Meet the Press NOW — April 17

If it's Monday, dueling fights made in Manhattan over Trump and the debt limit as House Republicans hold a hearing on District Attorney Alvin Bragg and House Speaker McCarthy heads to the New York Stock Exchange to deliver an ultimatum to the White House. Plus, the Justice Department accuses China of an unprecedented embrace and scheme to crack down on dissent inside the US and operating a police station of the Chinese government inside New York. And a deadly battle for control of Sudan, two of the country's top generals fighting for power, trapping civilians in the crossfire as the UN warns of a potential humanitarian catastrophe. Welcome to me, the press now I'm Kristen Welker, Congress is back from its recess.

But the big action today wasn't on Capitol Hill. It was in lower Manhattan in New York City today, House Republicans aggressively defending former President Trump as he faces criminal charges while also escalating a standoff with President Biden on a potentially catastrophic default on US debt. This morning, Speaker McCarthy delivered remarks from the New York Stock Exchange warning of the risks of rising debt and demanding the White House restart debt ceiling negotiations or else. Without exaggeration, American debt is a ticking time bomb that will detonate unless we take serious responsible action.

Yet how is President Biden reacted to this issue? He has done nothing. Mr. President, with all due respect, enough is enough.

This is not how the leader of the free world should act. Your partisan political games are provoking a very crisis you claim to avoid. Now, the White House argues that the partisan political games are actually being waged by Republicans in a statement they accuse McCarthy of quote dangerous economic hostage taking. President Biden has said he will not negotiate on this issue and is demanding a clean bill to lift spending caps.

Now, it's worth noting that without government action, the Treasury Department warns the US could exceed its debt limit later this summer, which could prompt an unprecedented default on US debt and throw the global economy into a state of widespread turmoil. Meanwhile, as McCarthy criticized, the current President, Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee held a field hearing just a few blocks away to bolster the former president, the hearing which on its face is about the issue of crime in New York under Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg comes of course, as Mr. Trump has relentlessly attacked Bragg for charging him with 34 felony counts of falsifying business records. The Republican members of the Judiciary Committee echoed many of the same attacks Mr.

Trump has levied against Bragg on his social media feed. Take a listen. The District Attorney Justice isn't blind. It's about looking for opportunities to advance a political agenda, a radical political agenda, rather than enforcing the law that the DA is using his office to do the bidding of left wing campaign funders.

He's taking his soft on crime approach to the real criminals. Mr. Bragg, I hope you're watching. I hope you're watching today, sir.

You're a disgrace. You're a danger to this country. And I will do everything I can in my power to hold you accountable. NBC's Garrett Hake is on Capitol Hill.

NBC's Ryan Obals is a Manhattan following that Judiciary Committee field hearing. NBC's Ali Rafa is outside the White House here. And I want to start with you. Speaker McCarthy says a House debt ceiling proposal is coming.

And I think the big question is how detailed is it going to be? Are you getting any sense of what is in this proposal? Well, look, it's the proposals to write work with some because that's where we are right now. This is not yet a bill, but it's the outline of where House Republicans think they want to go at least to get negotiations started in this proposal.

You see things like capping discretionary spending rolling it back to 2022 levels, building in the idea that you can only add to that spending by 1% a year. They talk also about unspecific changes that they want to make to some entitlement programs, things like snap benefits potentially changing the work requirements around that or around Medicaid. I'm being unspecific here because the plan itself is unspecific. And I think that's ultimately where this gets into some trouble.

McCarthy went to New York today to try to shake up this argument, try to make the point in front of a different audience that negotiations he believes need to resume with the White House. The White House and Senate Democrats have said, we'll negotiate to the degree we want to do that at all. We do have a real plan. So an outline is not a plan.

It's not something you can pass into law. This doesn't get all the way there. But McCarthy and House Republicans argue it's a start. And we should be talking and by the way, he just got some backup on the House floor from Mitch McConnell in his first speech back after suffering that concussion.

He's saying President Biden needs to sit down with a speaker. He's not going to basically jump in and help. He wants those two to sort this out sooner rather than later. Well, that is certainly an interesting data point today, Garrett.

And you know, we have spent so much time focused on how fractured the Republican caucus is. And the big question is, will Speaker McCarthy be able to get Republicans in the House on board with any plan or deal that he strikes at the White House? He was asked about that today on CNBC by our colleagues. And he says, quote, that he has the support of America and that he will ultimately get the party behind him.

What do you make of that response? What does it tell us about the state of play right now? Well, it tells me he doesn't have the votes yet. But I think that's also partly because he doesn't have a bill yet.

