Episode 160 - MIPCOM 2023 special

Tubular Labs, powered by Sharp-Eats, is a leader in global social video intelligence and measurement, providing a unified view of the passions and behaviours of audiences across YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitch and more. With the largest social video database covering more than 15 billion videos and 45 million creators, Tubular helps household-name brands, leading agencies and the largest media properties grow their business and lead on social by anticipating trending content new creators and what's next in culture. For more info, visit tubularlabs.com It's time for MIPCOM again and my guests on this week's show from the world's biggest content market, are President of Cartoon Channel, Paul Robinson, Benton Bailey of World of Wonder, producer of RuPaul's Drag Race, Virginia Musilaire from the WIT, Brandon Ralph from Sinterlawn Social Streamer, The Nile and now Global's Eric LePoint Andy Fry from MIPCOM News and MIPCOM Director, Lucy Smith. It's coming right up on this week's MIPCOM 2023 special show.

So I'm here at MIP Junior and I bumped into Paul Robinson, President of Cartoon Channel, how you doing? Good, nice to see you. Fantastic to see you. You're a veteran of the kids industry.

I'd love to hear about how the kids industry is performing. It's a very difficult time for the TV industry overall right now, but one of the particular challenges that kids market is facing. I think it's quite difficult because there's obviously lack of confidence in the business. Generally buying is down, people are deferring decisions.

Prices are generally going downwards or upwards, but the demand for kids doesn't really change. I mean kids see something that every platform wants, kids are always going to be part of our lives, kids are always going to want great content. And kids are also very good for anti-chirm. You think about pay platforms, the big big thing is they get customers in, they pay to get a customer, and then they lose a customer.

So if you can hang on to that customer, it's a lot cheaper than paying to get a new customer. So kids is really good because no one wants to dispute in their household. No one wants to say, you can't have your favourite show anymore. I'll keep the kids' subscription then.

So kids is a really important challenge. But not with that challenge. I mean there's been a lot of discussion in the UK about more subsidy from government, about more support. And that's the case in many markets.

I think currently it's quite tough. It's also moved towards more known brands. Definitely people are buying shows they know brands are trusted because, you know, when you navigate down the digital world, you look at your EPG or you look at your rail and you think, oh I know that brand and I go to that. So quite hard for new content to break through at the moment I think.

But look, it goes in cycles. It's currently quite tough. I'm very optimistic. There's always going to be a need for kids' content.

So I don't think the long term future is bleak at all. I think it's very rosy. So tell me about Cartoon Channel then. I mean, what are you doing?

You buying or selling? So we at Cartoon Studios, known as Cartoon Channel, we're a New York Stock Exchange Quoted company. We create a lot of content. We're an original content creator.

Our CEO Andy Haywood, some man who invented Inspector Gadget. And he's never looked back from that. And we produce our own original animated series every year. That gives us rights worldwide.

It also gives us a unique selling point. This is content no one else has. And that makes us stand out from the other big capacitors. You've got to have something unique to offer.

Otherwise, why would they deal with you? So the originals are a really important part of us, Rhapsody. We also do a live action originals and recently had a lot of success with gaming. Particularly show called Roblox Rumble, which is really simple.

If you look at the data, perhaps two thirds of kids in every country in the world, between about five and 12, play Roblox. Kids are having Roblox birthday parties now. So the idea is a tournament. It's a knockout tournament.

The kids play Roblox games compete against each other. And they try and climb up the leaderboard. And then there's an alternate winner. And they win game consoles and prizes.

And they play on Zoom. But they play Roblox on Zoom. And it's a really popular format because kids learn cheats, how to be better at Roblox. They see other kids playing, pick up the tips and things.

And it's also something you can format. So we've done a just an animation version with a whole load of Malaysian kids. And that's doing really well on Astro in Malaysia. So the gaming content, Minecraft and Tanki and other such brands doing very well for us at the moment.

So I want to talk about linear TV and predicting the death of it. And there's an enormous amount of disruption happening in the market right now. How do you see linear TV in the future? I think pay TV is difficult.

I mean, in America now, about 50% of you are only used to linear. And that's going to decline further. In some markets in the world, 85, 90% is still linear. You take Africa, example, VOD on demand, not really there.

It's all about linear. And it will be like that for 10 more years. So it varies from market to market. But I also say that here at MIT, one of the hottest topics is fast.

And fast is another linear type channel for advertising supported linear TV. So linear is not dead because everyone has a time when they don't want to make a decision. But sometimes you look at your Netflix menu, your Disney Plus menu, and there's loads of great stuff on there. But in fact, there's so much choice.

Sometimes you can't make a decision. And linear is an easy way. You turn it on, and there it is. So the rise of fast is really just more linear.

So I think you'll find a balance. Linear is not going away. I mean, digital is definitely increasing. Non-linear is increasing.

I think the two are going to co-exist, and they'll find equilibrium at some point. So one of the key topics and trends at the moment that everyone's talking about on the corset is AI, artificial intelligence. I would imagine artificial intelligence is set to have a huge impact on animation. How do you see that?

Yeah, I think it is. I think for good. I mean, I see AI as a tool. I don't see it replacing human creativity.

All I can do is come up with ideas based on other ideas. It can't come up with something amazing, fresh you never seen before. And that's always going to be required. Great creatives, great writers, they're not going to go away.

But some of the more mundane things, like for example, rendering, rendering and animation, you can ask AI to do it. And then human being will say, well, I quite like that. But can you change that? Or can you change that?

That could be automated. Original idea generation, again, can be automated. So AI can be great there. AI can be great in dubbing.

Already, if you're a factual documentary producer, or you're doing natural history shows, many of those voiceovers now are AI voices. And sounding pretty good. Over time, lip-sync dubbing is going to also be done by AI. And that would be a major boon and will bring content to countries, particularly smaller countries, where dubbing is too expensive, will bring localisation to those countries.

That would be a benefit. So I think AI has to be seen as a tool at the moment, people in America are saying, oh, you know, jobs are going to go. I think jobs are going to change. But they always do.

