This week on Stack and Growth Called to Action, Sydney Waterfall makes a welcome return to chat with the Refine Labs team about folding quantitative data into qualitative feedback for a more holistic picture on marketing and attribution. She talks with the challenges of navigating the constantly shifting landscape and marketing, how to leverage the right tools, and how to align efforts with customer voices for impactful growth. Hope y'all enjoy! Welcome to Stack and Growth Called to Action, a show for the Trailblazers, change makers, and paradigm shifters.
Each week a different marketing hero who is called to make a change in their field will join us to walk through each step of their journey. They'll cover the highs, the lows, and what's coming next. Together we'll help you find the changes needed for your own business to win. I'm Steph Grignola here with Evan Hughes, and today we are so excited to welcome VP of Marketing at Open Brand, Sydney Waterfall.
Sydney has been a trailblazer in the effort to bridge the attribution gap with Refine Labs and Beyond, and is here today to talk about how you can use qualitative feedback, including self-reported attribution but not limited to, in your data strategy. Sydney, thanks so much for coming back to us! It feels good, it feels good to be back with the old crew. We're really excited to have you here.
I'm excited to learn a lot in this next several minutes. Let's start by talking a little bit about your path into marketing and maybe specifically the experiences you've had when you've been encouraged to focus mostly on quantitative data or when qualitative data has been largely ignored. I started actually my career in sales, which I don't know if a lot of people know that, right out of college. I'm actually very grateful for that because I feel like it made me a better marketer, maybe a more empathetic marketer.
When I got into marketing, I just started on the demand campaign side and lived there for a while and then have been trying to expand my skill set ever since. So startup tech, SaaS is kind of my niche. Obviously I was at refine labs for a while, working with talented people there and getting to immerse myself in so many different companies, which was really like a career accelerator. I moved on to work at Passetto and kind of do some additional consulting there.
And then more recently I went back in-house at a company called Open Brand and as their VP of marketing to really stand up the marketing function. And the main motivation for going back in-house was I've learned so much, but now this is my case study on myself. Like, okay, let's put your money where your math is. You've been consulting.
You've been telling people what to do. And seeing good results through other people executing, right? But let's talk the talk. Let's walk the walk.
So that's what I'm trying to do now. That's kind of where I'm at. And then when it comes to qualitative and quantitative data, I think people who, and this is anybody not just marketing, but business people who understand how to leverage both qualitative and quantitative data and when to lean into either one a little harder, depending on the situation, like truly have a competitive advantage. And those are the type of people that you're like, ah, something they're really confident about gut feeling maybe, but that gut feeling is not necessarily gut feeling.
But from outside looking in, it may kind of come off like that. And I've worked for people like that that are just lawless at doing that. So I think that to me is like a core skill set to really own and figure out something I'm working on and really passionate about. But also, it's an end statement.
It's never an or statement. So I think, you need to like, early in my career, I was like all in and quant and I was like running reports and I was like obsessed with Marchetto and campaign members and, you know, attribution, back when we gated everything and it was a much different era. And like over the past four to five years has really shifted the mix of that. I think you said it perfectly right coming into sales function.
The entire or coming up through a sales role, everything's rooted in numbers, right? How many calls did you make? What are the conversion rates on those calls? What are the pipeline targets?
Like, everything's really benchmarks against some sort of goal. And it doesn't matter that feeling you have on those calls. It doesn't matter who's saying what because at the end of the day, that doesn't translate to any sort of revenue. And I think that that was a hard adjustment and still is for a lot of us marketers, especially is like, no, I'm seeing signals that are a bit different, right?
Just because the number is saying one thing, but I'm actually like, if I'm going to test out a demo and or look for a product, I know exactly the angle that I'm going. It's usually sliding into a DM, avoiding the path to demo form, waiting for the SDR to reach out. But it's like going directly to somebody and saying, hey, you've used this product, tell me about it. I think you have a lot of valuable background because you've gone through this at Refine Labs, especially.
But what was that moment where you kind of saw that pivotal shift and you knew things needed to change that really like qualitative data capture can be a valuable addition to the quantitative aspects of all sort of marketing and sales functions. So I think the thing that really forced it was, you know, the end of the lead gen era, but the transition of the like only like only thing you do is legion, right? You know, people still do lead gen today, but I think that people that do it well is executed in a much different strategy where before it was like, that is the strategy. So, you know, when the pivotal moment was right before actually I joined Refine Labs, I was working at a company called Ally.io.
