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That's Shopify.ca. From New York Times, I'm Michael Bavaro. This is an 80. Long before a gunman in Indianapolis killed eight people at a FedEx facility last week, the state where he lives had passed a red flag law intended to prevent people, just like him, from acquiring weapons.
Today, my colleague, Campbell Robertson, on What Went Wrong. It's Thursday, April 22nd. Campbell, where does the story behind this shooting start? So a little afternoon on Tuesday, March 3rd of 2020, two women show up at a police precinct in Indianapolis.
One of them introduces herself as the mother of an 18-year-old named Brandon Hall. She tells the police that she had driven him the day before to a gun store called the Gun Bunker, just to look at guns. And she was not aware that he had money with him, but he bought a shotgun and took it home. And when they got home, she asked him, what are you going to do with the gun?
She told police that he got angry. He hit her in the arm. And he told her to shut up, but she kept asking. And he finally replied.
She told police, this is not the life I want to live. I'll end it my way. I'm going to point this unloaded gun at the police, and they will shoot me. She told police that her son gets very angry and that she was worried for her safety and decided not to go to work on that day, but to come to the police to seek some help.
So here's a mother self-reporting to the police that her son is threatening suicide by cop. Yes, and she's asking for their help. And so what do the police in this precinct do or say in response? So a group of officers come to the home with the mother.
They come inside, and she calls her son, Brandon, downstairs. He's not aware that there are police there. He comes downstairs, and the officers handcuff him. Apparently, he didn't put up a fight.
He immediately tells them not to look at his computer, and they ask him about what his mother said. The report says he downplayed any suicidal thoughts or plans, but he said he was sad and depressed and that he would benefit from counseling. So the police take him to a local hospital for assessment. It's called an immediate detention.
He goes just for several hours where he's looked at, and he's sent home apparently without any medication. And, Campbell, what happens to the shotgun that his mother is so concerned about? So back at the house, the officers go up to his bedroom to get the shotgun. While they're in the bedroom, they see the computer he was talking about, and they see some sites on it that suggest that he was looking at white supremacist sites, which they will later inform the FBI about.
But they take the shotgun, and the family agrees simply to forfeit it, that they can take it. And they take it to police headquarters and put it in the police property room. And according to the report, they write that it was seized from a, quote, dangerous person on the property room inventory sheet. And, Campbell, on what grounds are the police taking this gun?
How does that work? That is part of Indiana's so-called red flag law, which is called the Laird Law in Indiana. And just to be clear, Campbell, when you say red flag law, you're referring to an increasingly common kind of statute passed in states across the country over the past decade in response to gun violence that is literally, as its name suggests, supposed to raise a red flag in the legal system about a person who might seem to be a risk if they have a gun in their hands. Yeah, they're technically called extreme risk protection laws.
And they've been passed in 17, 18, 19 states at this point. Indiana's is one of the oldest in the country. It was passed in 2005, almost unanimously, by the state legislature, following the killing of a police officer who was shot by a man whose guns were taken away by police. And then he got a new one and was just firing an assault rifle in the streets and killed this police officer, Jake Laird, in 2004.
Right. So how exactly does this Indiana red flag law work? Well, it basically has multiple steps. The first step allows police to seize a weapon without a warrant from someone who's deemed dangerous immediately.
But the second part is that prosecutors can go before a judge to not only justify that seizure, but try to get an order that would keep the weapon away from them and keep that person from purchasing or owning or possessing any gun for six months to a year. Okay. And what does that process look like? So under the law, the seizure of the gun would set off a 14-day clock in which prosecutors have to decide whether to take the next step that we talked about and petition for something called a Laird order.
Okay. The whole process can take months. It often does take months, even over a year sometimes. But the initial petition, there's a 14-day window in which they're supposed to file it.
Got it. So at this point, law enforcement has to decide whether to engage this, I guess, second element of the law, not just the seizure of the gun, but legal action that would try to ensure that this man cannot obtain a new gun. Right. The burden on law enforcement is proving in court that he is, quote, dangerous.
And what happens if law enforcement decides not to try to prove that a person is dangerous? Well, in a typical case, they would have to return the gun or guns that they seize, and there would never be any ban on them buying any more guns or possessing guns. So back to the story of Brandon Hole. This is a very crucial moment in the interplay between this red flag law and this seemingly mentally unwell man.
And so what do prosecutors decide to do? Well, they ultimately decide not to pursue a red flag order. And why would that be? I'm just remembering that the police report itself described this man as dangerous.
So why aren't prosecutors pursuing the red flag order? Well, first of all, they have the gun, which sort of set all this off in the first place. They have the gun that he was making these threats with, and the family has agreed to turn it over. So the immediate crisis has been averted.
And these laws are most often used in these crisis situations. And I should say here that in the vast, vast majority of cases, when a person is undergoing some sort of mental health crisis, they're not a threat to other people. But this law is named specifically at a small subset of people who could become dangerous to themselves or others. And beyond all that, we understand that prosecutors saw this as a particularly tricky case.