The trick is, if you've got something to offer that's creative, and only a human being can do, you're completely safe. But the mundane stuff, hey, you've got a dishwasher, you've got digital stuff in your car. This is progress. It's going to happen.

Paul Robinson, Cartoon Channel, thank you so much for joining me. Great pleasure. Thank you, Justin. It's day two here at MIPCOM, and I'm here with Fenton Bailey from World of Wonder, RuPaul's Drag Race Producer.

How are you doing? Good. Thank you. How are you?

Yeah, I'm really good. I'm enjoying it. It's a little bit overcast now. But rain.

Yeah, but that's OK. It's not dampening anyone's spirits. Fenton, tell us about, first of all, RuPaul Drag Race. What an incredible TV juggernaut.

Tell us about the history of how it developed and how you developed it. Drag Race has been on air now. 13, 14 years, 2009, it launched on a tiny channel in the States called Logo. And then after a few years, we moved to VH1, and then this past season we've been on MTV.

So it's been an organic growth, and we're just sort of thrilled and excited still to be on the air. We're like 15 seasons in. But internationally, it's been a become a big focus because the show has found homes in 17 countries or 17 original versions. And it's become a life mission, really, because I think the show is really entertaining and really fun.

But the talent of the Queen's shows you, it's very much a message of inclusiveness and live and that live and joyful creativity. So kind of something that we need to hear in this sort of crazy, polarizing times you seem to be living in. Yeah, it's a show for the times, really, isn't it? I think so.

I mean, I know that there's sort of in the States, there's a conservative sort of loony rights, conservative movement, misidentifying drag and what it's all about and trans people. But I think that's a precise reason why the show is important because the show celebrates individuality and everybody being their own unique person. And really, we've all got to live on this planet together and learn to get along with each other. And I think that Drag Race, although not a political show, by say, that message does run counter to what some people are trying to instill in us.

So it's become a bit of a cause for us, I think. There are lots of spin-off shows as well on the back of RuPaul's Drag Race. Yeah, RuPaul's Drag Race. RuPaul is the first of 600 queens who have been on the show and over the years untucked, UK versus the world, all stars, celebrity Drag Race.

So there's a whole bunch of different formats and spin-offs. And then we launched Wabas and Splats, our own subscription streaming network. And in addition to being able to watch all the different versions of Drag Race on that, you can also see originals with Candy Muse and Pangina and Jimbo and Chixie and Katja. Because when we were making Drag Race, the artistry of the queens on the show is phenomenal and we were so excited to make other shows with people from the show.

And there just wasn't really the opportunity on TV to create those shows. So we're like, why do we launch a network? You know, why not do it an easy way to start a new network? And so if I think we've done some like 34 originals, that network is growing leaps and bounds.

And you're here at MIPCOM. Well, tell us what you're here at MIPCOM to achieve. I mean, obviously you're here to talk about the brand, but you're also here to acquire content for your service, aren't you? It's great to come to MIPCOM because you can also see what is going on, you know, whatever sort of things that are trending and how are things evolving?

Because I think the one thing about TV, unscripted television in particular is that it is a rapidly changing business. And so it's great to be able to come here and see what's hot and what's not. So we come here to see what other shows are out there, as well as continue talking with our partners with the existing versions of Drag Race. We just announced that Drag Race Thailand after something of a hiatus.

We'll be back for third season, Drag Race Philippines, a third season, and Drag Race France for a third season. So that's very exciting. And we're also looking to launch new versions of Drag Race because there are some countries, I guess, all of them, where they're like, well, our audience might not be ready for this. And it's part of an organic, it doesn't happen overnight.

We're OK with that. But it's great to have these relationships and check in and see people face to face to be able to continue the conversation. Thanks to MIPCOM and the sort of market. It's just great to be able to have the opportunity to keep the conversation going.

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And you're based in Los Angeles, but you're a Brit, aren't you? Originally from the UK? Yeah, I'm a Brit. Yes, and I live in LA.

Yeah. So tell us about a world of wonder then, the business, how many people are there? Because it sounds like quite an extraordinary setup you've got with your own network and all the enormous amount of production. Give us a sense of scale of world of wonder.

Well, you know, Renee and I, who's my partner at World of Wonder, we met at film school and we were always into TV. And film school, they were like, you don't want to do that. But we were like, MTV is launching. You know, it just felt like media was changing.

And we gravitated to TV, and in particular, we gravitated to public access TV, which for me as a Brit was this extraordinary thing that if you wanted to make a TV show, you could just make it and take it to the cable channel and then have to show it. Now in a world of TikTok and Facebook and Instagram and YouTube, now that's not so spectacular. But at the time it was extraordinary and you would see shows that were unlike anything else. And that was the very first series Randy and I made, it's called Manhattan Cable, and all these crazy shows of public access.

And since then it's kind of growing because, I suppose, one of them is growing because the media has grown and now we're in this creative culture where everybody can be heard and make their own shows and that sort of do it yourself. Almost punk aesthetic is very central to what we've always done. And I think very central to drag as well and really informs the company and has been all about its growth. So over the years we've been very lucky, we've made a lot of documentaries.

That's kind of our first love. We made a documentary with the Isaac Tammy Faye, which after about 25 years got made into the Jessica Chastain movie of the same title. And we've seen literally this growth of unscripted it, just wasn't really a thing when we were starting. And I guess Randy and I just had a feeling, I think first and foremost we were just excited and interested in it.

We didn't know that it would grow into this enormous industry at Spakam. And we've just been fortunate enough to sort of be along for some of that ride. So tell us about your takeaways from MIPCOM. What have you learned here this week that you're going to take back and how is that going to affect your business going forward?

Well, you know, people seem to be in a bit of a little uncertain, I was going to say panic, that might be overstating it. But, you know, between the situation in Europe, the war in Ukraine, the great streaming hangover, the big streamers who spent billions, and now the world is that streaming doesn't work. This is not true, they just overspent. And so there's this retrenchment that seems to be happening at the same time as the strikes have happened.

