Episode 161- MIA 2023 special

Tubular Labs, powered by Sharp-Eats, is a leader in global social video intelligence and measurement, providing a unified view of the passions and behaviours of audiences across YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitch and more. With the largest social video database covering more than 15 billion videos and 45 million creators, Tubular helps household-name brands, leading agencies and the largest media properties grow their business and lead on social by anticipating trending content new creators and what's next in culture. For more info, visit tubularlabs.com I'm here in Rome, the sun is beating down to about 80 degrees, it's the second week of October. I'm delighted to be here at Mia for my first time, which is the international audio-visual market in Rome.

I'm delighted to be here with Marco Spagnoli, who is the Bachelor Director of the market, but involved in much more ways and purely just on the factual side. Marco, how are you? Fine, thanks. It's really summery here, so we enjoy the last of these strange Roman summer.

It is a strange Roman summer, it's amazing to be here and outside enjoying the sunshine this time of year. My first trip to Mia, tell us about Mia and its background first of all. For anybody who's not aware of it, a lot of people will be aware of it in the calendar and seeing it in the international industry calendar, but give us a sense of the history of the event and what it's here to achieve. Mia market took the heritage of a small market, it was part of the Rome Film Festival, it was called Business Street.

So nine years ago they decided to expand this concept, to make a market more for serious and films. Then came documentaries, and then this one arrived. In the last two years we tried to develop more the factual thing, that has many challenges because of the rights. Sometimes we say, why do we make rights, a market for rights that we cannot sell, or buy.

But things are changing also in this landscape, and the last edition was the animation side. So people will come to Rome, especially companies that produce different types of things, formats, documentaries, film, dramas. It can be in Rome and can work for five days in all their sectors. Who's here, where are they from and what are they looking to achieve?

Where they're from, they're from like 56 countries, of course there's a majority of Italians because of this is also a very strong event for the Italian market itself. We have all the people from the Field Commission, the producers, the broadcasters, all together here. But the people who come here are looking for financing their production projects. We have four different pitching forums.

We also have a pitching forum for factual when it will be possible, or we'll find a formula that makes everybody here happy to be here. And there are also a lot of financiers, there are a lot of funds, so there are lots of people who come here to understand more how to invest in cinema. And also because Italy is one of the most important and most well-functioning tax credit. So there are projects that have no relation whatsoever to the count.

Imagine that today it will be presented here, the series from Unprofit by Jacques Odier, and it's shot in Puglia. And so it's a total remark. And so this is why we want to have new friends like you to understand more and to help us also to achieve some goals. What is very important that every year we try to refocus on the market?

And so it's really the market itself to tell us what to do. The market is produced by the Italian Association of Producer. It's a governmental institution funded by the Italian trade agency. It means that we have a budget, we don't need to call it to ask for people to come here in order to have their money.

We don't, of course, it must be entities, luckily, in black. It's not on the red. But still it's very important because sometimes I feel that when I talk to people that they are asking for the money for their creditation. I mean, of course, like I pay in other markets they have to pay.

But for us it's more important to be part of this project, to understand the possibilities that Italy on many levels offers to produce, to broadcast. And also to credit people who want to tell their story maybe set the era instead or elsewhere. We know that Italy's got an incredibly rich history in film and cinema. But when we're talking about TV specifically, perhaps Italy hasn't been as outwardly facing internationally as some of the other European markets.

Is that starting to change with the streamers that have come and invested in various different territories around Europe? Is that starting to change or is it starting to change or is it more and more international projects really sort of spreading around the world? Or is that, is it still got a way to go in that area? I think that in this business there's always a way to move.

It's not nobody alive anywhere. Italy has always been a lender of cinema. We are facing the event of the backstage for the Dolce Vita, but totally for the film. So if you think I've been sent in a little weeks in another town or Tennessee Williams, the Roman Spring of the East.

They were all set there. That was the 50s, the 60s. And now afterwards now we have the drama. My brilliant friend is a co-production between Riot HBO and there are many other projects that are coming.

We know that we are maybe advanced in one part and we are a bit a bit late or not as well developed as an illustration. But for example, the commenters are traveling very well all over the world. Although we don't have let's say the big name, the big success that you would point. But it's not going to be difficult.

Now we were talking about TACPLOL. Yesterday we had a very interesting discussion with James Stanley by Benny J. And he explained why Italy is so relevant for Benny J and what is changing. And then things are changing.

Do you think there are a few hints that you feel that are interesting for example, Italy's Got Talent, that is the version now was acquired by Disney. So Italy is on Disney+, and they say of course without numbers that we don't know that it's far more successful than they expected. So what you see is that things are changing. It's interesting for us to understand what are the direction for this type of change.

And it's very important to know also that there are a lot of things that you need to do in order to achieve some goal. In terms of especially of co-production and especially in terms of funding. But this is why also people come here and understand that maybe there is a way to do something here that we didn't think of. It always happens this way.

The history of a cinema in Italy has always been very well connected to few entrepreneurs, producers that came here and had an idea. Why don't we do something like that? And imagine the first American production in Italy was in 1912. So it's 111 years after the first production.

