Episode 2: People Pleasing

SURPRISE! Episode 2 is dropping early! And it’s a doozy.If this episode on people pleasing isn’t relatable, we might be a little jelly. Like a lot of you, both of us grew up trying to make everyone around us happy at any cost. From not wanting to make others upset to trying a million different ways to make sure they kept liking us (ever try taping your allowance into a card so your best friend would keep playing with you?… No? Only Rowan, then?), we talk about it all in this episode.Have a listen, then drop a comment and let us know how people pleasing has impacted your life. We’d also love to hear what you’ve done, if anything, to start putting yourself first instead of others.Things we mentioned in the podcastRowan’s book One Sunny AfternoonWe Can Do Hard Things Podcast episode - How do we identify our real needs and finally get them met?Transcript (AI-generated and might have errors)[00:00:00] Lara: That was a huge aha moment for me was when I thought to myself, why would everybody like me when I don't like everyone?[00:00:08] Rowan: Yeah. You said that to me once. You were the first person to say that to me.When you said it, I thought about it for like 572 hours.[00:00:41] Rowan: Hello everyone and welcome to unboxing it. I am Rowan.[00:00:46] Lara: And I'm Lara.[00:00:48] Rowan: And today we are talking about people pleasing and I know a lot of you will be able to relate to that.I certainly can relate to that. What about you, Lara?[00:00:58] Lara: Uh, yeah. I've spent most of my life trying really hard to do it.[00:01:03] Rowan: I just want everyone to like me,[00:01:05] Lara: right. What?[00:01:07] Rowan: What's so wrong with that? Other than the fact that it can destroy you mentally, emotionally, and physically and probably spiritually.[00:01:14] Lara: Yeah. It's so much work to try to get everybody to like you all of the time, and on the other side, it's so crushing if you feel like you haven't succeeded.It's just so much work. Well, because you, you're, you're[00:01:28] Rowan: putting all this effort in. let's talk about what people pleasing is. First of all. How, how would you define people pleasing , if someone was to ask you, what does that even mean?[00:01:38] Lara: Well, it's a lot of things, but the first thing I think is it's, it's really, to me, the biggest thing is it's nobody being mad at me or nobody being like, not mad, but also not unhappy with me.Really, a lot of it is about my fear. I also do like to keep people happy and like make them content and make them feel happy. But there is a huge part of it for me that's about the fear of how they're gonna think about me and whether or not conflict is gonna come up.[00:02:07] Rowan: Disappointment.I think disappointment is a huge one for me. Like, don't let anyone down. Don't let anyone down. Right. And, and just the idea that I might do something that hurts someone or makes them feel bad or makes them feel like I don't care about them. I mean, it's just, that could be all encompassing.But I, I think, you know, if I were to describe people pleasing, it's everything you said. And then you also said something really important there, which was. Of course I like to make people feel happy. I like to do nice things for people, right? And, and this is where the line is drawn between something that is, a more typical human experience , and a healthy one, and something that becomes problematic or disorderly.And, I'll use the example of, let's do anxiety. There's a difference between having, anxiety, being anxious sometimes that's a very normal thing to feel. we all, you know, anxiety can, drive us. It can alert us to problems, it can keep us safe. But when it goes off the rails and it's all encompassing and it really interferes with our day-to-day lives, that is when it becomes a disorder.We can say that about a lot of different things. Feeling down versus feeling, you know, versus actually being depressed and, you know, even something like, A DHD, we can think about a DHD and how, extreme that can be and how much it can get in the way. But a lot of people feel distracted sometimes, or, you know, have some energy to burn or something, right?and, and I think people pleasing is the same thing where, yeah, of course we wanna do nice things for the people we care about. Of course we want to be decent human beings, even to strangers. Like we just wanna be part of this fabric of society. But when it becomes this, All encompassing need to get everyone to like you and to never, ever let anyone down or make them angry, or you're gonna fall apart.That's the problem. And unfortunately, a lot of us live with it.