How Much Does Your Name Matter? (Rebroadcast )

If you're a long-time listener of Freakonomic Radio, you may remember this episode. It's called How Much Does Your Name Really Matter? We first put it out back in 2013, and we're releasing it again now for two reasons. Number one, it's pretty good, and we think you like it.

And number two, next week's episode is a follow-up to this one, a challenge to it in some ways, so we want you to be fully prepared. Hope you enjoy. Golden Conley is a sociologist at Princeton. In 2014, he wrote a book called Parentology.

It's about, well, here, let's have him tell you. I think the subtitle says it all, which is a social scientist experiments on his kids, so you don't have to. But here they are. Okay, so here they are.

You guys want to introduce yourself? I don't care who goes first. Okay, I'm E like the letter. I'm 15, and I'm a student.

Okay, hi, E. I'm Yo, like the slang. I'm 13, and I'm a student, too. That's right.

Golden Conley named his daughter, E, and his son, Yo. But there's more. Can you give your full name? E Harper Nora Jeremijenko Conley.

Okay, so E is your first name? The capitalized E. The idea is that she can choose what it stands for. Right, so E, you still call yourself E at 15.

Do you do so happily? Yes, I love my name. I want your calls on your whole life. You can't really change it.

Yo, can you give us your full name? Yeah, sure. Yo, Shing, Haino, Augustus, Eisner, Alexander, Weiser, Knuckles, Jeremijenko, Conley. So Yo, okay, where's your first name?

Yo comes from where? I think it comes from the Y chromosome. And that we were confounding ethnic stereotypes, so there's plenty of Howard Chung's out there who assimilate to white America by how they choose their first name as a classic immigrant strategy. There aren't any Conleys who take the Chinese.

Right, go any other way. Yo was actually born with a slightly less complicated name. Yo, Augustus, Eisner, Alexander, Weiser, Jeremijenko, Conley. The Shing, Haino, Knuckles were added later.

It means about four. And what about the order where these names were dropped in, the Haino and the Knuckles? Whose choice was that? I think it's just pleasing to the ear.

So the obvious question is, why? Why such unusual, complicated names? To some degree, it's an experiment. Because Dalton Conley thinks that who you are, who you turn out to be, may be related to what you're called when you're born.

Of course, it's hard to separate out cause and effect here until Kim Jong-un allows me to randomly assign all the names of the North Korean kids. But I can't know that I'm weird because I was given a weird name or because my parents are weird and they pass that on. But my gut tells me that it does affect who you are and how you behave and probably makes you more creative to have an unusual name. All right, on balance, for both of you guys, would you say that having an unusual name has been a positive or negative overall?

Well, you can never really know because you can't live another life. But I do think that I'm grateful for my name. It has been a positive impact. What is it like to have a dad who's a sociologist who looks at children and people through a lens?

Well, it's trained me a lot in dealing with other adults because when I was a kid, he could know when I'm lying. So I got really good at lying and stuff. But it kind of sucks to be experimented on. All of a sudden, he's like, guess what, son?

You're not getting computer or TV for a month because I want to see how that goes. So you told me how you feel about having your name. But how do you feel about your parents giving you these names? Well, it doesn't really weigh on me at all anymore.

But there's a bunch of people on the Internet that get super mad about it, have these angry comments about any article about it. Like my dad's been called the retard of the decade and stuff. Wow. They're naming me that.

Really? Of the decade? F-tard. The F-tard of the decade.

And does that hurt your feelings or more on your desk? No, I found it really hilarious. From Stitcher and Dupner Productions, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dupner.

Hello, Freakonomics Radio. Hello, Freakonomics guys. Hello, I'm Dupner. I'm calling to tell you about my name.

So what do you think of someone who names his kids E and Yo? Now, that probably depends on a lot of things. Your personal preferences, also your religious and familial traditions. You may think it's clever and creative.

You may think it's silly, even cruel. Now, will E and Yo, the people, turn out to be different than if they'd been named Sarah and Jake? As E put it very wisely, Well, you can never really know because you can't live another life. You can't live another life.

