Kaishuo Chen on Confucius and Esotericism

Welcome back to the new Thinkery, my name's David Barr, and with me is always my good friend Alex Preo. How are you Alex? Doing well David, how are you? I'm doing well, and how are you doing Greg?

Well I wasn't getting the same thing, but I should have been down the last couple days, kind of said he had a little minor issue, you know. What's wrong with your boy? Teddy's your son for us. Yeah, sorry, right, right.

Well we were playing peek-a-boo, and things could just get out of hand, and we had to take him to the ICU. Anyways, that's a joke. But those who didn't recognize that was a joke, but... I'm doing great to our guest.

Right, that's great. That's great. Yes, yes, yes. Our guest tonight is Keshu Chen.

He's a doctoral student at Boston College, where he's currently writing his dissertation on the reception of Confucian Thought in the Enlightenment, especially the French Enlightenment Thought of Montesquieu and Pierre Beil. He was an undergraduate student at Harvey Mansfield at Harvard, and tonight he's going to be talking with us a little bit about Confucious. We're going to try to give folks an overview of Confucian Thought, at least some sort of introductory kinds of things, and then the reason we were having this guest on is because we heard that there might be something a little more interesting or maybe a so terror going on with Confucious. And so the episode today was sort of lay out why someone would generally be an Confucious, what an ordinary reader would get from him, and then we'll turn to try to unpack things a little more deeply.

That's at least the plan today. Yeah, so welcome, Keshu. It's great to have you here. It's my honor to be here.

So I thought since we're an American audience and our knowledge of Chinese culture and wisdom is restricted to the insides of a fortune cookie, so ignorant are we, that I thought maybe we could begin with just the basics about Confucious. You know, who was he, what was his main accomplishments, when did he live even, what was his influence on China, even beyond China, and when did he sort of come to have some influence on the West and what that was, historical background. Sure. And I think before I go off into an introduction on Confuciousness, let me just just preface talking about the benefit of this conversation in practical terms.

I think there are two reasons why our conversation tonight might be very useful to even a typical non-flasophic audience. The first reason is practical, given the increasing importance of China in the world today, I think more and more people in America are become interested in the history and the current politics of the country. And I think I'm on those who believe that you only to understand the current situation and especially the political circumstance of country, you have to go back into its past. I mean, does I follow the understanding of the great talk film in Demarcia, America, where at the beginning, he was talking about how he studied America, he's laying down the methodological principle for understanding America.

And he said, you know, the nation have to go back to its first beginnings, just like you observed how a human being grows from a baby into your adult. You don't just look at the adult, you look at how the human being was as a baby. In the same way when you study a nation have to go back, perhaps to the very beginnings when its first culture and custom developed. And Tocqueville then, of course, gave us a demonstration of his methodology in the rest of the remarks in America.

So I think by following Tocqueville, we should likewise take interest in Confuciousness and just for the sake of understanding how China is at the moment. And of course, making this point, I do not suggest that Confuciousness is the only thing necessary for understanding China. You don't need to understand many more things, especially the upheaval of the modern times that led to, you can say, the displacement of Confuciousness from Chinese politics. And that's of course a long story which we can already go into here.

Basically, in short, there was a kind of modern rebellion against the entire Confuciousness, traditional Confuciousness in the 20th century, which mentally culminated in the Chinese revolution, the Mao Zedong, but you know, so, but even with that, we should understand how important Confuciousness is as the force, which the modern sort of trend tried to combat and overcome. So you don't understand that modern force. We also have to understand its opponent, which is Confuciousness. So in any case, from a practical point of view, for those who are interested in how China is going on, how China works right now, why has the reason to study Confuciousness?

So that's the practical reason. Now I'm going to bring up the more philosophic reason for those who are philosophically trained. They have a reason, especially for those who are aware of the principle of esotericism as explained by Leo Shrall's. There's a reason to take an interest in the history of Confuciousness because we hear in certain schools of Confuciousness, and we do see the principle of esotericism elaborated in a way that invites comparison with the principle of esotericism that Shrall's explained.

And both of them are actually quite controversial for various reasons. So in the later part of this podcast, I'm going to explain how esotericism was expounded by certain schools of Confuciousness in, and why that might be controversial. So those are my recommendations for why we should take an interest in Confuciousness. Very good.

So, practical reason and a philosophical reason. Very good. So how about, who has Confuciousness then? I mean, a lot of our folks has always mentioned that have no idea.

So just what would you say to someone who has no idea who Confuciousness was before we get into them were esoteric presentations. So Confuciousness, the name, this is the name that most Westerners know about for interesting reasons. It has become quite a popular household name. I guess most Americans would have learned about the name in their world history.

You know, classes taken either in middle school or high school. Now Confuciousness is actually a Latin-ized name, which was invented by the Jesuits in the late 16th century when they first arrived in China. They heard about this man, who is in Chinese, is called Confuciousness and they transformed into Confuciousness in Latin. And every since then that name has stuck in Western literature.

