just, I just was immediately, I was taken. So then I finally made the call to my father and said, you know, I want to switch, going to culinary and well, you know, he hung up.

And then I think he talked to me, I don't know, I think he called me about three months later and accepted it. But then I mean, the great nice thing is he said, you know, I'm really glad that you had the courage to do this because to be honest, I hated every day of the law that I've been in and do a job like actually watching you and see how much you love work and how much work when you're not at work for work. He said, he just, he maybe thought it was very everybody and it was really, it's really turned around because he became very happy to see that, you know, it was funny and he's more of the honestly, believe people weren't happy with work. That's just not the way it was.

Right. You just worked to live and not the other way around. Yeah. You can.

I mean, but I think that, you know, when I lived to work either, I mean, people were all searching for now and now we need to balance and then find that, you know, we can all find that nice balance, you know, well, apparently we'll all be much better people. Yeah, that's what I hear. I'm still working on it. So then you also did some studying or working, working as well in London, correct?

Yeah. I think it's a good experience because obviously London, especially high-end restaurants in London, and bars and restaurants, it's, I mean, world renowned, right? Yeah, I went from, so I went right from Japan. The idea in Japan was, I was looking at jobs in Sydney in London, is where I wanted to be specifically.

I got a call from, I did get a call from, he was the executive chef at the Swallow Royal Hotel in Bristol. So I actually went to Bristol first and worked there with Michael Kitz for a year who was the head of a culinary electric team for Great Britain and he, that's where I got into a lot of charcuterie and dreams and that's where it was the most exposure. Like, I couldn't believe, I kind of bullshitted my way into that position. I told him, you know, kind of fluffed up what I could do.

And then I really, I found myself a net job in Hot Water for a long time. But I learned so much because this guy was unbelievable. Like, he would write menus, we would have daily menus. So we had a normal, we had a fine dining restaurant and all day restaurant in this hotel.

We had a bar in Atlanta, which was pretty upscale. He also, we also had a daily menu for both restaurants, which is crazy. And this guy was not, like, he would write, you know, menus probably 40 weeks out, like up to 40 weeks out, I remember we had one of those. And that was, so you knew everything.

So, but we had a train in the day, I mean, a train or charcuterie takes, that's a great deal of planning. So, I mean, it was an amazing experience for me. You know, for organization in the kitchen and it got, and the Brits are really obsessed with food, which I'd be a Canadian. I've never really, I never had that experience.

I mean, I learned more in England than I did in Japan. I mean, it was kind of different when I learned in Japan. I learned a lot more about respect in Japan than I learned about food, I think. But in England, you know, the first job taught me is sort of organization.

And then, and then really the great exposure to European products. Like I'd never seen a truck like never seen a truck like, you know, only all of the pictures. I'd never seen all these amazing, like, poi novec and, and a floss and all these cheeses that everyone talked about, Kontal and Comte. And then I, and then what it turns, so this is where the bullshit comes in is that I sort of said I was, you know, I was, you know, the head of this garment, Jay Department for, you know, that's her 880 people night.

So you think of me writing as the buyer for all this stuff. No. Really quite pretty. So obviously the guy selling figured this out pretty quick.

He's like, this guy doesn't have a fucking clue. He's doing it. So they send me down. They were just like the way to it.

They had a grandma, Jay, goes and buys the cheese. So I went and got the cheese and, you know, long story short, I absolutely got my ass handed to me when I got back. You know, besides that, I didn't know what I was just like, oh my God, that's the thing. I was like, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I didn't really have a concept of like during the season of what a black paragord truffle costs. I mean, I knew it's expensive, but I had no idea that it was that expensive. It was more than gold. You know, so I learned so much so fascinating.

And because it was just so, it was all like everyone had to, you really didn't get training. Like everyone was sort of hitting the ground running. And it was very difficult. I mean, I think I was thankful that it was one of those jobs that you were there, sort of 730, you know, it was 9 o'clock start, but you really didn't get positive hands.

And then it didn't finish till about 11 or 12 at night. And I really think that was the only thing that constant where I really didn't know what I was doing. I think the only thing that helped me is that I was always there. I was able to sort of offer or control it all.

