Today on second growth, we've got an episode featuring our CEO, Megan Bowen, as she joins Charles Godette on the predictable profits podcast. Megan digs into the traditional funnel strategy and why that approach just doesn't work anymore. She walks to the evolution of buying behavior all the way from the analog buying era into the AI era where we are now and what may be coming next. Hope you all enjoy.
Such an extraordinary conversation that goes way beyond just the time of this podcast because I feel like so much of what you've been talking about for a while on that dark social really does tie into that as well as that consumption drives conversion. That is a very dangerous mindset that can potentially squeeze out some minimum short term results. What is that unique advantage that you're able to offer somebody that drives different results from all your competitors in ways so that when we look at your results in your testimonial. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Beyond Some Figures podcast.
Super excited for today's guest. We're going to be playing a lot of intellectual ping pong over her 20 plus year career. She's built and she scaled some really cool companies companies like Echoc and Sockdock and Grubhub Seamless, Manage Q, which was a part of it. We were platters, a whole bunch of others.
But here's the thing, our guest today, like that's her zone of genius. She's helped mid market and enterprise B2B SaaS companies change the way that they measure and they execute marketing demand strategies that she's helped to create. They've tried more quality leads than maximize ROI. They reduce acquisition costs and so forth.
So that's what we're going to be talking about today. My suggestion, have a pen and paper handy. You're probably going to want to take some notes. So without further ado, welcome to the show.
Megan Bowen, CEO of Refine Labs. Thanks so much for having me, Charles. It's good to be here. You're one of the very few people that actually get it.
And when I say that, like a core component of our operating system, we looked at business since 2010. And as we've looked to create a framework for growing and scaling companies, we realized that the basis behind everything is having a strong setup. And now in our words, it's how you create, capture and nurture that demand. And I know in your words, I think we both have the two of them are the same, meaning, capture demand.
And then you have a third pillar that is worded a little bit differently. But of all the experts out there, I think you can put you and I in a very, very small bucket of people that understands the role that demands place and the overall client customer acquisition. I think too many people just, they're very short minded. They think and add a funnel, a conversion done.
And that's about the extent of what they call on marketing. How did all of this come about? And for you, where did you realize that? Wait a minute, marketing is by itself, you just can't do marketing.
Marketing is a function of different activities, like creating, capturing, nurturing it or however you worded on that end. So how did you come about and realize, wait a minute, the way that we've been taught marketing and B school and everything else that's wrong, something else has to happen. And then came up and you've been working with this IP for a while. Yeah, absolutely.
So I spent the first 15, 16 years of my career and all those companies that you just mentioned, essentially across a lot of different functions, everything from sales to customer success to marketing and operations. And by being in-house at all of these different B2B tech and SaaS companies, I really just had a front row seat to how a lot of companies are working on the business. A lot of the traditional marketing playbooks were just not working. And all of these different contexts had an opportunity based on my role and my experience to start to try new things to ultimately help these businesses grow and succeed.
After that sort of run in-house, I came to the realization that there was a way for me to have a bigger impact on just the B2B ecosystem at large. And if I started this agency and was in a position to actually work with many B2B companies that I could help essentially change how all of these companies thought about GoToMarket. And really think about how they can change the way that they measure and execute marketing with the ultimate goal of building profitable, sustainable growth engines. I think another interesting part of my experience was being part of this growth at all costs era.
And just really seeing how companies were, even if the top line growth number looked really impressive, that everything below the surface was not a sustainable business model. And so really trying to think about this bubble has been a burst and it did in 2022, 2023. And how can I be in a position to help companies not only measure and execute marketing effectively, but build these profitable, sustainable growth engines that are good for all involved? I've been in companies where there were big layoffs and all of these things, like there are real consequences when people try to grow in an unsustainable way.
And I just thought, this is my opportunity to help. We started Refine Labs and we're really focused on this capture, create and convert demand framework. And it was really, if we're zeroing in on the marketing engine, there are these three core pillars that are super important. People are looking for you today.