And that's why it's hard to measure something like the effect of a name. My Freakonomics friend and co-author, Steve Levitt, he has spent his academic career trying to come up with clever ways to measure things. And he's thought quite a bit about the names we give our kids. I think ultimately all a name really does is it's a vehicle for the parents to signal what kind of person they are.

It's really a means of establishing. They are and or the kind of person that they hope their child will become. I don't even know if I think it's the second. I think it really is about the parents.

As I've studied naming, what I've come to believe is that the primary purpose when a parent gives a name is to impress their friends that they are whatever kind of person they want to be in. And I think some of the best evidence of this comes from the radical revolution in black names that happened in the 1970s. People don't really remember this, but if you go back to the 1960s, blacks and whites basically were giving their kids pretty much the same sets of names. Not really very different, a lot of overlap.

But within about a seven-year period in the 1970s, names just completely diverged. And among most African-Americans now are given names that virtually no whites have. So what we saw was in a period that really coincides with the black power movement and a very strong move away from the initial civil rights movement was that names changed completely. And many black parents decided, I think, that the identity they wanted for their children was one that was distinct from white culture.

Now, the fact is that black and white names a hundred years ago could be really different, too. Black baby boys were often given names that relatively few whites had. Ambrose and Booker, Moses and Percy. And the modern equivalents?

Deshaun and Marquise, Tyrone and Demetrius. Some years back, Steve Levitt started to wonder if these distinctively black names mattered. That is, whether they affected, for better or worse, the life of a kid with such a name. So Levitt did some research with Roland Fryer, an economist at Harvard, who was devoted to explaining the gap between blacks and whites in education, income, and culture.

We should note that Fryer has recently been placed on a two-year administrative leave for, quote, unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature. But here's Levitt again. We didn't really care about black names, per se. What Roland and I were trying to get at was black culture.

So the idea was, we knew that we observed really big differences in economic outcomes for African-Americans and for whites. We know we have really big cultural differences interfering with black economic success. And the difficulty whenever you start talking about things like culture is how do you quantify it? How do you capture what culture means in a way that an economist in data would find it?

And so what we settled on was the idea that you could use names as an indicator of culture because the set of names that parents choose are very different for blacks and whites and they also reflect the way that people think about the world. My name is Hala Nana Aladua Lafada. My parents are Ghanaian and Liberian and I'm first generation African-American. My first name is Shana.

It's a Jewish name, but people always seem to think I'm black. My name is Stephen and I'm coincidentally African-American. So people automatically assume that my name is Stephon when they're reading it, even though it's spelled S-P-E-P-H-E-N. So the ultimate question we wanted to answer is does your name matter for the economic life that you end up leading?

Are people who are, quote, saddled with distinctively black names facing a burden when they enter the labor market? So wanting to study names and having the right data set are two different things, but we managed to stumble onto an amazing data set that was kept by the state of California. It encompassed the birth certificate of every person born in the state of California between 1960 and the year 2000 and included the name of the baby, the first and last name, the first and last name of the mother and the maiden name of the mother, the hospital and the kind of health care that the mother had that gave you a hint at some of the economic circumstances. And this turned out to be the absolutely perfect data set to do what we wanted to do.

What we could do is we could match up two young African-American girls at birth, say born in 1965, who are born at the same hospital about the same time to a set of parents who on all the data we have look very similar, except that one of those sets of parents give their daughter a distinctively black name, like Shanique was saying, and the other set of parents give their baby a more traditional white name like Ann or Elizabeth. So what do we do? We follow those girls. We fast forward, say, 25 years into the future when those girls grow up in California the kind of lives they're leading, whether they have fancy health care, whether they're married, how old they are when they have babies, things like that.

And we get a glimpse into the economic life. It's not perfect. We certainly don't know anything about them, but we know certain things about them. And we were able to see something quite remarkable, which is that the name that you were given at birth seemed not to matter at all to your economic life.

Remember that conclusion. The name you were given at birth does not seem to matter at all to your economic life. In other words, it's not the name your parents give you. It's the kind of parents you have in the first place.