And now Confuciousness or Confuciousness was born in 551 BC, according to general consensus. And that happened to be just quite interesting to observe that Socrates, the most influential philosopher in the West, was born in the same century as Confuciousness. And people have picked up on this fact to emphasize how it's remarkable these sort of cultural, world-historical personages were born around the same era. And they gave various explanations for this phenomenon.

Have you heard of the concept of the Axuage by any chance there's a famous person called Jasper Gaspers? Yeah, but you should explain for the folks at home because they probably haven't heard of it. Yeah, so you can ask me was the general philosopher of the 20th century, he wrote a lot of cross-culture dialogues with a view to discovering common grounds between cultures. And he also wrote about Confuciousness.

And he was one who coined the concept of the Axuage to account for the amazing fact that all the most, the world-historical figures who laid the foundation for the intellectual traditions in East and West were born in roughly the same period, which he called the actual period. The name Axuage, I think implies the notion of revolution, right? They sort of turned the whole trajectory of civilization in a new direction. The axis was sort of changed as a result of those individual's achievement.

So Jasper's emphasized that Confuciousness and Socrates had much in common. Of course, that's just so comparison by the way, it's not original to Jasper's. The Jesuits were already the ones who proposed this comparison when they first encountered Confuciousness during the years. And during the 17th century.

Anyway, so Confucious was born in the sixth century, and he was born, unfortunately, into a time of chaos. When Confucious was growing up, the old political order of China, which was at the time ruled by the so-called Zhou dynasty, was, that order was falling apart. And Confucious grew up, witnessing all kinds of chaos in the land, and he decided to take on the mission of reforming the world that he knew, which was in a state of chaos and disorder. So then, when he became adult, he began embarking on a career as a teacher and government official.

He sought service in the courts of many dukes. So by the time the Zhou dynasty was based on a system of feudalism, where there was an emperor or king, under him, there were many dukes who ruled different domains, which also are sometimes translated as states. So these dukes, you can say, were subordinate to the king, but they have a relatively high degree of autonomy. So Confucious himself was born into the state of Lu, which is now today in the Shandong province of China.

And throughout his life, Confucious traveled through various domains under the Zhou king in order to seek employment with these rulers. And he, however, very did not, was not successful in persuading the rulers of the time to use him as a political advisor. So he was not really, I guess, practically, pragmatically successful in his lifetime. And at some point, late in his life, most scholars say around the age of 50, Confucious realized that the situation, the political situation of his time was hopeless.

So he gave up, you know, you can say he quit it political life and went back to his home in the state of Lu, in order to devote his life to teaching disciples, and also, which is a purpose of an important event. Confucious spent the rest of his life editing ancient books that were transmitted from older times, and these can be called classics. Sometimes you might see the translation canons. In fact, I prefer the term canon as a translation of the materials that Confucious edited, and I will explain that very soon.

In any case, Confucious spent the rest of his life teaching and editing canons, and with the expectation that his disciples will carry on his legacy and pass on his teachings to let a generation and finally he died in 479. So that's, I just gave you a question of this or Confucious life, and it's important to keep the political sort of chaos of his time in mind because that's very important for understanding the analytics, because the analytics was compiled after Confucious death by his disciples and consisted of his teachings and sayings, but many of those materials are directly reflective of the political situation of China during that period. Do we have his canons that you mentioned? I'm going to explain what those canons are.

Do we have them there, excellent? They're excellent. Of course, they're very torturous and complicated process transmission, which is the main controversy. As we know, all ancient texts suffered from this problem, right?

People, some sort of nitpicky, nitpicky scholars will keep arguing about the authenticity of certain parts and reject others as as Speria. So this same problem happens with regard to the confusion canons. But so now I'm just saying a little about the sources information we have on Confucious life. The analytics is a multi-portal.

Right from the analytics, we do have a glimpse of many episodes in Confucious life. We can form a rough picture of the man's personality. And yes, and are many explicit references to the historical events in Confucious life time. That's why that's, but that's why the analytics is only one of the sources.

We don't have too many sources on Confucious life. From the extent sources scholars are able to piece together a picture or an account of Confucious life, which became very important, as we know. Just so in this regard, it's like, you know, the gospel is how they are, you know, assembled together after Jesus dead, and then they really play important part in the development of Christianity's in the same way Confucious life became a cornerstone of the tradition that can be associated with him. Now, besides the analytics, we have three other works, and I'm just going to mention their titles.

One is called the Records of the Grand Historian, which is written by a historical person called so much and that who lived in a second. So, who lived in a second century BCE, which is already, you can say, 500 years or 600 years after Confucious time, right? So, then there was a book called the commentary on the spring and autumn animals. Again, I'm not going to talk about the content of the book.