So it's a longer history. There might be some changes. There might be some challenges. There aren't some challenges.

But I think that in the end it's always the quality of the products that you can achieve here. Because you wouldn't understand why there are so many American film or British film or German film French film shot here. With or without Daxxterated. That's the thing.

Chine Chita is full. Now they think to do another open to other studios. So we'll see. Nothing is written in stone.

So we are looking for new chapters for this ongoing story. I was speaking to Lucy Smith, boss of Mecom recently. And she was saying that clearly for a market that focuses on co-production, the changes that are happening within the streaming market and the SVOD market at the moment is perhaps leading the industry more down the co-production routes. And obviously that's something that you're looking to bring in more co-production partners from all around the world.

So why should they come here? Why should they make Mia a really key market on their list if it isn't already? Mia market is an expression of Italy. It's an expression of a system.

We are like the tip of the iceberg or the welcoming door in a very big store or anything that I would say in ancient Palazzo. So why to work with Italy is a question that should be or in Italy it's a question that should be addressed to so many producers and co-produces that came here and they do their thing. Imagine just the bond fields. I think Italy is one of the counties where the bond females have more and more stories.

It's not just a background asset. Now you can produce with Italian talent. You can produce with Italian shows. For example dancing with stars.

Italy is like a weekend big show that you're doing. And the judges decided the Italian version should be addressed as a new change of the format because it was so different from the original. So it add up something. So there are many possibilities in terms of creative of course but also financing possibilities because every region has some story, it's fun and also they are very interested in supporting and helping people coming here.

So I think that there are a lot of possibilities. And Mia is interesting because in five days you can meet everyone. It's not that you have to go to Milan, to put in or to pull your system. They are all here.

They are all here in order to understand the necessities of production. So you don't need to talk to the politician who has a fund. You're talking people from Seattle to the pinpointing in the right direction. And this is quite interesting because especially nowadays it's important to have a market that's about ideas more than finished products.

Mia couldn't, I mean we have a lot of screenings. We have also areas where you can buy the finished products. And also a market where you are helped in order to achieve your idea in the best way possible. To give you an idea that you can find the executive producers such as N.S.

S.I.S.D. with the guy who told Mal Gibson why don't you shoot in Matera. And Matera wasn't, nobody has shot like 30 years of film there. And then now if you want to shoot a film you have to book like because it's every six months a Bond film or whatever.

So it's more about ideas than finished products. So for the producer, for creative person, even for an executive, they can meet people and understand what should be the right way to approach the market. It's clearly a market where there's lots of conversations going on and lots of people meeting. That's the great thing we met actually at 5 a.m.

in the morning in the back of a taxi market. I'd have to say it wasn't at the end of a long night. It was actually the beginning of a long day when we were leaving very early from the sunny side of the dock to fly various places. Finally, just to wrap up, tell us a bit about your background.

How did you come to be factual director at Mia? What was your background in film and factual form? I'm a journalist. I started 53 and I started 30 years ago covering the entertainment industry.

And at one point of my career I was asked to work in Festive, I was such a meaner, and a T.B. in Rama Fest, I call it a homo fiction fest. And at the same time I started doing documentaries because I was asked and things found a little bit of success. At one point they need to reimagine the dock section and they asked me if I want to bring my expertise also on the productive side.

I started with my colleague, Guy Atherdentus, now the director of Mia, another person that's talking about working in Ching Chita. And at one point she became the director of Mia and I became the deputy director of Mia and I oversaw the dock section. I think it was right choice because of Guya as a stronger risk than I have. Sometimes women are, I think a mass majority of cases women are better than men in organizing things and making everything right at the same time.

And of course I'm a friend of course in 20 years but I supported the choice. So this is why I started doing this dock in fact thing and every year we find some challenges. But for me the important thing is also I have this journalistic approach. When I meet somebody like we did, I knew about your work, I just never met before.

So I say why? Because they came down to me, why don't we do something together? Because that's the really the Italian thing. Because you see the opportunity.

That is not any truth about the market. We don't know what, but we can work with other people from over the world and become friends in order to make it better. Because there are a lot of things we don't know, we don't see. Most of the other way because sometimes I am surprised we are talking about the Italian production.

But people who apparently have talked to go the night before so they know everything that I don't know. And then they tell you, oh what, we work with one of the most important directors in Italy. But what is the name? You are the name and say well, look it's not a competition, but it's not the biggest training start.

Because of course this is a commercial valuation, not the Italian will be there, but at least. And so sometimes my work is also to the bank, the prejudice about Italy. Actually we answer the emails, we try to speak and write in the best English possible. Maybe Oxford won't give us an honorary degree quite soon, but we will survive also this pain.

We try to do our best where a group of people that are working together so we know and also we know what the challenges are. But also what is important is also the changes of the market. Sometimes they ask why do something else? Because it's time, we couldn't do it before.

