If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized texts wherever you are, and serves as smarter search results just for you.
You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and look right in the app. Download the Eater app at EaterApp.com. It's free for iOS users.
Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine, the Box Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. We're all for the holiday today, but we have a special episode from Access with Alex Heath and Ellis Hamburger for you today.
In this episode, Alex and Ellis talk all things Mark Zuckerberg, from the newest Meta Ray-Ban display glasses to the beverage selections in the new Meta AI lab. Alex then sits down with himself ahead of the 2025 MetaConnect conference. Enjoy, and we'll be back in your feeds on Friday. Did you just tell Trump you were going to spend like $600 billion?
I did, yeah, through 2028, which is... That's a lot of money. It is. And if we end up misspending a couple of hundred billion dollars, I think that that is going to be very unfortunate, obviously.
But what I'd say is I actually think the risk is higher on the other side. Welcome to Access from the Box Media Podcast Network. I'm Alex Heath and Ellis, you are. I'm Ellis Hamburger, not your favorite sandwich, but your new favorite podcast host.
I have had a lot of people since I've been saying that I'm doing a show with you asking me if your actual last name is Hamburger. It is. Verify. Yeah, you have Hamburger on X, which is a flex.
That's fine. I'm so scared to leave. Don't make me leave. Ellis, why are we doing a podcast?
I feel like there's so many podcasts, but, you know, I've been getting that question a lot, too. Yeah, Alex, I think we have great chemistry. We've known each other for a long time. We both, I think, see a different side of tech as it is today.
I feel like you're so well-connected in big tech. You love to schmooze with all the biggest founders. I do love to schmooze. Yeah, you do.
I've got a good stranglehold on the AI startup arena with the work that I've been doing at Meeting, and I feel like we could just really bring something different. I mean, you've been in media forever. I was starting in media at The Verge, then went into Startup World for a while at Snapchat and the browser company, and so I think we have something interesting. I think we want to talk about the inside conversation, what people are really thinking and talking about, as opposed to just what's in the headlines.
So, yeah, hopefully we can do that. Yeah, I think we both just wanted to make a show we wanted to listen to and didn't feel like a show like that existed, and I hope we're going to make that. I think we will, and it feels really fun to be doing it with you. And the way we're going to structure these episodes is, you know, it's a talk show interview show, pretty standard.
You and I are going to rap about some things happening in our world, things we think that you're going to want to know about, even if you're pretty plugged in, that's coming soon, or stuff that just hit. And then we're going to go usually to an interview, either with a big name. This week, we've got the one and only Mark Zuckerberg. Next week, we've got Dylan Field, the CEO of Figma, for his first pod since the biggest tech appeal of the year.
We're going to have an interesting mix of, I think, big names and then also early stage founders, some of which you work with directly at Meeting, that we just think people should know about. They're going to be the companies that you're going to be hearing about in the next few years or maybe already. And we want to make something that feels good if you're tapped in, but also relevant if you just want to know more about this crazy tech world we're in. Yeah, I think you got it all right.
I think the one other thing that's on my mind is, I just want to have fun with this. Tech has been a part of my life for so long. And while this industry is so often mired in, you know, often valid skepticism, pessimism, uncertainty, I think there's still so much brightness and optimism and fun just to have in building the future together. Obviously, we all want to be honest and hold each other accountable.
But I think tech is culture these days. And I want to cover the whole thing holistically versus just the last earnings call and what the latest ARPU and DAU numbers are. Yeah, I can ask that stuff. I mean, I'm pretty interested in the business and strategy of these companies.
It's what I cover a lot at Sources, my new publication about the tech industry and Silicon Valley and AI. I was previously deputy editor at The Verge, where I had a pretty successful newsletter there called Command Line. And now I'm an entrepreneur, I guess, like you, Ellis. I'm on the other side.
And this pod is part of that. I hope it feels part of the same cinematic universe, I guess. But Sources is going to be, I guess, maybe where I also play a little more a bad cop to the good cop of the mood we're trying to make on the show. We found out that Zuck wanted to do the first episode.
That gave us a deadline I think neither of us were planning for. But it's been great. It's been a good kick in the pants to get this thing going. Just Zuck and I, but I think there's also an element of the different perspectives we can bring to these conversations, right?
Like you've got this really interesting perspective working with a lot of these startups directly. And then I've got my kind of more journalist POV of having met a lot of these leaders in big tech, especially in the big AI labs over the years. Yeah, well, first I want to get the real distinction between how you would interview Zuck and how I would interview Zuck. I think you're going to be in one of those fireside chat chairs.
I want to go t-shirt shopping with him. Maybe have the jewelry store out there, look at some chains. That's the interesting combination, I think, that we represent, Alex. I'm Maria Sharapova, and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough.
Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Follow Pretty Tough wherever you get your podcasts. So we are 250 years into this American experiment, and I say it's going okay.
I give us like a C+. There is no perfect past, but there is also no exclusively negative past. Because humans are going to human, that's what we do. I think the story of America is the struggle of people who have not been included in the promise of America to expand those principles to include more people.
What's going to determine the next 250 years of America? And how do we write a new social contract that can give us the democracy we deserve? Okay, so I'm just going to be a jerk here because I'm a historian. So we have to have a prologue explaining, you know, we the people.
Oh, okay. You know, I just don't remember it from Schoolhouse Rock. We the people are going to the former first of the union. I establish this.
What is it? Ensure domestic tranquility? So you're talking about a foundational document. So I'm building a document that will protect American democracy.
That's this week on America Actually. So I got an early sneak peek of the conversation with Zuck. And I'll say this. He seemed very confident, very comfortable, having fun.
What was the vibe you got from him during the conversation? What was he wearing? How was he feeling? It's pretty crazy, you know, to go from sitting next to Trump to sitting next to Alex Heath.
It seems like he's got some swag these days. I mean, yeah, the swag has been the Zuck arc for the last couple of years, I would say. I mean, you notice the chain is tucked in this year. He was still wearing it, but it's tucked in, which I don't know if that means, you know, we've got business to do, which is maybe this new AI stuff.
I do think they feel pressure on these glasses. They really want these glasses to be well-received. They're Ray-Ban branded, and they're pretty wild. They can do a lot.
It's not full augmented reality, but it's a pretty good heads-up display that can do texting, heads-up navigation, a bunch of other stuff. And they have this neural band that controls the glasses that feels like legitimate sci-fi. It's one of the coolest demos you will do. And they announced it this week at Connect, and people are going to start seeing them out in the wild.