How do you capture that demand? People are not looking for you today, but they might tomorrow. So how do we create awareness and demand within that segment? And then once we capture that demand, how are we actually converting that to a real customer?
What's been really fun is over the last, I would say, like 12 to 18 months, I've started to even broaden my aperture even more. And I've been talking a lot about, and I didn't invent this, but I've been really talking about this reframing the go-to-market narrative around brand demand expand. I've noticed that. The way to think about this is if we pull out of the demand world a little bit and have a broader view of what's really important for businesses to grow, especially where we are right now.
This is the boom days of the earlier years we've had are behind us. It's much more challenging to grow. AI is creating a lot of disruption in the market. So actually going back to some core marketing and growth fundamentals are really important.
And so brand is actually a lot about creating demand. It's really about that brand awareness motion. Demand really still is capture, convert, and create as well. But then thinking about what happens after they're a customer and how important it is to deliver on the promises that you've made, not capitalizing on opportunities to improve retention or expansion in cross-sell.
And so it's just continuing to evolve the impact and the narrative that we've had. You continue to grow as an agency to think about how we're evolving and adapting with all of the changing market conditions. Now, what is the problem with the way that the traditional approach is? And you kind of look at all the gurus out there and whatnot and they're saying, hey, all you need is a funnel.
And whether it's a website funnel or a webinar funnel or whatnot. So take the funnel, run some ads, and all of a sudden this magical pixie dust will create a whole flood. People buy the courses, they try it, it never works out, they can't understand why. And that's really not a problem today.
That has been a problem actually for a long time. For almost as long as I've been in business. Why is that approach that is probably the most common approach that's taught right now? Why doesn't that work?
So the premise behind this approach is that it's really a volume game, right? I acquire as many leads as possible by any means necessary. And as long as that's a really, really big number and I can put them through this funnel that I'll eventually get a certain amount of customers out the other side. What I will say is the reason this is so commonly used is I would say at the very, like at the dawn of digital marketing, this did work for a while.
This was effective for a period of time. So everyone adopted it. The problem is as things changed and digital marketing became more mature and buyer behavior started to change, people did not update their strategies and their tactics to follow along. And another reason why so many people are still stuck in this approach is it's really easy to explain to a CFO and a CEO.
And so regardless of how effective it is, people see I put these investments in, I get these leads and then we get X amount of customers from those leads. One thing that we developed about five years ago and that we do for all of our customers today is what we call the split the funnel analysis. And this is actually a way to show with real data where this starts to break down. And so what we do is we take a customer's funnel data and we split out by lead source, what leads are coming in.
And we categorize them as either low intent or high intent. And we actually do the map to show them the dramatic difference in the end result when you look at your funnel by intent. So a quick example, maybe you have a piece of content that you get and you collect a bunch of names and email addresses, maybe you go to a conference and scan a bunch of badges and you have hundreds of leads. Right?
And then separately, you have your primary conversion form on your website where people are actually coming in and raising their hand and saying, I'd like to have a sales conversation with your team. When you start to look at the difference based on the intent level, the conversion rates are dramatic. You can have hundreds or thousands of low intent leads that convert at less than 1% to an actual customer. You could have tens of or hundreds of high intent leads where you're getting 25% of that actually converted to customer.
And when you look at that split the funnel analysis and then you actually take your budget and you map out your budget based on how they're producing what type of lead. What you're going to find is the majority of your budget is producing these low intent leads and you're not thinking about how do I drive more hand-raisers instead of how do I get more email addresses? Right. That's the biggest shift that has occurred.
And I think what's challenging is it requires that you actually change the way you think about measuring marketing effectiveness. Yeah. It requires that you change how you think about budget allocation. You have to be open minded that not everything will be directly attributable and measurable and that that's okay.
Yeah. That's why it's so commonly adopted and why so many people haven't made the shift yet. The funnel analysis is a great exercise because what we found is that is often the unlock for companies to realize what's happening by looking at their own data and start to become open minded and how they're going to make that shift over to you. Sure.
