Hello, I'm Paige Albinak, editorial director of Promax, and this is the Daily Brief podcast. Today, I am honored to be joined by Pamela Duckworth, G is head of network and original programming at ZBOTV. Hello, Pam, welcome to the podcast. Hi, I'm Paige, good to be here.
Thanks for having us all. We are thrilled to have you. So just for the sake of my listeners, quickly remind us of what ZBOTV is, and then how, and the different networks that you guys run, how that works together, and how people find you. Okay, great, so ZBOTV is an aggregator of all of the channels that you ever want.
So it's basically a cable replacement. It's an app, you start up on your TV, and you can watch any channel that you would normally watch if you had cable, but then you don't have to have the box, you don't have to have anything like that. And then Fubo Sports Network is a fast channel that also is on the platform for Fubo TV, but it's also available in up to like 75 million homes. So it's on Roku, it's on Visio, Samsung, LG.
So you could find it on any one of your TVs and you could watch it on any one of your devices. The Fubo Sports Network, as an app, you can get separately from Fubo TV if you want to. No, and for Fubo, you can get it on, you know, like when you turn on your, like your Samsung TV. Yeah, your Fubo TV, your Apple TV, it'll all be on there and you just click on it.
So you don't even need to download the app. It will be offered on the partner platforms. Okay, okay. So, and then just to give you some background about you, what do you do as Head of Network and Original Programming at Fubo TV?
Let's start there and then also, you have a pretty interesting background. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that too. Okay, great. So as far as my job overseeing the network, you know, I have a great production team, a programming team, content acquisition, and we just team together and we produced four original, four or five of original programs internally with an in-house production team.
And then what we do is we go out and we look for content that we partner with existing production companies. And then we do content deals like that, which fills up our programming. And then also just tell us, we talked about this a little bit before recording, but besides Fubo Sports Network, how many of the different networks within Fubo TV within that ecosystem that you're programming for? So currently we have three other channels and going to the end of the fourth.
So we also have Fubo Movie Network, which is just like any other movie network. It has a variety of different genres of all the different movies throughout the years. And then we also have Fubo Latino, which we are some of our sporting events and then as well as partner programming on that channel as well. And then next year to probably end as Q2, we partnered with Ryan Reynolds and his company, Maximum Effort.
So we're gonna be launching the Maximum Effort channel, which I'm very excited about. Yeah, but it's exciting. And we're gonna put a pin in that and talk about that a little bit more detail. All right, so and then leading into Fubo, tell me about your background.
Well, I went to, I was raised in a while and I went to Ball and Green. And Ball and Green has a wonderful television, radio television and film department, which I'm sure they call it something differently now. And I was lucky enough to work in, they had a station, a PBS station, Channel 57, WBGU, and all throughout college, I worked there. While working there, production companies would come to town and do stuff.
So they would hit up the TV station to see if there were any PAs that could work on the productions. And it was a sports production company that actually was doing a draw grace or something like that. And so I worked with them that weekend and ended up getting along with them and with all of them so well that they hired me and took me on the road. And then so all the weekends, I would go and work with this production team all across the United States on different types of car racing.
So I kind of like that's where I kind of first dipped my toe into sports. And then that led to about 10 years of working my way up to being a producer of live racing, whether it was NASCAR, SCCA, Trans Am, drag racing, you name it and I was there. So, but during that time as well, I was hired by a company that was just starting up called QVC. So I was doing sports and then during the week, I was doing QVC and selling stuff.
And we created it from nothing. It was like an empty warehouse and we got there. I was the producer and then I got to hire and work with all the talent while I was there as well. I've always kind of like crossed over in all that stuff.
So then the racing, keep going with the racing. I was also at Direct TV. I was at Direct TV for 11 years. And in there I was head of national advertising production and events.
So I got to dip my toe into a whole different type of content, which was short, you know, 30 second spots, 15 second spots, where I think it was very helpful because telling your story in 15 to 30 seconds is an art. And I got to work with some of the best out there, some of the best directors and producers. I was also out in LA and I had a chance to work on some Fox specials. I worked on this wacky show called Day Men's Hollywood, which was a blast, which was a comedy show.
Dip my toes and a bunch of different other things out there. I got into the live award show kind of circuit, where I worked on an entity that had music awards, billboard music awards and all that kind of stuff. And then good old KVC went to start a second channel that was going to be HIPAA and younger. So they called me back there and I launched a channel called OnCue, did that for a while.
