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And with most episodes under five minutes long, staying informed has never been easier. Listen and subscribe to Thoughts on the Market, wherever you get your podcasts. There's a lot of remiss around Jim, and today he addresses some of them for good. My dad, he was out of my life from fairly young.
He was arrested. He was in prison for a while. He was definitely sociopathic. I wonder what man I would be if he had stuck around.
Oh, I've lost counting that times I've been called a cheater. Me and Tani broke up just over two years ago. Me and Sarah got together, as far as the world is concerned, a few months later. But I'll do that wasn't it, because the world only found out me and Tani broke up when we decided to tell them.
I lost my shit the other day on social media, so I can take care. I've got a thick skin. It doesn't bounce straight off. I don't care.
This is my job. It's not a personal reflection on me. But when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiancé, the names they called her, and saying my baby should be miscarried, that's where I draw the line. Some people come on this podcast, and they're cagey.
Sometimes they even try and bend the truth, protect their ego. Dare I say it, sometimes they even lie. Not my next guest. Completely, utterly, brutally, honest.
Raw, unfiltered, and vulnerable. He's a British celebrity with six or seven or eight million followers. But you don't know Jim. You don't know Jim Chapman.
Almost nobody does. Today we're talking about success. The chronic curse of overthinking. We're talking about love, breakups, rumours, both of the similarities in our mindsets.
We're talking about how you need to be a contradiction in various parts of your life if you're going to be happy, something I didn't realise until today, until this conversation. And we're talking about child abuse. Child abuse to an extent that most of us could and should, hopefully, never be able to imagine. We're talking about paralysing anxiety, social media, and subsides and downsides.
And what all of this life stuff is fundamentally about. Unavoidably, there's a lot of rumours surrounding Jim. And today, he addresses some of them for good. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Barry of the CEO.
I hope nobody's listening. But if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Jim, I always think the most important place to start when I have these conversations is getting to know the experiences that made you who you are today. Because for me, that creates the context for everything we're about to discuss.
And a lot of the time, people don't really know those things. So tell me about some of the experiences, when you were younger, when you were in school, that you think have contributed to the man you are today. Okay. I guess, and it's got an instantly going to sound like a sob story, and it absolutely is not.
This is a positive thing. I guess the first thing that's been my dad. So my dad was, he did bad things. He abused my mum even before I was born.
I've got two older sisters who, you know, dealt with it as well. I don't think he ever turned a hand to them, but he verbally was very, I mean, even I remember that when I was super young, I remember being very, very hurtful and very unkind, and just bullying to my sisters. I think he was one of the boys, so my brother and I were kind of like, I've got a twin, so we were like the prodigal children, I suppose. I didn't know this, because I was born into it, but it wasn't until I got a little older, and I'd have sleepovers at friends' houses, or I would just be in the presence of other people and their parents, and I'd be like, wait, your house isn't terrifying?
This is great, you know, and I think I got, as I was slightly older, I realised that things weren't quite right, and it was one day, my brother and I were in the room next door where we slept with my parents, and we walked in, and my dad was like on top of her, just beating the shit out of her, basically, and my brother and I, we were only tiny, it must have been like five or six, tried to pull him off, but obviously he was huge, so I just pinged us away, and it was a wild night, you know, the police came, took him away, etc, etc, just kind of, and he, I didn't know at the time, he had been beating my mum and abusing her for years, but of course she was trapped. Now my mum is a saint, but also, she doesn't tolerate fools, she's not, I think the thing about the abuse is a lot of people say, oh, just get out of there, just get out of there, it's not, it's not as simple as that, she had her kids to think of, I remember being in the car with my dad, and he threatened to just crash the car and kill us all, he drove up a maniac, he was drunk quite a lot, my mum couldn't just leave with four children, because he found us, we tried to leave, he found us, you know, so I think that, he's very much a cautionary tale for me, he was out of my life from fairly young, but never fully out, because he, you know, was taken away by the police, he was arrested, he was in prison for a while, but despite the fact that we had like a court order that he couldn't come near, he still came near all the time, at one point he, kidnap is a very strong word, at one point he took me, it just kind of came to the window, and I was his son, you know, he was my dad, I worshipped him, I still didn't fully understand, so I remember going to the window and saying, mum's calling the police, you have to go, and he just went, okay, and just took me with him, and drove, we were able to play police checks, drove up super fast, and please have to kind of, you know, stop him and pull him over, it was, you know, it was a very unsettling time for a child, but because of that he was removed, and I spent most of my childhood being brought up by my mum and my big sisters, so I wanted for nothing, I was very well loved, very well protected, super well looked after, and I think actually, I often wonder, and I was having this chat, we got a child on the way, and I was thinking, I wonder what man I would be, if he had stuck around, or if we couldn't get away from him, or whatever it would be, and, you know, whether he wanted to or not, he taught me a lot of lessons, but I think mostly cautionary lessons, because my family are bloody great, you know, there's two big sisters, I've got a mum, I've got a twin brother, and I would choose no one else on the planet to say those roles, if I had a choice, they would be people I'd choose, 100%, positive with it, like she's not a victim, she doesn't let it be her, she has time because she's tired, it gets on top of her, she has a little sob, she goes to bed, she recognises the signs though, she goes right okay, it's getting on top of me, I need to rest for a while, I remember my dad just being like, a victim of it, and being like, it ruined my life, it did this, he used to play football, from what I understand, a fairly high-ish level, like kind of, he played for West Ham, not in the A team, but something, and he was like, oh the MS ruined it for me, which I'm sure he did, you know, there's no question with that, my mum didn't even know about, until we were clear from him, and he was asking her for money, because you know, he owed it to them, I mean he went to prison for like armed robbery or something, he was just, you know, really bad things, so I think for me, that's kind of the first thing my mind goes to, when someone asks me about kind of childhood formulation of me, but I don't necessarily think of it as negative things, actually I think that, because he was removed from my life, by my protectors, by my mum, my big sisters, I had a wonderful childhood, you know, when he was around, there was more money, because I think he stole a lot of money, because he took it, you know, there was two parents earning, but also he earned it by some fairies means, suddenly we had no money, and my nan had to like, buy the house that we lived in, and we stayed at my mum's best friends for like a year or so, because she took us in, and we couldn't fall anywhere else, but I was safe, and I was happy, and I was like, my mum had more capacity, to be a better mum, because she wasn't constantly, running for the hills, you know, so actually I think that, it's a really positive thing, that happened, because imagine if he was still around, imagine if he was still my father bigger now, at 33 I'd be a mess, for one thing, I think, but I'd also be, I wonder if I'd be not a nice man, and actually I pride myself on being, decent and kind, and he missed out on that. I read a little bit about the story, as I was doing some research in your book, and things like that, and one of the most startling, parts of all of this, is how much empathy, dare I say, you appear to have for this man, which I think people would find surprising, I think you said, I don't blame him for how things happened. Yeah, I don't, I actually, I think of myself as quite a pathetic person, I rarely have arguments with people, I do with Sarah, obviously, because we live on the same roof, and we have disagreements, you can't say, yes, I do have, I tend not to have, like extra personal drama, because I do consider how it would be, from someone else's perspective, and I appreciate that, yes, okay, I could have my say, because I feel slighted about a thing, and I could say, well you did this, and it made me feel that, but that's my feelings on an action, that they, and they will have equal and opposite feelings, on the way I behave, because of their actions, nobody, I believe nobody will go out of their way, just to be a prick, you know, they've always got their thoughts, and feelings, and their motivations, and I don't think anyone's doing it, oh I'll piss you off, you know what I mean, they're living their life, we all live in our bubble, my therapist calls it the lifeboat, we all live in our lifeboat, right, but we're all in the same ocean, so depending on how good your lifeboat is, you, whether there's a storm or not, right, there's a storm on the ocean, we're all in it, especially at the moment, it's a pandemic, we're all in a pandemic together, but it depends on the boat sailing on, and there are times when boats kind of bump into each other, or someone's in a dinghy, and you need to sort of tie them to yours for a while, and help them get through things, whatever, but I really don't feel like anybody is purposely an arse, it might be manipulative, and see if they might see a way that they can behave that will better them, in a situation where they go, okay, I'll come up better with that, it might do him no favours, but they're not doing it for that reason, they're doing it for that reason, they're doing it because they want to have a better situation for them, not just to piss me off, so I tend not to have arguments, I will say to someone, that's not cool, and you see that from my perspective.
