Sit down, grab your popcorn because this is going to be one of the craziest stories you've ever heard. We're diving deep into a $1 million plus scam pull off by one of the biggest Instagram accounts in the store's heart. Good, good, good, good. Hello and here we go.
Welcome to a special edition episode of The Jeff Wilson Show. I am in studio today and I'm about to bring Darren Roval from the Action Network on because Darren has been following this story from the beginning and the twists and turns. This story has taken our unbelievable. We are talking about a potentially seven-figure scam, an elaborate, elaborate scheme that was set up and it was one of potentially many scams which are now being unfolded by Darren and others across the sports heart hobby and the wildest thing about all of it was that the whole thing was orchestrated by the guy behind one of the most followed Instagram accounts in the hobby called Card Porn.
This entire thing is insane. It's probably going to be the craziest hobby story you've ever heard. And even if you've heard a little bit about the story, you're going to want to listen to this entire interview because you're going to hear details today that haven't even been discussed before. Wait all the way till the end of this interview because of the very end.
Darren reveals some details about one of the later scams which the story will put chills down your spine. So let's go ahead and get started. I'm bringing in Darren now. Darren, welcome back to the show.
Is this the craziest story like this that you've ever followed in all of your years of reporting on sports memorabilia? On sports memorabilia, Jeff, definitely. I mean, the twists and turns of this story are beyond unexpected. It's just, you know, there's very few stories that I've had over the years where I literally cannot believe how it unfolds.
And just the way everything went down here in the way it did just, I still don't believe it. It is wild to believe and what I want to do today is kind of take our audience through the full story. I'm sure a lot of the audience has heard bits and pieces of this, but the way the entire story unfolded is fascinating. And it started with this issue with a jersey being photo matched and some collectors coming out and saying, wait a minute.
And this was well before we ever knew that Card Porne was potentially ever involved or behind all of this. You were reporting on that jersey story from the very beginning. Tell us what happened there, when you heard about that, what you learned and what, take us through that piece of it. So what happened was a jersey was purchased from Grae Flannel in June.
That jersey was a Michael Jordan game used jersey said to be a Michael Jordan game used jersey. It was attempted actually to be photo matched by the consignor who bought it in November from Grae Flannel and my great turned it back and said, we don't have a match. So this is a jersey so Grae Flannel obviously is an auction house. So this consignor bought it, attempted a photo match, it got rejected.
They're claiming it's game use. But what was the actual evidence or proof that they were pointing to what they weren't able to get a photo match? So the only game used evidence was as it was sold and I later learned this because if you looked in the auction description, you would find that there's a 1996 letter from Grae Flannel saying that it's game used. That was pretty much it.
Now what's interesting is the obviously the standards to buy which you said something was game used in 1996 is totally different. And Grae Flannel owns a piece of a photo matching company. So I think that's why it sold for what it did. I don't remember what it sold for November, but then it sells for 26,700.
In June. And to me, that means you might believe it's game use. Given the prices on where things are, 26,000 for Jordan, Jersey is like, okay, not really sure here. I mean, anything that's Jordan, especially since there wasn't anything from that season, you know, you would think it would be at least 125,000 in this market.
So I believe that both people probably believe that it might have not been game used. Yeah. So someone decided to take a chance on it and see if they could get a photo match or something of that nature. But this, so this time around, somebody buys it for $27,000 and they apparently see an angle or an opportunity to force it to perhaps be authenticated.
So what happens next? Now, to be fair, there are photos that don't. So the reason why my Grae rejected it wasn't that they didn't say like there's no way this is possible. They just didn't have a photo, which happens.
I mean, that does happen. I will also say that people do present to my Grae or photo matching companies. Here is some evidence. I've seen it.
Let me show it to you. It's an unpublished photo and that often comes from a photographer. So, you know, a photographer might have something. So you don't know and that photographer then who knows how it comes out, but maybe it does.
So the person who bought it goes to my Grae and says, hey, there are two photos that I have. I've obtained it from a foundation of a photographer who is there. Now, you could check that this guy, Tony Ramsey was taking photos at the Eastern Conference Finals in 1996. So you could figure that out, but there were a couple red flags early on for me.
And one of them was that a photographer would have a foundation. It's not easy to maintain a foundation, Jeff. I'm sure you know this. And it's not easy to maintain a photo archive.
The claim was that this photographer had a photo archive and in it were to never before published photos that showed that this jersey wasn't exact match. So, so the person then went to a migrate and said, here are the photos. Now, the way they presented the photos were actual photos and not slides. Migrate said later that it was that they had seen the slides.