Why this is the first international factor forum? Because last year we couldn't find so many factors that people lose their own rights. We found them, at least 24. So we made a selection so this afternoon you will see.

But of course this is the first step. What is very important is that we don't think to have the monopoly of truth. And also we know that if you are working this into, you must listen to telecast, to be updated, but also you must do. You have to study.

There is no chance of getting somewhere without studying. And also without making mistakes. But the first thing they told me when I was in my 20s in Rome, they tell you two things that are working. The first thing is only people who don't work don't make mistakes.

And the second thing is it was easy. Everybody could have done it. So my move between these two things. Two possible ways that we had.

Thank you for inviting me to put a panel together. We are doing a panel this week. And we have a little dot studios from Vice. We have television.

We have some fantastic exec line to talk about digital first and future of digital production and distribution. So that's going to be really exciting to speak to all the execs on that panel. Marco, thank you for your time. I know this is your busiest few days of the year.

So thank you for being so generous. Good luck with me. Thank you very much. Thank you.

I'm delighted to be hosting this panel and we're really lucky today to have some real innovators on this stage to talk about the next generation content companies and their business models, what these guys don't know about monetizing digital content isn't worth knowing. So get your questions ready. If you have any, we'll hopefully get to a few of those at the end of the session. And the aim of this really is to share some insights, provide some inspiration and pointers to the future against the backdrop of a very difficult period in the TV industry and the content industry overall.

And perhaps highlights and areas for collaboration between the digital video sector and the more traditional TV industry going forward. So let's introduce the panel. First up, the Hagerdas B is executive managing director global distribution advice media group and has oversight of premium content licensing, fast channel and social media video distribution strategy and co-productions for the group. An international Emmy award winning producer B was previously VP of global scripted content at the studios and her other previous roles include EVP and head of television for Swiss Finance Year Silverry and President of International Allying Gates on scripted distribution.

Next, we have Holly Graham, Chief Business Officer at Little Dot Studios, an award winning digital content studio and media network specializing in bringing premium content to digital audiences. Holly's worked at Little Dot from startup through to scale up, joining in 2013 as the fourth employee and being a key part of its growth to over 500 staff now. In 2018, she set up and led Little Dot's US operations in Los Angeles, building the business and team before returning to London to lead the agency business which covers partnerships across entertainment, sport and consumer brands. Next up, we have Dennis Cortin at the end there.

Dennis was previously a brand consultant for brands like Reebok and a music industry manager for artists including Tokyo Hotel of Solarva, five million albums with four number one singles and three number one albums in Germany. Dennis produces one of the German media industry's biggest YouTube successes of the last few years, seven versus wild and we're going to take a look at that in a few minutes. And finally, we've got Olivier Levard, Director of New and Digital. New and Digital is part of New and Studios which is a subsidiary of TF1.

New and Studios is dedicated to digital production and distribution and focused on supporting digital extensions and original content made by new and production companies, distributing IP from new and connect catalogs and digital first initiatives on digital platforms. So, B, let's start with you. Vice is really the OG in the digital space which pushed the boundaries and many would say laid the foundations for what's possible in digital video now. Describe the business today for us.

Yeah, thank you Justin. Thanks for having me here. Yeah, Vice is the original MCN. So obviously we are one of the most well known digital native companies.

We have five divisions, so we are structured in five different areas. We have our ad agency called virtue. We have Vice Studios, our premium content production company together with Pulse making the kids like Gangs of London and the Fire Festival documentary that everyone knows. And then we have Vice Digital, that's basically our DNA where we grew out of initially.

And then we also have an award winning Vice News business. They just won nine Emmys three weeks ago. They've been a lot of Emmys every year, news Emmys. And then Vice Distribution obviously where we are kind of making sure that these divisions collaborate, share information, we cross all kinds of content from one division to into another and monetize content on all these platforms.

And I started the fast business that's our future and we are looking into kind of growing that from now on. We'll get into talking a little bit about fast later on. Before we move on to Holly, it turns out the revenue streams roughly across the business. You describe how the business is set up.

Give us an idea of where the money's coming from across the business. And monetizing all of the content on more than one platform or area are CEO used to say make content once and sell it five times, which is what I'm trying to do with the team every day and trying to sell it actually 10 times. Obviously a lot of the content starts on digital. We have development teams in digital in TV.

Oh, for that, I still have a cable channel, which is a JVV day any in the US. So we have a development team sitting within Vice TV. We have a development team within studios, scripted and unscripted development teams. So content starts from any of these development teams.

Then we decide where it should live, where the audience is. And then obviously we are monetizing on social media, a lot of this content to begin with when they are originals. They might cross over to the other areas. But if we are making a piece of content for Vice TV, for example, I put it back on social media, I cut it down and put it back on social media to monetize it again and put it on my fast channels.

So what we are trying to do is put one piece of content around the group and also set it outside of the group. I have heard this digital approach is called the optical strategy. So the idea is in the center and the monetization is all the different legs. Okay, brilliant.

We will come back to that in a bit more detail in a second. Holly, welcome to Rome. Thank you very much. So Little Dark is now a major player in this space, as I said, 500 staff and offices around the world.