You know, that worked initially to have a funnel and then people buy, as you mentioned, it's like a sophisticated market, right? And it's kind of like metaphorically speaking. It's like somebody turned it around in a big area off the highway and saying, we're going to start a restaurant and you know what? Let's create, let's sell burgers.
Then all of a sudden people pull off the highway, this is the only restaurant around, they see burgers. And then they started selling this idea of that. If you want to sell, if you want to create a successful restaurant, you have to turn around and sell burgers. Burgers are what drives demand.
That's how we've made millions of dollars through burgers. Then as the market gets more and more sophisticated, they realize that, wait a minute, there's more restaurants and there's more of everything out there. It's not necessarily burgers that it is. And that's kind of what happens when the, as the internet sort of came around and whatnot, very few people knew how to put their offer right in front of the right people.
And so it was just kind of like having that restaurant put in the burger. Few people knew how to put people in how to get theirself known. And so it was very easy to create and attract those buyers. And then what happened is everybody else started to become more sophisticated and there was a lot more competition that came in.
You had direct competition and direct competition. And then as it became so sophisticated, you realize that it really wasn't about the burgers, there was something else. And that's kind of what we're talking about here. And you mentioned how in the 1990s through 2010, we had this analog buying era.
Yep. And then from 2010 to 2020, there was this website era. And that's kind of what we're talking about right now, about the funnels and everything else between 2010 and 2020. Though the funnels kind of started really dying down maybe around that 2016 17.
It became a lot less effective. Yep. And then you're looking at 2020 to 2024 is that whole dark social and now we're in this AI era. I do think we're kind of like in this overlap between the dark social and the AI.
There's always some overlap over the years. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I would also tend to tend to think that dark social elements that you're referring to that that will remain apart probably indefinitely some component of dark social because people want to be educated to make smart decisions.
And so they're going to go all these places that we can't find. But I'm going to complete agreement with you that if you just look at AI, I mean, every trends that I've seen so far when it looks at the role of the B2B sales person between now and the year 2030, I did such deep research. I'm the big stork in the plan when it comes to this stuff found is right now, 96% of all buying behavior is happening before they agree to get on the phone with you. So 96%.
But by the year 2030, that's looking like almost 100% of all buying activity will happen before they get on the phone with you. So in the year 2030, the role of the B2B salesperson isn't going to be that of traditional selling. It's going to be more a client experience type of representative. They're already going to know and they're going to expect to get all the answers that they need to make a decision before they get on the phone.
So you've got to be able to make sure that that's crystal clear. Any comparisons, any data, any case studies, all that other stuff. So let's kind of talk about where that B2B business owner is now. And what do you see that is really working to fill the sales pipeline?
And with this AI era and whatnot, how do you see that this B2B role is going to have to adapt and evolve so that they can continue to lead their market in the year 2030? I agree with you in terms of room to this point where sales call as we have as we know it today is essentially going to be like a closing call implementation onboarding call essentially. It's like, hey, my decision is almost made, but we need to just tie up some loose ends and really get going. And so I think the biggest thing that people need to be thinking about is you need to completely eliminate any friction for your buyer to fully understand every aspect of your offer.
Now give us some examples of common friction points. Yeah. So I mean, I think common for points, you do not put pricing on your website. You do not have social.
Everybody does that, right? No pricing. So that's critical information. People are not upfront about why they're different from their competitors.
People do not discuss what happens after you decide to purchase. And so you really have to, and especially, you know, you really have to use your website to basically allow your buyer to find out everything that they would need to know in order to make a purchasing decision right at their fingertips. Not only do you need to have that on your website, you need to be auditing all of your digital properties, right? So whether that's your YouTube channel or your podcast or other content that you have out there, how is everything being consistent and comprehensive in terms of who you are, what you do, why you do it, what you offer, who you're for, how much it costs and how to get started.
You know, people make these funny and interesting claims, which are very likely to potentially pan out in terms of maybe AI agents doing research and bringing back information to people who are ultimately making buying decisions. You literally need to have website and digital properties be consumable for humans and for technology, right? And the clarity and the consistency and the comprehensiveness are crucial. Unfortunately, today, most websites, it's unclear who the product or services for, what it actually is, how much it costs, what you get outcomes and driving, why you're different.