We were okay, our startup and we started executing, we started executing campaigns in LinkedIn with our sales team and like our target account list of like 100 accounts. Like we were being so tailored, we had creative, so like back then it was like a new thing to do now. It's like that's boldness. But we were doing custom creative, I was like calling out the specific job title, not job function and running it to that job title at these specific accounts.
And we were very aligned with sales. We're kind of doing this as like a test to say like, I don't care if it comes with we have trial and motion. I don't care if it comes into a trial. I don't care if it comes from a demo.
We don't care if it comes in from outbound. Like we need to go get this account. And I vividly remember Zillow was one of our accounts on our target account list. And you see y'all could know, you guys haven't been stepping on like very obsessed with data.
This is like a for foyer. I could remember certain accounts of like opportunities that deals for like years ago. But I have no idea what I want to eat at dinner. So like, it's the way my mind works is wild.
My husband's like, what is that going on? Anyways. But so we deployed this strategy where they went outbound approach, we had ads going, it's kind of like, you know, like a true type of our first attempt at like an EBM type of focus. And the only way we were measuring it is like, did they come into the funnel?
Not where did they come into the funnel? And how did they come into the funnel? And we ended up winning Zillow. It was like our biggest like enterprise deal.
We like fully like not just within a department in Zillow, like full Zillow. Obviously. Yeah. So it was huge, right?
And we had people from Zillow commenting on our ads. And so I could just, I saw this. And I saw like, we had one person come into a trial. We had people from Zillow commenting our ads.
We had our outbound team like getting like higher reply rates. So I could kind of see this whole like ecosystem multi-channel play running. But if you looked at me and said, okay, well, what's the cost for like actually my leadership was looking at me at the time? And was like, well, what's the cost for MQL?
How many things have you sourced from LinkedIn? And I was like, well, we just met like five grand on LinkedIn for this whole quarter for this campaign. And we sourced X amount of counts into the funnel and like didn't land. Didn't go well.
Even though we got those accounts into the funnel. So that was like the moment where I was like, I see things are shifting and I want to be a part of that shift. And I really want to get into qualitative data. And when we were on the calls, like our VP of sales, who I still talk to today, shout out Chris.
Like when we were on the calls, they would comment and be like, oh, yeah, like we see you everywhere. Like I saw this like crazy ad that you did. And like, so again, I'm like more of those qualitative kind of points of view, which was so validating to the spend that we I was deploying and taking out of other campaigns to deploy. And I was doing that because I thought it was right, not because some report told me to or like LinkedIn ads told me to do it.
So that was like really a shift. And then that's like kind of what motivated me to like come over to refine labs and like really lean in and then just go go go hard at that. Yeah, I think following your gut a little bit right in that scenario, so you recognize it. You see some of those patterns.
Because the idea that all marketing dollars have some sort of return is immediate return is a bit of a mild flop. Well, I think and it often optimizes down to zero growth. And so you talk a little bit about like your journey about you needing to make like an educated guess and how qualitative is key for you to do that. Right.
So the signals you were hearing to like the Zillow transaction and all those people coming in. What's like another way that like people can kind of build out to get that qualitative. Yeah, back loop. So to speak, like what are some of the entry points that you see or some of the angles that you can take versus just like traditional marketing motions.
Yeah, so I I'm very like tactical as you both know, so examples of like how we're doing this at Open Brand. Because I also think it's like I think it's more valuable to the audience when you can actually go through an example and then talk through it and then they can relate like how would I deploy this in my situation. So number one, I think when you have an audience size or audience stage that you're trying to prove out or you're trying to like do something new with you likely are not going to have the quantitative data that you need to like deploy something or try something new. Or go after a new segment.
So I'll give you an example. Like for us at Open Brand, Open Brand is a is four companies that kind of combined into one about a year ago. And we're marketing to the top key accounts. We have like a core set of accounts we really care about and we're prioritizing and those accounts are very valuable to us.
So my audience size is not everybody in the US that owns business. So when I look at this, I'm not going to have the audience size and the scale to have like measurable quantitative insights quickly. It's just like logistically not possible. There's not enough accounts.
There's not enough people. So like, I think you need to take that into account when you're looking at like, do I do quantitative qualitative? How do I blend these things together? Most of the time when you try something and you're not going to have a lot of quantitative data and it's going to take you well to get it.