I mean, how many times and how many different contexts have we talked about the idea that you can't pass an outline? And that what's going to matter here are the details. What are those work requirements look like? How many people among the most vulnerable might get left without benefits or with reduced benefits?

That's going to make people particularly in those battleground districts that were always talking about, you know, I look first to the New York delegation, you've got all these new Republicans from New York state who won in Biden districts. How are they going to react to this? If McCarthy is going to force the White House's hand on this, he needs to at least make sure all of his ducks are in a row because any cracks in the Republican coalition will be certainly exploited by Senate Democrats and by the White House. Well, okay, and you take me to my next point, Garrett, thank you for that very smooth transition.

Ali Rappah, let me go to you at the White House because they were out with a pre-battle today before we even heard from Speaker McCarthy. What's the strategy there? And as Garrett notes, they're dug in on this issue, essentially saying, look, we're not going to negotiate, we're not going to have Speaker McCarthy back to the White House until we see the plan. Yeah, Kristin, what we heard from Speaker McCarthy today was widely anticipated from this White House.

And so what you're seeing now, I would almost compare it to that awkward period of time after you have a fight with a family member or friend where either side is waiting on who reaches out to the other first, except in this, in this specific case, there really was no fight, there was no argument because we didn't even get to that point. We know that President Biden and Speaker McCarthy haven't met in person or talked about the debt ceiling debate since they met in person in the Oval Office in February, despite several public invitations by the president to continue those discussions. So right now, we're really in this space where we're waiting to see how this continues. As you said, both sides really dug in here.

This White House maintaining this argument for months now that this shouldn't be a political football. This is a congressional responsibility that this should happen as soon as possible. And then negotiations on any specific budget cuts to democratic priorities could be negotiated at a later point. But you have McCarthy saying that he wants this paired any sort of negotiation on the debt ceiling to be paired with those spending cuts.

So the White House at this point, trying to get this behind them as soon as possible, because especially this proposal that we heard from McCarthy today to potentially delay this into next year and election year, certainly threatens this White House's plan to, as we know, we know President Biden is expecting to announce his reelection soon. The longer this goes on, the longer this potentially becomes difficult optics wise for this White House. So trying to get this behind them as soon as possible. Yeah, there's no doubt about that.

And there could be serious consequences, even if they get close to going over the edge with this rhinables, let me turn to you in York. That's of course the backdrop to this dramatic hearing that is playing out in Manhattan today, where Republicans have cast this as a hearing to look at crime in New York. And yet the inferences, this is about really putting D.A. Bragg in the spotlight.

Of course, the person who has charged former President Trump with 34 felony counts. So what were your big takeaways so far today? Yeah, Kristin, it's interesting Donald Trump's name was not on the agenda at all, but there's no doubt that this indictment against him, the future prosecution from Alvin Bragg in his office cast a long shadow over the proceedings today. You know, the Republicans that were involved here insisted that this was just about a big concern that they have about a crime on the increase all over the country, but specifically here in Manhattan, and they accuse Alvin Bragg of not doing enough to prosecute criminals that are responsible for violent crimes.

And they brought members of the community who were victims of these violent crimes who have a problem with Bragg. But you know, the idea that Donald Trump has nothing to do with this, I don't think anyone really believes and we tried to press Republicans today about if they would have had this hearing, if not for that indictment. Listen to how they responded. Hearing have taken place with Donald Trump.

I think this is my power for the witnesses. I've seen it a long time when this hearing had been taking place, had the district attorney not indicted. It would have been taking place, not whether it would have been today. I don't know.

So they talked around it a little bit. They said it would have happened. Maybe not as early as it happened this time around. Even if claim that they're going to do hearings like this all over the country and cities like New Orleans, Chicago and others.

But make no mistake about this. Of course, in this serves two companion goals for these House Republicans first, it gives Donald Trump the cover that he needs. It tarnishes the image of Alvin Bragg who argued today that the crime right here in New York is actually better than it is in some of the districts of these Republicans were attacking him, but it also allows them to put crime front and center as a campaign issue in 2024. It's one of the reasons that they were successful in 2022.

So you saw them kind of pushing in both directions today during what turned out to be a pretty contentious hearing here in New York City earlier today. Yeah, your second point cannot be overstated. It is on doubt. There's no doubt that that is a key part of the strategy heading into 2024.

Very quickly, you talked a little bit about what we heard from Alvin Bragg. But how did he respond broadly to these hearings? Well, we saw his office use his Twitter feed as a way to respond initially as the hearing was going on. He tweeted some of the statistics, the crime statistics that his office had compiled that showed a number of violent crimes that have decreased since he took office.