[00:04:10] Lara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's, comes up constantly, right? If you are afraid of letting people down, if you are afraid of doing something wrong, if you're. Like when it becomes that fear, it stops you from even trying some of the things you might do otherwise, right?Like how, what are all the things that we stop in our lives because we already have decided we can't make people happy or that we've sacrificed our own happiness for other people, which is certainly something, right? If anybody's going to have to be unhappy in this situation, it'll be me, is something I have thought many times.[00:04:49] Rowan: Ugh, you said that and it was like a punch in the gut. I think we also need to address something really important, and it's gonna come up a couple of times, I think, in this episode. I think that women and people who were raised as girls and that would include me. I was raised as a girl prior to transitioning.I lived as a woman. We are hyper conditioned to not put ourselves first, to look to other people, to make decisions for us, to get permission to live our truth, to get permission to do what we might really want to be doing inside. And you actually sent me, A podcast and said, you have to listen to this story, so why don't you tell me a little bit about that.[00:05:39] Lara: Yeah. So I often listen to the week and do Hard Things podcast, and there was an episode where, Glennon Doyle is telling a story about how she went into her basement and there were a bunch of teenagers down there, right? So. Of all genders, or at least boys and girls. And she asked them if they wanted anything to eat and most of the boys said, yep.And the girls all looked at one another to see what the other was gonna say. And then she said, and then it seemed like they, without talking to one another, somehow had appointed a spokesperson to say they were fine. Yeah, and it was just a really, good example of how girls tend to be unconsciously a lot of the time.societally taught to not take up too much space to not be a bother, to not need things and to not actually ask themselves if they need a thing, but to let other people decide for them so that they're not, again, taking up too much space or making the wrong decision,[00:06:47] Rowan: and being taught that so young that you all just instinctively know to look at each other and without saying anything collectively decide not to be trouble.Mm-hmm. it is, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking, and this is a, an issue around the world. I've written two memoirs and, and my second memoir, one sunny afternoon, I actually have an entire chapter on people pleasing, and I did a lot of research for this chapter, because.consider myself a recovering people pleaser, but when I say a recovering people pleaser, I, I say that , there are relapses too where when I'm feeling particularly vulnerable, when I'm being triggered by something, because I do have a complex form of PTSD, when any of those things happen, I will fall back to my previous behaviors very strongly.Put other people first. and one of the things that I learned anyway , in this chapter, and I'm gonna read a little bit of it in a minute, is the research shows that. All around the world. if you divide, and we know that, you know, like we're talking men and women here and, and I don't want to exclude anybody who doesn't identify as a man or a woman, but this study , was done, using men and women as examples and contrasting them against each other.57% of volunteering worldwide is done by women, and that is. If you sort of look at every country all over the world, and that figure is much higher when it comes to, healthcare, volunteering, so taking care of sick people, taking care of, of people with disabilities, taking care of anything along those lines that involves volunteering.The healthcare sector is higher and that is more taxing, I would say, than a lot of other types of volunteering in so many ways. The other thing that I learned, and I tried to find this study, and if I do end up finding the actual study again, we'll put it in the show notes. so you're just gonna have to trust me for now.Just, just believe me. I did my own research, I swear. but I read this really interesting study where. They were talking about how women in office environments take on more unpaid work, more volunteer type work in the office setting, and that would be things like hosting someone's baby shower, retirement party, doing the office, holiday party, any of those things.Women are looked to first to do it and are more likely to do it. And they're more likely to take on. It's not that men are not volunteering to do those things, to do some things, but the things that men tend to volunteer to do in an office setting, in a career setting are more likely to help their careers.they would look good on a resume. They would look good when they're going to ask for a raise. And the stuff that women are choosing to do overall, it's not bad. And women are still seen, despite all of that, less upward mobility and less money overall, despite contributing more in those ways to make the culture at the workplace better.So this is a systematic problem. It it's big.