Episode 12 - "POGIL", what is it, and what to expect as a student with Dr. Stacy Brown

In this episode, we talk with Dr. Stacy Brown, Professor of Pharmaceutical Sciences at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy about the Process Oriented Guided Inquiry or "POGIL" teaching strategy.  In addition to being a POGIL expert, Dr. Brown is an award-winning educator and researcher.  She teaches Medical Biochemistry and Medicinal Chemistry and serves as the Interim Chair of the Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences at Gatton.   Transcript: Dan VanZant Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode will cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. We are your hosts, Dan VanZant. Michele Williams And I'm Doctor Michele Williams, director of academic success. In this episode, we'll be talking with Doctor Stacy Brown, professor of pharmaceutical sciences at Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. Doctor Brown teaches medical biochemistry and medicinal chemistry and serves as the interim chair of pharmaceutical sciences. She's also an award‑winning educator and researcher. Welcome to White Coat Radio, Doctor Brown. Michele Williams Thank you very much. So we all know you as the coordinator for the chemistry courses in the P1 year, but you are also our resident expert on teaching with an instructional model known as POGIL. Can you tell us a little bit about what POGIL is and why you use it? Stacey Brown Okay. So POGIL—the acronym stands for Process Oriented Guided Inquiry Learning. And so this is a student‑centered, group learning teaching strategy. It was developed back in the 1990s by some chemists at a smaller university, intended to help students learn chemistry. So that's the framework where it originated. But now it’s expanded to all different— all kinds of different fields. And in a POGIL classroom, the students are working in small teams, and the instructor is the facilitator. So there's not a lot of lecturing, not a lot of slides and things like that. What they're working on are very specifically designed exercises that take them through the learning cycle. And so you give them data of some sort—a figure. I use chemical structures all the time. Sometimes there's a table, and you use guided questions to help them look at that model or that information. So we would call this just the exploration phase. They’re looking at the model. They're answering questions. And sometimes the questions look super easy. But the whole point is to make them look at it and say, what kind of information can I get out of this? I mean, even as simple as—if it’s a graph—what are the axes? You know, what is this graph of? So they explore the model and then eventually they go to a phase called concept invention, where they try to see some trends in the information and then come up with some sort of hypothesis. So the idea is that you've followed kind of the scientific method with this. So they come up with a hypothesis to explain the model, maybe generalize what they're seeing. This is the concept that we're trying to get at. And then finally they're going to apply that concept. So now we have our idea, and I'm going to throw some new information at you in an application question, and you're going to see how the concept works. So that’s what the classroom looks like. The process part is a little bit harder to quantify and to assess, but there are tools for that. And those processes are very intentional. They include oral and written communication, teamwork, time management, problem solving, critical thinking, and assessment work—both self‑assessment and metacognition. And so there are rubrics from the POGIL project, which maintains all of the resources for this strategy, to assess each of these things. If you have an activity that's really focused on critical thinking, there's a rubric to go along with that so you can see how well your students are doing. But as far as why I use this—I started teaching in a chemistry department at another university. It was a military college, and that will be important later. But when I first started teaching, I just did exactly what I had seen as a student. And I was a good student and did fine. So whatever that was, I thought, well, this must be the perfect way. But my students were really doing poorly, and they were the lowest cohort of Gen Chem students in the department among six or seven instructors. Mine were like a full standard deviation below everybody else. And so I thought, okay, maybe I should quit my job because I'm awful at this. And my chair talked me out of it and said, no—you’re not awful. You just don’t know how to do it yet. And so she sent me to some training at an American Chemical Society meeting. And I learned about POGIL there. And I just signed up for something random. I didn’t—I was like, okay, well, you sent me. Let me do something while I'm here. And it was sort of a transformative moment because I said, oh my gosh—first of all, sorry, but all the teachers I had before were not doing a good job. Because I stood at the chalkboard, you know, and wrote things. Or stood at an overhead projector and wrote things. And so I came back to my job and I said, okay, I'm going to do this totally different. It's going to be awesome. And it—it was. Wow. It was really good. But I had a lot of pushback from the students, like, whoa, what are you doing? And even from some of the other faculty because they thought I had gone off the deep end with my ideas. But it was working really well for my students. They kind of turned their ship around. And then when I came here, I said, I'm going to bring this strategy with me because it worked really well. And I was the only person—the first person—to ever teach a class. So there was no precedent. I could do whatever I wanted, and it was all mine. So slowly I developed activities to go with medicinal chemistry. And then now I'm working on biochemistry. Michele Williams So have you gotten any pushback from students here—either when you first started using it or at the beginning of a new semester? Do students get a little freaked out about this model? Or are you experienced enough with it now that you sort of take care of that before it starts? Stacey Brown Initially