Basically, you have that book gives you a account, another history of China in Confucious time. In a book, we have various descriptions of Confucious action and a record of his saying. So from these, we're able to gather also many clues about Confucious life and career. So we have these sources that tell us about Confucious life, but now I'm going to talk about his influence in later dynasties, which is really what we should take into account when we talk about Confucious teaching, because there's not just one set of teaching, or there is one set of teaching, but they're interpreted very differently throughout different time periods.

So, if we talk about the Confucious teaching, most scholars, many scholars even feel what jump at us, right? We say that there's just one Confucious teaching. There's so many schools and so many methodologies at work in the understanding of the Confuciousing Cannons. That's something I noticed while I was reading, you sent us some particularly a note where the bits of text, but each one was coupled with a bit of commentary to explain certain terms and give some background on interpretations.

But one thing you could tell immediately from reading those is that there's a very long tradition of interpretation and debate, and you get the sense there are many schools, and even the way they refer to it, it's like the third century commentary commentator says this, but whatever this scholar from 20 years ago says that, and it's interesting that there's such a longer reminds you so much a Plato where sometimes you find yourself in conversation with croqueless or whoever it is, whatever medieval Renaissance modern commentator there might be. And I think another help for analogy for Western readers is, well, the history of Christianity really, how they're different schools, I want to use schools about sex of Christianity, right? After its inception. And the most important division of sex that we know today is between Protestantism and Catholicism, and one is, you know, you have Calvin Luther on what side, and you have, you know, Aquinas on the other hand, you have different authorities on sided by different people, according to their standpoint, likewise, it's the same of the indigenousism you have a list of latter day authorities associated with interpretation, confusionism and people, well, you know, the allegiance will differ according to one's standpoint.

So I'm just right now going to give you just very quick summary of the legacy confusion in later dynasties so there are, I divide the history into four stages, just for the sake of convenience to help just get a picture of the complicated evolution of confusion in China's intellectual history. And we have, we have a vision himself and his followers after his death, and that now they made the first effort to, to sort of found the tradition centering around the candidate. They lay down the basic turns and concepts for understanding the teaching. But it's important to know here that Confucius did not claim to be the founder, he himself did not claim to be the founder of the tradition.

Confucius, in fact, refer to the kings before him as his source as his model. I think this is important to you by because the word Confucius in the Western sort of context might suggest that Confucius is a founder of that tradition. So he sort of single handedly shaped the whole tradition, but that seems to be misleading in light of Confucius's own statements where he says, I'm simply, I'm not an innovator so this very famous statement in the way that he refuses to be called an innovator. I'm simply transmitting the ways of the old by which he means the wisdom of the so-called ancient kings of China.

So I'm going to talk about that more later. But so I think the word Confucius is then, by the way, which is also a invention of the Jesuit, when they first encountered the tradition, is a kind of a misnomer because it doesn't seem to reflect the complexity of the identity of Confucius as known by the Chinese themselves throughout history. So I'm going to speak more of that later. So that's the first stage when you have Confucius and his disciples forming the tradition.

Now, come to the second stage happened about centuries after Confucius. So Confucius, as I said, living in a time of chaos when China, the whole jotanist was falling apart. And eventually that chaos became even more intense when all the rulers began to declare themselves king and refuse and over and rejected the whole legitimacy of the joking. So then China entering into a period called the warring states period.

In short, we have to understand that China became more chaotic and there was no more central authority governing the whole land after Confucius is death. Or some generations after Confucius death, there was a trying to enter into a period called the warring states period. This is when, well, you can say you have this sort of chaotic scene among these states competing for power without the slightest regard for any international norm in our contemporary sense. This is the very disastrous situation which was ended only by the, well, the effort of one ruler, his name is the first, well, he's in the West, he's known the first emperor of China.

You guys know about this person, the first emperor of China. So he's one who unified all the states or change, right? He's the first emperor that unified the stage. And he defeated all the other powers in the warring states period.

So now he's the one ruling everyone, one person, ruling everyone. But he actually was not in favor of Confucius teaching. And in fact, he was responsible for one of the most consequential events in history Confucius and the burning of books. So the first emperor decided that he should wipe out the all the memories of the past which were detrimental to the legitimacy of his dynasty.

So he ordered that all the old books that were preserved by the Confucius be burned. And that is a result of the whole tradition suffered a great setback. And thankfully for the Confucius that dynasty didn't last very long, because then about 50 years down the line, it rebelled and occurred which led to the overthrow of his dynasty eventually a new dynasty was founded which proved to be very favorable to Confucius and now as a dynasty that's most important for understanding the development The Han Han dynasty lasted quite a long time and lasted for centuries. This is between the year so 220 BC to 220 AD.

So about 400 years. And this is when the crux of the Confucius tradition, you can say crystallized and also the canonization of the text occurred. So just similar to how the poor text Christianity will form after the Nician Council. So in China, you have a similar development involving the canonization of text and Confucius was then treated as a authority as a supreme authority.