It is part of all three media group. Describe the growth of the business and how the business is organized and so on. Yeah, so Vice has to identify if we are only dividing the two. There are more offices within the two, but basically at the very top we split in half.

So we are a digital content agency where we are working with partners to grow their digital audiences, grow their audiences on social. So that looks like working with TV companies and same companies, sports organizations, big business and sports and consumer brands to maximize the impact of their existing content on social platforms or to create original content, primarily in the cases of brands because there isn't any legacy content. And so that I guess I mean, exactly right, kind of take the content and figure out how you can maximize the impact of it. Our job kind of sits across all social media platforms, repurposing content.

We do paid social, so driving audiences through paid strategies. We also do social media strategy and then hands on keyboard channel management. So we look after the channels themselves on social platforms. We have kind of really varied spectrum of partners from single IP, TV shows at the Graham Norton Show in the UK through to TV networks, broad spectrum of shows and then sports organizations and kind of different challenges in each sector.

And then the other half of our business is a network of owned and operated digital channels. So 50 social channels and eight fast channels. There where we own and operate the IP of the channel, but we license content in, acquire content and distribute that content on those channels. Again, it's about sweating the content.

So I'm sure we'll say the same thing. You kind of have to maximize the impact of that content on these platforms. And so yeah, we spend a lot of time not just acquiring content, but then kind of down repurposing it, optimizing it for those platforms and getting out to audiences. Okay.

So you're responsible for the Graham Norton clips that are coming through. Just about every social feed that I... Absolutely. Yes.

What's the place? Amazing. I do. I do.

I think that's the kind of amazing power of social platforms that they have the power to be, they are global and they have the power to take whatever that IP is from someone like Graham Wilson. I'm very glad you found him because he's a wonderful man. Through to any kind of IP to global audiences without the kind of barriers that have historically existed. And we can't, we've actually talked about before, we can't predict who's going to watch what we put out when it comes to territory.

So we are obviously programming usually with a certain demographic in mind when we put it onto YouTube, but you know, we might be putting it out for one territory and then actually we find that the audience is huge in another. So yeah, I think that's what's the huge kind of power of social is like you are reaching a global audience the minute you upload it. Want to get ahead in digital first content? The drop is the go to newsletter for industry professionals delivering insider news, trends and insights straight to your inbox.

Navigate the fast changing landscape of digital first production, distribution and monetization. Sign up now for free at dropmedia.co.uk and stay informed with the drop. I'm interested to know how for those who maybe aren't invested into digital completely. You know, how does little dot studios differ from vice would you say?

What's the difference? I mean, I guess the major differentiator is that we don't make the content in most of the cases. So we are either coming to traditional TV companies and helping them navigate the world of digital and optimize their content for digital or sports organizations or kind of legacy organizations, I guess, non digital native organizations helping them move on into the next chapter of distribution. And then in the case of our channel brands, we are primarily licensing content and putting out.

So I guess that's kind of probably our major differentiator. You know, I think there are challenges to that. There are inherent challenges to that. And like there's a kind of what we talk about a lot is IP and how do we navigate the fact that we don't hold a huge amount of IP.

But there's also of course in the digital world advantages as well. So I think probably that's our major so when you talk about your business in terms of monetization and having to kind of optimize for every platform, having to, you know, look to the future, look to the next chapter of fast and how consumers are engaging with content, all of those challenges are echoed in our business. So I'm sure there are a lot of similarities, but I think that's probably a major difference. I mean, the difference between we make everything ourselves so we don't license anything.

Everything you see on vice is vice. And Holly just finally before we move on to Olivia. So digital first, so commissioning yourself to create original content for social media channels and brand sponsorship is so that's not a major part of what you do. It's more about exploiting existing IP and content for other partners and clients.

Yeah, I mean, we have done it. So we actually won a BAFTA a few years ago for the first film shot entirely on an iPhone, which was a real stories original. So we created develop that IP and punch it with a smaller production company. And then that went out in real stories.

We have created original content in the show. They were talking about the search for endurance, which is a history here project. And that is resulting in a significant documentary that we're producing developing in house. But it isn't the major part of what we do is repurposing existing content and helping legacy organizations, but organizations who own content and want to do more with it in lots of different forms and find audiences on social media.

Olivia, coming to you next. Welcome. So new and digital is part of New Studios, which was a relatively recent acquisition by TF1. Tell us about what you do at New Digital.

Thanks for having me here. It's great to speak after you do because what we do at Newen is a mix of both. First, the idea was to do ourselves the distribution and the monetization of all the new and catalog, what we produce for TV historically on all the social platforms. So we built our MCN, multi-channel network on YouTube, Snapchat, Facebook, TikTok, on Fast and everything you can imagine.

So we can be in control of our own content and speak for this content and make them successful at the same time on all these platforms. And the other challenge was to produce for this digital world. And it was very difficult for us because when you are TV, you don't know the economy, you don't know how you do it. So the first step, when you have this channel of distribution, it becomes possible.