in a few—it would—the pushback would only come in the form of evaluations at the end of the semester. Like, “I'm not paying all this money to teach myself.” Like—okay, well, that’s fine. That’s not what happened, but that’s okay. And so now I just sort of preface everything in the first class. I just tell them, like, look, I want everybody to succeed. I don't have a preconceived notion of, “We're going to give out this many A’s and this many B’s.” I want you all to know this stuff. And this is the way that I've learned—and research supports it. And if you like reading research papers, I can provide those. That helps you. And then, you know, I often have individual groups in each classroom that don’t like to sort of coalesce together and work together. And I just try to encourage them a little bit more—like learning is a community thing. And it's so much easier if you have that community to support you. So let this be your little community while you're in here. And maybe you don't study with these people later. That's okay. But while you're working through this stuff— So I don't get a lot of pushback anymore. But initially I did, and I really did when I first started. But I also think I startled them. Michele Williams By—like, that's a big change. Stacey Brown Yeah, it was a huge change. Yeah. Dan VanZant So it seems like you make chemistry less daunting. And you have a very high reputation amongst your students. So how do you achieve that? How do you do that? Stacey Brown Yeah. Well, I don't know that I help them love it, but my goal is to build their confidence with it. Because—I took medicinal chemistry with the pharmacy students at the University of Georgia. So I was a PhD student, but in that program PhD students and pharmacy students are on the same track for the first year, and then they diverge. In my med chem class, all we did was memorize structures. That is—we drew them and we identified them by the way they looked. And that is all we ever did. And I thought—that is a waste of time. And we're not going to do that in my med chem class. So I’ve thought a lot over the years about what information you can get from a chemical structure that would help you understand that drug. Because they're going to see new drugs in their career. And I want them to be able to use all the information about it—not just the clinical trials, not just maybe the kinetics and the package insert—but even look at the structure and say, oh gosh, I understand why we have to give this IV. Or I understand why you only get this once every six months. Or whatever it is—you can find those data in the structures. So that's what I set out to build their confidence in. You're not going to memorize stuff for the sake of memorizing it. It's all about learning a handful of tools and then just applying them to new situations. So building their confidence that they can use information in the chemical structures—and then keeping their morale high. And this is what I learned teaching in a military college—that if their morale is low, and they're scared and nervous about the content, and they're nervous about their ability to do it—that is a huge roadblock to success. So despite how high‑achieving they might be—if their morale is low about that ability—they won’t be as successful. So learning the value of morale is another thing that’s applicable to any class. But it really helps with the chemistry stuff because many students do come in with a lot of trepidation about it. Michele Williams You know, you're saying that really makes a lot of sense to me in the context of talking to students individually. Because they talk about their past struggles with chemistry and so forth. But when they get into your class—after they've been in there for a little while—I don't really hear that from them anymore. And it can be incredibly discouraging if you don't do well on an exam—particularly for pharmacy students. They come to pharmacy school having been good students, and they are not accustomed to getting failing grades or non‑passing grades. And for any of us, it puts a big dent in your confidence. So it makes a lot of sense to hear you say that you work on their morale and confidence, because that does seem to be part of the transformation they make when they get into your class. They seem less discouraged, which I think is huge. The motivation—if you don't, first of all, have a need to know—which it sounds like in your description of understanding the structures versus memorizing them—built into that is a need to know. Why do pharmacists need to know chemical structures? And that's why. But also the idea of: you can do this, you should be confident in your ability to do it. And just listening to you talk to students actually makes me a little jealous because I'm thinking—I wish Dr. Brown had taught me chemistry. I would have felt a lot more confident in my abilities. But when you talk to students—that’s why I encourage them to come see you—because that can be transformational. Just to have that conversation with the expert and understand, “Oh—I can do this. I think I can do this.” So yeah, that makes so much sense. Now you're in that room with them the whole time. Dan VanZant Yeah, I can relate to that too. With my chemistry class—or several classes—you have a topic that's known to be difficult, and then you mix that with a professor that doesn't seem to care about your morale or give you the “can‑do” attitude. And it really makes a difference in being able to learn the material. And then also the application piece is huge. Every time I've had a professor who has gone the extra mile and shown how it fits into this broader picture—it really is helpful and meaningful. Stacey Brown And I can't do much of the application stuff in the first year just because I don't have the clinical background yet. But then, through the other courses—where we teach along with the therapy and pharmacology—I’m always in touch with the clinical instructors to help me identify some good application things. For example, in infectious disease, they might talk about which antibiotics you're going to give orally and which are IV only. And I can do that in the med chem portion of it. So we can learn to look at the structures and decode that. Then they're