People seem very uncertain. I think the other thing that's happening is that the way people watch and interact with media is changing. So in the old sense of just, I'm just going to watch something and it's going to be great and then I'm done. I think that's on the decline.

And what's on the rise is what one of a bit about is kind of super engagement. I think of Barbie, the Barbie movie, everyone who went to that movie, they weren't just going to see a movie. Everybody was wearing pink. Everybody was, they were in drag actually, or Taylor Swift, her movie, concept movie has just opened.

Everybody was dancing in the aisles in costume, you know, breaking a rule of cinema, which was videoing and holding on their phones, which they allowed. What I'm saying is I think the way we interact with media has changed. And the sense that we want to feel a part of it and people want to engage with it. And so I think, not old fashioned shows, but I just think that idea of sitting back and watching something is sort of on the decline and what's on the rise of things that are more immersive and this kind of super engagement.

So unfortunately, there's no formula for that. You know, like if I knew what the next thing was, I tell you, but I do think Drag Race is similar to this in the sense that it is a show all of us who work on it feel a part of. And I think that the audience also feels a part of it. Thank you so much for joining us on Sellecast.

Thank you so much for having me. So my next guest on this week's show is Brandon Ralph. How are you doing, Brandon? I am good.

You're a digital entrepreneur. And I think safely we could say that you are the youngest delegate at MIPCOM. Is that right? Do you think that's accurate?

Probably this year. I don't know if I'll continue to be from that time. Hopefully not. But it does seem like a rather interesting, older crowd than me.

Yeah, that's true. Now, I've seen you before. I saw your MIP TV. So tell our audience what it is that you do.

I say digital entrepreneur. But let's expand on that. Tell us about your business. I co-found and run a company called Nile.

We built ourselves as what we call the world's first social streaming platform. We're launching in 2025 and we're targeting 14 to 24 year olds. And we sort of see ourselves as a mix between Netflix and Discord. And what we do is we work with lots of the largest digital creators in the world to come up with fantastic new television grade formats.

And we're doing a deal over here at MIP with a major British production company to produce that content for our platform when it launches in a couple of years time. So it's good now because Nile is the largest stream in the world. We also named it Nile because we fundamentally believe in building communities and the Nile has some of the largest communities around it. That's what streaming is for.

We're starting to build and prepare for that. Just finding interesting and different avenues to go down and find out. And that's really interesting. So when you're saying partnering with social creators, give us a bit more information on that and TV grade formats.

Just expand on it because it sounds fascinating. And something that I'm really interested in is digital first and the whole next ways with entertainment. Just expand upon who you're working with and how that works in practice. Yeah.

We're working with the largest creators in the world, like MrBeast, down to smaller creators that work on niches. One of my favourites, not pastimes, is watching rollercoaster videos. And we're working on a really awesome new rollercoaster format with a bunch of creators there. And what we fundamentally do, I think, for me creators are probably what would have been the next generation of people to come into television.

What I think often happens in TV is they've got kind of long-design screen talent. But actually a lot of the creators we work with are fantastic directors, they're fantastic producers. We're working on some sitcoms with some of them, we're working on comedy festivals, we're working on anything and everything that you do in TV. But it's just doing that in a more sort of youth-focused eye.

And for us, what we really, really love to do is we really love to sit down with these creators, get them in the room with television execs, and kind of just come up with new fascinating ideas. And for a lot of these creators, it's not necessarily just doing what they already do online. It's actually allowing them to break out the molds of the YouTube algorithm and come up with what is their passion, what is their calling, what else would they like to do? And to build a business model that works and that supports that.

One of the challenges of digital first is that monetization piece. So let's talk about Nile N and how that is going to work. Is it subscription service or is it social-based as in free-to-access, but explain your business model? So the fun answer is, it's a bit of both.

We largely around three different tiers at the moment, and this is definitely something to change that. We've got our free tier, our premium tier, and our premium plus tier. The free tier is kind of like live channels, and so the talk of this conference is fast, and so it's sort of that fast-test stuff with some limited content that allows people to be enticed into the platform. Our middle tier, which we are sort of putting at $5.99 a month, comes with ads, but gives you access to all the social features, all the VOD, the full Nile experience just with Adverts.

It's our ad free tier that's $1.99. And our business model is to sell that direct to consumer, but also the middle tier, we also wholesale to pay TV providers and to mobile phone carriers. And so this is sort of deals we've been doing over, not just this myth, but other myths and previous years. Sort of understanding partners how to do that, because the problem we sell for them is a lot of these media companies do great kid stuff, and they do great adult stuff, that there's a big gap in the middle, that they're all trying to fail, and they're all trying to do different things.

And so for us, we provide a solution to those big institutionalized media companies to offer a product to a subset of subscribers that's something new that's different that's fresh. So tell us about the format of this content, and is it short form, mid or long form, or is it a mix of everything? Yeah, so it's a bit of a mix. We programme around what we call our 11, 22 and 44 rule.

And so we do sort of mood driven programming. So we do different types of programming for different points of the day. And so 11 minutes for us, it's sort of faster content. It's sort of gets out there.

Our 22 is where lots of comedy sets, but also we're doing game shows in 22 minutes. So rather than dragging it out for a whole hour, we're doing it in 22 minutes a bit faster. And if for 44, we see that as sort of sit down, relax, long before me in the evening, sort of stuff, where maybe it's a big, gossly entertainment show or drama, and that's sort of where we're fitting into that sort of space. We tend to avoid going over the hour mark.

We're trying to build that sort of all around that. It's not like a strict hard of a rule, but that's our sort of target range of content. But nothing that's super, super short form. And so all of this content is being your commission.

You're working, said, with a TV production partner. TV is expensive. Tell us about your backers. Can you tell us about your funders, your investors?

Not just yet, but I'll happily come back on next year and talk a bit more about our funders. But it is expensive, but what we're doing, I think, rather sabbily, is we're working with one big partner to produce 80% of our content. We do have a small discretionary fund for passionate projects and for individual things that feel right, it fails like that deal. But we're using a lot of global infrastructure because we're not a broadcast that sits in a specific region or a specific area.

