"I'm just saying" Presents Friday

Welcome to Episode 46 of the Technology in Human Services podcast. In this episode I’m joined by Ibukun Abejirinde and Nancy Clark to talk about their work looking at how to re-imagine digital or virtual health care through a compassionate lens, focusing on Newcomers to Canada. In an article for Canadian Diversity Ibukun wrote that it is “relevant to explore if and how the digitization of health care impacts the experience of compassionate care for marginalized groups, including immigrants and refugees.” How do Newcomers experience virtual care? How do they experience compassionate health care in general? With a number of colleagues Ibukun and Nancy continue to work on this question as well as new lines of inquiry regarding the overall settlement experience and the role of digital technology in supporting the settlement experience and setting newcomers up for success. I think their research focuses on some essential questions that should impact the entire Newcomer-serving sector’s approach to digital transformation, hybrid service delivery, and how we can ensure that our virtual and hybrid services are equally compassionate, client centred, and ultimately focused on meeting the needs of our clients and communities. Some of the questions we discussed: Ibukun, in your article for Canadian Diversity, you wrote that it is “relevant to explore if and how the digitization of health care impacts the experience of compassionate care for marginalized groups, including immigrants and refugees.” How do Newcomers experience virtual care? How do they experience compassionate health care in general? What lessons have you learned in your study? What recommendations do you have for health care practitioners as well as settlement practitioners? What kind of investments are needed to ensure that virtual care is compassionate, appropriate, equitable, and accessible for Newcomers? Access is a huge issue in many areas, such as language, transportation, systems navigation, etc. But when it comes to virtual care, digital access is something we need to talk about. Where does digital inclusion fit into a vision for compassionate virtual care for Newcomers? What needs to be done or considered? Your work fits into an ongoing body of work and I’m curious where you see next steps for what you’ve learned and have been sharing. For example, recently Access Alliance with other partners published A qualitative study on the Virtual Emergency Department care experiences of equity-deserving populations. They found that “Patients from equity-deserving populations described negative past experiences with ED in-person care, which included recounts of discrimination or culturally insensitive care while waiting to see the ED physician or nurse. Conversely, participants found the Virtual ED to be a socially and culturally safe space since they could now by-pass the waiting room experience. However, virtual care could not replace in-person care for certain issues (e.g., physical exam), and there was a need for greater promotion of the service to specific communities that might benefit from having access to the Virtual ED.” They also found that there were digital inclusion barriers to accessing the Virtual ED, but that patients from equity-deserving populations might still choose the Virtual experience because of poor past experiences. What does it tell us about the state of care when, even with barriers and imperfections, people from equity-deserving populations would choose a digital experience over an in-person experience for their health care? Where do you hope to see your work go from here? The projects Ibukun and Nancy discuss on the podcast were funded by a Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council Connection Grant (Beyond Technology, Beyond Healthcare: Translating Intersectionality in the Promotion of Equitable Virtual Health Care Services for Newcomers to Canada) and a AMS Healthcare Compassion and AI Fellowship (Re-imagining digital health compassion through the lens of Canadian newcomers). Some useful resources: Beyond Technology, Beyond Healthcare: Promoting Equitable and Integrated Supports for Newcomers and Refugees in Canada project website which also credits other project team members “Digital Crossroads” Comic Book Settlement Journey Map Ibukun on the Good Tech, Compassionate Healthcare Podcast Canadian Diversity article by Ibukun and colleagues: Beyond Technology: Digital Health Compassion for Canadian Immigrants and Refugees Machine-Generated Transcript What follows is an AI-generated transcript of our conversation using Otter.ai. It may contain errors and odd sentence breaks and is not a substitute for listening to the audio. Marco Campana 0:00Welcome to Episode 46 of the technology and human services podcast. In this episode, I’m joined by Ibukun Abejirinde and Nancy Clark to talk about their work looking at how to reimagine digital or virtual healthcare through a compassionate lens, focusing on newcomers to Canada. In an article Ibukun wrote for Canadian diversity, she wrote, it is relevant to explore if and how the digitization of healthcare impacts the experience of compassionate care for marginalized groups, including immigrants and refugees. So how do newcomers experience virtual care? How do they experience compassionate healthcare in general? With a number of colleagues, Ibukun and Nancy, continue to work on this question, as well as new lines of inquiry regarding the overall settlement experience in the role of digital technology in supporting the settlement experience, setting newcomers up for success. I think their research focuses on some essential questions that should impact the entire newcomer serving sectors, approach to digital transformation, hybrid service delivery, and how we can ensure that our virtual and hybrid services are equally compassionate, client centered and ultimately focus on meeting the needs of our clients and communities. I think you’ll enjoy this conversation. Welcome to the technology and human services Podcast. I’m going to let you both introduce yourselves and and a bit about your work before we kind of dive in. So Ibukun why don’t we start with you? Ibukun Abejirinde 1:18All right, thanks, Marco, very lovely to be in this conversation with you and Nancy. So my name is Ibukun Abejirinde. I’m a scientist at the Institute for Better Health, which is Research and Innovation Hub within Trillium Health Partners. And I’m also an assistant professor at the Dala Lana School of Public Health University of Toronto. So my work is really applied research, where I ask very interesting questions with the aim of addressing complex healthcare problems, and I focus on health inequity digital technology and what these mean for marginalized populations and how they access and experience quality healthcare. A lot of my work partners very closely with patients and caregivers, policy makers, community organizations, researchers from different disciplines, and I kind of focus more extensively on immigrants and refugees, racialized communities and older adults. And so that’s sort of the hat I’m wearing coming to this conversation. This conversation. Marco Campana 2:24Awesome. Welcome and thank you for joining. Nancy. Please introduce yourself and your work. Nancy Clark 2:29Hi Marco. Thanks for the intro, and thanks to Ibukun. Yeah, I’m an Associate Professor at the School of Nursing at the University of Victoria in Canada, British Columbia, my program of research focuses on refugee mental health. I’ve been a mental health clinician for about 30 years, so most of my work has been in clinical practice. I came to academia later than most people, and I really try to focus on the issue of equity and why people are experiencing barriers, and how can we make the healthcare experience equitable but also a friendly place to go to. So I think a lot of people sometimes talk about access and equity, but we also need to think about the quality of care. So what is, what is caring? How do we care for people like Ibukun? I’m interested in what we call, what we might categorize as marginalized communities, but looking at the structural pieces of that. So what are the policies, the bigger pieces that are sort of creating those barriers, but also what works, and why does it work for some people and not other people? So that’s sort of me in a in a nutshell, and really interested in advancing mental health outside of the mainstream. So looking at the social determinants of mental health, such as poverty, housing, social support, and for me, being an intersectionality scholar, gender is always at the forefront of how that works and how that plays out in terms of power relationships and things like that, so that that’s sort of my work. Awesome. Marco Campana 4:29Thank you both very much for joining. And that notion of intersectionality Nancy is something I think will be a thread through this conversation. Because, again, as we mentioned before we started this, this conversation is about about health care and virtual health care and equity and health care and digital equity, but it, but it also is where it intersects with newcomers in particular and other equity deserving groups. And I think that that thread throughout is where people who are going to be listening are going to be quite interested. So I want to set the stage a little bit, because we came at this originally, I became out of your out of two. Projects, right? So the first was looking at a project to reimagine virtual healthcare with a compassionate lens. So not just how do we do virtual healthcare, because the mechanics of that you can find everywhere, but how do we do it compassionately, in particular with newcomers to Canada. And then that work, as you explained to me, has evolved into new lines of kind of questions and inquiry, looking at the whole did the whole settlement experience, and where digital technology fits in, supporting that experience and ensuring that newcomers are set up for success. And so the so again, the first project kind of focused on virtual care, but you’ve expanded beyond that. And so I want to kind of set the stage for people in my audience who are more probably on the settlement side. And let’s talk a little bit about what you mean, or how you define virtual health care, and what does it mean to provide compassionate care in that setting. Okay. Ibukun Abejirinde 5:54Thanks, Marco, so the way we how we came to this work, was really within the context of the pandemic, and the fact that public health restrictions meant that people could not access healthcare. Most people could not access healthcare in the brick and mortar way, and everybody had to go rely on digital technology so broadly when we’re talking about virtual care, it’s a term that describes all forms of remote interactions between a patient and their care providers or their circle of care, and using digital technologies, information and communication solutions to support service delivery in healthcare, enable it, provide it, deliver it. So it includes things like remote monitoring technologies, having a conversation or an appointment with your clinician over the telephone or over a video call, even messaging, right? So sometimes you have this portals where a patient could send messages about the way that we failing communicate with a nurse practitioner provider over a portal, so emails, text message and all of that falls into virtual care. But for the particular projects we’re going to speaking about today, we kind of honed in specifically on video and telephone clinical encounters, because those were the most one the two modalities that were mostly used during the pandemic, but also by newcomer group. Yeah, so that’s that’s on virtual care for compassion. I think it’s such a complex term, and I did some work as part of this project to sort of understand how it was being conceptualized and defined differently. And I find that it’s it’s this very multi dimensional phenomenon that varies per individual, and individuals have varying expectations and experiences. But one source that I frequently go to that I think gives a very clear and straightforward answer on what does compassionate care mean? Is the Oxford Handbook of compassion science, and the way they describe and define compassion is that it’s a state of concern for someone else’s suffering or the need of someone else that has been unmet, accompanied by a desire to alleviate or address that suffering. But nobody really goes around talking about, oh, I had a visit with my doctor and it was compassionate, right? What we use are like proxy indicators and tangible descriptors of compassion care. So when you hear people talking about trustworthiness of the care or the way they felt that their clinical encounter had dignity embedded, or that they have a positive relationship with their primary care provider, or they felt respected, or that somebody was provided empathic care, all of that, those are descriptors of compassionate care. And I think what makes compassion such an important concept to dig into within healthcare generally, but also within the context of digitally enabled service delivery, is evidence is showing how intricately linked the concept of compassion and how people experience and operationalize it is linked to how they perceive care in general. So a number of interesting studies have come out regarding that. In fact, one recently published from a compassion lab in from the University of Calgary, where they they looked at the experiences of 4500 patients in 14 emergency departments across Alberta, and found that compassion was key to how patients rated the quality of care that they received. I think one thing that was very important, and I’ll probably hand over to Nancy to speak to this, is that study showed that women and indigenous patients reported lower compassion scores. South Asian patients report. Significantly lower ratings than white participants, and so it was showing that patients views were modified along demographic, cultural, ethnic lines. And for our study, we used our intersectional lens as well to unpack and make sense of how are newcomers experiencing virtual care on arriving to Canada and trying to navigate the healthcare system, and that became set the stage for our exploratory work. But I’ll let Nancy perhaps speak to intersectionality, how we conceptualize it, and what does this mean for understanding this work. Nancy Clark 10:36Thanks Ibukun, that’s a really interesting lens that you bring around compassionate care, especially when we think about the context of the healthcare crisis, the increasing migration, or lack of migration, that’s happening at the borders in the context of covid 19, and the fact that you drew attention to the role of virtual slash digital care in that context and where we are. Now, one thing that’s come out clearly during, I would say, covid 19 is, as you’ve heard, this sort of acronym, that it was a social X ray to see of where things are in terms of the disproportionate impacts of who is the most marginalized. And I’ll talk about intersectionality in a second. But one thing in that context that stood out for me, what you were talking about, was this notion of compassion, and I can’t help but think about also, sort of the other side of that, which might be burnout, in terms of what we heard, what happened during covid 19, and so how things started to crumble, which then impacted Those communities and populations that are racialized, that are newcomers, etc, etc. So there’s this big, broader, I think, structural piece, and that’s really what intersectionality, I think, if we could, it’s a very complex idea, but essentially it’s trying to get at, how do we disrupt and enable those structural pieces to make it equitable for all? And so that, you know, when we look at the UN Global Development Goals now, it’s like, you know, we don’t want to leave anybody behind, and yet, we’re looking at who’s the most impacted, one of the or sorry, affected by these structural processes that don’t work for everybody. So because of their unique social positioning, such as their ethnic background, their migration status, their literal literacy status. So the other thing that you mentioned was that women, I think you mentioned women and indigenous people, had lower experience of compassion. And that’s very interesting when you come at it from a gender based analysis, because typically, we know that women tend to be constructed as care providers, as people that can access resources and supports in different ways than Men and other genders, because of perhaps femininity or masculinity, and often those things are so. So it’s interesting because you specifically drew on women, but what we see in the bigger discourses in terms of forced migration and also resettlement is that the voices of men and their vulnerabilities are excluded, and so one of the things that we have to think about when we’re reading these kinds of data is to potentially not reinforce those marginalizations and potentially not reinforce stereotypes. IE, women are vulnerable, men are tough and strong. These are just very basic sort of ideas. But these notions prevail throughout and so when we think about constructing or CO creating, how digital technologies can really address some of those inequities, we have to be kind of thinking about, well, what do we already know that works and doesn’t work, and how are we sort of perpetuating or reinforcing some of those ideas within these new AI technologies and things? And I apologize if that’s a. An abstract idea, but it really comes back to, I think the essence of intersectionality is those identity constructs that shape the outcome, the health outcomes of people, and we can’t really disconnect, as you were saying, Ibukun the micro from the macro. And then one of our interests in this project is So, where is the mezzo in this where is the people that provide the care in our in our context, the connections that the primary care sector as well as the settlement sector have and who’s who’s doing what kind of work. And I really think that often, one of the big learnings for me was that the immigration and the settlement sector receives a lot of funding from our federal government, also from provincial funds to really look at supporting integration settlement and health, and often they are actually the first people or the first services that people receive. And so that brings us to then, what role does technology and digital health play within that sector, because if they’re the if they’re the first point of contact, one can imagine, then that, you know, like that, that might actually be more significant in terms of playing a role versus going to health, because that was one of our findings was that as a newcomer person, for example, an asylum seeker or a refugee, both under the umbrella of forced migration, those folks would not tend to access health. Right off the bat, that was one of the biggest things that we found was that primary care or accessing a community health center happens last so how can we forefront the the use of technology and health at the beginning, within the set, within the broader notion of resettlement and settlement context? So sorry, I went off a little bit there, a little bit winded, but really so compassionate care, then this is a really interesting topic, but I want to get back to that I would because I come from a critical orientation. I think we need to be able to operationalize compassion so that we don’t have the negative impacts of that, such as burnout and things like that, because we understand that resources have been constrained and that the when people access care, they usually access it with multiple comorbidities and very complex health issues. Yeah, Ibukun Abejirinde 18:05no, you’re absolutely correct. And I think from the interviews that we did so we spoke to 25 newcomers. And when I use that term, I use it very broadly to include economic immigrants, refugees, asylum claimants, those with precarious status, temporary foreign workers. So that’s the way we sort of pocketed it broadly. And when we spoke to 25 newcomers and nine service providers, settlement service providers, who provide primary care services, and one of the things that came out so strongly is more most of the providers we spoke to have lived experience themselves of being newcomers to Canada and while and on the one hand, that put them in a very optimal position to be able to meet their clients where they were at, to relate to them, to build that trust to develop the relationship quickly. It came at a very big cost to those providers at an individual level and even within the sector as a whole, at least from the primary care perspective, although I think, like it cuts across the sector as a whole, was that within the context of underfunding on the staffing, not having enough support at a systemic level for the settlement sector to provide these hugely demanding and very critical services, is that there was a lot of burnouts. That was the trade off, is providers themselves needed to go the extra mile to bridge the gaps that digital technology could not bridge, and that the system was not bridging, and so that came at an extra cost. So I appreciate the fact that you’re looking at the benefits on the one hand, but then at the expense of what? And I think that that’s something we need to keep top of mind. Marco Campana 19:58Yeah. I mean, I. Don’t accept your apology, Nancy, because I don’t think you went out of the scope. Because I think what you’re what you’re describing, is a broad, complex systems navigation for both those accessing care and those providing it. And the word for me, that always comes to mind when we have the and then and now, we’re layering digital on top of that. So forget the digital we’ve been talking about compassionate care probably for a long time. And how do you do it at the same the same time? We’re talking about the parallel processes of burnout. Virtual care layers something on top of a system and conversations and research that are still nuanced and undone and still works in progress and not undone, but works in progress. And so the complexity of that and then nuances. So as you described the difference, you know, there’s a lot of anecdotal or assumptions about the differences between men and women or ethnic groups. Forget about the diversity within those ethnic groups. So for example, if you can mention, you know, South Asians had bad experiences in Alberta. But what about nuances within those those groups? Or what about women from Afghan backgrounds versus Afghans in general, for example, right? The nuance in that care is something that is a huge conversation in our sector. And then, of course, the intersectionality. So you’re young, you’re a woman, you came as a refugee claimant, you’re living in poverty, and you’re, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You start to layer all of those pieces onto it, and now we layer a digital version on which may or may not benefit you. Maybe you are digitally literate, maybe you’re not, and is your provider digitally literate? So when we’re looking at that whole, that whole mess, that system, that kind of approach, I think you’re, you’re talking about what we what we need to be talking about, and we will get to some of the practical parts of the conversation. But I think it’s important to look at that, on that on that level, to say you’re describing the health system that also describes the settlement system, right is that is, as Ibukun is mentioning people, people who are trying to figure this out, who are underpaid and doing things on the side of their desks, serving clients who they’re not officially allowed to serve because of eligibility requirements, but they must serve because it’s compassionate to do so for example, which is another definition of compassionate care, right? So I think that there’s a it’s a big conversation. I’m glad you kind of put it in there, because I think that sets some of that context as well, so that projects like these can start to address and answer some of them, the sort of more practical questions, but we always have to have in mind that we’re sort of, we’re doing it in this context that is an un unfinished work in progress that we have not resolved yet. So as we talk about compassionate care, clearly my question would be, well, if we’re doing all of these studies, where are those studies then being operationalized in the healthcare settings, so that it’s not a study that has to be done externally, but there are questions that are being answered internally, with with accountability mechanisms in place to ensure that we are embedding compassion into the the healthcare system, for example. So we won’t go down that road, because I think, obviously those are works in progress, but, but I want to, I want to take us back a little bit more to the specifics. So Ibukun you wrote in an article for for Canadian diversity magazine that the why, a little bit of the why, right? It’s relevant to explore if and how the digitization of health care impacts the experience of compassionate care for marginalized groups, including newcomers. So what did you find? Ibukun Abejirinde 23:26Big question and but very interesting. And the way I always describe this to people is be careful if you want to be a researcher, because sometimes you don’t find what you’re looking for. Sometimes you do find what you’re looking for, and it’s not what you thought you were looking for. And then sometimes you find what you’re looking for, and it’s much more than what you were looking for. And I think in our case, we fall into the last bucket. It was opening up this Pandora’s box. First off the bat, it was there were mixed perceptions and experiences of virtual care. And the findings were interesting. We did see that, you know, if we’re using this idea, which is very important, of layering and how one person is constructed and positionally located along different axes on a social scale, some