not just memorizing the list—they say, “Oh, okay, I remember that chemical feature that made this one restricted to IV only versus oral.” So I'm always trying to weave those real applications in. Because I'm not a pharmacist. But I happen to know a few. And they help me figure out how to get the chemistry in there. Michele Williams Okay. Great. Dan VanZant Also—thinking about the structures. When I was taking some of these classes—nobody had an iPhone in their pocket. And as I recall, we did have the little model kits that we'd have to put together and look at structures that way. We were just getting into having computers where we could kind of look at some of those—if you were fortunate enough to have one in your dorm. But now that we have all this technology—have you found any apps or do you use any apps in class that help students visualize structures? Stacey Brown I personally don't use a lot of that kind of thing. I provide all of those resources—figures and things like that—but I don't have any apps that necessarily help them. What you're talking about is more like in organic chemistry—you would look at the three‑dimensional space that a molecule fills. And I guess you can still do that—and you could probably find those images pretty easily now, where before you would have had to physically build them. But they probably are more aware, honestly, of different apps than I am. I just self‑generate what they experience. Michele Williams So you mentioned that you teach further into the curriculum. The students will see you again in various classes. And you mentioned infectious diseases. What other classes do you teach in, as well as those first‑year classes? Stacey Brown So I'm in every semester now. Infectious diseases and pulmonary for the P2s in the fall. And then for the P3s in the fall—the endocrine and men’s and women’s health course, neuro psych, and GI—which is actually P2 now. I'm a little discombobulated about where they fit. Then for the spring P2s—I have cardiovascular. And for the P3s in the spring—I see them in the oncology course and in critical care. And if I'm missing one, I apologize. Michele Williams Those sounds like a lot. Stacey Brown But it's really fun to see that progression through the curriculum. Because especially starting in med chem with P1s—we’re working on very fundamental things: functional groups, what's an acid and a base. And then I see them in spring P3 and I'm not—and I give almost zero instruction at that point. There's no preface. They just come in and start working. And they’re sitting there debating in that critical care activity I have—it’s a toxicology one. They’re debating, like: “Okay, which antidote is better for this type of cyanide poisoning?” Or “Is Narcan the best choice, or is there something else?” It’s just fun to hear them having these conversations. And it's all predicated on their understanding of the chemistry. But I didn't tell them anything about it. They're just coming up with it because they have the background. So it's really awesome to watch them grow. And I always compliment them. I'm like, “You're so smart. Look at you having all these smart conversations. And two years ago you were trying to figure out what's a carboxylic acid.” Michele Williams That's the astonishing thing about pharmacy school—the development of a person’s expertise over such a short period of time. They just transform into pharmacists. It's pretty cool. Stacey Brown Yeah. And teaching every semester—I get to witness that happening. It’s awesome. I love it. Michele Williams So if we think about the P1s for a minute—if you were giving advice to a P1 about what they need to be successful in medical biochemistry or medicinal chemistry, what bits of advice would you have? Stacey Brown Well, I do—on the syllabus—for each class—I have pre‑work. And it's usually just…the idea is that you preview the content. You don't turn anything in. I just want you to look at it and start to generate a little bit of action in your brain about it. So: preview the content a few minutes before class. Just look at it. And then when you come to class—in the P1 courses—I do preface the activities with some lecture. So I'm like, “Okay, here's the terms we're going to use. Here's some framework for you to build on.” And then I—wean them off of that over time. But because they need some foundation, I give them some content. Then for the group activities—my advice is to come to participate. You have the time set aside. You’re paying for that time. It is for learning. So use it. Use your classmates. Use me. Don’t squander it by shopping on Amazon or whatever distraction. Use the time because you will learn during that time—and it will be easier than trying to learn later in your apartment on your own. Michele Williams Amen. Stacey Brown I always liken it to going to the gym. You've paid a personal trainer. You go to the gym. And you're just standing off to the side watching, not doing anything. What a waste. And we talk even on the first day of biochemistry about skill‑building: Who plays a sport? Who plays an instrument? Who does technical crafts? And getting them to think about how they learned those things: by doing them. Not by reading about them. Same applies here. You can’t just read the book and get the same level of understanding that you would get if you actually do the work. Michele Williams Yeah. That makes so much sense. And I concur with you. Students underestimate sometimes the value in previewing the work before class. They are saving so much time and getting so much more out of class by priming their brain. Trying to learn the same amount later at home isn’t the same—and it won’t stick as well. Stacey Brown Yeah. It just feels better to know what’s going on. It feels terrible to walk into a room where everyone else seems to know what’s happening and you don’t. You can prevent that feeling. Michele Williams It’s like one of those bad dreams where you show up not wearing shoes or something. Stacey Brown Right. And you're the only one. You’re not ready. Dan VanZant Is this exam day one? Michele Williams Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation, and we really appreciate your time today. Thanks so much for joining us. Stacey Brown All right. Thank you.