So this is again reminds of the difference between Confucius and the typical Western philosopher. The typical Western philosopher is someone who argues and challenges and questions. Confucius, very early on in the history of China, was you can say elevated to the status of a closest term I think to, yes, a question. I was just going to say you've already mentioned this couple times the ways in which Confucianism is like Christianity or history is similar.

And you know I remember some of my first introductions to this was that it was religion. So you draw contrast between Confucius and say Plato on one hand to them Christianity on the other, both are helpful and useful. I was just wondering what you would say someone who pushed you on that. It's easy to push this brings to the question of the interpretation of the nature of Confucius.

This is a very complicated story which I refuse to enter. You can see the simplicity. And I will because again, it really hinges on your personal understanding of the meaning of these buzzwords like philosophy, religion, etc. And, you know, someone say Confucianism is a religion, someone say this is a philosophy and you know people who make different claims based on their own personal understanding.

Now I'm going to in this connection I did plan to refer to two famous instances in Western history where philosophers try to interpret Confucianism according to their framework. One is Hegel. And so I was thinking about the philosophy of history, they tried to engage with Confucius by giving interpretation of its nature. And he called he regarded as philosophy but then he regarded as very superficial philosophy.

I read to you, he goes commentary. That's what he says, I have to be I've to quote it exactly because all those angry higgians will come out. So, I can tell you the Chinese teaching the teaching of Confucius made a great sensation in the time of lightness. That was that was the 17th century.

This teaching is a moral philosophy. That's what Hegel says. Confucius has commented on the principles of Chinese is more teaching giving great fame. You know, initially he gave you a positive remark with any constant negative.

Confucius, we have conversations between confusion and his followers in which there's nothing definite further than a commonplace moral put in the form of good sound doctrine, which may be found as well expressed and better in every place amongst every people. And then the literal give us on duties of work or moral teaching more comprehensive and better than all the books Confucius. His hands only a man who has a certain amount of practical worldly wisdom, one with whom there is no speculative philosophy. We may conclude from his original work that for their reputation would have been better, had they never been translated.

Okay, so I'm going to give you sort of a goes take down. But that's a form his point of view, recognition is a philosophy, but it has very superficial elements, again superficial from the standpoint of Hegel because he would come in the other thing superficial, not just my right Confucius. So now I'm going to quote from the yourself's persecution of the other writing just to give us a understanding of how difficult it is to categorize confusions and using these conventional categories like philosophy religion. Charles, when the beginning of his discussion of hello the law of reason says the following, every student of the philosophy assumes to actually or expressly rightly or wrongly that he knows what philosophy is or what a philosopher is attempting to transform the necessarily confused notion with which one starts to bring out the fact that the notion of philosophy is subject to very deep problems that are very hard to unravel unless one engages with a variety of deep fingers.

And the problem is most people who try to discuss Confucius and being Western academia generally lack that kind of complicated training or familiarity with the great text. They therefore, usually, unreflectively employ a concept of philosophy of religion without being necessarily aware of the all the nuances they involve. So that's not going to go back to the development of Confucius because, okay, so I mentioned how the text before the canonized now comes the two later stages which are important to know for understanding what how Confucius is going right now. The third stage we're talking about is happened in the from 962 to 1279 AD, and that this is a new dynasty has come into being and that's called the son dynasty.

So, there's a new tradition where the so called neo Confucian tradition came into being now neo Confucian is the turn you would run across in the relevant literature on Confucianism neo Confucianism right now name implies that it's a new trend or new paradigm for understanding the tradition. This tradition is to this day the most influential paradigm on Confucianism in both in China and outside of China in American academia. I say this because if you read the conventional depictions of Confucian and by scholars, not just Chinese, but also American. So, I'm going to tell the influences on neo Confucian at work so again to help us grasp this the this phenomenon I think it's advisable to use the analogy of Platonism.

Let me just well the word the word neo Confucianism or your mind of a reminds of neo Platonism I would make this generalization that for a very long time in the West it's neo Platonism that helps sway over the interpretation of Plato. By that I mean the the paradigm that was founded largely by people like Platonists and Proclus and then they don't by August, you know, reinforced by Augusting and others that really dominated the understanding of Plato all the way up to the 20th century. And of course we know the old street house was rather notorious for giving a count of Platonism that the evidence in essential respects from that paradigm. So, I know I know where this is building, guys, you're about to give us the esoteric reading of Confucianism and you were the Strauss of Confucian studies.

Is this where we're going? I think you may send me yes yes, I want me to move. But let's hear it. Hold on, can I just one small quick can I so I'm going to lay out the non esoteric reading this best I can I've read Confucianism a little bit I'm not my known expert.

I don't mean to sound too much like Hegel but you should more or less listen to your parents you should be a decent upstanding citizen. You should do your duties. Yeah, it's moral teachings and those moral teachings are more or less I'll state it somewhat baldly just to see if we can push push the esoteric reading out. I'm a student of Zenefan right and so I think that Zenefan I think the conventional reading of Zenefan for a long time is that Socrates was just this moralist who didn't really have anything interesting to say.