[00:10:14] Lara: Yeah. First it reminded me that my husband, many years ago, probably like. Close to 20 bought me a fridge magnet that said, stop me before I volunteer again.[00:10:25] Rowan: Ouch.[00:10:26] Lara: and when I did work in a corporate setting, I was the one who's like, I know we'll do a banana bread baking competition.And it was really like, it's always been, or like I would do like crafts in the lunchroom, which all sounds like, but like it was community building, right? Like people. felt more connected. I loved doing things that helped everybody feel connected and happy and like there was a little bit of more joy.But you're right, it's not the volunteering that would've gotten me a raise.[00:10:57] Rowan: And it could also hinder your ability to do work that. Could help you get a raise. and believe me, I'm, I'm not trying to be like rah rah capitalism here. That's not what I'm trying to do. It's just, this is what we're seeing everywhere and I think it is a really important role.I think women are truly the fabric of society. If it were not for women, we would not have nearly as much connection and community in our society. So it is a very important job, but it's also very underappreciated. And we don't take into consideration the toll that it can take on someone. I was diagnosed, it was, it was a little while back with burnout, but it wasn't work burnout, it was caregiver burnout.And again, I, you know, I wanted, I wanna say I'm a man, but I have a lot of those behaviors. That make it so that I don't automatically put myself first. I, I, I wish that I'd just come with testosterone, honestly, which I just, you know, started taking testosterone and suddenly I'm like, yeah, yeah. Hey babe, could you get me a beer?I'm just going to watch the game. None of that felt right to say, by the way, that everything I just said just felt wrong. but there is caregiver burnout. If you Google caregiver burnout, you're going to see a lot of references to people who work in healthcare. So they're caring for people and that act of caring, as we we mentioned before in, healthcare volunteering.But even if it's your job, regardless when you are dealing with sick people and disabled people and day after day and working long hours and giving so much of yourself. It does create burnout, but we forget. That burnout can also happen when you are a parent who is doing the bulk of the parenting. If you have children with some additional challenges, and you are constantly putting yourself last because you are constantly putting their needs first.Which, I mean, there's a whole conversation to be had about parenting and the importance of that and the priorities. And I mean, I have five kids myself, so I, I get it. But, you know, even just, you know, caring for aging parents. just giving and giving and giving and giving and constantly giving.maybe, maybe you have a partner who you know is dealing with a substance use disorder or chronic depression, and you are giving and giving and giving and it will wear you down it over time. That takes a toll on anyone. I don't care how resilient someone is. Over time it will, and the recovery time for that burnout is, months, sometimes years.Took me a really long time to come back. And from that time on, I really started to think about what I needed and to prioritize myself more. It's hard though when. You start to think there's this terrible word. There's terrible. I'm gonna say this word to you, Lara, and I think your face is going to change when I say it.I didn't wanna be selfish. Selfish. That's a dirty word, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. If, if somebody calls you selfish, if somebody says you are being selfish, how does that make you feel inside?[00:14:23] Lara: I mean, bad, right? Like, I, I don't even know. like I can't verbalize why, I mean, I guess I can, it's like, oh, it's important to care for others.in fact, I was listening to something that was talking about how the word selfless is revered, but like, think about what that word is, selfless. Like, let's try to get rid of ourselves. Only think about other people and that is revered. So of course we think selfish is bad and selfless is how we should be, and that is not taking care of ourselves.And that means that we are not important. It means that we don't learn to think of ourselves as important, or to prioritize ourselves and that we are. Really doing something that is radical When we say, you know what, I can be a bit selfish.[00:15:15] Rowan: Ooh, see, I can be a bit selfish. You said that. And even though I am in full agreement, I got this little like hit inside my stomach and my gut, I was like, oh no, I can't[00:15:26] Lara: Now find another word that means that.