They're kind of expensive. You know, they're $800. I think these are very clearly an early adopter kind of product, prosumer, so to speak. And I got to demo them last week, and they are really cool.
You cannot be a fan of tech like you and I are, Ellis, and not think these are cool. Now, whether I'm going to wear them all day or they're going to start replacing the smartphone, I think that's very much TBD. But yeah, I was pretty impressed. So what was the magic moment across all these different use cases that you tried with the glasses?
Because I feel like there have been so many ambitions for what they could be. I mean, I was back at Snapchat in the early days when we launched Spectacles. And all you could do is just take a 10-second video or photo with them. We've seen people iterate on them over time.
I know you mentioned to me that it did a lot more than you expected. What was just first principles? What was the best thing you tried? There was this moment where I felt like I had super hearing.
It was a thing that only something like this form factor could do, where they're calling it, I think, live captions. So I was in this room with a bunch of people, and you could look at someone, and everyone was talking very loud. And if you were looking at them, it would live caption what they were saying, even if they were six to eight feet away, and it was super loud, and you couldn't hear them on your own. And then they added language translation to this, where you can do live language translation back and forth.
That was pretty magical. The display itself is honestly pretty good. It sits to the side of your eye, which is kind of unusual when you first try it. But it lets you see the picture you're about to take, or the video you're about to take, which is honestly something that feels simple.
But in that form factor of the camera on your face, it actually matters a lot. And the band has this little gesture where you can twist in a knob in the air to zoom in and zoom out, so it feels like you're Tom Cruise and Minority Report a little bit. The crazy thing is with the band, and I really can't describe how much of a game changer the band is for input, because you don't have to just talk to it or wave in front of it to get it to do something. You can just do this very light top gesture.
Do a little pinch. A little pinch, and the display just melts away, comes back, melts away as you pinch. And I started getting that pretty fast. I wore the glasses for about an hour, took them outside, took the demo off rails a little bit, asked the AI things that weren't verbatim, what they told me to ask, it still worked.
You know, like place some glasses and plates on this table, make it look like a table setting. It did it, you know, stuff like that. This display is like 5,000 nits or something. It's super bright, and it's very clearly designed to just be worn everywhere you go.
And the battery lasts around eight hours. I bet it's less than that with the display going the whole time. I think you made some stuff out there, but that's good. Well, so setting aside the display, I feel like so much of AI is, you know, obviously the hardware has to be there, but how does their AI work?
You know, I feel like especially in the age of AI and MCP and people trying to do things agentically, so much of it is like, what sources is it using? What can it do? Can it plug into other services? Or was it just kind of like better Siri, at least at the outset?
I would say better visual Siri. It's still meta AI, which obviously is not the leading AI. AI definitely took a backseat in the demo. I think they probably wished that they had more AI features, but Zuck is doing this massive AI reboot that everyone's been reading about.
I asked him about that actually in the interview. We talked about it and he dropped some new stuff, I think, about the lab that was pretty interesting. I don't want to give it away, but I think they know they're behind on AI, but they have the bare minimum and no one has a product anywhere close to this in terms of the form factor, the price, the display, the band, and the ability to do texting with the band. Zuck said he types 30 words per minute with the band, which I kind of- Yes, how does that work?
It's like auto-complete with your finger? Yeah, it's like auto-complete with slight wrist finger gestures. Like you can write almost like on your leg or whatever, and it auto-completes it. He says it's doing 30 words per minute, which is impressive.
I think it's really worth shooting off quick texts, which I did, and it works. But yeah, it's a wild device. It's definitely something if you are listening to a show like this, you're going to want to try. So watching Zuck for a great many years, I feel like he's been trying to build and own the next platform forever.
You know, he's tried phones, he's tried VR, trying to build a metaverse, now AI glasses. Alex, you are a betting man. Do you bet that this is the one where the platform works? Because it is such a fine line, right?
Like Apple does appear to be uniquely good at combining the hardware and the software because everybody's competing on the hardware. I do think at the end of the day, the software is going to be a pretty big deciding factor. It doesn't have the apps you want. How does, for example, Vision OS feel to you compared to the OS that they're kind of building across AR and VR and this and that?
Is this the platform where they win? I think it's going to take a few years for this to really get mature and become something that is compelling to a lot of people, not just early adopters. You can totally see the path to it, though, when you try this, I think. And I felt that way when I tried Orion, their first pair of like full AR glasses that are not a consumer release last year, which when I say Orion in the interview, that's what I'm talking about.
Yeah, I think compared to the Vision Pro, it's definitely not as full-featured, but it's a different use case. It's not a headset. It's not a pair of goggles that fully blocks you off from the real world. I mean, these are chunky, but like in the right light, it could pass almost as normal glasses.
And that's their main job. I mean, their main job is to be something you can wear around. And the tech is supposed to be supplementary to that. And I think there's a lot of work to do to make the tech actually feel like it fades into the background appropriately.
I think Meta is very motivated to figure it out. You're right. They really want another platform. And they're sinking billions of dollars into all of this because they, like pretty much every big tech company I know of, thinks that this combo of glasses with a display and AI is maybe going to be the next smartphone.
So I have one more question for you before we get to the feature presentation in evening with Alex and Zuck. We like to talk about people here on the Access Podcast, even though this is the very first episode. So every time that I feel like Meta goes through a different transformation, we hear about how that team has been moved next to Zuck's office. Yeah.
How does that work out over time? Do you just kind of find yourself in the inner orbit? And then with each new tech trend, you get a couple inches away, kind of like tectonic plates. Who's in the inner circle right now?
Who has been pushed to the outer orbit? Yeah, the inner circle right now is the new AI lab, which I think I'm the first outsider to see physically. When I was there for my demos, they walked me in and I was getting a lot of side eye, I would say, from the researchers in there who were like, who is this guy that's looking at our Lama algorithm written out on these whiteboards? Luckily, I don't know math.
So they're secretly safe with me. But yeah, the lab is sitting there in this kind of special area with Zuck. And as I say in the interview, they were cranking. I think I saw some shoes off, a lot of code happening.
And it's very clear that Meta is redoing this stuff. And I think this device is part of the reason why I think they know that AI is the killer feature for glasses like this. And they want to be on the frontier of that. Most importantly, what are they drinking?
We got Hyples, Monster Energy, Diet Coke is making a comeback. What was on the tables? I didn't catch the drinks. That would have been a good catch.