He says fall to law and memorabilia he should always fall to law he should always do it tomorrow eat your vegetables even right. And so there's nothing interesting going on and if I were to sort of try to sort of maybe present a parody of my understanding Confucianism would be that sort of obedience to authority. And yes, and I would character that understanding as the exoteric teaching which is which he would like to encourage in the majority of his audience who are responsible for maintaining order in the regime. And you can plan for evidence for that understanding throughout the Confucian canons.

Again that's the exoteric now I'm going to make the thesis and again I stress that I'm not the first to make this thesis I have predecessors in the Chinese tradition who have already advanced that thesis that there is a again two layers of teaching in the whole canon. There is the exoteric or I would say public layer public teaching there's the esoteric or the philosophic layer, but now to come back to new Confucianism this is the dominant tradition that really helps way and this is the tradition that really rejects the distinction of layers. Now there's not such distinction in your Confucianism and new Confucianism is also known for again explaining the concepts of virtue and duty in very metaphysical terms, just like well plot in this or proclers right then when they discuss these, let's say take plot in this, he discusses the as intellectual virtue, there's no such thing as a distinction between political virtue and intellectual virtue as far as I understand in the plumbness or the, or the sort of the gap between the two has become very obscure. To come back to your Confucianism the same, I think characterisation may apply on these those commentators were responsible for this paradigm didn't really acknowledge any necessity to distinguish the layers of teaching in Confucianism.

Okay, so now that's the dominant teaching now this is the third stage and the fourth stage is what's happening right now in Chinese academia. So this is after the Western teachings began were introduced to China Western philosophy was introduced to China as well as Western religion, and you have a school of Chinese thinkers who tried to synthesise to Confucianism with various Western philosophies. Now that in happens that the Western philosophy that things will about are all to put a generally modern or post 18th century right so they generally took into account German idealism as a element of synthesis so they would like to combine the people in the fourth stage which were born after the 20th century, they prefer to use con to explain Confucianism. So now I'm managing the fourth stage because when you read about Confucianism right now in, you know, famous literature that's the thing you're likely encountered reading a Confucian of Confucianism as somehow in being compatible with con.

So that's I some mention to all the forces of, you know, Confucianism, apparently right the esoteric teaching was mostly ignored or underground throughout the history. Now I mentioned I are a predecessor right in the Chinese tradition who did speak of esotericism. These are mostly found in the first stage during the Han dynasty that was the third century BC who, those who recognised the dimension of sort of esoteric teaching Confucianism, but their viewpoint was not carried on later on issues. This understanding was quickly forgotten and it was not until very late in Chinese history that this sort of paradigm was resurrected by certain scholars and I'm going to not be mentioned their names but the point is, you know, the esoteric element was not, I did not like discovered this only because I knew about the old shouts is discussion of esotericism is after I sort of took into account the factor of esotericism in the West and I look back at the Chinese tradition and realize well there is actually affinity between the two strands of thought yes.

This is a point that Arthur Meltzer makes really well in his book philosophy between the lines where he argues actually most cultures have a history of guarded speech of one kind or another if not of outright esotericism in fact it's only modern Western culture and light in the enlightenment that you get something like this denial and it's and so I'll just you give us a bunch to vote. Let me read a couple that really seem to speak this in 621 he says the master said you can speak about higher matters to those who are above the middle in intelligence but not to those who are below the middle in intelligence. Or the common people can't this is 8, 9, the common people can be made to follow a course of action but they cannot be made to understand the reasons for doing it and when you read something like that it almost sounds like a verily or something talking about the law and and the law is analogous to demonstrations but you can't really go into that with the average person. The reasons need to be guarded and therefore has to take on the same esoteric.

Exactly. So why are we at it let's go to the end and just discuss the key passages where I argue there is evidence for esotericism and now you're mentioned just two of them. But first let me just just talk about again the depiction of confusion sort of I would say omniscientism use that words in the analytics. It's in order to again convey the notion that here we have again the presentation of officials as a authority to follow instead of someone that you can argue with.

Now the question is still right how do you understand the wisdom of his authority and that's this is the source of the endless controversy among other day Confucianists right they try to understand the meaning of the master but you know they became. They fell into sort of divisions based on their own understanding of what the master meant you have the passage so let's take a look at nine. How do you say this chapter nine right verse to chapter nine. I'm sorry book nine chapter two that's how it should be said so in book nine chapter two you have the statement a villager from Dajan said how great is Confucian she's vastly learned has not made a name for himself in any particular area.

So the commentary I follow right says this is a description of conflict is again vast wisdom that encompasses because they almost all areas of human learning so it's misleading to use the conventional labels in the West now like think they're a philosopher to characterize Confucian he seems to be omniscient. And the task of the interpret it interpreter to is to again understand his his sort of the grounds of his omniscient right how do we make sense of that. But that seems the question is of course a very difficult one. Now let's look at the book nine chapter nine.