[00:15:29] Rowan: I mean, even say something like self-centered, self-centered is a terrible, term to use against somebody, right? Because you are using it against them. Mm-hmm. self-serving, self anything, self anything is, you know, the, the minute that you prioritize self, a lot of people will see that as being bad, but.Taking care of ourselves is an act of selflessness in its own way. Because by taking care of me and making sure that I have all my needs met, some of my wants met, that I'm in the best shape that I can be in every way, I can better serve the people around me as well.Because we are communal animals.I mean, there's, I don't think there's any getting around that and this idea of it having to be black and white, like, either I don't care about myself at all, or I don't care about anyone else at all. That doesn't make sense. There there is, there's a really nice, nuanced gray area in there, and I'm forever trying to live inside of it.But, but it's hard too, right? Because a lot of my childhood, trauma is what fueled my people pleasing. And I think actually I was gonna do this anyway. I'm going to read like about a page and a half. Of, my chapter on people pleasing because I found this when I was making notes for the show and I was like, I'm looking up what everyone else has said about people pleasing and forgetting that I wrote an entire chapter about it that has been published.So maybe I should look at that too and see if I had anything interesting to say. Mm-hmm. And I'm by far not an expert on the subject, but I do think that talking about. Childhood and what that, how fundamentally that shapes us because our experiences back then are the foundation of all of our experiences moving forward unless we actively recognize it and work to unlearn and change it.So. I'm gonna talk a little bit about what school was like for me growing up. This is just one example of the ways that I became a people pleaser, And, I was telling you earlier that normally I. Having done a couple of audio books, you're supposed to read these things on, you know, an iPad or something, but, I could not find my iPad this morning.So I am reading this from paper. So you're actually going to hear the pages turning, which is either going to be the best thing ever or sound really unprofessional, whatever. Anyway, you know what? I'm not here to make you happy. Ooh, did you wa Whoa.[00:18:13] Lara: Exactly.[00:18:14] Rowan: There we go. There we go. Okay, here we go. From one sunny afternoon, like many people, and for many reasons, I grew up a people pleaser.When my elementary school friend Jasmine, not her real name by the way, wanted to stop hanging out with me because my lack of popularity was limiting her social options, I should have told her to get lost, knowing I deserved better. Instead, I made her a card more than once, wrote her a pleading note about how much she meant to me.Taped coins to the inside of it in a desperate attempt to get her to change her mind. If I wasn't good enough for her, maybe money was, I didn't know how my days would be without her, and I didn't wanna find out. I suspected I would feel quite alone and be open to even more bullying than I already was.As long as she valued me, I had value because she believed I did. If she were to end the friendship, which she eventually did, I would lose my worth.I. My reaction to kids who chronically bullied me wasn't to stay as far away from them as possible, but rather to try to earn their friendship. I would bring the other 10 year old's little gifts like trading cards and rare marbles, and watch as they laughed at how pathetic I must have seemed to them.Sometimes they would almost appear to be reconsidering their view of me. They would chat about hanging out with me next recess, or maybe hint that I could go to the party they were throwing, that half the class was already invited to. These were exciting times. When I clung to hope like a well-loved baby blanket.I imagined my life would change for the better. With their acceptance, I would be safer. That's a key word here. Safer and school would be a place I no longer dreaded. Unfortunately, my hopes were always dashed. Those invitations to recess, hangouts and parties never came. No matter what I did, the kids who were mean to me continued to be mean.I never thought that the other kids were the problem, that their meanness and pettiness were issues that had nothing to do with me. I was convinced I was the issue. I wasn't trying hard enough. I wasn't good enough at figuring out what they needed. I had to do more to earn their acceptance because I wasn't innately likable, I mused..I had to be generous until they gave me a chance and discovered I wasn't so bad after all. Not only gave them little trinkets, but also laughed at their bad jokes. Let them believe they had all the answers, even when I knew they were wrong and allowed them to jump ahead of me in line whenever the teacher wasn't looking, they took full advantage.Why wouldn't they? I was a doormat who readily gave them somewhere to wipe their feet. I would dream about the day when the kids at school would finally figure out how wrong they had been about me this entire time and would accept me as one of them. At the very least, view me as someone worthy of marginal respect and not a punch in the face That day never came.Grade school was a time when I effectively paid someone to be my friend and gave stuff to kids who were horrendous to me. Every day I handed a piece of myself to people who didn't deserve it. I longed for acceptance so much that I was willing to do just about anything for it. If there was an award for people pleasing, I would have won it.No doubt. Probably given it to someone else.