patients preferred preferred virtual care. Others preferred in person care. But what was interesting was their social identities, of how far along Am I my migration journey, or the gender of is this someone who identifies as a woman or as a man, or their ethnic and cultural backgrounds, their comforts, digitally with digital tools, and also clinical factors like mental hits, health status affected how people perceived virtual care. And you could have the same person who would say, oh, in the beginning, you know, it was scary for me, because one of the things we did ask as part of the interview. Use was the first time you were told that you were going to have a virtual encounter as a newcomer. How did that make you feel? What were your thoughts? And what was interesting was people use the words of I was afraid. I was unsure. You know, it was weird to me. I didn’t know if I wanted to go ahead with the call. But later along the line, as they warmed up to being in Canada, how the healthcare system work, figuring out the relationship, settling themselves within their new context, they started having more positive experiences, because then they appreciated that it was convenient, that it saved them time, because they could then use the time. It was like buying back the time that you would take, taking the TTC, to go to the physical clinic. You go that and you’re going to look for work, or you’re working somewhere, you’re working multiple shifts, or you’re just staying at home, if it’s someone who has kids at home and they don’t have childcare. And so it was convenient, and it saved time, it saved cost, but there were also restrictions in where they could access virtual care, right in anecdotal anecdotally, the language is virtual care was universal and ubiquitous, but it wasn’t really ubiquitous for everybody, for refugees and asylum claimants, for example, or people who have a waiting period, although the waiting period was lifted during the pandemic, you are sort of streamlining to where you can go for care if you’re uninsured or if you don’t have the interim federal health coverage. So that had limitations to who they could see. I’ve talked about the temporal effect. So we did see that people who were early migration zero to six months, in some cases, up to a year. Virtual care was more was a more challenging pill to swallow initially, but once people started settling down, warming up, getting a sense of the system, understanding the trade offs and the options, then you know that we’re more open to it. One of the pieces of work we just finished is a comic that we co designed with a group of four newcomers based on the findings of this study, and we translated it to six different languages in addition to English, and I think you can include that in your show notes. Another thing that was interesting that we found was the trickle down effect, and it was actually that strand of findings that led us into the second project that we now call the beyond technology, beyond healthcare effects, which was their initial for most people, the initial overall reaction to virtual care had nothing to do with virtual care per se. So like I mentioned, people will say I was afraid, I was worried, I was unsure. And when we reflected, as a research team, we’re like, okay, like, it’s just a phone call. Why are people, you know, conceptualizing virtual care using that language? And when we dug in deeper, we found that their overall migration and settlement experiences, experiences in the pre arrival and early arrival stages, actually shaped and framed their expectations of healthcare in general. So for those who had very rough journeys, who experienced discrimination, social stigma, being gas lit, not being able to access housing support find a job easily, they translated and extrapolated these negative experiences to their expectations of healthcare. So it was more like you’re going to call me to have a conversation with me about my health. Who are you? You know, for those who are precarious status, is this going to be surveilled by the police? How is it going to affect, you know, my hearing, who is this person? I don’t know them. I can’t see them. So it was all that complexity. So we talked about how, you know, it became beyond technology. So that’s why the second project was beyond technology. Became beyond technology, because these were experiences that were used to describe virtual care that had nothing to do with virtual care, and to use Nancy’s language, we have to go to the more structural macro level determinants that shape these things. And I think the last point I will make regarding clinical findings is mental health was a very important modifier to how people experience compassionate care and virtual care, and there have been similar studies that found what we found, and that was the fact that even though, in general, most of everyone we spoke to did say that having a pre existing relationship with the provider facilitated a better virtual care experience, most people admitted that depending on the provider and The patient, it was possible for them to make the efforts to bridge the gap. However, particularly in those who had mental health challenges, it was very difficult. We did have one particular person who had established a relationship with her provider before the pandemic hit, she was going through severe mental. Challenges, which was actually influenced by social determinants of health. Her refugee claim had been denied multiple times, and her provider, pre pandemic, had been the one helping her navigate these complexities. And then the pandemic hit, and she was told, oh, all of your consultations with your provider is going to happen by the telephone. And she just went downhill. From there, she shared with us how this person who she had known prior became somebody that she didn’t know at all because she said she can’t see me, she can’t feel me. So how does she know exactly what I’m going through? So that that trust that had been established actually became broken because of virtual care? So yeah, I could go on and on about that, but just to give you a bit of the layers of the things that we discovered which then led us down to start this other project called Beyond technology, beyond healthcare. It’s Marco Campana 30:51interesting because, as you were speaking before this last example, I was thinking exactly about trust and rapport, because so much of health and even I mean, many social services have become very just transactional, right? And there’s there’s an expectation that you understand that, and you know that we’re going to have a conversation and I will tell you what to do next, or I’ll send you a prescription, or this 10 minutes is up, and you’ve moved on, because it’s and and for someone who doesn’t know that system, and in the context that you’re describing, comes out of a very hard experience, migration experience, and doesn’t have an opportunity to set up trust and rapport with that person, that transactional experience over the phone is fear inducing and anxiety inducing, potentially. But then it’s so fascinating to hear that even after you’ve established that trust and rapport, it can be broken based on the service modality alone. It’s the same person, allegedly, that’s that’s now long, no longer sitting across from you, but you’re having that conversation with that you had established a relationship with. And I wonder what does that mean for our systems of care? If, because that’s that, that’s a that’s a specific nuance, and it’s a specific group of people, but surely that those feelings in that experience must translate into other groups in society, which means it’s a bigger and even if it doesn’t writ large, it’s still a microcosm of an existing problem of some sort. So without delving into massive systems change, what is what does that mean for like as a settlement practitioner, let’s say, or a healthcare practitioner, I kind of already know this stuff, but I’m expected to be transactional in my approach. What can I do? Or what do you recommend people in those settings can do to at least create something a little more humane or or rapport building, or at least slow things down slightly in the process, to make sure that someone is comfortable and feels that compassion. Ibukun Abejirinde 32:44Nancy, do you want to Sure Nancy Clark 32:46this is my brain’s going all over the place. So Marco, one thing is that it’s not that people are not necessarily not doing anything it but I think, and, and it’s a hard question to answer, I think what I’d like to maybe touch upon is go back to the notion of pre arrival experience. And a lot of the time there’s this discourse that, oh, when people they’ve been granted refugee status, meaning they’re granted some security and safety, as defined by the United Nation High Commissioner for Refugees. And so with that, you know, notion of safety, there’s this tendency to forget what happened before people arrived, and it’s something that I think matters in terms of how we deliver care. So sometimes I think more education can be helpful in terms of what were those pre arrival experience? Because most refugees are residing in camps or host countries prior to them, waiting to come to Canada. During those experiences, there’s very little health care access. Sometimes there’s issues of violence, there’s issues of trust, so the disruption of war and the displacement already comes with these pre migration experiences. So you’re right. There are some sort of expectations post migration that I’m going to be cared for, looked after, etc. And then we have this bigger sort of discourse of trauma, and we look at it as a one point in time situation. It is not. It is what we found with research is about one in five people that have been affected by displaced dis. Placement related to violence of war experience, some sort of mental health condition. That does not mean that people go on to develop post traumatic stress disorder and that, you know, they’re going to be living with these conditions. What where it matters is in the resettlement context, is that what we know is that that context, in and of itself, can compound pre existing risk factors for mental health, what we call mental health, when I say mental health, there’s a distinction between a mental health condition or overall health promotion, social determinants, type of things. So one of the things that does compound risk is this notion of sort of how we’re treated, and that’s what you’re talking about, about experiences of discrimination, distrust, and I think I don’t have the answer, but I think that understanding a little bit more about the pre migration experience and context and where people come from, I’ve heard over and over again In different research projects with working with different migrant groups that it matters that the provider knows something about me. So in other words, the burden of responsibility for compassionate care should not be, should be on our health system to actually try to understand, you know, where people are coming from their situation, and there should be more flexibility. So compassionate care and virtual care can be seen as sort of these, one on one, inter interactions, but not necessarily. Sometimes it involves more than this sort of provider care. You know, care seeker person. What we know is that the majority of people experience severe language barriers, severe literate literacy barriers, as you mentioned already, with health system navigation and so one way where technology can be really beneficial is with mitigating some of the language barriers, and when we and this can be very tricky, because mental health is highly stigmatized, so it begs the question, what are our studies showing, and how is Mental Health sort of constructed when this is a highly stigmatized across, you know, cross culturally, globally and also within our own Canadian culture, you will not find people saying, Hi, I’m here because, you know, I have depression, or I Have post trauma, post traumatic stress disorder, what you will find is, I can’t sleep at night. So when we’re talking about compassionate care, it’s the burden of responsibility should be around looking at so what can we do to make to if you’re not sleeping at night. What is the root cause of that? Well, I have to travel two hours to get to work, and then I have to work 14 hours, and then I’m worried about not making enough money because I have to send money back to my family. That’s also what you know. So it becomes this whole really understanding and knowing the context and the situation of the person. And so when we think about developing trust, that’s that’s where I think it lands, is what do? What do I need to know about you, and positioning oneself as somebody that, how can I, how can I learn about what what matters to you, what’s important to you? They may be coming in because, you know, they’re for various reasons. Well, they’re anemic, but they’re anemic because they can’t afford nutritious food. So for me, that’s where I see that trust and that compassion really being operationalized, is if we can try to think about coming at it as you know, what do we need to know about this person and their context of why they’re here? And not to forget that what happened before someone comes doesn’t stop when somebody arrives in Canada, it’s actually it, it gets compounded. It’s a very complex situation. And yes, over time, acculturation, people get used to navigating systems, etc, etc, but, but that doesn’t also necessarily mean. That there, as you were mentioning, there’s more trust or more equitable access. So that’s sort of my response to some of the things that you’ve been talking about, and especially coming back to the notion that Ibukun mentioned that most of the providers in the settlement sector, particularly, have lived experience already, and so really paying attention to some of like that, should, should they take the burden of all of that like, like, really, as a society, we need to support those people and, and, yeah, in terms of looking at the broader, sort of the broader notion of, I always go back to the structure and and how sort of that social justice or distributive justice works In terms of equitable distribution of resources, so that we’re not just talking about virtual care and primary care, or we’re not just focused on the settlement sector, but really, how do we make sure that there’s equitable distribution of health resources and then recognition that there are differences between social identities and groups, but there’s also some similarities and things, and we also know a lot. So how do we implement what we know in terms of promoting equity, trust and better care? Ibukun Abejirinde 41:33Nancy, actually, I feel like you were picking my brain and answering that question, because the first thing for me, you know, when Marco asked that question, like, within the sector, what is the one on one thing? Let’s, let’s, let’s not try to make any policy changes or systemic shifts. The settlement sector is doing such a great job. I have to say, like, I have a lot of respect for settlement workers. You know, like I shared earlier, Nancy also acknowledged, now it’s the lived experience puts people in a great position to be able to understand preemptively, just because you’ve gone through it, many settlement sector providers can say, I kind of know what this person is going through. And so there’s a, there’s a great work being done there. But in querying that question of at the expense of what, what, where it’s burnout and it’s fatigue and it’s compassion deficits, there’s actually a term called compassion fatigue that comes out of the moral injury and moral distress when you’ve identified the need and you’re trying to address it, but because of all these other complexities in the system that you’re leaving with, you can’t address that need. And that’s something that we’re seeing happening with care providers all around, both within and outside the settlement sector. And so we, we started querying this idea of the need to advocate and support or engender systemic compassion. Because compassion has, currently, I think the conversation has currently been limited to the one on one interaction, and I think that there’s just so far that one on one interaction can go. We have to start looking at what are the systems and structures that enable and foster people to be able to deliver compassionate care at the individual level. So that’s one to what Nancy was saying about pre arrival work. So I think that one of the things that can be done is to really find a way, and I think this is a way that technology can help to expose newcomers. Again. When I’m using that term, I use it very broadly, immigrants and refugees to Canada, about the healthcare system and the social system, pre arrival, or area arrival. I know that you know, at least for economic immigrants, you will get this sort of blurb from IRCC when you’re coming in that says, here’s a pre arrival list. And there’s all these hyperlinks of, how do you find a job? How do you get a house? But there’s the health issues are usually silenced and not paid attention to. But what our research shows is that the gaps that the social system ends up not being able to meet the social determinants, they end up falling at the bedside of the clinician. So we talked about this concept when we’re looking at it temporarily is from border to bedside, structural determinants of health, social determinants of health, they land at the bedside of the care provider. So how do we handle these at an upstream level? And so I think there’s knowledge and expectations setting that can happen, pre arrival or early arrival, because when people manage their expectations or know what to. Expect. They don’t feel disappointed and let down, and that shapes their overall experience, right? So it’s, for example, you’re going to your doctor or your dentist, and they’re like, oh, you know you’re coming in, and you would just wait about 15 minutes and it should be fine. And then you go there and you wait for three hours. That already tankers your entire experience, even if you get the care eventually that you’re looking for. The third thing I wanted to talk is about data mobility. I feel like migration is about mobility from a policy perspective, you know, you can say what are the different factors that shape why people move, but I think that there’s an opportunity here, from a technological perspective, to look at what is the data, the information and experience that people are coming into Canada with, and how can we receive that information very early in their journey, so that before they have that first conversation with an intake worker or with a physician or with a social worker, somebody already knows the backstory without asking them to rehash it all over again and possibly re traumatizing them. We don’t have very good interoperability of data sharing within the sector. So if I go to one walking clinic and I narrate my entire experience, and then I have to go somewhere else. My data doesn’t move with me as a newcomer, and then I have to rehash it all over again. And I think that that is frustrating and but that’s something that can be fixed. Like that’s a problem that can be fixed. Um, the fourth thing I will say, I’m sorry if I’m just going on, it’s just because this is one of the rich Pandora’s, you know, you open the Pandora box and there’s all this thing in it. Wow. This is great, please. Yeah. Nancy had talked about one of the surprising things that came at us through the dialogs, and we’ve seen continue to manifest afterwards, is the muscle level, which is the sector, the settlement sector, the providers, community organizations. There’s a lot of power activity, energy that is happening there. The one of the challenges is that it seems all of this knowledge and expertise is siloed, because the sector is not speaking to each other. Organizations are not talking to each other enough. Like I appreciate this podcast, because, like you said in the beginning, it’s opening up the conversation more broadly, and when we had the beyond technology, beyond healthcare dialogs, at the very last day, which was a co design event where, which bringing people together to co design, what does the best in class experience look like for newcomers? There was just so much energy in the room and hope that filled the space, because everybody felt there’s something I can learn from you that you’re already doing and I can adopt in my practice. There’s this insight you share during the breakout group that I had, you know, I thought that’s the solution to the problem we’ve had in my organization for five years. And so that event, you know, through it, we’ve built this community of practice. We now have a newsletter. We’re hoping that we can keep that community engaged and energized, but I feel like there’s a lot of power and richness that can come from different organizations coming together to support each other and exchange knowledge, and I think you do that very well with the km hub, where you know you just have all the information so that people can be aware of what others are doing. And I think the last thing I will say is what has become clear through our study is compassion. Compassionate Care is a social justice concept. It’s not just, and that compassionate care cannot just end at the clinical encounter or at the bedside. Compassionate Care, from a provider’s perspective, is advocating for better policies. It’s supporting your patients to have good civic engagement, to understand their rights, to know how to advocate from for themselves, to understand the resources that is accessible to them. I really feel like the second sector is doing quite a good job under challenging circumstances to do that very well. I feel like the rest of society needs to come on board and support that sort of work. Marco Campana 49:10Thank you. Thank you both. I want to unpack the last thing, because when you say compassionate care is a social justice issue in theory, so too is virtual care or access to digital inclusion and digital equity is a social justice. If we’re going to be able to do virtual care effectively, we need to look at the question of digital inclusion from both the newcomer in this case, or the client or stakeholder or community side, but also the service provider. And I know that that that conversation came up in your in your in the first project in particular, like, how do we ensure that these people were now layering a second system on in terms of how they provide service. Can do that and do it in a way that that they feel competent, capable, and it’s not on the side of their desk. And and also, how do we ensure if we are moving to new versions of accessing service through virtual care? That the people who want to be able to access it have the skills, technologies, bandwidth, you know, abilities, in order to do that. So I wonder, and I know that came up as a conversation for you, is that part of the conversation that this group has been in the CO design or in the work that you’re doing, in the beyond technology project you’re looking at, Ibukun Abejirinde 50:21yeah, great question. Marco, yes, it did come up. I feel like between compassionate care, like you said, compassionate care, virtual care, digital health, AI trust is central to everything, and the the inability of certain groups within population to engage meaningfully, meaningfully and fully to the extent that they want within a very digitally enhanced society, whether it’s healthcare or the banking sector or education or whatever it is, I think that’s a very crippling effect. And some of the things that we talked about that came out from the CO design is lack of access to the hardware, right, lack of or insufficient, let me say, because we are now seeing a demographic shift in the profiles of newcomers, asylum seekers, refugee claimants that are coming in that is that goes beyond the stereotype of, oh, you know, they can’t speak English, or they have this every accent. We’re seeing a rise in highly educated professionals who are coming in so that digital literacy, but also digital comfort, right to be able to demonstrate your skills comfortably in a for lack of a better word, psychologically safe environment, right? So internet bandwidth, one of the one of the exercises that we did at one of our engagement sessions, and we’re talking about trying to walk through, what does a person need to need we need to do to be ready for their virtual care appointment? And a person we lived experience as a refugee was in the room, and everybody was talking of, you know, going through, you know, they have to schedule the appointment, and they click on the Zoom link and blah, blah. And someone said, Well, you have to recognize that we come into the country and we actually have mobile phones, smartphones, but nobody really realizes that some of the smartphones we come with are not compatible in Canada, and that’s one challenge. So we have to solve that compatibility issue right with the same card fitting in and everything. But then the second bit is, you can’t get a mobile line without an identification or a sin. And if I’m a refugee claimant and I don’t have all my documents, or I’m someone with precarious status, I don’t have that so I can have a smartphone, it doesn’t mean I have access, and we’re like, oh, we need to go back, like the journey starts very early on. So we need to really think about the step to step of how we’re designing digitally enabled systems. And we have to design for equity, because if we design for the least group, the most marginalized group as as a professor, Stephanie Nixon, will call it the bottom of the coin, everybody else will be able to have access. But I think there’s this predominant where we are designing and using technology in a very transactional and commercial way, where it’s it has to work for the majority, and once it works for the majority, we don’t care about anybody else, so I feel