So book nine chapter nine. It says the master said the Phoenix has not been seen no charge has emerged from the river it is the end of me is it not. So it's a very difficult story that is introduced to somehow explain Confucian's career right Confucian is now depicted someone who is in communion with a mythical creature. By the way many letter the commentators calling to question the possibility of this depiction.

You can say that this sort of mythical area around Confucian is meant to again create the great authority right to be someone that you should simply follow without much questioning. So, I'm going to say that the exoteric layer that I mentioned right here he's you have this post during the authority that is serves to ensure obedience to the commands or the laws of the regime. So, and that's why today most people are in a state of most Chinese most Chinese no confusion has just a figure who imposes authority is known as the icon of you can say tradition in tradition in the sense of you know laws to obey that in one's life. So, you should understand why the argument of Confucian contains a that's what you're teaching would be deemed as outrageous you know both in pre modern and modern China.

Yes. So, I persuaded that he persuaded what you just said that's very helpful and then in book seven chapter 21. I have the topics the master did not speak about where prodigies forced disorder in the gods. And so I guess one question I would press here is I think it I take it for granted that all kinds of people and you know as Alex mentioned.

And then I think about all kinds of ways that people practice careful writing and careful speech. But what is the thing so if if the sort of obedience authority is exo tearing teaching. What is the esoteric teaching what is he talking about he says he doesn't talk about the gods. Does he think about the gods and does he give us his indications as to what his thoughts about the gods might be somehow carefully or ontology what are the you know Hegel says he doesn't talk about speculative philosophy is it is it kind of like Socrates that he wouldn't talk publicly about these things but he would try to teach about them somehow.

What are the things that he's talking about us so terribly. Right so there are two there are two things right what are the things he wants to hide from the public right what things that he wants to hide from and of average intelligence the range of matters that are involved. So let's just take a look at the relevant passages. So let's go to chapter book five chapter 13 so you have a disciple called ego and he said one can get to learn about the masters accomplishments in literature in the culture tradition but not his views on human nature in the way of heaven.

So the clear boundary between two range of subjects one strange one range of subject belongs to the everyday the mundane the commonplace which you see by for example he's on the phone although it's objects every day the other are the esoteric the recom died subjects about human nature whether it's good or evil what is the made up of and the way of heaven which is a technical term in confusion literature that denotes entire range of again obscure phenomenon including ghost and spirit and you can even translate spirit that's God the character for spirit is often translated as God in the literature so you have a boundary between two dimensions of being and apparently confusion doesn't want to speak on the second dimension before the average audience. Now let's go to book two six chapter 22 you have another disciple from chief he asked about wisdom the master said work for what is appropriate and writing human relationship show respect to the gods and spirits while keeping the meta distances can be called wisdom. Okay so here the difficulty is right the there is ambiguity about the term wisdom because listening can refer to many different kinds of activities you can have practical wisdom you know intellectual wisdom. And I think that distinction is also existing existing Chinese the disciple he asked about wisdom but of course it's not clear yet what he said to be wisdom now the master you might think because one way to answer the question is to discuss the nature of the gods what are the ghost spirits the quick they are quite a deal what is the critical ghost and spirit.

The vision didn't answer that division to tell him about to observe the customs use of customs about the gods and you know and keep them at a distance meaning you don't want to pry into their secrets. This is called wisdom but I just still you know raise the question all right can there be a wisdom about the nature the quality of the gods experience. Okay now let's also look at before we move on I just had one follow up here I was also you know again this is all very new to me but I was also wondering just like in Zenfins memorabilia. Sargati speaks to different characters and I think that too often scholars who are not sort of sensitive to esoteric writing are inclined to take anything Socrates says it face value and not pay particular attention to the person with whom Socrates is speaking.

