Mamie Thurman Pt. 2

Hi, I'm Holly and I'm Haley. Welcome to Mountain Mysteries Tales from Appalachia. Welcome back. Hello.

Look at that. We came back after a week versus a month. Wow. Nailed it.

Or multiple months. Or multiple months. We don't know. It's whatever.

We are giving you the highly anticipated part two of the Mamie Thurman murder. We left off by talking about a whole family, well, a whole household that got arrested, including some borders. Everybody up in there. What the hell is going on?

Like I was just trying to sleep. Like what are we doing here? Like nope. Everybody up.

Let's let's go. Let's let's go do some interrogations. And that is where we are going to pick up in our story. Can't wait.

And so police had heard enough and they were like, all of y'all like no, enough. They arrested all of the adults in the home, which included Mr. Robertson, his wife Louise, several of their borders, and of course, Clarence. So you're just like everybody.

You're like, that's it. Whole house. Everybody out. Let's go.

They also wanted to do a whole sweep of the whole house and they didn't want to do it with everybody there. So they were like, you're all arrested. Let's go. It is the 30s.

But they felt like there were people in this house who knew what happened and they were trying to hone in on that. Now for Jack, they really didn't feel like Jack was a suspect. He had an alibi. He was at work all night.

People saw him. So they also felt like Jack listening to interviews of other people. Jack was pretty genuine and honestly did not know what was going on. He was kind of in the dark.

So eventually after hours of interrogation at the police station, Harry Robertson says, I mean, I've been having an affair with her. So he comes to that. And remember how he said that the last time he saw her was June 18th Saturday before? Well, now he's changing his story.

And he said, okay, I actually saw her earlier in the evening on June 21st. He says, it's around in her time. It was just a simple like, Hey, hello, you know, whatever. And then he says, you know, I took my children into the swimming pool, like saw her said hi.

And then I took my kids to the swimming pool to go swimming. Okay, he states this was around 7 p.m. And after returning, he went to see a fight with his son not returning into well after 9 p.m. Mrs.

Robertson confirmed her husband's story. Yes, he went out, took the kids, came back, went to the fight, came back home, went to sleep. Okay, that was his night. Okay.

Now, Clarence is also interrogated and has a hard time noting his whereabouts, only stating, I'm really rooting for Clarence here. You're going to be rooting for him a lot through the story. So just hold tight here. Okay.

So the thing about Clarence is you would think that the his employers would say, yeah, he was home bed. Well, no, they were saying things like, you know, oh, yeah, we we heard him go out. He took the car, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, we thought he was going out to take care of the dogs because that was part of his job is beating and taking care of the hunting dogs. And we just thought that's what he was doing in the middle of the night when he left.

So they're throwing him under the bus hard. I know, I feel like this was a set up for Clarence. Not good. Also, I witnesses claims that they saw Clarence driving the Robertson's car near the area where Mamie's body was found.

Okay, both Clarence and Mr. Robertson were held over in jail, but only one was charged with murder. Any idea who it was? Clarence.

Yes, that's right. It's Clarence. So not only was Mr. Robertson white, he was also wealthy and well connected in the community.

Oh, and I didn't mention his father had been the former sheriff in town. So he had a great deal of pull. Yeah, Mr. Robertson was off the hook and Clarence was now under a microscope.

The police had to keep Clarence in hiding for his own safety because Lynch mobs were forming in order to take justice into their own hands. When Clarence's trial did occur in the fall of 1932, it was pandemonium. Reporters from all around had come to Logan to watch the trial of a decade. Like we've said in many cases before, people are outside selling food, beverages, merch, they crowded into the courthouse.

Some of them were standing room only. They would bring their lunch pails, just, you know, stand there eating their raccoon sandwich or whatever they were eating, you know, and watching the trial of the record. Right. I mean, when I think lunch break, I don't think I'm going to go watch a trial.

It's not my first thought. It's strange. Maybe it should be. You know what?

You're right. You know, I need to hang out around the courthouse. Yeah. It's a good idea.