And then I decided I wanted to move. And that was all in Philly, between Philly and LA. Then I decided I wanted to move to New York. So I just off to move to New York.
And there I was working with Al Roker Productions, worked with Marcus Stewart for years, which I loved. And then I ended up after leaving, now I'm getting my things wrong. But then after that, I, that's when I was at Direct TV when we were bought by AT&T, I stayed on a while to help with the transition. And then I left and started my production company, which is Duckworth Entertainment, my also have Holiday House Productions.
Doing some consulting for a bunch of companies. I helped rebrand Warner Brothers, when they became like HBO Max and everything. And then I got a call from a friend and said, hey, there's this other company that's called Froobo. I want you to come and meet the founders.
So I popped over there and like within five minutes, I fell in love with these guys. And David Gantler, he's the CEO and co-founder. He basically was like, yeah, we would love to have you come on board. So consulted for the first couple of years.
And then one day, David and I were chatting and he's like, we should start around sports network. And that's literally how we did it. He's like, can we start it in like, let's say six weeks or something like that? And I thought he was joking.
And I go, of course, I can do anything, right? Cause I always come at everything. Like I can do it. And so the next day, he's like, okay, we're gonna start this network.
And we're gonna do it in six weeks. And I was like, wait a minute, David. I think we know why, why do we need to do it in six weeks? Because that is his personality.
Oh my God. But it's okay. I had to hire everyone. We ended up pulling it off.
And I think it possibly three months. Like literally, I just got on the phone, hired a couple of production people, was doing talent interviews, like starting the next week. Got some production people on brainstorm to show ideas. And it literally came together in probably a little over three months.
And then we launched. So I mean, it was faster theories. And it was quite exciting. Yeah, great.
And then so also, so Flubo TV has some sports rights. But then also you guys fill that in with a lot of original programming and athlete created content that we're gonna talk about and it's set back, correct? Yeah, for super sports network. Yes.
So and then did you originally hired at Flubo to head up sports and then that preview has expanded or is it the flip? I originally was consulting on marketing and branding. So then, yeah, yeah. So to get the name out there and because, you know, we're the underdog, we're the smallest player in this massive field.
And you know, all these other guys have limitless cash, it seems. We're still out there plugging away, but I think we're doing a great job. And we're gonna continue to do that. I feel like when Flubo showed up though, you didn't have these.
I mean, you always had Netflix, right? But then since that time you've had Disney and HBO Max and all these guys get into the game. So it's gotten a lot more crazy. Yeah, I mean, big time.
So if you even consider, so, you know, we consider our competitors, it would be Sling, YouTube TV live, Hulu TV live, and they're actively stream. So, and yeah, well, here's the difference is with all the ones I just mentioned, they're aggregators of channels as well, right? So Flubo TV, the streaming service, that's the competition. Now, if you think about original content and sports rights and stuff like that, now you're having Apple and Amazon in a game that have like, they can print money.
So they're going out and they're just snatching up every available sporting, yeah, anything out there, they're buying. And honestly, like we talk about this all the time, it's like, unfortunately, the customer is who's taking the brunt of this, right? Like, what app do I need to watch Thursday night football? Well, you have to have a prime video, right?
You have to have Amazon prime. What do I need to watch? Let's act like the NBA, where's that gonna go? The next time the rights are up, which is in the next couple of years.
You know, who knows? Maybe Apple's gonna buy that. And then you're gonna have to have that streaming service. So it's a whole different world.
It's almost like the wild list right now in our business. Let's talk about that a little, so in light of that. And then sports rights being this incredible commodity is not the right word. But I mean, it's that value.
No, but it is not. Yeah. I mean, it's a commodity I think because it has so much price. It's the quiddity of the right word.
We are now leaving my realm of comfortability and economics. But meaning that, you know, like people really go for live sports won't pay a lot of money and then build a brand around them. So, but for Fubo, you know, how are you sort of zigging when others are zagging in this area? If you're talking for just Fubo Sports Network, or you're talking Fubo TV, the streaming service in general?
Let's talk Fubo Sports Network. Okay, so Fubo Sports Network, you know, like I said, we're the baby. We don't have money to go get any sports rights. What we do is we do deals for Fubo TV, the streaming service, and then we tease on the fast channels or with sports network.