And so these feel like basic things and they kind of are, they're like fundamental foundational things. But for some reason, a lot of businesses are just not good at clearly communicating not on their website. And they have been historically relying on the fact that a sales person will be the one to close those gaps. And I think that's what people need to be thinking about and starting to change so that they can be successful going forward.
It's funny. The amount of people who are, I will go to their website and I'll ask them the question. And I'll say, so what is that unique advantage that you're able to offer somebody that drives different results from all your competitors in a way so that when we look at your results and your testimonials, how are you able to deliver those better than everybody else out there? Like, give me an understanding.
And virtually everybody can't answer that question, especially if they can't answer that question by they remove the words or the phrases, we care more, we have better pricing, we bet around for a long time, you know, you have direct access to the team, like you get away, like the get away, like the, eliminate the typical stuff that people are going to say, what makes you uniquely different? How can you deliver results that are different than anybody else out there? Most can't answer that question. And so if the CEO can't answer that question, how do you expect the prospects to figure out, why should I hire you over somebody else?
And then the hardest thing, Megan, as you know, is that it's, we don't just have direct competitors anymore. So if you're an agency owner, for example, and let's say you're doing paper clay, your, your competitors aren't other PPC agencies, your competitors are going to be AI software tools that do it upward, that does it, or even a whole slew of other people that are just competing for that same dollar saying, no, no, not PPC, you're going to invest in SEO, you have to invest in this or that and so forth. There's so much that goes on to, to that process that you're, you're right, people are missing it. And then when it comes to AI era, you're already starting to see more and more people go to these AI engines and they're like, who will be the best company or the top 10 companies to solve for this?
And if you're not showing up, that becomes an issue. But I think this is where your brands being up front of your IP when you talk about what is it brands, brands and expand brands, right? So this has got to be this my nation now is an understanding what you do that this is part of the reason why brand would be so important. So they're not going who's the best, you know, such and such.
They actually look you up by name. Correct. And so I think the goal with brand programs is that before there's this concept of most people when they are about to make a purchase, they have a day one consideration set in their mind. So what that means is if you're successful at brand marketing, like if company is in the market for a CRM, they're probably going to think, okay, I can probably use Salesforce or HubSpot.
I know there are a million other CRMs out there, but like those are the two that I know that exist, right? And so you want to think about in my market, in my niche, how do I become that that day one consideration set? And the reality is spending all the money on the planet and Google search is not how you do it. You're right.
At that point, people are already looking for something. What you want to figure out is how do people know that I exist before they go to search, before they go to chat GPT and ask the question, that's how you win today. Now you can do that in many different ways. There's a variety of brand programs that you can run.
That's where things like Word of mouth or pure referrals can come into play. If you're just having a conversation with someone, but that is crucial. And most people do not allocate budget or attention to those types of programs, because it doesn't fit nicely into that funnel that we've been describing, because it's not easy to measure. And that is the most crucial thing for people to grow.
I do think things like word of mouth and trust always been important and are going to actually become even more important when technology comes into play. That said, another way to think about building your brand is, okay, what if they are going to chat GPT and saying, you know, what are the top 10 solutions for this particular problem that I'm solving? This goes back to needing to have command of your digital presence, both your website, other digital properties with LLM specifically. We also know that credible brand mentions on key sites like Reddit and otherwise are huge influencers and how these models are trained, right?
So understanding how these technologies are leveraging information on the internet and making sure that you are positioning yourself appropriately. We started this process at Refine Labs about nine months ago. And so we revamped all of our digital properties to have consistency. We focused on various digital PR opportunities to spread our company name across lots of other websites and being mentioned elsewhere.
And we've seen a 40% increase in our self-reported attribution. Say people are finding us in chat GPT and perplexity and things like that, right? So there are real ways that you can make sure that you're showing up in the right places, both from a human perspective and a digital perspective. You're right.