We're able to produce everywhere. And I think the big thing that's kind of coming through in Bitcoin this year is lots of fantastic places and countries that are doing new and different tax incentives. I mean, the Austrians have launched theirs this year. I know Ireland are continuing their backing and doing some promising new things.

And I think the big one has been the Saudis that have got their big rebates. And for us, it's looking at different countries and we're doing it. I think sometimes us in the UK get into a little bit of a bubble and think about how things are made in the UK. But actually fundamentally, you know, like we go to spend a lot of time in the Nordics doing stuff there and how they go about making stuff is way more cost effective, a way to maintain that quality that allows us to do that out of buy-shpoint, that works for us.

That's interesting. And we've had previous guests on telecast over the years who working in some of the smaller TV markets with smaller budgets. But the creativity that goes into making those shows successful and making them look fantastic is really something that you'll be looking to lean into that expertise to make great shows for much less. Yeah, for us, the way we see it is we very much see our subscribers giving us their hard-owned money and we being a sort of arbitrator to spend that money.

And so we're not ridiculously small budgets, but we know where near the size of Netflix. We sort of probably sit around the same price point that UK broadcasters pay for a lot of non-scripted content. And the drama we're doing is more continuing or sort of a larger commission drama at the same time. And so for us, it's really about extracting that value, but also just finding how we can do that.

And for a creator, for example, that lives in the United States, it really doesn't matter if we fly to London or Copenhagen. You know, it's not a big deal for them. We're here at MCCOM. It's a traditional TV market.

Obviously, there's lots of new technologies that are featured, so there's lots of discussion around AI, which I would imagine will be a tool that you'll be using a lot going forward. There's lots to talk about fast channels as well. But it is a traditional TV market, and the biggest of that. That's lots of buying and selling content going on.

What are you doing here? I end up just meeting, I think, lots of the other interesting people that are here. I think we sort of stay out of the buying and selling game, and that sort of thing. And I think that represents probably 90% of the people here.

But what we try and find is interesting people. And for us, what's also really valuable is a lot of the decision makers are here. And so the top execs and all the big companies are here. Not the ones that are doing the buying and selling, but the ones that are there to meet people like myself and two different deals.

And so, you know, our sort of deal with producers, and we've spoken to lots of big production companies, a lot of those conversations start with the executives here at MIT conferences. On that technology piece as well, have you already got a platform partner? Is that that's providing the back end? Or are you going through the process of working with the investors?

I don't tend to understand how it works. Presumably, it's not just a website. It's a website with lots of back end around it. Have you got a partner now?

Fundamentally, we are a tech company, and we are building all of that from scratch. And so we've built over the last year, a lot of video tech. And so now we can do some five-second live streaming in most of the Western world. That's fundamentally what gets me excited.

And it's why a lot of the production stuff we're sort of sourcing to someone else. It's because fundamentally we're a tech company at its heart. And what we're really passionate about is building the best streaming product that is out there. And so when we talk about social streaming and it's sort of mixed between Netflix and Discord, fundamentally it's around building a brilliant product that our audience wants to come and use and want to come back to.

Not to just too much on UK players, but their tech is like 10, 15, 20 years old now. And so what we're able to do rather excitingly is sort of a brand new slate. Use really great, brilliant open source projects and adapt them and bring them into our ecosystem and allow us to use those. So for any of our listeners who are fascinated by what you're doing, are you looking for any more partners in terms of content partners or working with any of the creators?

Who is it you're looking to partner with that you may have met here that you want to speak to? I mean, we really, really open to speak to a wide range of people. It's kind of my job to go and speak to if you're a creator, if you work in business development, if you're doing different things. For me, what gets me really excited is if innovation is part of your DNA and what you do, we want to talk to you to level with you if you're kind of a boring sort of commissioner or a very old school production company that doesn't really think about innovation in the future.

Probably not for us, but I imagine there's some people that are listening to this. Probably the sort of people that are into innovation. We're happy to have chats at markets or we're based in the UK. And so if you're UK based, we're always happy to have conversations or zooms.

But for us, what I really like is I like kind of people that are doing something different, people that are exploring new technology, new different things, and also people that are excited about working with creators and doing something in a greater space. Brandon, thank you so much for joining me. It's really fascinating to hear about what you're doing. I'm going to be watching it with great interest, as I'm sure a lot of our listeners will be.

So great to see you at NIPCOM. Thanks for spending some time with us. Thank you for having me. So on NIPCOM day two, I'm here with Virginia Musile from TV program analysis business, the WIT, how you doing, Virginia?

Hello, very well. Thank you. Great to see you again. So you have lots of different presentations.

I'd love to hear what you think is trending around the world in TV, in fiction, and lots of other genres. So tell me what you're seeing as the trending topics in TV. So to start with fiction, we see two movements, first, very real programs, real based on true facts, and quite dark. And the totally unreal fiction adapted from webtoons from Korea and comedy.

It had been a long time I had not found any comedy to present. And this time I was very happy because I really found comedy and things to love in antagonism with other series that are totally real based on real facts, and also trending with, for instance, migrants tragedies, crime migrants, and society issues. So these are all shows that are doing well around the world, and you're expecting to see more and more of those being commissioned going forward? Yes, I think so.

It's not that they're doing well in terms of rating, because usually I present shows that have not started or that are about to start. But I see that in terms of the creativity and content for fiction, it's really focusing on the crisis that society faces at the moment, and on the other side, on real humor and comedy that we did, and unreal or surreal situation that people probably need to escape. And your sessions are always the must-see, must-a-ten sessions at MIPCOM. Lots of execs tell me, oh, no, I can't do it that time because I'm going to see Virginia from the wit.

Tell me about what other types of trend analysis you've been doing. You've been doing fiction, you're saying that there's a rising comedy, which is great, we all need a bit of levity in these difficult times. What else are you seeing? I'm also doing a presentation on formats.