And then he issued a statement shortly after the hearing ended. And he said that it was a slap in the face that the way this hearing was conducted was a slap in the face specifically to New York City police officers to the prosecutors in his office and to the public service that are working every single day to keep crime in line. The one thing that we found in this person is that Democrats had two opportunities here. One was just to ignore this, treat it like a shideshow, pretend it didn't matter, or they could aggressively push back.

What they've chosen to do at least in the early stages of this back and forth is aggressively push back. And we saw that on display here today. Great reporting. Great interviews.

Ryan Nobles. Thank you. And before that, Garrett Hake and Ali Rafa turning now to the 2024 race, which we're just talking about Republicans rallying around former President Trump. Mr Trump received endorsements from four members of the Tennessee congressional delegation after meeting over the weekend in Nashville.

That group includes the state's two senators, Marshall Blackburn and Bill Hagerty. And it comes as most of Mr. Trump's so-called rivals for the 2024 Republican nomination continue to tip toe around criticizing him. Still, we are seeing some early fireworks.

The former president has ramped up his attacks on Florida governor Ron DeSantis for his past support of entitlement reform. And a new response from DeSantis's allies is hitting back at Trump. Take a look. Just being attacked by Democrat prosecutor Conduio Rink.

So why is he spending millions attacking the Republican governor of Florida? Trump stealing pages from the Biden Pelosi playbook, repeating lies about social security. Joining me now, breakdown, the state of 2024 Republican field is Amy Walter, publisher and editor and chief of the cook political report Amy always great to have great to be here. So let me just get your reaction to what we just saw.

So here is a group that's allied with Ron DeSantis. That's the key, right? We're not hearing that from Ron DeSantis. I mean, does he continue to kind of keep the gloves on as it were as it relates to going after Trump?

Is there any incentive for him to sharpen his attacks at this point? That's a really excellent point because remember we have both the answer going up for Donald Trump, which attack Ron DeSantis also not officially yet with the Trump campaign. They're also part of the super back. And these are super back ads.

The one thing that I thought was really interesting in that ad, it did two things, the one that you just showed, one, trying to give some cover to Ron DeSantis. So it seems pretty clear that the attacks that Trump and Trump surrogates have had on DeSantis on this issue of entitlements. And when he was in Congress, when DeSantis was in Congress, voting for budgets that made reforms to entitlements, it's taking a toll, which is why they were out there responding, tried to answer back for insulate. But the other thing that the tagline on this ad is what happened to Donald Trump.

And I think that is the needle that both DeSantis and those who support DeSantis are going to have to thread because it's not so much about, I'm going to be different from Donald Trump or we need to move on from Donald Trump. It's what happened to Donald Trump. He's not the same person that he was in 2016. He's looking out for himself.

He's focused on the rear view mirror. He's not focused on the future. It's such a great point, Amy. And you have to think about 2016, right?

And the fact that so many of his rivals didn't want to lay a hand on him because they didn't want to alienate his base. And that turned out to be basically glide path to the nomination. And I would anticipate that Republicans are struggling with the same dilemma right now, not wanting to anger the Trump base, those voters that they need. And is that the line that you expect DeSantis and others to thread?

Or do you think they are going to sharpen their attacks at like the first debate? Well, so this is a really good point. I got to a couple of strategists about this very thing. And one of them made this point earlier before this ad came on that yes, the best line of attack against Donald Trump is he's not looking out for you anymore.

He's looking out for himself, right? He's so obsessed with the 2020 election. All the things that he's done since then to enrich himself, he's not looking for you anymore. But your point is a really good one.

It's easy to say that or put that in an ad or types that in a press release, saying that on a debate stage when he's standing right there. That is a lot harder. And that's what we're going to find out and say with Donald Trump, his argument against DeSantis actually pretty effective about this issue of entitlement. But will he be able to stay on message or will he go into the name calling, which he also really enjoys doing when he gets face to face with.

Sure does. There's no doubt we'll see a whole lot of that. You know, it's interesting we learned that Mike Pompeo is not going to run. The other thing that really benefited former President Trump in 2016 was a very crowded field.

I mean, this field is starting to take shape. We don't want to pre judge it yet. It doesn't look like it's going to be as big as we may have anticipated. That's right.

As long as Trump is looking really strong. And DeSantis is the only one who seems to be getting any political oxygen. He's the only one in double digits in the polls. If you're an aspiring politician, especially a younger one, you say, you know what, maybe 2028's a better time for me.

It's not worth it to do this. But as we know, and again, I talked to a lot of strategists over the last couple of weeks, especially Republicans who have been in presidential campaigns and say, remember, there's always somebody in the field that surprises us. People to judge Rick Santor. Right.

You can go through the list of candidates that were at 2% in the polls. And no one was taking them seriously. The two front runners got into Rockham, Sockham, robot kind of fight and created an opening for a candidate who is different. I think that's where Tim Scott is trying to go.