And different kinds of parents, of course, choose different kinds of names. So let's say two similar families, both African-American, each have a baby girl. One is called Molly, which it happens is one of the whitest girls' names in America. And the other is called Latanya, which is a distinctively black name.

Now, if decades later, Molly becomes, let's say, a professor at Harvard and Latanya is just barely scraping by, well, the reason won't be because Latanya's parents named her Latanya. Begin, if you would, just by introducing yourself, say your name and what you do. Sure, I'm Latanya Sweeney. I'm a professor of government and technology here at Harvard.

Okay, so there you go. At Harvard, Latanya Sweeney studies how technology can help solve society's problems. In the course of doing so, she occasionally discovers a new problem. Like the day not long ago when she and a colleague named Adam Tanner were working in her office.

He and I were working on a different project and he needed to find a paper of mine. So he went to my computer and Googled my name and along with the links to various papers and so forth, this ad popped up to the right that said Latanya Sweeney arrested. And I basically almost fell out of the chair because one, I'd never been arrested. And then my name is so unusual that it's hard to imagine that that could have been a mistake.

And the name appeared right in the ad. So then we typed in his name and his name, a white male name, Adam Tanner, and the same company had an ad, but the ad just said looking for Adam Tanner. It was very neutral. It didn't have any, the word arrested didn't show up, no reference to a criminal record.

So did you immediately become suspicious or did you just think, well, this is some kind of one-off and let me explore further? Well, right. I mean, on the one hand, you think it's one-off but on the other hand, it's something kind of fluky. But on the other hand, you're like, well, why did it happen?

And so we began just entering names and all kinds of names and we spent a couple of hours doing so. The ads were for a company called Instant Checkmate, which sells public records. The ads appear when you do a Google search for the first and last name name searchers to see if they could find a pattern to the ads. And we began focusing on LaTanya versus Tanya.

And what we found in each of those cases was if you had LaTanya with a last name, you got an ad suggesting that you have an arrest record. And if you typed in Tanya with a last name, you didn't. And then Adam jumps to this conclusion. He says, oh, I get it.

They're coming up. The arrest ads are coming up when there's a black sounding name. And I said, that's impossible. That's crazy talk.

And I eventually got to the point where I said, okay, I'm a scientist. Let me put on my official science hat and start from step one and I'm going to show Adam he's wrong. That was the whole goal was to show him he was wrong. The goal was never to write a paper.

The goal was to show Adam he was wrong. The first step for Sweeney was to simply define what is a black name and what is a white name. So she assembled some data which included the lists that we created for our first book for economics of the whitest and blackest names among baby boys and girls. So the white female names were Molly, Amy, Claire, Emily, Katie, Madeline, Caitlin, and Emma.

The black female names, Imani, Ebony, Shanice, Elia, Precious, Nia, Deja, Diamond, LaTanya, and Leticia. The white male names were Jake, Connor, Tanner, Wyatt, Cody, Dustin, Luke, and Jack. And the black male names, In order to prompt the Google ads, Sweeney needed to find real first and last names, some black and some white. So she would type in a search like Shanice, PhD, or Molly, MBA to find real people, some of whom were, like herself, professionals.

And then she would feed those real names back into Google to see what ads they would prompt. So break it down for me, LaTanya. Having a distinctively black first name makes it how likely to prompt an ad for an arrest record and compare that to having a distinctively white name then? Well, a black-identified name was 25% more likely than a white-identified name to get an ad suggestive of an arrest record.

All right, so you may be thinking that that makes sense because the average black American is more likely to get arrested than the average white American. Well, what's interesting is that these ads appear regardless of whether the company actually has a criminal record for that name in their database. As you probably know, Google makes most of its money with a program called Google Ads, which used to be known as AdWords. It serves ads that are linked to the content that you search for.

Advertisers, like Instant Checkmate, agree to pay a certain amount each time their ad is clicked on. They provide Google. with several versions of ad text, and they can specify which keywords, or in this case, which key names, will prompt each version of the ad. It is, of course, in the best interest of both Google and the advertiser to serve the ads that will get the most clicks.