And the formats, there are two ways at the moment to deal with formats. First, a lot of reboots. So like if you were stuck to a certain security of the past and pleasure of the past, and you know with classic comedy formats like a reboot of the Jo Shmo Show, and a new format that looks very interesting called The Underdog, where you have one real contestant, but actually thinks is in the middle of a new reality show, and actually all the others are actors who will prong him. And on the other side, you have an attraction for artificial intelligence, but actually it's also linked to a fear.

Where will AI bring us? And there's an interesting format, is it are you for real? Because I'm today to show where one shooter is real and the four others are just made by artificial intelligence. And if the main contestant chooses the fake one, he loses everything.

So he fantasizes on artificial intelligence being. So it reveals also a global fear for the future or the planets. We're attracted by the future with all the possibility of AI, but at the same time we don't know where it would bring us to. And it reflects our global fear for the future.

And we have also a couple of formats more on the factual side on what is how is our future looking. There is a show called The Restaurant of the Future, not to destroy our bodies. Maybe we have to change the way of cooking, eating, etc. And also what can we do with the heat, what can we do to survive this natural catastrophes that we can control.

And maybe we can't control the artificial intelligence either. So it's really the big success in Spain this summer was called Jean-Marie, and it was a reboot of a show from the mid-90s. So quite old, but it was a very lighthearted, easy-going show with two-pier challenges. It was the success of the summer in Spain.

And at the same time in Spain you have a show on the N and the next guest on this week's MIPCOM telecast special is Eric LaPointe, from and now Global Distribution Business, Eric. Welcome to Cannes. Thank you. And actually I'll just be a little bit more precise.

It's actually a consulting company that does help people with distribution, but also with development as well. So yeah, well tell me a little bit more about your business and who do you work for, how do you work, what's your key focus area? Sure. Well, it's good that you actually mentioned distribution because when I first moved to Vancouver some, gosh, now six years ago, I did actually plan on starting up a distribution company with no investment whatsoever.

And it was going OK, but then the pandemic hit. And then I just realized that I was already making most of my income from consulting. So when things aren't working, you just kind of double down on what is working. So I basically fired myself and started doing more consulting, started reaching out to new clients.

So I represented a bunch of different clients in that regard. One of my main ones is a company out of Vancouver called Global Mechanic. They're an animation studio that have been around for 20 plus years. So with them, my main role is to help them with their development slate of new IP.

OK, so it's mainly producers that you're consulting with and helping them work out how they sell their shows internationally. Exactly. So I have another client in Vancouver called Trembling Point Studios. They have a number of live action IP, mostly trauma, thrillers, some helping them with their development.

And then on the flip side, there's another new client of mine, a Swan Inc based out of LA. And they have a ready-made self-produced series called Phoenix. And with them, the goal has been mostly to help them find the distribution that they need. Clearly it's animation, it's scripted and factual as well.

You work across all genres. Yeah, it's a bit crazy, but maybe not non-factual so much, but at a certain point I think I'll stick to scripted because I'm already doing too much, but that is also the life of a consultant. And I do all sorts of other things too, by the way, just and I do, I have shares in three stand-up clubs in the Vancouver area and actually now Calgary as well. So I've got my hands in all sorts of things, but media is obviously my first passion.

So we're sat here in Cannes. You can hear the genuine sound effects of a motorcycle going past, which is it's not AI generated. We're genuinely here in the factories of Cannes. Mipcom, you're here for Mipcom.

Clearly it's an important market for you. What are you going to be doing over the next few days? So the clients I just represented about meetings for them. In just an hour we're going to close a distribution deal for Phoenix.

And then after that meeting with different broadcasters and other co-producers for the animation studio out of Vancouver. And then also as a consultant just kind of being here to find out are there other potential producers that need support and need help? So generally networking as well. You mainly work with production companies from the Americas, or do you work with European producers as well?

Right now it's all the Americas. So let's talk about the TV industry for a consultant right now. It's a tough time, right? We all know that.

We've all had challenges over this year, whether you're in a production business distribution, obviously it's going to be slightly challenged when the key buyers are buying less. How has it affected you and how are you seeing it from your standpoint? It will indirectly affect me. But from the most part my role is to connect the producers with other distribution companies and the broadcasters.

I think the strike that happened in the States did not help at all with the development side of things. And it didn't help at all. Even on the sales side of things, one of the things we're constantly afraid of is while we're pitching these shows, as Canadians are we going to look like? The Americans call it scab.

Like if you're trying to come in and pitch a show from a different country, then you're a scab for the... So it was kind of a weird time, but at the same time you didn't know how long it would last. And so it has to be business as usual. That's just key pitching because anyways development takes forever.

So by the time that we would get a green light, the strike would be over. So it was a concern, but really it wasn't a concern. I think it's psychologically a concern mainly to Americans as well. Yeah.

So Nick Combs, not just about those back-to-back meetings and charging up and down the cross-et. It's also about networking, it's about partying, it's about lunches. How's your diary looking? Are you kind of maxed out?

A little bit. Actually, I kept it light on purpose this time. This is like my fewest meetings ever, and that doesn't sound great for a podcast, but I book myself like 20 meetings. I'm going to 10 more panels, which is something I've never actually done in my, what, eight, nine years of attending here.

And just planning on going to more cocktails and more networking in the evening, because sometimes that's where the action happens, and that's where you meet people and new potential clients and new potential partners. And you already know who you already know, so we're going to run into them, we're going to have drinks with them, and then if the conversation strikes up, there's holes in my schedules that I can then fill up for those conversations. Rather than always being like, I think I'm overly paranoid, I'm always trying to like stack up my schedule, and then I do run into people, and then I have no flexibility. So what's, I guess I'm doing the opposite of what I used to always do.