And the thing is, is when you look at the consumer, the behavior of the consumer journey, by the time they're turned around and they're looking for somebody like Refine Labs, that's actually towards the end. There's so many things that actually go on beforehand. And Eugene Swartz talks about this and there's five different levels of awareness, like the very beginning, people don't even realize that they have a problem. Then all of a sudden, just something happens.
And then they're in this exploratory like, well, what actually is, why did I feel this way? Why did we experience this? And they start looking for answers. And then if your company shows up as, to what they're trying to look for, now, you've already started to establish a little bit of preference.
You have the answer to a question they have. And then they, as they move on from problem unaware to now, problem aware, now they know they have a problem. So now they know they have a problem. So now they're looking for different solutions.
Well, how do I solve this? What can I do? And they start looking at all of these different areas for how do I solve it? Having the right content in there to be able to address that person.
So they go from problem unaware, problem aware to then solution, unaware, solution to where most where and so throughout that entire process, this is where content plays a really big role in helping to guide. And I oftentimes compare this to dating. Like if I met from my wife now, if the first date that I had with her, if I even turned around and tried to move in and kiss her too quick, she would have run out that door and then she really would have just, it would have been, it would take a little bit longer for me to get that trust back because she would have felt like he's in it for for a different reason than I'm in it. Yeah.
So she would have just pushed back. And the buyer's journey is very similar. You don't know where your buyer is. And right off the bat, you're like, Hey, let's jump on a call and let's try to solve this.
Let me try to sell you. You end up taking several steps backward, not moving forward in the buyer's journey. But if you mean where they're at, provide them with the content and the information that they need and earn that that trust to be able to then make that offer or give them the kiss and you know, whatever, right, you do that. And then that really does help to short the sales process, boost the conversions and so forth.
But again, you look at most of the content out there. It's either garbage SEO optimized content that is written by somebody overseas. They're not even looking at what's being put out there just so that they hope to rank. And that's the extent of, you know, creating content or put up this content for only those most aware buyers that are ready to buy and they ignore anywhere from 96 to 98% of the entire potential market that they could be speaking, speaking to.
Yep. Absolutely. Well said. Yeah, we talk about one of the one of the phrases that we like to use all the time is consumption drives conversion, right?
It's consumption drives conversion. It's the consumption of content that helps to drive conversion. And as I understand everything that you talk about too, this is where I feel like you and I could really just go back and forth on this intellectual pain pong. I really just have such an extraordinary conversation that goes way beyond just the time of this podcast because I feel like so much of what you've been talking about for a while on that dark social really does tie into that as well as that consumption drives conversion.
And you did mention that there's that overlap. Let's talk about that dark social a little bit. I think people really, they don't understand what goes on before they get to the website. I'm just going to paint this example.
I was talking to you recently and they said, Oh, well, we only get X amount of leads on our website and, you know, that's, that's just what it is. And so our buying cycle is, I think he said 30 to 45 days. And I was like, oh, you are so wrong. You don't even understand.
And this is the biggest problem. And he's like, well, guaranteed you're buying cycle for your market as closer to six months to a year, minimum, maybe even longer. But you only recognize them at the very end. You're missing so much opportunity.
And that buying cycle is what you talk about in that dark social. Yep. Absolutely. It's the, yeah, it's the difference.
So let's put ourselves in the buyer's shoes, not our, you know, not our shoes as the company or the business owner. As the buyer, the reality is it takes a long time to develop trust in trust and awareness in any particular business or vendor that is out there. And so when you think about it from a buyer's perspective and I'll use my own, my own lived experience at Refine Labs, right? Like I've been at this for six years now at this agency.
And we've had many phases in terms of how our marketing and content strategy has evolved at the very beginning, me and my, you know, would host weekly virtual events during like the peak of COVID, right? On talking about digital marketing and challenges and problems and over time, we were able to develop and some audience, we then started publishing that to a podcast. So at the beginning, all we were doing was bringing people together, talking about the problems and challenges, sharing solutions, sharing ideas, having a dialogue with our, with our target market and our audience, distributing that information on a puzzle on LinkedIn, on YouTube, in all these different ways, essentially creating an association with our target market about the problem we solve, our perspective on a solution and developing our credibility, our authority and developing trust, right? And we essentially never stopped our tactics and programs evolved over time.