It's a cool thing. That's absolutely. So at the trial, Jack got on the stand and gave heartbreaking testimony of his love for Mamie and how horrible her death had been for him. Jack had been quickly ruled out as a suspect.

I had as I mentioned, but he just sat there and sobbed openly and just expressed how hard life had been for him trying to go on without his beautiful Mamie. The jury, consisting of mostly men, were surprisingly emotional during this testimony because everybody was like, wow, that guy truly loved her. Yeah. After Jack's anguishing testimony, this is Louise Robertson is called to the stand.

She testified that her husband had been taking the children to the pool. Like you said, she also stated that she was unaware of his quote unquote brief affair with Mamie. And her definition is a brief or different. I agree.

I don't think years would be considered brief. Right. Yeah. Maybe a month.

Maybe. Yeah. She also stated that Clarence had left the home sometime in the evening, as mentioned, to go and feed the dogs or she assumed to go feed the dogs. And really, she gave no other information just that it seemed likely that it could be Clarence.

She had no explanation for the blood in the basement and she had no explanation for the blood in the car. Only that, you know, Clarence was often in that basement and also Clarence drove the car. She couldn't drive. Mr.

Robertson gets up on the stand and he testifies. Yes, I was having an affair with Mamie, but I had no reason to kill her. Also, she was having an affair with many people. And I have an alibi.

My wife testified to it. I took the children to the pool. I went to a fight with my son. It wasn't me.

So they let him off the stand. And now it's time for Clarence to get up there in his own defense. So Clarence gets on the stand. And when asked about the blood drops found in the car, they brought up Clarence's initial statement about it being from the pause of the hunting dog.

Well, Clarence, you know, with his hand on the Bible, hedged a little bit and said, well, we didn't really keep the dogs in the front of the car. They were usually in the backseat. And so prosecutors said, well, that's odd Clarence because then where does this blood come from? And he was, uh, and then they pulled out a, hey, we tested the blood and it's human, not raccoon.

So Clarence explained to us, how did human blood get on the floorboard of the car? Clarence said, uh, I don't know. And he stated that he was fearful because he did not want to throw Mr. Robertson under the bus.

He also stated that there were some powerful men in town who would be more than happy to see him take the wrap for this murder. Yeah. Apparently Clarence had been threatened while on the stand. There were men in the back of the courthouse, making gestures to him that scared him.

So while on the stand, he didn't want to go too deeply into what he knew or had seen Clarence did state that Mr. That Mrs. Robertson was aware of the affair. Having found out just several weeks prior, several months prior, this significantly changed the relationship that she had with Maney.

The two went from being very close to not relieving speaking to each other. Makes sense. It was also implied that Maney had lost her job at the bank due to pressure from Mrs. Robertson to let her go because of the affair.

But see, honestly, I kick her out of the apartment. Oh, yeah. Because I mean, okay, sure. Yeah, you don't see her at work, but you could still be banging her in the garage.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know. Yeah, kick her out of the apartment.

Kick her out of the apartment. So Clarence, um, goes on to talk about this. And he even said that there was a letter where Mrs. Robertson basically detailed all of this to Clarence and said all of this.

Yeah. And you know, all of this was kind of going on under Jack's nose when he would go to work. So even after she stopped working at the bank, she was still seeing him at night. So at this point, most defense attorneys would stop and be screaming like, we got to look at the wife.

She hasn't voted. Yeah. They weren't. Yeah.

So Clarence even stated that Mrs. Robertson had made comments about how she wanted to get rid of Maney for good. Mm hmm. Now, where some would see Mrs.

Robertson as a potential suspect, particularly you and me. Yeah. And particularly if you think about the brutality of the crime, this was someone who was angry. Yeah.

I mean, this person didn't just want me dead. Like they wanted her dead. So Mrs. Robertson seems like a likely God bless you.

That's so much. I could go overwhelmed. I can tell. I am.

So she seems like a likely candidate. Seems like a likely candidate and think about the betrayal. She had taken this young girl under her wing. She had befriended her.

She led her into their tight circle and her trust had been portrayed not only by her husband, but by this young girl who she had basically been mentoring. You know, almost like a daughter in a way. She's knocking boots with a husband right under her nose. So did Mrs.