trust, equity access very key in how we’re supporting populations to be able to access and make the best of the potential of virtual care and other forms of technology. Marco Campana 53:56That’s another great example of nuance in digital inclusion. So you’ve got the phone, well, so what if you, if you if it’s not compatible, or you can’t use it, or the system that you’re trying to connect to isn’t mobile friendly, for example, which we find a lot in the settlement sector. I want to ask one question related to because we’re talking about virtual care, and in person care a lot. And in a nuance in our sector, we’ve been talking a lot about hybrid care, the idea that you can access services in person and online, remotely and and move fluidly between those. So it’s a high bar that we’re trying to reach. But do you do is that part of this conversation of virtual care as well, that client that people accessing health can do both. They’re not just an in person client or a virtual client, but they’re a client who will sometimes come into in person and sometimes on the phone or by video call, or what it might be, is that part of this conversation, or is it more of a binary kind of either or? Ibukun Abejirinde 54:47No, I think it did come up in the reimagining virtual care study, but it came up with a but so when we finished the study, we did go to the three different community organizations that partnered with us. And supported us, and we’re sharing the findings. And it was interesting that compassionate care was conceptualized as giving the patient the option to choose what is best for me right now, do I want to have a virtual appointment, or do I want to come in person? And one of the feedback we got was for the patient to be able to choose in an empowering way. We have to assume that they’re making an informed decision. And if you don’t understand the Canadian system and how care is delivered, and what circumstances I can make a diagnosis or not, or the information that the clinician has, then the patients may not always know this is the right thing for me right now, it takes a while, and it takes a different kind of patience to be able to say I can make the decision for myself. And this is something we captured in the comic, the Knowledge Translation comic that we released recently, which is you will see in the comic. The comic tells the story of two different newcomers, different genders, and their experience with virtual care, navigating that decision making. And for both of them, there was always this prompt of, would you like your next appointment to be virtual or in person? And you will see in the comic the person thinking and the woman, in one case, who had a toddler at home, was like, I don’t think this is going to work for me, because the only way she had had a virtual encounter and the baby was crying in the background, and she’s like, the only way you work for me is if I can get my friend to come look after the child, or my husband stays at home with me. So it’s all of that. What are the decisions, or what is the information that people are using to make a decision about what is right for right now and for me, and I think it’s going to change from day to day, from circumstance to circumstance. So hybrid definitely needs to be the option. The Interview showed that people felt that virtual was good in this context versus that context, going back to Nancy’s point of, we have to think about what works, what doesn’t work, for whom, under what circumstances, why. But Nancy, I don’t know if you have anything to add on that point. Nancy Clark 57:10No, I don’t have too much to add. One thing that strikes me in this conversation is sort of the that question that you just said, but also, what role does virtual, digital health play in the overall healthcare experience of newcomers? And I think that there could be a lot of positive a lot of I think one of the words that was used was empowering, or empowerment. And sometimes we come at this from a deficit base, meaning that, you know, there’s this tendency when we apply intersectionality to look at the marginalization, the the lack of voice, the lack of agency. But there may be, in fact, what newcomer the knowledge that newcomers bring, or newcomers that have been here for a while, that hold particular expertise. And so how can we harness that knowledge to promote change? And so I always think about this notion of belonging and connection. And if we come back to can virtual care in whatever modality is used, if it can promote belonging and connection, I think then we can also address the issue of trust and perhaps even well being. What we want to do is make sure that it doesn’t further what I mentioned earlier, marginalized, stigmatize or re stereotype. So even in the process of CO creating tools, or, you know, there’s a lot of work being done in M health now with promoting these apps that can have better access for mental health, for example. But, but you know, if we’re co creating like, I think the inclusion of people and their knowledge is important for creating these new tools and technologies, but also when we’re creating that, that that we don’t re stereotype in a way that, you know, like I said, force reinforces this marginality versus really thinking about, You know, people already come with knowledge and again, what I know from my research is that for newcomers, it’s important that providers know something about them, but it’s also important that providers don’t box or categorize people in ways that a. Make assumptions that this is going to be a barrier for you or not, and so I think coming back to that notion of empowerment. And you know, it may be that people are already quite used to some technology, but we know that globally, there is a digital divide as well, as well as when we think about gender as well, so meaning people that are more literate, literate tend to have better access. People that have better wealth tend to have better access. And generally, that tends to not be women in general, and making that generalization, so it just comes back to some of the points that we become raised already earlier. And I would sort of leave with, you know, how can we promote compassionate care, but also better connection and belonging for newcomer people in Canada, Marco Campana 1:01:05I feel like we could have this conversation for a few more hours, but I want to be respectful of your time, and I mean, maybe we will revisit this in a future conversation. So I just the final question I want to ask then for you, Ibukun, is there’s a lot of places this work has taken you, the Pandora’s boxes, as you mentioned, and there’s a lot of places it could go. So where are you hoping, or where are you taking this work from here in terms of next steps? Ibukun Abejirinde 1:01:27Um, good question. So I think one is recognizing the energy, the assets, um, that already exist, and elevating, championing and maintaining that which we’re doing through the community newsletter, and sort of trying to keep a community of practice engaged for sharing, mobilization and moving the work forward. The second is the last day of the dialogs. Was a co design event about designing a best in class experience for newcomers, and what came out very clearly is within the specific context for immigrants and refugees. Technology has a role that it can play in supporting navigation and enhancing that experience, but it has to be human powered. We can’t leave technology to do its thing by itself. There’s what technology is great at doing, and I think we need to champion and ensure it’s doing that, but there’s that human connection that technology is not able to bridge. And so we’re thinking of what would it mean to deliver a best in class experience that is human powered, technology enhanced and is supported by very transparent, accountable and equitable governance framework. So we sort of have straw drug ideas that came out of that CO design event, and now needs to secure some funding to be able to do some interventional work to translate those ideas into a prototype and test it and see how it works to support navigation and to enhance the settlement experience, we’re also still disseminating our work to different audiences. Upcoming webinar that will happen with n4 we’re going to be at the metropolis social determinants of health conference to share some of our findings, disseminating the comic that I shared about which you can put in your show notes. And there’s continued work now in putting together the paper, a paper which is more to an academic audience, but translating that into this idea of intersectionality as acknowledging that they are existing solutions that we can leverage. And what does it mean to get that work going? So I feel like that’s one place we are at now where we’re seeing very clearly that at their mechanisms at the miso level. And when I say that, I’m talking about within the settlement sector and from community organizations that can be activated to get things done despite the limitations within the overall, broader system, and so thinking through and talking through, what does it mean to be able to do that work within pew region? One of the things that is coming up, and I’m sure you’re aware that there’s a crisis of trying to support refugee claimants and asylum seekers who are coming in, are trying to navigate finding shelter, food, settling. There’s workshops that have been, I’ve been co leading with the Region of Peel, Mississauga oht and the local immigration Partnership, which is pure newcomer Strategy Group, to think through, how do we build accessible, equitable and quality pathways for refugee claimants and asylum seekers to be able to navigate the system in a way that is compassionate, that is trustworthy and is responsive to their needs. So just a couple of things that have been coming up. Nancy, I don’t know if there are other things I may have missed that you want to add as well. No, Nancy Clark 1:04:56no, I think that’s pretty thorough. We’re pretty I’m pretty. Excited about that conversation, and it’s, it’s sort of like we’re trying to catch up with you know, we’re already live, we already have all these complexities. And as you said, Marco, now we’re adding the digital solution. And so just to be mindful again, that we’re not saying that the digital culture is the solution, however, it can be very a very useful tool when used appropriately, and that really that human experience is at the heart of care for providing the best care, the best equitable care and the best compassionate care. Marco Campana 1:05:43I think that comes through really strongly. So fingers crossed for the funding, but it sounds like there’s lots of touch points now and in the future where people can find out and maybe tap into the work as well. So thank you both. Thank you. I’ll just is there anything I haven’t asked you or that you want to make sure people know about before we finish up? This has been a really rich and interesting conversation and lots to think about. But is there anything that you’re dying to say that I haven’t asked you or given you the chance to throw onto the table? Nancy Clark 1:06:11Well, I just want to put in another plugin for mental health. I guess I feel compelled, because that’s sort of something I’ve been trying to work on and understand, especially when it comes from different cultural worldviews and perspectives. And I wonder if we make that assumption that the digital that these tools that are, you know, AI, you know, info use, AI, if that is something that would be a natural go to culturally speaking. Because, as I mentioned before, mental health is is a social construct. And yet, globally, we have this dispo, you know, we have these mental health conditions across cultures, such as severe, persistent mental illness, and all the way to, you know, post traumatic stress, stress, schizophrenia, etc, etc. So when we’re thinking about that too, to think about what would be the first thing that people would need or go to for support. And so I guess I’m answering my own question, coming back to this notion of the human experience and that that shouldn’t be disconnected from these tools. I Marco Campana 1:07:35think that’s a really important point through all this, some people talk about with AI, for example, the AI sandwich start with the human, use AI as a tool, and then end with the human to make sure that everything is is not hallucinating or is not leading people astray, for example. So Ibukun any final thoughts? Ibukun Abejirinde 1:07:53I think this is a conversation starter, and there’ll be many more conversations to have. I think for us, it’s we’re very we think as in a very applied way. So it’s like, Okay, we have the theory, we have the framework, we have the tools. We know all of these things. What? How does that translate into action? And so I’m very curious, and literally having an invitation to say, anyone who has ideas on how to move this work forward and the role that we as applied researchers could play in contributing to that work, we’re happy to support and champion it. Thank you very much for having Marco. Marco Campana 1:08:30I love that idea too. I appreciate that because I think there are people who have ideas and questions but have no outlet for them, so that’s a great invitation. I appreciate that. Thank you both conversation and as you said, we’ll continue it, but a lot here for people to reflect on. So thank you for that. Nancy Clark 1:08:48Thanks for the opportunity. Marco thanks Ibukun, Ibukun Abejirinde 1:08:50thank you. Marco Campana 1:08:52Thanks so much for listening. I hope you found this episode interesting and useful for you and your work. You can find more podcast episodes wherever you listen to your podcasts or also on my site at marcopolis.org I appreciate you listening. And if you have any tips, suggestions, ideas or want to be interviewed, or know someone who wants to be interviewed, please drop me a line through my website or [email protected] Thanks again.

Welcome to episode 45 of the Technology in Human Services podcast. In this episode I chat with Tracey Mollins from AlphaPlus, an organization that provides digital support and solutions from peers in Ontario’s literacy community. Tracey is a Professional Learning Specialist – Education and Technology at Alphaplus. She has worked in adult education at community programs, school boards, colleges, universities, unions and network organizations. Her work is informed by her experience as an instructor, program worker and researcher as well as project experience developing e-learning strategies, blended or distance curricula and models for online instructional design. She is especially interested in investigations into connectivism ~ diversity, autonomy, interactivity and openness + creativity, collaboration, camaraderie, critical thinking, justice, kindness, freedom and fun ~ in digitally-mediated networks. I’ve written that I think that the Immigrant and Refugee-serving sector needs an AlphaPlus to help support our hybrid service delivery evolution and work. I wanted to talk to Tracey to find out more about how they do their work and what we can learn from and replicate. Some of the questions we discussed: Our sector has seen an increase in awareness about how digital technology can be part of a useful and practical service intervention model, bringing along some workers and organizations that were more skeptical before the pandemic. Have you seen a similar trend in your work and sector? What I’m particularly after is how the support models came about and their impact/outcomes on the literacy sector. In our research about other interesting digital literacy and inclusion models, AlphaPlus came up as something our sector could learn from and replicate. As mentioned I think we could spend a nice chunk of time discussing the AlphaPlus support model focusing on your Coaching, Quick Tech Help, Educator Network, the Digital Toolbox course, Wayfinders and Community Gabfests, a well as Custom Solutions for service providers.Let’s start with the overall mission of AlphaPlus and the ways you support literacy service providers when it comes to digital strategy, implementing digital tools in their literacy work, and more. The Immigrant and Refugee-serving sector also wants to “use digital technology to increase the relevance, responsiveness and reach.” You help both adult literacy educators integrate technology into teaching, as well as program managers and co-ordinators integrate technology into program administration. That seems like an important combination, getting the front line as well as agency leadership literate and involved. Can you tell me a bit about the different challenges and approaches that come with those 2 different groups? Can you tell me about some success stories in that work, as well as some of the challenges you still face? If we were thinking about creating some of the services and supports that you have created at AlphaPlus in our sector, what advice would you give to help get us started? Machine-Generated Transcript What follows is an AI-generated transcript of our conversation using Otter.ai. It may contain errors and odd sentence breaks and is not a substitute for listening to the audio. Marco Campana 0:00Welcome to Episode 45 of the technology and human services podcast. In this episode, I chat with Tracy Mullins from alpha plus an organization that provides digital support and solutions from peers and Ontario’s literacy community. Tracy is a professional learning specialist on education and technology at alpha plus, she’s worked in adult education, community programs, school boards, colleges, universities, unions and network organizations. I’ve written before that I think that the immigrant and refugee serving sector needs and alphaplus to help support our hybrid service delivery evolution and work. So I wanted to talk to Tracy to find out more about how they do their work and what we can learn from and replicate. Our sector has seen an increase in awareness about how digital technology can be part of a useful and practical service intervention model bringing along some workers and organizations that were more skeptical before the pandemic alphaplus has done a lot of work during had after the pandemic and before the pandemic, to move these models long to ensure that digital technology is integrated in an inclusive and equitable way. And I think you’ll find this a really useful conversation and of interest to anyone who’s thinking about what their sector any nonprofit or charitable sector might need, when it comes to supports, interventions, and an organization like alpha plus to provide them with some direction, I hope you find it a useful conversation. Welcome, Tracy to the technology and human services podcast. I wonder if you can start maybe by just telling us a little bit about yourself, your background and what brought you to the work that you’re doing now? Tracey Mollins 1:30Yeah, so I’m I working at alpha plus. And I work there as the Professional Learning Consultant. So my, my bailiwick at alpha plus is working with cohorts of adult instructors in the literacy and basic skills field, and mostly on on questions around blended learning, and integrating digital technology into teaching and learning. So alphaplus has a much broader Tracey Mollins 2:02remit for digital technology. But that’s my my area will probably talk about the other things we do a little bit later. And I started as a volunteer tutor in a literacy program in Toronto here. Tracey Mollins 2:16And then I worked as a as a supply instructor, and then as a link instructor at the Toronto District School Board. So that was my first full time paid position as an adult educator was in the Link program and that ESL literacy class, which was fantastic. And then oddly, I got that class closed eventually. And I started teaching in a computer lab at the at the school board, which was quite a weird experience. And, and after the school board, I went back to community based literacy, actually, in the program where I had been a volunteer, I worked there for a couple of years. And after that, a group of literacy, workers from across the country started a journal called literacy. And I became the publisher of literacies, for about six years, was funded through the National Literacy Secretariat, and was part of that movement of sort of research and practice and trying to create a pan Canadian sort of professional learning network for literacy workers, because nothing like that sort of existed. And the the purpose of literacies was to start a conversation between literacy practitioners and literacy, education, researchers create that conversation. So that was part of it that but at that time, and after that, since then, I’ve been working mostly on contracts, and different all kinds of different projects, often projects that include some element of digital technology. And I came on staff at alpha plus about five years ago. Marco Campana 4:16I love it. I love hearing people’s meandering kind of paths. But it’s great that you’ve also worked in the settlement sector, which is, which is kind of where this, this podcast is kind of centered. And also, I just came out of a conversation earlier this morning about building communities of practice and collaboration and things like that. And so I wonder how how, how successful was that effort because it’s so important to bring practitioners together with each other, but also with researchers and policymakers and decision makers at a broader level in the sector. And I’m curious how that contributes to the work that you do at alpha plus now just having had that experience of convening and trying to create collaboration. Tracey Mollins 4:54Yeah, no, I it has a powerful impact on the way I think about it. It’s, it’s a real shame that work kind of stopped when the National Literacy Secretariat was, I don’t know what you call it defunded changed. But because I first experienced it as a practitioner, I went to some the OISE here at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, they, they had some opportunities for practitioners to come in and work on small research and practice projects with a researcher from Boise. And that it was such a great experience, it was such a interesting way to learn and to understand my role as a, you know, the teacher as researcher role that you’re that you’re really always in. But it made it sort of intentional and, and because of the, because you had to do the reflective practice piece to be part of it, it made that piece of it much more intentional, as well. So I certainly saw the power of it, in terms of advancing my own practice, as an instructor, and then when when I was involved in the OISE, had a thing called the festival literacies, that was part of Ontario’s contribution to that pan Canadian network. And I was involved in a lot of projects there. And it was it, it did, it was a very powerful thing for all the people who participated in it, just in terms of being able to collaborate and to connect with each other, but also that sort of intentional examination of of their practice, always with the idea of, you know, making it more more relevant, more responsive, more engaging for learners who are coming to our program. So, Marco Campana 6:53I mean, yeah, that intent that intentional reflection is, it’s such a luxury I find in our sector and in so many others, but it’s so important if you can actually bake it in or build it into your work, because it just has an impact. It can shorten timelines, right? If you have time to reflect, you have time to change and iterate and maybe improve, right? Yeah, Tracey Mollins 7:11no, for sure. For sure. And it was a practice that I when I was working in the Link program at the school board, that was full time, or considered full time, you know, nine to three classes every day. And I tried to bake it in there. But, and I actually was fairly I did it. Okay, you know, as as, as you do, then you get busy. Sometimes it falls away. But I did keep records of what I did. And I would look back on it and think about what work. But one of the things about sort of being part of a community when you do it is listening to other people’s reflections and having feedback on what you’re doing as well. Right. So I think that piece is also also really helpful. It’s, you know, we and we don’t get those opportunities. As much as meaningly. We’d like to but yeah, I think that. Marco Campana 8:06Yeah, I mean, it’s, I feel like it’s become I mean, it’s always been important, but it’s, I feel like it’s become even more important. In particular, over the last couple of years, right, we’ve seen a huge increase in awareness during the pandemic, because everybody had to pivot to online and remote, but in awareness about how digital technology can be a really useful part, but also a practical part of service interventions. And in our sector, it’s brought along some workers as well as organizations and leadership that were really more skeptical before the pandemic. And I’ve heard this conversation and other sectors as well. I’m wondering if you’ve seen a similar trend in the literacy sector, with with people who are realizing the usefulness and the place, right, the appropriate place of technology in their work? Tracey Mollins 8:50Yeah, I think so. I mean, I don’t know if I would always characterize them as being skeptical. I think people could see the value of it, but I think it was lower down on their list of priorities in some ways, right? Because people were, they had curricular materials and activities and lessons that worked. They were sort of kitchen tested, they were and learners were engaged and, and learning what they wanted to learn. And so and so because of that, and because of this sort of time issue that always exists. It was something that a lot of people were doing sort of off the side of their desk, in a way, right? Oh, well think about it. And people did tell us they say oh, you know, I’ve been meaning to do this for ages, but it