And do you think, so when you think about the situation with your dad, it seems like that you avoid attributing blame to him, and then, so I'm questioning myself, I'm saying, is that because you understand the reasons why he was the way he is, or have empathy for? I have, I think there's definitely blame, I think we all have to own our own actions, but I think there are also, there are reasons behind action, I don't think it's ever as simple as, he hit my mum just because he's aggressive, I think you have to dig deeper, my grandad was, his dad, not okay, I remember going to his house and he'd be like watching, not porn, but like softcore in front of us, you know, I don't know if he was just a bit like, senile at that point, or what, but you know, it's not alright to do that with young kids around. And you see these generational cycles, right? Yeah, and I'm very proud, I'm very happy to have broken that cycle, because, you know, I don't know what his dad was like, my grandad taught my dad his behaviour, and all of it, because I actually do think there was, I actually do believe my dad had, sociopathic tendencies, which isn't necessarily a taught thing, it's more like a brain function thing, you know, but I think there was definitely something there, it didn't help having his dad, teach, instilling him certain beliefs and patterns or whatever.
My mum is a very loud person, and that's a huge understatement, like loves to scream in people's faces, very short temper, my dad is a certain way, and as I've got older and older, I've got more conscious, that at times I feel like myself becoming, a little bit like them in certain moments, and it scares me sometimes, I think, and I think, well genetically of course, I'm half a feature of them, so has it ever concerned you in the same way, that you might have picked up, some of the unpleasant traits of either of your parents? I'm telling you to my mum, my mum has unpleasant traits, only in as far as she, for example, when I moved house, wasn't talking about parking, like that sort of thing, oh you may get parking, I live in London, you don't get off street parking, I've got a parking permit, I park around the corner, that's my life, and she's like oh you need to get a driveway, I'm like no, that's the sort of thing, she won't let it drop, she's got a fact in her mind about Trump for example, and she goes oh Trump's value this thing, I'm like yeah but what about all the other things? You know so she's, that's her kind of annoying trait, and if that's the worst I get, then I'm fine with that. As far as my dad, I don't think, I mean yeah like I say, he's half me, well I'm half him I suppose, but I think that, the thing is my degree is in psychology right, so I know a little bit about it, and I'm always quite conscious, I know for example there are certain genes, that will only get triggered under certain environments, so yes alright I might well have his gene for something, but if I don't, if I'm not in an environment where it's had to, where it would have expressed itself, then I might never, and I also think that there is an element of, I guess consciousness that can override that, self-awareness, yeah self-awareness, I have education, I have therapies, I could do, yeah I'm very, I work on, I hate saying this if it sounds like really wanky, but I work on bettering myself, you know I know my flaws, I work too much, like I forget to bring my head up, and I neglect Sarah sometimes, because I'm too busy typing away, or I'm too busy in my own little world, stressing about whatever I'm stressing about, which doesn't need to happen, but it does, and I'm aware of that, and that's the sort of thing I work on, but I've never been aggressive, never been violent, I do boxing quite a lot, but it's not about the violence of it, it's about the chess of it, I don't really like the, it's an intellectual sport, you know you have to be smart, you have to think about what you're positioning all the time, and I've never, it's just not, I don't know if it's not my nature, but it's something that I won't entertain, there are times where I get driven bonkers, by Sarah or by people, and I just think oh my god, I could just like nut you right now, obviously I'm never going to, because it's just every fibre of my being, would not allow me, because I've seen the impact, I've seen, I'm six foot three, I could do some real damage, but I just never would, so I do get loud sometimes, if I'm having an argument, I would kind of just talk louder, and I think we've been saying, because we're both quite smart, and so when it comes to an argument, we're just trying to outsmite the whole time, which makes it really frustrating, to say no you're wrong, because of this, and actually yeah, with truth in both, for sure, but it's really hard to see that, when you've got your butt up, you know what I mean, but I totally think that there's no, I got, I like to think I've got the best bits of my mum, and if there is any kindness in my dad, and I remember moments, I don't have loads of memories of him, and 90% of them are negative and scary, but there are moments, I remember him sitting down with me, and reading, I forget what it was called, but you used to get like, a little bit of a figure, every time you'd make the figure, and it was like something to do with bugs, and we made a big slide, 12 quick magazine, basically, really overpriced, I remember him, he would read it with me, from cover to cover, and we'd put the bug together, now there would end up being six issues, that we didn't get done, and we had to do them one go, because he wasn't around, because he was gone, doing whatever he was doing, and he would let me down a lot, but I remember doing them, and I remember loving that time with him, what kind of dad do you want to become, because you've got a kid on the way out, once again, yeah thanks, it's really hard to say this, because I know that, every first time, prospective parent goes, oh I'm going to be the best dad, and actually, you know, invariably we'll all fuck up at some point, it's going to happen, it's just, I think for me, if I can have a child, and if I can instill in them, the waste of time and anxiety, like that's just, that's just the sheer, nonsense of it, like I really want them to understand, that worrying does nothing, you know, yes alright we can be stressed about things, there are times when life is hard, and things, there's challenges to overcome, but you overcome those challenges, when they present themselves, there's no, my therapist says to me, when you worry, you rob yourself twice, because the first time around, you're overwhelmingly thinking about nothing, but a potential problem, which may never rear his head, if it doesn't rear his head, then you've wasted time worrying about it, if it does rear his head, then you're forced into action, because you can't stay in that situation, so why stress about something, it's never going to happen, or you know, something that you will solve, if it does happen, so I really want my child to understand, just be content, I think, and to know that both me and Sarah, and all of our families, so my siblings, my mum, Sarah's siblings, and her parents, will always be there to help, you know, I think that if I can do that, then I've done a good job, I want to be patient, it's my nature, I'm a very patient person, but I also know that I'll be tested, so when I do snap, I snap quite loudly, so I want to be calm, want to be patient i want to be soft and considerate um and again pathetic because the thing about kids i really appreciate is they get frustrated because they're obviously told what to do by their parents they can't necessarily verbalize or have the communication ability to say no that's not what i want you know they have to appreciate obviously what i want i've ruled it for most part because safety or whatever but i think they i also appreciate they'll be frustrated because they can't communicate effectively why they feel pissed off because i said no um and that won't come out in like tantrums or whatever so they don't understand that as well then why right when they're trying to get your attention they don't know you're on a zoom call pitching something for example they're just like daddy would play with me you know so that's interesting my job totally allows that like i have time i can work as much as i want that's that's my job obviously i like less i earn less but you know i can make sacrifices i don't at the moment that's my problem i work constantly because i like what i do and because of the constant anxiety i'm worried about if i take my foot off the gas what happens next i find that fascinating but i picked up on that before we started recording right because every time we talked about your screenplays or other things you're working on you would then end the sentence with but i might lose it all right and i i don't resonate like i found that interesting because it's not how i end my sentences right but it was like you tell me something and then you also then have the caveat at the end with there is a chance i might not lose i might lose it all yeah i i i find it because i think that way right so where's that come from you this my mum right uh 100 again she's wonderful she has like an ethos it's not saying it's an ethos which is like they're doing nothing today wasted um she can't relax i can't relax for the consequence um if i'm sitting there just chilling even if i'm watching a film which for me i consider research because i write films right if i'm watching something i'm like oh okay i see what they're doing there and it's like i don't watch them passively i'm constantly thinking about um but even i'm sitting there watching a film like oh i shouldn't be doing it it's 9 p.m right it's the evening and i'm supposed to be relaxing and i'm sitting there going oh i shouldn't be doing this i shouldn't be doing this that's my biggest what's your brain saying at that moment it's telling me off it's just going dude you need to be watching you need to be doing you're working and making what if it goes wrong how are you going to learn the money how are you going to afford to look after your child and pay the mortgage and you know all that stuff a lot of people resonate with that for sure um and you've addressed it in therapy yeah what have you done i learned that i do it which a lot of people don't even know right that self-awareness of knowing that it's a problem you have and it's taken me i've been seeing my therapist for six seven years now that's often uh it varies if i'm going