Yeah, well, that's the danger, isn't it, that you want to justify the cost of coming here and flying halfway around the world and stacking your diary and thinking, I'm going to get, you know, I need to get the written investment coming here. But, you know, it's important, yeah, you have to, right? But at the same time, I think I reached a certain amount that I was happy with, and then I just scheduled a number of like dinners and whatnot, and just last night I had an impromptu dinner, and then we all end up at Brown Sugar, and then I saw more people in, one Saturday night than I would have if I had tried to schedule that with everybody. So, so you're saying you're going to visit some panel sessions?

Is there any one in particular you've highlighted that, you know, he's definitely gone in the diary? I do wish that there would have been more interesting panels, because this is the first time I'm actually going to panels. I was a little bit underwhelmed by the options, I'm just going to be completely honest with you. However, the ones that stand out for me that I will check out, again, because I were conscripted and worked with different producers, the formats one is of interest, that's the Frappe Formats Summit, interested in the Fast and Global Summit, although I kind of know what I'm about to hear, but I'm going to keep an open mind and hope that that is really interesting.

And then on top of that, there's an another separate Fast and Avod panel on the Wednesday as well. So, so those are like three examples of what I'm going to check out, and I hope that they're productive. And I think we've had this conversation before, Justin, sometimes you go to panels and it's a lot of self-promotion. And at the end of the day, especially when you're a new producer, you want to go to these events and really learn something.

So, as somebody who's been in the business for a while now, actually testing out panels for the first time, I was like, I think this could have been slightly better. But we'll see how we go. Okay, well, yeah, that's often a criticism level that event produces about the panels being more self-serving than actually generating and providing insight to the delegate. So, let's see, I'm sure there'll be some of the panels that will deliver.

Eric, thank you so much. I know you've got a packed schedule. Thank you for chatting with me for Telecast and good luck at MIPCOM. Great.

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. So, as we wrap up our MIPCOM 2023 Telecast special, that's all we're here with Lucy Smith to wrap up the week. Lucy, how are you doing?

Hello, Justin. I'm doing really well a little tired, but doing great. Thank you. It's been a great beginning to MIPCOM with MIP Jr.

the weekend before. It seems to have been a successful week. A lot of people are talking about deals that they've done. So, this clearly business has been done this week.

So, that's all good. So, Lucy, tell us about the highlights of MIP Jr. and MIPCOM. Well, the weekend kicked off really well, which I was glad to say, because I think MIP Jr.

last year felt a little bit less vibrant than it had in the past. And this weekend felt really like MIP Jr. was back. Everyone was so happy.

There was a really big increase in the numbers of people who came. There were over 1,200 people there. And a lot of great, you know, keynotes and screenings and everything. So, I think, and the party on opening night, we had like more than almost 600 people.

I had to beg them, adjust it to keep people coming in. So, we did have a great weekend to kick off. And then yesterday, the opening day of MIPCOM was absolutely packed with great events and great things happening. So, we've had the World Premiere screenings, which actually kicked off on the Sunday evening, of course, with Zorro, with Miguel Balmador, and the new man behind the mask for Media One, and a packed audience.

And then again, last night, Alice and Dax from Fremantle, Andrea Reisberg was there. So, it's wonderful seeing some amazing talent and producing talent here in Cannes. And we had a whole series of keynotes where each time it was just really inspirational people and talking about the industry and what's happening. And that's what people here to hear about and the announcement.

So, someone like, you know, Gerhard Zyla from Warner Brothers Discovery, they made their announcement about the rollout of Max in Europe. Chris Abrego was here with the amazing Eva Longoria, where they've announced their new company, Hyphenate. We had Max Inceda, the CEO of Canel please. I have to say, was a very, very inspirational conversation with Cynthia Littleton from Variety, where he really did focus a lot on everything he's learned from Netflix and how he managed to make them a partner and not a competitor.

And also talked about the amazing opportunities he believes there will be in the millions of stories that were ready to come out of Africa and they're looking to invest more in production there. So, all of that was going on. We had a country of honor, delegation with us all day. So, the Vice Minister and we had an inauguration and various sessions, including a keynote from the CEO of Tencent, which was very well attended as well.

We ended the evening with a really good party, again, at the Majestic, and it was really packed. And we had a lot of talent who came with the red carpet there. So, that's why I might sound slightly tired. And now we're on to Tuesday.

Yeah. And that's right. My voice is getting a little bit hoarse as well. But it's always the sign of a good MIPCOM.

As MIPCOM, 2023 draws to a close, we always think about MIPTV and what's coming next in the next month. Tell us about MIPTV and how that's looking in 2024. Sure, of course. MIPTV, of course, we're already planning looking forward.

We have new dates this year, which will be the 8th to the 10th of April, 2024, with a newly confirmed pre-opening weekend. So, the 6th and the 7th, which will be dedicated to what's always been the case of MIPTV, the biggest weekend in unscripted, with MIPDoc and MIP format. So, under one badge, one registration, everyone can have MIPDoc formats plus MIPTV. So, during the MIPTV days, there'll be more time to focus on making sure exhibitors can have the meetings they need.

So, yeah, we're very busy planning MIPTV already. I can move from a shift. Yeah, that's interesting. So, it's really kicking off on the Saturday, right?

So, it's the whole weekend before the normal Monday to Wednesday. And just really giving people the opportunity to spread out the meetings a little bit more. Because I think that's what some of the feedback that we've had on telecast from MIPTV has always been that people really appreciate the fact of having perhaps less meetings, but more productive and fruitful conversations by having maybe one an hour, as opposed to one every half hour. Yeah, no, absolutely.

I heard the same thing. It gets more into a good quality conversation that really can move a project forward in a more important way. So, I agree, some less meetings, but more in-depth meetings. I think MIPTV absolutely will have more time for that.

And also, I think that weekend allows people to, before the market opens, focus on the discovery. And that was always what it was about. MIPDoc and MIP format are discovering the new content. So, MIPDoc with its screenings library and MIP formats, where there's lots of presentations of the new formats coming from around the world, pitching, etc.

So, that's our goal, is to bring that back. Because that's always what was a very big strength for MIPTV. Lucy, I'll let you again on for the last day or two of MIPComm. It looks like it's been a great success.