So like, that's just kind of wasted. Yeah, budget, audience size, all these things are like very, you know, variables that you need to consider. So a couple of things that we, I'll walk you through a couple of scenarios, right? So LinkedIn was something that was kind of up and running and like, okay, like let's look at LinkedIn and let's just start with one channel.
In addition to like your website and your foundational type of stuff that you're doing, but I was used to LinkedIn as an example. I wanted to see, okay, from a personal brand perspective, is personal brand, founder brand going to really work with this audience, right? Is this not a marketing? Like I would say it's not a B2B marketing, sales audience or HR audience that like, you know, is trying to true on LinkedIn.
But from what I know, working with a lot of companies that are kind of like, you don't have to have one of those audiences on LinkedIn to make LinkedIn work. So I was like, let's, you know, let's kind of see what's going on here. So our CEO does, you know, I work with him and we work with a company to kind of help with his content and kind of getting his brand out there to core people. Again, we're not trying to make him into like a like top LinkedIn voice, right?
Like we're trying to be very targeted with that. So one thing that I was observing, I was like, man, our engagement rate per post is like, not what I'm used to seeing because I'm used to like seeing Chris Walker and Megan Bowen and Evan's posts and engagement system to the roof. And so I was like, okay, how can I look at the quantitative data, which is like the engagements, the impressions, the follower growth, all of that. But now it's the quantitative data.
So every now and then we get LinkedIn DMs that come through real, right? From people who are never active. We look at people saying that they saw something on LinkedIn or, oh yeah, I saw about this on LinkedIn, never active. Like we started seeing, this is after we added ads and it doesn't really matter if it came from ads or from personal brand, but we started seeing a few things come through self-report attribution.
That said, LinkedIn. And so I'm like, okay, this has validated to me that it doesn't need to be necessarily about engagement. Our audience, when I look at our audience on LinkedIn, they are lurkers. They are not engagers.
So like I looked at all of these profiles of these people who have engaged with us and they do nothing on LinkedIn. They don't comment. They don't put it. But they're lurking.
Yes, they're ghosts. They're lurkers. So like to me, that's a big example of like, okay, we need to shift the KPI and like shift the focus a little bit more away from quantitative of like growing engagement rate, making sure impression growth month over month is growing from the personal brand standpoint and just make sure that we're connecting with the right people and we're being proactive about connecting with the right people and bringing the right people into the audience. But it's more about creating quality content and unfortunately for me, the engagement rate is not going to like be the key measure of like what content is resonating in that.
It would be great if it was. No data on that. Yeah, like and we've talked to some customers that they're like, oh yeah, like I would never ever comment on something I've been like that's cringe. And that's like totally fine, but they're on there, right?
And same thing on the outside. We deployed kind of just, you know, some basic ads or budgets very conservative or just kind of testing and learning. And I just wanted to validate the audience because as you do that a little bit easier than organic and then I want to see what percent of our target audience is actually on LinkedIn and we're actually able to serve to them, they get either logging in and doing something. Yeah, what is our audience penetration rate?
What's our reach within there? And so I can see what that is. And then the qualitative input again is I get through like email, like someone will send something out. This is a perfect example.
We send something out. We launched something really new and quick in response to a lot of the tariffs, which are impacting our customers and we send it out an email and then also we posted it out on LinkedIn. And like one of the replies that we got was like, oh, I already saw that on LinkedIn, but thanks for sending it to me and email. So I'm like, okay, these people are on LinkedIn.
You would never know that they saw it, but they did, you know, things like that. So that's really where the qualitative aspect, at least like for me has come in between call recordings, just like, you know, talking with customers and even just hearing feedback from our sales team and then, you know, things that you can control itself for productivity or other tools where you can at least try to like validate the audience is getting delivered to the right people. I think those are kind of the core things that we've really leaned into. I love this.
The stair step side, I'm going to go into tools and I think it's super important, but you kind of set intention about what you're looking for there. So any like, I need to validate that the audience is there. And so like the entry point of listeners that have a smaller budget, I think it's such an important reminder of like even that personal founder led like engagement is a key signal to see like, are we just getting a little bit of traction on these? Are the, you know, is the algorithm favoring this?
Opposed enough because people are dwelling long enough on it to signal that there's some value in it. So as you start to see that take up, right? And then like entering, like, let's do a little pilot on the ads and then how are we seeing that? Like, you don't have to have a massive budget to explore this.