keeps slipping down the to do list because of so many other things that are happening. So I think people sort of had an idea of the value of it but Tracey Mollins 9:51not as a priority meeting. Right. So. So definitely with the pivot we were talking about That was, in another meeting, we were talking about a level setting Tracey Mollins 10:05activity. And I was thinking about that pandemic, in terms of being a level setting activity or event, right, where everybody sort of had to all the things they already knew, and all the things they didn’t know, yet, they sort of had to put all that into practice and kind of rise to the occasion. You know, so and, you know, it was an awful time, and a lot of people were being hurt in a lot of ways. And one of the outcomes for education, I think, across all jurisdictions of education with that it pushed us sort of rapidly along this road, that we’d been kind of ambling it down quite slowly. Before that, right. So I, you know, I mean, I think in some ways we were ambling we were sort of taking time to explore and evaluate and analyze. And, you know, how can this work, and we were doing it very, very slowly. But certainly, the pivot to remote learning during the pandemic kind of pushed us all into a similar place. So at the same time, which is unusual, right, in these times, right, everybody would be working from a similar place at the same time, so that afforded us a lot of interesting opportunities for professional learning, right, because there, there was a large group of people who wanted to learn the same thing at the same time. So that was kind of we actually worked with the Metro Toronto movement for literacy on something. Somebody who works at the charter school board started it. Her name’s Susan, the FAB, and she called it the Silver Linings cafe. Because it that was sort of the silver lining of it was that it did put us in this place where we could all learn the same thing at the same time. Marco Campana 11:57For sure, and the things that you were learning and working on the for alpha plus predated the pandemic predated the silver lining, if you will, because this is kind of the work that are parts of it, at least in terms of some of the services and the the help and the support that alpha plus provides. The literacy sector. Really, my sense is that, or I guess the question is, were you able to kind of hit the ground running with some of this stuff and just scale it up? Because it’s something that you were already working on? Tracey Mollins 12:24Yeah, no, we had? Yeah, for sure. We were in that position. Where we were, we had a sort of a bank of knowledge, a bank of resources, a way that we had learned how to work with practitioners. That’s quite that works quite well. So. So yeah, I mean, are first of all, like, everybody, right at the beginning to be at these meetings are like, wow, there’s just so much to do. And, and, and what what is the best thing to do so but as, as per usual, we kind of took our, our guidance was, what people were asking for, and what people were telling us. And, you know, some things really stood out in the beginning, of course, everybody had to learn how to use Zoom, and not just on their own computer, but how to help everybody get on zoom in on all kinds of different devices and in different configuration. So, you know, there were some basic things that really jumped out at us. But But yeah, and and I think also, I mean, I think one of the things is that there was a apple plus over the years had sort of laid some groundwork, right, so that people were in a place where even if they weren’t using digital technology, and all the ways that they ended up using it during that pivot, they they had been exposed to a lot of ideas, and they had sort of been thinking about a lot of things. So implementing it was a challenge, but the thinking behind it was sort of already percolating. And then, and we have obviously, different programs were in different places around that, but yeah, Marco Campana 14:14right. I mean, yeah, I’ve always looked to alpha plus as a sort of a role model organization, because you’re unique, at least in our sector, and in a research that we’ve been doing during the pandemic alpha plus kept coming up as something, you know, around digital literacy around digital inclusion, the you know, the research, the advocacy, the creation of resources, but certainly the support services as kind of a model that I see sectors like ours could could learn from sort of this central hub where this is the conversation. This is the expertise and people can come and know that they can learn from this place, but they can also get different kinds of help and support. I wonder if you’ve noticed yourselves as a unique entity in that way and and is it a wrap applicable model, I guess in other places? Tracey Mollins 15:03Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, we there’s an Oregon like, I don’t really know as much about them as possibly I should there’s an organization in California that’s similar, but on a much larger scale. I mean, California being a much larger place called Oh, 10. And I can’t remember what those initials stand for. But they they do similar work to us in some ways, and they’ve become sort of a hub for that. But I mean, I think so I think it’s, it’s taken a while, I think for alpha plus to get to this place in the field, and it steps slowly, in terms of the leadership role, and, and advancing that piece right around how sort of how that conversation between alpha plus and the field app. And that sort of evolved over the years, I feel when I came on. Five years ago, there was a project that was sort of waiting for me when I arrived, which was working on the paper, our alpha plus his position on blended learning. And I think that was a very interesting piece to do around saying what do we mean by blended learning, and not to say it in a prescriptive way, like everybody should be doing blended learning the way we think it is, but this is, these are the things that we that we think blended learning is, and this is, this is the way we think we can support the field to get to this place. And I think that was a really interesting exercise for us to go through. And, and now we have that paper that kind of grounds, our work and helps us decide what to do and what not to do right around our supporting people. Marco Campana 16:58So based on that, I mean, we’ve noticed that I would say, Well, I would say I’ve noticed that in the research that we’ve been doing in the sector is that your your approach, your the way you kind of center, work around digital literacy, digital inclusion, and blended learning was something that we really looked at as a sector as well, because it’s, it aligns really nicely with I think, the core values of our sector. And it was something that we saw as a, as a model to continue to kind of investigate. So not just the sort of the services and the support, but also just the way you approach technology. And thank you for the Oh 10 link, and now I’m on their site, I’m going to try not to look at it while we’re talking because it looks like such a rich, rich site of information, the outreach and Technical Assistance Network, and I’ll add it to the show notes, the Episode notes, so people can check it out as well. But yeah, there’s this there’s, I feel like there’s just such a possibility with things that we could learn from and, and, you know, replicate and scale, basically. So, I mean, let’s talk a little bit about that support model. You know, when I look at your site, I see things like coaching, quick tech help an educator network, a digital toolbox course, a Wayfinders, and community gabfests, as well as you know, offering custom one on one solutions for service providers. So I wonder if you can speak to what that ecosystem of supports? How is it how it’s evolved? And how it’s working? Tracey Mollins 18:22Yeah, sure. Um, so for everything we do? Well, maybe not. Yeah, for everything that we do. Our motto is, you know, learning first, technology second. So always behind the things that we do we learning is the first goal. We updated our our motto a little while ago to say, fun first, learning second and talk technology. Third, love it. Because we want to, because it’s important to engage people, right, and when people are engaged, and they can see, and they’re enjoying themselves, they feel like it’s a more pleasant way to go. So and it’s part of a sort of People First approach to the work, where we see ourselves, you know, more in a asset building role. And we we try to always start where people are at and help them get to where they want to go by listening to what what they have to say and and treating people well, knowing that people are the experts in their own context. So we don’t really come in with a lot of our ideas in the beginning, we do a lot of listening. I wasn’t around at alpha plus for all the conversations that evolved the coaching model, but But it’s definitely grounded in that idea that program workers and literacy practices are the experts of their own work. They know the requirements and goals of the learners they work with. And they just have a long and deep experience is supporting learning in their communities. And that there’s no one size fits all solution. And, and in our experience, you know, literacy workers are always trying to meet a lot of immediate, evolving, urgent, sometimes urgent needs in in the, in their programs and in the field. And the field is constantly changing. So coaches can help by taking on some of those change management roles. When people do want to make change in their programs, doing some of the research bringing the experience of other programs that we’ve worked with, who are trying to find similar solutions or dealing with similar challenges, or questions, we can help with planning and designing solutions. And sometimes we’re doing some training and providing some expertise in tools, and resources. And one of the roles that the coaches take on too is sort of to help projects keep moving, and not to slip down the To Do Lists too far. And so then I think you mentioned that quick tap tech help. And that’s the, the basis behind that is that a lot of programs, especially smaller programs don’t really have an IT department or IT support on site. So we’re there for that. So you can, if you’re, and you know, everybody knows what it’s like when you’re trying to do something new with technology, or you’re trying to remember something you did before and can’t remember how you did it, how frustrating it can be and how you can end up sort of scrambling down all these little rabbit holes as you’re trying to research it on the internet. So we have that service. So people can just get in touch with us and say I’m stuck in you helped me figure this piece out, right. And then that’s what we’re there. For. Sometimes people just get in touch with this kind of under that role, but and they’re just looking for a resource or something that they can’t find, or they heard somebody talking about in a webinar or something like that. So. So if either we have those answers at our fingertips, or because of our funding model, we have time to look them up. And maybe we can go down the rabbit holes a bit and find solutions for people and then bring back to them an answer that’s based on our research, right? So we can say we can look into these five things and era that advantages and, and drawbacks and each of those things? Well, and Marco Campana 22:35I mean, I can see the additional value, as well as that you’re not just like a tech help desk from Dell or something you actually understand. And you you had subject matter expertise in the sector. So you know, who these folks are their organizational cultures, the how they’re funded, even, which can have an implication on the kind of solutions that you might even recommend, right? And I imagine that’s incredibly valuable, to have that unique kind of approach as a as a as a, as a tech help desk, if you will. Tracey Mollins 23:04Yeah, no, we’re, we’re very grounded in the field, we, you know, we don’t know everything, but we do know a lot about what’s happening in the field. And, and, and what the parameters are burns. And sometimes when people are making choices, we know enough about their funding model to know, Well, you gotta go with the free choice, right? So that, again, you know, are the things right, so we don’t, we don’t sort of cloud the issue by bringing in a lot of things that are, you know, unaffordable or unattainable. So, you know, we have enough knowledge to be able to do that to sort of winnow things down. And when programs who are well funded or have maybe some project money and stuff come to us, we can, you know, we can expand the range of things that they can look at. Marco Campana 23:53For sure. And I mean, yeah, your connection to the sector, I’m looking at the, the virtual showcase, sessions that you’re running are and have run in the past. And you mentioned earlier that, that idea, kind of of knowledge mobilization, working within the sector, and what they know, because they’re experts in this as well. And the value of this peer to peer learning that you’re creating, where you’re bringing in people to talk about how I use tick tock to engage learners, right? Because, you know, again, people don’t have time to go down that rabbit hole, they hear, oh, you should be on YouTube, you should be on tick tock, you should be on Facebook, but But hearing the practical application in these sessions must be incredibly valuable for the for the other folks in the network as well. Tracey Mollins 24:32Yeah, it’s interesting, actually, because we’ve started including something in this showcases that, that field assets for because we were getting people to sort of talk about it. And, and people were saying we want to see more actual examples, right, like, of a, you know, a lesson with tic tock or something rather than just kind of talking about how we’re using it. So in the last session, which was about games and the He’s like Kahoot people used examples. And that was it was really fun. It was really interesting. And I think people really responded well to that. But yeah, for sure, I think when people can see how people are using something in their practice, in effective ways, it even if they don’t go to that particular tool, or that particular resource, it kind of opens your mind to possibilities that you might not have thought of before. And some of them can be very simple ideas. That don’t necessarily mean a lot of change, but small changes, starting around just different ideas about how to do things. And I we do here, and I think other researchers have found this, too, that sometimes people will hear about something this month, and they don’t really do, it’s just kind of in the back of their mind somewhere. And they don’t really do anything about it. And then one day, they’re working with a learner. And they all suddenly think, oh, yeah, I learned about acne. Yeah, that would really help this person, right in this situation. And they’ll go back to that, that resource, or that idea that they they heard about a long time ago. So it’s, it’s sometimes the impact can be immediate, you know, you see people like, the next day going, Oh, I tried this. And now they might write back to us and say, Oh, I tried it, and it was really fun. Or the impact that we probably it’s harder for us to quantify is how people are taking that on, and what it means for their practice in other ways, right? So how does it open up their mind to different possibilities? How does it make them think about digital technology in a more general sense, rather than around that specific tool? Right, Marco Campana 26:50so sometimes you can expand them down or narrow it into that tool, but sometimes it can help some expand them up into just that general sense of digital tools can be useful in different ways. And in a more kind of a generic sort of idea. Tracey Mollins 27:05Yeah, I think so. And I think when whenever you can get a group of practitioners together and foster conversation among them, I think the IT people really appreciate that. I know I always have, but just that learning from each other. And one thing we we hear sometimes when we when we’re talking to people, but you know, how do you like to engage in professional learning? And people will say, Oh, you know, what I really like is when I’m at a conference, and I have a hallway conversation with somebody, and they tell me something really, you know, I learned a lot there we have, I have lunch with somebody I’ve never met before. And we have a really good conversation about teaching and learning and stuff. And that’s what we tried to do with a gab fest. It’s a bit a bit weird, because we’re trying to create ad hoc conversation in a planned and scheduled manner. But but just those ideas that trying to give people opportunities just to talk to each other about whatever they want to talk about right around around their practice, especially using digital technologies, or teaching and learning. Marco Campana 28:16Well, it’s interesting, yeah, because it’s interesting, you say that, because I find it with digital, you’ve got to be intentional about serendipity almost, are intentional about creating those informal spaces, because they do just happen when you’re face to face at a conference or even in a workshop. And after you know, you’re walking away, you go for coffee or something like that. And we’ve heard a lot from folks in the sector that they’ve, they’ve had trouble kind of building that in without, because it doesn’t happen as naturally. Here’s your work. Here’s your webinar, here’s your q&a, and then we’re kind of done. So if they don’t build in some opportunities for breakout, or just like, here’s 20 extra minutes for everyone to stay in the virtual room and kind of, you know, mill about kind of thing. So So it’d be really interesting to see where where you get with the gab fests as potentially a model to kind of have that intentional serendipity. Tracey Mollins 29:03Yeah, it’s interesting, because that’s sort of what we talk about is the, in our description of it. Is that intentional serendipity? And what a weird idea that is. But, but yeah, so we Yeah, and we have people go into breakout rooms. And we give them a conversation starter, and we say if you talk about this fine, if you talk end up talking, and we don’t we’ve only done two of them. So we don’t actually even know sometimes what exactly they talk about in there. I mean, people tell us things when they come when they come back to the larger group, but we don’t really know. And I think that’s so yeah, so it’s it’s an evolving thing. We’re still trying to sort of figure it out. But yeah, just to give people some space to have those conversations that are fruitful and, and move their practice forward in unexpected ways, right. Marco Campana 29:57Yeah. And I mean, I guess it just creates a certain high are a level of accessibility if you can pull that off without having to require people to come physically together at a conference, which it’s just difficult for time, money, and and other resources, but, but if you can kind of replicate that in small chunks, then people, there’ll be people will continue to continue to continue to build those connections, regardless of where they are in the country. Yeah, Tracey Mollins 30:22no, I think so. Yeah, no, it’s true. It is, we don’t have lots of conferences, first of all, and then as you say, it’s the whole logistics and costs of getting there. So and it is something that we’ve thought about in terms of online learning is how do you create those spaces? Right? Because you do have to be more intentional about it. Right? They don’t happen by accident. So, right. So yeah, we’re trying to try to figure out that piece of like think instructors are trying to figure out that piece to write some of the ways. And some people have some interesting ideas. And I thought it was interesting, because when we went during the pivot, what during the Silver Linings cafes, you know, at the beginning, everybody was like, Oh, how do I get in touch with learners? Right? Like that was the main thing is just making contact with all the people who had been participating in programs and figuring that out? Because obviously, with some people, they had email connections and stuff, but not with everybody. And then how do I get everybody on Zoo? And then how can I find them something to learn? Right? Like, how can I get them connected to learning materials in this remote environment, but very quickly after that, people were like, Okay, now that I’ve figured out those pieces, the sort of logistical pieces how now how do I create engagement and space for learners to learn from each other and talk to each other and engage with, you know, the way they would in a classroom? It bricks and mortar classroom? Like how can I replicate those environments online, and I thought that was interesting, right? How quickly people came to around ideas around building community and sharing those kinds of ideas. So it was interesting, people shared lots of really cool, warm up ideas they were doing, and how they were kind of leveraging the fact that people were at home to talk about some different things, right? Like, bring your favorite ornament, and show it on Zoom and talk about that, you know, just doing some activities to sort of engage people differently in the online space. So it felt like a friendly and community space, just the way the bricks and mortar classroom could feel. Marco Campana 32:46Yeah, I mean, that creative resilience, we saw that in the settlement sector as well, people, you know, it was a big pivot, but within a week, a lot of organizations were, were just figuring it out and moving forward with their clients. Um, but what a what a difference I felt, I feel like it would have been tip have had an alpha plus to at least sort of gone to make a you know, the help desk and say, I’m freaking out, you know, can you help me at least figure out the logistics of zoom, because after that, that was the first hump. And then the second home was like, Okay, now being creative in using the tool. And because you’ve got sort of a, an ongoing community of practice, and you’re learning and sharing from what you’re hearing from others, you know, and I’m just looking at some of the past the wayfinding sessions, and just, you know, these are topics that are, that are that come up everywhere. And, and your connection to to your your community means that you could address these quickly and tell the story of how people in the sector themselves were addressing it. Tracey Mollins 33:45Yeah, for sure. And I think, yeah, it’s interesting, actually, one of those Wayfinders she was talking about, she participated in the Silver Linings cafes, and she was talking about how, when she, at the beginning, when she was just trying to figure out so many things, she was so exhausted, that she was finding it really hard to be creative. And she was spending hours trying to figure out how to connect with learners and doing things on email. And, you know, she said, she was just really, she, she got really tired and, and then and she said, You know, when I’m tired, I can’t be creative. And that’s why the Silver Linings cafes were why she really liked them, because she could figure out a lot of things there. And it made her less tired, so she could be more creative. And she was she was trying to figure out the other pieces of, you know, good learning, good learning environments, right, in an online in an online space. So yeah, yeah, I think it I think, having alpha I think a lot of people were happy to have alpha plus around during those days, and we were certainly busy but very happy to be busy as well. Yeah, Marco Campana 34:58no, I mean, that’s such a great story. I mean, it’s actually it feels like a huge success actually, in terms of the model, because for that one person, it’s like you described earlier, you know, they didn’t have to keep going down certain rabbit holes with the technology or the the engagement or the facilitation, because you were available to do that, as were others who came to those sessions. And so her ability to not be tired to be more creative to address things that maybe were more within her scope of interest or ability. She didn’t have to figure out that other stuff, because, you know, she got support from you and from from her peers. That’s a massive success in for an individual as well as the people who they’re serving. Tracey Mollins 35:42Yeah, know, for sure. Yeah. And that I mean, that’s our, our role. I mean, when we’d like doing those things, right, like, that’s so, you know, anytime we can do something like that, that, you know, that fulfills us as workers in the field. And, and that, it gives people a space to do the work that they should be doing. Right. Not worrying about how to access the zoom from an Android phone or, you know, yeah, I think so. You know, we heard all kinds of stories or people meeting learners in parking lots during the isolation days seems crazy now, doesn’t it? But you know, so the learner could hold up their device, and they could say, Oh, see, the button is there, right. Like, Marco Campana 36:26yeah, but that’s that makes all the difference then, right? Yeah, Tracey Mollins 36:31yeah. No, for sure. Yeah. But yeah, trying to describe it over a zoom session to somebody who’s, you know, it’s just, it’s crazy making? Marco Campana 36:40Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah, I mean, you, you were speaking a lot about the practitioner. So yeah, the practitioners, the teachers in terms of who you support, but you also at alpha, plus, you support program managers and coordinators, just around sort of broader technology integration. I wonder how the approach or the challenges are different between those groups? Yeah, Tracey Mollins 37:03it’s some. I mean, one of the things that’s interesting about it is that in our sector in the