So, congratulations. We'll see you for MIPTV. Absolutely. And thank you very much.

There's still a lot ahead, Justin. We've still got our personality of the year coming into town today, Bob Backish, which is really exciting. And one of the highlights that I mentioned when we talk before, which is diversity and inclusion taking place today are big diversified TV awards. So, we're here on Plage, Go Land, Day 3 on the Wednesday of MIPComm.

And I'm here with Andy for I Senior Reporter from MIPComm News. Andy, how are you doing? Yeah, good thanks. Very well, very well.

Nice to be here on the beach looking lovely. So, how are you dressing? Okay. I'm really well.

My feet are hurting a bit. I have to be honest, but I'm tired but happy. Yeah, you really have to tread the boards here. You do.

You do. I think I walked seven and a half miles. My Apple help app tells me yesterday. But thank you for joining me.

It's great to see you for our now sort of fairly traditional MIPComm news wrap. So, tell us what are the main stories that we're making the news for MIPComm News this week? It's a big diverse market. So, there are lots of stories, some thematic, some deal-making.

I think I'd probably start with some of the keynotes that we've had here. So, we've had Gerhard Zyla of Warner Brothers Discovery speaking. We've had Bob Bakisch of Paramount talking. I think the takeaway from both of those guys is that, because of the correction we've seen this year in terms of the streamer strategies, they found that they weren't growing their estate business as quickly as perhaps they'd hoped.

They were spending a lot of content. They weren't sure how to monetize it. Profitability became a much more important issue for them. So, what the message we got from both of those guys was that content licensing is still a really important part of their business model.

Now, that's obviously good news for MIPComm and for anyone who comes here. What they're saying is that, of course, we're creating content for our own platforms, but we're in the business of selling our content to third parties, because what they say is that they want to get the content out to as many consumers as possible. What they mean when you decode that is they want to make as much money out of their content as they can. So, I think that's been a big important thing.

The notion of distribution is dead is far from true. Streamers in the wall gardens are having to be more flexible. We saw that earlier this year with the arrival of the advertising tiers on their platforms as well. So, I think that's been a really important thing.

I'd say one of the other stories that interested me was Mo Abudu's keynote. So, Mo is the CEO of Ebony Life, which is an Nigerian company, but she has quite a lot of partnerships. We had the likes of Sony, Lionsgate, and Idris Elba and the BBC, but she was talking about how difficult it is to get really big budgets for African content, that she's just not seeing people like her on TV. And I think there's a really interesting point there, which is that everybody recognise that Africa is an emerging continent of significance that in 2025 is time, a quarter of the world's population are going to be living in Africa.

It's a massive growth opportunity, but so far known as made the big bet on African content. There isn't a kind of an African stranger thing, and I think she feels that she gets a lot of pushback from commissions when she tries to pitch ideas. Falling through on that, we saw Amazon Prime this morning doing its own spotlights on Africa, so Amazon had a couple of executives talking about what they're doing in Africa. And, you know, in a way it contradicted Mo Abudu in a way it reinforced their own.

They're there, they're looking for ideas, but their first big idea is an unscripted idea out of Nigeria. So, you know, the fact that they're going down an unscripted route suggests that they want great stories from Nigeria, South Africa, other parts of the continent, but at the moment they're not going to commit massive budgets to that. So, I think there's an interesting story there about, maybe this is the wrong year to spend a lot of money on African content, but the time has got to come when that happens. There were so many changes happening in the industry.

This year, I think we've seen as much turbulence going in the market and certain amount of uncertainty, and as you intimated earlier on, lots of the big media players looking at their business models and taking a bit of a use in terms of content and licensing distribution. But equally, these businesses have got a look to the future, right? And as you say, that's a massive growth market. We also saw China coming back, which has always been the amount of growth market, but that's probably received for a number of reasons over the last few years, not least through COVA but also censorship issues as well.

What else did you see as key trends and stories? Yeah, I think it's always illuminating to go to the WIT sessions with Virginia Musilay. She always hacks the format sessions and her fiction session. So, today she did fiction.

And I felt one of the interesting points that she highlighted there was that the continued growth of drama based on true life. She had done a bit of a data breakdown. She pointed out that there were more dramas this year based on true life stories than there were the previous year. So, it's a growth market.

And that really speaks to some of the risk of version in the market at the moment. People would rather go through, in the UK, Yorkshire, or a Jimmy Savile story. They don't want to go after things that already have an inbuilt brand equity. One of the shows she picked out was was when I've been talking a lot about Vipathon site Linkedin called The Long Shadow, which is a very good show about the Yorkshire River, really well told.

And that's been telling around the world. They did a lot of deals this week. So, what she was saying was that there were a lot of stories based on reality and a lot of those reality stories sent to crime stories. So, true crime has also been lifted.

All true crime boats have been lifted at the same time. So, I'd say the big one in this year has been true crime, not just in the UK. There were some French examples as well. Lots of stories revolving around how women have been let down by institutions.

There was a story coming out of France, which was about a rapist who was able to rape hundreds and hundreds of women over a period of 30 years and not get caught. It was to do very much with the negligence of the police. I think there's an Irish one called The Vanishing Silence, which again, same thing disappearing within. Police slow to react.

And that was what The Long Shadow was about as well. So, true crime doesn't go away, always here. That seems to be more examples of fiction, true crime than previously. I think she also talked about migrant crisis and the way the current issues that we're having all around the world with migrants.

And that's also another example of those true stories playing out essentially, and people wanting more authenticity from their drama. Yeah, I think so. I think you're exactly right. She pointed to another example of a big sinking of a ship called Estonia, which sank in the Baltic Sea about 30, 40 years ago, killing 800 people.

And that looks like a really, really well-crafted piece of drama. But you're right, whether it's to do with the issues of the migrant crisis, major catastrophes, true crime, all of those things are stories that we're gripped by as audiences. And at a time like this, when you have to be sparing with your cash, you have to make sure you back the right things, then it makes sense to do that. And as I say, it kind of flows into this notion that the industry is doing a lot of rebooting at the moment.