And that's why more and more we produced in the same team. And even though these activities are all several years old in Newen, what's new this year is that we built all the teams together. The idea between Newen Digital is that if you put the talents of distribution, who added the clips on YouTube on Snapchat, and who know how to make a good title to make it successful, is they work with the people producing the content in the same room, then you can, the sky is the limit, you can invent great things. And that's what really changed in the team this year.

The vertical where we are strong on the digital world are historically our TV programs. And the true crimes are because of vertical so far. And it's because we have the leading health show every day on National French TV, our true prime show, that's on telecuse every French people know it, it's been around for 20 years. So we built on these catalogs.

And from that we created channels on genres where we are not so strong on shiny flow entertainment, a lot of scripted because we have stronger and scripted companies. And now the original, we are trying to invent what we are not good at in TV, just to make the group grow. So tell us about the relationship with TF1 then for Newen Digital. How does that feed into you?

Does it at all at the moment? Yes, but in a good way you could say things that having a big TV channel is going to be complicated to do digital, but it's the opposite because we are independent on a daily work from TF1. But TF1 is a huge broadcasting company, so we are very close to the challenges that the broadcasting company faces. It's very interesting because we can give them ideas on how to find the young public, how to invent an economy that work on digital.

So far it's a real good challenge. And the good thing for me is that TF1 is also my client. For instance, I think the biggest business for Newen in France is Daily Soaps. They are for Daily Soaps in France and we produce three of them.

And so that's scripted and that's done by the TV branch. But what my team does is also behind the scenes footage for these TV shows. They are more and more ambitious. We used to make a one minute behind the scenes footage just for Snapchat or Facebook.

And now we produce 20 minutes since this year behind the scenes footage and TF1, but then on my TF1, the platform, and it's a huge success. So I believe we will make more and more of these and it looks like a TV business, but it's made by a digital team. Well, that's really interesting because when we talk about the types of content and genres of content that perform well, I think true crime is probably something that performs well. Everyone can agree is a really strong genre, but behind the scenes kind of authentic footage is something that is particular to digital first and digital.

We'll come and talk a little bit about that later on. We'll get to the money where the money is being made and how you make it, because that's what the questions everyone's got. Dennis? Justin.

Hi there. Thank you for joining us. I'm really glad that I thought everybody would think that was just Brits on the panel until we got to Olivier and Dennis, who's joined us from Hamburg. Welcome to Rome, Dennis.

Thank you for being with us. Television is a very different type of business. I think that's what's great about this panel is lots of different types of business doing things in digital in a very different way, and it just goes to show how there are different routes to content monetization. Television is a true indie, if you like, on this panel.

Tell us about your production company. Television was found with a production partner of mine who was in TV business before. I was in the music industry before, was in talent management, all of that stuff. So he told me about the misery of German TV and he said everything's boring and they don't get it and all of that stuff.

So we tried to do it on our own, developed some TV shows and the show that I'm here for now is called Seven World's Wild, which was a YouTube only show and now it's getting to the third season and we're on Amazon 3V and then on YouTube later, plus additional YouTube content behind the scenes content, 12 full episodes on our YouTube channel. You're into the third season, but tell us about the success up to now and the concept. So I think the success comes from the authenticity of the creators because we saw one of the guys, it's called Fritz, like he's a survival expert, he was running a YouTube channel and he came up with this idea for the first season. I asked six of my friends that we want to go to Sweden, film ourselves, just go pro cameras and then let's see what we get out of it.

And it became huge success, second season was in Panama. I think for me it's the authenticity and the realness. That's why it's sometimes a little difficult to market because you cannot, for example, you can't do product placement. It's not possible because then you're taking the way the realness of it.

For me, it is the realness and then combined of course with those influencers, with YouTubers, with Streamers, who you would not expect to be in this scenario out in the wild. Like this season, for example, that's going to start on 3V at the end of October, they were out there for 14 days on an island in Canada and they were really alone. So I think that's a success because people want to watch it, they want to be part of this. I think what we haven't discussed so far on the pun but is particularly relevant to Sembos as well, is community and the power of community and creating content directly and interacting and managing a community.

To me, it reminds me a lot about the music industry because you really have the community of those fans who, when we were starting to film the season, as soon as one picture was read, it was full of, okay, this could be there, that could be there. I saw this boat before, they were tracking helicopters, they were tracking boats, it's ridiculous. But yeah, like you said, the community and that's why we need to keep the community not only happy, but we also have to really listen to them, what they want. For example, we ask them what merchandise would you like to see, like we always interact with them and Fritz our host speaks to them directly.

If there's a problem, if there's anything going on, he really talks to the community and that's of course perfect on Twitch streams, that's easy to talk to everybody. For everybody, there is a helicopter dropping contestants into the sea at the beginning of the episodes. How do you afford a helicopter in a pro-digital first production purely on YouTube? With the bank account that we have?

No, I mean, the production costs really vary from where you're going to shoot it. Like second season Panama, you can imagine it's less expensive than now, third season Canada, even when it comes to helicopters. It's not the same price. We still have helicopters in this season, but we can afford it of course.