But you know, these big tech campuses, they have just not everything you need. You never need to leave. It's like Hotel California. All right, man.
Well, I guess we'll get into the combo with Zuck here. Mark, I don't think you can be into technology and the cutting edge like I am and not try these here in the middle, these new display glasses, and think they're just not really cool. And I want to get into what they do and why you're building them. But can you kind of just initially set the stage for us and explain why you all are doing a display in this form factor?
Because you have AR glasses and you have the glasses that don't have displays. So why do something in the middle here? I mean, we're working on all kinds of glasses. I mean, my theory is that, you know, at a high level glasses, I think, are going to be the next computing platform device.
I think that they're great for a number of reasons. One is that they don't take you away from the moment. So you can stay present in the moment, unlike with phones, I think that's a big deal. And they're also basically the best device for AI because it's the only device where you can basically let an AI see what you see, hear what you hear, talk to you throughout the day.
And once you get the display, it can just generate UI in the display for you. So that's... great and then the other thing that glasses can do is it's really the only form factor that can put holograms in the world to help you seamlessly blend the physical world around you in the digital world um which i just think it's a little crazy over here it's 2025 we have this incredibly rich digital world and you access it through this like five inch screen in your pocket so that i think there's going to get these things blended together so that's glasses at a high level but then you get into okay well what do people want with glasses and glasses are very personal it's not just like a phone where everyone kind of is okay with something that's pretty similar maybe a different color case um people are going to want a lot of different styles um people are going to want different amounts of technology depending on whether they want a frame that is on the thinner side or bulkier side or whether they can afford more technology or less so i know there's just this whole range of different things um from you know simple glasses that don't have that much technology in them maybe the ability to talk to ai and have it see what's going on around you all the way up to full augmented reality glasses that have kind of wide field of view like the orion prototype and everything in between and different styles right so we did uh we started right then which is probably um the most single most iconic and popular glasses design in history and now this year uh we were adding oakley so we did the oakley meta house dens this summer and then it can actually announce these guys the oakley meta vanguard which we'll get to in a bit yeah um this is i think what people kind of had in mind when they thought when they heard that we were doing something with oakley it was more of this but these are dope yeah i mean they look great they're great for performance and we'll talk about that in a minute but the but the deal is that people want all kinds of different things so um there's gonna be this whole spectrum and one important technology is obviously going to be getting um getting a holographic display and then within that there's a whole world of options too you could have a small holographic display that can just display a little bit of information you could have wide field of view that can basically overlay kind of avatars and deliver a sense of presence which was orion last year that's orion that's kind of what we're building towards in the consumer version of that um so there's a number of different points on the spectrum and what we're doing here with the meta ray band display i think is a good kind of starting point where it's not a tiny display it's actually it's quite meaningful you can read a whole text thread you can you know watch videos you can do a video chat you can watch videos that you've taken um i guess you can watch reels on it if you want um but so it's a meaningful size display um but this one isn't really meant for putting objects in the world it's more meant for just showing information and um so anyway we've been working on this for like all the glasses and that we've been working on for more than 10 years at this point so you know when we get when we have these moments along the way where we get to like show a new technology that i think is pretty different from what others are working on which the display glasses is one thing but the meta neural band that's the way to interact with it where you share these micro gestures in your hand and you're controlling what you're saying it's just wild the band is wild we gotta talk about the band but i guess the thing that surprised me the most in my demo of the glasses last week was just how much they can do frankly i i've been reporting on these for a while and as the build up has been you know coming for them and i i thought they would have a little bit of a more limited use case to start but they can do quite a bit and i'm i'm curious what was the goal of their overall functionality what are you trying to achieve with this are you trying to replace the phone or just get people use it less i mean what's what's the big picture idea of like this is what it can do well i always think about everything from a communication connection angle first right because that's that's kind of the legacy and the dna of the company um so probably the most important thing that i focus on wanting to get them to do is be aware of them get a text message respond really quickly and subtly with your hand if you want um with like like we're having this conversation now and i could i mean like we're talking about this level of hand motion yeah like i'm making it's like i thought you might wear an interview another thing about them is you can't you can't tell they have this way like even when yeah so that's actually an important part of the technology is um is light leakage is a feature of some types of waveguides and so basically you get these trade-offs where you want them to be very efficient uh there are waveguides we have to pump just a ton of light through them in order to get anything to show up um but then some waveguides have um just different artifacts um and usually in a bad way it's like a light will catch them and you'll see all kind of rainbowing or something another artifact that we think is pretty bad because it's a privacy issue is if the person who you're looking at can basically yeah well the very worst version of it would be if they could see what you're seeing um but i think another version i think is still not that socially acceptable is if they can see that you're looking at something at all right um so i think that that's one of the things that we're really proud of in the design here and that we put a lot of energy into is you know the the displays are super bright to you and to the person you're looking at they can not even really tell that you're doing anything i know that's important thing to be socially acceptable right i mean we also design them so that way when when the display comes up it's offset slightly to the side we don't block what you're doing an important principle for glasses is the technology needs to get out of the way right it's i mean fundamentally it's like you know this is something you're gonna be wearing on your face for a lot of the day and we design these specifically to be um you know both indoor and outdoor that with transition lenses they work really well sunglasses outdoors um but the reality is that most of the day you're not gonna be using technology or at least visual yet right so like maybe i'm gonna be listening to music or something but um but we want you know when you are interacting with something it should show up it should kind of be off to the side if you don't interact with it it needs to get out of the way really quickly that's a really important principle of the whole thing you got this weight gesture with the band where you can just tap quickly to make the display go away and again i want to get into the band the band is wild in its own right um the thing that really stood out to me from my demo from these was some things that you only could do in a form factor like this because i mean the texting is cool but like there's this live captions thing where i was in a room with a bunch of people and they all started talking really loudly and i just look at someone they would live caption what they were saying yeah tune out everything else it's like super hearing um and then you're also doing that with language translation so you can do real time i mean ideally both people are wearing glasses to get the full experience but you don't actually need to have you could just hear what they're saying in your language or see it yeah that's pretty wild and that speaks to like what just this form factor could do i'm curious like there's that are there other things that this form factor uniquely can do in your mind that a smartphone can't um i mean the all the things around ai where you have an ai that basically you want to have context around what's going on with you right so like if you want an ai that can see what you see