The idea of the Google algorithm is it says, okay, we don't know which of these five versions of ads are going to make the most money. So what we're going to do is we're going to let the algorithm learn over time which one tends to get the most clicks. So at first, all five ad copies, say, for Ebony Jones, are equally likely to appear, and so it would randomly pick one on a search for Ebony Jones to display it. If that one gets clicked, it gets weighted, and so over time, the one having the heaviest weight will get displayed more often.

If we assume for a moment that Instant Checkmate had placed the ads somewhat roughly the same text for all the names evenly. Let's just assume that's the case. Then an explanation of what we're seeing is it's basically some kind of bias effect from society. So people see an arrest ad for a black name, they tend to click it, but when they see the arrest ad associated with a white name, they tend to ignore it.

Okay, so this is important, though, because when you come out with a finding like this, most people immediately want to search for the villain. You're saying the villain might be the company, the villain might be Google, and the villain might be all of us. Right. So let's get back to your name.

So when your name first showed up, when Adam searched for your name on your computer, and the ad that was generated said, Latanya Sweeney arrested. Take me down the road now from there to why that matters. What it implies, what it made you feel personally about your name being there, and more broadly, what's wrong with that? In terms of, for me personally, it was really the shock factor, you know, that I had never been arrested, and it's kind of, you don't want that associated with you.

You know, like, why should that be associated with my name or my image to anyone? When I put my scientific hat on, the question was, what does racial discrimination really mean, and how do you operationalize it scientifically or statistically? And so racial discrimination basically results when a person or a group of people are being treated differently. You either give or withhold benefits, facilities, services, opportunities, there might be some kind of economic loss or something along those lines that they would otherwise be entitled to, but they're being denied it on the basis of race.

The other thing that I looked to in terms of structuring how this fit into societal norms versus technology was realizing that searching online, especially when the ads are delivered by such a huge service like Google Ads, it almost begins to harbor this notion of structural racism, that is that you can't help but it foster a discriminatory outcome. So two people are in contact. I Google one name, and I end up with an arrest ad. I Google the other name, and there's no implication of an arrest ad.

Even if I never click it, it has the difference of that implication. So even though you obviously have a good job now, did it concern you for your future? No. No, I tell you, when I got really moved in that regard, it was more looking at the faces of the names of these young PhD students and people who were just launching their careers.

There was one name, I forget which name it is, but I remember it was a young woman. She was so proud she had just published her first paper. She was a graduate student in a PhD program. And there's her name, and there's this ad arrested and how wrong that was.

It just seemed so wrong. For the record, a Google spokesperson told us that, quote, AdWords does not conduct any racial profiling. It is up to individual advertisers to decide which keywords they want to choose to trigger their ads, end quote. Instant Checkmate didn't respond to our query, but an official statement from the company about Latanya Sweeney's study says, quote, Instant Checkmate would like to state unequivocally that it has never engaged in racial profiling in Google AdWords and that we have absolutely no technology in place to even connect a name with a race, end quote.

So, whoever the villain is here, and it may be us, the people who click, the point is that in this case, your name matters. Now, remember, Steve Levitt and Roland Fryer's research found that your name doesn't affect your economic outcome. But you can certainly imagine a circumstance wherein Latanya Sweeney, before she got hired at Harvard, let's say, might have suffered the consequences of her name if an HR person was Googling her and saw that arrested ad, even if the HR person didn't bother to click on the ad. And even though Latanya Sweeney herself hadn't been arrested, it could certainly change the calculus of a hiring decision, don't you think?

When we come back, we'll tally up the score. Does your name matter or doesn't it? And we will look at the naming patterns among conservative families, which tend to be pretty conservative, and liberal families. Educated liberal mothers tend to be choosing names that sort of are obscure cultural references.

And so these are the Esmes and the Unas and the Archimedes and the Emersons. And we think this is a way that liberals sort of signal their cultural, for lack of a better word, their sense of cultural superiority. Hi, my name is Rocket, Heather Wimk, and I live in Denver, Colorado. I'm 10 years old, and I think my name Rocket is actually kind of cool, and other people think it is.