When it always has, it is a risk-averse industry. But this came up with a BBC session with Rebecca Glaz-Howl and Ralph Lee from BBC Studios. One's distribution, one's production, and they were talking very much about how they're dealing with the current situation. And they gave sneak previews of two of their projects.

One of which is a reboot to the famous five. So, if you're looking for an example of reboots, they're a good one. The other projects plan is a three, not a reboot, but they've built this amazing brand. So why not keep working with it, keep monetizing something that's proven to be a global success?

So I think that was a risk-aversion, rebooting was another big message this week. There was a return to discussions around fast. This time was the first fast and global summit was all that Nip TV. Obviously, it was a NipCon version of that as well.

What are you seeing in terms of announcements around fast? Because there seems to be so many of them coming out almost every day. I think the nature of fast is that if you have a show with more than 200 or 300 hours of content, you can make a channel. So Jamie Oliver, the channel Gordon Ramsay channel, but anyone who has that can go to a facilitator like Amagi, they can get a channel up and running.

And in addition to that, there are probably 100 to 150 different platforms out there. So we all know that Samsung TV, and Roku, and Freebie. But there are many more rackets. It just goes on and on.

Most of the connected TV manufacturers visit OTCL have platforms. So the reason you're seeing so many announcements is because there are so many companies with shows and so many platforms and so many territories. So when you think about that, every announcement you're seeing is company X launching a channel on a new platform into a new market. So they could be doing that 20 times across the year.

It can be genre based, like True Crime, for example, but it also can be individual IP based as well. Yeah, which is an interesting point to myself because there's been a fast and global summit here this time for two days. And one of the first session today was Evan Shapiro, who was meant to be here in person hosting the summit. But unfortunately, he's unwell.

So he gave a session. He got that three o'clock in the morning to give a session from America where he presented his findings on the market. And one of the things he points out is actually the biggest pro-fairy and fast right now is news and live and music. And the point he was making is that it's like the beginning of the televisionizing of fast and all of the kind of library channels that have led the way are perhaps less significant than maybe we thought they were going to be.

So they're being overtaken by people who can come with live content, news content, maybe original content. So we're seeing a transitioning. And I think one of his really interesting points, everybody, it's like a gold rush in them. And everybody thinks that fast is the great new opportunity to make money.

And he was making the point that you really need to see it in context. And he was pointing out the fact that in the world of connected TV, which is where fast essentially lives, the biggest buy by far is YouTube. He says, if you look at the revenues and the audience that YouTube can grab, it's a faster pass is anything that's happening in fast. So I think fast places have to be very careful about the fact that they are playing in a market that has some very big beasts.

Having said that, and exec from a Margie came on the stage after they were sponsoring the event, and he talked about the positives. He said it's still a growth market, fast is still growing far quicker than S4, quicker than pay to be, which is actually in decline. And he talked about some of the ways in which fast will improve and the user experience will get better, will be new innovations in ad format. So he was still selling a very positive encouraging message, obviously, because that's his business.

As long as you enter fast with your eyes wide open, recognize the fact that you have to have good content to cut through, and that probably you're going to have to have a bit of a budget for some origination, not talking about 10 million episode origination, but you've got to be able to create some content that's going to sit on your channel, that's going to create some sense of refreshment on your channel. I think that's important. And as long as you remember that there are big beasts in the jungle like YouTube, then you know, it's an interesting area, and I'm sure there'll be another summit next time, the mipcom rolls around. How would you summarize this mipcom in terms of the news that's come out of it and the key trends really that you see?

Well, I think we've come a lot. What we haven't really talked about is the deals. Now, these markets are always thought about as being places you come to do deals. Now, the reality is that often you start a deal a couple of months ahead, and then you get to the market, and you maybe put in place a really important part of the deal.

You maybe sign it off at the market, or maybe you kind of have a conversation about some of the nuttier elements of the deal, and maybe you finish it off after it. So it's slightly unrealistic to mention that you're just going to get lots of deals done within the two or three days of the market. But deals get moved on, and deals get announced. And I think there were quite a lot of deals.

No, no, I mean, I created a list, which is the ones I've noticed, which so I'm not being too too kind of academic about it. But we had Banerjee selling Marian to an ex-the-BBC. We had Sinflix selling Reginald of Empire in Last King of the Cross 2, various broadcasters, actually studios were selling World on Fire Around the World. All three media were selling drama to Acorn, so that's scripted content.

We had format deals like I, IBM and Turkey buying the format for Avenue to Brazil to remake that in Turkey. We've had some deals around game shows and some prime today taking a BBC format called One-Scent Club, got the BBC and Nip on TV, co-developing something called Costo Costo. So you can documentary, passionate selling and anniversary documentary about the assassination of JFK, six years on. So the stuff happening, people are doing deals.

I think if you've got your eye open to opportunity, then it's still a business where transactions are happening. And I think that's one of the encouraging things. For all the doom and gloom, there's still a voracious content market to be fared. And coming to the 10, 11,000 people here this week, and maybe slightly smaller than the last year's, which was a very euphoric return after Covid, but still really big, execs from all over the world doing deals, co-production format deals, sales.

So I'd say there's a resilience. I don't want to be, you know, don't want to hike it too much. It's not a boy in the market, but there's a resilience and a desire to be business. And you see it on people's faces.

I haven't seen anyone depressed. It's like no people are glad to be here. I'm glad you're doing business. Andy Fry, thank you so much, as ever, for giving us that really great overview of what's been going on at MipCon this week.

And we'll see you again for Mip TV. Yeah, yeah, no problem. Good to go to the store. Well, that's about it from MipCon 2023.

Thanks for listening. I'm off for a lie down now. Telecast was edited, I had Ian Chambers and recorded in Cannes. On the next week's show, I'm chatting with BBC Studios and at Balta and Jasmine Dawson, as we discussed all things digital first.

Until then, stay safe.