Right. Which is I'll be the, you know, more optimistic. I will be someone who's not bruised up from the fighting. I'm going to be one that's uniting America, but also that I can unite the party.

So these dynamics are still very fluid, obviously. But I think you're exactly right. The field is going to be a lot smaller, which means that this fight over that let's call it 60% or so of voters who aren't hardcore Trump always Trump voters. That's a big pool.

A lot of voters and the fewer candidates. And you're right, it doesn't get split up in many ways. Very quickly before I let you go fundraising, the Trump campaign says we're going to have a windfall because of the indictment. You also have Nikki Haley, who her campaign said it, they raised about 11 million.

It was actually over 8 million. So that got adjusted a little bit. But what do you make of those figures so far in the fact that you know, Trump's been raising the most, but it's been pretty flat in terms of what we've seen. The one number we really want to see is Rhonda Santor.

We know what he raised before. We're all waiting for him to announce to see what kind of money he will have in the bank. I think that will be really instructive for what kind of money is out there for a candidate that again is not running as an anti Trump is well known who had gotten a lot of donor support before. But I think you will have individual donors who may end up saying, well, you might not have a lot of money in the bank, but I'd like you and I'm going to fund a super PAC for you.

And as you know, that matters as well as what's in the bank of the individual candidates. Maybe Walter, thank you so much for setting the table for us on this Monday. Making a smarter. Great to see you as always.

Coming up next to high profile senators return to the capital, but there is still one big absence on the Senate floor, leaving Democrats in a bind and new NBC News reporting on the Democrats 2024 dilemma. Who would be a tougher opponent? Ron DeSantis or Donald Trump? Our panel weighs in.

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Each office independently owned and operated. Welcome back to senators one from each side of the aisle returning to Capitol Hill this week after lengthy absences for health issues. We're learning leader Mitch McConnell spoke on the Senate floor today coming back to work more than a month after a fall that left him with a concussion and Pennsylvania Democrat John Federman is back more than two months after he checked into the hospital to seek treatment for clinical depression. But one key Democratic senator will remain absent.

California's dying fine sign the oldest senator announced in early March she was suffering from shingles. The 89 year old fine Stein has asked to be temporarily replaced on the judiciary committee. But two Republicans on the committee have already said they'll oppose that move. For more on joined now by today's panel, Eugene Scott, senior politics reporter for Axios Margio Maro Democratic Polster and Rick Tyler Republican strategist and MSNBC political analyst.

And we do want to know that Margie, you have done some polling work for John Federman's campaign. So we get that off the table. Let's start Eugene with the fact that Republican Senator Judiciary Committee member Marsha Blackburn is now the second Republican to basically say she's going to block Democrats efforts to try to replace Diane Feinstein. And let me read you what she says, I will not go along with Chuck Schumer's plan to replace Senator Feinstein on the Judiciary Committee and pack the court with activist judges Joe Biden wants the Senate to rubber stamp his unqualified and controversial judges to radically transform America.

Do you see any scenario where Republicans were lent on this issue? I honestly don't end it. Erwin said earlier today that he believes that they can find 10 Republicans who would be able to help them get through the process of replacing Feinstein. But I based off of what we just saw, I think they're more likely to be other Republicans who will side with black marinade and against her.

Rick, what do you make of this backfire for Republicans? What do you think? Look, the Republicans should replace her. But this isn't a Democratic, this isn't a Republican initiated issue.

You have Diane Feinstein, who's been elected since 1992, she has been a champion of the left's agenda. She's been a champion of the 1999. She wrote the 1994 assault weapons ban. She led on LGBT issues.

These are issues at the left and now all of a sudden all the left in the Democrats who care about all those issues just want to toss her aside because they want to get their agenda done. And I think it's despicable. Marty, let me just let you respond right there. I mean, look, when Republicans don't have public opinion on their side, which is what's been happening, what we saw in the midterms and what we saw in the Wisconsin Supreme Court case, they rely on political gimmicks and every Senator, just like every person when you're sick, should be able to take some time off.

You should have to agree with them politically in order to think that that's making sense. The Democratic process member, she's up next year. So we can't wait till next year. Remember, the voters of California elected her knowing she was 88 years old.

Now she's older. Now she's not gonna run. She's off a reelection next year. So she's not gonna remember and said, what do you know that process?

They want the governor Gavin Newsom to appoint their far left person because they know they can't get a far left person in a statewide election elected through a primary. So this is not about what's going on in Capitol Hill. This is about California raw power politics. Is it more to what he said?

March a black man said that she wants a block is because of how she feels about Joe Biden's nominee. This is not going to do with the primary. That's her response. That's not going to be Democratic side.