My dad's a rocket engineer, so a lot of people think that my name Rocket was because of him, but actually, this is the opposite. He was in college when I was born, and then when I was one or two, he got out of college and was looking for a job and tried out for this rocket engineer interview. And so when he was in the interview, he mentioned that his son's name was Rocket, and so he got the job. So I kind of think he got the job because of me.

And my sister wants me to mention that her name is Roxanne. My name is Harry Gil Potter. Sometime around 2000, all of a sudden, every time I went to the airport to try to use my credit card, suddenly everybody thought it was really, really funny. Hi, my name is Shardney Pickard.

My sister's name is Paris. My parents' name is Shardney and Paris because it related to where we were conceived. My dad always said that it was better than being named before, which is probably some other good construction story. Hi, my name is Ellen, Ellen Chang.

But actually, my formal name on my passport is Chang Chang Chang. That is a translation of my Chinese name. Originally in Chinese, it was actually pronounced Chang-Ting-Ti, but it became Chang Chang Chang, which is weird. So the economist Steve Levitt and Roland Fryer went through decades of baby name data and concluded that the name you give your child does not move the needle on that child's future economic life.

But there's other research which finds that a name may matter, at least on some dimensions. Boys with feminine names, it's been argued, act up more in school. A girl with a masculine name, meanwhile, is more likely to have a successful legal career. And another study by Marianne Bertrand and Sendhil-Loinathon was called Are Emily and Greg More Employable Than Lakeisha and Jamal?

This study found that if you send out a resume with a white-sounding name, it's about 50% more likely to get a callback than an identical resume where all you've done is change the name to a black-sounding name. So, which argument is right? Does the name matter or does it not matter? I think that both could be right.

There are ways to reconcile them. So let's start with the audit studies. Let's see, let it again. The audit study is the one with the resumes.

So in the audit studies, what researchers do is take identical resumes and they just change the name, the first name, so that one name is distinctively black and another name isn't. And they send it out to employers and see whether there's a callback. And what they find every time is that if you have a distinctively black name, you're less likely to get a callback. So how can that be reconciled with the fact that in our data, in real-life data, how people actually lived, the names didn't seem to matter?

Well, I think the answer comes in a couple different ways. The first is that just because you get a callback doesn't mean that you're likely to get a job. And so to the extent that there are discriminatory employers out there and those discriminatory employers are using your name to figure out whether or not you're black, then indeed the worst thing you could possibly do would be to show up for an interview, if you are black, with a white name and have wasted all day, you know, trunding downtown to do the interview for a discriminatory employer who's not going to hire you anyway. Now, that's one possibility.

The other possibility is that there are two different kinds of labor markets. There's a sort of formal labor market that involves resumes and applying, and really hardly anybody gets jobs that way. That's not the typical way people get jobs. And your black name might hurt you in that segment, but it might actually help you in other areas.

So you can certainly imagine that within the black community, having a distinctively black name would help you get along better with people, signal that you're part of the community, and might work in your favor in all sorts of informal networks that aren't captured in these audit data. Hi, this is DeeDee Jones, but my first name is actually Radina. My parents very romantically named me Radina after themselves, Raymond and Dina. However, in the mid-'80s, when applying for jobs in Denver, used Radina Jones on my resume and got a big fat zero number of responses.

Now, newly met at CTA, a pretty marketable kind of person back then, sent out resume after resume with no response, changed my resume name to DeeDee Jones rather than Radina Jones, and instantly started getting responses. So I think I might be the blondest, most blue-eyed person ever discriminated against based on a name that sounded very, very ugly. All right, let's get beyond black and white names. The fact is that your name will probably not affect your life too much in any significant way, but it can tell people a little something about who your parents are.

There are patterns to be gleaned from names data, not only ethnic and religious patterns, but clues about your parents' values and their social standards. Yeah, one of the most predictable patterns when it comes to names is that almost every name that becomes popular starts out as a high-class name or a high-education name. So in these California data we had, we could see the education level of the parents. And even the names that eventually become the, quote, trashiest kinds of names, so the Tiffany's and the Brittany's and I'll probably get myself in trouble and the Caitlin's and things like that, start at the top of the income distribution.