through a moment they're more often at the moment like one to six weeks because i'm pretty chill um but it's taken her most of our time together just to crack that and she's sort of said you know with me it's my biggest um strength and also my biggest floor it just depends on where it's on the dial okay if i've got that at seven it's great because i'm motivated and i'm enjoying my work and i'm loving it and i'm sitting like god i'm really good at this you know i'm typing away or doing what i'm doing if it's an eight or nine it's torture paralyzed yeah often paralyzed ironically into doing nothing because i'm so busy stressing about getting it done i don't get it done because i've got no brain space because it's too busy whizzing around in my head don't get it done um so there's a point where it's sort of really um ironically kind of just it's the antithesis of what it's designed for yeah i think i get a lot of that from my dad because i remember being young knowing that it was easier to be busy and keep myself separate so i used to draw like this yeah sit out of time's way so you would destroy the corner because you felt safe if you were busy i wasn't in his design line i couldn't be chastised or it was safe i think about that he was very unpredictable so which is terrifying for a kid right because you don't know if you're gonna get love or you're gonna get punishment for the same action um so i was doing most of my time just kind of getting on with stuff and because of that i've developed a real independence um a real creativity but if it's turned up too high it's crippling whereas if it's a good number um then it's what's got me to where i am i 100 would not be here without that because i wouldn't work as hard as i do um but i don't need to work as hard as i do you know human beings have a couple of things they need to do they need to sleep they need to eat they have the option of procreating that's kind of it right what else is there the rest of it right the rest is just made up that we've given ourselves to do society told us that in order to be a complete person we need to climb right totally it's it's debilitating sometimes so when i have that turned off too high i end up doing nothing but i worry myself and sarah's like where have you gone like i've just disappeared i don't talk i don't like i haven't been like this for a while because i'm pretty good at recognizing signs and i know to take my foot off the gas a bit because you know what therapy i've had but yeah it's the bloody worst what has helped you um therapy yeah it's absolutely that being aware of it there's a point i always say this because i've actually a couple of my best mates have i don't know a guy that's my age that doesn't need it by the way i put them in touch with therapists or sort of said something you know i think you should see someone actually we're really open on each other we're constantly looking out if one of us is quiet on group chat we'll go dude all right um i said to him i was like there's a really tough point with therapy where you start seeing someone at first you're really resistant you say no i'm fine what you're talking about but when they point things out to you like i'm not fine but you're aware of doing it you have no tools in place of how to stop doing it or how to at least challenge it so you're just punishing yourself doing it i remember going through that stage for a long time going i hate that i'm failing i hate that i'm still stressing out about being like working constantly or not working constantly whatever it is i hate that i'm doing it to myself but i can't stop and you feel like a junkie you know in the way that you're like you know it's wrong you know you should be doing it you can't you can't not um and actually it takes a while to learn the techniques you know mine is as simple as it's it's painful i have to go right stop just don't do it take your test away from your laptops away from your camera whatever you're doing have five minutes if you don't have five minutes go back to it if not then take the rest of the day off um and that's what i have to do i need to be sarah needs to check quite a lot because if i sometimes things up on me and i'm kind of like at stage four before i realize it i'm like um so she's often like dude come back um and that's really helpful it's hard though because you don't want to be told by someone that you're not performing the way you should you know what i mean that matters right right especially when it's already your weakness um but you need to be like i actually like criticism so it's good for me like you know if i send someone some work or something and they go oh okay it's constructive you know okay i see what you're doing here don't like that that's not right i thrive on that i'm back in there and i'm you know so i think having other third parties be like you're not doing right right now um and that's something that i really want to be totally aware of when it comes to my child because i don't want to be an absent father i don't want to be a dad that's always i want to be able to obviously have to work you know we will have a living but i want to be able to have my kid with me and be present you know and not them think that they're sort of auxiliary or an afterthought or just an addition i want them to know they are the center of my universe you know so professionally we talked a little bit about your work there one of the things that are that you said is you don't like being called like an influencer like a youtuber uh i think it's really reductive um and i think actually if you look at you know just weigh up the quantity of work i do it's only about less than 50 i'd say um unfortunately i don't get paid for stuff yet um but i do lots of other stuff i appreciate that i communicate other stuff online by my social media i just think influencer is the one thing's another word because it implies that you are um utilizing influence over someone whereas actually i just share stuff like even if it's um i'm working with a brand i'm not working around i don't want to talk about right so it's i'm talking about things i'm actually enjoying or passionate about whatever it may be and i don't see that as exerting influence i see that as sharing joy or even if it's just sharing good tips or whatever it may be i see that as a very different thing and i i also have a thing and i've noticed a few times there was a void in um social media where myself and my contemporaries all started around the same time did it for fun did it for love did it for adventure we had no idea it was gonna go anywhere and when it started to oh my god and genuinely i look back and i was such nostalgia i don't miss it but i love that i was part of it you know because it was such a cool journey to over in history as well you know and we sold out these venues and we were you know we had screaming fans it felt like being in a small version of one direction you know um it was wild and just so much fun did you miss that no i loved it at the time when i was in my early 20s every young person and i saw some of those clips of your meetups in like parks and stuff and i've never seen a line in my lifetime like a thousand meters i don't even know how many meters that is of people like four like four deep in like this massive line just screaming and crying at times it's really hard to put into words i tried explaining it's there when we first met because of videos yeah it's really hard if i get up on the street now by someone yeah she's also like oh i didn't scream or cry but what my point was is that everyone thinks young people young men all young people would love to be that guy you're telling me you don't miss no i loved it at the time it was great because it got to the point where you couldn't take public transport i couldn't walk to the shops um you know it sounds like i'm really exaggerating but actually at the time it really was that just i would even now if i'm walking on the street and i see a group of teenagers i'm like oh here we go here anymore they're all in their 20s but i'm so conditioned to being aware of teenagers now oh my god oh my god they're gonna come for me they're gonna like scream and cry and it's i don't i'll just play with your anxiety though that's not that's fine um i've always got time for it people stop and want to have a conversation as long as i physically have time for it i'm not rushing i'll always stop and have a chat you know i've got i'm i'm i'm really gracious in that i appreciate that without people i wouldn't be in the position i'm in i don't feel like i owe them anything because at the same time i provided the content they wanted to watch but it's definitely like a transaction right i wouldn't be there without them they wouldn't a lot of them said like when i had the mouse i was pregnant a lot of them sort of said oh my god i can't believe you like brought me up because a lot of these teenagers watched my content and my contemporary content um right because they they loved like watching us and then we were role models you know and that's a really wonderful thing to be part of and don't say you're idyllic in a way that often with with the shaytards and shaykhart and his family i didn't have a perfect family like that so you felt like you were part of that yeah i think that and also friendships with um with the others it was very living but it genuinely was that was our life at the time it was just pure fun and like there was no stress we were young so we had no like um no responsibilities no mortgages no like other things to worry about other than just like going out there and having a blast and we just got to document that and share it um no i don't miss it because i'm 33 i don't want 14 year old girls horning over me you know what i mean or just kind of like desperately trying i remember one time i'm tube and this young girl just burst into tears and her dad looked at me and thought i was like would you blame him yeah of course i was like i'm all right i'm on the internet it didn't help because um so yeah i don't miss it uh because it's actually really invasive and like i say i don't care about the notoriety it was really lovely to be that person for some people um and to have even though it was big numbers it was still fairly underground i hadn't really reached mainstream it was just online right so although it was lots of people it was a certain sort of sector it wasn't like older men it wasn't you know it was just teenagers basically um and it was yeah it was a real blast but i don't know if i feel like