For instance, we'll air. I'll use Commenball as an example. So we had the rights to Commenball and that was the qualifiers for the World Cup. Right, follow that, follow that.
I don't even know what Commenball is, so what is that? Oh, I guess. Commenball is a pickleball, but yeah, the Commenball, what is it? That's pretty funny.
Pickleballs, that's a whole nother discussion, right? I love people. Commenball was a soccer series, you know, football. And it was the qualifiers for various teams to get to the ability to go to the World Cup.
So we had that, so we had the sports rights for that on Fubo TV, the streaming service. So what we did was we would get certain games and we would air them for free on Fubo Sports Network on the fast channel, right? And then we would promote to, if you want to see all the Commenball games, you would get a subscription to Fubo TV, the streaming service. Does that make sense?
Yes, yep. So we used it as a marketing tool and it also helped to build Fubo Sports Network, the fast channel. And what we did with that, which was pretty amazing, was we did shoulder programming. So you know that term is like you would do, that the show leading up to the live event.
And what we did was we did shoulder programming around it in both English and Spanish simultaneously. So we aired the programming on Fubo Sports Network in English and then on Fubo Latino for the Spanish version and aired the games on both of those, also building a following on both channels. And that was kind of amazing because we shot that down in Miami and I had connecting control rooms for the live shows. And I could literally walk in between the Spanish show going on and then go over to the English show.
And the difference between a Spanish show and an English show is amazing. The amount of energy on a Spanish show was so cool. The Latino show had, it was just fun. And it was a great job.
My team did a great job. David Pagan was executive producer of that and then Mike Angie, they ran a tight ship down there. Do you think, I think it's interesting and it kind of dovetails with something I think about a lot but since you come in with marketing and branding experience and you started as a marketing branding consultant to Fubo that that changes the way you view how to program and how to leverage content against your goals? Yeah, I think that would be, I mean, unknowing to me now that you brought it up it probably is extremely helpful.
And just all the different areas of television I've worked in over the last 30 some years, right? I think bringing any kind of just experience to this. Yeah, I'm sure that has helped. Well, this morning, this is sort of not relevant to this conversation but about a different company.
But this morning Disney said that they were gonna take Andor and put it on ABC FX, Hulu and Freeform over Thanksgiving, which I feel like is something that I don't know why you would not do and the streaming services really haven't done it at all. It's all been, I feel like very, they keep everything kind of in its silo. But you know, why not take a piece of content and marketing market across your platforms? Though now making this relevant to Fubo, it sounds like that's something though that you guys already do and already smart about doing.
So, I mean, how do you feel about, I'm developing this piece of content or I've acquired this piece of content and how do I use it to leverage the brand across platforms and attract viewers? Do you think there's ever a way where you can overly dilute a piece of content or do you feel like it's sort of anything goes? No, I think it's anything goes. And the way we look at, let's say our originals, I'll use NoChill for an example.
So, NoChill with Gurbit Arena, start number one show. Super popular, he's, first of all, a great guy to work with, I adore him. And the show is just a really good show. So, what we do with something like that is when we started getting traction with NoChill, we would air it on linear first, we would have it for me already week.
And then, of course, we would go to our YouTube page where we would tease with clips. And then, when we started getting some traction on that, I mean, we have some that are in the millions of viewers. I mean, first of all, for NoChill, he literally has had close to 74 million views and almost 7 million hours watched on his show alone. And we're in our third, we just start our third year.
So, I mean, very impressive numbers on that. But what we do with him is then now we actually on our YouTube channel, we also place all of the full shows because we noticed that we were getting a different viewer on YouTube. And then we decided, well, you know what, we should, if this is getting traction here, let's do a test on Twitch. Let's do, you're aware of the man, yes, right?
I'm kind of like, watch along. Well, okay, so we decided, we came up with a watch party where we knew for a fact that we didn't have the rights to show the NBA game. But what we could do is have a party in Gil's man cave, have his friends, all NBA, ex-NBA guys, Swaggy P, you know, Paul Pierce, I'm trying to think it was there, got some big names. And we had a little, we had a cocktail party, like with orders and all this other stuff.
And they were watching the game, but the viewer didn't see the game. And the guys just talked about the game the whole time and it ended up turning into this really fun party. And I think that night, oh yeah, I know what it is. We got almost six million impressions on that show alone and had like 1.4 million concurrent views.