hear what you hear can just kind of talk to you passively throughout the day um and it can show you information contextually that's just not something that a phone can do i mean i guess technically you could walk around holding a phone like this but you can't really do that those demos have existed forever i'm always like i don't want my phone yeah so that's actually the main one um and i think all the live ai stuff it's interesting it takes on a different um like a different feel so we have live ai in the ray bands without a display too the kind of classic ray bands and for that it's audio only live ai so it's really helpful for when you're doing something kind of um by yourself if you're cooking or something then you know it can just give you it can it's watching what you're doing with the video and and you can ask questions about what you should be doing or it can give you tips and that's all that's all great but it's not really useful when you're in another kind of conversation and the thing that the thing i've observed with um the thought experiment i've run but also just wearing these is if we go through the world we have dozens of conversations a day um and in every conversation i usually have like five things i want to follow up on maybe there's like some it reminded me that i should you know do a thing or or it reminded me of a person who i wanted to talk to or maybe i'm talking to someone and um maybe they like assert some assumption that doesn't quite sound right i want to fact check it or like gut check it um these are all things i think with live ai you have this ai that's sort of running in the background and that goes and often does work for you and um and they can bring that context back whether it's asynchronously kind of offline when i'm when you're done with the conversation or sometimes like when you're in the middle of a conversation just usually you still have more context right then yeah how have you been using these someone your team is saying you text a lot through them yeah i um well i'm a texter i like run the company through text messages so um so when you're asking about what you know what can you do if you can't do on phone i guess you can you can obviously text on a phone we all do it dozens of times a day but i think that there's like a lot of times where it's just not socially acceptable to send a text message and so let's say you're in the middle of a conversation you want to like ask someone a question or get some information i have this like all the time i'm like having a one-on-one conversation with someone and i like i like wanted to ask someone this or like i wanted to ask someone else a question to like pull some context so i can ask this person what they think about i'm not like pulling my phone in the middle of a conversation um with this it's actually just super quick you can just like send a message in like five seconds get the context back like it actually just really improves the conversations that you're having i find it's um to me this is the one thing that i think is basically better about zoom than in-person conversations is that you can sort of multitask a little bit right it's like it's worse than basically like every other way than kind of an in-person physical conversation but the one thing that i think is useful is you can go from having a conversation to basically asking someone else a question it's not necessarily distracting it's additive right because otherwise your option is like all right um you have a conversation then you go check in with someone else then you have to go back and call the other person back a whole second conversation so just short circuits these things all the time and now i think this kind of brings the best part of that into physical conversations well you basically feel present in the conversation you can pull in whatever information you need it's super super yeah a real like holy shit thing about this product is the band i thought that because it was with orion the demo you guys had last year too and i thought at the time i was like there's something special with this band and you're calling it's a neural band is that right yeah because it's a neural interface so like it feels like it's reading your mind it's not doing that but it's not reading your mind what you're doing is you're sending signals through your muscular nervous system that actually picks up before you even make movements but um you it basically picks up these micro gestures and that allows you to control your interface um no matter where your hand is so it's not doing like hand tracking visually or anything like that like you have your hand by your side you have your hand behind your back like whatever in your jacket pocket um it's fine and um and the gestures are really subtle right it's like this is all i need to do to bring it up i mean this brings up my ai so i really like the music one did you um oh so the way when you're listening to music you adjust the volume is you just kind of oh the dial yeah you pretend there's a dial and you just turn the dial i did that with the zoom yeah you could do it on photos too yeah um that's like it feels like minority report when you do that it's like in real life it's a good interface yeah i think that's what you mean but yeah it's like not the weird part of minority reports it's just like where tom cruise is doing hands like it feels like sci-fi um yeah and i'm wondering why this band like why did you land on this band as the input for this because people have been trying to figure out input for glasses like these forever and it's usually voice or hand gestures or something but it's like i'm not gonna be in the subway like gesturing out into space so i think those are going to be useful too but i don't think that they're i don't think that they're complete right so voices is obviously important people talk to met ai they do voice calls they do video chats um so voice is gonna be a big thing but i think the reality is that a lot of the time we're around other people and for the use case that we really want to nail which i actually think is the most frequent and most important use case that we do on our phones is messaging so if you want to nail that what you need is the ability for a message to come in to not be distracting not be like center in your field of view but just be there um and then you need a way in whatever situation you're in to be able to quickly respond in like five or ten seconds um in a way that is not interruptive to your current interaction and is socially acceptable and doesn't feel rude and so then you get to okay hand gestures and yeah i think they're gonna be useful things for i mean in minority report he's doing a fair amount of that but for gaming and things like that i think you'll do that but like you said you're not gonna walk down the street like that right i mean that's that's kind of um pretty goofy yeah it looks it looks weird your arms get tired you know it's um much more informer than the latter in terms of reason why it doesn't work but the latter is also true um so we needed something that was basically silent and in subtle so the questions are there are a few options for that one that people are working on is basically whispering right so you can like sub audibly even um pick up on the sound or you have some camera that can like look at your mouth and do like lip reading that's still pretty weird in a meeting i agree yeah i agree so it didn't pass my bar for kind of subtlety even though it is silent in theory so i think like something you need to go for the neural interface and the other thing that's nice about the neural interface is you can get really high bandwidth input too um so it's not like you know with like you know smart watches today you basically like you know you can move your arm and it can pick up like a gesture too but it's but it's a very low bandwidth there aren't many things that it can do um you need something that can basically be reading the muscle signal um so you can control it very subtly and um let's do that i can i mean already i haven't like you know we're not that optimized i think we're gonna get the a lot better but i'm already i think around like 30 words a minute really yeah man i mean how how advanced do you think the band gets in its current form factor in terms of what it can do um i think quite a bit i mean basically today well i guess you have the sensors which can pick up the signals from your muscles um but then on top of that it's basically just an ai machine learning problem to be able to pick up what you mean by the thing and right now um it's not particularly personalized so um so you get it out of the box and it needs to work with certain gestures and you've never used it before so it works with these like like you're doing kind of it's like i mean this isn't a big gesture but i mean this is much bigger than what it needs to be in the future and then in the and then for um kind of neural text entry you're basically you can kind of think about it as if you have a mini pencil and you're just like writing out the letter but over time what should happen is that the ai learns your pattern for how you you know write each letter and you should be able to write make like increasingly subtle and invisible motions that it basically learns are your way of doing that letter or that input or whatever and i think the future version