And over the course of 20 or 30 or 40 years, they migrate their way down, becoming more and more popular among the less educated set. And as names become popular among the less educated, the higher educated parents absolutely abandon these names and don't want anything to do with them. We named our daughter Esme, you know, because it's this kind of obscure literary reference to a J.D. Salinger short story.

As a way of signaling to other people, oh, if you know that Esme references J.D. Salinger, you'll know of our, you know, great intellect. That's Eric Oliver. I'm a professor of political science at the University of Chicago.

Okay, and what's a successful political scientist like you doing mucking around in the baby name research, Kato? Well, I was very interested in this question of ideological polarization. We hear a lot these days about liberals and conservatives, and particularly about how liberals drive Volvos, drink lattes, listen to NPR, conservatives drive trucks, watch that. And I wanted to see if there was any truth to these allegations.

And the difficulty is when you look at consumer products, is that consumer products are marketed to specific groups. And a lot of products, what may look like a conservative or a liberal product, may be more a function of region or social class and not necessarily a product of ideology per se. So is Subaru a liberal car, or is this Subaru a car that's more likely to be driven in snowy mountain roads, which typically are more liberal-voking areas? But baby names, Eric Oliver figured, were a pretty straight-up indicator of, well, something.

Baby names, what at first glance may seem like a relatively frivolous kind of concept, they're incredibly powerful indicators of status, of aspiration, of taste, and identity. And so we thought, wow, baby names would be a great place to look. If we were really interested, do liberals and conservatives have fundamentally different tastes? Also, do liberals and conservatives exhibit any systematic differences in how they signal to each other or to the rest of the country what their tastes are, what their values are?

And do these signals penetrate more than just say something like a bumper sticker or a t-shirt with a political slogan, but actually influence other ways that they sort of act and talk and behave in society? Eric Oliver, like Steve Levitt, used the very rich database from the state of California. In addition to listing every baby born, it listed information about the mother, including age, race, education level, and zip code, from which it's easy to figure out whether the family lives in a predominantly liberal or conservative neighborhood. So as a mother becomes better educated, she's much more likely to give her boy or girl a popular name and much less likely to give her an uncommon or unique name.

And one of the statistics that just leaps out at us about this is that amongst African-American mothers with less than a high school degree, 36% of them give their daughters a unique name. Now, just the statistical probability that you could give your child a name that nobody else would have is really kind of remarkable. You think about it as a sort of active imagination. It's pretty astounding.

Let me ask you this, though. So you're saying that generally, higher income families, higher status families, tend to use more popular names. But we should distinguish, and I may be wrong here, but let me ask you, once you get over a certain level of education, the most highly educated families then tend to go a little bit more into the less popular, more cutting-edge names, or no? Well, this is where ideology starts to have an effect.

Amongst educated white mothers, mothers with some college education or a college degree, by and large, they tend to favor more common or popular names for their children than most educated white mothers, except when you start talking about their ideology. Suddenly, you get a big difference here. And what you find is that conservative mothers are much more likely to stay with and choose common or popular names, but liberal mothers now are starting to choose more uncommon names. A liberal mother is about 50% more likely to give her girl an uncommon or unique name than a conservative mother.

And she's about 40% more likely to give her boy an uncommon or unique name compared to a conservative mother. Now, there's a big difference between the uncommon names that an educated liberal mother is giving her child versus an uneducated, non-ideological mother. Our less educated mothers, when they're giving unique or uncommon names, they're oftentimes either taking a normal name and giving it a very weird spelling, like Madison with two eyes, or they're just making a name up that has never existed before, like Doringa. Whereas our educated liberal mothers tend to be choosing names that sort of are obscure cultural references.

And so these are the Esmes and the Unas and the Archimedes and the Emersons. And we think this is a way that liberals sort of signal their cultural, for lack of a better word, their sense of cultural superiority, is a way to signal a great cultural capital. Why don't you tell me the central finding of this about the sounds of liberal versus conservative names? So we weren't just interested in sort of the categories of name, whether it was a popular or unpopular name.