smaller part, and we tend to work more with the smaller programs. Tracey Mollins 37:11So in literacy in basic skills, there are programs that are in colleges, in school boards, and in community based settings. So often, the colleges in terms of digital technology, they have a support system around them in their college, so we don’t work as much and little bit, but not as much with those programs. And sometimes school boards, it depends, school board programs can be quite different. So the Toronto District School Board is massive. In some school boards, it’s the literacy program is much smaller. So we tend to work with the smaller programs. And a lot of the times in those programs, people are wearing more than one app. So you know, one day we might be talking to somebody as an administrator, and next day, we might be talking to them as an instructor, they might be doing both. And a lot of people who are in administration roles in especially in the smaller programs also have done even if they’re not working as instructors anymore, they still are. They have in the past worked as instructors. So. So the division between those roles isn’t like a big line. Right? It’s, it’s there’s a lot of crossover in terms of that. But you know, that said, Would before I came on staff at at alpha plus, I used to do interviews for apoplast, like I was on contract, and do interviews for potential coaching, programs that wanted to engage in coaching, and I would do the sort of ifs kind of sort of partly needs assessment, partly just a conversation about what the starting place would be for coaching. And I did notice quite a difference in terms of like, when I talked to administrators. And when I talked to instructors, I was mostly talking to administrators. And sometimes I just noticed the difference in those conversations sometimes, especially when they were talking about, you know, what they wished teachers would be doing. And then when you would talk to the teachers, just about the realities and possibilities in their classroom, it could be quite a different conversation. But yeah, I think working in both arenas is important for the field and important for us to get you to understand the the realities of the whole scope of where people are working. And probably this is similar in in the settlement and ESL, but the administration burden can be quite like the load of work that people are, the administrative side can be quite heavy. And there’s a lot of reporting like so there’s a lot of data collect Shouldn’t about learners, for example, and a lot of reporting to the funder about who the learners are, and then what the progress is that learners are making in the program. So, so programs are always looking to streamline those kinds of processes, right. And, and anything we can do to help them do that. And digital technology is, you know, one of the ways that you can streamline some of that stuff. So any thing we can do that lessens that administrative load, can leave people open to that more creative side of creating programming, and working on that side of things. So, so I think it’s, I think it’s important that way to work with administrators, because they’re often the leaders in in programs in terms of what programming is going to happen and, and making sure that their programs are meeting the needs of all the possible learners in the community. So the less time they spend, trying to figure out their drives and where everything is, the more time they have for that kind of that sort of work. Marco Campana 41:13Yeah, and I imagine having both sides also helps ground you in the kind of advice and help that you might provide, because you understand some of the limitations or the structural challenges that you know, a practitioner might have, because of the administrators own challenges and, and limitations and things like that. So, like you said earlier, here’s a bunch of different tools, but you’re going to need to choose the free one, because you’re not going to you don’t have the funding infrastructure to continue this over the long term and things like that. So it just makes it so much more practical. So I wonder, I want to wrap it up a little bit, because I know I’ve made you speak for so long. But there’s such a richness in, in what you’ve been able to do. And I again, I keep coming back to Alpha pluses is a model that our sector and others can use. But imagine that there’s things you wish you could be doing. So I wonder with all of the the services, the advocacy, the research, the impact and outcomes you have, if you could wave a magic wand, what would you want to do more of? Or differently or new? Or add to what you’re doing with alpha? Plus? Tracey Mollins 42:16Wow, that’s a big question. You Marco Campana 42:18have to dream now we’re not allowed to most of the time, but you know, here’s your, here’s your chance, Tracey Mollins 42:23do a lot of dreaming it at alpha plus, like we really do, and then we, you know, then we have to face reality. And so and we have great leadership there that, you know, our executive director definitely lets us dream a lot. And those are often some of our more fun sessions where we kind of, you know, pretend we work in a perfect world where we can do anything. And, and one of those dreams, actually, one of those sort of dreamy sessions was led to the educator network that I’ve been working on for a couple of years. And and I’m really enjoying it and the practitioners that participate in seem to really enjoy it. And I have a lot of dreams for that project. But I also it’s around I think it’s it’s partly around what we’re doing, but it’s partly around. How do we, in Canada, let’s say just build a culture of continuous learning, where it’s valued, and it’s built in. And I feel one of our real challenges is in doing our work, is that people don’t have time. And there’s no time built into their work day. Right? Professional Learning, or, or reflection, or, you know, even if they weren’t doing it with us to do it somewhere. Right. So I feel like sometimes when we dream, we dream about system change, right. And we dream about, imagine a place where, where this was just a built in thing that it would be an expectation it would be funded, it would be supported, it would be people would have work time to do it in, they would have a time of day when they could go to things you know, that kind of thing is because I feel like that’s one of our so when we start to dream like, Oh, what if we could offer a program like this? Often the thing that makes us go Yeah, but who could come to it? Right? Like, everybody’s so busy and, you know, that would take that would take an engagement of several weeks or several hours or something. So who could who could participate in it like, and are we building things that, you know, would we be building things that nobody could have access to? You know, what’s the point about really? So I think That’s. Yeah. Marco Campana 45:05That’s a huge dream. I share your dream. We haven’t you know, I mean, right now we have to ground ourselves in reality. But I think like you said the importance of earlier, for example, not being too tired to be creative, because if you dream, sometimes you create something like the educator network. So I think that’s so important to continue to do that this is, you’ve just reaffirmed my love for alpha plus, and how will we have to bring you or your model to our sector, so I appreciate that. And now that’s my dream. So we’ll see if we can ground that in some reality eventually. Is there anything I’m curious that I haven’t asked you about that you want to share or you think is important to talk about when it comes to being, you know, that kind of support for, for nonprofits, for community service agencies, in this case, literacy service providers and facilitators that we should know about? Or be thinking about if we’re moving down this path as well? Tracey Mollins 45:58Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, when one of the things I was thinking about, when we were talking about doing this, I was thinking about, like approaches. And I was thinking, Oh, it’s interesting, because when I talked to my alpha plus colleagues, I was thinking about the words we use for the people that we work with, for example, right, like, so some people I work with talk about clients. And some people I work with, talk about customers. And my frame is always colleagues, right? Like, I always feel like I’m working with colleagues, but it could be because of this sphere, I’m working in that I work with instructors and on their professional learning, so and I was thinking, does that matter? Like, does it matter? What word we’re using the end? Does it change the way we operate? And I, I don’t really have anything, you know, firm or concrete to say about it. But it’s just a thing I’ve been sort of mulling over in my mind, like, what does it? How does that impact the work? And and do we? Are we working sometimes with people as clients, and sometimes as with people, as colleagues, and and maybe that’s how we, we can be successful, right is knowing when somebody is a client, and so we’re providing a service. And when somebody is a colleague, and we’re, you know, working together, kind of mode, right? So when, when do people just want us just to help them and just provide a service? And when do people want to be in conversation with us and, and help us learn as well, right? So about how to do the things we’re doing better? So I don’t know if that’s really anything, but I just know, I love it. I Marco Campana 47:46mean, I think language does matter. And I think the way we exactly I mean, we have that struggle in the sector, even when it comes to service providers to quote clients slash newcomers, slash communities. It’s a huge, it’s a huge topic. I think that keeps coming up. So I think I think that’s a great reflection, for sure to think about, as you’re building out these kinds of services and approaches, how are you? How do they want to be considered in that interaction or intervention? And how do they want to be treated differently? So that makes a lot of sense. Thank you. Listen, thank you for this conversation. Really interesting, really rich, and I appreciate it. Tracey Mollins 48:21Well, thank you, Marco. It’s been great chatting with you. And I hope we have lots more conversations. Not always on the podcast, but just Marco Campana 48:32absolutely, I look forward to it. Thanks again. Tracey Mollins 48:34Take care. Marco Campana 48:39Thanks so much for listening. I hope you found this episode interesting and useful for you and your work. You can find more podcast episodes, wherever you listen to your podcasts are also on my site at marcopolis.org I appreciate you listening and if you have any tips, suggestions, ideas or want to be interviewed or know someone who wants to be interviewed, please drop me a line through my website, or [email protected] Thanks again.

Welcome to episode 44 of the Technology in Human Services podcast. In this episode I chat with Lucia Harrison, CEO of the Kitchener-Waterloo Multicultural Centre about her experiences transitioning to hybrid services and a hybrid workplace that includes a 4-day work week. The effort, and it took a great effort, resulted in a 95% satisfaction rate from staff, particularly when it came to improved work-life balance. All organizations are going through this change, trying to figure it out, trying to find the right mix. Lucia has many lessons to share. Lessons you can implement in your organization. In OCASI’s January 2023 newsletter a number of sector leaders were asked to share their insights. Lucia’s caught my eye and I knew that we needed to dive in more deeply. At the core, her advice is to talk with your staff. Involve them in this whole process. Trust them. Make it something that you envision that you’re going to be working on probably forever. You’ll be tweaking this. You’ll always be piloting something. You’ll be trying new things. You’ll be learning as you go. I think you’ll find this an important and useful conversation for you. I hope you enjoy it. Background In January Lucia wrote: “Our agency has moved to a 4-day work week, with 2 groups on a rotation so each group gets a 4-day weekend every second week. We increased our workday to 8:45 hours. Everyone still works 35 hours. The centre is still open 5 days a week, and we have actually increased the number of hours our centre is open to serve clients. We implemented this in June and a survey conducted in Oct had a 95% satisfaction rate from staff. The most common comment in the survey was “improved work / life balance”. We also have most staff working on a hybrid model, except our LSP staff because of the nature of our agreement with the library. Our board approved this as a pilot in June and they have agreed to approve permanent changes to our personnel policy to reflect these changes. The board’s major considerations were 1) that our clients were being served, 2) staff well-being and 3) that we were meeting our funded commitments. We have seen increased productivity and based on our staff survey, we have boosted morale. It is working for us.” She expands on this and more in our conversation. Some of the questions we discussed: You’ve created an interesting and innovative approach to hybrid work at KWMC. Can you tell me how that evolved and where things are at now? What lessons have you learned that others in the sector could benefit from? What advice would you give other sector leaders who aren’t sure how to approach hybrid work models in their organization? What does client service look like in the new model? How have your clients reacted to this new approach? Machine-Generated Transcript What follows is an AI-generated transcript of our conversation using Otter.ai. The transcript has been edited slightly edited (name error fixes). It may contain errors and odd sentence breaks and is not a substitute for listening to the audio. Marco Campana 0:00Welcome to Episode 44 of the technology and human services podcast. In this episode, I chat with Lucia Harrison, CEO of the Kitchener Waterloo multicultural center about her experiences transitioning to hybrid services, and a hybrid workplace that includes a four day workweek. The effort and it took a great effort resulted in a 95% satisfaction rate from staff, particularly when it came to improve work life balance. All organizations are going through this change trying to figure it out trying to find the right mix. Lucia has many lessons to share lessons you can implement in your organization. In their January 2023 newsletter. O’Casey asked a number of sector leaders to share their insights Lucy has caught my eye and I knew we needed to dive in more deeply at the core. Her advice is to talk with your staff involve them in this whole process. Trust them, make it something you envision that you’re going to be working on probably forever. You’ll be tweaking this, you’ll always be piloting something, you’ll be trying new things you’ll be learning as you go. I think you’ll find this an important and useful conversation for you. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to the technology and human services podcast. Thank you so much for joining me, I’m gonna let you introduce yourself Lucia and tell us a little bit about where you’re coming from today. Lucia Harrison 1:11Hi, my name is Lucia Harrison. I’m the CEO of the Kitchener Waterloo Multicultural Center. We are a full service settlement agency. Obviously in Kitchener working throughout Waterloo Region. We have coming into 57 years of history of serving this community and serving immigrants, refugees, and those with no status. So I’m pleased to be here. Thank you, Marco. Marco Campana 1:38Awesome. And full disclosure for people listening. Lucia and I go way back. So if we get ridiculously giddy are there inside jokes, you know, just ignore us. I might keep those in anyway. But ya know, it’s so great to talk to you. And the main reason we’re talking today is because I actually have something that Debbie Douglas from O’Casey shared in one of her in last month’s newsletter, I think, where she was talking about how sector organizations are kind of adjusting to the emerging new realities of hybrid service delivery, but also hybrid work models. And she shared what you’ve been able to accomplish at the Multicultural Center. And it just struck me as something that there’s much more but not below the surface of that because it sounds like an amazing outcome. But I know that a lot of work probably had to go into doing it. So. So let’s talk about this interesting and innovative approach to hybrid work. And maybe you can just sort of start with how did that evolve? And where are you now? Lucia Harrison 2:33Well, if you want to talk about stars aligning, that that’s what I would say happened with us that despite all the negative impacts of COVID, there was a series of events that happen throughout COVID, that kind of gave us an opportunity. So we had put our building up for sale, Jerry COVID sold, it made a rental agreement on a new premise. That was bare walls. So we got to design from concrete. And we started to envision a space that would be different we had finally successfully pretty well gone paperless. Thank you COVID. We had everything stored in the clouds. Thank you COVID. It’s all secure. And but, you know, two years of working out of the office gave us this clean slate. And as a management team, what we decided is people in our sector can be a little hesitant was changed and you know, can be a little adverse to change that in a way it was kind of like, let’s just do this. Let’s do it all. What do we envision in future. And so we envision a hybrid model, it had worked very well for our organization, we had continued to serve the same or more clients. Our workshops were happening virtually. So that had worked, we knew it worked. But we knew we had a lot of clients who much preferred face to face service. We had clients who preferred virtual service. But we also wanted to be proactive that, you know, the mental impacts of COVID and the stress on staff. So I can’t talk about hybrid without sort of doing the full gamut that what we decided to implement was a hybrid work model. For all of those staff that we could do that with there are some that we could not and going to a four day work week, which the way we’ve arranged that gives every staff person a four day weekend every second week. So we were dealing with If you know this amazing space, how to best use it, how to best serve our clients, and how to deal with the mental health impacts, and they know the stresses on staff. So we implemented all of that, as we came back to work in April and May, when, you know, some of us had started coming back. So there was, there was no history said, we were kind of lucky, there was no history in this building. So, you know, and the hybrid work model does not impact our library settlement workers. That entire agreement is to have settlement workers in the library, I mean, really, to encourage people newcomers to come in to the library. But while working at the library, they’re still providing a mixture of virtual and face to face service, but they are providing a presence in the library. For everybody else, it is a two days in the office two days out of the office, unless needs come up. It’s kind of a minimum of two days. But if we need you in the office and other day, well, that’s, you know, what has to happen this week, we’ve accommodated people who for whatever reason, did not want to work from home at all. And they just come into the office there for days, and that works fine. We have an open table area that people can come. And if they need to just plug in for a little while they can do that. It was a long process. I joked with Marco before we went talked earlier that I’m using a lot of dye on my hair, because it’s gone very, very gray from the process of trying to find the schedule that would work on the four day schedule, as well as implementing the hybrid. But it’s now it’s gone very well. Maybe I’ll stop and see Marco, if you’ve got questions or want to lead in another direction? Yeah, Marco Campana 7:17no, I mean, all of that’s really useful. I have so many questions. But one of the things is that, as you wrote in what Debbie shared is that the result is a 95% satisfaction rate from staff. And the most common comment when you surveyed them was improved work life balance. And I think that’s something that had that came that’s come up a lot in conversations convenings, and surveys, during the pandemic, that this whole remote work thing worked for a lot of people. And it surprised a lot of people that they that they enjoyed it, that they were able to accomplish their work goals, you know, meet their outcomes and outputs, but that they, you know, didn’t have to commute that wasn’t stressed, dropping kids off and picking them up and things like that, in fact, some people are saving money, because they don’t have to do that pre and pre school and after school care, for example. So I wonder, as you’re talking about how the how you created the model, and as you mentioned, in our previous conversation kind of took 10 years of your life off. But you clearly worked with your staff to develop, what’s your what’s your you’re doing now? Can you speak? And that’s something that, you know, as a model, or at least I would assume you did, so you can correct me if I’m wrong, but I assume you work together as a team as an organization to kind of figure this whole thing out. And I know that that is a stress for a lot of people in organizations, but that I’ve spoken to is like, do we do a top down? Do we do a more democratic thing? Like how do we approach this? So how did you approach the idea of how the work was going to be actually done? Was that a conversation was that, you know, consultants were brought in, like, how did that go? No, it Lucia Harrison 8:50was definitely conversations with staff, a lot of conversations with staff, a lot more conversation with my management team. We initially did a survey with staff on their views of hybrid. And that’s where we started was, you know, how do you feel about the hybrid model? And based on those responses, we knew we could make it work and we knew we could accommodate those people who did not want to work from home, sort of that was we figured that part out the staff that must go to the library, they knew that that’s the nature of the funding, it is the reason we get that funding. So there, you know, there was no, there might be a little bit of jealousy, but they were very aware that they had to be present in the libraries. And then the four day workweek was a topic of conversation that we brought up with a number of staff and not surveyed in the same way but Got enough feedback that there was clearly an appetite for it. And quite honestly, people not believing we could make it work. Which is kind of funny because to be true, right. But that’s as we developed a schedule. And maybe that’s why it was so hard as we’ve got 40 staff, and we tried to make sure that every manager saw every one of their team during the week, and as much as possible, trying to get the team together, and that all the managers would be present in the office, so that we were all crossing paths. And so that scheduling was a little bit hard. And I think it’s the only time that by the time we had a schedule that said, Okay, we’re going to try this. It was at that point presented, this is a pilot, this is what we’re going to go with for three months, then we’re going to serve a you get your feedback if we need to tweak it, but it kind of reached the point of we cannot keep changing this because every piece that we changed, impacted other people that resulting in more changes. So that I would say, if you want to call that top down, it was kind of like, okay, here’s the schedule, we promise we’re going to revisit, but this is what we’re doing for three months. And it was after those three months that we did the survey that we had a 95% satisfaction rate with what we had implemented. Marco Campana 11:34So all of that pre work, obviously paid off, I assume, then after June, you’ve made some tweaks, but nothing major if people were that happy. Lucia Harrison 11:41Now. Now, we really have not, again, the occasional tweak, someone is taking a course and they need to change their schedule better. No major changes. No, it’s it’s working very well. Marco Campana 11:57That’s amazing. So all that pre work. So it’s all about that pre work. And you mentioned as well. Understanding your clients, right, some clients preferred virtual, you said and some clients prefer in person. So how did you figure that out? Because that’s the thing that again, a lot of agencies, I think it’s easy, just ask them. But, you know, what have you implemented to figure that out? And are you actually continuing to have that conversation with new clients with existing clients to just get a sense of what the right service mix is to meet their needs? Lucia Harrison 12:29It’s a combination of things in partnership with our immigration partnership, there was a survey done with clients, and we included COVID questions, you know, about, you know, preferences of virtual to face to face. And it was kind of interesting that many of the employment clients were quite happy doing virtual workshops, some of the face to face, but it was pretty clear that the more vulnerable the clients were, the less likely that they liked virtual service. So, you know, we have one person dedicated to working with refugee claimants and folks are coming in here, they don’t have the technology, they don’t have access, that person is in the office all four of their days, because we know that their clients just cannot use technology. Maybe they will in a few weeks, but not when they get here. And I think our settlement workers also, you know, they will offer would you like to meet face to face would you prefer to meet virtually, so there’s sort of an ongoing