And so this passage you just read I wondered if that was a message that was tailored to this gentleman who asked the question fun she I don't pronounce it right but so I wonder if I'm going to look at somebody and think that he might be an astro-taker writer one thing he might do is say different things to different disciples so I want to jump into yeah and that means you sometimes notice contradictions between right. This is a good example that I thought I'd be telling you from on the wrong track I show because you know obviously I'm doing this as well but there's an interesting passage I think is the last one that you gave us regarding morning whereas I will ask about the three year saying a year is already too long if a gentleman neglects the non-morning rights for three years those rights will be in ruins if you did not allow himself to perform music will be done doing the music in the course of the year is the old grain has been used up new grain right before us and so and Confucius's result was look your parents sustained you for at least three years when you were young conversely why don't you do the same for your parents but then if you go to a completely different one three four he says with regard to the rights as a whole it is better to air on the side of being frugal than on that of being extravagant with regard to morning rights it's better to air on the side of showing too much emotion than on that of fussing over every detail I don't know the Chinese but when I see the word air I think well it's still a mistake I mean so yeah he's encouraging this person to mourn for three years in another place he says yeah you should do that but it might be an error right this isn't a firmly grounded viewpoint at least that I'm offering there and he's self-awarely right offering a viewpoint that he's not confident in or themes in error so according to my esoteric paradigm for reading the analytics the analytics fall of these intimations that were only gleaned from a very intense reading based on the consideration of the context and the character of the audience for example so this of course comes back to the question what exactly does he try to conceal from the motor to from the public I think it's the principle of legislation like what are the basis for the normals in that regime that Confucius tries to build he wants to quote if you're my reading he wants to bring about a change of the normals but he does he wants to do it in a way that makes most people inattentive to the change he doesn't want people to be alert to the fact that normals has been changed by him through his personal agency you know what I'm just just one small point for the photo no most so law right not all of our audience reads Greek but so he's changing the law the law of the country now we use normals instead of law because law enormous in Greek covers of vast range of phenomenon much more than English were today so to give example let's go to 10 book can I check your age okay so this is a passage where he talks about Confucius habit of eating rice and cutting meat this whole chapter this whole book by the way is about computer exemplary actions but which are I think I'm meant to serve as the guideline for legislation how should the later generation behave is recorded in this book right so even small details like the eating of meat is given prescription in this book so this is an example of normal but not more people today wouldn't associate eating meat right so that's why it's better perhaps to think involved the word of the Greek concept of normals when we talk about Confucius's sort of intention his intention in my reading of the as a tag reading of the analytics is to change the normals of law of the regime without making the public aware that a change has been taking place and he does this and he did it by appealing to the authority of the Asians while disguising his own role in innovation that's how I would characterize this secret intention but now let's go to give more evidence for this claim right so you have let's go to book to chapter 24 and then we'll go to book to chapter 23 Z John said can we know what things will be like 10 generations from now the master said the in fall of the rights of the show and what was added and subtracted can be known the Joe follow the rights of the ink and what was added and subtracted can be known whoever succeeds the Joe even a hundred generations from now will be able to know what was added and subtracted from the rights of the Joe the implicit he disclaimed is a well implicit in this statement is a claim of having a sort of legislative wisdom about what is fitting for human life that will has it can say the character of permanence right he can he knows what is fitting for human life for all time not just for one period one diagnostic period this is something very grand and it is grand claim and you find the same claim made in the book 15 chapter 11 another disciple asked about how to govern the state and the master said follow the calendar of the Shadd dynasty writing the carriage of the shell where the ceremonial cap of the Joe okay so you have a reference to very the customs the normals of various dynasties but I think the under the message the other message is that I can fish is have the right to legislate using my own wisdom about what is fitting taking elements from different dynasties to you know in my sort of consideration now but the conflict doesn't want to make public this kind of knowledge again that's because you think about again what kind of knowledge is involved in the legislative normal one what to have have a knowledge of the spirits right because the sacrifices all these customs are integral part of the law but in order to legislate concerning these matters one would have to possess a knowledge of these beings of the spirits and the spirits of those who are dead and the gods and all that but confusions of one his typical audience to be interested in that right he doesn't he's sort of public teaching is precisely as we said aimed at inculcating obedience or sort of to the law to the normal to the law but he's secret teaching again points to the knowledge of these these obscure beings that are mentioned in the analytics and elsewhere now you asked right where do we find direct evidence of confusion is speculative wisdom the ad like doesn't have that yes admittedly and if you only read the analytics okay go naturally you would arrive at that conclusion because a good doesn't have access to other parts of the confusion canon but when we turn to other parts that you have much more because it's speculative content which I cannot of course explain well here since I assume most people only know about the but you really want to understand the confusion is teaching a whole one would have to again consult these other parts of the confusion canons that I think more explicitly address the question for example of what is a divine or what is a spirit and these are belong to the because it's a speculative component of the canon very cool there's an interesting passage you gave us which is almost like a mini dialogue though much more confused as much more reserved and speaking than the others but it's we don't want to go through the whole thing we don't really have much time up but it's for young people and Confucius says just because I'm a little older than you are don't let that stop you from speaking your mind you've often said no one understands you someone did understand you and appreciate you what would you do that and so the four of them speak in turn the first we want some kind of rule and Confucius smiles in response to the first guy and the second two he just moves on to the second one he goes on to the third after third one he goes on to the fourth and the fourth guy is playing his zither and says now he's playing was coming to the end with the last notes still vibrating in the wind he put down his instrument stood up and said what I would like to do is different from what we have just heard from these three and Confucius says there's no harm in that we're telling each other what's on your mind the other guy responds in late spring when the spring closed have just been made with five or six years ago and the other guy responds to the third guy who's on the side of the third guy who's on the third side of the third guy who's on the third guy who's on the third guy who's on the third guy who's on the ecla and a man in six or seven young boys I would like to golets beginning the river east and enjoy the breeze at the rain prayer altar and then ni and still courage in my people. A good thing, but very difficult to do. And so he's smiling at the hubris, he had also encouraging him.