We were also interested, do liberals and conservatives choose different sounding kinds of names? One thing that was particularly fascinating to us was this idea that conservatives tend to be drawn to more kind of masculine, paternalistic kind of metaphors in their political rhetoric, and that liberals tend to be drawn to more nurturing, feminine kinds of metaphors in their political rhetoric. And we wanted to test this out and see that, well, does this also influence name choice? And would conservatives choose more masculine-sounding types of names and liberals choose more feminine-sounding kinds of names?

Well, then that makes the question, what's a feminine-sounding name and what's a masculine-sounding name? Boys' names are more likely to have hard consonants to be monosyllabic. Kurt. Yeah, Kurt's.

And they have that er sounds that are very common in boys' names. They're more likely to have that o, like kind of joe. Whereas girls' names are much more likely to end in a schwa-a sound, like ella or... and they're much more likely to have L's in them and they're much more likely to end in an E sound.

So L's and vowel endings for girls and boys, kind of short, stout, compact, hard consonants, roughly? Right. So what we find is that by and large, conservatives choose more masculine-sounding names for both boys and girls. And liberals are much more likely to choose feminine-sounding names for both boys and girls.

And so if you really want to know the most quintessentially ideological-sounding names, let's compare the Obama girls and the Palin kids. So the Obama girls are Sasha and Malia, very nice, feminine, soft-sounding names. And then think about the Palin kids. We have Trigg, Track, Bristol, and Piper.

There's Willow there, too, and I think that was an ideological hiccup on some of the parts. All right, so let me just ask you off the top of your head, Eric, let's say that you, now knowing what you know about this research, were to see two houses on a hill, one on each hill. And the one is a high-income, very ideologically liberal family, and the other is a high-income, ideological conservative family. And they're all white, and both families have ten children, okay?

I want you to name the ten children in each of the households, please. Just tell me what you think they'd be. Sure, say the five boys and five girls in each house. Sure, if you want, okay.

Okay. So in a conservative house, the boys would be likely to be something like Andrew, Ethan, Dylan, Caleb, and Carter. The girls would have names like Casey, McKenzie, Jordan, Taylor, and Sarah. In our liberal house, we would have some of the same names, because there are a lot of names that go across ideology, so we'd probably find another Ethan in the liberal house.

But we'd more likely find a Joshua, a Dylan, a Charlie, and a Leaf among the boys. The girls would have much more distinct kinds of names. They would have names like Lola, Mia, Thea, Eliana, and Ruby. Gotcha.

So I guess the question is this, though. Most signaling, it strikes me, is done subconsciously at best, but not overtly consciously. In fact, I guess I'm saying most people would never admit to saying, I want to give my child an X name or a Y name so that people will know that I am X or Y. Do you agree or no?

Oh, I very much agree. And that's what's fascinating about this, is that there are these trends happening in names, but I don't think that people who are giving in names are conscious of the forces that are influencing their own behaviors and decisions. And this is common with baby names. I mean, everyone thinks that they're choosing, oh, a name that's just so special for their child, and it's only when they get to the playground, and there are half a dozen of the L's there.

They realize that, oh, you know, maybe I'm part of a social trend. Hi, my name is Stephen Daniel Fast. My name is Stephen William Ziggott. First name is Steve.

Never Stephen. Stephen with a P-H. You come with a V. If you use a V, I'll become very aggressive and refuse cash checks.

So, Levitt, you and I share a first name, although we spell it differently. You go for the V. I've got the P-H. I have to tell you, last time I looked, the P-H was definitely the higher end of the two names, although obviously you're higher end than me, so how much can that really say?

Yeah, my parents missed the boat. By the time they named me Steve was in serious decline. I was the tail end of the Stevens. You're a few years older than me.

Your parents were definitely hipper than me. No, no, no, plus they were just looking for the good saint. But our names, especially if you combine the two spellings, we were, I think, top three or four in the country at the time. Have you looked at it lately, Stephen?

I haven't, but I know we're almost impossible to find right now. Let me ask you this. So, when we wrote about names in Freakonomics, we made it pretty clear that naming is not destiny, right? That was really one of the single biggest takeaways.