[00:21:31] Lara: Hmm.[00:21:32] Rowan: And that's how I grew up. I don't know how much of that was relatable, but you know, that is what I taught myself. That is what I decided was the lesson back then.[00:21:41] Lara: Yeah. I think a lot of us did. And it's, it's the piece where we get our value from other people.It's the part. Where we want so desperately to be seen and liked that that is more important than whether or not we like the other person. Right. That was a huge aha moment for me was when I thought to myself, why would everybody like me when I don't like everyone?[00:22:12] Rowan: Yeah. You said that to me once. You were the first person to say that to me.When you said it, I thought about it for like 572 hours.That's really profound. Like it is true, right? Like we work so hard trying to make these people happy. We want them to like us, but like, did I want to actually be friends with any of these bullies? No. They were miserable people. I wanted nothing to do with them. We didn't share the same values, but. I think what happens sometimes when we are young for whatever reason, if it is we're being bullied, if we're coming from an abusive household, if there's anything going on like that, especially the key becomes safety and there's safety in being everyone's friend and being useful to others.[00:23:02] Lara: And being wanted so that I feel like that is one that I had, right. When I look back at a lot of my behaviors in high school, in elementary school and into my twenties, the goal was more to be wanted than for me to find something that I wanted and hope it worked out. Like it was more just like I just wanted to be wanted.[00:23:24] Rowan: Yeah. and, and the fear of abandonment, right? The fear of just being alone. as you know, I said as much in the book where, even having one person who clearly was not a good fit for me, who would spend time for me, offered me some protection, some safety, some validation.if she were to go and she did eventually go. No matter how much money I tried to bribe her with, you know, it, it opened me up to, being more targeted and I felt worse about myself just overall because what does it mean about myself if nobody wants to spend time with me? Mm-hmm. And that, that's hard.That's a, that's a hard one. But, I think a lot of us have felt that way at one point or another. I think there are probably some people listening right now who are still stuck there to some degree. and I feel for you because I, as I said, I'm a recovering people pleaser, but it doesn't mean I don't still people please, from time to time.[00:24:25] Rowan: so I, I really empathize. But, but maybe we could talk a little bit about what happens, When we start to heal and we start to put ourselves first.[00:24:37] Lara: Yeah. I think see, , because most of us who are people pleasers. Don't think that we shouldn't be, right? Like we think, yeah, like this is what I should be doing.This is the right way to be in the world. When I do this, I'm going to get the results that I want. Like we think we're doing the right thing. We don't think that we are doing something that is actually potentially harmful to We don't realize that. It might even be[00:25:06] Rowan: like, like we tie it to our identities.Like I think I actually tied it straight to my identity like that. Well, that's being nice to people and doing things for people is just part of who I am.[00:25:15] Lara: Yeah. It's a good thing. Like it's a nice thing. Yeah. Like stop making it seem like it's not a good thing. We need people who do that in the world.Yeah, you're, saying this and I am, I really am having a visceral reaction. 