Like now that we're in a post COVID era, I'm on the road and doing dinners and all sorts of cities to bring these people together. And when I get on a phone with some of our websites as, Hey, I want to hand raise or I want to have a sales conversation, every single call that I have, I have been listening to you for five years. I've been waiting for the right, you know, I've been waiting to be in a position where we need you guys and here we are today. Let's get going, right?
But that is how buying decisions are made and meeting you have that long term view of I'm doing this because I'm, I'm hosting a dinner in Chicago next month. I had someone message me, I really want to go, but I'm not in a buying cycle for, you know, for an agency right now. And I'm like, that's not what this is about. Like, this is about long term relationship building.
I'd love to have you there. Awesome. I'm signing up. I really want to meet you.
Great. Like me hosting this dinner next month is not because I want to sell the people that are coming to this dinner immediately. This is, I want to build some real relationships in person. And I know for a fact that that will benefit the business.
Is it going to be next month or next quarter or next year? Maybe not. And that's okay. But because we've had this mindset the entire time that we built our business, we never have a shortage of pipeline coming in.
And that is people like to think that marketing is like a coin operated machine. I'm going to plan some money and then I'm going to get something out immediately. That is a very dangerous mindset that can potentially squeeze out some minimum short term results, but that's not how businesses are going to be built. And I think, and you have to be thinking about it from building authority, credibility and trust and the consistency really matters.
We have never taken our foot off the gas in terms of how we continue to engage with the market. We just continue to evolve and adapt our strategies in COVID. Virtual events was our only option, right? Post COVID.
Now we can be integrating different programs. And so that's, that's really the crux of it. And it's interesting because when you think about the analog era, the website era, the dark social era, the AI era, there are certain things that never, ever, ever change. And it's how do you have a point of view?
How do you get in front of your buyers and communicate that point of you and how do you build trust, authority, credibility and word of mouth? That will never, ever change, right? How you do that will change and evolve and, and how you need to adapt your strategies based on changing technologies and changing buying patterns will evolve. But that foundation never changes.
And too many people just don't even think about that. They skip past that and go right to a tactic from a place of, I'm not putting myself in my buyer's shoes. I'm sitting in my shoes and thinking about what I want, not what my buyers want. I was, I do a very good job of that.
Even before that we jumped on the phone and we didn't interview with you prior to this about refined labs for a long, long time. One of the things that I respect a lot about you, Megan, is that you're, again, one of the very few companies out there that they, they're on putting, right? All the stuff that you talk about, you, you apply it and you do it yourself. So when you share your insights and you share your advice, it's not coming from some book or some course or some degree that you've earned.
It's, this is what we've done. These are the results. This is what we've experienced in, you know, here's how we've made a better over time to prove this in the pudding. So speak, because it's like, I really do see you everywhere.
You really are in all the different places. Great. So it's no surprise that you don't have a pipeline issue. Now, how, what do you say to the business owner right now?
Let's say, let's a vehicle example. Let's say you're talking to an agency owner that's the one about a million and a half dollars a year. They took their business to where it is because of hard work, word of mouth and referrals. And now they're saying my pipeline is dry.
We're feeling these cycles of peace and famine. I hear you guys, this makes sense. What do I do? So what would that plan look like for them now moving forward over the next, say, either quarter, a couple quarters a year?
What direction do you move on them? What advice do you give them? Usually for this type of context, I go back to a lot of basics. So I like to like to encourage business owners at the stage to complete this market of one exercise.
So can you really describe your perfect customer? Can you explain their pain points? What keeps them up at night? What do they look like?
What are what challenges they need to solve? What outcomes do they need to produce? Many people cannot clearly define their market of one. And so that exercises is supremely important.
Then we move on to the next exercise, which is what I would call essentially a strategic narrative or your differentiated position. So what is your unique point of view? What are you? Why are you different than other people?
