Okay, I'm Paige Albanian, editorial director of formats, and this is the Daily Greek podcast. Today, I have the honor of being joined by Los Angeles-based artist Claire Salvo, Troyta IO, head of digital entertainment, SAC Jacobs, and Troyta head of new business development, Kevin Artari. Welcome, everybody. Hi, Paige.
Hi, Paige. It is my pleasure. So today, we are going to discuss art, and that's not something I've really discussed on this podcast before, unless you consider entertainment marketing to the art, which in many cases I do. So we're going to discuss art in conjunction with NFTs, which is something that Troyta's gotten really into this year or this past year.
So over the holidays, this is what sparked this idea for this conversation. It's over the holidays, Troyka sent a holiday card and gift to clients of an NFT, and that NFT was a piece of art that was created by Claire. So Zach, I'm going to let you start us off by sort of just telling us how that whole project was a catalyst for it. Why did you guys want to try it out and how did you connect with Claire?
Gotcha. Thank you, Paige. I'm excited to be here talking with you all today. The genesis for the holiday card, NFT idea was really dependent.
One, demonstrate this new technology that Troyka brought in house and two show clients just how easy web three and NFTs can be your consumers, or client base, if they're properly in partnership with the right team. So as far as why or how we got connected to Claire, lucky enough to have a mutual friend in common that both being from the East Coast, we got classic Transplant Story that you should meet my friend. But then she started to report with her, got very excited about the type of work she was doing specifically. These dollar bill collabs, she does with either with Board API club, but as well as with some fun celebrity images or just fun images, started a relationship.
And I think one of the really things about being an LA based company is that we get to meet and interact with these artists. And then as different projects arise, we can usually call on them and see if it's something to be interested in. And thankfully, in this case, there's something Claire was really interested in doing. And I won't speak for her, but I remember saying working with a corporation on a giveaway like this isn't naturally an artist's first choice for a project, let's say, but that the way in which Kevin and the team kind of let it lend itself to the web three ethos of what everyone's trying to build and work towards.
So just for definition sake, tell us what web three is. Web three is being the web three term is what people are crowning this new expansion into blockchain. Really, it's about, you know, I think the way people are put it is where you can own your own content where, you know, web one was the first iteration of the internet and the ability to see data using email being sent around the world instantly, web two is kind of the rise of the apps and the social media platforms where you can own your network, so to speak. And now what this next iteration or next phase of the internet is really this idea of like, you know, owning content in a, you know, authentic transparent way.
Okay, and then Kevin, do you want to add anything there since you were there on a check aside too? When we acquired redeem and then from Fraca IO about a year ago now, we started having a lot of meetings with clients and you know, there was a lot of buzz about NFTs and a lot of confusion about it at the same time, right? I think what you saw in the headlines was these multi-million dollar deals for, you know, an LA Times article or a meme, you know, just the really sensational things. And there was confusion about, you know, the complexity of how you actually go about purchasing or owning an NFT, setting up a wallet.
So what we were trying to do was, first of all, give clients and friends of the company some enjoyment of being able to participate in that world and the buzz and the newness and owning an NFT and also demystify the process while we did it. So we were able to kind of show them hands-on how easy it really is. So it gave people a lot better understanding of what it is, how it works and kind of made sense of everything that's going on in the news all around us now. And then luckily, you know, there was just a great component to it with player coming into the picture and then with the charitable component of it too.
So it all kind of really came together and worked out nicely. Yeah, that's a good point. I didn't think about it as being a good way to sort of show and tell people how NFTs work, but that makes a lot of sense that it did serve that purpose too. All right, so Claire, now we're going to dive into it with you.
But do you mind, hopefully I can put this picture in the post, I'm not entirely sure I can do that, but can you describe that piece of art that you guys ended up sending out? Sure, so when Troika came to me and was telling me about the idea to do a fractionalized holiday card, we, something we agreed on immediately and something that I felt really strongly about was that whatever that image was, shouldn't depict any kind of religious symbolism associated with the holiday. I wanted it to be pretty neutral and something that everybody could feel like they connect to regardless of their religious background. So a disco ball was kind of the first thing I thought about.
It feels evergreen, you know, but like particularly resonant around the years and the holidays as a way to symbolize kind of celebrations. When I thought of a disco ball, the first thing I thought of was this image of it just sitting on the ground casting this long shadow. So that's what I tried to achieve. I borrowed a neighbor's disco ball and being put around with some positioning and photographed it and it just tried to make the vision in my head kind of come to life in the best way I could with the tools that I had.