Now, they had seen copies of the slides. Most people, when they hear copies of the slides, they think it's actually a slide, right? But it's a copy made of a physical slide. That was not the case.
It was a copy made of a picture of the slide, which. OK, so without enough detail. Yeah, so that's not something they can probably actually check with any accuracy. Yes, which is which is which is the which is an issue.
The slides would have been important, I assume, because those are going to be harder to fake, right? The photo, obviously, as we as the story goes on, we'll find out was photoshopped manipulated, but the slides are going to be a kind of the original evidence, you know, so to speak, and that's going to be harder to fake. Yes. So, all right.
So that's where we're at. And but what we know is Migrate then comes out and says there's a photo match. And Migrate believes it because there is they, you know, there is a foundation set up for this dead photographer, which they can go verify. The foundation has a staff, which is willing to email back and forth with them, which they can verify.
There's a website. There's a website. They can go look at the website for the foundation. We later find out all of this is fake.
But at that moment, the person the person bringing Migrate all of this information, they had taken several steps to actually set up what appeared to be a whole legitimate, you know, set of things that Migrate could go check to verify that all of this was real. And really that is like that takes the criminal activity here to a whole nother level because it's not just, Hey, I'm going to fake a photo and see if I can trick these guys. It's I'm going to set up in a labyrinth elaborate scheme to back up me faking a photo and taking it to these guys to trick them. Right.
And some people would say, well, what's the crime here? Well, it's identity theft. You're you're faking a dead per you're actually, yeah, there actually was a letter from the dead photographer at some point. So there's there's one.
There's that there's faking a foundation. There's just so many levels of misrepresentation. So there actually is a crime. There's there's identity theft.
There's there's a bunch of things here that don't match. And it was fully presented in person by this person who delivered it to Migrate with the jersey. And there was there was coordination and conversation between Migrate and this foundation. The person's name was allegedly Brittany.
And so my my thing was, let's go back. The reason I originally wrote the story is he just referenced Jeff was because there was a couple eagle eyed people in the industry, including people who collected a man in China specifically who collected game use stuff and said, wait a second. These two photos match, but there's other things that don't match. Now, usually you go back to photos, but in this case, he was talking about the video from games three and four of the 1996 Eastern Conference Finals where it was alleged there was a match.
And he's saying, wait a second, even on grainy video, you can see that this doesn't match up. The two and the three are different. The Jordan has a completely different arc on the back. Like so, so then became this question.
I think really for the first time ever, right? Can you photo match a jersey with a couple high quality pictures? If the rest of it doesn't match, and why doesn't it match? My gray was a pressure.
My gray was then under pressure. They then issued statement saying, this is possible. It is possible for our jersey here to photo match the pictures and the others might be inconclusive. Now, I'm not sure that's true in general because, you know, a lot of people talk about the mesh holes.
So the mesh holes are big enough in these jerseys to be able to help you with a photo match against the lettering. And yeah, so you're looking for the pattern. You're looking for the pattern of the little dots of the mesh and how those dots line up compared to the sewn on, you know, numbers and lettering on the jersey. And that kind of makes a jersey a one of one because no, no jersey has the exact same mesh pattern lining up with how everything was sewn on as another jersey does, right?
So that's kind of the clue with a lot of this photo magic. Right. So let me bring this back to lay people. No, this isn't getting done by fanatics and they're not making 500 of them at a time.
In this day and age back then, they're, you know, these are being individually sowed by people and it's not by machine. And that's kind of just how it works. Things have changed a little bit. But what's interesting is, even if you got a jersey back in the day, you could buy an official jersey.
I did. I have a bull's jersey from actually 1989 that says inside made exclusively for the Chicago Bulls, which by the way, that's why, you know, when you see these things and you say it's written in Sharpie and it says made for the Bulls back in the day, you could get like the official game issued kind of jerseys for like 200 hours, a lot of money, but it looked exactly the same. You could get the same shorts looked exactly the same, but it was not done in the same mass producing way that it's done today. So my great.
Yeah. So my great comes back and says it's possible and and there's yet another video saying no, it's not. Dr. Jack Ramsey is interviewing Jordan and the holes don't match up.
My great comes back doubles down and says, maybe the jerseys furled up or wrapped up. We don't really know, but they double down. Okay. So that was probably mistake number one by my great.