Despite what the mother had told the police when she showed up at the precinct, the police themselves didn't have any evidence that would form the basis for a case like this. Often these cases arise when police respond to an active scene. There was a domestic violence situation. Someone might be locked in a room threatening to hurt himself.
The person might tell the police that he wants to hurt himself. That wasn't the case here. There were no other incidents. Brandon Holt told the police.
He downplayed suicidal thoughts. So as we understand it, there wasn't a whole lot to go on to build a case very quickly. Got it. So just to be sure I understand the thinking of the prosecutors in this moment, it's that the threat now feels lowered because he's given up his weapon and it's just going to be difficult to make a legal case that they think they can actually win to seek a right flag order.
So the prosecutors say to themselves, what we have done so far feels like enough. That seems to be what's happening here. Yes. But just to be clear, these prosecutors are consciously deciding not to pursue Indiana's right flag law to its fullest extent.
And they're essentially wagering that this crisis has passed. Yes, but it doesn't end up like that. Over the summer, he buys two rifles, both semi-automatic rifles, one in July, the other in September. At some point, he gets a job at a FedEx facility at a huge warehouse out by the airport where packages come in, people sort.
He works there for a few months and then one day in October just doesn't show up for her. And then he's off the radar. And on a Thursday night, a little before midnight, about six months later, he shows up in the parking lot of that FedEx facility with his rifles and begins firing indiscriminately. And over the course of less than four minutes, he kills eight people.
And then he turns the gun on himself and kills himself. We'll be right back. Notice how some homes sell faster in your neighborhood? It's not luck.
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That's not the engine. That's not the emotion that my music is running on. That is, of course, Jay-Z. I'm John Garamonica, one of the critics behind the New York Times' 30 Greatest Living American Songwriters Project.
We interviewed some of the songwriters on our list, including Taylor Swift, who hasn't sat for a video like this in a long time. Yeah, criticism has been a huge fuel for me, like a creative writing prompt or something. These are not ordinary conversations. These creative superstars are sharing parts of their process in ways that you rarely have access to.
On top of the mad task of picking only 30 people, we also went out and got some music world heavyweights to weigh in. Watch all the video interviews for free and check out the entire 30 Greatest Living American Songwriters Project at NYTIME.com slash 30Greatest or in the app. And let us know if you agree with our picks. I bet you won't.
Campbell, we learn everything that you just laid out after this awful shooting. And I think, quite naturally, a lot of people's first reaction is, wait a minute, how did this all go wrong? You have a state where lawmakers did something proactively. They passed the right flag law.
And you have a parent who did something proactively. She called the police on her own son. And then you have prosecutors who decide not to exercise the law to its fullest extent. And so at first blush, the blame here would seem to reside with the prosecutors.
That's what it seemed like in the immediate days afterwards. And the police themselves said, look, we did what we were supposed to do. The prosecutor makes that decision. Very explicitly saying this was not our obligation.
But on Monday. Thank you. I appreciate everybody being here today. My name is Ryan Mears.
I'm the Marion County prosecutor here in Indianapolis, Indiana. The prosecutor had a press conference where he explained what happened. I think it's important to note that this case does illustrate some of the shortcomings that exist with this red flag law. He basically said that the shortcomings of the law itself are what's to blame here.
And how does he explain that? What does he say? As you can tell from the timeline that we are under and operate under when we try to make the determination, we have 14 days under the statute. So there are several points that he points to.
One, that they only have 14 days to make this initial position, which he argued is simply too short. And because we have 14 days, our ability is severely limited. To build a case that you are eventually going to have to prove by a clear and convincing margin that a person presents a dangerous risk. Secondly, the tools to build that case.
It's civil, so you can't use search warrants and subpoenas in Indiana. You have 30 days to comply, so you don't have time to subpoena medical records. And so we are in the position of not having access to information that would honestly be very helpful to us in terms of making that determination. You just don't have time to build a case, especially in one like this, where you don't have time to prove that a layered order is necessary.
So he's saying these timelines, they just do not line up. A 14 day window to try to make a case for a layered order and a 30 day deadline for a subpoena that would produce the documents required to get that order. Right. And further, the prosecutor said that if they did pursue a petition and it was rejected by the judge, they might then have to return the shotgun that they had seized.
And so for us, the risk is if we move forward to that proceeding and we lose, that's what happens. That firearm goes right back to that person. We weren't willing to take that. And so that's the route we decided to go.
And that would put them in a worse position than they had started. Hmm. And finally, in Indiana, while this layered order is pending, which can take on average nine months, sometimes over a year, a person can go out and buy as many guns as they want. And this isn't just a theoretical thing.
This has actually happened. There was a case in 2018 where weapons were seized from a woman and the prosecutors filed a layered petition. And while it was working on its way to the court, she bought another weapon and shot her neighbor. Hmm.