What do you do that only you can do best, right? Need to clearly articulate those. Then you can move into actually defining your go to market strategy. Because clarity on your market of one and your buyer, you have your strategic narrative and differentiated positioning.
Then it becomes an execution game, right? Now you need to create content that amplifies your strategic narrative. You need to identify where your market of one spends time. That's where you need to be.
And then you need to distribute content in that place where your market of one spends time. It can really be that simple. Most people don't have that correct. So any tactic or strategy that you do without having that be rock solid will not produce the impact that you want.
So I always start there. There's usually a ton of work. Once you get that on lock, then you can make sure your website isn't a good place. Then you can start producing great content, distributing great content, and you can start to optimize the engine from there.
And in terms of the content itself, what guidelines do you have for that content? Because you're going to have some people that are like, oh, I'm going to put out volume and just hire somebody overseas and put out a ton of volume. You're going to have other people that go, okay, I'll create it and there's going to be a hard pitch with every single one. It'll be almost like a written set, cleverly mass sales letter, so to speak.
What do you look at when you say this is really good to man's creating type of content? It itself should help your buyer to a degree solve their problem. So people can go to our YouTube channel. People can come to our website like even on our site, we just released a demand GPT on our website.
You can literally ask any question you have about demand creation or demand capture conversion, brand demand, expand, and our chatbot will basically give you answers and resources for the question that you have without even hiring us or getting on the phone, right? Your content itself should help your buyer to a degree with whatever it is that they would hire you for. That is the bar that you should be measuring it against. And if that's the case, that's how you build authority, credibility, and trust.
And then when they are in a position where they can buy your thing, then you're going to be the first one that they come to because they already know that you can help them because you have. Awesome. Now, my favorite answer, I guess, this is the Beyond Some Figures podcast. What would you say is your biggest best tip for listeners that want to take their business beyond some figures?
Talk to your customers. Being the market of one, the strategic narrative framework, most people, most small business owners are too caught up in their own mind and try to think that a way to hack growth in their business is by reading something in a business book or speaking with another business owner. Last way to grow your business is to talk to your customers and understand if what you're doing is really solving a problem and what else you can be helping them solve. I still take the majority of our sales calls so that I can consistently have a pulse on the market and that has allowed us to continuously evolve, expand, and adapt our service offering, our pricing model so that we can main relevant to all of our target market.
And so, you know, I was able to break seven figures into eight figures because I always was prioritizing talking to my customers and that information was essential in making key strategic decisions at the business level that allowed us to continue to grow. Awesome. Awesome. We've had a very interesting conversation.
We think about it. We've talked about the importance of how that plays in the overall funnel and why that's different than the approaches that are still taught today, the real popular approaches, a little while and more on sophisticated market where you would just run some ads to be a short, shortened to take them to a conversion event and so forth. And then all of a sudden things changed a lot. Megan talked about the different ways that the market spent in from the analog buying arrow to the website arrow to the dark social arrow and then the AI arrow and the role of the sales person is changing.
The role of the buyer is changing and they're expecting to have more information, more resources, more education, more knowledge. And you've got to be the one to provide the answers to this to these people. People want to learn more about you and the work that you do and where to get the demand GPT that you're talking about. Where do we send them?
We're fine labs.com. So we're fine labs.com and then that little widget in the lower right hand side of the screen. That is that demand. Yep.
Everything else.com and you can find everything there, including links to our podcast, our YouTube channel, demand GPT blog, ours and our Y calculator. We have a ton of resources offered from the website or linked from the website. That'll take you where you need to go. Awesome.
So check them out. We're fine labs. They do really have a wealth of content there. And Megan, then follow her on LinkedIn.
Her LinkedIn is a really, you know, credit extraordinary and you're going to get different nuggets of information that expand on the different things we talked about here. So we're fine labs.com and then follow Megan over on LinkedIn to you'll be happy you did. And then traditional tips, strategies and information to grow your business faster, more predictably and less dependent on you. Also check us out at predictableprofits.com.
Again, that's predictableprofits.com. This is Charles Godette with my good friend, Megan Bowen, and I will see you in the next episode.