I had, I was so fortunate to have like three of these amazing French apprentices that saved my ass on a daily basis. So it was, I know it was a lot. I looked back a lot, but I was scared shit. It was every day there.

Yeah. So did that interrupt you? But like how did these experiences sort of shape how you run a kitchen now? Like do you find the value in like sort of on the job training as opposed to like book learning and going to school?

Or is it like, what is the best scenario to be like sort of a mesh of the two? Be away one more heavily than the other? I don't, I think it really depends. Like if you live in New York City or anything like that, you know, really, you know, if you, you're in a city that you could stay and essentially work at 20 great restaurants throughout your life.

And, and if you do it in that manner, you wouldn't really need school because you're getting better training. Like if you're going to La Bernadette, I don't think any of that, I don't think any of that, I don't think anyone's going to go away, you didn't go to school. So, so I think it depends. Like I think if, you know, there were people in college listening to this, like I would, if you want to travel, if you want to work in other countries, that's when your credentials become important.

Like if I didn't have a degree from a culinary school, I wouldn't have been able to work in England. I was in London, it was incredibly important. And that's all you need. They didn't care if you had certification now.

If you had like, if you were a trade certified chap, I'd never in my life and ask that question anywhere. Okay. Okay. So when you get back from London, where do you go from there?

And what then, you have at some point you land here in Kitchenerwater, Lou, what, what made you go from? Well, from London, I went to the four seasons or the Wedgewood Vancouver and then went to the four seasons of Vancouver and then got tramp, during SARS, I was transferred. I was kind of, I mean, I was kind of fortunate for me, but during SARS, I was transferred to the four seasons in Toronto. But they said, they basically said you can, it was kind of like go to Toronto or leave or quit.

So I didn't, I really, I mean, I was, I was, I was in the west coast, you know, and, you know, kind of, I remember in that week prior, I said, you know what, I could live here and then the figures, you know, Murphy's Law. But then, but it was very fortunate for me, because when I arrived in, in Toronto, I got to work with Lynn Crawford and Jason Plow, who were amazing. I also got to work under Thomas Bellock for a while. But I got, I got, they put me in his, I got the chef's job at Truffles.

And, you know, it was in term and that was a pretty stressful six months. My first six months, they were told me like, you know, if you screw up your fire kind of thing. So that was, and they don't do that anymore, thankfully. But, and it's funny, you know, it was really hilarious to me.

My salary was when I started as the chef of Truffles. I was, I got my salary, I remember getting a contract for 32,000 dollars. It was my salary. Wow.

It was an improvement because in London, I made 13,000 pounds a year. Right. And do you find like specifically in your line of work, it takes a bit to get to the level where you're making a reasonable annual salary, like you really got to have worked in a lot of places and moved up the ladder quite drastically. Well, I think, and you have to show commitment to because, I mean, a lot of it would young folks don't learn.

And what I never learned when I was never shown and it never has mentioned is that they have to, people don't understand how important money is in the restaurant. And you can't, the only thing that's labeled will kill you, especially in the restaurant, like more so, you know, you can, you know, do some driving in a hotel, but not in the restaurant. It's like it's right there in front of your face, like how you're making a mess of this with your labor. So you really have to, you just have to be super careful with those things.

Yeah. Labor is, I can tell you from my angle as well. That's, that was the biggest eye opener to me when I moved to the ownership side was how much of an anchor labor cost can be. Like, and you, you kind of know that, but you don't really realize it until you're responsible and you're seeing a lot of other players are playing houses.

Well, exactly. And you can't, and that's why, like operators, I mean, people, I don't, I, it's, it's just funny now. And I don't know why, like I knew I went into that job with troubles going, well, that's atrocious pay, but I realized I have to prove myself first. I mean, I love troubles being paid almost double what that was.

So, uh, three years later. So, I mean, it gets up, but they want to, I think that's the thing we're struggling with is that, especially now it's even more so, like it's, it's, it's very hard, like I've been on both sides now. So I've been an operator and I've been, you know, being a chef and it's to look at both of that and to really, you know, put all your eggs in the bombask and say, look, I'm going to pay this guy 60, 70, 80 out of the gate. Don't know who he is or she is.