Because we all have a disco ball sitting in our basement, basically. I'm going to back you up a little because I was just looking at your bio and it says that you got your bachelor's of science and communications from NYU, which doesn't necessarily seem like a natural launching pad for an artistic career. So how did you end up as an artist? And actually as an artist, he's making a living being an artist, which I feel like is not so common.
So I've been drawing my entire life from, you know, my parents have stuff saved from when I was like two or three years old and I drew all throughout elementary and middle and high school and I had some really incredible art teachers that I give a lot of credit to for, you know, seeing my interest and my ability and really fostering it and investing in it. My parents are also really, really supportive and when it came time to choose a college, I considered art school briefly but felt like being kind of forced to sit down and make art would just take the passion out of it for me, which I don't know if that would have been true, but that's how I felt at the time. So I ended up just with a degree in communications, just something that felt relevant and like generally applicable to any field I would potentially go into. I ended up actually working in music for a long time, which was also relevant to a degree in communications, not that your degree dictates in any way what you do with your adult life, you know, unless you're on like a pre-net track or something.
So yeah, I worked in music for a long time and then ended up leaving my music career behind to refocus on fine art in about in 2016. I did that and it definitely took some time to get my feet on the ground in terms of making a living from it. Like full transparency, it's been very challenging until maybe five months ago when I got into NFTs when things really felt like they started to click. I looked on your website at a bunch of your art and you definitely sort of dabble in several different styles.
How would you describe your art in your artistic approach? I like to make art that reflects pop culture and kind of current conversations, current events, things that people are talking about and things that are happening and also things that I can connect to personally. So the first series I did when I decided to refocus on art was a series about refugee children who were resettling in my hometown in Pennsylvania where I was actually living at the time and it was just a really like a snapshot in time when the election was happening and I was, you know, had gone from New York City back to this place that was so conservative and homogenous but at the same time was helping to rehouse and settle thousands of refugees from around the world. So it seemed like a really interesting place to be at that specific moment in time.
So that was my series then and I did a series a few years later surrounding the MeToo movement kind of drawing from a personal experience that I had as a teenager. I would say that in terms of theme that's where my work tends to focus and I do alternate between a bunch of different styles but I usually come back to some some expression of hyperrealism. Yeah we're going to talk a little bit about those portraits a little bit. So you already kind of touched on this but so you said five months ago the introduction of NFTs into your career have changed things for you and this is actually kind of what I was interested in terms of this topic too because I do feel like NFTs really have this ability to open up art to a new marketplace and make it something that people can build careers around but what have NFTs meant to your career as not even working in them for a little bit?
I knew from the week that I'm into my Genesis collection which means the week that I released my first collection of NFTs that it was it had the potential to change my life that was clear to me really really quickly. It has re-lit my creative flame and then I'm discovering a lot of new artists and I'm seeing a lot of new ways to use the blockchain and new creative ways to release art and find new audiences and that's really exciting and it has also changed my life in material ways. Yeah you know it's allowed me to finally have a dedicated art studio which is something I've wanted since I pivoted to art five years ago and just never never been able to do. My life has changed more in five months in this space than it did in the five previous years.
Wow so and then when you this might be a stupid question but when you are making art are you doing it like let's say you're doing like a pen and ink sketch or something with you know with the dollar bills you're creating it actually basically you're not creating the art digitally you're creating it and then converting it to digital to NFT or is it actually being created digitally? No everything I do is physical it's tactile and kind of analog either with a pen and paper with a paintbrush and a dollar bill or a paintbrush and then I'll have it you know professionally scanned and digitized. Okay and then I don't know how connected you are to other artists and community but are you finding that NFTs are having that effect across the artistic community? Yeah from what I've seen you know people I know personally it's it's had very similar effects in that they you know for years they were maybe either doing or kind of like in-house at a maybe a design agency or a larger media company or you know freelance but just really really struggling to make ends meet and since getting started NFTs and selling their own original work they've been able to leave those corporate jobs or just sustain themselves in a way that's a lot more comfortable than they have been before.