of this is the motions just get really subtle and you're effectively just firing muscles in opposition to each other and making no visible movement at all um and it picks it up so personalized autocomplete via your risk basically yeah so super fast because if you're not moving there's no latency from actually having to actually physically move and then retract after making motion um so i think the upper bound of that is very high the other thing is um and that's just for typing which is one kind of modality but i think you can kind of there are all these different dimensions where you can use it to input into things and you could control a hand in space that is like operating a ui right it's like there's um all kinds of different things they can do that i think will just be really interesting to get into over time um and you know we basically we invented the neural band to work with glasses but i actually think the neural band could end up being a platform on its own to basically just interact with all of your electronics and devices and do all kinds of different things once we kind of get it to be a little bit more mature and you could have an api for it that could theoretically plug into a smart home or something like that that'd be wild yeah yeah yeah the price point for these is also lower than i expected it's only like 800 bucks yeah um who are these for from a like is this an early adopter thing like you care about the cutting edge like this is for you you're not making a ton of these right i assume this is not like a massive going to be a massive thing for you it's more to see how people use this technology i mean i think this is going to be a big part of the future i mean my view is that you know there's between a billion you know there's between a billion billion people wear glasses on a daily basis today to provision correction like is there a world where in five or seven years the vast majority of those glasses are in ai glasses in some capacity like i think that's it's kind of like when the iphone came out and everyone had flip phones and it's like just a matter of time before they all become smartphones i think these are all going to become ai glasses and the question is all there are eight billion people in the world not you know one to two so are there a bunch of other people who also wear glasses i would guess yes i mean there are a lot more people wear sunglasses some of the time um so yeah i mean i think it's a big category um and there's a lot going on here i mean there's i think what you see when you're building products is that v1 um you build what you think is gonna be great and then you get a lot of feedback but you also didn't get everything exactly perfect in v1 so you know v2 and v3 just end up a lot better right it's not a it's not a coincidence i think that you know the first version of the ray-bans ray-ban stories um we thought was good then when we did a second version of ray-ban meta i think it sold five times more um and it was just refined right i think that there's gonna be some dynamic here where it's like you have the first version you learn from it the second version is just a lot more kind of polished and taken and it's in the software it's polished too not just the hardware and not just kind of compounds it gets better and better um and full ar that fills your vision that's still coming to yeah i mean we're working on all this stuff we want to get it all to be as affordable as possible um the reality is that the more technology you want to cram into the glasses the more expensive that is because we're putting more components in um we also want glasses to be as thin as possible and um that's a process of miniaturization that happens and similarly the more technology that you cram in the harder it is to make smaller so as much as we can miniaturize this technology it'll always be true that if you put half the technology and you'll be able to make thinner glasses um and some people have different aesthetic preferences where they'll want i mean like fortunately you know the glasses are kind of in style uh but you know some people want thinner ones like yours you can't fit many electronics you can't fit many electronics you can't fit your aesthetic choices in the future uh but um see on pricing we um i mean we did we work on getting it to be as affordable as possible and um you know our view is that our profit margin isn't going to come from a large device profit margin it's going to come from people using ai and the other services over time um because you'll pay a subscription for the ai or something or yeah or use it and do commerce or whatever the different things are that people do so um so we're not like you know a company like apple that is that whose primary or large part of margin comes from from having a large margin on the hardware um but in general yeah we try to make it as affordable as possible and my hope is that you know if we build another one of these hopefully it's even more affordable or with other choices we can make is put even more technology in it and keep the price point there but i'm here to have a few different price points there's gonna be the kind of standard ai glasses that don't have a display and i think those will sort of range between you know 300 to 500 or 600 depending on you know the aesthetic and kind of how high fashion it is um maybe even more than 600 if you get something that's really high fashion but that's kind of the range that we've seen so far from the the early ray bands to to some of the the uh open meta vanguards with like all the kind of you know custom stuff in it like uh optical lenses that can um with prescription yeah um then there's a category like this with the kind of a display that isn't kind of a full field of view ar display and i think that that's going to be yeah on the order of a thousand dollars like maybe you get a little better maybe it's a little more but you can call it in that area and then i think when you get to the full ar glasses um that'll be somewhat more to start and and i think people will just want to have the whole portfolio and the goal over time will be to get as much of that technology into as affordable and as thin of a form factor so you can just like as many styles as possible and so you've got these new oakley's and your deal with elsa elixatica means you can do other smart glasses with all the other brands right so i think that implies right that there will be future brands that have meta tech yeah so you see it as like building out a kind of constellation of all these different form factors and price points and that's the goal yeah what about all these other ai wearables that aren't glasses that are happening like there's a friend pendant i'm sure you've seen there's all these like display lists non-glasses devices yeah sam and johnny iver apparently working on something there's a lot of interest in this and i'm curious is this something that since ai has really taken off in the last few years you see opportunity there in addition to glasses or are you still just the main focus is glasses well our main focus is glasses because i think glasses are the best form factor for this for all the reasons that we talked about before um i think that anything else that you have to kind of fiddle with takes your attention away from the physical world around you um i don't think there's any other form factor that can see what you see here you hear talk to you throughout the day and generate ui and your vision um and then there's the whole augmented reality part about blending the physical and digital world but i don't know i mean people use different electronics so i mean i'm not gonna i certainly don't think that it's like in the future all eight billion people in the world are doing the exact same thing i mean some people use their phone more some people use a computer more some people use an ipad instead of a computer right some people you know primarily um you know watch videos on tv some people watch videos primarily on a phone so i do think they're gonna be different things um my guess is that glasses will be most important um i think something like earbuds is kind of interesting too i mean apple clearly is like by far the leader on that with airpods i think partially because they did a good job and partially because i think they gave themselves some um kind of unfair advantages with how they bundle it and couple it and have technology that works with the um with the phone that i guess they're now just starting to open up which is great but um but for a while i think it's made impossible for anyone else to build anything like the airpods um watches that are interesting um in some ways too and i'm not a fan of like the pendant thing the pendant trend that's kind of starting right now um i don't know it's a lot of startups doing stuff i mean i think it's an interesting idea i don't want to be just my point is that i actually think that they're my guess is that different people are gonna like different things but that glasses are gonna be the most popular there was no new quest this year at connect and i'm curious how you're feeling about the quest these days in vr mixed reality generally as a category it seems like glasses are really taken off there's obviously a lot more quests out in the world they've sold a lot more um but i'm curious you know they're not being a new one