Robertson carry out a plan to kill Maney with the help of Clarence? So remember, Mrs. Robertson can't drive. So did you?

Or does it? I don't think can. Because you got to remember women in this time period a lot didn't drive. Right.

And cars were relatively new to the scene within, you know, decade and a half. Yeah. Cars were kind of new. So a lot of women didn't drive.

Honestly, my grandmother didn't drive until the 60s. So yeah, it was very common for women not to drive. Okay. Anyway, so what if and remember Clarence worked for them?

So it wasn't like he could say no. Oh, no, I don't think I'm going to do that. So what if and I'm just throwing this out? This is not part of the story, but I'm thinking about this hypothetically.

What if Maney comes over to the house while Mr. Robertson is out taking the kids to the pool or wherever he's at and they lure her in the basement and, you know, maybe slit her throat. Okay. Well, now we got to do something with the body.

Right. All right. Right. So now we take her and Clarence helps and we transport this mountain.

Okay. And we drag her and leave her here and oh, we want to make sure she's dead. So we're going to shoot her twice in the head and, you know, and maybe there had been, she had been beaten as well. So maybe, you know, in the basement, she was beating her.

I don't know. I, you know, also seems like they would find more blood. Yeah, you would think. Yeah.

But again, you know, the story is, you know, old, so almost 90 years old. So, or over 90. Anyway, so it just makes me wonder she had motive. She could have pulled Clarence in because I don't think Clarence was totally innocent in this.

I think that he has a lot of knowledge and he was probably not only the scapegoat, but I also do think that he was involved, complicit, but forced to be, if that makes sense. Yeah. I think Mr. Robertson knew about it, but I think he was covering up for his wife.

Yeah. That's, that's just my theory. Yeah. So, okay.

So November 1932, Clarence fate is up to a jury of men and women who frequented these men frequented the social and war club. Oh, great. So a lot of them knew, knew maybe they really knew her intimately. So after about 45 minutes of deliberation, the jury returns with a verdict of guilty.

What a shock everyone. Please sit down, hold on to your sandwiches. But they did recommend mercy. Now, in this case, what mercy meant is we don't want him to get the death penalty.

Okay. We want him to get life in prison. Okay. Because they didn't totally feel that he was the sole person response.

And it also is fair to say that she was screwing around with a lot of ladies husbands and a lot of men. And she also had the potential, you know, when you're flying high like that, you can also make a lot of enemies. So it could have been a multitude of people might not have, you know, been what we think it is. So they said we want mercy on him.

We want him to just have life in prison. And that's what he was given. He was incarcerated. And he spent the next decade in prison until, yeah, 1941, when he began having pretty severe stomach pains, he ignored them, like, you know, but after several months, he was taken to the prison infirmary where they diagnosed him with advanced stomach cancer.

And in April of 1942, he ends up dying at the Hutton Spill Prison Farm. Oh, yeah. But to the end, he said, I'm innocent. I was really hoping he got out.

Yeah. I mean, he did. He went to be with Jesus. Yeah.

But you know what, an inmate who had roomed with Clarence, his name was Norman Sloan, he said, quote, he told me he was hired to take the body to 22 Mountain, which is what they now call this mountain. Yeah, 22 Mountain Road. And that he didn't do anything to make me Thurman. He said he didn't have a lick to do with it, but he also didn't say who killed her.

So he was just called on to dispose. Yes. Yeah. He said it was just all politics, how he wound up here.

Yeah, which does make sense. I mean, like what a good scapegoat. Black man. The Black man.

Absolutely. It means the 30s. And in a rural area. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not surprised. I'm disappointed. I'm not surprised.

Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Let's factoid here that kind of adds to our story because, hey, it is Mountain Mr.

It was rumored that the area where Mamie's body was found at the top of Trace Mountain now called 22 Mine Road is haunted with the tortured spirit of Mamie Thurman. I'm sure it is. Oh, her ghost haunts Mountain Road right around the area where her body was dumped. And it is said that people see her walking along the roadway.