Yeah definitely. And then also have you found that I mean how this is because I don't know that much about art before if you are an artist and you're selling a piece of art is that always sort of a gallery relationship? What is the what was the previous way to distribute art if you weren't doing it over something like NFTs are watching? There are a few different ways and I think the most kind of traditional and maybe time-tested way is through a gallery or multiple galleries I've never worked with a gallery I don't have any relationships with official relationships with galleries I'm not trying to anybody I've always kind of felt like I exist kind of on the periphery of the art world and I've not really had a great interest in ingratiating myself into that kind of art world of galleries and galleries and curators and I've never felt like it's particularly welcoming or that my the type of art that I make would be of interest to people like that so I've kind of always done it my own way which has just been through you know like direct a consumer basically like just through Instagram through social media through friends of friends and I've seen other artists become hugely successful that way like CJ Henry doesn't have a gallery affiliation and she she does incredible work and puts on these massive exhibitions that are completely self-funded which she's been able to do because she sells a large volume of work but she also exists outside of the that kind of traditional art world yeah that's a good point though because that's just another area that's gotten totally disrupted then and that people are yeah because artists are able to go dark to consumer that's interesting that's not to say galleries don't provide value they they have amazing networks of buyers and you know people that I wouldn't have access to and when you know when they put on a show it's beautifully lit they they have a reception they do all the marketing like there is there's obviously value there but I think it's getting a little harder to define what that value is when we have access to the kind of technology that we do yeah yeah definitely I mean I think it's very at least it's good to have options all right so you mentioned this a little bit before that I believe what you were mentioning was the Miui project which is the one with the portraits so I was wondering if you could just talk about that what the genesis of that was and what your intention was behind that project Miui is a series of portraits there are nine of them and the idea for that project came out of the you know the Miui movement online although I'll say that the seed had been planted a decade before that when I had my own me or me to experience and kind of been I spent a long time thinking about how I could turn that experience into something positive for other people when the Miui movement was happening I felt like that that was the right time so I basically put out a casting call asking for women who were survivors of sexual assault or sexual violence to reach out to me for an art series that I was doing and the first thing I did when they would reach out I share my own story so that it was hopefully immediately clear that we we had that in common that kind of shared I guess opposed like trauma bonding but I didn't want them to feel like they were confiding in me without knowing my own story or who I was or what my intentions were so basically yeah so I had them send me a portrait like a selfie you know I asked them to do it in natural light and head on so there would be some consistency and then I drew those portraits in stippling which is like a series of dots yes they're all coming off and then I had them also send a version of their story that they would be comfortable with sharing I basically printed off those stories and they lived next to the art pieces when they were exhibited and it was important to me that the stories came from them and that they weren't being filtered through me for some of the women who took part in the series it was their first time talking publicly about their experiences so to be trusted to be like the vehicle to share those stories was not something I took lightly and then when did you do this project I started the work in 2018 or maybe towards the end of 2017 I was working on the portraits for about a year and a half and then I exhibited them in the summer of 2019 in Brooklyn and in LA and do you think I mean so that's been a couple years now do you is that something that you think you would do more of or do you feel like that project is complete now I think that project is finished but it's as a you know as a subject and a topic it's it's ever definitely a part of my own story yeah and something obviously that will probably never go away it's something I would consider revisiting but I don't know what format would take I'll end put a link up on the post so people can go check those out all right and then you kind of dropped this name before but I wanted to get into it a little because when I was writing about this I was like what is this so the um board eighth yacht club which is a hilarious name what is that and how did you become involved with it so Board of Yacht Club is an NFT project consisting of 10,000 little ape avatars basically it was one of the earliest and most successful NFT projects I would say like crypto pumps was arguably first and Board of Yacht Club is probably the second most notable right now what they've built it's almost like a supreme of NFT projects where it's really a brand name in and of itself and they have merchandise and live events and they have a bunch of celebrities and public figures who bought in and it's just a very vibrant and excited community so when I got started NFTs and I was kind of researching and seeing what the landscape looked like I kept seeing that name and those avatars and trying to understand what the community was like I started doing painting apes on dollar bills and then I did a ballpoint eight drawing and about a month after I released my genesis collection Board of Yacht Club themselves DM'd me and asked if I would do a derivative piece for collaboration that they were doing with Rolling Stone right okay and talk about that because I saw that they did those your Rolling Stone covers right yeah so they had a special edition scene with Rolling Stone it was I think there were 2,500 issues physical issues they're small inside like much smaller than a you know magazine you find on a magazine stand they also did an NFT version so all of the derivative are I was one of I think five or six derivative artists featured in the issue and all of us got to auction off our pieces as NFTs and then the cover and the back cover were also auctioned by Board of Yacht Club so it was it was Rolling Stone's first foray into the metaverse right right right are you surprised at all by the appetite for art that seems to be out there that may be untapped appetite for art I am I am and I think by getting involved in this I've been exposed to an entirely new audience of people who are interested in supporting what I do and owning a piece of my work I think for some people art is not something that they feel compelled to invest in and maybe their content to just go and buy whatever comes in a frame of target and that's fine I just have something on their wall and you know that's their prerogative but what NFT culture is really about is scarcity and one of ones and ownership so I think you know fine art plays really well into that especially what I do because the nature of things that are made by hand is that no two are ever the same.