And, you know, that's, that's really, if that's an ersel, that is a huge thing you can't, that'll take, you know, so after you fire this person, that'll take you six months to recover that. So, I mean, and I don't know how it's just, I don't know how you get the message across, like when I was talking about balance earlier, that's what I mean, in the hospitality industry, certainly in Southern Ontario, it's probably everywhere. You know, we, it's our labor. All the time.

It's endless. Like, to be able to even get something going or anything like that, you know, you really need to, we need to get a new solution. So, I don't know, it's got to even take on both sides, which is hard now, because I think what we're going to go into now is it looks like we're going to have some very pickheaded people on both sides. Yeah, I agree.

You need me. Well, give me this. And then, I mean, you know, I hope it does because this is, at least now we've, it looks like we're going to have that conversation is going to come up. So, I hope anyone now looking for work in hospitality, you know, is willing to sit down and, you know, I think with almost every person, you need to have that conversation.

Find out what they want, find out what they need and really find out how you can give them, you know, give them more than a paycheck. Yeah. And I think for like, we all have to get a little bit creative too, because the margins are so slim, as you know, as well as anybody in the hospitality industry that like, if we don't, we almost have to get creative with how we're rewarding staff, because you can't just constantly throw money at the situation because then the place is going to go under. It's just the margins are so tight, right?

Well, that's the same thing. And that's a thing in a restaurant. And maybe most businesses, I've never, you know, I don't have a lot of experience in any other running them, but you really see is how that just, you know, you don't know with that a lot of whatever. You sort of do one thing, it seems fine.

And then you're like, I don't know if that's okay. And then it's sort of, you can take it out or even maybe fix it, but you still, even that minimal damage that was done prior without say, maybe prior to investigation, you know, six months later just pops up out of nowhere and then you always feel your pain down the road. Anything you give, whether it's discount on uniforms, paying for uniforms, all those things. Like companies can give all those things and they can give bonuses or whatever.

But the problem is that it's just, it's the same thing. It's just the carrot, right? You're just, you're not giving them anything because if you can't sustain it, you shouldn't start it. That's right.

Yeah. And it is hard to, especially when you're first starting out, it's hard to know what it is that you can't afford to give people, right? And it's like, you say, and you're like, I don't understand, right? You can't give it and then take it away later.

Like, it just doesn't really work out. Like people are just like, well, no, any of us would be, any of us would be like, well, fuck you. Yeah, what the fuck? Yeah.

It's like, you can't just, you know, I'm still doing the same job and you want to pay me less now because you're a bad bit. Yeah. And that's where we have to sort of, I'm not saying I have a solution, but I think really it's important that, you know, operators go into that, you have to give people more than a paycheck, you have to train them. That could be anything.

Train everyone how to always make one or two people show them how to run your business. Right? That doesn't mean they're going to run your business, but you've done kind of your part. You've given them something over and above a check that is giving them knowledge that they can move forward on their own.

That's all. That's why we need it. It's not that people always point to high turnover restaurants. You have to have it.

If you don't have high turnover, you know what? You're going to have to keep giving people raises. And you know what? We would love that.

I wish we had that kind of money. But you don't. And that's why, and it is a business that's built on sort of the trade. So you're constantly training people.

So if you're not training and moving people on, it's also important to move people out. Where it's this thing, you see more so. I never saw this much in Europe or Japan. But here, someone trains an employee and they expect them to stay forever.

And actually they get quite chilly if they don't. And that's why we have to. Anyone you train, anyone you hire, you have to, the second, you have to, I really employ, it's going to leave. And it's that kind of dynamic that people don't, if you get into the restaurant industry, you have to know it's constant training.

It's constant training and building. And it's longer and makes you better. It's hard. That's why people don't like it.

But you know, it's a trendary into business. Right? If you're constantly training and changing, like if you've got the same bartender at Bevel on constantly, you might just start the same party cocktails. Unless you pressure them or unless you offer more.

Unless you say, well, you know, offer more in the way of here. These are some cocktails. I enjoy. This is the direction I would like to go.

Or I want to use this or what can you do with this room? You know, things like that. If you're not, there's lots of ways to do it. But it's hard like to be actively like to be an active operator manager is hard because you know, right there out the back.