They maybe should have shown a little bit more caution at that point instead of just, you know, but of course they didn't, they didn't assume anything was wrong. Like they this was this was a very complicated scam. So they felt like they had done their due diligence. They felt like they had checked with this photographers foundation.
They had talked to someone at the foundation. Why would the foundation, you know, for any reason misrepresent this photo or fake this photo? They felt it came from a very legitimate source. Of course, they're going to later find out they were duped.
But I'm curious. Let me say this, Jeff. Let me say this. I think this is really important to say because a lot of people are saying, Oh my God, this is like, this is my gray.
This is going to hurt them. They're the gold standard. They have a relationship with the league. This is really going to hurt them.
No one can trust them anymore. And to be honest with you, I don't believe that because I think if they learn everything, anything, it's, you know, that they shouldn't come out with the arrogance and hubris that they did. But like the level of a scheme that this was, like you can't, they had never faced anything like that before, right? Like the scheming of the photographer, the foundation, the backup that I bought these photos, the fake person like at the end of the day, like I don't expect them to do the same amount of research that that I might do.
Now, I did this. The other part of this story, which is insane is I don't know if I would have asked. Now, there are a couple of things that I thought were a little weird. How would someone know that these photos existed?
How would that like, how would that process actually happen? Like did Tony Ramsey foundation come to the guy and say we have a match? Like they have to be in cahoots with each other in some way. And this photographer has been dead for 15 years.
So I don't, I'm just asking the question, how would it possibly come to light that non published photos hanging in a foundation of a dead photographer or node? So that was my only and I was like, okay, that's a little bit weird. And then you could use the phrase poke the bear, but someone poked the bear. Someone emailed me from the foundation in a very strange note, four pages long from this woman named Brittany, who is potentially this is after.
So you already do one article about this and you put it out on the action networks website about how this is strange. You're not, you're not reaching any conclusion at this point. You're just saying, my great photo match this. There's collectors that are saying this shouldn't be photo match.
There's any video evidence. The whole situation is just kind of weird. Right? That's what you've already done.
That's this point. Yes. And in it. So you put that out there in that first article, I did put that maybe Tony Ramsey got the dates wrong.
That may be in his archive. He got the dates wrong. And although there is a photo match here, maybe it's just photo match to the wrong game. The problem.
Yeah, which would be possible. That's plausible. Sure. The problem becomes that Jordan just didn't wear it.
There wasn't a jersey every other game that he wore, you know, just a few, right? Which is a reason why there's not a million of them out or any of them out from that season in fact. And so I, so the day goes by. And I don't see anything.
And then the next day I get an email that says, you didn't look at my email from yesterday. And it's copied like as if there's a law firm on it. And the email was like info at Tony Ramsey dot com. So I think it's a little bit strange that the lawyer was referencing.
It was contact at whatever lawyer. I would think that if a lawyer was part of this, the lawyer's actual email would be on there. It wouldn't be like a random, you know, contact. And I also thought it was weird that if there was an executive director of a foundation that they would they would have their name on it.
Right. Why would it be contacted? That's like an initial email you get when you start a website. So that was a little bit strange to me.
I missed you get you miss the first email from this. You go back and look at it from this Brittany lady, right? This is the same person from the foundation supposedly that my great. I didn't know that I didn't know that at the time.
So I did not know that my grace spoke to anyone. I then I actually then presented it to my brain. I was like, I'm not going to help them out because I said, did you talk to someone from the foundation? They said, yes.
And I said, did you talk on the phone? No, we emailed back and forth. Who was the person's name? Brittany.
Okay, Brittany. I got Brittany too. So that's how that's how that happened. But the email was this four page email that essentially showed that they're upset that I have besmirched the dead photographer with a foundation because, you know, he would have never, he would have never been careless enough to mismatch the dates of the photos.
And I'm like, this is so weird. It just found it just for me, it was like they're defending his honor. I understand that for a foundation, but it wouldn't seem to be to be the priority of some sort of director of a foundation to do this. And then they went here are like 15 photos and here's the order and it went on too long.
And I could never believe that that was some sort of person running a foundation. To me, it was a collector. It was the actual collector and it just did not seem right. So they shot themselves in the foot by actually emailing you, trying to defend their photo match, the authenticity of their photo match, which they, at that point, they didn't even have to do because my grade was still standing behind the photo match.
And if they had simply remained quiet, maybe the whole thing would have kind of filtered away, maybe, but they decided to go on the offensive, which by the way, we're going to learn, you know, later here that cardboard's involved in all of this. That has been Card Porns MO with their account, attack, attack, attack. And if somebody says we're wrong, attack harder. I had that personal experience with Card Porn when they came after me twice with completely made up things.