No Republican is called for her to step down step her seat. You do have Ro Khanna, you have Dean Phillips kind of leaving this charge for her to step down. I mean, do you think that more are going to follow suit? You concerned about that?

I don't know. This is a decision that's up to her and her family and her staff are called at a dereliction of duty. I think that's despicable. Let me play what Amy Klobuchar had to say.

She's trying one of those who's trying to walk a fine line. And I think it really illustrates the tough spot that some Democrats are going to take a look. If this goes on month after month after month, then she's going to have to make a decision with her family and her friends about what her future holds because this isn't just about California. It's also about the nation.

And we just can't with this one vote margin and expect every other person to be there every single time. So it's gonna be an issue as the month go by. But I'm taking out a word that she's going to return. Eugene, what do you make of that?

And you can kind of feel how uncomfortable she is talking about this. Well, I don't think it's as simple as people running a far left person appointed by Newsome. I think there are a lot of voters I've spoken with in California who are concerned that there has not been a clear date that has been articulated about whether or not Feinstein or when Feinstein will return. We don't see most people saying that she should be kicked out of the center right now.

In fact, we've seen a growing number of women lawmakers say, hold up now. We don't talk about this when they're men who are sick as we have seen as you alluded to earlier in this conversation. But I think people really want to know at the end of the day, will someone be in this position who can fulfill the responsibilities that voters sent this lawmaker to Washington to fulfill. The question really is also about kind of the spot that it is putting Gavin Newsome in.

I mean, if he has to replace her, for example, and the concerns that have been expressed with his camp about putting his finger on the scale of that race. Well, I think that's for, you know, for his team to decide once that's a once that something has to do. How important Rick is Mitch McConnell's return? Do you think how significant is it?

And is it underscore this disparity that some lawmakers are trying to argue between, you know, kind of the time that is given to male lawmakers to recover versus what we're seeing with time spent. Look, I think that's significant. And, you know, you just have to go over the Senate gallery and look down and see that we have a lot of elderly people who served their country and as lawmakers, but voters voted them in there. I'm glad that Mitch McConnell is back leading his caucus.

I'm glad that he's recovered. I hopefully that he can go forward. But Mitch McConnell is not up for reelection here or next year. He's up for reelection.

The following year or I think maybe the year after that. But this is I'll go back to it. I think this is about raw power politics in California because they don't want to wait anymore to fill the seat. Eugene, it's so interesting because the White House has really tried to stay out of this discussion.

And trust me, I've tried to bring them into it. This is an uncomfortable discussion for President Biden to be having. They have been very clear. Look, this is up to Senator Feinstein, but the idea of focusing on a lawmakers age.

Yeah, obviously, because you can't talk about it just with Feinstein and leave it Feinstein to your point. And that's why I think we're seeing not just the White House be careful. There are a lot of people who really want to be careful because to your point, if you just look over the Senate gallery, like, while Feinstein is the oldest senator, she's not the only person who has had health issues that has made her her constituents question whether or not she can do the job. Speaking of the White House, I do want to do one note on 2024, which is that they are watching this emerging Republican field very closely.

And Marjia, I wonder, from the perspective of the White House and from Democrats, who would be the tougher challenger in a general election? Would it be former President Trump or would it be around a Santa? Well, I'll say as a pollster, you should not even think about what the polls look like for a 2024 election. We have someone as well defined as Trump versus someone that people are still beginning to know.

I will tell you, and we've done now focus groups with younger voters, with younger men of color, with older voters, all kinds of different audiences. And you ask them about Trump running again. And people say, that's going to get me to vote to vote against him. I just had enough even Republicans say, you know, I don't think we can as a country handle this again anymore.

Even people who said I vote for him, I like them, I don't think we can handle it anymore. That doesn't mean that I don't think that DeSantis would be vulnerable. He has the same mean spiritedness that voters have clearly rejected. And I think that's whether you're talking about social issues or whether you're talking about how you view the other party, the sense that you are deliberately not trying to bring the country together.

That's something that voters say, I've had enough of that. Rick, what's your take? Look, I think the Republican party is very scared and they want to move on from Trump. They don't know how to because currently he would win the nomination.

And frankly, I don't think Ron Stannis has demonstrated at least of yet that he's up to it. Challeng Trump is the one alternative because he keeps failing that because he casts himself in always in the shadow of Trump. He's always reacting to Trump. He's always defining his issues based on what Trump is or is it?

And you saw that with the Ukraine issue where he stepped in on your crane, and then really backed off because he was realizing he's not being a leader and people want a leader. Yeah. All right, great conversation. Thank you all so much.