Yeah. How exciting. And legends in the area also say that if you park at the bottom of 22 Mine Road and place your car in neutral, it'll start rolling uphill. Not downhill.

Right. Up hill. That's funky. It's kind of like her ghost the hands are pushing your car.

Yeah. Yeah. Hello. That is ringing.

It is my phone and I keep trying to silence it, Dagnabbit. But I have my watch and my iPad and all of it. It's Mamie calling for me. Oh, or Clarence.

It's like, okay. I tell my story. Should I answer it with hello? A more club?

Yeah. I tell you. How may I, how may I direct your call? So there's even a plaque dedicated to Mamie at the foot of the mountain telling the history and potential for ghostly encounters.

I mean, I like that we're warned. Yeah. Good for warning as well. Yeah.

So there's some other things that I didn't include in the story, but I'll just hit on real quick that Mamie's stepmother, remember the one who was near her age? Yeah. Apparently, like once Mamie's dad died, the stepmother moved to Logan and the two like to entertain gentlemen and go out to the club together. So she and stepmomm are like, um, live in their best young lives.

Yeah. Doesn't it though? Like, like mom? Yeah.

Yeah. It's weird. So, um, very interesting. I mean, I guess that by day, she was a Sunday school teacher, secretary and by night, she was part of girl.

So live your life. It just goes to show like we never truly know people. And as for the Robertson family, they never really got back in the social scene. Like there were a lot of whispers in town.

You know, even though they got off, you know, you still can't get away from people's opinions. So eventually the family moved to Arlington, Virginia, where Harry died in 1969. Louise remained married to her husband up until his death. So even with his affairs, and I say that plural because I would assume there's probably more than one.

Yeah. She passed away in 1983 at the age of 92. While their children would go on to be pretty successful, their son was a dentist in World War Two vet. They mostly kept to themselves, and both of their children died in 2007, leaving a lot of family history behind.

So it's unclear, you know, how much they were aware of this crime, um, and their parents involved in their interactarounds. But yeah, so that is the story of Mamie Thurman, Sunday school teacher by day, harlot by night. Wow. Yeah.

What a wild ride. I told you and a ghost on top. I mean, it's really the trifecta there. I tried to bring it.

I know we have been craving a story. So thank you. I'm a breast uh, been waiting. Ha Ha Ha.

Haley told me so side note, y'all. I did, um, ask a bunch of my friends because I got on this like thing about, you know, what do you think is the saddest song. And so I was texting a bunch of my friends and Haley said, um, you know that Sarah McLaughlin song from the ASPCA, she got an arm to the angel and she was like, yes. And then she told me tonight, she wanted to do a voice memo for me and send me arms of the angel.

Yeah. So here's your platform. Like sad puppy eyes. And then I had told you and you're like, I know that it came from 1998.

There was a movie with Nick Nicholas Cage called City of Angels. And that's actually where that song came from. Um, but yes, that's all it's all it's all you're here. That's all going to immediately.

You're like, sad animals. It also is. And I don't want the world to see me. Yeah.

Cause I don't think they understand. Yeah. It is. Okay.

Watch the movie. I don't think it's that great of a movie. Okay. I mean, it's okay.

I don't love Nicholas Cage. Oh, I don't think he's a phenom. Sorry if you're a fan. I mean, he's like not a great person either.

Yeah. I don't think so just throwing that out there. I have missed you guys. It's been a while.

It has been a while. And if you want to get ahold of us, we would love that. We have seen an influx. Actually, I just looked at it today in flux of people listening.

Like now that we've gone to once a month, theoretically, yeah, well, we have seen a huge influx of listeners. So maybe the truth is we really just should have gone to once a month. A long time. I know.

Well, I want to say that we have gotten a couple of emails on our mountain mystery email that I want to make sure that we talk about. You never told me this. Listen, I just checked it today. Oh, I'm so sorry.

It's been a crazy month. No, what? Oh, I'm engaged. Come on.

I mean, I also was like, definitely, I'm dying. I'm planning wedding. Like, please. So I fell on ice.