That's at least 12 hours a day usually 14, 16, right? Like so you've got to do your whole day or you either do all your business before your place opens. Then you do your day because you know, if you don't do the day with the staff, they don't feel supported. You know, it's just it's a commitment.

It's a commitment going into it. You know, the restaurant. Yeah, you know, love it. Get away for sure.

I know. I think that that's what a lot of people don't understand is like what they think when you move into the ownership side. They see like some owners who just come in and have drinks at their bar at the end of night or whatever. And it's like, yeah, that's all that's some of it.

But you don't realize how much work that person's already done to get to midnight where they're sitting down and having a drink with whoever's in there. You know what I mean? Like. And that's what they point out that you know, got to get to that heart if they're having a drink.

Well, you know, they got here at nine o'clock this morning. Exactly. I think they get a drink. That's what we fell down a bit on that.

I think people should be allowed to drink at the end of the night or anything like that. But I mean, we lost in that too in the hospitality industry that we just started feeding people too much alcohol. And it came and it might sound silly, but I do believe it came from the workplace because we didn't have any other way to reward them. But you know, it just over time, it's just like many things.

It's not matter if you can get out of control. And so like essentially just transition that. This was an issue for you at one point in your career as well where, yeah. So, and I don't know if you want to talk about this or not, we can edit it out.

It's no big deal. Okay. So there's a stretch where, and I can't forgive me. I won't remember which restaurant you're working at the time where you kind of had an alcohol issue and you sort of disappeared for a while.

Yeah. I mean, I did. I mean, from that's the thing. One thing I'd say is that I have, you know, that was like, and I have an alcohol problem.

You know, I was a blackout drunk from 18 years old. Right. Like I did. And over time, like through, you know, whether it's work or whatever things distracted me, I got away from the booze had kids got away from the booze.

And I don't know. It's just like one of those people. I just used it in an improper way. Like I basically there's other issues I have that instead of dealing with them, I drank.

So I could forget. And that's the way I cope. That was became my coping mechanism. That became a coping mechanism at a very early age.

Like I had my aha moment, like 16 or 15. So, you know, that has nothing to do with anything I want to say is that people like these addictions, people always point to things like, Oh, it's your job or it's this. No, you can't. Something like this cannot happen to you.

Like, Oh my God, you know, I was fine. And then started the job. We came out the whole. No, no, you're not going to, you know, that's not because it's like many things, you know, it's an alcoholism is a long process.

And it just it builds over time. And it's just, it's a matter of silly, but it actually is very apt. Someone said to me once, you know, all you did was put a bottle of relationship with it. And really about another relationship, like a physical relationship, but what you're talking about is just a relationship of whether it's a relationship with a parent or relationship with a friend having someone you can actually say, Hey, ma'am, I'm in trouble.

And that's the key of, you know, because you, that I move with those things. It's hard. I mean, when you're in it, you think it's the only thing that'll save you and then you just need something, I mean, I wouldn't wish what I did on anyone. Like that was just that was a horrible experience.

Like to be that frightened and that scared thinking you had to take off and run away. And obviously I was planning, I figured my answer was I just all ended, right? So, and that seemed like the, you know, the sensible thing to do. And even fact, like you can see how twisted alcoholism and things can get you is that I actually thought at one point in my life that if I, I could drink and drive if I had, if I just kept a knife in my pocket.

So if they call me, I just let my throat. Like that's how insidious this, you know, this disease can be. And you, I don't know, but I can't explain it. I got like whatever I went to my brink.

And then I got there and I was, you know, you have to, you know, all I can think about as my children. And so I think, you know, I, I wouldn't want anyone to feel like that. Because I can't, I just, you feel so lost and frightened. Every single feeling you can imagine, you know, on crack.

Like it's just like going, everything's just, I've never had so much fear in my life. And yeah, and I think it's just, you sort of need to hit that. And you know, I was fortunate that I did have some friends who came and got me and said, you know, you got to find out. Well, he asked me, he was one from me.

He just, my friend left in the door and he said, are you dumb? And I said, yeah, I'm dumb. Okay, so like you mentioned that you were kind of scared and you felt like you need to run away. Was it the pressure of the job that was getting to you or was it just like life caving in on you in general?