asking. And then we’ve also done hybrid on our workshops that we have it now set up as a virtual meeting room. So we can have a combination of people who prefer face to face as well as people joining by video. So they can they can choose. So it’s the initial feedback that we got this from the immigration partnership survey, but now it’s an ongoing, what’s your preference? Marco Campana 14:11Yeah, which I think is essential replicate, they may change over time, but when you’re talking about those workshops, so you’re delivering a workshop with participants in person as well as online at the same time, so the high the high flex model and and how’s that going? Because that’s a conversation that started that’s been starting in the sector that people feel is it that’s like the most sort of, I guess the highest complexity of service delivery because you can do a virtual workshop like a webinar or you can do an in person workshop. And it’s you know, you attend one or the other kind of thing, but this high flex approach is you know, choose however you want one day maybe you want to come in and on the next workshop, you want to be online, what kind of resourcing and training and facilitation and human resource Horses has it has it required to figure that out to do it? Well. Lucia Harrison 15:05I don’t think we’re there yet. To be honest, we’re doing it. Marco Campana 15:10It’s an experiment. Yeah. Lucia Harrison 15:12And it’s working, I know that there is other technology out there, that would make it a better experience. And I’m not the technical person. So I might have a harder time explaining there, there are ways we could make it better. Probably to the tune of five or $10,000, which what we wanted to do is try this out to see what kind of appetite there was for it, before we sort of make a major investment to make it better. So you know, we’re using a screen, we’re using a speaker, people can hear what is going on. But it’s not, it’s far from the high tech model that you’re talking about. And I think we will entertain it, if we continue to see an appetite of people wanting both. Marco Campana 16:05Yeah, I mean, I think that sounds like a really good way to experiment, because you’re not going to be sure about whether it works for your your staff or for your clients until you play with it a little bit. And then once you do, you can make a business case for for investing those 510 $1,000 for creating smart office rooms, right? Because zoom has these. I mean, there’s lots of solutions now, especially because of the pandemic of these sort of smart rooms where you can do these kinds of things. And so that’s interesting. No, it’s an approach or easy, it’s, again, you’re easing into it, and you’ll tweak it and decide what to do as you go. So this sort of constant innovation and experimentation, I think is something that I’m hearing you’re talking about that is more difficult. I find in our sector, especially from a funder perspective, you’re supposed to just this is the way we do it. And then we do it for five years, and then we’ll change it after after that. But but this is a much more kind of, I guess, agile approach to how you’re doing the work. And I wonder how staff are are adjusting to that or adapting? Lucia Harrison 17:04I would say pretty well, I mean, after two years of pandemic, I mean, I give credit to our sector, I certainly to our staff that, you know, we transitioned instantly, we, we were ready. We knew it was coming, we made sure everyone had laptops, everyone, we had Voice over IP phones, we had already started Cloud Storage. So it was pretty instant. But how innovative people who literally, you know, beyond turning on their computer had almost no technical know how at all how quickly they did adapt. And I’m finding that that now, making those adaptations is coming easier to people they know what’s possible. So, you know, by themselves with it help, but they make it work? Marco Campana 17:56And are you finding I mean, one of the other things people are struggling with is how do we choose the right tools? And then how do we ensure everybody is is a as a power user or an expert on those tools? So as an organization, have you kind of had that conversation where here’s the video conferencing software we’re going to use, here’s the digital messaging we’re going to use and here are the devices you need to be able to use proficiently. And here’s all the security and privacy and confidentiality protocols that go along with all of the different tools. Is that something that you’ve sort of? I mean, maybe standardized is the wrong word, but that you’ve all agreed we’re going to use these these types of tools in our service delivery. Lucia Harrison 18:33I would joke that our IT person gave us no choice. Unknown Speaker 18:39As they do, right. Lucia Harrison 18:43Our chief our person was pretty adamant right from the beginning that he wanted to go ahead with Office 365. And we had a lot of resistance. We had been a Google based organization. Marco Campana 18:56But that’s a big shift. Yeah. Okay. That’s interesting. Lucia Harrison 18:59Yeah. Yeah, it was. And if I was going to swear in this interview, it would be about that. I honestly still, like the Google environment better, I find it more friendly. But some of the things that, you know, office 365 could offer and quite honestly, it was a system he knew better and for him to provide us support. But we’ve been able to do everything in that environment. And, you know, in maintaining confidential records, we can get a guarantee that Microsoft is storing them in Canada, not, you know, across borders. Every time there was something we wanted to do, we could make it work in office 365. So that was kind of dictated to us nicely. And then that training has been provided as we’ve gone along, so our pre employment team would go through training on pay if you I’m going to do a workshop in this manner, this is how you would do it. I think we all need more. Right? I think, you know, I swear we could have weekly security updates, and still not keep up with the vast amount of scams and information stealing potential that’s out there. But so true. It’s kind of scary. But so to me that is ongoing. Marco Campana 20:27Yeah, I mean, it’s a learning curve that it will never end is how it feels like with the technology, because exactly the tools themselves will evolve, I was seeing, there’s a workshop this afternoon to learn about Microsoft 365, that one organization’s offering. And there’s some new tool called loop, which is this interesting social kind of networking, almost kind of thing. And I’d never heard of it before. So I went and looked at it on their website. So they’re evolving their product as well. And so there’s always things to learn about and on how can you use this internally? How can you use it with clients, for example? So it feels like it’s a never ending kind of loop? And so I guess, as part of your organizational professional development, is that something that is? I mean, I know that you’ve always done this kind of stuff. You’ve had staff and they’re learning, but is that become even more of a priority? In terms of stop learning and staying on top of these things? Lucia Harrison 21:19It is, but I’ve, a lot of it is now basically being done one on one, which in the end works better. You know, how one person understands compared to another one. That when staff are struggling, that one on one instruction tends to go farther than us pulling them all together and telling them and then forgetting three minutes after they finish their coffee? Marco Campana 21:47Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Because everyone learns differently and needs to be supported differently. So I guess, when you’re hiring now, are you looking for people to have certain technical skills? Or is that part of the onboarding process to get them up to speed on Microsoft 365 to get them up to speed on, on how you’re using these these tools, but also, again, the human side of it, right? The privacy, the confidentiality, the facilitation skills, the being engaging in a video session? Is that something you’re looking at, as a job expectation that more people will start to have those skills coming in? Or are you bringing people in and then training them on those things to ensure that you’ve got sort of an organizational baseline across your staff? Lucia Harrison 22:29I would say we certainly have a baseline that we’re looking for have, you know, experienced experience using Office 365? or similar? We’ve had a few occasions where I mean, if that’s missing, it’s just too steep of a learning curve. Other but to be fair, I have to say that when we’re doing hiring, it is rare now for people not to have those skills, they come with a certain amount of social media, certainly, you know, savvy with the computer to some extent, they’re coming with those skills, whereas we might not have expected that 10 years ago. Marco Campana 23:13Yeah, it’s it doesn’t feel like a long time. But it’s a lot of change in the last few years around the types of practical skills that people need to have. For sure. Awesome. And on the soft side of the skills, I wonder if that’s something that’s been part of the conversation with staff, because I’m hearing a lot from people in the sector that you know what I figured out the tools, I become a zoom power user, or a team’s power user or WhatsApp or whatever it is that they’ve decided as an organization to use. But they’re still struggling with facilitation and engage particularly around engagement, like people engaging people in their online sessions, or you know, those kinds of things. Is that a conversation you’ve been having as well. Lucia Harrison 23:53I think for the people that are actively engaged in group workshops and group activities, that facilitation skill is something that we’re looking for, when we’re hiring for staff, the, you know, people who might have been on if you’ve got people on staff who have been settlement workers for 20 years. There certainly was a learning curve in trying to do those kinds of sessions remotely, and certainly now have a real preference to providing them face to face. So I mean, there is a lag of information there. I’m not sure with some of the older stuff, if that’s going to change. And I’m not sure if it’s reasonable for me to ask for that to change at this point. We’ve got a you know, a broad grouping of staff that if one person is not comfortable, we’ve got other ones we’re more than comfortable to help and step in on some of that. Marco Campana 24:59So So that’s interesting as well then. So there’s, excuse me, there’s flexibility in that, in that overlap in that approach. So you’re not necessarily expecting everyone to have the same suite of digital skills, especially if they just either aren’t interested or don’t feel like they can build them. But other staff can can support them by being the facilitator in that session by stepping in and having that kind of cross team approach, I guess. Exactly. Now, that’s really interesting, because I know, again, people are struggling with, does everybody need to have the skill set? Do we create a digital team? Or do we kind of go with the flow of everybody’s skills and kind of have a flexible and fluid system like, which is sounds like it’s kind of what you’re describing? Is we you know, everyone has their strengths and contribute, where they where they need and want to, but you’re not going to make onerous expectations on people who, who may not have or want to develop some of those skills? Lucia Harrison 25:54In most cases, no, we don’t need to. Marco Campana 25:57That’s great. And again, I think that’s, that’s helpful and complex for other people to figure out, right? Because that’s, that requires a lot of oversight, a lot of trust, a lot of communication amongst the staff and a lot of collaboration. Lucia Harrison 26:11It really does. And I think, you know, one of the things that I had coming into this, in the implementing of all of this is starting from a point of trusting that my staff were working, and I think that’s a place for a lot of the people in the sector struggle. I can’t see you, are you really working? And I really took it to a level of okay, we have basic deliverables. You’re expected to see this many clients or do this many workshops, and really keeping myself out of the headspace of are you doing this between nine and five? Are you feeding your dog while you’re supposed to be working? I don’t care. Are you getting your job done. And I think that was really helpful in the implementation of this is that it was based on trust that people were doing what they needed to do. Marco Campana 27:06Yeah, and you outlined in your piece, again, on the ocassion newsletter, about what was really the sort of the three things that were important, which were clients are being served, which is, again, like you’re describing outputs and outcomes, but also staff wellbeing, and that you were also meeting your funded commitment. So the funded commitments and the clients being served are the are the ones that most people would be focusing on, which is where the whole surveillance mentality comes in. Right? I need to make sure this is happening. But staff wellbeing is something that really doesn’t get spoken about enough in our sector. And I wonder how that became part of the pillar, one of the pillars of your approach. Lucia Harrison 27:44Think it always has been, you know, it is pretty clear to me that for my staff, and especially, I would say, the frontline, frontline staff, and I talk about this during COVID, that I feel like our settlement workers took the brunt of trauma, our pre employment workers are others. But our frontline settlement workers, were dealing with people who were dealing with trauma during COVID, dealing with complex issues. But even before COVID, it’s sort of knowing that our settlement workers cannot do their work if if they are not well, if they if we if their mental health is not being taken care of. And as a CEO, I only have so much control over that. I mean, I can encourage people, you know, get counseling, you know, go out, go for walks, I mean, all of those standard things, but of trying to find a way to do what we could as an employer to help with that well being and I think that was even more important coming out of COVID. Marco Campana 28:54Absolutely. But and again, I think I mean, I completely agree, and that makes sense. But it’s, it still seems to be something that isn’t isn’t that your mentality, your your approach isn’t something that I’m seeing in a lot of places, people are fixated on the other two kinds of pillars, right at the expense sometimes of worker wellbeing. And even from our funders perspective, sometimes there’s not enough talking about supporting, it’s all about meeting the client meeting the funded deliverables, meeting the client outputs or outcomes, whatever is being defined in those in those moments. And x, everyone’s expected to work in an underpaid overworked environment, regardless of their mental health. Right as sort of the history of our sector. So it’s refreshing to hear that. And I think that’s important for people to hear that that’s a part of your one of your pillars, even if it’s just a natural pillar, because that’s how you’ve always done it, to have it there and make it formal, I also think sends a message to your staff, you’re part of our considerations. You’re part of this, we’re not just here to to, you know, run people through our service mill, but you know, you have to be part of by being okay with how we’re doing, Lucia Harrison 30:03no, and that survey that we did the comments of people going, you know, on the four day work, getting a four day weekend, every second week of, you know, by the time I hit Saturday noon, I’ve done all my errands, I’ve done everything I have to do. Now I get Saturday afternoon, all day, Sunday and all day Monday to be with my family take care of myself. You know, when people learned very quickly that, you know, you take a vacation of 10 days, you can actually only use up four of your vacation days, because the rest is in that long weekend. And they figured it out pretty quickly. And they they really noted it in their comments that how much they enjoyed that. Marco Campana 30:47Yeah, I mean, four days alone seems like a mini vacation every, every for every every two weeks. And just like again, with the stress of the job and being able to take that time to disconnect a little bit more. And like you said, get all this stuff out of the way. And so you can literally enjoy that weekend, whether it’s by yourself or with family, it just I can see how that would recharge people even on its own, regardless of the fact that they can, you know, piggyback that and use less vacation time, but get more vacation at the same time? It’s a Yeah, it seems like it’s well worth the 10 years of your life and the gray hair. Unknown Speaker 31:25In terms of your staff, at least. Lucia Harrison 31:27Yeah. Well, that’s great. And I love it. I mean, you know, I mean, as CEO, I sometimes work on the days, I’m not supposed to be working. But I’ve always done that. And it’s the nature of my work. But when I am determined that I need my break for days is fantastic. Marco Campana 31:43Yeah, that’s awesome. And how I’m curious, you’ve you’ve alluded to this a little bit in terms of coming back now, how clients have have reacted to your new approach. Obviously, you’re meeting the needs of the clients, because if they want virtual, they can get it if they want in person they can get it. There’s the high flex kind of approach. There’s there’s, it feels like there’s no wrong door for them. They can, as you mentioned, with your settlement counselors, they’ll have a conversation and say, Yeah, I want to do some of this by by texting or some of this in person. Have you been talking or surveying or figuring out in general, how this is working for your clients? Lucia Harrison 32:19We have a survey that’s just ready to go out that we are asking those questions. I know one issue that we’ve run into, and we’re trying to figure it out is if we have an urgent situation, and a person comes in on a Thursday of someone’s workweek, and it is urgent, needing multiple actions. And that staff person is now not coming back till Tuesday, because they’re in there long weekend, that can seem like a very long time. So we are looking at, you know how we can have the teams work together that if there is something really urgent, is there someone who can step in? If there’s a language barrier, you know, can we bring an interpreter in but another settlement worker could deal with it. So that is one issue that we’re dealing with. But the reality is that we’re busy. And, you know, we have one to two week wait time in some cases for our clients to get in to see settlement workers. So the issue is bigger than just the four day workweek. But that being said, we are we just dotted the I’s and cross the t’s on a survey that is going to our staff that is asking a lot of those questions. That’s great. Marco Campana 33:45I mean, that seems so important. But of all the things I guess it seems like if that’s the and that that sort of outlier scenario, if that’s the one that’s most concerning, other things are clearly flowing well. In general, with the way you’re you’re you’ve sort of laid out the service? Lucia Harrison 34:03I think so. I mean, it’s so there is that interruption for staff. And we also I mean, on the flip side of that if there is an issue. Sometimes communication for staff is an issue under this model. You know, if you’re into a four day weekend, and then you’re not crossing pads here, of still remembering that we could use all those tools we learned during COVID to connect to people. But that little bit of loss of connection is is something else that we’re dealing with since then, you know, things like having more frequent potlucks in the office that just brings everybody together to sort of reestablish those team feelings. Having the managers intentionally organize things off site with their entire team. But that disconnect is something we’re still trying to deal With as well, Marco Campana 35:01that’s useful. That’s important to know about because you want your team to still feel like they can come together and, and feel like a team, even if they’re passing each other week to week in some cases because of the different schedules. Right. So that’s, yeah, I could see that as being a challenge. But it sounds like you’re trying to figure out ways to kind of create that morale that team cohesion, and amongst 40 staff, the majority of whom are doing this hybrid work model. That’s going to take some, some some learning, I assume. Lucia Harrison 35:29Yep. Yeah, I think. And again, I mean, that’s what we’ve assumed all the way through this is that the we will tweak as we need to and as we go along. Marco Campana 35:41So in terms of the advice that you might give other sector leaders who are struggling with some of this, obviously, one of them is talk with your staff, involve them in this whole process, make it something that you envision that you’ll it’s you’re going to be working on, probably forever, you’ll be tweaking this, you’ll be piloting you’ll be trying new things, we’ll be learning as you go. What are some other pieces of advice that you might give, that we may not have spoken about from your experience of approaching this and leading an organization through the process? Drugs? Getting Speaker 3 36:19fair enough, though, self medication process? Lucia Harrison 36:24Yeah. I think you’ve already talked about it is, you know, when I, Lucia Harrison 36:31when we talk as a management team, it is a two pronged of keeping the center in the very center of what we’re doing. And not from a funders perspective, but what what do our clients need, and then what the staff need to be able to provide that. So if those are the two pillars, then taking care of staff and client needs are the two pillars that I feel like we need to focus on because our staff cannot do the work if they’re not being taken care of. And I for me, that is very important, because my ultimate is I want to serve the clients, they are the people who need our help who need our services. But to do that, we have to support our staff. So I feel like looking at it from those two lenses, some simultaneously, is what we really need to move these things forward. Marco Campana 37:31I love that I mean, all things flow from what you understand and know of your clients and what you understand and know that your staff need. I mean that that makes such logical sense that everything else as complex as it might go, or be, you’ll at least know what you need to be working on. Because you understand them so completely. I agree. Excellent. All right. I love it. There’s so much there’s so many kernels of knowledge I love I love this, this is such an eye and again, I think there’s people who are struggling with this and trying to figure out how do they move forward. In so there’s so many models and ideas out there to hear from a peer to hear from an organization that sort of figuring this out. And and as an as I would say further ahead than a lot of organizations in doing this is super useful. Is there anything I haven’t asked you about with you about your experience that you want to share or let people know to think about as they’re, as they’re working through all of this? Lucia Harrison 38:26Now off the top, but other than adding that while we implemented all of this, we also implemented a hotel desking model. So we did it all in one bang at the same time. So if you’re gonna do it, you might as well do it, right. Marco Campana 38:42Yeah. So shifting to Microsoft 365, hybrid work model, hybrid service model, new space, completely new way of laying out that office space and using it that’s, that’s a lot all at once, but, but it’s like the ripping the band aid off, I suppose, just get it done, and just Lucia Harrison 38:58just do this. And there was, again, we were lucky in that we had a whole new slate to work from, right and that not everyone has that. So it was really good. Nobody came back to an office that had pictures of their grandchildren sitting in the corner, no one, right. All of that was taken care of when we had to move everything out of the old building. And having made the decision that we would use a hotel desking model here. So you know, I don’t have an office, I book an office like everybody else. But I can appreciate that that’s harder for organizations when staff are coming back to an office after two years. And there’s Fifi, you know, picture of the dog in the corner, whatever. So I’m lucky in that way as well. But I do believe implementing all the changes at once was strategically. It was really good, difficult Because, yes, because I know I know people in my sector, I know people in my staff, there is going to be a certain amount of resistance. So let’s just do it all, and then deal with the issues as they come up. Awesome. Marco Campana 40:15Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share this. I think this is just incredibly valuable for others to hear your experience and to know about what’s possible. And what are some of the ways to go about doing it. So thank you so much for for taking the time to chat about it today. Lucia Harrison 40:30Thank you, Marco. And it’s been nice looking at you and chatting with you. Marco Campana 40:33I know it’s so great to connect again. Lucia Harrison 40:35We miss you here. Marco Campana 40:37I miss my early days. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you found this episode interesting and useful for you and your work. You can find more podcast episodes, wherever you listen to your podcasts are also on my site at marcopolis.org I appreciate you listening and if you have any tips, suggestions, ideas or want to be interviewed or know someone who wants to be interviewed, please drop me a line through my website, or [email protected] Thanks again.