Eugene Margie and Rick really appreciate it. We want to turn now to yet another mass shooting in America sending another community into mourning. This time it's Dave Villalabama where over the weekend, four people were killed in 28 others were injured in a shooting at a 16 year old's birthday party. Authority's identified the four victims killed as Corbin Holston, Marsiah Collins, Sean Kivia Smith and Phil Daldol, 18 year old Daldol was on his way to play football for Jacksonville State on a scholarship.

Please have not yet identified the suspect or even shared if there is a suspect in custody. They also have not released any information on the motive behind the shooting. Now, according to the Gun Violence Archive, this is the 163rd mass shooting in this country so far this year. It is the 107th day of the year just to put this all into context.

So ahead, China's crackdown on dissidents on American soil, the Justice Department goes public with a sweeping new series of cases, including a secret Chinese police station headquartered illegally in New York's Chinatown neighborhood plus new details on last week's Intel Document League and the alarms being sounded by lawmakers in the wake of the stunning security breach. I am stunned that somebody at that level could have so much access. So the question is how did he get it and why did he do it? I have a lot of questions about why were these documents lying around?

Why did this particular person have access to the where was the custody of the documents and where they for clearly he was having access to documents that he should not have had access to and someone should have been paying attention tapping on the shoulder and ending that access. Welcome back this afternoon. The Justice Department announced three criminal complaints have been filed against a slew of Chinese government officials and Chinese nationals for what it is calling a transnational repression scheme targeting US residents, US law enforcement officials arrested two men for allegedly operating in a legal Chinese secret police station in Manhattan's Chinatown. They face charges of conspiring to act as agents of the Chinese government and obstruction of justice.

DOJ is also charging over 40 Chinese government officials and Chinese nationals for harassing dissidents here in the US by creating fake social media accounts to threaten and suppress those individuals. All of those defendants are believed to live in China or elsewhere. Joining me now on set is NBC News Justice and intelligence correspondent Kendall Laney and Ken. Thanks so much for being here.

So what more do we know about this scheme and what the PRC was up to? Chris, and this is a major move by the Justice Department to call out China for this behavior. And it's so interesting. People might say, wait a second, a police, a Chinese police station in New York City.

How does that work? Well, it turns out that China has as many as 100 overseas police stations in different countries across the globe, according to a human rights group. And the Chinese say that they are designed to provide services to the overseas Chinese community. But what activists say and what the Justice Department is saying is that often there are tools of repression to target and harass dissidents, people who disagree with the Chinese government.

That's what they say happened here. And then in the other case, you have a host of people accused of, as you said, setting up fake social media accounts, some in Chinese, some in English and trying to manipulate US public opinion. So really interesting case here. So could there be more of these secret police stations here in the US, given what you say that there are so many globally?

Absolutely. I think there's a great chance we don't know of anything right now. But I mean, there are other major cities with large Chinese populations and Chinese American populations. The government of China takes a position that all Chinese across the world are subject to their laws.

And obviously, the Justice Department does not see it that way. It's just extraordinary to think about. Let's turn now talk about the leaker 21 year old, Jack Tashira, who was accused by the US government of leaking these highly classified documents. And obviously, you have bipartisan calls from lawmakers demanding answers and demanding to know how this could have happened and how to prevent it.

Where are we in terms of trying to figure out whether he should have had access and if there's going to be a real effort to clamp down on how many people have access to these kinds of documents? Well, I think the Justice Department knows the answer to that question, but they haven't revealed it yet. Did he have lawful access or did he use his IT sort of administrative access to steal these documents? That's a huge question.

But whatever the answer is, it's very clear that there's some basic security failures here. That's one thing a lot of things we're talking about. But they're also having a larger, broader conversation about the systemic issue of wait a second, there are 1.3 million Americans with top secret security clearances. There's massive overclassification by one count.

The government classifies three documents a second. And so, you know, does the system need to change? And is the sharing of intelligence that happened in large part after 9-11? Did that go too far?

We know that the Senate is going to get a briefing this week. What are we expecting there? And does Congress have the capacity to take action to try to clamp this down? Or does this have to happen within the US government?

Yeah, it doesn't seem like Congress is passing anything these days. But the intelligence committees can put pressure on the agencies and they can do things internally. They did a lot after Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning leaked those documents more than a decade ago. They changed how security clearance holders are monitored.

But some people think it needs to go even further. For example, right now they cannot look at private social media like this discord platform where Jack DeShira is accused of making these documents. Some people think maybe they should be able to do that. Well, and I think that there have been so many questions about whether there is a broader issue with classified documents.

Yes, we have this leak. But we've also been talking about the current and former president vice president who have taken classified documents home with them. They have all claimed that they didn't intend to do that. But I mean, is there a broader issue here that lawmakers are going to have to look at?