actually i grew out fairly rapidly the thing about it being teenagers is that no one can obsess like teenagers so they would be desperate for the photo the selfie the um they scream and cry and go ballistic and actually i'm really anti-climactic i'm just some dude i'm really sorry that's me so yeah i'm very like i'm very grateful for it and i love that i've got those memories i love that i made those friends um but yeah i don't miss it who's gym now then if that's old gym that's your say your first chapter what is your second chapter i feel like i've had so many chapters actually i feel like i've evolved i'm allowed to do that i'm allowed to evolve when it's forced it can be really ugly i think that's how a lot of people lose their following um partly it's entropy you know people grow up and they move on they do other things but algorithms algorithms i think mostly it's just people force it to try to get traffic and views actually my life has just as it's changed i've grown up with it and i've been i've accepted that change for example i'm really i'm really hoping i turn into a civil fox and i think that that's kind of my my role of social media i'm not pretending to talk to young people anymore i'm not pretending to be the cool guy and like you know i appreciate that i'm i'm getting older my life changed my interests have changed my career has changed and i share that with people as opposed to desperately trying to still impress a young audience that are right for me i speak to a lot of youtubers we need to sign a couple and there was a really interesting moment where that first wave of youtuber because of algorithm changes i think really algorithm changes what they were doing then just stopped working right the views went down and i swear to god i witnessed a form of depression and existential crisis right from these youtubers who suddenly were like what the has happened what might be with my life now because their whole identity from whether it was like 16 years old to 22 was doing this one thing they never really understood work right and it's funny because i've never really talked about this before but one of the youtubers we signed you all know his name maybe 18 at the time and we remember calling him and offering him 20 grand just to shut up to a place and he's like nah right i'm like just shut up he's like no i just can't be bothered like and he developed that sense of like complacency about his career and how you make money and how easy it is and then when changes i'm saying he can't make any money anymore and he spiraled down because i think life taught him that money and life was super easy the algorithm changes and now he's like fuck and he's still like let's go that's something i really can't tolerate in this industry is when people have that attitude like i'm where i am um because i'm good to work with as much as the numbers as much as everything else i've stayed the rest of time because i am honest and decent with my audience i respect my audience i don't take the piss and don't take the piss but also if i am offered a job i turn up on time i say all these and thank yous i get a lot of repeat work because i'm good to work with i pride myself on that and i have no i have so little tolerance for ego like all of us we're on set shooting a thing whether it's whether you're the runner or the director or you're me doing a bit to camera or you're a guy gonna get coffee we're all just want to do our job enjoy what we're doing and then go home today that was nice you know there's no space for any of that i think it's particularly bad in this industry right more so than the other because when it comes to musicians or actors or whatever they are the people around them right who are um looking after them and who are saying no and who are advising them and also they're not their own content brad pitt doesn't play brad pitt he plays someone else someone like me my job is to edit myself take my own photo make my own caption reply to my own comments and it's all like jim jim jim jim it's very easy to them think you're the center of the universe but actually for every person who's commenting on jim jim jim they're also commenting on everybody else's content because they just consume the content i might be their favorite i might not it doesn't matter i'm not um my i am not my job i think it's really important for a lot of influence to work out like they believe themselves to be important and actually i say this quite a lot if i were to die tomorrow there'd be my friends and family would be gutted obviously and they'd be really sad and there'd be a few people in my audience who are like who um have a real connection with me but for the most part people go oh that's a shame i liked him i'm not that important to them they can't continue without me certainly because it sounds really impressive to somebody so i don't know whatever but i actually think it's the opposite yeah it's the most liberating thing ever i remember i remember having the same sort of conversation with myself and it really happened when i learned about the universe and space right i got into the cosmos and i was like wait a minute i'm fucking not important at all like there's a scene in cosmos where it zooms out from and it just keeps going and you're like wait stop and it's like nope that's just the moon and it goes out and it's like that's just the galaxy and then the galaxy becomes a piece of sand and you're like what the right but the freeing part is that means that all this doesn't matter and that's liberation like ego can be and this is the powerful thing about psychedelics from the last person who's the biggest psychedelic investor in the world right is it dissolves your ego and says you you don't fucking matter right and yeah it's really it's really important to learn i think probably one of my biggest uh learnings in my career through it you know the beginning when everyone was like obsessing over the youtubers i was like wow i'm like a really big deal um i think it's really important to know your worth and to know your value and to um appreciate your position i know that i am worth a certain amount of money i work on the ground or i know that i'm worth a certain amount of time if i'm doing a thing but i also know that i don't matter in the grand scheme of things and that this is a phase i might i might fuck this up tomorrow it might last another 10 years it might last another 30 years and i might never want to quit equally i might get bored of it and go you know what i feel like it's too invasive now whatever it doesn't matter it's my decision and i don't owe anybody else but equally they don't owe me they don't have to watch me if they don't choose to and i think that's really important a lot of people especially when they're young and they're developing their sense of identity as a lot of influencers are and suddenly they're in a position where they are reaching lots and lots of people um it's very very easy to think of yourself as the center of the galaxy and we're not and actually what really matters what truly matters is the people that matter to you you know and as much as i appreciate my audience i don't know them you know i wouldn't know i mean statistically there's a certain number of them that die every year just because of whatever right i've got no idea what's happening you know i've got no idea what's happening so it just happens that i'm on the other side of the camera and people connect to me and i connect to them but it doesn't go any further than that you know something really almost your perspective is fascinating because on one end you're very you're very freed right on the other end you talk about your anxiety of of worry and i'm trying to weigh those two things up this idea that you're like you know i don't have a plan i've heard you say that i don't have a plan the future is the future whatever but then maybe when we zoom in and look at the micro scale which is like right now today it seems to be very yeah you're not wrong i think on the on the wider scale um i um it's very freeing to know this on the more individual scale like when you zoom right in it's the stress of survival i suppose of like um being enough to maintain so you know what that comes down to money i think which is unfortunate because like money's not my name motivates but i realize it's necessary where did you learn that i feel like is there anything in your past when money or the lack thereof became you know became um no i don't think compromised my safety i'd say we didn't have any um and i appreciate that life is um it's i said earlier there's a point where you have enough and that after that point doesn't matter anymore you know you can go from having a little bit so that you can enjoy holidays etc you know buy some luxury things whatever you want after that point it's all numbers doesn't really make any difference but when you go the other side of the scale you haven't got enough it's a major stress you know because what blows my mind about it is it's all fake like it doesn't it's just it's literally going here's a piece of paper or loads of your stuff and you go okay cool i put value on that piece of paper it's bollocks but it's unfortunately the way our world works and that stresses me out just in terms of providing like i couldn't go back i mean i could i'd have to but i would really struggle if i had to go back to a conventional job this doesn't suit me like i was bloody miserable my mum got to kill myself when i was working those jobs you it's a need for me to create and i know that sounds ridiculous and really blank but like i i can't turn up to a job that is the same thing every day it for me feels like a prison um and i actually i think people that can do that are like special because how wonderful to know that you are um you can switch on do your job um you can know that you are earning your money you're looking after your people you know you raise your kids whatever it really is what your life is and also provide society give back taxes and all that stuff and just be you know a good egg and then go have a job again i think that's the most wonderful sensation something i've never experienced and probably never will because my mind doesn't work that way so for me the anxiety comes from the fear of going back to that or not being able to provide and the only way i know how to provide is in a very risky industry where i have to constantly churn out content and constantly create whatever i'm creating in order to earn the money um and that's a scary thought um but i also