In fact, we told the story of these two brothers in New York whose parents had named them Loser and Winner. And the fact was that Loser turned out to have a great life as an upstanding citizen. He was a police detective. And Winner had been a career criminal.

And we told that story to reinforce the point that naming is not destiny. However, do you find that a lot of people who read Freakonomics get it or remember it exactly wrong? Yeah, it is amazing how everyone thinks that we said the opposite. People want so badly to believe that name to destiny.

And what's funny, I mean, the ultimate is Morgan Spurlock in the Freakonomics movie. He gets a chapter on names and he does it completely backwards. And we tell him that it's completely backwards. And he's completely unbothered by the fact that he's gotten it completely backwards and makes names destiny.

It's just an example, Dubner, of how you and I, we can do whatever we want, but nobody cares in the end. People will read it, they'll talk about it, they'll say how great it is, and then they just do the opposite. So what Levitt is talking about is the Freakonomics documentary that came out a couple years ago. It was made by a bunch of different directors, each of them focusing on a different chapter of the book.

Morgan Spurlock did the chapter about names. Now, as you just heard Levitt say, the film version seemed to come to some different conclusions than the book. So we called up Morgan, full name Morgan Valentine Spurlock, by the way, to get his take. I have to disagree with Dr.

Levitt here because what we started to find in the course of making the film is that names can make a difference. And even though data starts to show you that ultimately at the end of the day, for most people, it doesn't at all. People are still going to do what ultimately they believe is going to be best for their child. And it may work in the end, most of the time it doesn't, but that's never going to stop someone from believing that the one name they give their kid is going to put that kid in a better place down the road.

Because we all like to believe that our kids are somehow more special. No matter what's happened in the past, no matter what historically has been proven, that somehow our one kid is going to be the one that breaks out from what everyone else has had happened to them in the past. One thing that most of us probably can agree on, just about every parent thinks that his or her kid is special on some level. And part of what makes each of our kids special is the names we give them.

But from what we can tell, your name is not your destiny. Even if your name is Destiny, or Esme, or Archimedes, or Kurt. It is true that your name may tell the world something, maybe even something fairly significant, about your parents' religious or ethnic background, their level of income or education, maybe even their politics. But just think about it for a minute.

Think about all the things that make you you. Your intelligence, your taste, your health, your work ethic, and morals, and decision-making, to say nothing of luck. Now, considering all of those heavyweight forces, how much could something as superficial as a name really affect your life's outcome? Plus which, if you really think your name is holding you back, it's not hard to change it.

You remember the Conley family? The dad is Dalton. He's the sociologist at Princeton. And he named his kids Yo and E.

They have thought about names more than any other family I know. So I figured they'd be good people to ask about this. Let me ask you one last thing. So my name is extremely boring, Steven.

There are a lot of people my age named Steve or Steven. I meet him all the time. And honestly, it's kind of a letdown. It's like you meet someone new, and you kind of want him to be something interesting, and it's like, oh, you're Steve also.

You don't feel some camaraderie or that you're a member of a club? Less than that. I'm a member of a club that I don't want to belong to. It's just boring.

But I don't have the courage or whatever to give myself a new name. Since you guys are so good at having a lot of names and giving yourself alternatives, can you give me a name? Can you rename me? Eyelash.

Perfect. Signing off for Freakonomics Radio, this is Eyelash Dubner. Thank you for joining us, E, Yo, and Dalton. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks. Coming up next week, a further challenge to the argument that names don't matter. That's the thing with research.

We're only interested in the end result. The study shows this. But we miss everything in between. We speak with someone who spent a lot of time thinking about her own name.

Dr. Marijuana, Pepsi, and Dyke. And thinking about how students with distinctively black names may be treated differently in the classroom. There was a teacher sitting at the table in front of him.

My test scores are going to be SHIT. I'm sick of this SHIT. It's next time on Freakonomics Radio. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Dubner Productions.

This episode was produced by Catherine Wells. Our staff includes Allison Craiglow, Matt Hickey, Harry Huggins, Zach Lipinski, Greg Rippin, and Corinne Wallace. Our intern is Daphne Chen. Our theme song is Mr.

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