We now have freebie as a partner in it, but we also, through the big YouTube channels, we have YouTube revenue and we're also selling ads on our show. So for every episode, our host does a 30 second to one minute ad that brands pay for. So they have not only an ad but also testimonial, speaking about that product, that's how we don't afford it. We sell it before we produce the show.

So we can sell it all before we produce the show, but someone else is coming in before too. And you arrived on a helicopter to Dennis, so wait. Oh, go ahead. Still on top of the video.

Yeah, fantastic. Okay, so back to Vice. Describe the development process internally. Coming back to this idea of the octopus strategy, the idea of the middle and the monetization, or the different legs of that.

How are stories incubated with advice and make their way into a premium featured or a short form video? How does that work internally? Originally, like we are the original MCN, as I said earlier, so all our development teams and digital are very young. Some people joke about Vice like the average age is 28 in Vice.

Obviously, I am kind of pushing that up a bit. So most early it's 25. 29, right. So there are a lot of really talented young people who joined Vice when it was their first job and then they started working on projects.

And that's what we do at Vice. We are trying to help them realize their ideas and make organize it a bit. So the digital teams are very young. We also have separate development teams for the separate divisions, obviously, because the audience is a bit different.

So Vice TV is a US cable network, which is older in your ship. So they are much older, but they are the youngest cable in the US. This cable audience generally in the US is very old. So we are the youngest cable audience in the US.

And then we have the studios teams who are developing content. And what we do is we start with an idea. We have an internal green line meeting where we talk about whether to green line this idea or not. And at that point we might move the idea between businesses.

Or sometimes we do the same thing as Holly was talking about and Holly as well. Digital extensions of something we have. Or we have an original content starting on digital. For example, we have one called One Star Reviews with Tajri.

That was a very successful digital idea, similar to Seven Versus Vice started in YouTube and then it went to Vice TV. And we made a TV version of it that I think should be a format. So we've been talking to various companies about taking it as a format as well. But we are always looking at how we can make more of the same thing that works.

We have a very successful series called Dark Side. Well, it's like a brand now that we created or it's dark side of the ring. And then we made Dark Side of football, dark side of comedy, dark side of 90s, 2000s. And we are putting that everywhere.

So it starts its life on Vice TV. And then it goes to all kinds of other environments. So it goes outside is one of our most successful title that sells to S-Wads and Avid platforms. I put it on the first channel.

And then I also create little cut downs and it's everywhere. We have Snapchat channels and it's one of our highest performing title on social as well. So we are trying to find where the audience goes. And the Vice audience usually is a bit more digitally savvy and they have a smart TV usually.

So we are going everywhere where they are going and everywhere where they are watching our content. Okay, follow the audience. Follow the audience. Yes, always.

Holly, we saw about how you're working with the more traditional TV industry, let's say, little dot studios. And we've seen lots of big numbers, huge amounts of views, huge amounts of followers and reactions and social media, etc. One of the things about the digital sector is that not everything works, right? Not everything works.

But there is more freedom to fail. What's your approach to failure within Little Dot? I mean, obviously you don't want to fail. But it will happen, right?

It naturally will happen. And that's the beauty of digital. What's your attitude to failure? Absolutely.

We have a privilege in digital that we do have the scope to fail more than traditional TV does because you can. Well, for two reasons, I think because you can do a little bit more with a little bit less. So you can kind of take more risks as a result. And then also, I'm sure we're all very aware of the fact that you have a community and that community is not just going to tell you you're great.

They're going to tell you you're not great when they think you're not great as well. And so you have a much closer kind of feedback loop and a way of testing than you do in traditional formats. And we've definitely embraced that. I mean, absolutely.

I think you were saying a minute ago, when something works, we doubled down and when something doesn't work, we stopped doing it. But we're never going to do something just because we don't think it will work. There's someone in the building who doesn't think it will work. If someone particularly, it's the same as you're saying about vice, particularly if someone really young and really digital native thinks it's going to work, let's try it.

And so, usually that's the stuff that works. The stuff that goes on Reddit is usually the stuff that works embracing that opportunity to try things. And while we don't create and develop original content in the same way, all the time, as other companies, we're not just re-uploading content. We're repurposing, we're creating memes, we're trying to go viral, we're trying to re-edit to the moments that you just want to see on TikTok versus the moments that you want to see on YouTube versus the moments that you want to watch on Facebook.

And so the ability to test around that is such a privilege and it doesn't always feel like it, but the feedback you get is such a privilege. And so taking from it, listening to it and pivoting strategy on that basis is, I think probably the funnest and the best thing about digital platforms really. So in our day to day working, that's our attitude to failure. But I think it ladders up to the macro too, that we've explored parts around it to absolutely haven't worked.