And that was just, what we did was we were simulcast on Twitch, YouTube, Twitter, and Instagram and also on Facebook Sports Network. And that night alone was one of our biggest days. Yeah, so I think that's like a great kind of second screen experience too, like people can have the game up on one screen and watch the guys. Yeah, that's exactly what we did.
Yeah, because we have what's called multi-view, exactly what you're speaking about. So the viewer could put what's actually the game was on, CVS or something, put that in one of your screens and then the other is the guys watching that exact show. So that's exactly how we pitched it. And it's a huge success.
So we're gonna be doing a lot more of this kind of season. That's like hanging out with your TV friends while you watch the game. Yeah, totally. To the degree that you are able to talk about this, can you discuss when you are expanding your content across all those different social platforms?
How do you monetize it? Monetizing all by pre-rolls, mid-rolls, advertising. That's it, we have the monetization. You know, when you're on any of those platforms, the number one thing you have to do is you have to be consistent and you have to give the viewers like more than you think that they want, right?
Keep them coming back. So, and you also get to an AI based off of the difference. Yeah, yeah. So that, and you have to stay in that or by the way, it'll go elsewhere.
So, Mike Locker, who heads up our social, does a wonderful job just staying on it and putting together like funny clips and all that kind of stuff. So, keep them interested. Do you think that in the current content ecosystem, that it's even makes sense to think about any content as like a linear platform, meaning got through the TV or you've got through both sports network, but are you basically always thinking sort of three dimensionally in terms of platforms and distribution? Oh, definitely.
The more platforms, the better. I mean, you just, because people are consuming content on every possible way that that's out there. So, you're gonna get new eyeballs. And if they like what they're saying, they're gonna find you on all the other platforms as well.
So, yeah, I like putting stuff on everything. So, for another example is we have an MMA series that we have exclusively that's Sean Merriman, who's an XFL player. It's called Lights Out, Sean Merriman's Lights Out, Extreme Fighting. So, we'll be bringing that back in January and we will actually simulcast that on every one of the platforms that I just mentioned, as well as doing a watch-on party.
I think the reason I think it's interesting is, I feel like there's still emphasis in the press, of which I am a part on, oh, you know, linear ratings did XYZ, whatever, but just more and more. And especially looking at what you guys are doing, or people like you, it's one tiny piece of a much larger puzzle. Oh, 100%. So, that's one piece where you saw that one piece of content, but also it's here and here and here and here.
And then socially, it's accruing back. And so, whatever the total audience is, that's the picture. It's hard. It's hard as media, I think, to have transparency into that.
We don't necessarily see that picture, but I think for companies or, you know, when you're working with your advertisers, that's something that you can present and it's very powerful, but I don't know how well it's understood in terms of conveying that message back out, you know? No, I think you're completely right with that. And if you think about the advertisers, it's almost like, I honestly don't know how Nielsen is a business. What's the world?
I don't mean any harm against Nielsen, anybody that works there. I'm just like, it doesn't make sense to me anymore. Because there are so many touch points and different platforms and the numbers of impressions and views and all that kind of stuff. And I think we are kind of in a learning process with advertisers about all that, and how they need to embrace that going forward.
Yeah, I mean, I think that without getting too far down this rabbit hole, but I think that Nielsen in a way does have capabilities in covering all those platforms. I think that's another piece of the problem, actually, though, is like their ability to communicate out publicly, just in a PR sense, that, you know, hey, we can actually provide measurement for all these platforms that you can understand in our relevant pieces missing. Obviously this weekend, they just, again, where it was a firm that they would not be reaccredited. That's not helpful.
But I think they do have systems in place that cover that, but, you know, then they were trying to do Nielsen one, and that's still not panning out. So yes, all of that is sounding. And then, you know, you have good competition in these other rivals, like I spot TV, et cetera. But anyway, that's a huge digression, and that's another, that's a three hour, five billion hour conversation.
I want to go back to, so what you're talking about with Gilberinas and John Merriman, which I think is so interesting, these partnerships you've made with athletes who then have turned into content creators. And I wondered, one, why you think, I'm sure all athletes do not equal good content creators because everybody has to create skillsets, but how, you know, how you find athletes, and why you think at least the ones that you guys have tapped into do make your content creators who are able to, sort of, engage with have relationships with fans. Right, right. So I think my years at DirecTV, when I was producing, whether it was brand and content, all the commercials or whatever, I was lucky enough to work with Peyton and Eli Manning for 11 years.