this year and also just how you're feeling about it these days like the category yeah no i think we're making progress on it i mean this year what we focused on was the meta horizon creation tool so we announced um meta horizon studio and meta horizon engine which are these basically foundational tools for creating worlds and content using ai and um and that's going to go towards making it so that people can create a lot more content um in vr but i think that's also going to be the case and um all that stuff i think should translate over to ar2 a lot of this content you'll be able to have there um and glasses that are their see-through may not be quite as immersive as vr but you can deliver a lot of the same kind of holographic experience and then um i think a lot of these things will also um end up showing up on phones right i mean and you know it's i think there's this huge opportunity with ai to you know you're browsing your feed on instagram and facebook and like it's like each story um should be its own world that you can jump into but like the you're starting to see some of this with some of the ai models for example like interesting glimpses of where that could go um but i think there's this real sense that the whole stack for how you create those kinds of immersive experiences um needs to get rethought it's not just going to be people doing things the same way that they've created 3d video games historically i mean that's a very very intensive um process where the tools are like very yeah yeah i mean yeah i mean so my my kids are kind of into our programming and into making things and you know we try to you know build different 3d worlds and i think some of the stuff is just like intractable for them right it's like it's i mean they're still kids yeah i mean so that's but with the um meta horizon studio which i've been playing with with them and and you know obviously you know this isn't primarily designed for like an eight-year-old to be able to use but my bar is if it's if it's enough that like i can kind of make something good with my with my eight-year-old then um that's pretty cool um you really can create all these interesting things right it's like you can you can define what the world dynamic is like what kind of you want the world to be if you want to put stuff in the world you can do it if you want to texture things differently if you want to change the skybox you can do that um if you like so i think it's um it's i think it'd be a very different way of creating things that's fundamentally a lot more accessible which will then unlock a lot more creativity and there will just be a lot more interesting worlds and things to do and that i think is going to be important not just for vr and ar but i think it's going to unlock all these experiences that billions of people will probably first see on their phones at some point so um that's what we're doing with the meta horizon studio work it's this kind of agentic ai flow where people at different levels of sophistication can go in and create really interesting worlds and immersive environments and um i think that's neat then we paired that with meta horizon engine which is basically this custom graphical rendering engine we've been creating for two years now um it's this project we've had to build from the ground up because you know previously we were using unity which is great but it's not really built for this use case i mean most games you know you load a game it takes you know 20 seconds to um to kind of get into the game which kind of makes sense because you're loading this whole 3d world that you now need to be able to interact with but we want the worlds that you can interact with to feel more like jumping between um two web pages or jumping between like two screens within a native app that's like really fast so the whole like okay it has to take 20 seconds to like page this whole new world into memory was not gonna cut it so we rebuilt we just built meta horizon engine from scratch um to be this graphics engine that can support rendering these kinds of worlds um with high concurrency and the avatar system photorealistic avatars and all this um with just a few seconds of low time so it's more like a website or just a transition an app and that's the kind of thing that'll make it so that when you're in vr you can jump between worlds easily it's not like some big commitment or some big decision you can just feel free to explore because um because you know it's not like you're gonna have to wait 20 or 30 seconds for the next thing to load you walk through the portal you don't like it you walk back through the portal the other direction um and similarly for things like within facebook or instagram having the ability to kind of see a post and jump into a world that's something that needs to have very low friction to do so the meta horizon engine is this kind of core piece of technology so yeah i'd say on the um on the metaverse side this year's announcements at connect were more about kind of software foundations than hardware um but you're still committed to the hardware yeah i mean the way we do the hardware is we don't have it planned so there's a new device every single year it's um we have multiple device lines there's sort of the higher end one where we um introduce some new technology and then we try to get it to be as affordable as possible so we did quest 3 then we did quest 3s but it's not like every year there's one it's basically um you know most years there will be a new one of one of those two and then sometimes there's like an off year where we're pretty much just tuning the software to get ready for the new paradigm got it okay so quest is still going yeah we're first okay i've been saving this i've got to ask you about this you know there is a tremendous amount of interest in your AI strategy right now unlike anything i've seen in the tech industry honestly well AI overall I think like what you've done over the summer with the hiring and the super intelligence uh you know mission that you put out and all of that yeah um and we've been talking about AI as it relates to the hardware throughout this conversation and you know AI was a part of my demo it wasn't i would say like front and center and it seems like a lot of the work you're doing now is to get ready for when it will be and i'm curious you know when i was here actually for the demo i got to see the pod of the new lab and see them at work they're in their cranking like you can tell and um i would love to know like maybe we can start here like when you decided i need to i need to change things and and why you decided to go about it the way that you did because i think that's the thing that people were like whoa like this is this is crazy yeah i think if you're on the inside it doesn't feel as crazy because you know the talent market is very small you know it's kind of rational if you look at the numbers but just a strategy like walk me through like when you're like okay i want to make a change this is what i want to do walk me through that yeah i mean this is an area that i just think it i think AI and super intelligence are the most important technologies in our lifetime um i think it's so important that it sort of demands its own hardware platform which is a big part of why i'm so excited about glasses because then glasses are going to be the best um hardware device category um to provide personal super intelligence to people but i think AI is just incredibly profound thing it's gonna change how we run the company it's gonna change how all companies run it's gonna change how we build products it's gonna change what products are possible um change how creators do their work right so change the content that that's possible um the mix of content all these different things so um i think being on the frontier there is really critical if you want to continue just doing interesting work and pushing the world forward i think if you didn't invent the mobile phone you can still do interesting work building apps but i do think at some level you can do even more interesting work if you can both pair the software with the hardware experience so um so we are definitely committed to being at the frontier in building super intelligence i think it's gonna be the most important technology like i just said and um and because of that you know i just think we're basically we're very focused on making sure we're building effort so over the last few years we stood up um an effort that was improving very quickly right so llama was a good initial academic project um llama 2 was a kind of good initial version of that as an open source release llama 3 was a big improvement over llama 2 um and then llama 4 introduced some important improvements over llama 3 too but um i didn't feel like we were on the trajectory that we needed to be on to basically like be at the frontier and be pushing the field forward and that was so you know like i think every company at some point um goes through periods where you're not on the trajectory that you want to be on something and these are decisions that you get to make in your life or in building a company where the real question is not like it's not like is there gonna be a moment where you feel like you're not kind of on the track you want to be on to what you do in that moment um and so i just decided that you know we should take a step back