No, as a way I never did, I never did. I chose to avoid life, right? I never got with life on life terms. The only time I was happy was ever I would feel like I because once I'm out of work, I feel like there's like no control.

I have no control of anything. And I don't, I don't know enough about it. No, but that's what it felt like I would feel like literally the last check out at the end of the night. Like I'd be heavy energy, but I just remember this and I never really got deeply enough into it.

But I would, as the last check would go, I would become deeply like almost depressed, like immediately. And it would just, it was like this wave on me and that was just me, but it is your body and your life telling you you might be doing all the work, but the rest is garbage. Right. And I'm just wondering my wife, you know, I just because I'm thinking it's all about me and I have to do, you know, if you have my job, you don't understand, but you know, it's all this pity.

It's very self involved. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was talking about all.

And that's what, you know, that's the way I grew up. You know, I just kind of on my own for the most part. So, you know, it is what it is. It is what it is.

Like, if we all have a journey, find me a person that doesn't have some shit to deal with. Oh, 100%. Like, anyone who wants to go back and listen to the episode where Dan interviewed me on the show will hear my journey in that situation as well. So I've been through a lot of this as well.

So I totally get where you're coming from. Like, it's something that's a little bit outside of you. You don't, it almost feels like it's happening to you as opposed to being a conscious decision after a while. And then you're just doing it.

Well, that's it. Yeah. That's right. Because it all creeps up, right?

It's bad behaviors. And your body is going to, like, if you choose, even if you're mind, you can flip your mind off all your work. But it's going to, it's going to catch up to you. Like, anything because you just, I mean, if I've learned anything, there's certain ways, it seems to me that, well, put it this way.

If I behave a certain way, everything's fine. If I behave another way over time, it gets worse and worse and things get worse and they compound. And if I don't, and it's just really, the only way I can put it is that it's just dealing with life on life's terms. Instead of saying, every time something happens, you know, instead of internalizing it and feeling that you're the only one on earth that this is happening to you, or you're the only one on earth who could, you know, is married to such a person or you're only a person on earth that has a job like this or no, or even better.

It's never a job. It's always your boss, right? Yeah. It's always, it's just silly, right?

Like, it's just the thing, you know what, life's hard, but it's worth it. So, right? It is. Yeah.

That's good. And it's great that, like, to see you healthy and happy and like back in the position you're in. So let's get back to talking a little bit about that. I sort of want to, something I'm interested in knowing is like, with all this sort of training you've gotten from all over the world, really, how do you think all of this forms like sort of your culinary style today and how would you describe your culinary style?

If you can. Well, and you know what someone said, just tell them you make good food. Yeah. I was one of my sons said that.

And it's kind of like that. I mean, the culinary style, what we would do is, I mean typically, you use what's around you use and use what you're like Kitchener, right? So we don't want to Kitchener, you know, I wanted to have it reflect Kitchener and that's why we called it the Berlin, you know, because that was, you know, the original name of Kitchener until I think 1970. And just and reflect the, and that's what you just want to use.

I want to create it because it was around it, that makes sense. I mean, we found that in base. I mean, it's kind of beat to death now, but in and out with the way we look at our food, like, whether it's, you could start with an onion or could start with a chicken, but you sort of, I mean, one of the best things was someone showing me, and that's why I like talking to farmers and producers, because the way they approach things and see things is very different. Like they would, you know, I never just, when I started, there was just a gentleman working with Delph, it was Delph Blue Farms, and they had, you know, veal growing here, and then there was some, a couple of neighbors, like even a couple miles down the road or whatever, whatever.

You know, had for doing asparagus, but what in his idea was that all this food was tied because all these, you know, these varigas and the, you know, the veal and anything you're forging on the way or anything like that, these are all coming out of the same water system, like they're all sharing a system. And sort of that's the way we kind of put dishes together. We try and tie things together as opposed to just grabbing. I mean, I always did that before, you know, would use ingredients from all over the world, I mean, or Japan or anything like that.

So it's really using kind of what I've learned and just applying it to wherever I happen to be at that time. And then, like, I do think restaurants have personalities, hotels have personalities, you use those things. And it's just almost like, you know, you sort of have to immerse yourself in a bit, like, you know, a secret of guests. What is it?