And they're amazing guys in the first place, and I consider them close friends. They, I learned- Like the exception that proves the rule a little bit though, like- Yeah, they're amazing. Yeah, yeah. Right, but I was lucky enough, like Tony Romo, Andrew Long.
I did work with the 10 of the guys, and athletes, I find, are so easy to work with. Is it really perfectly quarterbacks? And I'm just kidding, because those guys are- I never thought about that. No, exactly amazing that I knew that, to be honest.
I don't know what it is. Okay, not what it is. I just think that they're so into their skills from being an athlete, that they take on this seriously, you know, and they come at it like a game, and it just seems to work out for us, you know, because we just launched a show this year with T.J. Who Jansata, and good luck smelling his name, it's awesome.
Yeah, and Orlando Skandrick, and it's called Aaron It Out. And it's a talk show that they just discuss the upcoming games from for the NFL this week. What we are doing with this show is we're actually doing live. We're live before we even do linear, because we wanted to test, so we do it live on YouTube.
And then the next day, it goes on to the sports network. And we're doing that because they're talking about really timely stuff, and we didn't want to waste a whole day for the conversation to go out there. That show's doing really well. And those guys, again, great to work with.
And yeah, that thing's working out as well. But we also did, expanding on our NBA, was a show called, Oh, it's RJ Hampton's new show. And RJ plays for Orlando Magic, and it's called The Young Person's Basketball Podcast. And we just premiered that in October, I believe.
And our first guest was the number one draft pick named Paolo Panchara, and they played together. So that thing's doing really well. All the clips, again, we do the same exact thing. Like the very first episode, it hit over 200,000 views.
And by the way, we didn't even market it. So that's not algorithm again. Yep, it is, it is. And especially NBA algorithms extremely well.
And then of course, we still have a good talk when we're ready with Zio and Hatch. So those are things we're doing right now. And then we also do specials. So if that's like you were a brand and you came to us, I'll use Micheloblyte as an example.
And you wanted to do a special around March Madness? We produced those shows as well for brands. Talk about live for a second, because you mentioned that that one show was live. Do you have other things that are live?
And how do you, I mean, I feel like live is a kind of a big, I don't want to say cat tour, because I think it's more, more substantive than that. But I do think people are attracted to live. So how are you guys using that to your advantage? Well, so live, so we do have, so for instance, Sean Merriman's like extreme fighting, likes out extreme fighting is live.
That's a three hour live live show, once a month starting in January. Live always gets the most eyeballs. We also, through one of our partners, Stadium, we air certain college football games, college basketball games. We also have Liga Acebe, which is a basketball league that we aired, it's over from Europe.
And oh my God, what else do we air live? You're doing pretty well with all the names though, because it's a lot. Oh my God, there's a lot. I'm sitting here going, I'm so glad that I still have a memory.
But why do you think that people respond to live in the way they do? Because I just think sports is passion, right? These are passionate sports fans. Sports bring you joy, like Ryan Reynolds and team.
And I discussed that, like the whole reason people watch sports is you're with your friends, you love your team, it's just all about passion. And I just wish. It was interesting in the pandemic when it was like no audiences. And I feel like that, for whatever reason, because games were happening, but because there weren't audiences, I think people were, I don't know, it affected whether or not people were watching watch.
Oh, I agree with you. It was so bizarre watching quiet games, wasn't it? It was like, oh, wow. Yeah, it's almost like it took air out of the room.
Yeah, it does. It made it seem like, I don't know, not real, like it didn't have stakes or even the Super Bowl that year when they played, it was like no fans in the stadium. I think that was the first year of the Buccaneers won. It was like, is this a real, and even in the non-swords world, but like the Oscars, it just all seemed non-impactful because it wasn't fully operational kind of.
Oh, I agree, I agree. But you do have to give everyone kudos who just kept going forward with it. No, I mean, they rethought how to do the Oscars, they rethought how to do football, piping and cheering to help the guys play because it was affecting the guys too. So yeah, it's very interesting time.
All right, you brought up Ryan, let's talk about that whole deal. So you guys are gonna launch a fast channel with Ryan Reynolds and his production company, Maximum Effort, by the same name. So how did that all come to be? And you said that Ryan's about bringing joy to the world.