and build a new lab and um yeah part of that was informed by um by the shape that i thought the effort should be we have this real focus on talent density right and the idea is that you really want to have this is like a group science project right so you want to have the smallest group of people who can fit the whole thing in their heads at once and there's not many people who can do that no but you also want the group to be as small as possible right so there are some problems that we're working on around the company where like you can just have more people work on them and even if the marginal productivity per person declines you can just keep on scaling the net productivity of the effort um uh you know our feed and ads recommendation is an interesting example of this where a lot of people are just testing different improvements to the systems and if one guy sitting next to you um if that guy's experiments don't work that well it doesn't necessarily slow you down that much um but i think building these language models um is not that way right it's like i say it's a small group effort um you want a small group of people that can keep the whole thing in their head and do the best work that they can so each seat on that boat is incredibly precious and in high demand um you also don't want a lot of layers of hierarchy um because when someone gets into management their technical skills kind of start decaying pretty quickly if they were an ic um you know researcher a few months ago you know now if they're spending all their time kind of helping to manage then you know okay after after six months a year they might be less than the technical details than they were before so you kind of i think there's this huge premium on just having a relatively small extremely talent dense effort that is organized to be quite flat um you're very hands-on with this team well yeah i mean in the sense that i'm not like an ai scientist yeah but the thing that i'm sitting near you i mean it's clear that this is like yeah so the thing that i'm focused on is one getting the very best people in the world to join the team so i spent a lot of time just meeting all of the top researchers and folks around the field and getting a sense of who i think would be good here and um who might get a point in their career where we can give them a better opportunity um that's one piece another thing that i'm very focused on is making sure that we have um significantly higher compute per researcher than any other lab which i think we are just way higher on compute per researcher than any other lab today and you know as the founder and ceo and because we have a strong business model that can support this and we make like you know a lot of profit um yeah it's a reasonable amount um you can just call up johnson and be like more gps please um it's not that simple um i normally text him with my glasses but no but it's um but uh there's a whole supply chain that goes into gps are one part of it then you also need to build data centers and get energy and the other pieces of networking and like all so um and yeah but the bottom line is we're very committed to that and doing what we need to do to make sure that we have leading levels of compute so we talked about recently how we're building um this prometheus cluster which is going to be the first um kind of single contiguous gigawatt plus cluster for training that i think has been built in the world we're building this hyperion data center in louisiana that i think is going to scale to five gigawatts um over the coming years and um and several other of these we call them titan data centers they all have different titan codenames and um they're each going to be you know one to multiple gigawatts and um that's a significant investment i think it took a fair amount of conviction so i think unless you are um i think a bunch of conditions need to be met like basically you need to have a business model that can support it you need to have a ceo who like believes in this very deeply right instead they're just willing to like make that kind of investment for that um and then you need to have the technical ability to actually go build things and bring them online and i think we're one of if not the only company in the world that meets all of those criteria so um so yeah um i mean other people do other interesting things too but now i think this is very interesting the other principle though that we have for the lab is um you know it's a different effort there's a the lab we call tbd which um it that's what i saw yeah that's the that's the research lab um tbd was the placeholder name because it's kind of goodbye but it's like it's like a work in progress type of vibe um then we also have applied research and product um that in nat friedman's group and that team is working a lot of research that goes directly into the products um so things that may not necessarily directly be on the path to super intelligence like um you know speech that passes the turing test and things like that but are important for the products nonetheless um so we're working on all those things um and the research effort the tbd effort is truly a long-term research effort so one of the principles that we have for the lab is um is just no deadlines right so when so people are asking when are we gonna ship the model like my um this is very kind of it's a strategy and it's also the values that we're trying to put in it is um i mean all these researchers are very competitive they all want to be the leading edge um they know the industry is moving quickly they're gonna put a ton of pressure on themselves me telling them that something should get done in nine months or six months or whatever isn't gonna help them do their job it's only gonna put another artificial constraint on it that makes them sub-optimize the problem and i want to go for kind of the full thing it's like we're going for trying to build ai that can um improve itself responsibly and that can the more we're basically building these models that bring all these modalities together to deliver the kinds of experiences that we're talking about and um yeah i mean i think me putting a deadline on that is not gonna be helpful so yeah so i'm very focused on that's the nature of research it's not engineering it's not like engineering is when you know how to do something and you go and you need to put together a complex process to build it research is when there's several unknown problems um in ai i don't even think we have a sense of how many unknown problems there um for some like glasses we have a sense it's like okay there's like 10 areas of unknown problems that need to go solve like how do we get the right waveguides how do we get the right laser display no one's ever done this but like we can try 10 different things in each one of those and kind of run it forward ai i don't think anyone can definitively tell you how deep the problem space is um so it's very much research and that's fascinating um so yeah so what do you do to do that as well as well as possible you get the very best team talent density um make sure that people have the resources that they need and um and clear all the other stuff that comes from running a big company out of the way that's kind of my job for them yeah you're talking about the capex and the data centers you obviously see something on the other side of that that will weren't that being worth it um but i'm wondering do you ascribe to these these bubble fears at all that people are talking about that we're in this massive uh overspending getting ahead of the seas bubble and maybe a company like metal will be okay because you guys do have a core business that makes a lot of money but yeah how do you think about this bubble talk that has been going on for the last few months especially um i think it's quite possible i think basically if you look at most other major infrastructure buildups in history you know whether it's railroads or um fiber for the internet you know in the dot-com bubble um these things were all chasing something that ended up being fundamentally very valuable in most cases it ended up being even more valuable than the people who were kind of pushing the bubble but in each at least all these past cases um the infrastructure gets built out people take on too much debt and then you hit some blip whether it's a macroeconomic thing or maybe just have like a couple of years where the demand for the product doesn't quite materialize and then a lot of companies end up going out of business and then the assets get distressed and it's great opportunity to go buy more so i think that that it's not it's obviously impossible to predict what will happen here um there are compelling arguments for why ai could be an outlier and and um it basically just um you know if the models keep on growing in capability year over year and demand um keeps growing then maybe there is no collapse or something or something um but i do think that there's definitely a possibility at least empirically based on past large infrastructure buildouts and how they led to bubbles that um that's something like that would happen here um from meta's perspective you know i think the strategy is actually pretty simple it's um you know it's at least in terms of building out the infrastructure you know it's no one knows when super intelligence is gonna be possible it's gonna