What are you seeing out the window? And just, you know, using those, I guess, all the sensory perceptions on sort of help guide where you want to go with the food. And once we started doing that, we noticed the first time we did it was in Langen. I did it with Dave Sider, who is now chef in Niagara.

We had just such a great time and you could see it was unreal. Like within like an hour, like it was a real buzz in the dining room. It's a first place, I actually ate sort of since the place was in, was in Rayce, California, and that I've never, like when you have it and you're in it, you almost can't explain it. Like, it's just the food feels perfect.

And it feels as it should be. Like there's no real, you know, you know, like, there's no, like, couldn't use this for a bit of that. But it's, it's actually creating, putting together sort of a flavor matrix that people really otherwise don't, don't have because they kind of were just grabbing, you know, whatever, the, unless they're being specific, most people are just picking up whatever they got, whether it's onions and the onions could be from Belton's, whether it's well murder, the grocery store, or even anything like that. For most people, you know, on a daily basis, you're not tying your food together.

So, I mean, that's another thing we never want to do in our restaurants is, you know, when we look at everything, we say, you know, that's the, it's someone who's going to sit there and eat that and feel like there's value for price pay. That we want to do that with everything, even the drinks, the wine, everything. Mine is a really good example of that because wine you see in that, you know, 12, this wine is great. It's very simple because you can say this wine is great at $12.

It's not doing anywhere for a team. Right. That's what I see that that's what I like and try to use those examples with people out because when I learned wine, that was really, that was really something that was really stuck with me and that because it's value. And we don't, and we struggle with that too.

And I think that's another issue that a lot of restaurants have now too. And I mean, when I say other restaurants have, I mean, I'm a part of that problem. I'm not trying to say that, you know, we're doing anything different, but I think that we have to concern ourselves with our pricing and say even like specials are saying, you're going to have the lowest hamburger around. King Street, Bar-Loo or something like that.

But you, how are you going to recruit those costs? Because typically what happens is, you know, we were always trained, they come in and they buy the Foggroft for $12 and then they buy all these other things. But people do that anymore. If you have a special, you might see it too.

If you have something special, they come in and they have a special share it and then they're out. And that's just, but that's the way it is now. And I think so trying to do it in that way, you're just, you're, I mean, maybe it is maybe our customers have caught on to our ways or whatever, but I think we just need really like proper pricing across the door now for everyone. I think we have to track and I know it's going to clarify so many people because, you know, when I go back now, I haven't started looking at pricing yet, but I don't know what prices are going to be, but I'm a little bit.

Well, yeah, it's good. I mean, there's no choice really. Like, eventually everything gets transferred on the guest, otherwise you can't stay open. And that's an unfortunate situation, but that is what it is.

Like, there's no other, like we all need to somehow make enough money to keep the doors open. So, the venue. And I think that's a really good point. Like, to our customers, your guests, you know, I think that's a point too, is that you can, if it doesn't mean anything foreign, but if you don't, even if guests, if we don't operate properly, there's no restaurants.

But if guests, you know, keep, if we can offer what we should be offering a value for price pay, we shouldn't have trouble. If we under deliver and try and cheat on a guest, of course, we're going to get in trouble. But, you know, if the guests also has to realize that if they don't support their local restaurant, they won't have one. So, I mean, and you can see that more and more.

Before the pandemic, they were predicting 1% of Canadians will be working from home. What does that look like now? And they were predicting that restaurants and like cocktail bars like yours will become, we're starting to become more important because they're paying, they're paying a more significant role in socializing in our country. So, so now even more so, I think they're going to like now they're even more important.

I think we're all wondering what role we really need to play. Yeah, it's going to be interesting when we go back. The other thing I want to talk to you about before we let you go is one thing that you are also very famous for, at least within our community is staff retention. You almost have like a cult like following that comes with you from place of place.

Even a lot of people going up to Fogo Island with you, which is quite an undertaking for someone. What is it that you think, what are you doing? You want to give me a secret? How do you maintain such staff loyalty?

How important is that to you? Maybe talk a little bit about that. I think I'm unfortunate, like with the, you know, with the, I mean, the Berlin to my English, but also, I mean, especially like, Fogo and the Loramil and I think the main thing is you have to give them one of the paycheck. Like I was saying, you have to know, trainees and parents, they have to learn.