Zach and Kevin I'm going to bring you back in now so Zach having gone through this process with Claire how do you feel like the holiday experiment with offering the NFT went what were some of your findings? I think from our perspective it went very well it was a smooth rollout I don't think we really had any technical glitches that got elevated me and I just I mean I think the takeaway you know from my perspective was just how smooth it was so met you know the metaverse and web 3 and crypto and blockchain are these intimidating terms and you hear about you know you have to rethink your idea of currency and in order to get in the mix you need to have a digital wallet and in that wallet you need to have cryptocurrency and you have to be aware of you know your different addresses of where you're sending things to and from and so there's all this hoopla and I guess intimidation factor at this in the sense stage of the industry and what we were able to do in conjunction with Claire was really just create a seamless deliverable for our client base to get into the metaverse and begin interacting with NFTs and and web 3 and a customer journey that's very that is exactly the same as what you're used to when you go on to an Amazon or any you know classic web 2 e-commerce site in case you're not aware I don't think we touched on it yet but just kind of the workflow of how we deliver these NFTs was really you know we gathered our internal emails across our four divisions we created a white list so you know each you have someone wanted and Kevin our Atari for example to receive one we were supplied his email we added it to the white list and then each of those individuals on the white list received an email just kind of alerting them to what we were up to and who Claire was and then you were just given a series of quick quick quick you registered on our internal marketplace redeem and then boom without having to enter any sort of meta-mask information or your digital wallet so to speak you know you were just gifted and NFT and you created accounts and wallets on the back end for those clients but the experience was very seamless very easy very intuitive and I think it was a big success. Kevin anything to add then? Yeah the IEL guys did a really great job of just simplifying it all down like Zach said so like it took two minutes and you suddenly went from just opening the email to owning an NFT it really could have been an easier and it was rolled out throughout all of our divisions in LA New York and London so clients all over the world actually got on and registered the newsletter that the the holiday card an NFT invite was sent out in was actually the highest the most open newsletter gosh it's like in a trucker for the past seven years so it was was clearly very very popular.
Did you get any direct feedback Kevin from people about it? People thought it was super cool like it was kind of the first time 99.9% of them have owned or really even been involved in the NFT world. We only really had I think I had two questions out of several thousand people that that went into the end of the site the simplicity and the functionality of it worked the way we hoped it would and yeah it's going off really well and we're pretty excited too we just shot a little behind the scenes video with with Claire this week so everyone would be receiving kind of a behind the scenes video about her and her work and just a look at how it was all done in about a week or so. And then when I don't know if this has happened yet because I feel like this was a this would have been a result of after sales but the part of the protein proceeds from the sale of this NFT should people choose to sell it we're going to go to the charity first descent.
Do you know if any of those transactions have happened yet do you have is it worth talking about who first descent is and what that's meant? Yeah Claire can definitely talk about first essentially we wanted her to be able to choose the beneficiary of the charity so that was her choice I'll let her talk about that. Yeah so first descent was is there I chose them for a few reasons and one of those reasons is that they are already set up to receive donations in crypto which makes the process really seamless. Another reason I chose them is that I actually I'm at the founder years ago and I think he's the great person doing great work and first descent what they are is an organization that hosts trips like kayaking trips, climbing trips, camping trip, outdoor trips where people who are either you know going through chemotherapy or in remission or in some ways battling or have had battled cancer.