be three years five years eight years whatever it's never gonna happen but i don't think it's never gonna happen i'm more ambitious or optimistic i think it's gonna be on the sooner side but let's say let's say you weren't sure if it was gonna be three or five years like in a conservative business situation maybe you'd like hedge building out your infrastructure because you're worried that if you build out assuming it's gonna be three years it takes five and you've lost you know maybe a couple hundred billion dollars or something i mean my view is that that's a lot of money well no well i was gonna say in the grand scheme it is it is objectively a huge amount of money yeah right i mean did you just tell trump you're gonna spend like 600 billion i mean i did yeah through 2028 which is a lot of money it is and and if um and if we end up misspending a couple hundred billion dollars i think that that is going to be very unfortunate obviously but what i'd say is i actually think the risk is higher on the other side if you if you um build too slowly and then super intelligence is possible in three years but you built out assuming it would be there in five years then you're just out of position on what i think is the most important technology that enables the most new products and innovation and value creation in history so um so i don't know i mean it's um i don't want to be kind of cavalier about it and obviously these are very large amounts of money and we're trying to get it right but i think the risk at least for a company like meta is probably in not being aggressive enough rather than being somewhat too aggressive but but part of that is like we're not at risk of going out of business or something like that right if you're one of these um you know companies that can open ai or an anthropic or something like that where you know they're raising money is the way that they're funding their build out and you know there's obviously this open question of to what extent they can be able to keep on raising money and that's dependent both to some degree on their performance and how ai does but also all these macroeconomic factors that are out of control i mean the market could get bearish for reasons that have nothing to do with ai maybe something bad happens internationally and um and then it could just be impossible to fulfill the kind of the compute funding like the compute obligations i think that's it might be a different situation if you're in one of their shoes but um i think for us you um i think the clear strategy is it's just i think it creates more value for the world um if we kind of assume pre-aggressive assumptions about when this is gonna be possible it takes some risk that maybe takes a little bit longer do you feel like the u.s is in a better place now to help with this and help american companies succeed i think you've done a lot of work with this administration and when we were here last year you were saying you wanted to kind of stay out of it but it seemed like you realized it was the realization that this is just so important that i have to play ball with this oh well i mean the thing that i want to stay out of is partisan politics okay so um but i mean our we will always want to work with and have a good partnership and collaboration with governments right so um but that's gonna be especially true in our home country but it's also true in other countries around the world where we serve large amounts of people um the so yeah but i'd say yes i mean i think the this administration for a number of reasons is definitely more forward leaning on wanting to build out infrastructure and um and that has i think been positive and i think that aspect of this is um i think the next few years are gonna be very important for the ai build out and the ai infrastructure build out and i think having a government um which is important both at the federal level and in the states where you work that want that build out to happen is fundamentally a helpful thing yeah um there was a line in your superintelligence memo that you wrote where you said over the last few months we have begun to see glimpses of our ai systems improving themselves yeah i was really interested in that line what specifically did you see that made you write that well i mean one of the early examples that we saw was a team that was working on facebook that took a version of llama 4 and made this autonomous agent that could start to improve parts of the facebook algorithm and it basically checked in a number of changes that are the type of thing that like a mid-level engineer would get promoted for really so yeah so i think that's like very neat it's like you basically built an ai that is building ai that makes the product better um that improves the quality that people observe um t clear this is still a uh a low percentage of the overall improvements that we're making to facebook and instagram um but i think it'll grow over time so that's what that's that's um one of the things i was talking about when i said glimpses right i mean this isn't like okay the ai is improving itself at like exponentially faster rate or something like that it's like that what we're seeing are early examples of ai is autonomously improving ai in ways that are having a positive impact on the experience and that's how we think about superintelligence broadly is that it's yeah when you're there it's ai that is rapidly improving itself that's what it means or is that too similar yeah i think ai that can improve itself and that's that's beyond human level i think that there's there's this dynamic today where all the ais are trained on data and knowledge that people have produced so a lot of the systems seem to be kind of very broad and have all the knowledge of humanity um so maybe that's in some dimensions it might feel like it's smarter than any one given person and kind of the breadth of what it knows but um but i still think today the systems are basically gated on human knowledge and um there is a world beyond that right where i think you're starting to get into that with some of the thinking models where they can go out and solve problems in the future that no person can solve and then can learn from having solved that problem and and um the pace of that improvement to me is less important than um than just the process of it i'm not like a super fast takeoff believer because um in a sense i don't think it's gonna be okay one day it can improve itself and the next day it's gonna take over everything um i mean i think there's like way more physical constraints like it takes time to build data centers like if you a lot of frontier human knowledge comes from empirical experimentation right so you um if you're you develop a new drug you want to see a if it works and b if it's safe for people how you do that you run a test where you give it to a handful of people um maybe more than a handful but some statistically significant group of people and you observe how that goes for a while to see both whether the positive effects are kind of long-lived and whether there's any negative effects okay well if you're trying to run a six-month or a 12-month trial you can't do that in less than six or 12 months i mean maybe get a negative result sooner but you're not going to validate that you can get the positive result you're looking for without having done that test so i think um i think that's also gonna be true right there can be some things that maybe something that's like a super intelligent system can just intuit or reason from first principles using the knowledge that we already have but i think a lot of learning is going to be experimental and i do just think these things take time right so you have to run long-term experiments if you're trying to make long-term changes in the world and i think it's gonna be true for the ai too now maybe on average run smarter experiments um so per experiment maybe it'll learn more um i think it will probably be able to figure out some things from first principle it will definitely be able to figure out a bunch of things from first principles but i'm not like i'm not on the camp of people think it's gonna be like overnight this changes i think it's gonna be this very steady progression we're just making our lives better all right well uh it's gonna be a wild few years yeah mark i appreciate you doing this yeah congrats on the new show thank you appreciate it alex i enjoyed that interview uh but i have to ask how does it feel to have mark zuckerberg in your neuroband i hope he's not actually in the band but i guess we we don't know for sure but seriously thanks to zach for taking the time to be the first guest on access you can read more about what we talked about in my newsletter sources.news and uh ls will you plug yeah you can find me on twitter which i will continue to call twitter at that hamburger and uh at meaning.com access is produced in partnership with vox media please follow us we're a new show we need your support we need your follows hitting that notification button to get new episodes you can find us on spotify apple podcasts all the other podcast apps that i don't know about we're also on youtube and video please check us out there at access pod you can also find us on all of the socials at access pod smash that black blood smash it all right uh ls that's our that's our first episode we'll see everyone next week