appreciate that it's the anxiety comes in the job of it i think the freedom comes in the um sort of more i guess matter of it you know like i don't matter whatever the jim chapman's not really not any relevance um but for my life it's really important i put food on the table for sarah and my child and that's funny because you know we always live in now right it's only ever gonna be now and uh what you're saying is in the now there is urgency there is stress yeah so we're never gonna live in the future it's never gonna be better that's not the experience where i'm gonna have maybe if we meditate we can spend some time there but day to day we live in the present moment um it's yeah it's really really interesting to me and as you say you're in an industry where a lot of people aren't making a lot of money right the creative industry so it's particularly challenging um yeah very much so and i think people are following their passion i think the thing we're influencing in particular is that the passion is so easily monetized but it's also so easy to take away and it's so competitive that it often i think some people are just passionate about the business of it um now i don't pretend to have a business mind at all i haven't got a bloody clue i've got production company i've just started with one of my pals and he's in charge of business when it comes to my my social media stuff my management are in charge of the business i just make the stuff i want to make the stuff i think will be good um and i fully believe in letting people do play to their strengths my strength is not that so but i often get called like an entrepreneur or something i'm like all right it's just been it's been luck and timing and really bloody hard work um and the hard work i can i'm in control of the luck and timing i'm not um and the other people around me are in charge of sort of i guess bringing looking after like the financial side of things you know it's the other stuff that i don't you hate you said a couple moments ago the proponents that have made you successful you said like you know luck hard work etc etc do you think you could have achieved what you've achieved over the last 10 years without hard work no absolutely not how do you square that with the culture we live in today is almost viewing hard work as a bit of a toxic thing i've almost got to the point i'll never get there because i don't care that much but i've almost got to the point just to say i will never get there right because i'm gonna lie to people where i sometimes feel bad being honest that i wouldn't be here without hard work i'm not telling you to burn out right but i don't know how if i hadn't have sacrificed in the way that i did of course that's my experience i've not lived another life right i can only tell you what i've done yeah i think it's really important it's like work hard play hard right it's really important i i posted this on my instagram story the other day everybody there's like you're right there is a lot of people who are sort of um uh pooh-poohing working hard don't work too hard and there's also people who on my instagram comes up at the time hey i run three businesses and i do this and i'm only 12 years old and like for sure yes for sure that's what i mean there's there's definitely something to be said this is where i struggle when you work work hard like and work with passion like you know again work is a dirty four letter word right if you find the other thing if you find something you love doing you know work really hard and work with passion but also stop when you need to stop take your time off enjoy your evenings or you know again i've got a job which allows me to work as much as i please i wish i did like a four-day week i would very much like to do that so i have a three-day weekend i take a day off in the middle of the week i've got the means to do so just got the brain to do so you know um and i think that that's a really important distinction i wish you work all your bloody life and suddenly you're 60 and you've gone oh my god i haven't actually enjoyed my experiences um i haven't actually you know i've got to do some really bloody experiences and sometimes i'm too busy stressing about what's next in my diary or finishing a thing meeting a deadline or even stressing about key measures i've got to get across when i'm on that adventure i forget to enjoy the adventure and it's the biggest sort of um waste of time that my job has within it you know like i remember being in a on a helicopter this wasn't me actually this was somebody else who i recognize in i was taken away um to new york i was going on a helicopter around manhattan and it was like you know what a cool experience people don't get to do that very often um and this guy was sat next to me in the middle and he couldn't take his picture because he had to lean over me and i said i'll stop seats with you the pilot came over the um you know whatever it said and said um oh don't stop seats because you'll unbalance a helicopter the guy was so pissed off he said no i want to swap well no because you'll kill us now so it's a bit different i offered you my seat when i didn't think we were going to die and he sold so much because he couldn't get closer he wanted him i'm like that for me really really kind of is the epitome of not enjoying the moment but just enjoy the bloody helicopter ride around manhattan you idiot um but that's probably a bi-product of social media or something because you know the part of the value of that was for him clearly was being able to tell the world he did it versus being in the moment for sure for sure and of course that is job we have to tell while we've done something otherwise you know it hasn't happened right and there's no point in taking me on that really cool experience and I haven't told anyone about it you know so there's definitely a dichotomy there in that you need to prove that you've done it and you need to show your enjoyment um but you need to also not let that take you out of the moment and that's fine though one of the things I've been thinking a lot about lately which links to that completely is because I sit with people all the time and one of the things I keep noticing is that in order for them to actually be happy they have to try and be a contradiction or two completely different people in separate areas of their life a lot of the lack of success they have either in their work or relationships or whatever or in their personal lives comes from them not being able to switch off from being from going like being super successful entrepreneur and then when they get home being loving patient right and then the example we've just been talking about there I would assume happiness will come from being able to do your job and take the photo but then have experiences where you just don't give a fuck if the world is watching that's entirely it that's not easy no it's not easy I um and dare I say the thing that put you on the helicopter might have been the inability to switch off in some degree I haven't got to where I am by switching off whenever I choose to you know what I mean I've got here because I work harder than I should um and that's a massive sacrifice because I've missed out on moments I've missed out on um you know like there are times where I should just be more present with Sarah but I'm too busy working I miss out on things but I get to go there but yeah more than that I get to live a really cool existence like I love my job so it's really difficult but my the way I kind of cross that T dot that I I suppose is that I will very often much rather pay for a holiday and have an actual holiday rather than just calling a trip it's very easy you know without sounding like a real moron it's very easy for me to call a trip if I want to I just email a PI and say oh I want to go to Dubai and they go all right where do you want to go right but I tend to not to because listen if it's oftentimes a thing will come to me and it's a place I've never been or it's never happened I'll jump on it but I will tend not to request a free trip because honestly my time is more valuable than the money I can potentially earn so I would rather pay my money to go somewhere and switch off and read a book do the crossword puzzle hang out you know because I value that much more than the money I think that that's the thing I think some people put their value in money in my view too high um and I don't value it like that I think my what's most important my value more is people and time one of the other really interesting things you said as we were talking maybe before we started filming was you were talking about the things that you're good at writing about with screenplays one of the things you said was love yeah I thought to myself I wonder why he's good at writing about love um I don't know actually I I know my strengths when it comes to writing it's one of those things where to begin with I've still got it 10 years on but I know I'm good at that um I know I can send a script somewhere they might not like it it might not be the thing to them and I get told no quite a lot but invariably they say you know what great script you've done a really good job there um so I am confident in my ability there and I know my strengths are dialogue um because I write how people talk but also get the point across I can't I'm the worst person to film with because I'm watching something I'm like people don't talk like that you know um but also love I just think I've got I don't know I think I'm a bit more romantic and it comes down I think it really for me comes down to how you feel love you know if you can feel love and you can put pen to paper you can write love um and I I I pride myself on trusting and loving like to I'm not a girlist person I'm not um I'm never gonna micromanage a relationship like that if I love someone I trust them implicitly they can do as they wish they can go out with the boys whatever I'm never gonna go oh who do you meet and what happened I'm never gonna like check their phone you know I'm never gonna do any of that because if I love someone I'm all in um and that for me is really important if you get your fingers burnt then all right then you then let's make it one chance you know um that's that's my life you had a very public relationship and one that was shared on YouTube for many many years and you ended up marrying said person and um and then that relationship ended um difficult I imagine to have that experience in public right it's impossible yeah we were together for 12 years and most