And I think like to get those qualitative signals, sometimes it's just like setting intentions or like specific pillars that you want to lean into. And I think there's, yeah, there's a lot to be said there that I think the pushback is I don't have the budget for LinkedIn, but you can do so much more to get qualitative insights on LinkedIn without it. Yeah. And like I spent 15 K on LinkedIn to to learn this.
So like we don't have a large, like we're not deploying massive dollars on LinkedIn. Like we know that only part of our audience is on LinkedIn, not a lot of our, like, not 100% like again, they're not like V2B marketing audience. So it's like, I want to know how many people I could reach and like at what frequency makes sense. So I can go and say like, what does my budget need to be here?
And then like, I know I need to find other places to reach them. This is just like a way to kind of test and learn. Yeah. And I think it's, it's really fascinating hearing you talk about this, like that trusting your gut, finding those patterns because in so many other like industries, a pattern is quantitative.
Like that is a, it is a trackable piece of feedback. But because we have so much more like number based quantitative data, I find that those patterns can be pushed aside as not like as valuable. So being able to cross check with the qualitative feedback is a really cool way to validate those patterns that you're seeing, which are like real tangible data. So keeping track of all of that is not easy.
What are some tools that you've used, whether it's leaders that you've kind of followed their guidance on or software, any tools that have helped you put all of this into practice? Yeah, there's really so much that you can document and you just kind of have to accept that. And like part of your job and why probably someone's paying you is to also like be able to leverage what you can't track. So that's just like my caveat.
But three things is where I started. So number one, I think from, you can start in HubSpot or like that's what we use for a CRM. You can start in your CRM or your math. Like, you know, self-report attribution is like very simple, very easy to deploy.
I did it in like 30 minutes and watched it on our website. And the other thing, you know, outside of self-report attribution that you'll see that we've done is we, I've been trying to figure out how do I just get more free text and more like context documented because that's the thing with patterns is a lot of these patterns you hear or you observe, but it's not documented. Therefore, people are like, it's not, it's all qualitative, you know, it's not a quantitative pattern because it's not documented. And let's be honest, like no one's going to sit around and document everything that they hear.
Like it's a waste of time. You clearly don't have enough responsibility because that's what you're doing. So what we've done in HubSpot is like I've tried to add a lot of additional free text fields and like key parts of the funnel. And some of it's required, some of it's not like I'm not going to ask myself to, but they might see that I know them sometimes with required versus unrequired stuff.
But it's not all required. Yeah, it's not. They're probably not listening either. But so things like, you know, everybody has closed last reason, but do you have closed one reason?
Do you have like a quantitative field of like, yeah, you could say the one because of here. And these are the products that we want that are like the picklist fields that are great to report on. But like, do you have a field that they could just put like here's, here's the nugget like why we won from the perspective of the sales rep, right? So that's like an example.
We also have one thing that's been super helpful for me and for us as a business is we have deal source, deal source detail. Obviously, every company should, it probably does. But we have deal source notes. It's not required, but a lot of our reps fill this out and it's cold, especially for me.
And I review the deals. We have a weekly meeting where I review deals and leads every week. So that's like very helpful for me. And we also have a Voma, right?
That's a tool that we listen to like our call recordings for, you know, you could do a lot of things we'll call recordings these days and like automate. And I say, honestly, it's not like tools or technology, but I literally just talk to our sales team and try to, you know, get information from them. We do have like an exec sponsorship program, which I have a couple of accounts that I'm like an exec sponsor on. So we go really deep on those.
You learn so much from like going through account plans and account plans with yourself. You'll learn so much. So those are like just like easy quick wins that like don't really cost a lot. I like the conversation piece of it is so important, especially like, sure, we can find one or two people that'll tell us all the time, but like getting that diverse perspective to really hear how people are translating what they're learning is such an important tool that is so freaking easy for us to do.
It's just, I think, studying intention or a schedule, a cadence of that question being asked sets the expectation versus at random or ad hoc or trying to fill in the blanks when you're trying to create that story at the end of the month. So I love the weekly or it's a sync like message, like just having the intention on why you're gathering the information. So it's not a surprise. So it's that kind of pattern in motion.
I totally forgot about this one, but it's actually been really good. We launched a what are you hearing Slack channel in our SKO this early this year. And literally, it's just a channel where like anyone can drop in. Like, I just got off a client pod.