I very rationally went back to them. I presented evidence back to them. I had others present evidence back to them. And their response back was attack harder.
And you know what, it worked for them 99% of the time because people were scared. People were like, oh, you know, like a lot of people would get that email. You got Darren and go, geez, the lawyer was CC'd. You know, maybe I got this one wrong.
Maybe I should stop talking about it or back off it. But you didn't do that. Yeah, I mean, also the demands were something that didn't just just so one of the demands was to delete the entire article. And I have never done that in my career and would never do that because one, I mean, there was nothing wrong with the article.
I wouldn't delete it. And then there were several demands asked, such as, you know, saying, please say that the foundation said that, you know, there was no way that Tony Ramsey got this wrong and this and that. And, you know, so I sat there for 20 minutes. I spoke to my editor.
He agreed with me that it was ridiculous. And then I, and then I said, I want to speak to you live now on zoom. That's one of these things that, you know, I think maybe five years ago, you would have said, I want to see you on FaceTime. I wouldn't have done that.
But zoom now post COVID is something that is normal. And, you know, so I said, I want to see you on zoom. And then the immediate response was, we want to keep it on email for legal purposes. And then I said, I'll allow you to have the lawyer on and record the zoom.
And then that was the last time. And then I was like, all right, I'm going to wait. I'm going to wait for the night. I'm going to wake up in the morning.
And if there's no response, you know, this thing is going to be fake. And then right before I went to sleep, I went to the who is registered. Now that that's a page that you can go to to see when a website was created. They had alleged that they were doing work since Tony Ramsey died more than 15 years ago.
And so the who is registration pulled up that in mid July. That was when the website started. And I was like, Oh my God, this is all the scam. And then they also claimed to do a lot of charitable work.
I went to all the charity sites. There was none registered as a 501 C three. There was no prior events for the foundation. There was no prior Google hits.
There was there was nothing. And so I knew that this foundation was then fake. And then, you know, basically said to my gray, you know, did you ever see a foundation person to do a talk on the phone to the person? No, no.
And then that was it. Wow. Then it really started to unravel from there. I want to hear more of the story, but I have to ask one question that I think is really important here going back to the early stages of the story.
If it wasn't for the facts that my gray publicly posted about this photo match, which I don't think they publicly post about every photo. They do. They do. My my gray does issue releases for what they think is a big photo match.
They've been doing it more, but, but they do. Honestly, it's probably and I'm going to take a guess here. It's probably less than 10% of, no, definitely less than 10% of what they look at. So, so, okay.
Yes. If they never publicly posted anything, I don't think this would have ever happened. And then the collectors and then it would have and then the collectors wouldn't have known it would have happened. And the next chance to get it would have been at auction.
The issue is that this was being privately put about to people and maybe there wasn't ever going to be an auction. So, it would have been possible that maybe this person would buy it for 26,000 and flipped it for 3 million and no one would ever know. And that's probably what they wanted. They probably wanted this whole thing to be private because the migrant had never put out that release and a collector had never seen it and then said, huh, this looks suspicious, which by the way, like kudos to those people.
Who have no incentive in this and are taking time out of their own day to like kind of police the hobby, police the industry, look at this stuff and say, is this real or not, kudos to them for doing the legwork and the homework to go back and actually question the work that the photo matching company had done, which was not valid work. And so the fact that they did it and got it on your radar is what stops this entire scam from, as you said, potentially working because I'm sure this guy would have preferred to then sell this jersey privately so it never, no word of this ever got out there, but he could walk to private collectors with a photo match for my grade that is valid. And probably get a nice handsome sum of money from it and no one would have figured it out. And so maybe years, decades, if ever, right.
And then there was another thing that that finally got me to Card Porn and Juan Garcia, which was an Instagram post that had put him at my gray on August 8th. My gray wasn't willing to tell me that the guy named Juan Garcia, who we didn't even know that was his name, but or I didn't, who his card porn was at the offices, they would not give me that. But he posted himself through the card porn handle that he was at the offices holding up the actual jersey and holding up a Kobe jersey, I believe. And so this guy's arrogance shot himself in the foot so many damn times through this story.
It is a, I don't know if it's arrogant. See, I first thought it was arrogance, Jeff, but then I thought it was kind of like this, you know, when you have people who commit crimes and who are doing things like this, sometimes they like the adrenaline of towing the line, right? Like walking the line doing fugitive type stuff. And when I, when I saw later that he went under names such as the only names he went under were Jonathan, John, or Juan.