of that time was wonderful you know it was really great like I said we come through the world together we were both part of that first breed of influencers social media people we had a wicked time and then we grew up together it was as simple as growing up in slightly different directions you know um and at some point you know I literally did this for the first time last week on this podcast I was like I'm almost starting to see relationships like two parallel lines and and if you imagine parallel lines have just a one percent angle either way sure right we're either going to stay parallel or you're going to go away from each other all closer together over time so I look back at it now and I realize that actually it probably was a small a small incline or the incline which I want to put it but it at some point becomes insurmountable becomes a castle you can't leave anymore right so I look back at it and realize that perhaps it was uh it started much earlier than either of us either of us realized and we just kind of kept getting more and more distant until eventually we were just roommates basically um was it hard to break off when you get to that point because you got a world watching yeah it wasn't hard as a couple because we were both we both knew we deserved the best right we both knew we were like this isn't working because I think we both tried for a while we were like oh come back around we were not stupid we both knew we deserved better so when we actually had the conversation it was for both of us quite freeing emotional because of all the time we had together but quite freeing of course you then got the audience to think of who make assumptions right and oh I've lost count the amount of times I've been called a cheater um just and poor old Sarah is called my mistress constantly I didn't even know Sarah existed like she was not a person to me until well after we broke up you know like I met her on an app and like I'm really I'm really tempted at some point sometimes to get the app right I haven't got anymore I want to re-download it and find our conversation look we started talking on this day just to prove the point because it's not Sarah didn't sign up for this shit you know she fell in love with me um and it just happens I come with a bit of an audience who have opinions on things you know we all got it right we've all got opinions on things I watch people who break up on TV or I watch like the drama with say Meghan and Harry or whatever and I have my thoughts and my feelings on it um but of course I'm not going to DM them about it you know um and I think that is the issue that on the internet there's sort of anonymity and people can say things thinking there's no repercussions I lost my shit the other day on social media because and I'd never address it I'm very much of the like I said earlier I'm inconsequential I'm a grand scheme of things so I can take hate I've got a thick skin it doesn't bounce me straight off I don't care like this is my job it's not a personal reflection on me so whatever but somebody had DMed Sarah a bunch of pictures of my old relationship my previous life and said you'll never match up to her and then has said another one saying your child was definitely miscar and I lost my shit and I'd never I've never behaved this way online but I went straight to my Instagram stories and I told the person I said fuck you to the person um and also I was very mad and perhaps I should have let caller heads prevail but actually the amount of um support I had on the back of it because you know what bloody two guys stand up for you stand up for Sarah stand up for yourself stand up for your child um and we had two years of it right me and Tarnie broke up just over two years ago me and Tarnie got together I don't know like as far as the world is concerned a few months later but Tarnie that wasn't it because the world then we found out me and Tarnie broke up when we decided to tell them we decided to tell them when we did because the press found out so actually it was much earlier than anyone realises because we were trying to get our heads around it and work out how to do it with minimal um sort of like minimal backlash negative energy right because we didn't have any towards each other at all um but when it comes to when it comes to me being called a cheater or whatever it's fine it bounces back off and I hold my head high everybody i know and care about and respect and love knows what really happened that's what really matters to me i don't care but when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiance the names they called her and saying that my baby should be miscarried that's where i draw the line the person that sent that message you know that they they probably wanted that reaction yeah i do um i'm one of the best advice that i was ever given was don't play around in the mud with the pics because you both get dirty but yeah so i live by a motto i've never explained never complain i don't i own my decisions like i own my life i'm an adult i don't have to explain myself to anyone should i not wish to like simple um i am confident in my ability and my decisions that i'm like this is the path i'm choosing and you can like it or lump it basically um but i felt like making an example i didn't out anyone i didn't say any names you know share any um use names but i felt like an example of that person especially without character form to do so would have had overall positive consequences of the people who were thinking it but weren't writing it or people were thinking of writing it and actually you know what sarah's getting much less of it now i'm getting much less of it now um so i think in a way it was almost like cost benefit analysis i think there's always going to i was thinking a lot lately because of um there's a couple of my friend is there global head of social media manchester united and there's a lot of black players and so when the team loses what you see on the black players instagram there's lots of monkey emojis and um it's actually awfully my friend called me and said what do you do about this right he said we're gonna take this dance um as a club and you know they we talked a little bit about it on like our whatsapp group whatever and the club stood up changed the cover photos and said like magic united against racism because shining a light on it it's like it's almost like it's not a real thing how to explain this it could be some 14 year old kid who is leaving these monkey emojis who is actually quite an okay person but they just have this thing in them where they want a bit of attention right they see you or it's not really a real human right an idol and so they think they're not like an inherently bad person but when you get anonymity and you get and we all have this you know nvms that comes from some of the life analogy right and so like i don't know what i'm basically saying is that i don't think we're ever going to be able to cure that problem with the only way i've actually seen is i think you'd kill 99 of it if your social networks went anonymous because i think if you connect real world consequences to behavior that's not why but that's why you don't go up to someone and say those things in public because there's real consequences i think i think people should have there should be some sort of like identification process when you set something out and totally agree with it because the amount i get that sarah gets um is it's a real bloody shame especially because these people are like supposed to be and i use this in inverted commas fans they're supposed to care about my life my existence they're supposed to you know they follow me for a reason yeah um and i refuse to believe because i like to think i'm a force of positivity and i talk real talk and i share real things but even when i'm talking about mental health or a bigger issue i do so from a stance of positivity right at least i try to so i refuse to believe that somebody is that negative or hates me that much but in six minutes you've got six how many people have you got uh across everything i think i've got two on youtube two on insta just over to on twitter i don't know about facebook six seven eight whatever but then you're reaching more people you know people that follow you want the ones that you'll reach yeah of course if you took that many people and thought probabilistically how many of them would just not be like okay people but have the capability of sending out awful yeah there's gonna be a fucking thousands yeah you also guarantee that when i do like for example when i announced that sarah and i were pregnant um i went on twitter and i was i was trending for years so i was going through it and it was really positive but there's a lot of it that was just like um hey i had a really good time responding to some of it not like i was saying anything like for example i was like jim chapman exists and he's not with tanya he's like a baby who knew and i just recently responded i know right i'm still alive who knew um so nothing like i didn't respond to real negativity just people going wow that's like that's a funny old story always not tanya um and i really enjoyed it i actually found that good fun because by drawing attention to it these people were then i love you you're the best because obviously i've let them know that i've seen it and i'm not tolerating bullshit but also i don't care enough that i'm going to write something really negative about it i'm just like yeah i see that i acknowledge it i am here i'm also human and it's yes a really interesting sort of phenomenon that people can write what they want without any sort of consequences when you give them consequences they'll suddenly go oh wow you've noticed me funny funny thing happened this week this weekend yesterday um there's a story that came out in press something that i'd done this kid like dm to me he made me a wikipedia page like i thought you deserve one so i made one and i'll finish up in ten minutes i said what great show i've finished if you show your writing skills like come back with us it was in the papers there's this like facebook page where one of the articles papers was posted there's 60 comments 59 of them are like amazing right and then there's this one comment which is like really funny it's like steve bartlett is like an evil guy he they said that i made a pr story out of the manchester bombings because we raised a huge amount we let our team have a day off and we raised this huge amount of money for the families of the victims right and so he wrote