This is what I heard or hey, here's what I'm hearing in the market or whatever. And at first I was like, I don't have sales is going to use this or not can use it. But like our whole executive team is in this channel. And it's like basically for our AMs and sales teams to like have something that they could like share with us.
And then a lot of times, like certain executives will jump on it and be like, Oh, let's, you know, do X, Y or Z or whatever. So, you know, you get competitive intel in there, you get just like, you know, tariffs are driving everyone nuts right now. And like, it's very uncertain in the market. So you'll get like real time, like what's going on with deals or what's going on with client conversations.
So, and now they've used it consistently and it's like actually really helpful. So try that. Yeah, it compounds on itself too. It's easy for people to be like, I just heard this once, maybe I'm the only one.
But then it's like, Oh, wait, should I for this to? Or yeah, then you start to see those patterns evolve and merge a bit. So awesome thinking about kind of your like journey from sales to marketing. And then you get to the point where you're like, OK, day to day to day to number driven, but then also now this qualitative mindset of truly how people consume information and data, like, what's been one of your lowest points on the journey of you really trying to push that forward or that narrative forward and or just thinking that trusting your gut maybe didn't work out if you were to look pen to paper, but thinking about it.
But I don't know. Oh, very good start. How long is this podcast? No, I mean, there's microfales.
I call them microfales every week. You know, something doesn't get a plan. This happens, whatever. I mean, I think when I think about a specific example when I was like, Oh, I think in my gut, this is going to work and it didn't and that's fun.
But it happens like it's there, you know, so I'll give you an example. We have a very talented analyst team. We have like a nine person dedicated analyst team that like know the industry, know the categories. That's their job to know better than everyone.
And they work really closely with our customers. I also leverage them a lot for building content and just, you know, industry expertise. So we are customers leverage our analysts a ton. They like in submit questions, they can email in our analysts and ask questions and they get like very personalized value.
It's not exactly like a customer success person. It's like you could ask this analyst like a detailed question and they'll give you like data back insights in their opinion on where the industry is going. So I'm like, this is freaking gold and our customers love it and leverage this resource. Right.
So I'm like, how could we use this in a different part of the funnel because it's working so well in this part of the funnel and people are getting so much value from it. Our customers are getting so much value. But I don't you think our prospects would get value from it? Like, you know, I'm like going down the path of like, how do we like leverage this in a different way?
So, you know, we thought, okay, like, why don't we have this like asking analyst campaign? But why don't we like roll this out a little bit wider so that they don't have to be necessarily a customer to ask one of our analysts a question. So we like rolled this out, promoted it on our side, a couple other, you know, channels and had not seen what had not seen like a ton of conversions. And so I'm like, what the heck?
Like, this is, you know, and so when you're looking at the quantitative data, like it's, it's not matching what the feedback we were getting is over here. Like something's off. So immediately we go, you know, is landing page rate is the form right is messaging right? Like, what can we control?
That's like, right. And I think that's what exactly where marketers go. Like, oh, it's probably the form. Oh, it's probably the page.
It's probably the channel, whatever. And, you know, it's just we haven't figured it out yet. We're still trying to figure out where does this fit in the customer journey and like what trigger needs to happen for someone to find this valuable enough to convert. And until I can figure out that answer, like, I don't think it's going to drive a lot of conversions.
And that's an example of maybe one time I thought, so this can work great because we had all this qualitative feedback from one audience that is the getting a lot of value. We leverage it in a different part of the funnel and it's not working as what we thought it was going to work. So that's kind of that's kind of my most recent, like, it wasn't necessarily a bet for YouTube, but it was like, hey, we're going to deploy this in YouTube and we should see, you know, increase, you know, just form bills and interactions with our analyst team and hopefully meetings from it. Hasn't really happened yet.
So that's fun, you know. Hey, I'm still figuring it out. Yeah, exactly. Those micro learnings are micro failures, big failures.
I, excuse me, I would have thought that quite often, but I think that's like showing that you're stretching yourself. So I appreciate the vulnerability there a bit. Yeah. And I really like hearing something that you're still in the process of figuring out.
I don't think we get a lot of that often. We'll hear about failures or we'll hear about successes, but it's the process that you're still working on. It didn't not work and you gave up. You're pushing forward.
Yeah, something's off. I haven't figured it out, but once I figure it out, here's stubborn. So I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to figure out how and where to leverage it, the best place of the customer journey. I think my first shot maybe was a mess.