So suddenly the question would seem to be, is this Indiana red flag law profoundly and even fatally flawed? What would defenders of the law say to that? Well, it depends on what you think it's designed for. However, if you look at the actual use of the law, since it's been in effect, more than two thirds of the layered petitions have involved cases where people have expressed suicidal intentions.
And more than a quarter have been about domestic violence situations. And in a study of the law in Indiana, for every 10 layered petitions, a suicide has been averted. And so given that suicide is the largest category of gun deaths, it is working for that reason. And of course, this began with Brandon Hole's mother expressing concerns that he might kill himself.
And they got the gun, which is part of the law. And that crisis seemed to have passed. So the law is not without its successes. You're saying especially when it relates to suicide.
But this law doesn't seem quite up to the task of preventing a mass shooting, of which there are now so many in the United States. And that is, I think, understandably what many people want and expect a red flag law to do, to play a big role in preventing mass shootings. Right. And so the argument from people I've spoken to this week said that you can't just look at one law as the answer to gun violence.
You have to have a whole framework of laws, background checks. Two dozen states or about two dozen states have a law that put temporary restrictions on gun ownership if you've been committed to a hospital for a very short amount of time, like Brandon Hole was. So rather than say a red flag law worked or didn't work, the argument from people who advocate for more gun regulation is that you need a number of laws. There's no cure-all.
That being said, the reason why people are so focused on red flag laws in places like Indiana is that they are the only gun measure that enjoys support from both Democrats and Republicans. And that's kind of all we have in the United States at this moment. So so much is riding on their effectiveness. Right.
This law was passed almost unanimously in a very Republican. Right. Thank you. state so it is a model for what can be done and what's politically feasible on this issue but it's obviously not the only thing it won't work by itself i wonder campbell since the case is being made by prosecutors that the flaws here are not in the enforcement but really they are in the law itself if lawmakers in indiana the ones who wrote the right flag law are thinking about where it appears this law may have fell short and are they talking about trying to fix it or pass a new law well some democrats have made that argument but the legislature is just about to adjourn so it's pretty clear nothing will happen immediately and to be honest when you talk to people who are making this case they're not very optimistic that anything will be done and why is that guns are a very popular issue among conservatives it's a rural state it's a conservative state and striking the balance between due process and public safety is very very hard right and it would seem for example like a natural fix would be extending that 14 day deadline to 30 days 60 days 90 days i'm betting the counter argument would be that that might theoretically infringe on the rights of gun owners by taking guns out of their hands for such a long period while the state tries to make its case that that person should not possess a gun right and i think about what the prosecutor said at the news conference on monday that to anyone who's read the law it's clear that the priority of the law is to return the firearms rather than provide a thoughtful and careful review of a person's mental health history to determine whether they should even have a firearm right he's saying this red flag law is not really enough about establishing red flags it's more about making sure people's right to bear arms are not being violated yes he explicitly says that i wonder if anyone has heard from the mother who took that pretty courageous step of going to the police precinct and saying there is a problem here and starting to try to engage this red flag law she's not spoken up publicly since the shooting but the family did put out a statement it reads we are devastated at the loss of life caused as a result of brandon's actions through the love of his family we tried to get him the help he needed our sincerest and most heartfelt apologies go out to the victims of the senseless tragedy we are so sorry for the pain and hurt being felt by their families and the entire indianapolis community we'll be right back hey i'm robert vinlon i'm from new york times games and i'm here talking to people about wordle and the wordle archive do you all play wordle i played every game all right i have something exciting to show you it's the wordle archive what okay that's awesome so now you can play every wordle that has ever existed there's like a thousand puzzles what wordle archive oh cool now you can do yesterday's wordle did you miss it yeah the york times game subscribers can now access the entire world archive find out more at nytimes.com slash games here's what else you need to know today today i'm announcing that the justice department has opened a civil investigation to determine whether the minneapolis police department engages in a pattern or practice of unconstitutional or unlawful policing on wednesday attorney general merrick garland began an investigation into the policies and conduct of the police in minneapolis following the murder conviction of derek children the investigation will seek to determine among other things whether the city's police use excessive force including during protests and whether they engage in discriminatory practices i strongly believe that good officers do not want to work in systems that allow bad practices good officers welcome accountability because accountability is an essential part of building trust with the community and public safety requires public trust and federal regulators have issued highly critical findings about the baltimore plant that was forced to throw out about 15 million doses of johnson johnson's covid19 vaccine after workers there contaminated doses the report cited multiple violations ranging from improper training to inadequate sanitation practices and the incorrect handling of waste after the contamination all vaccine production at the plant was shut down today's episode was produced by robert jimison luke vanderpluk and diana winn it was edited by dave shaw engineered by chris wood and contains original music by rochelle bonja and dan powell that's it for the daily i'm michael bavaro see you more if a good time sounds like or golden hour tastes like and getting back to yourself feels like you've got a sense of new brunswick you