But it seems like really for his own private life, it's something like friendship, pleasure, music, and pleasant atmosphere, right? It's very, I mean, it's extremely special reason. I chose that passage, connection with our theme of esotericism. The commentator, I respect it the most in the tradition identified the traits of esotericism in the response of the last person.

Yeah, according to that commentator, I think he is trying to convey the notion that it is time for to bring about a change of normals in the nation, that because that the old way cannot be continued further, and that we must now do a complete reform of the laws. So as to again, bring about a better condition for the community. Now you ask, what is the direct evidence for that? There is not any explicit evidence, right?

When I have to again, taking into account the context, the political context of Confucius's time, right? It's not, they're not just making this sort of conversation at random. Every part has some, well, to Benadetti's phrase, logographical necessity, right? They didn't just talk about that for sheer pleasure.

There is a political intention underlying this kind of lighthearted banter. Likewise, there's also exchange between Confucius and disciple about whether the music should be, or precisely that dialogue between the way we just talked about, right? Three years of mourning, should that be kept or not? And the disciple proposed an objection, which is an answer by the master, but many people think that this passage is recorded to show that the Confucius disapproves of the disciple.

Well, I don't think that's its main intention. The main intention is to teach a lesson about the problem associated with changing the law, right, changing the custom. There are these kind of complicated sort of issues involved. When you try to think about why you should change a existing law, so that's my reading of that episode, right?

It teaches you a lesson about the dangers to changing the law, the old law. But there, again, Confucius is still hints that the law should be changed when there's necessity, because that's why he makes all the comments about the three dynasties and how he takes in account of all their variations. On the other hand, we have direct evidence where we have passage where Confucius denied that he is innovator. So you have, you know, book seven, chapter one, the master said, I transmit, but you're not innovated.

I live in antiquity, but I faith in it. So this is often cited by people who deny that Confucius has a esoteric layer, right? That's what the point, you wanna look, that's what the master says, right? I'm just, well, it's transmitting.

Well, that's the way we can see the simple straightforward reading, but if you think through, right, you can try to submit something while still, you know, creating your own wisdom to the transformation, right? So you're not actually trying to submit, you have to understand what's being transmitted. And that, the understanding can vary according to intelligent. You can simply be a copyist and write whatever is written by the person, right, that you want to transmit.

But you can also be intelligent transmitted by understanding the secret intention of the authorities you transmit. You can also be selective. You can be selective in what you transmitted. A tradition is very rich and over full with things and certain things come to the fore and certain things fall to the vaches necessarily.

But you can be the person that selects those bits. And so when he talks about selecting this and selecting that, you assume that he has, you know, as a wise man, he has good reasons for stuff, but he doesn't give you the reasons. He just tells you. He doesn't give you the reason.

He hints that he doesn't want most people to be sensitive to his action of innovation, right? He did innovate, but he would prefer that the public remain unaware of that. And that's how that's the image of Confucius, which is popularly known to this day, right? He's the simply the one who carries down the tradition without trying to temper with it.

And so I think we need to talk about one more important thing, which is very relevant to, I think, the school of Australia, America. As we know, eventually people blame Strauss for things that he didn't have much, had little responsibility, like Iraq War, how certain people claimed to be Strauss, got involved in the war process. And then people thought, okay, Strauss must be responsible for that outcome in the Chinese history, in modern Chinese history, a similar episode happened where somebody claims that he has discovered the esoteric teaching Confucius and went on karyotic political movement that led it to a great disaster. And to this day, right, people still, whenever they hear Confucius' eso-terrorism, they instinctively, I'm trying to call scholars, link it with that notorious figure.

His name is Kanye O'way. But I see a parallel between the two instances, right? You have, again, the active attempt by people to apply this academic insight directly to politics, right in the case of Iraq War, I certain people claim to be inspired by Strauss, and their understanding of Strauss, and justify their role policy on that basis. Now, in the same way, we have, we found that this reformer in Chinese history is performing this notorious act in the name of the eso-terrorism Confucius.

And to this day, the claim of eso-terrorism is very much tainted with the memory of that incident. So I just want to- What was his name again? What was his name again? Confucius?

Confucius? Yes, just to do that. Yeah, that was great. Yeah, that was great.

It shows you the degree to which these problems are perennial. Yeah, and it's very informative to have learned from you today. And I don't know, you should write something on this, putting this all together, because I think this is very valuable and would be of a lot of interest. And I would love to read a sort of thorough and scholarly analysis.

But yeah, I don't know, I'll join the others in saying thank you, guys, Joe. This is really, really like a just nice sitting here and learning from you. Yeah, thank you, guys, pleasure. My pleasure.

Yes. Thanks for coming. Folks at home, don't forget to like, rate, and subscribe. We'll see you next week on the new Think Great.

Thanks so much.