Years ago I actually helped to send a friend of mine on one of their trips and she had the best time and met some amazing people and we sent a filmmaker along with her to document her her time there so we got to kind of watch it through her eyes and it just looked so amazing and you know people who might not have access to those kind of outdoor activities kayaking and whatnot are they have a whole staff fully equipped to help guide these trips and I think it's just a great escape and a great way for people going through that experience to meet other people with a shared experience. Yeah it does sound great. I understand that it's part of the magic of NFTs with respect to you know creators and artists here where you know should Claire have sold this piece in a gallery and I'll tell you somewhere I don't think necessarily you know if I was the buyer it fell out to me and X percent of this is going to go to a charity because it's near and dear to the artist's heart and here's a little bit even more look into that artist's you know existence as a human and so you know whether the distribution of NFTs is fantastic the ability to get your artwork and your creations out to a huge audience but also with the technology you know brought on by the smart contracts where not only can Claire be without having a full accounting sell these things get and receive you know commission for future sales but also direct X amount of sales to something that matters to her or to her community or you know etc etc so I think there's another aspect of how really cool this technology is from a creator perspective. Having so having gone through this process and you guys actually this might be for Kevin let's just review even though last time I talked to you I'm pretty sure we went through this but you guys bought redeem win.
March of 2021 I believe. Okay so it's coming up on a year either Kevin or Zach whichever one of you wants to take this. I mean having now been through it almost year which is really not very long but how have you what have you seen happen in the NFT space booth from the point of view of Troika and then more broadly and then what do you when you look at 2022 what are you seeing? So I'm new to the space I guess a little background me I graduated college in 2014 so I was in college during that whole Silk Road phase and you know really hang up on you now Zach but so I've been kind of like on the periphery looking in and always wondering when there'd be critical mass to kind of get involved myself and you've seen it you know like the Silk Road for the negative press and then in 2017 there was another big spike in the markets and now you know it's back on everyone's except with their tongue again you know that's kind of proliferated by the NFT conversation so it's kind of really jumped into the forefront starting in February of last year so I guess so for me every single person I know I was at a production company here in LA before I joined in up with Troika in this role and everyone was kind of like what do you think in here is it a little too early etc etc so in the last seven or eight months we've seen you know Facebook rename themselves meta we've seen Square rename themselves Block you saw I think was it yesterday or the day before Microsoft made a big splash and so you see these the biggest corporations in the world driving the daily conversation totally rebranding themselves getting ready for this to the metaverse so to speak so I think at the beginning a lot of people within Troika were kind of like what's the leadership thinking bringing in this band of crypto bandits but you know just being in these conversations you're starting to see a lot of you know we work with some of the world's biggest brands and you're seeing those executives I'm not and starting to see oh there is something the same way Claire saw something special with Web 3 and what NFTs can do for her you're starting to see people in these cheap marketing office or chairs having those same light bulbs go off and you know just as a little example we had a big meeting a big pitch just last Thursday with a legacy client of the firm they're looking to create three-month marketing blitz have a seven figure check to write to create a lot of excitement around something they're looking to activate on and we provided four ideas the last idea of which was an NFT idea and all the ideas were great but you just at the last five minutes of the conversation was all centered around the NFT idea and I think you're just as more and more people warm up to it you know and you're to your question where do you think we're going in 2022 well we had $25 billion worth of NFT sales in 2021 just last week there were two and a half billion dollars worth of NFT sales and based on our you know meetings with clients or prospective clients you're starting to see these other folks open their eyes and you take the 10 minutes to start reading and learning about what can be made possible in this space and I think you know what's something that's super omnipresent for me it's like I love the fact that you know people sold us you know 70 million dollar NFT last year and we're having this podcast maybe as a result these high-end sales have made waves and be in the press but from our brand perspective and where I think this can really go is kind of thinking about NFTs as the new merchandise and thinking about the man engagement tool and really building community around your you know your consumer base or your fans and generating fandom and it doesn't have to be a million dollar you know product but it could be something that's fun and digital and interactive and ever-changing so to speak really worth the tip of this but you know we're having conversations from the highest levels of professional sports leagues and teams to enter mint companies and talent and celebrities all the way to museums a lot of excitement for where things are going in 2022 and you know that last part also Zach is pretty key and Paige you know it's just another way for people to express fandom and make other fandom especially in the sports and the gaming world this is where we're seeing just a lot of light bulbs go you know it's kind of the new merchandise it's ticketing it's access exclusive access to things it's collectibles so that's for us in the LA office we're really focusing and having a lot of conversations with the sports in the gaming world right now as well and don't forget another one Staples Center became crypto.com arena so yeah oh my gosh Zach just connect the dots for me and how do you connect NFTs to metaverse is it that NFTs would be sort of part of the metaverse currency or what how do those two things interact?