And then we've had others that, our entire digital broadcast network was really founded in the fact that we do a lot of content claiming, so we work with partners to claim user-generated uploads of their content, illegal uploads of their content on social platforms. And sometimes they want us to take it down, but sometimes they want us to monetize it for them. And so in a lot of cases we were seeing that where we had claimed content and were monetizing it, people were watching long-form documentaries on YouTube in a way that in an era when no one thought that's what people were doing on YouTube. Everyone thought that people were watching cat videos or whatever on YouTube.

And so we were like, wait a second, there's a business in it. There's something in this. There's something to test here. And so we set up real stories.

And then now that is our most successful broadcast network channel, which is just long-form documentaries on YouTube and other platforms. So yeah, I think taking that kind of test and learn approach is something to take into the day and into the business strategy in this space. So continuing the theme of linear TV and digital and how they're working together or separately in some cases, Olivia, you've had great success with a Brankall SafeZone in France. Tell us a little bit about that.

I like what you said about Risk and Failure because this hit we had this year, SafeZone, it started with that. We were very sad and very jealous of our people from TV in our company because they were successful in launching lots of brands. And we were working with the brand and we love to work on their brands, but we wanted also a creation. And we were failing at doing that.

So we said, okay, we are TV and digital. What do we have that the others don't have? And what we have is access to TV talent. But once you say that, you're going to do the same mistake as everyone has done before us.

You take a TV talent, you put him on her on YouTube and it fails because you try to do TV and YouTube. So we had this problem. And so that was a challenge. So we found a TV talent, our favorite that we love.

It's First in Boulash, the star of French to National Television. We do shiny flow entertainment with her on TV. It's also one of the boxes on Front3. And we met her and we tried to invent something for her.

And what we hate about the TV world is when TV has some despised and looks at YouTube like this, you know, like it's straight. And we wanted to fight this idea. And so we talked to her and we say, let's imagine something where someone that everyone knows from TV, respect and is curious of this world. So we took some of the YouTuber that were our favorites and we imagine a show where she invites them and she tries to find what is their talent, what is their story, what is so special about them.

Let's look at these people with respect and admiration because they have this success. They are talented. So that's the safe zone, a place where you get and you can tell what's on your heart and who you are and we will listen to you. It's very long for YouTube.

It's 15 minutes. And we wanted to make it kind of fast. So we produced only five of them. And we launched it this time in December.

And we were very scared because the young people from Art team told us it's never going to work because it's TV. So maybe we worked even more so that it's not TV and that's really a YouTube original production. And it was a hit with only five episodes. We are almost five million views, just on YouTube, 20 million views on Instagram and TikTok.

And everyone this summer was talking about it in the French digital world. And I have information for Maya, we are launching this into before the end of the year. We are almost in production. So it was amazing because from this we can build many other originals.

TV platform calling us like, oh, this show on YouTube, do you think it would fit on the platform? Of course it could. But now we have to talk with them to see if it's possible. If we can imagine a double diffusion YouTube plus a TV platform, I think that's the future.

But I have to convince them that it's a future. And we also have brands contacting us like we like the values of say zone the way you respect people. And for my company, that's the value we'd like to push. That's what our product are.

We also have this kind of look. So for us, it's like becoming our lucky show because it opens doors that we wanted to open but much sooner than what was imagined. And that's what magic was digital when it works. It can work very quickly.

And I bet you walked into the office and you were pretty happy when those numbers started to toss up a bit. Yes. And for the young, I mean, in our team, I love the debate in the digital team. Some people said, you know, I don't know.

And they said, I'm greatly working. Now I'm going to help you make it even more successful. Some people even apologize. And we're like, OK, it's OK.

I make mistake every day. I don't show our failure. But let's imagine things together. That's the spirit.

Often you have no idea what's going to work. It's really hard. So we've had some that we all thought was not going to work and that was a hit. And I was sure it was going to work.

It was not a question for me. Well, it was a big failure. It was interesting what you said earlier on about the youngest person in the office is often the one who only comes to digital first. It's got the big ideas.

So that's interesting. So coming back to you on to Seven Verses Wild, what the next steps then? You talked about the 3-V deal. You're also taking the format out to license.

Aren't you? You're pushing out with Quinter Studios. Does that? Yes.

So we're going to launch the season three with 3-V and on YouTube in Germany. But the next steps are to do it as international versions. Maybe it's you, the French flip. We must talk about it.

I love it. The shirt is perfect for it. I want to cut, by the way. Just for the record.

Of course. Then find the American version and all of that. So because that format works, we know how to produce it. We could even go to Panama or Canada to the same locations.

That's what other people do with other shows too. You can send the Germans in for two weeks, then you send the UK people in for two weeks and then you send the French people in for two weeks. So that would be the next steps. And that would be to do with Quinter.

So connect the two of us to get the management of the American founder. I went to elementary school with that guy. So we go way back. Right.

Okay. So there could be an idea of an international production hub. And so anybody that wants to talk to you about licensing the format, how do they do that? They ask you because you get the cut, obviously, you know?

Yeah, that was a stupid question. Okay. So have we got any questions? We've got a couple of minutes left.