Come on. We have a cat and Brie who emailed us and they are just really cute. They said they recently discovered our podcast have been absolutely binging episodes to catch up on all the GCT. We officially declared Mondays our podcast Mondays where we game and listen together.

And it's quickly become a favorite tradition. We're loving the podcast and your friendship dynamic. It genuinely reminds us so much of our own. I love they've been friends for 20 years.

They have matching ghost tattoos. I'm obsessed with them. They also just a case for us. I'll share with you later.

So we can do it. Great. But they are literally so cute. Cat and Brie.

Thank you so much. Ghost tattoos. I'm obsessed. Hayley.

I feel like that needs to be what we do. We had so we've had periods where we we do have periods. But regularly. We've been straight.

But now we've had periods of time where we actually have talked about, hey, we're going to go get tatted up together. Yeah. Yeah. It was truly and it has not come under fruition.

But I feel like we need to make this happen. I think so too. I know what it's going to be. I feel like it has to be a ghost now.

It could be or we could play it safe and get an H. Cute. And then people will just think we're into ourselves. Yeah.

I like it. Cute. We also got an email from actually someone who used to work with my mom. She doesn't work there anymore.

She's at a different facility at a different price state. But her name is Kristen. Hi, Kristen. Kristen.

Let me see if there's any others. Well, what did it say? Oh, it just that she works with my mom. And she says we do an excellent job.

She also has some fun ghost stories herself would love to hear them. Oh, yes. I would love to hear them. That's great.

Sure. Thank you for listening. Yeah. And then I think that's all because I'm bad at looking at her email.

And Hailey is the only one that can access. Sorry. Yeah. No, that's it.

Okay. Okay. We caught up now. Wow.

Yeah. That's awesome. So please keep the email in. Hailey, do you want to tell them how to contact us?

Sure. It's been a minute since I've done that. I know that's why making you do it. Oh, thanks so much.

You're welcome. Yeah. So you can send us an email. I promise I'll check it eventually.

She won't. Mount Mysteries. Tod at theLatchin at gmail.com. You can find us on our Facebook Mount Mysteries, Pails from Appalachia, our Instagram Mount Mysteries dot Appalachia, and our Patreon, which we've been collecting slightly.

We'll get back to you. It's coming. It's on Patreon.com. So I'm going to give a shout out to Ontario Canada.

Hey, Ontario. Eh, eh, eh. Oh, we've just lost some fans. But listen, I'm excited.

Hailey and I are going to be talking soon about our podcast for a class. Yeah. We got invited to speak to a college class about our podcast and all the things. So we are really excited about that.

I am so excited. I think it's going to be hilarious. Yeah. Because I don't know what they're expecting, but I'm sure it's not us.

I was going to say should we wear blazers? I know. Should we dress like them in in black? Or get our court pants out?

Yes. That feels fancy. Yeah. Court pants feels like.

And then like, you know, maybe they play like some kind of theme music or something, you know, and we walk in like the badasses we are. Sure. I don't scare the children. They're not children.

They're college age. Listen, I teach college students. They are children. Okay.

Fine. Traditional. My my traditional students. My adult students.

My children. But my day students and children. Okay. Fine.

We just come in like a badass when we are and we just sit down and we're like, question. No, I'm hoping that these guys are, I think they're going to be talking about it. That's going to be cool. I'm so excited about this.

Don't even know. Like I actually want to just take class to be honest. You've been talking about cold, they've been talking about cold cases. I'm like, what in the hell?

I want to do this. Like I've been thinking about it. If I had gone into this field, I think I really wanted to work. I would work a cold case unit.

Like that would be. You'd be really cool. Yeah. I mean, it's actually like, oh my gosh.

Good school. Sure. That was your child. My child.

Everything. My child. Everything. I got I have students that are in my class that have like young kids and doing a thing.

It's a lot. I couldn't do it, but they're killing it. Yeah. I don't know.

Yeah. Well, we'll see you next time. We'll let you know how it goes. Thank you guys so much for hanging on with us.

We are sorry, but we will be back next month. We will. We'll bring it to you. It'll be Haley's story next time.

No pressure. Okay. Bye.