Yeah so I think on the basic sense the idea would be as we spend more and more time in our digital worlds and as they kind of become more advanced you know you start and I don't know if you own an Oculus Quest yet but you know for $299 it's pretty impressive what they've been able to do so far so you can only imagine what technology is going but so really what's interesting about NFTs and the technological innovation is that you can own a digital good right and trust me I just had eight months of people laughing in my face at meetings and bars when I say I'm doing this stuff but you know my mother was 15 years old and she spends her entire day on her I've had on Facebook and I mean we're sitting here on a zoom competitor I'll say but you know we are in the metaverse right now all are and it's just a matter of time a lame metaverse but we're in the metaverse this one's a little lame but the idea so Nike just bought this company artifacts for an undisclosed sum and as we get you know everyone points to this film Ready Player One but as that film becomes more of a reality you're gonna want a pair of Jordans in that world or you're gonna want the Birken bag in that world and this is you know it's everyone super early I there's only 10 million Ethereum wallets out there right now so you know 10 million people out here driving this market but I think it's the beginning of an entirely new digital marketplace I'm gonna be decorating my home in the metaverse with Claire's NFTs is what you're saying exactly exactly exactly exactly right I don't know I'm excited for metaverse I'm a little scared I feel like I already live quite a bit of my life in the digital space but maybe if it's decorated with disco balls I'll like it better yeah I mean just one thing to think about is you know the blue check mark across is a digital good right you know you earn it some people pay for it and you know my question to you know pick a celebrity but you know how much would lady dog up hey not to lose her verified check mark across twitter and gram tick tock and what have you and so I think there you know it's a little fun thought experiment if there is value assigned to these digital goods and what the you know non-tungible token has given rise to or the ability to give rise to is this digital ownership which if you use a smartphone and spend all day on you know doing whatever you have to believe in it a little bit I also I also want to add here I spend too much time on twitter and there are you know a fair amount of people outside the NFT space who people within the NFT space call right click savers people who don't don't fully grasp the concept of paying a lot of money for a jpeg that anybody can view online and anybody could right click save and download the difference and I think the part that's lost on those people and this dot will eventually connect for everyone I think or for most people is that there is still real money attached to that jpeg like you can right click save a photo of a board ape but you cannot sell that for two million dollars but someone who is actually holding a verified you know on-chain board abyok club PFP profile picture can sell that for two million dollars so yes you can right click save it but you cannot extract the same value from it because it's not it's not the you know original minted version on a blockchain yeah actually thank you for making that point somebody was asking me about as if I should be the explainer of NFTs which I should not if somebody was asking me about that question basically and I explained it to them and I will say don't really think it registered with them but I do think that's a very good point that people who are creating art and photography and unique works do deserve to be compensated for that work and especially as everything moves to digital what is the way to compensate them because it's certainly not there to creators to be like well because digital you don't get reimbursed yeah I mean at the moment when you post or you know the way things were is that if you were a photographer and you posted your work to instagram which is a predominantly visual platform instagram now owns that the thing that you just posted so the difference now is that you own that thing you posted because you can sell it and you could you know the same picture you posted to instagram for maybe a little bit of engagement you could now auction on a platform super rare for you know a couple of years who knows how much like anywhere any amount really depending on the you know like the platform you have in the way that you know how to use it so instead of instagram taking your content and not compensating you other than giving back like if you like that photo can now you know pay your rent right that is all my questions just Kevin and Zach do you have anything else you would like to add uh no not really I um I think we kind of covered though everything that I wanted to cover and I'm glad that Claire had a a chance to like tell her story and get a little background too we were really excited to work with her so it all worked out nicely yeah okay well thanks you guys I appreciate it so much and thank you for giving me your time thank you for having us thank you thank you have a wonderful day guys bye thank you you guys that's it for this episode of the daily green podcast if you have suggestions for conversations please reach out to us on Facebook and link in app from x global or on instagram and twitter app from x underscore local so you can also email us at dailybriefappfromx.org and you can subscribe to the daily brief podcast on apple podcast where you can also rate and review us or on google podcast spotify or wherever you get your podcast and as always thanks for listening