Welcome to Episode 43 of the technology and human services podcast. In this episode, I’m speaking with Sampada Kukade from Skills for Change, a Toronto based settlement and employment organization that is no stranger to technology innovation. However, what you’ll find in this conversation, and what I find infinitely useful is that even organizations who are large and growing such as Skills for Change still need support in their digital transformation. And as part of their support, Skills for Change joined a pilot project called Charity Growth Academy run by CanadaHelps, which has been providing organizations, nonprofits, specifically, and charities with support around their digital transformation. So I wanted to talk to her about what that looked like how it was useful for Skills for Change, and what the impact has been, and how it’s something that could scale beyond the small group of pilot organizations? Because the reality is, we all know that this is something that all organizations need. Whether you’re in a big, small, growing new, older, legacy organizations, digital transformation is a challenge. And so one of the things we talked about was how do you shift internally to build this kind of a long term vision and infrastructure for digital transformation? What’s the impact been of getting this kind of support from outside in doing that, and baking that into the organization? What does that look like? And what has the Academy and what have these kinds of supports meant. What can Skills for Change do now that they might not have been able to do on their own? And then ultimately, what advice she has to share not just with the sector, but with the sector’s major funders around how they can support organizations who are at very different stages of the digital transformation journey. I think this is a really important and interesting conversation, and I hope you find it quite useful in your work. Some of the questions we discussed: What is the Charity Growth Academy and how did Skills for Change get involved? You’re one of the pilot project organizations for the Academy? What has the process been like? For example, the site indicates that they’re building an assessment that will lead to an action plan, then ongoing support. How has being part of the pilot project impacted your digital transformation journey? We know that digital transformation is not a “one and done” exercise. It also requires internal change management, new ways of doing and looking at things, and additional human resources. How have you shifted internally to build a long-term vision and infrastructure for your digital transformation journey? What has the Academy provided you with that you might not have gotten on your own? What advice and learning would you share with other Immigrant and Refugee-serving organizations who are are different stages of their digital transformation journey?What advice would you give to funders? Machine-Generated Transcript What follows is an AI-generated transcript of our conversation using Otter.ai. The transcript has been edited slightly edited (name error fixes). It may contain errors and odd sentence breaks and is not a substitute for listening to the audio. Marco Campana 0:00Welcome to Episode 43 of the technology and human services podcast. In this episode, I’m speaking with somebody who they have the skills for change, a Toronto based settlement and employment organization that is no stranger to technology innovation. However, what we’ll find in this conversation, and what I find infinitely useful is that even organizations who are large and growing play skills for changes still need support in their digital transformation. And as part of their support, skills for change joined a pilot project called Charity growth Academy run by CanadaHelps, which has been providing organizations nonprofit, specifically, and charities with support around their digital transformation. So I wanted to talk to her about what that looked like how it was useful for skills for change, and what the impact has been, and how it’s something like that could scale beyond the small group of pilot organizations? Because the reality is, we all know that this is something that all organizations need big, small, growing new, older, Legacy organizations. And so one of the things we talked about that was really important was, how do you shift internally to build this kind of a long term vision and infrastructure for digital transformation? What’s the impact been of getting this kind of support from outside in doing that, and baking that into the organization? What does that look like? And what has the academy and what has these, what have these kinds of supports meant that they could do that they might not have been able to do on their own? And then ultimately, what advice she has to share not just with the sector, but with the sectors, major funders around how they can support organizations who are at very different stages of the immigrant at the digital transformation journey, I think this is a really important and interesting conversation, and I hope you find it quite useful in your work. Marco Campana 1:43Welcome to the technology and human services podcast, Sampada, thank you so much for joining me, why don’t we start by maybe introducing yourself and tell me a bit about your work at skills for change? Sampada Kukade 1:53Yeah, thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be here today and talk about this important topic. My name is Sampada Kukade today, and I’m the Vice President of Corporate Communications, and stakeholder engagement at skills for change been here for just over eight years. And it’s been a fantastic journey. For me. My portfolio includes many different facets, including the program marketing of all of our 25 Plus programs, across the agency, all of our communications and communication channels. In addition to that, a huge part of my responsibility is around stakeholder engagement, which really is working with employer partners and corporate partners to see the value in the clients that we serve, which are newcomer clients, of course, and allow employers to have access to a global talent, talent pool. So that’s, that’s what I do. And yeah, really excited to talk about the charity growth Academy and digital transformation today. Marco Campana 2:57excellent segue. No, I mean, skills for change has been around for quite a long time, but also has been a tech innovator in the past. I know. I mean, I’ve been in the sector for a while. So I know that you were one of the first organizations to sort of start doing some online community with internationally educated professionals and things like that many, many years ago, very, very ahead of the times kind of experimenting. So but we know, especially in the last three years, that digital transformation, and in our sector, this sort of shift to hybrid services, is it’s kind of an inevitability. So So yeah, you mentioned the charity growth Academy. So I wonder, that’s really why we kind of came together, because I saw that your organization was part of that. And I thought, great. This is a good example of one program that is focused on helping nonprofits and charities to, to become digitally transformed and digitally literate. So can you tell me a little bit about what the charity growth Academy is and how you got involved? Sampada Kukade 3:48Yeah, absolutely. So if I can just take a step back, and as you mentioned, yeah, skills for change has, you know, kind of been one organization that has offered, you know, the online supports and things like that. But it really wasn’t until 2020. Of course, everybody had to shift immediately. And it was definitely, you know, a challenge for us from the perspective of, at that time, only offering pretty much online, sorry, in person courses, with some supports online through, you know, various tools, but really shifting that focus to full virtual delivery. And so what we kind of saw and identified, as you know, just the change management process, and how quick everyone had to adapt, which was fantastic. Everyone, of course, did that. But really, how do we now become more prepared for any of those situations in the future, but just also just the evolving world and how digitally connected and digitally, you know, we’re so reliant on digital technology, so to ensure that we’re continuously ahead of the game and so, last year, I had content At Shari Austin, who is sits on a board with our CEO, cerana, Sandy. And she had connected us with CanadaHelps, who then discuss this new pilot project called Charity growth Academy, which is a partnership with MasterCard Chang works and Canada helps to help nonprofit organizations to become more digitally transformative, and really to support that whole process. And so after having some conversations with CanadaHelps, initially, they had wanted to really focus on really small organizations and skills for changes. Now, you know, kind of, we’re at the 9 million mark. So we’re getting to that bigger stage. And so but they did see a lot of value in having an organization like skills for change, participate, from the perspective that you are in this growth stage, you know, we’re growing quite big, we’ve expanded in terms of our program delivery and the number of programs that we have. And so how are we keeping up digitally and with our digital transformation, and it’s been a challenge that’s calls for change. And so we really, you know, identified that, and that was really the precursor to us getting involved with this program. And this particular program, what it was, was brought together a group of nonprofit organizations that could meet with, you know, CanadaHelps, and a few consultants that they had that specialized in digital transformation. And we work together to really understand what does that mean, you know, it’s not just about one aspect of like, do we are we on a CRM or like, what system do we use? But really, it’s that broader picture of like, how were we you know, showcasing our impact? How is our data managed across our organization? Even everything from how are our fundraising efforts? How can we strengthen our fundraising efforts through tools and technology? So we had a bunch of workshops, and then what that led to was a full analysis of, you know, where we are in certain points of our digital transformation. And from that, we were given a huge document with like, number of recommendations on how to get started on certain things. So for example, and this is just one kind of example is like, you know, we’re off if we’re off of the Google Suite, then how does you know, where are we in terms of, you know, streamlining processes with Google Drive. So it gave recommendations as kind of like granular as that and and that was really useful. Yeah, for us to kind of move forward and say, Okay, what do we what are we able to implement? Marco Campana 7:53It’s interesting, because you mentioned that they had originally focused on small organizations. But we know and we’ve certainly learned over the last few years that nobody is sort of in digital fully digitally mature in the nonprofit sector. I mean, very few, I would say some probably are but but, but it’s great that they were able to see the potential that that even a larger organization could benefit from something like this. So I was among the things that they worked on for you. You mentioned sort of fundraising and internal systems. So they also did they also look at your, your sort of front facing client service technologies and things like that, like how you’re, how you’re incorporating those into your service delivery? Sampada Kukade 8:31Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s the critical piece is that how do we, what it got us to start thinking about is that of course, with 25 different programs, were funded by multiple funders, what are the funders asking for insurance and reporting? How are we interfacing with the client as they first enter our organization to really understand what program is suited for them. And so that’s what got us really starting to think about streamlining those processes, and strengthening them so that the technology can do a lot of the work that we’re currently doing in terms of assessing and understanding where our clients, you know, should be situated in terms of the right program for them. So it definitely did help support that. And the client journey. Incredibly, Marco Campana 9:20did it look at things like competencies amongst your staff in terms of what their digital strengths and needs might be in terms of kind of almost creating a baseline across the organization? Sampada Kukade 9:32Yeah, I think what it did and where we’re kind of at right now, because one of the things that I think a lot of the organizations identified and it’s just natural that you would around the change management process, right. So it’s one thing about adopting technologies and you know, all of that, but it’s another thing around the change management. So what it allowed us to do is exactly that. At the front forefront. It allowed us to look at the leadership team and see who has Is the capabilities, the understanding and maybe some background to really support this project? And then you know, really look at those that are more kind of technologically savvy and are able to, you know, we have some champions just say in our organization that tend to do the trainings and things like that. So, really looking at okay, who can we kind of continue to engage as the champions as we go through this transformation? Marco Campana 10:27Yeah, I mean, that’s a really interesting, because digital transformation we know is not like a one and done exercise and change management, you’ve mentioned it a few times is, it’s a huge journey to be on. So I guess the first question I’m curious about you were already on that journey, obviously, in some ways already. And in other ways, no choice because of the pandemic, but but certainly on the pathway. What what did what did a process or a program like this bring in terms of how it impacted? Your journey? did? Did it? You know, were you able to move more quickly? Did you feel more comfortable was it you know, if you felt like you were treading water less through the process, Sampada Kukade 11:04I mean, a little, right, because, you know, when you get the document, you’re like, oh, my gosh, like, you know, there’s so much to do, and you want to get it all done. And of course, we know that and like you said, whether you’re a small organization, or a large one in the nonprofit sector, or charitable sector, rarely do we get funds to actually, you know, go towards digital transformation, there are, you know, like more unique grants that are have come up over the last, you know, little while that are really tailored to that digital transformation, which is fantastic. But it does become a challenge, because you don’t have the internal capacity. And as it is, you know, by seeing my title, you can see I own three departments, you know, I’m strapped, right and stretched already. Yeah, and I’m the lead for this digital transformation project. But what it allowed us to do is a through CanadaHelps, and MasterCard change works. And they it didn’t just stop, as you said, like, it doesn’t stop, you know, at that point. And the recommendations was actually this the launch point to so much more, both internally, as well as with the supports we have been getting through CanadaHelps and MasterCard. And so you know, MasterCard, giving us volunteers, to work with us on a continual basis based on our needs. And then CanadaHelps, continuing to give us workshops and building the, you know, the knowledge and expertise and best practices of what the organization’s in the first pilot have been have been doing. But what it allowed us to do internally is, we’ve formed a team of about four of us that we just kind of accidentally got into technology, you know, one of my staff, one of my colleagues, who is just a whiz at Salesforce, and another one who just had a passion for Google Suite. So it brought us together to just talk about at least have the discussion, sit down and have the discussion and reinforced by our CEO who has the vision of digital transformation. So I think that’s really critical in that journey is that even if you don’t have the funds earmarked, or you know, you don’t have the capacity, if the vision is there for that digital transformation from the top, then you know, it’s going to it’s going to, we’re going to figure out a way to do it. And so it started those conversations. And now what it’s done is we’re about eight months later, we’ve hired a Chief Chief Strategy operations. And as in growth officer, who is now going to own our digital transformation and build out, you know, we’ve got this vision now of building out that department and really moving the dial on some of these areas. And that’s what it’s really done is and we’ve been really lucky skills for changes going through a strategic strategic planning refresh right now, our previous strategic plan was from 2018 to 2023. So as we’re going through that process, it also kept the digital transformation top of mind as part of that strategic plan. So everything that we talk about in our strategic planning process really embeds that digital mindset in terms of that, that’s something that we’re going to need to embed as we you know, move forward in our new strategic plan. Marco Campana 14:25There’s so much I feel like I want to unpack there something specific because there’s, there’s a lot of really important kind of threads that we are discussing. And one of them is I want to I want to talk about because you came up in another conversation with them with Agnes Thomas, who’s the IDI of Catholic cross cultural services. And she echoed some of what you said, which is there are people who have individuals in the organization who have certain interests and certain strengths and so bringing them together to create sort of committees but also building off of their strengths and giving them that space. And it kind of it kind of goes into that that notion of well are people are some people Jobs kind of changing and shifting. So for those people who so for that, first, that first question that you talked about these, you know, your staff who did the Google Drive expert and someone else who had an interest in something else, does that become kind of part of their permanent position now that they’re, they’re also working in those areas. Sampada Kukade 15:18So not necessarily, because, you know, again, you know, my colleague who has that interest in Salesforce, she has a very specific job, She’s the manager of marketing and employer engagement. But what it allows us to do on the senior leadership level on the EN, is to really embed those pieces in the professional development. And I think that’s really important, because if you have a passion for something, you know, we can still tie it back to the work that they’re doing. And so, with this particular individuals portfolio, part of it is working to get our employment, you know, our clients employed. And so, you know, we need that data, and how do we use that data, we need to really expand the use and use Salesforce more meaningfully. So while there, there’s your connection, so it’s really about creating those connections in terms of you know, you still you have this, you know, portfolio you have to manage, but how can you embed those pieces into those portfolios? Marco Campana 16:22It’s interesting, so becoming a deeper or a power user of the tools that they might have already been using, but didn’t necessarily have the capacity before to be as as to use it as deeply, I guess. Sampada Kukade 16:33Yeah. And I think, again, one thing that I was saying we had a session with some of the folks from the pilot a couple of weeks ago, and one of the things that I was saying was around, when you tie it back to your strategic plan, then you can, you know, embed that into those, those individuals portfolios, right, because now it’s about, you know, we’re really wanting to ensure we have a solid data, it’s about data gathering, every everybody is everybody is talking about data data. And so, yeah, so we tie that back to this is the direction we want to go, this is the vision we see for it, and then that’s going to be embedded into the portfolio. But then you get to utilize those tools that you’re so passionate about. Marco Campana 17:25Yeah, that’s another really important point that again, this sort of one and done the strategic is that this is this is not just something that kind of happens over here, but it’s directly tied into your strategic plan. It’s part of how you’re going to be doing business moving forward. I imagine it’s, it impacts sort of the kinds of skills you might look for in in new hires, or how you onboard them differently in the training that you give them and things like that. So, so So yeah, I mean, I’m curious about how it sounds like it has had an impact in terms of impacting your long term vision and the infrastructure, I mean, the hiring of a person in that position, that’s another thing we’ve seen in some of the research is new and emerging roles are somewhat inevitable, to be able to do that, because like you said, you’re already stretched, you know, this was basically the fourth project that you would have been sort of, you know, working on in your portfolio. So to having a staff person come on to be that transformation, that digital operations person, I assume is something that has come out of this process. Sampada Kukade 18:24Yeah, absolutely. And again, you know, we can’t really create a rosy picture of it just being so smooth sailing, and, you know, we’re able to implement and everything. It’s exactly that right. Charities are, you know, resource strapped all the time. And, you know, there are, you know, when we have 25 programs, there’s just so much going on every day. And then what ends up happening is you have this like, you know, session, we had this working session, and everybody was ALL Yay, let’s get this moving. And then five weeks go by and you’re like, oh, my gosh, we need to meet again. And, you know, now things are getting busy. And it’s just your day to day routine. And it just, you know, gets in the way of like, these bigger conversations that we need to keep at the forefront. But I think what, what, with this project, because of the ongoing support that enabled us to continuously keep it top of mind, so even if we can’t move the dial on a particular area, at least it’s still continuously top of mine. So I would say like, even if, worst case scenario, we weren’t able to do anything about this, any of our digital transformation for the next two years. It’s continuously embedded into conversations now. Marco Campana 19:43And are those external resources those have come through the charity growth Academy pilot, so those are, I guess, are they pro bono consultants, or how does that work? Sampada Kukade 19:52Yeah. So the, the recommendations that we got, a lot of them are just, we can and kind of figure out how to like, obviously, the organization would have to figure out how to implement. But through the volunteers that MasterCard provides, they, you know, really are very keen on meeting with us on a regular basis to talk about, Okay, what’s next? What can we help you with? What can we help you and then so they’re able to build out processes or give us ideas in terms of how to, you know, better our CRM system, you know, how to better utilize it. So it’s around that, but a lot of it is it can actually be embedded into the organization. So if there were specific things that we talked about integration of tools, for example, between Salesforce and another, and another tool, that’s something that we can likely do internally with just some of the, you know, the, because the recommendations didn’t only include like us to do this, like it’s it goes far beyond this is how you would do it. These are the resources you could utilize for it. And then there’s ongoing courses as well, that they provide us with both internally where we can meet as a group, but also online courses that they recommend us to take as well. Marco Campana 21:12Oh, interesting. I mean, it sounds like there’s sort of, you know, it’s almost like a wraparound services we would call it in the system is that you’ve got these these pro bono these volunteers support. But you also have, and you have the learning pathways. But it sounds like you also have regular meetings with with other recipients or other members of the academy. And I wonder if how impact and it sounds like you’ve mentioned what you’ve been able to share? Has it been valuable to hear other people’s stories and learn from them? Absolutely. Sampada Kukade 21:36Yeah, we just had a session a couple of weeks ago, where we talked about, you know, a quick way and we each organization gave a presentation on their quick win. And it was really amazing to hear. Yeah, and I think that there are a lot of takeaways, I think there are some organizations that completely revamped their websites, that, you know, and then also to hear some of the challenges that they faced and and what we faced and be able to share that. So yeah, it’s an ongoing, I feel like there’s, you know, always