this whole stuff about me and i screenshotted it and i messaged the guy i said could you like i sent him a screenshot i mean could you explain this i've never seen someone just completely change right and i said one thing i said was would you be okay with me sharing this on my channels that's what he said absolutely not absolutely not why can't i share it in public because he's written on a public forum right he's written on a public forum why can't i share it on my channels why wouldn't you like three million people saying that right yeah and and he was like do i have permission to share this and you went absolutely not do i have permission to respond to it publicly absolutely not and it's just fascinating to see the behavior because he obviously was in some facebook group didn't expect me to see it and this is i'm trying to over the last couple of i guess months trying to understand how to deal with this social media centric often group thinking because i'm sure the cheating stuff was one oh yeah yeah it was a group people yeah yeah i would say time is anything um she's never come out and called me a cheater um she hasn't done the opposite um like i have i'm being totally frank about it like you know i sort of said there was nothing yeah you addressed it i've addressed it i'm trying to i moved on first as far as the world is concerned you know what i mean like it's really hard to say this without sort of making accusations as far as the world knows i moved on first not necessarily i should stop there but it's it's tricky to be accused of something when they've only got limited information to to use right so because people see that i moved on first they think that perhaps i cheated so for me saying i didn't cheat for sarah saying i didn't cheat with jim um doesn't necessarily prove anything right because of course we're going to say that because we want to deny our infidelity right um and it's tricky to keep going back to and keep saying the same thing especially when it's so unfounded um but at this point you just let it go but you can't you can't change it but like i said there's there's like a a load of people watching they all have opinions on you good or bad and the perks of this job is that we get paid well for it and that we get to live a bloody adventure like it's so cool i never expected this in my life i never expected to be able to do the stuff i get to do and live the life i get to live it was never planned out for me i never had like um the tools in place for it i found myself here and i've grabbed on with both hands and i've worked really hard to maintain it so that's the perk of being a fisherman unfortunately comes with a few drawbacks which is that people make opinions on you and you just have to not care so much it's not easy though it's not easy at all especially when it's so untrue um yeah and also there's no way to rectify it there's no way i can rectify it yeah basically yeah um that's really difficult yeah yeah and and you must have this you see these falsehoods in the comment sections you must instinctively be like yeah that's not true and that's harmful to my relationships whatever i need to fix that i still revalued on you we're still next so i'm not you know i'm never gonna i'm not gonna uh make a big thing i try to just when it comes up in conversation i'll just say yeah it's this we grew up right because i respect her and i value her and i i don't want to keep bringing it up all the time because also it doesn't define neither of us people break up all the time unfortunately we break up in public it doesn't define us we both still have our careers we still have our lives we still have our people um and that's very important it's just a shame that it comes up so frequently and it's so um untrue i had a sex therapist a relationship therapist on this podcast um two weeks ago and she said a really lovely sentence but i haven't been able to forget but she said just because the relationship ends doesn't mean it wasn't successful i still look at us as very successful yeah like i said we ticked all our boxes the next thing for us was what i'm now doing with sarah and um i see now that tanya would not be the best to do that with you know sarah a hundred percent is and there are things that i have had i've never experienced before um and i'm very lucky like i said earlier i feel like when tanya and i started going that direction separate ways um it was earlier than i i think he gave us kind of gave credence to um and so if we had done if you know if i had have done things i don't think it would have been for the best you know whereas now i'm i know that sarah's my person i've learned a lot i know what i'm worth i know what i can expect from a partner um and it's it's really i've never experienced it this way it's really lovely it's really fruitful it's really rewarding it's really dynamic and it's really reciprocal did you have a list of um actually i was talking to a couple of friends the other day um mixed gender group and one of those questions like what's on your list for an ideal partner and so you're with the partner so i'm saying i guess my question to you is what does what did you look for but and also i want you to answer the second question which is what does a partner need to offer jim in order to be a good partner uh okay well if i need to offer me i think um i i need to like i said earlier if i love someone i trust 100 right i expect the same return i can't deal with jealousy i can't deal with someone checking up on me if i'm out or if i'm doing something i i'm not going to humor it because it's not me and i don't want anyone to consider that it might be me and if as my partner you're thinking oh he's out somewhere he's with someone doing something he shouldn't be then i have no time for it so i expect that um but also i i expect to be appreciated um you know i know it's complicated it doesn't happen all the time there are times where you're in a bad mood or whatever but as i was walking here sarah texted me saying i know i haven't said it because um i'm just feeling really sick you know with the pregnancy and everything but she went my my baby's at that point you know i really do appreciate you um and i haven't said it much and that's that's that's all i need why does that matter so much because i want to know that i'm valued um and that's that's that's the thing for me i don't care um because if i'm going to give someone my all and like i said earlier if i'm in love with someone they get everything they get all my stuff if it's stuff i care about i get all my time they get everything right um and i need to know that there's value in me giving myself is that literally i thought perhaps yeah perhaps i i just fully believe maybe this is why i write love well i fully believe that if i'm with someone they've got it all right i don't believe in i don't mean that in a really codependent way because that's like the worst you know if you're encouraging each other into something i feel like you both need to live your life independently but make a good team and like you when you team up together i think good stuff happens basically um and yeah perhaps but i i think that i for me if i'm not if i don't feel like i'm valued enough i don't feel like my um it's not sacrifice not sacrifice but i feel like what i'm giving isn't appreciated or my worst nightmare is being tolerated if i'm with someone and they just go all right and they just tolerate me i'm out the door um because i'm too good for that i have value and everybody i'm not saying me as an individual each and every single person has their value right they deserve to be appreciated for that value and if they're with somebody who doesn't appreciate it takes it for granted um whatever then you're not with the right person you know i think that you need someone who uh respects you and appreciates you um and who sees your worth uh perhaps more than you do i mean i i don't see myself that clearly sometimes um and sarah often often say like you know if you tell me so you know my baby's a jackpot with the dad that they've got coming up is you know that means a lot to me and that's a player but i will after this and that is it's a really big thing it's such a little effort for her to send but it means a lot to me have you heard about love languages yeah have you ever done the all love languages have you no i tend not to i don't believe in i just tend not to um i think it's this sometimes if i'm super aware of it then i don't know if it's like i said earlier therapy right when you're aware of your your thing your stuff yeah and then you do it more and until you learn the tools of how to overcome it or actually challenge it it's frustrating i feel like if i learned that i was this way inclined every time i did that apparently i'm apparently i'm like the artist i will capital yeah i did mine it's actually really you know i'm not that guy i'm not like a i'm not i look at the sun and decide what's going to happen tomorrow because i'm not that guy but the love language thing is based on asking a bunch of questions about what you value more so something comes up with an answer that says jim chattlin values when someone does this and yours will be words of affirmation or recommendation mine is slightly different we'll talk about my name but um we're going to do your love language um so it says and this is not surprising that's what i expected from our conversation up until that point right jim's primary love language is words of affirmation actions don't always speak louder than words if this is your love language unsolicited compliments mean the world to you hearing the words i love you are important hearing the reasons behind that love um sends your spirits to the skyward insults can leave you shattered and are not easily forgotten kind encouraging and supportive words are truly life-giving to you and you rank as a 33 on words of affirmation which is high you rank as three percent on receiving gifts 17 on acts of service and then physical physical touch and quality time you rank the same okay i would say gifts i think it might be more to somebody else i think that my job comes to a lot of stuff yeah so i don't really care about that much um i'd agree with that um like i said earlier we got a lot of hate about stuff but if the hate comes from someone i love yeah that's an issue yeah that's an insult as well yeah yeah that's that's a problem if it comes from someone um that i care about um yeah i mean sarah does all that she actually does most of everything um which is great um um