He could have gone under Ernie or Eddie or Mike or Tim or Jeff or Darren, but he, he went after John and Juan, like basically the English version of a Spanish name. Now, to me, that was crazy. He also had sent all his stuff to the same address on canning stream in Melbourne. So the fact that he was Australian gave him some some room because he was in Australia, you're going to know less about him than someone who's in the US.
But then when people start looking at, oh, did I mail anything to Australia? I mean, it's as big as the United States, but like the people from the US are interested. Then they only find a couple hits and then they only find an address. So they basically can say, wow, we don't have hundreds of thousands of orders from Australia in our business.
And that ultimately puts them together with some other people. So that, how did you confirm? How did you confirm it was him though? Like you saw, so you found that he had this Instagram post, which probably started to raise suspicions.
But like how, how was the connection made like, oh my God, this guy behind the cardboard website, this guy who's a known guy in the hobby who went to the national, went to was walking all around the national for five days, went to Ken Bolden's dinner at the national and sat there and talked to many other collectors at the national, you know, while all this was going on, like how did you find that this guy was in fact the guy that did all of this? So I can't tell, I have not publicly said, so I've just kind of said it sources, but I was able to get. Before we continue, I want to let you know that DraftKings Rainmaker's football is back for its second season and it's bigger and better than ever before. Head to DraftKings.com.com.com and sign up to play Rainmaker's today with Co.G.W.S.
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So I have not publicly said, so I just kind of said it sources, but I was able to get that he had used his credit card in some of these transactions. And the credit card said Juan Garcia. So he was not shy about you. Although he faked all this other stuff, he did not fake his real name in this circumstance.
And that's kind of what got him. And then again, to show up at the National, we later learned that he brings these two digitally printed out photos to Henry E at PSA to try to get PSA to slab them as 1-2-3. He didn't care what type it was. He just wanted PSA to slab them.
And Henry was protected by the fact that they really weren't doing photos at the National. They don't really do things quick like that. And he said, I couldn't. So he at least attempted to pawn off on PSA.
Wow, if I get these as type 1s, then they're real photos. Sure, because then PSA verifies them. And that makes my gray even more certain about the photo match. And it makes it even more of a great story to whoever he goes and sells the jersey to.
Wow, this guy. Juan Garcia. And then he went to the National. And what we believe was the first time to the National.
And enough people know who he is. And he kind of liked that people knew he was card-pointed a little bit, even though he wanted to keep it a secret. The top guys in the industry, Nat Turner, Ken Golden, they all knew who he was. Rick Probstein.
All knew who he was. And so I think he couldn't, he's like, well, what good is complete anonymity? And the fact that he liked that and went to the National, that became a thing. So we have that.
And then we have my gray kind of saying, I mean, it wasn't my job, but they asked me a lot of questions. You know, Barry Misele of my gray as an investigative, wasn't an investigative journalist for the New York Daily News. He was on the same page. He saw the writing on the wall just like, just like we all did and knew they'd have to eat it.
And first, they basically said, okay, we're freezing the authentication. And then, you know, after the weekend, from what I've learned, they were able to find through the sourcing of looking at the photo and matching it with the only thing they matched it with was kind of like, you know, the fraud type software where you can see if an image based on how it lights up when you put it into some sort of thing that, you know, basically there's some version of photo truth serum. And, and, you know, they clearly found out that it was doctored. So then they said, okay, we are, we are pulling this right now.
Now, the thing that they didn't find is, at least from what I know, they didn't find like the Phil Jackson. I guess the Jersey was transposed onto Jordan. Maybe Jordan was transposed in front of Phil Jackson. They, they, we haven't found out like whether the original Jersey existed.
Other, sorry, we haven't found out whether the original photo existed or it was just, everything was just moved around. So we actually don't know about that. But we, we knew at that point that, oh my God, this is not the Jersey, then, then I did find out about that cert from the November auction where the original consignor bought it. And this one was like, get out of here.
So it was not the cert was not in the auction that Juan Garcia bought it for, but the previous auction by Gravelennel did have the cert that said this is a game use Jersey. And the date on that cert was mid May of 1996, which would have meant that this Jersey, which was autographed, would have been in the hobby a couple weeks before Michael Jordan allegedly wore it. So that's like a, oh my good. Great.
I mean, just another twist of the knife there. This wasn't it. Like as soon as this came out and you started reporting on this, then all of a sudden, other frauds from Juan Garcia started to come to the table. Okay.