a learning, there’s always something you can take and bring at the same time. Marco Campana 22:16Yeah, I mean, it sounds it sounds like it’s unnecessary level of different kinds of supports, from the assessment to providing you with recommendations, but also then helping you work through those providing you with professional development opportunities, and that community of practice, I guess, as a pilot, Sampada Kukade 22:31because I think, yeah, I think overall, you know, eventually, they’re gonna go on to the next pilot, you know, the next group, they’re going to offer this hopefully to another group of individuals. But what it allows, like you said, it allows us to create the community. And so I would assume that a number of us who are part of the first pilot would want to continue to connect, you know, after our pilot is officially done, and just keep those conversations going. Marco Campana 23:00Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. And then those new that next cohort could join the community. And it just kind of grows and builds and, and you develop your expertise and sharing. It’s interesting, because it sounds like a really impactful and really well designed approach to helping Nonprofits and Charities on their digital transformation. But I always like to look at how can it scale? Right. So CanadaHelps and MasterCard, are creating, I would say, and we see a lot of experimentation in different different nonprofit sectors, including ours with different ideas that are being tried out. And I’m always looking for the well, what’s the one that are? What are the number of them because there’s gonna be different approaches to different parts of the journey. If something sticks and if something makes sense, how can we make it scale? I mean, so I guess the question is, how do we what advice would we give to an IRCC or a provincial funder to say, you know, this pilot project is like the approach that you should invest in to help the organizations that you’re that you’re providing grants or contribution agreements to in order to move forward effectively? Sampada Kukade 24:05Yeah, I think I think it’s, it’s opportunities like this or you know, back in the fall, we got invited to do a panel at the AFP conference, the sociation of Fundraising Professionals conference, where it was myself CanadaHelps, Liz Bryce, and then Jen Sloan, who runs the MasterCard change works and so the three of us coming together and having that conversation, so I think it’s around the note knowledge mobilization, and really having the organization’s having, you know, folks like Canada helps the Canadian Center for Digital Trends, resiliency, resilience. You know, it’s it’s organizations like that really, just continuing to mobilize in the community. Keep it top of mind having conversations like this, you know, you Use talking to me, we’re going to share it out and have our organization share it and just have people really, really keep it top of mind, in terms of this is this is definitely a need that we have to embed into future projects, as you said, you know, IRCC is going to have a call next year again. So really ensuring that we having this voice around how important and critical it is for them to include, you know, in parts of their funding proposals and calls as we move forward. Marco Campana 25:35Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it feels inevitable. But it also feels like a bit of a black hole at this point, because we’re not sure where their priorities are. So I feel like projects like this and your experiences. And so I’m so grateful that you’re sharing are what funders need to hear about what’s working, and what they could do to scale it up. Because if you can, I mean, you know, a MasterCard Foundation can’t nearly go as wide in terms of the nation or as deeply in terms of the different kinds of organizations as the numbers of organizations that government can. So I’m hoping that, you know, foundations like these, you know, even large foundations like the Trillium Foundation who are funding, or even this huge pot of money, that’s $400 million, that’s going for community efforts in response to COVID, which will certainly include digital transformation projects. Yeah. And we need to feed that sort of, as you say, we need to mobilize that knowledge up to to the levels that can actually scale it in a meaningful way. Sampada Kukade 26:32Yeah, I agree. And I’m hopeful that also, you know, due to the pandemic, it, you know, I’m hopeful that a lot of funders really see that it has to happen, right? Like we kind of stumbled upon it as a result of the pandemic. And so I really think that, you know, funders going forward are going to think more innovatively and creatively and, and also, just, in general, how to best serve our clients. So because for example, you know, it’s one thing about skills for changes digital transformation. And it’s another when we talk about our clients access and digital equity, which has now become Marco Campana 27:14absolutely, Sampada Kukade 27:17yeah, a huge, you know, topic, we just did a Spotlight Series, which is, you know, an event we have once a month, where we call in experts, and we did something around digital transformation and equity. And it’s about that, it’s about the fact that as a result of going to the pandemic, you either had, we either had clients who were benefiting from that, because, you know, they, they had familial responsibilities and other things, you know, their kids were home. So they had no choice, they had to go virtual. And so that helped and supported a lot of our clients. But on the flip side, it was a challenge for a lot of our clients who had don’t have access to digital technologies, who are working off of, you know, one tablet, or one phone, in their entire household. So we did have clients and client examples, like specific client examples where, you know, client would talk to one of our counselors and say, I can’t apply for a job because my kid has to use our one device that we have, from nine to three and during school. And so it limits my time to now try to find a job, Career Centers were all closed, everything was all closed. So it’s about, you know, meeting the middle of that, that gap where, now that we’re back in the office, I’m in the office today, and we’re offering a suite of virtual and in person services. So it’s really being able to support and offer that flexibility, acknowledging that our clients have vast needs, and really being able to support that because at the end of the day, our job is to the best integration of newcomers to Canada. It’s about sustainable employment, it’s about furthering the sustainable development goals on the more blunt, broader global scale. You can’t do that. If you’re not innovating. You can’t do that. If you don’t change with what the you know, the landscape is looking like. Marco Campana 29:14Yeah, no, thank you so much for bringing the digital equity piece from the client perspective, because it is, is such an important part of the continuum, if we’re digitizing if we’re building hybrid. Now, hybrid allows for in person, which is great, but what about people who maybe they would like to go digital, but they don’t have the device, the internet, fast internet, or the digital literacies? Or the fluency sufficient to do that, but they would like to do that. So I feel like it’s a question of whose responsibility is it as we and I’m thinking beyond our sector, right? We have digital government, expanding employment, digital banking, I mean, every facet of our lives has increasingly digital components. So whose responsibility is it to help those folks meet that meet that goal and and I know as service providers, that’s a big big weights in some ways, Sampada Kukade 30:02it’s a huge way. And I just what I wish and hope is that when you know, policy makers, governments and corporate are meeting that they really take into account what the service providers experiences on the ground with our clients. Because oftentimes, I do find that those conversations happen outside of the service provider. But I think, as you mentioned, like who’s responsible, we’re all responsible, but we all have to have that conversation to look at it from various perspectives. So I don’t think you’re gonna get that client perspective, in terms of, you know, what that client might be facing, for example, unrelated to our organization, but even if the client is going for an employment opportunity lives in, you know, a low income neighborhood where the access to transportation is far less, then you got to think about those things is that person going to be able to take the transit, they need to get to that job? And so how is that employer going to then create a more flexible environment for that person so that they can thrive and their, you know, their work, and they can fulfill that, you know, passion and goal working, while supporting that, that person’s needs so that they don’t have to turn down the job? Or they’re not able to? You know, it take that opportunity? Marco Campana 31:26Right? Yeah, no, that’s so important. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it is such a continuum of actors that have to kind of get together and have this conversation and agree, and then scale up the solutions that work. It’s, it feels really complex, but it also feels inevitable. Sampada Kukade 31:41Yeah, we Marco Campana 31:42have to do this work. Right. Sampada Kukade 31:44Yeah, definitely, we have to do it. And, you know, especially with, as we know, in terms of the labor market shortages that we’re facing right now, plus, you know, the 1.5 million new immigrants that are expected, you know, it’s these are the challenges that we foresee happening, right, it’s like we, you know, you can have the funding available for skills, development programs, and all of these kinds of things. But it’s really about looking at it more holistically, as you said, and providing those wraparound supports to ensure that the client, you know, any, any person that comes any person can, you know, fulfill their passion and their dream and get meaningfully employed, and, you know, further their education or whatever they want to do, but, you know, allowing that space to, you know, for those individuals, Marco Campana 32:36for sure. I mean, in some ways, I It feels like a conversation. That’s, that that is isn’t a part of what settlement organizations might be working on. But as you described earlier, if if, if the goal is full integration of newcomers, then it becomes part of of not just the responsibility, but the the focal point in the efforts for settlement organizations to actually work on this digital equity and digital inclusion question. Sampada Kukade 33:02Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, and then bringing it back to the organization and the organization’s digital transformation again, you know, if we’re expecting this large group of individuals coming in, it’s like, how are we going to service them best, and as quickly as possible, you know, many of them are going to need the full settlement supports, but many of them are going to come with the global experience that they have that are there ready to work? And so how do we, how do we ensure that we’re as quickly as possible, you know, getting them to live their best life in Canada, essentially, that’s the, that’s the goal is that, you know, allow them the opportunity to, you know, create community create, you know, space for them to, you know, support their family, and all that kind of stuff. So, it’s really about that we can’t do that we can’t do that work as effectively until we’re able to, you know, move a dial on our digital transformation. And that’s going to require the support of every single player in the field, Marco Campana 34:08for sure. And I mean, it raises an interesting question about the self serve kind of newcomer as you’re describing highly motivated, highly skilled, excellent English. What kind of self serve? You know, what, what can technology do to help you serve them? 24/7 Whether it’s chatbots AI tools, I mean, we just this is manic explosion of the conversation of the day. Yes. And what I what I find interesting is people are sharing Well, there’s all these other interesting tools as well. So there’s this incredible explosion of emerging technology that we need to figure out how to use responsibly first of all, which is a challenge in our sector, because, you know, it’s not something we look at, but we but but it is on the agenda. So I’m curious if you’re having that conversation about well, how can we serve people while we’re sleeping? Right, the idea of that 24/7 concierge in some way. Sampada Kukade 34:58Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think You know, the AI conversation like, we’re just starting to have that as well, you know, as you said, chat GTP GPT has exploded, and it’s like, you know, a lot of technologically savvy folks are just going to be able to, you know, create their resumes on on AI tools like that. So it’s really about for us for skills for change, and where our growth really has been over the last couple of years is around the wraparound supports. And I think that’s where, you know, in terms of what you’re seeing around, like, you know, those red job ready clients, or those individuals who come new into the country that are just ready to go, is really about providing those wraparound supports, at the end of the day, no one can replace mentorship, no one can replace mental health services, right? All of those pieces that we don’t often, you know, you think that a person is ready for employment. But if they are coming from as a refugee from a conflict area, we’re not taking into account some of the trauma that they could be experiencing. And so even though they may have a global expertise in, you know, technology, or data analytics, or whatever it is, and they’re able to get a job the next day, it’s around, you know, how are they part of that sustainability of that job is going to be ensuring that we support them in their family life, and anything that they may be dealing with as a result of a new immigrant, whether it’s isolation, or it’s, you know, again, somebody’s coming from a war torn country where they’re dealing with that trauma that goes hand in hand. So that’s where I see, you know, us changing with the times, it’s about, you know, if the technologies can take care of certain things, where are we going to provide those wraparound supports that you know, that that will then allow them to be their best selves? Marco Campana 36:53I love that I think that’s such an important perspective to see that yes, we can we can, we can use technology as a tool to help take the load off of some of our work. And also for those who, you know, for those who are self serve, if you will, but there’s still such a meaningful and important role that agencies can play. And perhaps you can even play more of that role with those kinds of clients who are able to kind of work on their own through those settlement processes. But you can provide those other kinds of support for them that they that they aren’t certainly not going to get from technology at this point. Sampada Kukade 37:22Yeah, exactly. Yeah, maybe one day. Yeah, but but Marco Campana 37:25I think it’s a really good perspective on on how you’re evaluating where the tools can fit, and where where you are on that continuum, and then communicating that to someone to say, Yeah, you know, maybe you’ll have a job tomorrow, in part because of our AI tool, or our, you know, job search and resume Creator tool. But don’t forget, you may have other questions. You know, maybe you’re going through some issues, maybe, you know, as you’re, as you’re working in that job, things might come up triggers or mental health issues, we’re here, you know, and making sure they understand. Yeah, so access. Sampada Kukade 37:56Exactly. And we have a new project that we’re launching, actually, that was just announced this week, we got a million dollars from TD revenue. So I congratulate very exciting, and that’s a climate change project. And, to your point, you know, we’re we have tools, as part of this project, we’re going to have a youth led website and newsletters and a lot of online engagement. But at the end of the day, in terms of creating that sustainable change in your community, specifically low income areas that have are more exposed to the dangers of climate action and climate change, you still have to plant trees, right, like that human touch that human involvement is, it still has to be there, you still have to advocate, you still have to advocate for your communities, you have to part of the project is really going to be having the community understand how they can impact climate change in their areas. And so that still has to happen in person, you still need an organization like skills for change to facilitate those conversations facilitate those activities and initiatives. Marco Campana 39:01Absolutely. And I mean, I feel like a lot of what you’re referring to, as well as the the the need and the the essential. Sorry, the essential need to fully understand the people and communities that you’re serving. So that you know when a right an intervention makes sense with technology versus in person and you understand the whole person so that even though that intervention work, and we know employment is one of the key factors leading to settlement. But then there’s below the iceberg, all that stuff that you were talking about earlier. So understanding them, I assume you’re you’ve probably been doing that. But you may be deepening that effort to try to sort of really understand the people you’re serving, as well as the people you’re not serving, right. We know there are people who don’t access services. And once again, technology provides an opportunity to reach them. Sampada Kukade 39:45Yes, yeah, definitely. And I think that’s one thing around the pandemic that a lot of organizations I’m sure similar to skills for change really found is that it did allow us to expand our reach in terms of you know, who we’re able to serve and And, you know, a wider audience from that perspective. So I think that that, you know, can never be a bad thing, right? Because if we can serve somebody, even outside of the Greater Toronto area that needs supports, where there may be less supports available or something of that nature than our job is still done. Marco Campana 40:20Absolutely. He’s still Yeah, why not? Right? I mean, if it if you can reach someone who can’t be reached, I talked to a number of francophone organizations during the pandemic, and one of the things they talked about was being able to reach into exactly as you describe communities that that had a francophone presence, but not large enough to fund service providers. So they could now reach those people and in ways they never had before or didn’t think they could before. And it’s transformative for some of those folks who are now getting service in their language, as we know is so important and newcomer for newcomers and settlements. So it was really interesting to hear, and to hear UFO that here. So this is this has been such a great share. Thank you so much. I’m curious if there’s any advice that you would share with other immigrant and refugee serving organizations based on your experience, who maybe at very different stages of this of the digital transformation journey? And I mean, I can tease out a number of lessons from everything, you’ve talked about it, but if there are a few sort of points that come top of mind for you, I’m curious. Sampada Kukade 41:13Yeah, absolutely, I would say that from the senior management level, just to just start having those conversations and really understand your role in it in terms of your organization’s digital transformation. And that, if you’re not keeping it front of mind that you know that that’s the example you need to set in order for the organization to follow. So I would definitely recommend senior leaders really getting a better understanding, really looking at sources like the Canadian Center, as a potential resource, reading up on it, listening to everything, you know, podcasts and things like that, to really understand it. And then just in general, for organizations, I would say, it know that it’s going to be an ongoing journey, this is never gonna end. It’s just about what are even some of those small things, those small wins that we can make in order to move the dial. Because once you see the impact of that small win, and how you’re able to move the dial, it will allow you to kind of, you know, feel feel excited and know that it’s there’s the possibility that this could happen. I would also say to any organization just continuously look out externally to see what grants are available in the space, because that was one thing we talked about a couple of weeks ago in our cohort is, you know, some folks know about them, and some folks don’t. So really just get an understanding of when those funding opportunities, try to be abreast of all of that get on newsletters and everything you can, because there are always opportunities that are coming up and more so nowadays, around that digital technology and digital transformation space. So really keep abreast of that so that you can apply and actually have some, you know, funds to be able to do that and make those you know, changes. Marco Campana 43:07No, that’s great. It reminds me of sorry, I have a final question, which is that community of practice with those other organizations seems really valuable. Yeah. And I’m curious if you’re seeing any emergence of that in our sector, in the immigrant refugee serving sector, where we’re having these conversations with each other in a meaningful way, and if you’re part of that, Sampada Kukade 43:24yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think just, you know, due to employment transformation, and all of those big pieces that have been, you know, already implemented and are being implemented in in Toronto soon, I think those conversations are just naturally happening, I think groups are coming together and really talking about it and, and seeing how we can coordinate services better and how we can learn from each other. So I think that again, in terms of best practices for other organizations, you know, get yourself involved in all of those sector groups, right? All of those thought leader groups, really get yourself involved in them become a member of those groups, because that’s your opportunity to really exchange those ideas. And, you know, talk about how we can serve the community more holistically. And and have kind of similar messaging, you know, you know, whether it’s advocacy through an organization like O’Casey or whatever, having that consistent voice on these issues, because we know that we’re, you know, no matter how we deliver the service, at the end of the day, the challenges that we’re facing with newcomers are all the same. And so what we want to advocate for, you know, whether it’s digital equity or technologies and things like that, that’s not going to change across the board. So those are the conversations that we could be can, you know, ensure we have a common voice for? Yeah, that Marco Campana 44:51makes sense. Yeah, common voice a common position that makes a lot of sense. Is there anything I haven’t asked you about that you want to share or advice you’d like to leave with? Sampada Kukade 44:59Oh, I think I think, yeah, we Marco Campana 45:02covered a lot. Sampada Kukade 45:03We did cover a lot. And I know when it comes to like digital equity and all of those things we could probably have like, even, you know, a second podcast absolutely around that. So, no, I just appreciate that you also, you know, have this vehicle that you’re using to really talk about these issues and bring it to the forefront. It is, again, as I said, podcasts, and you know, that knowledge mobilization, that’s all part of it in terms of just getting the word out and how critical this piece of work is in ensuring the growth and sustainability of organizations, but also to be able to best serve our clients. So I really appreciate that you asked me to come today and speak on this. Marco Campana 45:48Well, and I really appreciate you joining me. So yeah, gratitude fest. But thank you so much for taking the time to come and share your experience. There’s so much value and insight in an experience in what you’ve been doing that I think it’d be great for people to hear about it. And for again, funders who might listen to this, to hear what needs to scale up what what is working on the ground, that they could actually help continue to support widely and deeply in the sector. So exactly very much for your time. I appreciate it. Sampada Kukade 46:14Thank you so much. Marco Campana 46:16Thanks so much for listening. I hope you found this episode interesting and useful for you and your work. You can find more podcast episodes, wherever you listen to your podcasts are also on my [email protected] I appreciate you listening and if you have any tips, suggestions, ideas or want to be interviewed or know someone who wants to be interviewed, please drop me a line through my website, or [email protected] Thanks again