We could talk for hours about brand-funded programming and how important brands are for this base, which we're not going to get time for. Are there any questions that we have in the room? I was very interested in the digital copyright thing. It was some like 10 years ago, I met an American company that was designing the tool of American stars based on parrotated and downloaded because for example, the star will give the pictures name and I carry that basically add apparently what they say to me.

I said to me, ask them to tell her where she was most downloaded in piracy world. So she said why let's have three dates in a city more than one day in another. Basically, it's what you did. Taking the consumer approach and understand although it's illegal or whatever, to understand it's an answer to a request with the demand from the law, we would say, in Italy.

So it's very smart and brave. Yeah, and I think one thing we haven't really talked about is data, which I guess is one of the huge advantages to digital platforms. When we claim content, I guess it's another lever of data. We have the content about our own content that we put out and then we also have content data about the content that we're claiming that users have uploaded and that we have the data on.

It is really amazing to have both because you have your controlled environment of your own content, but then you have, okay, wow, I wasn't expecting. Sometimes we don't even know how they found the stuff they're uploading. We can't even get it. It's on beta max.

We don't even know how they found these documentaries, but they're uploading them. People are watching them and it's a great source of actually user habits, audience habits that isn't controlled by a TV detective or even a digital detective putting it out. It's much more user-generated. So yeah, but I think probably we all have to be kind of nerds about data and spend time in looking at what's working and following trends.

And again, I would say that's just a huge advantage to working in a space that you want waiting for overnight, you want waiting for, et cetera, you're able to get real-time data on how much you've succeeded or how much you failed. And there's no S-fods who won't share the numbers with you. It's all about you know the numbers yourself. Guys, thank you so much.

I'm going to ask one very quick question of everybody. Bold predictions. In three years time, how will the content industry have changed? Be your first.

I believe in free. I think that's the most important thing. I think everything will be free for the viewers in three years time or like maybe not three years time at five years time. All the environments where you have walls and you have to pay for it.

It's going to be much more niche specific to a certain interest someone has. And I think free is the way to go. It's a very attractive price point, isn't it? Free.

Yeah. We will find out how to monetize all that. But I think for the audience, a lot more stuff will be free. Holly?

Yeah, I think I agree with that. So mine was going to be the kind of really long form and really, really short form dynamic, just getting stronger and stronger. So you were asking us earlier about YouTube and I was reading some stats about how now 98% of you get adults watching YouTube every month. And the average viewing session watch time on YouTube is 62 minutes of content.

And so bearing in mind that some of us probably only watch YouTube for 10 minutes, someone out there is watching it for three hours or five hours to make up for us. So I think that basically not engaging on digital platforms instead of television, basically. And then super short form, so 27% of our viewing on YouTube is now to YouTube shorts, which a lot of people don't even exist, but is now sort of something like 2 billion year to date views for us. People are probably watching YouTube main on their TV and YouTube shorts on the same time.

And so I think acknowledging that dynamic of long form and super short form having to coexist. But I would say that that all circles around that content is free and it's there and people are finding out on these platforms if not elsewhere. So I think that the TV industry is pivoting to how that influence of social is going to be a huge next chapter. We're finding us for finding it more and more difficult to get people to subscribe.

Olivier, same question. I really agree with what you said. I also hope and wish so I predict that there will be a change in the mindset of people. I hate the idea of cannibalization.

I believe in multi-platform. It's not because someone watches something on TikTok or on YouTube that is not going to watch it on a TV as well program or on a free TV. I think exactly the opposite. So I think we will enter a world where you will see about a photo on TikTok or on YouTube.

It will maybe discover an old-season of scripted or unscripted on YouTube and you will go to Netflix or my TF1 or another platform to have fresher episodes. So instead of fighting and make platforms, fight, you have to invent how they can combine to bring the more value possible. Because we are very business driven. We have to pay for the best production at the end of the day.

But I think you get more financing for your production if you understand that every platform has the right to be. And the mindset must be how you come by instead of how you fight your competitors. Dennis. Yeah.

And very boring, but I agree with all three of you guys. I think for sure I think we all have to deal with more advertisement maybe, but there will be also more creative and nice ways to grade those advertisements. So I think for the viewer it will be fine. He will deal with it.

And I also believe that I mean we are doing this now with FreeVient YouTube, that you can watch the same stuff on different platforms. I'm really sure. And to your point, our viewers when we announced the third season said, please don't short it. It can't be shorter than an hour.

So we want to watch it, watch it. So it's very boring, but I agree with all of you. Love you. That's a common sense system.

So these guys know what they're talking about. So it must be true. Be, Holly and Olivia Dennis, thank you so much for joining us. Really fantastic to speak with you all on the panel.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. That's all for this week's show.

As ever, I hope you enjoyed it. This week's telecast was edited by Ian Chambers and recorded in Rope. And sorry about the slightly groggy voice. That's her back to back near and MIPCOM 12th day trip for you.

Next week, we're previewing the Telecast Digital Content Forum, which takes place on November 9th at the BFI South Bank in London. By the way, tickets are still available and only from telecast.com forward slash events. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next week.

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