It's a great example of how the system appears to be out of control. There are just too many secrets, too many classified documents and the government does not have a handle on it. And this is a great example of where it goes wrong. Kendall, you're uncovering a whole lot of angles for us today.

Ken, thank you so much. Great to see you as always. A key critic of Vladimir Putin who has survived two poisoning attempts now stands convicted of treason in a Russian court. We'll have more on that story, including how his now haunting words when he sat down with me the press.

Welcome back to us and it's allies are closely watching for signs of a growing alliance between two of the West's biggest adversaries, Russia and China. Russian president Putin met with China's defense minister in Moscow yesterday, less than one month after his meeting with president Xi. The two nations touted their military cooperation and vowed to strengthen their strategic partnership. Meanwhile, the G7 foreign ministers gathered in Japan where they discussed China's growing influence as well as Russia's war in Ukraine.

Recently, I spoke to Poland's Prime Minister and he warned that the war could go on for several years. Here's some of what he had to say about that and much more. Take a listen. Well, as you know, the leaked documents also appear to say that Ukraine's spring counter-offensive may fall short of its goals to retake Russian regions.

How concerned are you? The Ukrainian regions? Yes. Yes.

Exactly. The Russian occupied regions. How is that accurate? How concerned are you that you have to be honest?

I have to be honest as I said, Russia has strong army. This until very recently, everybody thought that this is the second strongest army in the world. And Ukraine, according to different rankings, had 20, the place number 24, 25. So the difference in power should have been much more visible, whereas the fighting spirit of Ukrainian soldiers, plus our support, the US, Poland, the United Kingdom and some other countries made them even stronger.

And they are really fiercely fighting in back mode and in of DF and some other places. But having said that, I do not underestimate the power of Russia either. And this is why I believe that the war can last longer and we should prepare for a longer war. One of the big headlines from these documents is that the US believes this war may last into 2023 and beyond.

Is that your assessment? I think so too, because Russia has huge and vast natural resources, human resources. They have patient society, patient public opinion. Actually, the public opinion in Russia support the Kremlin by and large, you know, the majority of public opinion or vast majority of public opinion supports Putin, not dissimilar to the situation in the 30s, when the German society supported public opinion supported Hitler.

This makes the situation of Putin easier because he does not have to count with the public opinion domestically, whereas the public opinion in the United States or in Europe is much more in young, they think that maybe the ceasefire at any cost should happen and stuff like this. So we have to work collectively on informing public opinion in the European Union and in the United States, how critically important it is to support Ukraine and Ukraine must win this war. The leaks also show that Ukraine conducted drone strikes in Belarus and in Russia. Do you think that's accurate?

And is that a violation of Ukraine's promise not to launch those strikes outside of the region? Well, a country of state and a nation which is so brutally attacked has to defend itself through different sorts of means. And I do not think that this is any kind of violation of any agreements between Ukraine and the donors of the weapons and financial donors. This was used in several cases and they are trying to undermine the strength of the Russians in terms of their logistics, in terms of their deliver of their weapons to Ukraine and from front.

So I don't think this was any breach of any agreements. So you're saying it's true that they struck targets outside of Ukraine. I don't have any specific knowledge about this. And they're just basing on your statement or your question and on the documents.

If they are true, even if they were completely true, I wouldn't think that this is a breach of any agreement. Let me ask you about China and its role. As you know, top US officials have expressed real concerns that China is considering providing lethal aid to Russia. So far, they say they have not seen evidence that that is happening.

What does your intelligence tell you and how worried are you about China? Well, I think this is a kind of red cross the red, sorry, red, red line Rubicon for the relations between the US and China. This is how I read different statements made by the US officials. China is in close cooperation with Russia.

Unfortunately, I don't know if you read or heard what President Xi Jinping said towards the during the farewell when he was leaving Moscow. He said something like that that now is the chance which was not there for 100 years that we can change the order which was created 100 years ago. Sounds quite serious. And I know that China is serious.

We respect China. It's a it's a very serious country. But but but also the engagement and involvement of the United States in this, you know, China, Russian relations is critically important. Some have called a marriage of convenience here.

Do you see it that way? Either the marriage of convenience or maybe, you know, first step into a closer alliance, which would be of huge job are the interests of the world. Let me ask you, we talked about fatigue in Europe and let me ask you about fatigue here in the US. The Republican House Speaker has said that he is not going to write a blank check for Ukraine.

What is your reaction to that? And of course, we're facing an election year coming up in about two years here. Do you worry if there is a change in the White House that that will impact sustained aid and support for Ukraine? Well, I am I am worried about the fatigue of the public opinion in the United States, which which is going to impact probably the thinking of many politicians in particular that early next year primaries begin.