So we had, there was some cold cases, we should say, especially one that happened in Sydney in Australia on June 24, 2022, a collector met a guy in a McDonald's parking lot in Sydney. And because it was about $150,000 transaction, he had set it up as if I'm going to be frauded. I want to make sure I'm protected here. There were a couple of things that were some red flags.
Anyway, he set up his wife in a car to take a video of the person when they were leaving the McDonald's. And he recorded on his phone, the actual conversation inside the McDonald's. And on that recording, he's saying, okay, we're trading a two, two cards, again, involving Michael Jordan, which is interesting. Michael Jordan card, again, used card a Julius serving Jordan card worth about $150 grand for 1986, sealed, fleer box, sealed by BBC and authenticated by them.
And he's talking about, you know, here's the wrapping, the wrapping is, you know, as you know, this is what BBC does. It's an authentic box. Here's the letter from Steve Art, the head of BBC and he takes it and they he says here's my business card. If you need anything, let me know.
Guy takes it home. He's really excited. Doesn't think there's anything fake. And again, again, this might have gone on and he would have had it in his garage or had it in his room, his man cave wouldn't think anything is fake.
The next day he looks down at the business card and this guy has represented himself as Jonathan Stutter. Now what's interesting about that is not only is it the John, like Juan, but this guy had a business. Juan Garcia has a business called Art Fido and had been in the art world. And if you break up the last name, it's stud art.
I mean, again, it's like, you know, how many times he looks down at the business card, it says Jonathan Stutter, and then he looks at the phone number and the phone number is his phone number, not Jonathan Stutter's phone number, the guy who's doing the trade who has the fleer box. And he's like, he could have not put a phone number. He could have not put a phone number. Oh, man.
So I gave me a business card with no phone number. This is, but what he did was, he wanted to say, ha ha ha. I got you. I got you man.
And I printed up this special card with your phone number. And that's so evil. Like, that's a whole, like, this guy is really messed up. Like, that's a whole other level of evil to do that, not just to pull off a scam and to make money off of a scam, but then to actually taunt the person to leave an Easter egg behind to taunt the person who you scammed.
And then he said, I knew right away that this was no good. And I DMed him. And the DM was the dot Apollo dot 11. He had many Instagrams.
And he said, you know, essentially, like, why did you pick me as this fraud? And then that Instagram account was deleted. And then the case went cold. He didn't have, he only had a face that his wife took.
There was the fake name. So he went to the police and just talked about it. And then two months later he goes to the National Steve Hart and says, Hey, I think this is a fake box. And Steve looks at it and says, man, this is really good.
This is really good. But he messed up because he put the sticker, the sticker number on the back. So there's the sticker, the BBC sticker with the writing on it and then an additional sticker and an additional sticker then says what it is and matches to the inventory that they've done. And he said, the only thing he messed up on was we have an exemplar of an 86 clear box on our website.
And this is the exact number. And we made the number just for the website. There's not, there's not a real one here. So, so he, so this is indeed fake.
And then he went back. And again, as I talked about on the Australia thing, Steve Hart only has a couple clients in Australia. This guy was buying 1983 Olympic cards. Now, if anyone knows about these, they're the most generic cards you can ever imagine.
There's nothing that anyone would like about them. I mean, maybe in 1983, or they were hot, but certainly not now. He was buying rack packs of these 83 Olympic cards and Steve Hart had rationalized that the reason he did this was they were basically the largest cheapest boxes he could buy. So he could then take the wrapping and have as much error as possible.
And be able to wrap the 86 clear box. Wow. Darren, these stories are just absolutely insane. I know there's more of them too, but we're going to make our audience wait for that.
I want to be respectful of your time. I know you have to go. And this definitely deserves a part two as more of these stories unravel because more are continuing to come into you. And I know you're investigating.
So Darren, I appreciate you joining the show and everybody out there in the audience. Stay tuned for the next one. My God, what an incredible story, incredible in the absolute worst way. And this is probably just the beginning of the story.
There's more and more of these scams that have occurred in recent years that are now being brought to Darren's attention. He's looking at all of it. And we'll do a follow up episode at some point to cover some of that as well. So please subscribe, please like this video.
And as a reminder, the full length version of the Jeff Wilson show is available on YouTube, but it's also available on Apple Podcasts and on Spotify. So if you'd rather listen to the audio version, please subscribe to the Jeff Wilson show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and YouTube. And we'll see you next week for our next episode. Take care.