and i'm genuinely i'm very fortunate to have her um she is everything that i want and i use the word want and not need because i think that's the difference between codependency and like a healthy relationship i don't need her i would be fine my life will continue but she brings a little uh a little spice a little something extra and it's much more enjoyable to have her by my side for everything for sure what's next for you then you're working a lot we're talking about this yeah i am um i'm always working on stuff i just love creating um so i have to start a production company with my friend we started in january or february last year so just as a world like but actually you know what it's given us a chance to really knuckle down um and we've got some really good head waves so far um we're having lots of big conversations with important people and people seem to like our stuff um i we do scripted and unscripted so i head out the unscripted that's right i have the scripted stuff so my writing so far i've got a couple of films on the go i'm writing a book um i'm also working on like a show series and we've got a bunch of stuff that i also chip in on um but that's very much james my business partner very much his sort of um wheelhouse um and the difference in time it all takes so he's constantly having meetings and constantly like churning stuff out whereas my stuff is a lot longer so I often feel like I'm not pulling my weight but then I'll send him a document yesterday which is 20,000 words long which took me two weeks to write and it's like a an entire breakdown beat by beat of how I see this new thing working and he's like oh you're doing stuff so it's weird but I think we both we both are really invested we're both really good at what we do we're successful in our own rights um but I think there's something special about working on something that's just for passion we don't need this to work which we really want it to and that's really exciting you know if they say oh you know Jim Chapman was a success 10 years from now what would they mean um what would that mean to you I mean for me if I was saying about myself it would it would mean that I in terms of work it would mean I was respected in my field uh people who my contemporaries appreciate my input uh but more than that if it was just in general success it would mean I got out okay you know I mean I came out the other side of this and um I have I'm content for me contentment is sort of like a a goal you know I don't think it is for many people um I don't want to stress about stuff necessarily I don't want to constantly strive for more um I don't feel like it's necessary I want to be really happy with what I've got and I have that very in spades with my people my family my friends and Sarah my baby on the way I've got more contentment than I can throw a stick at I don't have it in terms of my career because I'm constantly worried about where it goes so you ever I hope I do I think what it would take is um a project that is very successful so in my writing and then people come to me rather than me constantly knocking on doors you know what I mean it'd be really nice to be in a position where they go hey you wrote that thing and it did really well I want to give you opportunities now rather than me chasing it and I have that in terms of social media like I'm very lucky to be in a position I'm in which is sort of I've been doing it for a very long time I have a good name for myself so people often come to me I don't have it in my other part of my job and I'd love that but I'm still doing it doing it you know like I say I've been writing the first three and a half years but that only got to a point where it was worth talking about a year ago you know so it's still very much a sympathy so I just hope I get to a point where people um like my stuff and go you know what you're really good at this let's let's work with you on this project you're in the previous half days right I think so in terms of this new industry right and uh and a lot of people are a lot of very talented people are and in fact it appears we actually had no clock right in the chair before you and uh he talks about his own journey he was not back so many times by the industry um that he was like I have to eventually try and create my own path like create my own movies and he's now at a point where you know if he's got an idea he's not necessarily knocking on doors having to audition yeah he turns them out yeah he's killing it um and he's what 15 years into that get 20 years into that game it takes a long time and a lot of it unfortunately so you know what you know um but you know I if it doesn't happen it won't be trying um and I won't hold it against myself I'm not going to be I won't feel like a failure um because I don't I don't believe in that I believe you can be a failure if you quit and you never try you never try but if you don't make it and you've given it a good bloody shot then you know you've done the best of the most yeah I said that to you very much in the gym I thought about it I thought you know the concept of worry and fear are so illogical because you know no human has ever done more than their best and even on my shit days where I'm like really unproductive and whatever bad mood or whatever that was actually still my best fact day my definition so this you know um but it's fascinating and I um looking over your story and your career one of the key things I saw was the temptation for me to like resist your labels and to and to not be sucked into the world telling you who you are yeah I I think it doesn't really you know what it's one of the things where you meet people and the second question they ask you is what you do for a living the first thing hi what's your name right and there's more to all of us than what we do like I said earlier my job isn't what I do not who I am right so I don't like being Jim Chapman YouTuber you know um it's probably a box in the same way that you know an accountant might not want to just be called an accountant you know there's more to him he's got his own life and whatever um I just feel like it's it's it's tricky in this industry because people don't like being good at more than one thing if you're written about um in the press or whatever it's probably for you entrepreneur right for me it's YouTuber still um and actually like I say a small part I upload one video a week and I've only been doing that since we found out we were pregnant because now it's nice to talk about stuff other than that I you know what I mean so there's more to us we're allowed to explore new avenues do new things but I think for the sake of um society understanding who which box you fit in right there's an article they have to use a word so that the reader knows and they can't say Jim Chapman and then list your skills so they're like box which box right and I understand it because it's how we even down to like you know the simple individual we all stereotype yeah I mean that's just that's just psychologically it makes sense because it totally and it gives us sort of like categories to work from you walk down the street and you see every single person as an individual it's a sensory overload so you see someone in say a certain clothing and suit and you're like oh okay you're a banker he might not think he doesn't like wearing a suit but in your head that's what he's done because it's easier just to sort of carry on with your day compartmentalize I wonder if we didn't imagine if you know lying running towards us we thought I wonder if this is a this is a good life I said just the other day we're having a conversation quite a heated conversation about something and um she's I call her worst case scenario quite a lot because she often will catastrophize and I said you're the kind of person that sees someone running and you assume they're running from I don't know a crime or a gun or something I'm the kind of person that seems they're running towards a bus I see the world as neutral right I don't think the world has an opinion on me um but I see my people as positive and I know there's a lot of negativity out there but um I don't see the world as that kind of place in general whereas some people I think are geared up to think the worst it's like um you know the whole fight and flight thing um some people are geared I think I probably die right because I'd be geared up to see a stick as a stick whereas it actually makes much more sense to see a stick as a snake because the one time it is a snake you don't die whereas it's like oh it's a stick gonna get bit and die um so I think uh if it were 200,000 years ago it'd be no good but actually in today's society I feel alright because I just like to see I think inherently I just see the world as a neutral or at best positive um I don't want to think that everybody running is running from an explosion you know it's just not the way I choose to see the world I think that's a much healthier way to see the world I think so um but anyway listen thank you so much for your time today I think you're an incredibly inspiring guy not least because of what you've achieved but because of your willingness to be honest thank you I think you know a lot of stuff you share about your childhood and being open as a man about you know the impact therapy is hell on you I think is such an admirable thing and even your call to you know for men to go to therapy I think is something I can completely get behind um there's been so much stigma around it for you know you know a bunch of historical reasons like when society were ever coming but I really applaud you for that and I'm super excited to see what you do next you're you know you're clearly someone that's a brilliantly talented b it's incredibly hard working and um yeah and that that mixed with your um your huge amount of self-awareness I think is going to make for some unbelievable I hope so um I also think that it could go totally the opposite way but in a way you know I will I know whatever I do I'll do the less my ability you know so if it doesn't go the way I intend I'll find the next thing you know I'm smart enough to do that thank you this episode is sponsored by Morgan Stanley's thoughts on the market today's financial markets moves fast Morgan Stanley moves faster with their daily podcast thoughts on the market thoughts on the market covers daily trains across the global investment landscape with actionable insights from Morgan Stanley's leading economists and strategists and 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