They have to be learning constantly. You have to give them, you can't, if you have, you know, 40 cooks and you just put in a menu and it never changes. Well, don't wonder why people are leaving. They want to learn and everyone also to be, you know, you have to be, you have to almost always be sort of on the side or you have to be in the middle.

You almost have to have this age, charm and talent is you have to consider both sides. And, and, you have to explain to them, you can't just come in and you all do that. You're explaining them. These are the troubles I have if you want to download them, right?

Like, show them. And that's a part of their knowledge as well. And, you know, every time I've done that, it's worth it. They said, look, okay, how about we talk about this again in three months or six months?

And I said that would be great. And also putting people, finding out, you know, I'm not just, when I went to, you know, when everyone was training, you know, I'd go into work one day, you know, and in Japan was a good, like, so I'm peeling millions, they're forgotten to tell them. And when they are coming to the chef, just like, no, no, no, you're on, you're in that section today. You know what I mean?

So people don't like that anymore. You can't manage just as a group, you have to manage as individuals. And I mean, at the end of the day, if you put people in a job that they want to be in, they're going to do it better. And, you know, and you give them the training they want as opposed to what you want to train them forward as it's working for you.

That's like, I found out over time, that's just became like, putting a square peg into a round hole. If you want to keep people, give them a reason to stay. That's a basically, and I mean, I'm not like I invented it. You know, a gentleman who works with a, he works with Ralphini, I was, the name's Michael Braff.

He's the one that really pointed out to me. He was the restaurant chef at the first season in Vancouver and going through this matrix with him and talking about him. You have to give them more. I have to give them more to paycheck.

A lot of the stuff I regurgitate mostly is from people I work with. Sure, that's how we all learn to do it, right? You know, you learn from somebody else and then you repeat in the expand. Yeah, you know, I mean, that was one of the most important things, you know, you have to just give them, like once they're quite often you see, like, you're so shagged up in there in their operations and it's because, like, and I often think, like, if you're running in the money traveler, things like that or things like that or things getting confusing, you know, people should take that time.

Think of your business, give your, give your staff a break or give them, I don't know, you know, do landscaping. I don't know. I have no idea. But the thing is, you're better off taking that time.

Assess your business again. What are you doing? Or even as the owner step away for a few days and then you can let your self clear go through your employees. Allow yourself to know your employees.

Don't tell you that's the way your basically your food is going to come out. You're going to, it's always very reflective. I think in the quality of the food, it's really has a lot to do with the quality of the way people are being treated. Right.

If you care about the food and you care about staff and you care about people and you have values and you've got more accomplice and you know, that's all all translate. That's, that's a good tip for anyone listening right now who's trying to get a management of the business. Okay. So the one thing I'd like to ask you about before we let you go and thanks for giving us all the time today is you've done so many different jobs sort of within your small field of industry there, like from being literally on the line doing the cooking to running the place to menu creation to like even getting the consulting work.

What's what's sort of your favorite role if you have one? Oh, I think if I could just make money writing menus. Oh, yeah. I could read cookbooks like actually I do.

I just read them all day. Yeah. I don't know. Like I just love.

I mean, you just see the imagination. It's really, it's amazing. I could do it. It's really, it's amazing.

I could be if I could get paid for just researching writing menus. Oh, I'd love that. Great. I work from home.

Oh, yeah. Perfect. Well, you can check out some of the menus that Johnson's created around town at correct me if I get any of this wrong or forgotten any, but we got a Laura Mill. We have S and V up town.

Am I forgetting anyone? That's it. Well, we did. We did.

We did help open. We started with the Good Food Company in wealth with the whole house. Okay. We helped.

We helped launch that and we're still is radically working with them now. But the person at the head of that now is a K Miller at the whole house. So they're all doing amazing. They're amazing.

They're there and putting out food like for their community. They grow it and they put out great nutrition meals for their super affordable for everyone in the community. Awesome. Well, you can check out any of these menus that any of these places that Jonathan has done.

Check them out before he goes into working from home full time in solitary confinement. We can't have all of you again. Thanks so much. We really appreciate you coming on and doing the show.

Take care guys. Thank you very much. Thank you.