Thank you, Ryan. What, so what does that tell, I'm gonna look like for you guys, what kind of things are you gonna do? I think that the back story is kind of fun. So I'll just tell you how that happened.
So I had an article about one of the thoughts that Maximum Effort was producing. And me having been in the advertising part, for a direct TV for 11 years, I was very much intrigued because we were lucky enough, like I said, to work with some of the best people out there for a direct TV. And I wanted to do the same for football. So I called, called, I sent an email to Maximum Effort which I'm sure was just an empty email address, right?
I sent it and I said, Hey guys, love what you're doing over there. I'm on this new stream source called Fubo with underdog. I feel like you guys like underdogs. If you get a chance email me back and maybe we can hop on a phone call.
I didn't hear back for like three months, something like that. And then all of a sudden I got an email from this guy named James. He's like, we love Fubo. Let's talk.
Basically, that's it. So we start talking, James Tony, he's one of Ryan's partners. We just start talking and we start out talking about let's do an ad campaign, right? Let's like, should we talk about this?
But you know, we're looking to do a new ad campaign. So then it just came down to me spending as much time as I could with Ryan and his other partner, George Dewey and James Tony. I would go to events with them. It was all about just getting to know each other because they're really big on.
They have to really like you. I don't know how else to say it. Like be comfortable with you in order to work with you. You know, trust you.
Yeah, exactly. So I guess I pulled it off because we ended up. I think it was like a really big hardship having to go to game. Yeah, seriously, like I was in Wembley with them.
I was a Super Bowl with them. I was in Canada and South of France with them. It was a really fun project. It's what that takes.
Yeah. I always, yeah, I took one for the team. That's what I was talking about. And you can with Ryan Reynolds.
Yeah, it's so funny. So anyway, we come up with this idea like, okay, let's do a bigger partnership and let's start a channel. Ryan's like, I always want to have my own channel. And like I said to you, I want to bring joy.
I want people to laugh. I want people to have this channel on when they want to be uplifted. And then it turned into that. And then it turned into an unscripted first look with Fubo and a blind look for scripted.
And now we're in business together. And honestly, I could be happier because they are, they are really smart and super nice team. So that's going to be coming sometime in Q2 next year. Can you speak about it also other than bringing us joy?
Can you speak about anything, you know, specifically what that channel is going to look like in terms of what kind of content it will offer? Another content like it's going to be comedies, funny movies, anything like that. Anything like that. Anything literally like I'm telling you like light, it'll be very light.
I think Ryan referred to it as like a Ryan Reynolds fever dream of joy or something like that. And then we're also co-producing original content with them based off of that deal. And then by doing that, that would necessarily just be for Fubo, it would be potentially to shop wherever. Correct, correct.
And then only some will be originals will also be on a maximum effort channel. Okay. I mean, also, because he, we talked about this also before, but he owns the stock team. Yes, so I know he has like, he does welcome to XM for FX, but would there be any content from that that you would bring over to Fubo?
Well, we're talking about ideas. Like I said, we're kind of in the, we're in development right now on a bunch of different ideas that I can't talk about. But as far as the actual shows right now, they're tied up, I believe BT has them over in Europe. So we're just looking into what that contract is and all that kind of stuff right now.
I mean, we talked about Ryan. So that's a lot about what you guys are looking forward to, but just looking ahead for the next year or two. What is it that you're super excited about? I'm going to get more shows along the lines of what we just discussed.
Like the voice of the athlete is what we believe in. And we believe in it because, you know, we're all used to just seeing the guys play, the guys and girls play and their take on, on either the sport where it is today, as well as current, current affairs. It's very interesting that having them just be able to speak freely about all of this. And that's what Super Sports Network is.
I think, you know, we get inbound calls all the time because they'll watch Gil and they're like, I want to be able to talk like that and, you know, be on this channel. Going forward, planning on having, hopefully maybe even three new shows next year, as well as getting some more sports, some more live sports on the board. And then just kind of building out all the other networks along the same line, getting on as many platforms as possible, because obviously, you know, the more eyeballs, the better. And then that's it, just building more shows and getting out there.
Okay. All right. Well, it all sounds really interesting and exciting. So thank you so much for your time.
I greatly appreciate it and it was fascinating to talk to you. No, it's great talking to you as well. Have a good one. Okay, thank you, too.
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