'cause I'm like, it's like it's coming from inside my head.And, and so part of this I think is realizing that some of the things we're taught to believe, I mean, so many of the things that we're taught to believe, that's the stuff that I talk about a lot in my book.Like all of the things we were taught to believe are true Almost none of them are true, but they teach us that because it serves. Capitalism, the patriarchy, right? Yep. The more that we are convinced that we should be nice all the time, and not fighting back and not questioning what they say, the better off they are.And there's a little bit of that that's true here. It carries through into like, don't be full of yourself. Don't brag, don't tell everybody how great you are. Like we don't like that. And yet. I challenge you to think of a time that you haven't wanted someone, if you're hiring them, if you're working with them to not confidently believe that they're good at something, right?Like confidence is something that we like in people when we see it. Like not like. Fake confidence, right? Like if they're making it up and like all they are is bluster, like that's different. But if I am good at something and I confidently tell you that I'm good at something, most people like that and respect it.But we are told not to be bragging, not to be telling people how great we are, not to be too full of yourself. So that's one of the many things that we are taught that conflicts right? Like this is the thing we're gonna tell you. We actually really like this thing and they're conflicting. So of course we think we shouldn't do all these things that might make people unhappy, might make people uncomfortable, might make people think we're selfish.And yet the people who do get ahead who are successful aren't really afraid of putting that forward.[00:27:25] Rowan: Yeah, exactly that. I think that there is a big difference. And when I realized this, it was huge for me. There's a big difference between confidence and arrogance. Mm-hmm. So confidence just comes from self.we had that when we were born once we started to develop a sense of self, at least, I challenge you to find a young child who is not confident because unless they have grown up in a really, really oppressive situation. They do have confidence. That's how they are trying new things and singing as they skip down the street and, you know, and like loudly declaring their joy about something.Or you know, look at me, mommy, look at me. And like, you know this, it's a beautiful quality that does not require any comparison to others. It is not a competition. It is just, this is who I am. I am confident in myself and my abilities. Arrogance is completely different and it's so off-putting. I find confidence to be one, one of the most attractive qualities in a human being.I find arrogance to be one of the least attractive qualities and arrogance has everything to do with comparison. if I'm arrogant, I'm now comparing myself to you and you, and you, and you and you. So if. If I wanna feel good about myself as an arrogant person, I have to feel superior to you. I have to find something about you that is less than something about myself.That is a losing game. And I think sometimes people pleasers think I either have to be completely selfless and small and kind of invisible and only serve others, or I'm going to be this arrogant SOB, right? Like I don't think sometimes we realize that there is this really beautiful in-between state of having that innate wonderful confidence.Still wanting to do wonderful things for people. Like my partner just had her 50th birthday and I spent a month planning a dance party for her,, with other people in our lives. But I also planned an entire scavenger hunt day for her, where I took her all around the city of Toronto and all, a bunch of her favorite places.And I surprised her with people from her life, various parts of her life who would meet her with her next clue. So she had this like amazing race type thing and like. You know, I loved doing that. Was I exhausted? Yes. Was it stressful? Yes. Seeing the joy on her face and being able to be there as she experienced all of that, that meant more to me than I can tell you right now.and there's nothing wrong with doing that. Also feeling confident in my abilities and also feeling like I can put myself first also feeling like, you know, did I give myself a full day of rest after that and just put my feet up and I didn't cook and I didn't clean, I didn't do anything the next day.Yeah, you bet I did. Absolutely. You know, I mean, and that's okay. Whereas I think the before version of me would have not stopped. It would've been like, oh, well now I have to do this because what if I don't clean up enough? And what if I don't do this enough? And what if there's no dinner made tonight? And what if I don't?No, that's all right. It's okay. And that's that beautiful, , that's that in-between flow. If I could just have that all the time, I would be unstoppable.