And this can have serious impact on on the attitude towards Ukraine. The more so, I believe that this spring offensive and summer offensive is important and working appropriate negotiation, negotiating position by the Ukrainian government and President Zelensky is very important, because God knows what is going to happen later on. This is why I warn against, you know, the Russian patient stands towards this war in Ukraine. And our huge thanks to the Polish Prime Minister for sitting for that interview.

You can watch my full interview with him on MeethePress.com. In related news, a Russian court today sentenced prominent Russian journalist and dissident Vladimir Karamurza to 25 years in prison on charges of treason and denigrating the Russian military. Karamurza was arrested after delivering a speech to the Arizona House of Representatives last month, in which he denounced Russia's war in Ukraine. Today, he rejected the charges against him as political and compared his hearing to the show trials conducted under Stalin.

Karamurza has long been an outspoken critic of Vladimir Putin and previously survived to espionage as I'm sorry, poisoning she attributed to the Kremlin. Over the past year, he spoke out strongly against Putin's invasion of Ukraine, including an appearances on NBC, and he spoke with Chuck Todd at the start of the Russian invasion last year. Take a look at that. We haven't got a free election in this country for more than two decades.

The solo government is not representative, it doesn't speak for us, it doesn't speak for us to die. Those protesters who are on the streets of Syria's cross Russia today say that this is not my part. Other people are represented as a Russian people are Russian society and I'm proud of them. You described him as deranged.

Do you believe he is no longer a rational actor? And you believe that there are people around him that are nervous that he's no longer rational? I think he has to be a Russian actor for a long time, frankly, and you know, all the possible red lines of this regime across the long time ago, this is coming Sunday, February 27, who will be marking the seventh anniversary of the assassination of Michael's friend and Russian opposition, he was literally gunned down in front of the Kremlin wall in February of 2015. Other political appointments have been poisoned by the Russian states and doing the same thing to myself and to the others.

We have hundreds of political prisoners and more and more Putin is also being aggressive about just a lot of people here in Russia, but also to other countries as we see very spectacular here. Welcome back today. Secretary of State Anthony Blinken called for an immediate ceasefire between military and paramilitary forces in Sudan as fighting continues for the third straight day. The death toll from the violent conflict between the two groups reached at least 97 according to reports from the Sudan Central Committee of Doctors.

The group also reports over a thousand people have been injured as civilians are caught in the struggle for political control. The State Department has said it is not evacuating Americans and that US citizens are currently safe and accounted for. NBC's Ralph Sanchez has more on the violence. Kristen civilians in Sudan's capital are facing an absolutely dire humanitarian situation right now.

They are literally caught in the crossfire as rival factions within the Sudanese military fight street by street across our tomb. The official death toll around 100 civilians killed so far. But as soon as Doctors group is saying the real toll might likely much higher than that that there are in some cases literally bodies in the streets that nobody is able to go and collect as bullets are flying in all directions. There are reports from Sudan tonight that soldiers are setting up positions inside of hospitals making hospitals targets.

These are medical facilities already almost completely overwhelmed by the dead by the wounded. Now key sites of fighting the bridges over the river Nile which allow these different factions to move their forces across the city but also the airport. And that is the reason the US government is saying at this point it is unlikely that there will be an evacuation of the relatively small number of American citizens who are in Sudan. It is not at all straightforward for either the US military or the State Department to fly a plane into an airport that is right in the middle of the fighting.

And of course the Biden administration has very painful memories of the evacuation from Afghanistan where 13 US service personnel were killed by a suicide bomber at Kabul airport. Now in terms of diplomacy we saw a relatively rare statement from a united UN Security Council over the weekend calling for an end to the fighting. The Council of course largely divided since the start of the war in Ukraine. And we're hearing also from US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken speaking out on a trip to Japan for the G7.

He says the people of Sudan want the army to go back to the barracks. And what he's talking about there is that in 2019 the people of Sudan rose up they overthrew their longtime dictator. They tried to put the country on a path towards democracy. But in 2021 the military mounted a coup they seized control they really dashed hopes for a democratic transition.

And here we are in 2023 with these rival military factions turning their guns against each other. You essentially have the regular military fighting against a paramilitary group known as the rapid support forces. Now the African Union is trying to play a mediating role to end the fighting there. But what people in Washington are watching very closely is how some of the neighboring Arab states decide to weigh in or not weigh in paying especially close attention to Egypt, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia.

Kristen. incredibly volatile situation we know you'll continue to track it. Refs Thank you. And thank you for being with us this hour.

I'll be back tomorrow with more of the press now. NBC News now coverage continues with Holly Jackson right now.