So I like that. Take another shot, you know, we're having a podcast once you figured it out. Because I want to complete the loop on the story, but I digress. Yeah.
Um, when I think that like tying into this next question, which is, you know, what have you learned about yourself through this journey? What are some things that you're really proud of in the way that you've pushed forward? And it sounds like you've answered a little bit of that. But what else is like, what's the city waterfall superpower that you have learned over the past couple of years in this journey?
I guess. Please, I feel like that should be a personal podcast. Maybe I'm getting a podcast. No, I think for me, it's like, keep learning, keep pushing myself.
And like, especially now, more than ever, I'm like, I've never done it before. Awesome. I'm going to figure it out. And I think that's like the mentality that you need to take now or the never, you know, Evan knows I can have this motto that's like, F it, let's do it.
So that's kind of what I take to figuring things out. And I, this one quote, like resonates with me so much because I love to obsess about the outcome, like how much pipeline we're generating, how much revenue are we hitting our goals? Was our attainment? Like I'm dialed into that, but I have to step back and be like, don't obsess over the outcome.
Obsess over the process because if you build a better process and you obsess over these micro steps, like you'll get to the outcome. I think that's like a sports analogy or something, like probably from Michael Jordan or Kobe or something. But that's kind of like what I'm doing. I'm like, OK, like we have to get this large pipeline goal or revenue goal, but I can't just obsess and look at the reports of like where we're at and like if we're up behind or if we're ahead or blah, blah, blah, I need to be obsessed with like deploying LinkedIn and figuring out of that.
It's going to work. I need to be obsessed with the inbound handoff and like really dialing that in. I need to be obsessed with all these like micro things that build into pipeline and revenue. So that's like, that's what I'm using that quote.
I think it's great. Like building structure around chaos a little bit, give some clarity around the milestones you're hitting and sometimes keeping organized up to move faster. So I appreciate the journey. I think it's helpful for others to just hear the real examples.
And I think one question that I always like to close, we always like to close with is kind of thinking about marketing the evolution of marketing. So for any listeners or maybe new entrants to marketing or people that are pivoting within their career, what's one thing that you think they should prepare for or one change or shift you see coming to marketing that is something that's kind of in top of mind for you. I thought about this question. I was like, honestly, like I guess it was for myself because like I feel like where you are and like, if you're trying to transition, like there's so many variables, but regardless, marketing in general is changing so fast right now with AI and good marketing engineering and like all this stuff.
So I think if there's two things that I think are very important that will set any marketer apart in the business when you think long term. And these are like two things that I'm prioritizing to like make sure I'm spending time on and I'm getting better at as well. So, you know, what is that? I'm like drinking my own champagne here and whatever better than the dog food analogy.
So number one is understanding how to leverage AI and like new data sources can be a competitive advantage. And this, you know, I'm not saying you need to go full, good market engineer. This has a little bit of some technical skills. Let's be honest here, but you need to be able to like quickly deploy things and action things and understand how you could leverage all of this.
And then maybe you might need to go out and get someone to help you architect it or something like that. But at the very least you need to understand how to put some of these new pieces to this new puzzle together. And test it. And that I think that's crucial because the speed at which everything is happening is like 10x, the content, customer stories, products being built, like, yeah, companies, mine companies, acquisitions, all this stuff is like going a million miles a minute.
So I think that is like a key thing to leverage no matter what your role is and like apply that to your role. The second thing is in the age of AI, I think a huge thing to focus on is leveraging the voice of the customer to feel you'll go to market strategy. And the people that can do this really well are all stars. The people that just use chat GPT to figure out what their personas are doing is going to get generic answers and generic results and like a basic jobs to be done framework that the same person at the next company is going to get.
So you need to build that foundation so that you could then feed AI with like things that are specific and you build the foundation first. And then also like, you know what the heck to build. You know what the heck that customers care about to build in the product to prioritize in your messaging. And then it just kind of flows with that.
But if you don't have like those two things like, I don't know how you're going to be successful. That's it. Amazing. Sydney, thank you so much for sharing your journey with us.
We're so grateful for your time and insights and we hope that everyone listening will keep taking in that qualitative feedback, start obsessing over the process instead of the outcome and say, eff it, let's do it. If you like hearing these journeys, make sure to subscribe and share this episode out to your network. And if you want to nominate a marketing hero to come on and chat with us, feel free to get in touch. Thank you so much for listening.
We'll see you all next time.