[00:30:53] Lara: Yeah. Well, there's a few things. One is, first of all, all that stuff, it comes back up no matter how much. We learn new things, it's okay if it comes back up.And I, I'm sure other people listening have this happen where you're like, why is this coming up again? I totally dealt with it. and so I just wanna remind everybody the key is that you see it and notice it faster and can come back from it without just falling into it again. Like, it's fine. We are all gonna get caught back up and stuff again.and the other thing is the people pleasing tendency that you've never, ever, ever done enough is part of it, right? Like you're, if you're constantly striving to have reached the goal of success, but there is no measure of success, then you're never having done enough. It's never enough. And sowhat I hope people take from this conversation is realizing that you can still be a kind person. You can still do really nice things for people, but you can also still look for ways to find value in yourself without needing somebody else to validate you. That you don't need to do everything everybody wants you to do to be a good and kind person, You don't need to have everybody like you because you don't like everybody. Like I think that is a big one. When I think about some of the people whose life views and values are different than mine, I don't like them, right? Like I don't. Why would they like me? Like for the same reasons, if I completely believe different things than them, of course they're not gonna like me.Do I wish that they would believe what I believe. Of course I do. They would also like me to believe what they believe. it's how it goes. And so, there's a whole other thing around perfection and maybe we'll do an episode on that, which I wrote about in my book. Where again, you can't do all the things for everybody because we're all different.So whatever we end up doing isn't going to please everybody.[00:32:48] Rowan: And this is also a big thing that I have to remind myself of all the time. I don't have any control over what other people think of me or my actions or how they might react to anything because I am not them. You know,And like, look at all the things that Rowan does. What a man, what an amazing man. I, you know, it doesn't matter. It's the same reason you can post artwork online that you did, and everyone's reaction to that artwork will be different. Some people will absolutely love it. Some people will absolutely hate it.It's not for them at all. Some people will think you chose wonderful colors, and some people will think that those colors don't go together at all, and they're not at all their taste or style, right? I mean, it's just you cannot predict how your actions, , unless they're, you know, really harmful actions are going to impact other people.So why try? just try to show up these days as the best version of myself and give what I am capable of giving without running dry , of all of the time and energy and care that I have. So, you know, I need to save some for myself. And whatever happens from that, happens from that. And. This sounds like a perfect utopian.Again, I really wish I did it every single day, but I would say I probably do it about 85, 90% of the time. Now, you know what? Considering that I used to tape coins into a card for a friend, I would say I'm doing pretty well. Good job, Rowan.[00:34:26] Lara: Good job, Rowan. I. Agree.[00:34:30] Rowan: This has been a great conversation.[00:34:31] Lara: It has.[00:34:32] Rowan: Yeah. I, I just wanna make sure you're happy with me. Are you happy with me?[00:34:36] Lara: Oh, yeah. But does it matter?[00:34:39] Rowan: It doesn't actually. It's funny. As I was on my way to record this podcast, I said to my partner, yeah, we're recording one on people pleasing in about 10 minutes. And she said, oh, that's wonderful. Hey, by the way, could you help me with a couple things first?[00:34:51] Lara: huh.[00:34:52] Rowan: And I almost said, yeah, sure, what do you need? And then I realized she was really trying to get me. I was like, oh, you're feisty. That's funny. Anyway. And I said, no, I can't. I have to make a coffee before I go do this. See, we all grow as people, everybody. We all grow as people.[00:35:08] Lara: We're learning.I'm like, we're doing, and like, I think again. Just as we wrap this up, like how well we learn to not be a people pleaser is not the goal here, right? Because then you're like, ah, I am like now I'm failing at this too, right? Like it's just like small steps.[00:35:26] Rowan: It's okay to be gentle with yourself. You're the only you there is in the whole world.You know? You're the only you that is and the only you that will ever be. So my goodness. Treat yourself like a precious. A little diamond and let yourself shine, and then also tuck yourself away in a little bag sometimes. And you know, just, I don't know why they do that with diamonds, but like, just go do that and just go hide out sometimes when you need that.Anyway, thank you for joining us today. Once again, I am Rowan.[00:35:52] Lara: And I'm Lara and I will say, if you like this podcast and it pleased you, please go and tell everybody about that too.[00:36:01] Rowan: Yes, please. Like it. Maybe subscribe. Well, that feels weird to say at the end of this one, but anyway, we do really, really appreciate your support. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe