Last summer the coolest place in the house was in your freezer this year It's time to level up reliance home comfort has over 160,000 five-star reviews for delivering the type of outstanding customer experience Canadians have counted on for over 60 years Right now, don't pay for 12 months on a featured air conditioner or heat pump calling the experts that know how to beat the heat Conditions apply see website for details beat beat boxing actually has hidden hope benefits. It can help strengthen and protect Your voice from injury see healthy living differently with manuelife visit manuelife.ca slash health Good Friday, and welcome to meet the press now I'm Chuck Todd reporting in Washington and what is a pretty fraught moment for this country former president Trump the current front runner for the Republican nomination has been indicted by the Manhattan district attorney It's the first time ever in this country's history that it criminal charges have been brought against a former US president We're going to dive into what this means politically in a moment But first here's what we know about the charges the grand jury's indictment remains under seal sources Tell me see news the former president is likely facing approximately 30 counts of document fraud related charges tied to those hush money payments He made back in 2016 he signed 11 checks maybe 11 times three gets you into the 30s perhaps counts things like that You can see where we're going here But we don't know what those charges are exactly and we don't expect to see the charging documents until early next week either Right before right after the arraignment. So keep that in mind when you hear the reaction coming from the former president his allies and his distractors We don't quite know yet. What's in this indictment right now the former president's lawyers and two senior officials close to the investigation Tell them to see news they do expect him to fly to New York on Monday night and at surrender to authorities on Tuesday morning When he'll appear in court at his arraignment and a replee on his lawyers appeared on the today's show this morning and said the former president is not Gonna take a plea deal and he's prepared to fight this case in court He initially was shocked after he got over that He you know, he put a notch on his belt and he you know He decided we have to fight now and and he got into a you know typical Donald Trump posture where he's ready to To be combative on something that he believes is an injustice his knees don't buckles of Hannah So I think he's now in the posture that he's he's ready to fight this the announcement of the charges have been a rallying cry among some Republican lawmakers and even among mr.
Trump's 24 rivals over a UN ambassador and presidential candidate Nikki Haley said the charges were more About revenge than about justice again. We don't know what the charges are drums top 2024 rival for a governor Ronda Santa's called them a weaponization of the legal system to advance the political agenda of a George Soros funded prosecutor again We don't know what's in indictment Trump's former vice president Mike Pence who recently said history would hold Trump accountable for his actions On January 6 also came to his former running mates defense on this topic I think the unprecedented indictment of a former president of the United States on a campaign finance issue is an Outrage, I think the American people are gonna look at this see it as one more example of the criminalization of politics in this country The message that this ends to the wider world is a terrible message about the American justice system And I would that this Manhattan DA would have thought better of it and put the interest of the nation first NBC News has learned that mr. Trump has been calling Republicans in Capitol Hill to further attempt to rally their support House Speaker Kevin McCarthy accused brag of election interference while also vowing to use his powers in Congress to help mr. Trump by going after the DA there's also talk among some of the former president's most ardent supporters including Congresswoman Marj Taylor green of organizing protests in New York City next week to coincide with the arraignment in a message this afternoon the Senate Sergeant in arms and Capitol police that they do anticipate demonstration activity nationwide But they did add that they had not received any specific credible threats Meanwhile, mr.
Trump has been posting on social media attacking brag and the judge that's been assigned to his case Now you think why is he already attacking the judge? What does he know? Well, this is the same judge that oversaw the Allen Weisselberg case for what it's worth He's also fundraising off of this and lamenting what he says is America's decline to a third world nation Should point out that while Trump is the first former US president to face criminal charges He's far from the first former leader of a liberal democracy small L liberal here for those of you not sure of how he's in this word to find themselves in court Which is what you might expect in societies that do uphold the rule of law for example former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi face 35 criminal court cases during his career was convicted once for tax fraud former French president Jacques Shorok and Nicholas Sarkozy two former presidents of France both have been convicted of crimes after leaving office and in Israel the former prime Minister you would all wear spend a year in prison for bribery fraud and other charges and the current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is on trial for those same charges that put a mare behind bars It's also worth noting how often Trump's closest advisers have faced our middle charges to name a few you start with this former campaign chief Oh, man of four his company's chief financial officer Alan Weisselberg his former chief White House strategist Steve Bannon his longtime political strategist Roger Stone And of course his former personal attorney and fix their Michael Cohen We'll also may be playing a starring role in the Manhattan DA's case In fact, I spoke with Cohen's attorney Landon Davis's afternoon about his client's role in this case and his safety I'll bring you that interview in a moment, but first let's get more on what we know and don't know yet Let's get right to our team of NBC News reporters that are on the ground with the very latest Dasha Burns is outside Trump's floor Compound I would be Talies in Capitol Hill and get good areas is outside the Manhattan DA's office. So Gabe I want to start with you Is there any chance we see this indictment before Monday morning?
Well, it's possible shot But at this point works back actually to see it on Tuesday when the former president is arraigned here at the building behind me And in your intro you mentioned some of what we expect to see the latest is we expect the former president to fly into LaGuardia on Monday And then take a helicopter from LaGuardia into Manhattan spend the night at Trump Tower surrender on Tuesday morning And then make his court appearance at 2 15 p.m. Eastern time on Tuesday and that is when we expect to learn more about charges in this case as We have reported several sources say that there are around 30 counts involving documents fraud But again, we don't know exactly what they are we expect to learn more there on Tuesday Chuck Gabe what else have we learned anymore about how many folks were brought before the grand jury like we haven't we have sort of We know certain people that appeared, but do we know everybody that appeared? Do we have a better accounting yet on that? At this point Chuck it much of a still remains in secret No the last several weeks there's been great anticipation, you know, you've seen the witnesses that were brought here towards the end, you know, Robert Costello, but Chuck, you know, we had we're getting all this indication that you know There was no likely decision, no likely vote this week And so when you vote happened yesterday took a lot of people here by surprise And I think it really speaks to the secrecy of this grant these ran jury proceedings So so many questions remain about those 30 counts and what exactly they will be you've spoken about them quite a bit You know centers on this, you know hush money payments to strong ganels But also sources now confirmed to us the prosecutors did ask witnesses about Karen McDougal and you know what the you know The the alleged affair between the former and played one model and former president Trump Which he of course not so a lot of this still in secret and of course the former owner of the National Inquirer clearly is an important Right there part of this David pecker very quickly.
Do you see police presence? How visible is it? Dave? Well certainly Chuck.
We have seen a very heavy police presence earlier today and actually throughout the day We've seen you know police here security barricades have been caught up Haven't put up and we have been told that the Secret Service is heavily considering how this is all gonna look next week This is of course unprecedented They will be involved in transporting the former president here The question will be to you know whether the judge may pose any travel restrictions that we go experts thinks that that is unlikely But it is already an operation that is under way between the NYPD and the Secret Service They are ready looking at this building to see how the logistical challenges of a reigning a former president of the United States truck Dave Goody areas on the ground for us in Manhattan, Gabe. Thank you. Let me go down to Palm Beach That's where we find Dasha Burns. So Dasha It's interesting last week This felt like a Trump team that was ready one that almost was like asking for the indictment This week they're acting as if oh our bluff didn't work and this is actually happening They seem to be a bit more nervous about all this don't they?
Well, yeah I went from a very sort of optimistic vibe where you know you had the former president actually praising the grand jury and now Taken by surprise Joe Takapito telling of Savannah Guthrie this morning that he the former president was shocked when this Came down as you talked about in the intro there Look, we know that right now the former president is in Mar-a-Lago presumably strategizing with his legal team Also, Chuck is spending a whole lot of time. It seems on his social media platform Mostly posting clips from Fox News from Newsmax where his allies are defending him and also attacking the Manhattan DA and as you mentioned They're attacking the judge that is expected to oversee his arraignment next week And while his legal team is focusing on the case make no mistake Mr. Trump is also very much focusing on the campaign you talked about the sort of optimism there I think there is a sense that they're still trying to push this moment as a potential Assist to the former president in his 2024 campaign especially when it comes to the primary Chuck look We've seen multiple emails in our inboxes over the last 24 hours with with fundraising and with you know They're trying to raise money off of this moment trying to rally support rally voters And as I've been talking to some of his supporters with some folks it does seem to be working There are people that have been drawn in by this event that are paying attention now to where maybe they weren't before right The question is this could potentially you know help him in the primary? This is a very different audience though that he's gonna have to play to when it comes to the general So it's a it's a bit of a risky gamble You know when you look at the months in between but when it comes to the next six months or so You know when you look at the primary season this is gonna suck up a whole lot of oxygen chuffed That's what is going to be fascinating is how his opponents try to navigate that aspect of things gosh the burns at Marlago Force outside of the compound gosh the thank you and Ali that brings me to you in Capitol Hill look We all I know it is not a surprise to Kevin McCarthy People like you George James calmer people that have attached themselves before to Donald Trump are comfortable sort of rallying around him publicly I'm curious are you hearing from anybody who doesn't want to go on the record or on camera?
Who's going should we slow our role here a little bit? I know Don Bacon seems to be about the other Republican I mean our House Republican surely want to attach themselves to him on this one Yeah, look Don Bacon is one of I think two or three lawmakers of the House Republican conference We've seen sort of if not pump the brakes and just say look let the courts work the way the courts are supposed to work Which is let's watch a grand jury play this out Let's watch what the actual indictment says but again those voices are pretty few and far between and I mean Even look for the fact that we have not yet heard from Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell Someone who has never minced words around the former president But who also seems to clearly be waiting for something maybe it's just to be able to read the actual terms of the indictment But most of the people who are in this building typically they're on recess now in perhaps the worst times news ever in that These people are now flung to win and we can't get their reactions in real time But most of them are blindly following the line that they laid out when the news of this possibility first broke last week Which is they are saying it's political not engaging with the substance of it And just saying that this is an example of another Trump witch hunt very few and far between and hard to find lawmakers on the Republican side who aren't saying that Our detail green says she's gonna organize protests in New York What's that gonna look like we have no details, but she had previously seemed to take more of a nuanced posture And now of course is headlong into saying she's going to New York to lead the protest I don't know if anyone else who's going with her certainly we've asked those questions But we're gonna be watching to see if there are other lawmakers who will not just you know Retortly go to his aid but physically fly to his aid in New York as he goes for this indictment I mean that would be I think a whole nother installation as we've watched them use their majority to try to bolster encounter encounter attack on this Bragg now using saying that they're going to support and verbally if someone would come outside the courthouse I mean that's just yet another escalation here. I know it's one of those things they're calling for protesters if protesters don't show That's probably good for law enforcement. What does that say something about his political sway, right?
There's a there's a lot to read into here as we've watched to see who does want to show up For Donald Trump out of Italian capital force. Thanks very much. Joshua Burns and Gabe Gutierrez also with some great reporting Thank you all for getting us started and joining me now with somebody who may have some idea of what's in this indictment It's Laney Davis. He is the attorney for Michael Cohen and he joins me now You've been in this grand jury room representing Michael Cohen.
He's not how many times has he spoken to these grandders So I've been in the room with the prosecutors for dozens of times and this group of prosecutors in the last six months But not in the grand jury room. I'm not allowed in the room. You're not in the room I'm in the adjoining Michael Cohen isn't it correct? I'm in the adjoining room some states do allow attorneys in but not in New York So I'm in an adjoining room and 90 will come out on a recess or if you need me Yeah, and we'll talk and I'm allowed to give him advice.
Are you are you able to get audio or no? No, no, I tried I was trying to What is your sense? We don't know what's ending up yet has not been unsealed There is speculation that it's 30 counts. Do we assume this is a couple accounts per check?
What is your word? We're doing this. I don't know it's really the first time I ever heard a number I'm not surprised that you would divide up a president of the United States Been a source of frustration to me because we introduced this at the Cummings hearing television writes a check to reimburse a crime Right and doesn't seem to be held accountable until now So if they're using those checks as separate crimes because it is the reimbursement of a crime You would think that would be a crime and I say crime and not to hear all names here That's what Michael Cohen pledged to and serve some of his recent time for that crime I would think that that would each of those would be a fraudulent payment misdescribed as legal fees which mr Trump I believe knew was reimbursement because his lawyer had mistakenly told the truth mr Giuliani and said it were reimbursements for the crime and how many total checks were there there were 11 checks for a $35,000 each one check at $235,000 Though the that was signed by his son and mr Weisselberg from the trust they realized they shouldn't do that and the trust was not supposed to be used for that So the rest of them were personally signed out of Donald Trump's and you've seen them a personal bank account There has been Some reporting that the Karen McDougal which was another woman that the former president allegedly had an affair with it Also, whose story was bought by the National Choir that that is possibly a part of this indictment what you're understanding of the interest By the prosecutor with the Karen McDougal situation So my caveat and I hope everyone believes me is I can't reveal what I know from being in the room with the prosecutors So whatever I tell you I know independently from my client or from other sources But not what happened within the room with the prosecutor And I'd like to talk about what happened in the room generally But the answer to your question is that Karen McDougal constitutes a second crime Involving illegally influencing an election through the use of hush money. That's the crime.
It was a federal crime I believe there are New York state laws that also make that a crime under New York You don't know for sure whether this is party indictment or whether this is a pattern of practice I do know that it is an independent crime that Michael pled to he pled to two crimes One was a hush money paid at the direction of Donald Trump according to the Southern District prosecutors at his at their direction at Trump's direction The other was Karen McDougal all Michael did on that was to do the paperwork that was a deal between I can now say it's a public fact right between David Becker the Controller or leader of National Enquirer Company and mr Trump directly and that deal was to buy her silence and that was called a campaign finance crime of crime of hush money to influence the election The reason I know that is that Michael Cohen pled guilty to that so the same principle would apply if Cohen is guilty and the Southern District Just let me actually I'd tell you out here. I'm gonna put up an excerpt from Michael Cohen's sentencing I'm not yet it gets to what you're about to tell me Please here's from page 13 of common sentencing them during the campaign Cohen played a central role in two similar schemes to purchase the rights to stories to Right with respect to both payments Cohen acted with the intent to influence the 2016 presidential collection that is sensing them And everybody should know that that added phase to influence an election makes it a felony crime now Joe Tackapina on the today show And with me last night you've seen what he said he said he would have made that payment regardless of whether there was an election That's obviously what he wants a jury to believe. How do you prove either case? So I've been hurting Joe Tackapina each time I say something nice about him I know he probably would not want me to but he's a good lawyer I've worked with him as a colleague and in other ways But he's unable to make that argument legally if you do something personally That's illegal or you do something with a company and I watch your interview of him And that's really dangerous But it's not a defense to a crime to say that he did something from personal funds or he would have done it anyway It doesn't matter the element of the crime is an intention to influence an election the Southern district found that Michael Cohen intended to influence the election By just doing the paper remember Michael Cohen paid nothing It was a national choir that paid her the money hundred and twenty five thousand dollars to buy her silence twenty five thousand dollars to buy The rights of 150 total and that was a crime according to the Southern District and it's a separate crime Do you is it your understanding that is David pecker a witness now for the prosecution?
So again, I can't tell you what I know based on what I know But I can't tell you that he has been given immunity That's a public fact he testified one time back to public back And then I read in the media that he appeared a second time after Mr. Costello But let me set one thing straight if you give me this chance go to our and that is the Costello testimony had zero impact Now Costello just to sort of let viewers know we're jumping around here Costello was a witness that the Trump folks wanted to bring before the grand jury about two weeks ago And he was supposedly gonna refute things that Michael Cohen set anyway go ahead Well, I say nothing here disrespectful. It's up to Mr. Costello to explain why he thought it was so important But I know from direct evidence that the grand jury well Let me not mention the grand jury.
I know that Michael Sat in a room for two hours waiting to be called in to rebut anything that Mr. Costello said that might have changed the status quo Of the facts of the case and all I care about are facts not the labels and after Mr. Costello testified We still don't really understand what he thinks was so significant about his testimony From what we understand it was that Michael and he talked and he tried to be Michael's lawyer and there's some emails Tames that are quite embarrassing for him. He said that Giuliani is my friend.
I can prove it to you Here's a voicemail message and he said that the president or Giuliani's quote client thinks very favorably of you So we don't know why that is helpful to mr. Trump in my mr. Costello thought it was but I do know that David Packer coming in I was not related to anything that was too contradict mr. Costello That's been said by many talking as it's just not true.
Did Michael Cohen have to come back? Everybody? Well, that's the thing that I interpreted the answer is no But we waited we were there for that there to do a rebuttal and the fact that they did not bring him before the grand jury Everybody I can actually say more than that now that it's done they came into our room the group of prosecutors We were ready. Michael jumped up ready to go in and they said we don't need you and I said it's the inference that he said Nothing that needs contradicting and they said yes Alan Weisselberg there's he's reportedly changed attorneys Do you know if he has been brought in before the grand jury is a wins?
No, I don't and he couldn't meaning you don't know for sure that he has or you or he has not I have some suspicions that he's not changed his decision not to tell the truth What I do know and there's certainly a substantiation for this and let me just throw this in right now Chuck Everything that Michael Cohen has testified to is surrounded by documentation and corroboration everything And if he's a witness at this trial, he will be a principal witness But his role is not to persuade anyone that he's telling the truth is anything he says we'll be back up with document Everything is backed up by multiple sort of whether you if you have skepticism about him talking That's what you're saying is it doesn't matter if that there's receipts the two things I don't understand I know mr Trump is famous for deflecting and changing the conversation and letting everybody repeat everything that he says and that's that's I suppose The skill but there's one thing they're getting wrong attacking Michael Cohen's credibility is missing the big picture as in a famous movie All the business man. What's the big picture wasn't the break in it was a whole gamut of things So a whole collection of documents emails text messages telephone calls the context of what happened in early October with access Hollywood All the way through after the Karen McDougal cover up my hush money So there's a full narrative here everything in that narrative is surrounded by corroboration not just documents But witnesses corroborating and that's why you're mentioned a mr Pecker I would just suggest to your audience ask yourself if there's a separate crime that mr Pecker was involved in and I'm leaving that up to everybody to decide if that's the case then his testimony was with mr Trump Michael Cohen was not involved in that crime. They did that between themselves he paper did and did the work But the actual activity was between mr Pecker and mr Trump you think it should be the work of the da or the work of the SDNY so really the SDNY acted in very very strange ways They used individual one rather than Donald Trump, but they did say that individual one instructed Trump to do the talking But why did they use individual one the memo and justice didn't require using individual one it only says you can't Prosecutor sitting president. Why did they bury the really significant revelations that he directed Michael if Michael does a crime in the President of the United States Nirex it was buried on page 11 of this long memo And then the big thing for me is if a president of the United States a sitting president sits in the Oval Office Right to check from his personal account that seemed to be illegal, which it was deemed in the memo to be Yes, this is an incumbent president Wouldn't you want to lead with that in the first page the answer to the mystery that Michael and I've been trying to figure out Why why did the Southern District act in this peculiar way read Jeffrey Berman's book and it starts to tell you the answer There was interference from Washington the attorney general and Jeffrey Berman in case your audience forgets with the US attorney Gets a call from the attorney general of the United States and tells him reverse the Cohen guilty plea What I said to Michael, why would they want to reverse your guilty plea because the horrible paper and that sentencing memo would now be Expunged final question.
There's a lot of concern about safety without a break I I know from talking to Michael Cohen that his life's been threatened multiple times and he's been dealing with it a lot But more so recently is the DA providing security for him and his family or not? So the one thing I have been told by Michael and I think it's important for anyone in the situation of worrying about security for family Is not to talk about it. So the answer is is the DA trying to protect We have indications that if needed Michael will get protection But I won't say what's happening now or but I can tell you it's it's we're certainly aware of that danger when mr Trump tweeted what he did. I don't care if you're for Donald Trump or not.
That's your political right But you should be saying whoever I'm for should not be endangering somebody in this situation has occurred on January 6 And that is what happened when he tweeted that protest protest. You've been a lawyer a long time You've seen a lot of things over the years. Is this an airtight case in your mind or is this going to be a tough case? So it's not going to be an easy case because they do have to create a novel law There is a state crime that I think is applicable and whether the judge says that right or not We meaning the prosecution say we but here's why I think it's a very very solid case Maybe more solid than any of the other cases everyone's missing this there's one question the jury has to ask an answer The illegal issue will be decided by a judge, but the factual question is very simple Did Donald Trump have any political motivation when he directed Michael to pay $130,000 to any?
That's only any okay now He has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt released to the prosecution has to say beyond reason Oh about that he had some political motivation his defense is gonna be no It was all about worrying about Melania Okay now I put to your audience and to any jury you decide whether that's a believable excuse Right certainly waiting to the very end of the election alone is an inference that there was a political concern There's lots of testimony lots of documentation about the political motivation if the jury says yes He had some political motivation in making the payoff if the law is there that's the verdict and they're the caveat at the end there The law is there. Lenny Davis who represents Michael Cohen. Thanks for coming in. Thank you.
Thank you Up next crime and consequences we got more on Donald Trump's legal and political future as the former president faces one This work indictment and if he gets another more history watch me press down beatboxing actually has hidden hope benefits It can help strengthen and protect your voice from injury see healthy living differently with man life visit man life Don't see a slash health Get the best of NBC news with a subscription you are adds deeper access and exclusive content and now during the XFINITY member celebration members can get an exclusive 50% off an annual subscription head to XFINITY dot com slash membership to learn more XFINITY imagine that subscription automatically renews each year at sixty five ninety nine plus taxes and fees until canceled Auburn ends May 20th twenty six prices subject to change visit NBC news dot com slash XFINITY for full offer terms and details Stay informed with the NBC News app We can use just coming in moments ago watch read and listen throughout your day and now unlock even more with a subscription It's the best of NBC news with fewer ad interruptions including ad free articles podcasts and full NBC news shows plus deeper access and exclusive content Let's just take a step back. It's more context and clarity from the reporters. You trust download the NBC News app now and subscribe for more Welcome back as we mentioned at the start of the show to fight all the reaction to the Trump indictment news We still don't know what the charges actually are sources say we can expect about 30 charges But what does that mean the exact details won't be revealed until the indictment is unsealed that is now likely to happen Tuesday The DA could on his own unsealed right now if you want to but we do expect it Tuesday at least the day that Trump will be arraigned Of course, this case is not the only one that faces the former president So with us to dive deeper into all of this is NBC new senior legal correspondent or Jared and Daniel Horr with a former Manhattan assistant district attorney And now a defense attorney specializing in fraud cases. So Laura, let's start with the Manhattan case here As we go deeper, but I do want to ask you where you think things stand with the other two investigations in Washington and Atlanta But let's start with this one What's the why would the prosecutor wait to unseal the indictment to laugh the arraignment?
Is this just prosecutor discretion? Yeah, it's totally in Alan Bragg's hands He could unseal it today if you wanted to sources have told us that they're not gonna do that and it's totally regular for them to unseal it When Trump faces his arraignment on Tuesday at least that's when we expect that to happen I think there have been some question about whether they would do it sooner than that Especially given the heightened public interest and obviously the media attention around this case We've been able to report about at least a rough number of counts And so you can imagine if Bragg wants to be in the driver's seat sort of dictating how all of this rolls out You can see them trying to get it out earlier But no indication that it's coming out today and we should expect it to come at least Tuesday, Chuck Laura how you know given that I don't want to say there's been some misdirection by the DA's office with them with the media But you know who knows what it is that look we all deal with sources. You think you've got it. You're not sure all this stuff How how much do you think we don't know here?
I mean where we've got questions about Alan Weisselberg for instance do we think he appeared before the grand jury or not? That's something we just don't seem to know Yeah, he could have gone in a different way considering that he's actually in custody right now But we don't have any reporting about that he was from the grand jury But it's supposed to be a secret process and perhaps he went in on a day that we just didn't notice We should know however that he switched lawyers not too long ago, which is notable But as far as we understand it his current lawyers are still being paid by the Trump organization So perhaps that doesn't enter to Alvin Bragg's benefit and we know about David Packer any but there hasn't been any I mean let me ask you this anybody involved with the Karen McDougal side of this story Did they get brought before this grand jury or just David Packer as far as we understand it We know that David Packer was there at least twice and that New York Times has reported the Keith Davidson who at one point represented Karen McDougal appeared before the grand jury We don't we didn't catch her on camera going in there It doesn't mean to say that other people who know about how that payment was structured But Packer is probably the best possible witness on that considering am I his previous employer and the place that he used to work Is the one to actually pay the money to Karen McDougal? Right, let me bring Daniel Horitz into this conversation Daniel You've worked in this office, so help us here If we do math individual checks and accounts should we start to assume that the number of counts and the number of checks Maybe times two or three here you got it Chuck That's exactly what they're doing and you know this particular crime falsifying business records which I charge many times when I was a prosecutor and if defendant is a defense lawyer It's an art and not a science. Let me explain what I mean in terms of charging You're absolutely right under the law each individual false business record can be a separate count or a separate crime So you got it right each check each invoice each entry in the general ledger and I'm up and if it comes up to 30 That's what you got now when I say it's an art versus not a science And maybe there's a little bit too much inside baseball My own view was if you I've seen prosecutors charge 200 of these kinds of crimes Where you've gotten many many business records and my view always was pick your top five and charge So but I can understand in this particular case right why each individual false record Pardon me the prosecutors would want it charge that as a separate crime You don't want to leave anything to doubt But I think you're spot on about what's going on here in terms of the number of counts if this is indeed where they're going This is something side dances could have done during his tenure.
Why do you think it didn't happen? I think there are a variety of reasons. I mean I think first of all during size 10 year The southern district was already looking at this case um And side had begun his investigation into the overvalued evaluation issues With the former president's assets and so they were pretty down the road on that And I think they were committed to that and obviously they not committed them. They went very far down the road They went to the Supreme Court in that case So I think there are a variety of reasons that relate to Resources wanting to stay out of the southern districts here as they were doing the the Cohen case And and I think it's as simple as that.
Um and that as soon as I will say that I've said since before I think that you know When Alvin took office when dade brag took office He and his team took a very careful deliberative look on their own About what they thought about the strengths and weaknesses of an overvaluation case and clearly made a decision that that's a case that needed more work And if there was this case and frankly it was right for them to start digging into at that point And also because remember um during most of size time Uh, don't trump was still the president. So you've got the department of justice He really only had a one-year window there where trump was a private citizen Let me ask you to react to something lady gave us that to me I said I said, you know, do you think this is an airtight case and he did Um, do you agree with him and how and do you I mean it? Alba reg's first job is to convince a judge that a crime is committed here, correct? Yeah, absolutely Look, I this is going to be a tribal case no matter what you think in terms of the the politics Um, you've got to prove that the president Not only made these records or had people make their records But that he knew these records were false and that he did it with the intention as lanny said for political motivation But as lanny also said you've got it would seem you've got levels of evidence.
You've got cohen You've got pecker You've got witnesses that the media have reported that include hope hicks kelly and conway You've got records and so you you've got you know, you've got what you need to get a conviction So you think a judge will let this go to trial you don't think this gets lost I don't think this is going to get tossed. I think that they've got good arguments on the statute limitations I don't think that the fact that the theory is new and untested. I mean I've said this before You know a long time ago insider trading was only a civil case And so when the SEC was founded in 1933 for about 40 or 50 maybe 60 years 50 years You've got insider trading handle civil case. Nobody goes to jail Bob morgan thought becomes the stone district u.s attorney and suddenly out of the blue Insider trading is now a crime and as we all know every day and every federal prosecutor's jurisdiction across the country Insider trading is a garden variety crime.
So I think the fact that it's untested. Yeah, that doesn't that doesn't trouble Laura, let me ask you as best you can what the Manhattan folks seem to telegraph at least within a wide range of a couple weeks How close they were do you get that same sense out of Fulton County and look the special counsel is a no-pake process So I understand that but what what's your sense of where we are timing wise on on Fulton County in particular and then also jacksmith So on Fulton County we understand it to be some time that this spring is our best sort of estimation Of course fanny will has had said it would be imminent That has not come to pass at least in the media's version of what eminent means it may work in prosecutors version of what eminent means But that one still seems like it has a little bit of work to go as for the special council That's a bit of a black box when it comes to what jacksmith is working on and what the timeline is But I shall I shall point out he's going after getting the testimony of the former vice president of the United States Which I by all accounts have reported out would be done at sort of the in-game That's not your opening salvo to go after pence's testimony And if in fact pence does not appeal that case and he actually testifies in front of that grand jury You might be able to see this case wrap up sooner rather than later Well, it's supposedly it was all designed to try to get this done sooner rather We're supposed to be an ex it's supposed to be expedited whatever that means To the wheels of justice lord chair our legal correspondent Daniel Horvitz the former man hasn't assistant district attorney Thank you both for your expertise reporting in perspective after the break the politics and peril of indicting a former president We're gonna dig into how the criminal charges are gonna impact 2024 panels next We have a criminal justice system in this country We have civil litigation And former presidents are not immune from being accountable by either one Welcome back. That was uh senate republican leader Mitch book on in 2021 after the second impeachment trial of Donald Trump He announced that he was gonna vote uh not to convict But now that Trump has been indicted some republicans are suggesting the criminal justice system is now unable to do this Many republican lawmakers and even 2024 primary rivals are jumping to the former president's defense Joining me now is my panel for this friday Susan page watching bureau chief of usa today Naveenayak the executive director of the set of american progress and macquarie republican strategist and former communications director because you see Well, i'm not going to susan first For this interruption because uh right i do want you to have the first word here because I feel like i've seen everything in politics and you've seen more than i've seen Look, we know we're an uncharted waters. How uncharted.
Yeah, choppy is just gonna get totally it's uncharted waters does not adequately Describe where we are now. I'm sorry and we don't know where we're going Uh, you know, we don't know how strong the diamond will be we don't know if he faces additional diamonds on the other investigations We do know what his stance is gonna be it's gonna be defiant Uh, he's gonna push back and that's likely to help him with his base and it's gonna undercut him All right, we're gonna refill that water here. Let me give you a second Mac gorman. Yeah, is this one of those ones this changes everything or did this change or what in the short term?
He's gonna raise a lot of money and that'll allow him to do more rallies Um, but look i think that what is the same as it was in this respect This will be a relatively holding pattern I don't think anybody's not gonna run for president that wasn't playing on running before or vice versa I think this will make you over the summer you lay the foundation you go to the early stage to get the support You need on the ground level and then the debates which I think it always was going to be it's gonna be trumpet asandist Somebody else have a moment that is still the operating theory. Yeah What does this do to debt limit? What does it do to washington in 2023? Yeah Here's who gets to decide I think at some level this becomes irrelevant if he's not relevant politically And I think the party continues to prop him up and make him relevant because as you pointed out at the start other countries other democracies Have indicted former president it's actually a sign that your democracy is working because in a democracy No one's supposed to be above the law and if someone committed crimes They should be all accountable and that actually should be a good moment for this country Because we've had a lot of moments where we've pushed the boundaries and nothing's happened not only politics but in other aspects They keep propping him up if he was just a former president and irrelevant politically it wouldn't matter And I guess that's the question I buy I buy this at short term Susan.
This is going to help him I just don't know what the weight of indictments plural and suddenly Be calm on him. Yeah, isn't it cumulative and so that people are unwilling to accept that everybody in the legal system Is that to get in for political reasons? And we think if there are indictments in Georgia and from the country also We think they will be stronger cases about more serious crimes than this one in in New York I'm not sure it takes this more supporters I think it makes it all but impossible for him to win a general action I think it makes it hard for republicans to challenge him in the primaries and it makes it impossible for him It feels like a checkmate like this. I don't know what republicans do Matt What does a campaign against Donald Trump look like in this environment?
I think a couple things I think hey, I really do believe whether it's Glenn young content crews Mike Pence They all are truly believe it's a travesty and some political kind of prosecution for one except for another So I think you go on a debate stage. You're not going to necessarily win a primary or really attack him on it I think they're all fairly agreed on how they view this so it will leave space for other issues And look I think whether it was before this after this I've said repeatedly You want it? There's no day who's ex-mocking here You want to defeat Trump in a primary you do it the ballot box And how does that shape out? We'll see, you know, but that is though still the way here it was last week it is this week What's the trap for Biden on this because there's a part of me that thinks he should have been more outspoken today in this respect It's a sad day for America hard stuff doesn't matter what you think But they're not gonna gauge it all and I get that but there's a whole bunch of people in the middle that are just Nervous and exhausted.
How does he talk to them without waiting in? I guess so. I mean, I don't think they're wrong here, but there's something here. This is unsettling We know who this man was, you know, he led an insurrection That was the saddest day when he was still sitting in the White House So I actually do think until we cut him loose and you know the country has now rejected him He's lost the popular vote twice clearly the American people don't want to be present I think it is incumbent on the Republican Party to decide that they want it and this is this is my hope not You know, this is I don't know the Republican Party, but someone has to actually take him on for his crimes I think, you know, we had that moment, January 7th, January 8th, where it looked like people were like, whoa, you crossed the line You shouldn't attack a country and vote meant an insurrection They all came back and they worry where you know, he's gonna be indicted multiple times And instead of actually following up holding the rule of law, they're all quietly attacking Not quietly attacking Democrats.
My theory in the Susan is I would be far in the descent issues who by the way needs a time out badly Take advantage of it. Am I like, you know what? Let him shadow box with these prosecutors all on his own Go crazy. I'm not getting in this race till the fall Well, if it gets if it gets so that Trump just seems totally beleaguered and unacceptable and Right, let him tell himself about the history of how Trump comes across even when he's in his most beleaguered state And as for Biden, it seems to me he's smart not to talk about this Why does he talk about the things that actually people actually worry about like going to Mississippi and talking to people who've had tornado damage or Dealing with some of the issues.
I think it's smart for him to look like he's governing about the issues that really matter to Americans Not engaging on this side child that I just I go is Why doesn't the argument work with with Republican voters? That's this we love we love what you did for the party We love how you've changed the course of the Republican Party, but at the end of the day He can't win and if he can't win, what's the point? How come that messaging doesn't seem to work with his supporters? What do you think I's a work?
Yeah, I think it's it's March March 31st. I think you're gonna hear some form of that among Quite a few people on a possible debate stage, right? I think you don't electability. I don't think it's the right word I think it's been clearly cared about I think what you say is winning in terms of winning the electorate winning over voters But also winning over Congress like you want you want to be able to do something right?
So you make winning broader than just 200 sending electoral votes How do you you know make it cultural? How do you make it legislative impact? And that's what that's what you look at successful governors. You're able to do that bush and others when they were able to talk about that Go ahead.
I was gonna say I feel like I feel like this is taking over again Everyone thought Trump would hang himself everyone thought Trump would and we're seeing it again And if the Republican Party wants to be relevant the minority party they continue to struggle They haven't gotten 50% of vote in a national election in presidential election for elections now They have got to be serious about taking on the man who's hijacked their party and no one seems I mean he's not going to put out a statement yesterday He's about the only one that seems to not have taken a taking a posture here on the indictment So I was thinking about when watching Kevin McCarthy not just say he supports the president But they're going to that the house Republicans were used their majority to get to sort of investigate rag The first thing I actually thought of is how does this fit the debt ceiling depending on the conversation? How does this impact negotiation? This is going to be happening while the atmospherics are over here And Republicans some of the best known on the house Republicans are more focused on defending Trump I don't think they have the stomach for the debt ceiling fight that others may have I just feel like the house Republicans are they're not in a very strong place here right now for those things Has Trump just sort of knocked that basically knocked that out? There's only one issue in the Republican Party and that's Trump and are you former against him?
And almost all the Republicans who speak out are with him No, I do I do think that is one thing that maybe a showdown that or a dog that doesn't bark Anyway, Susan of being a map. Thank you after the break President Biden is now answering a question about is it answering any questions about Trump's indictment as he's done today In storm ravaged Mississippi to show you some highlights next to the election We'll come back as we noted before departing the way us today President Biden was asked by reporters multiple times the way in on the indictment of former President Trump Who's also Biden's potential 2024 opponent each time the president gave reporters the same answer and he's not commenting on the matter President Biden and the first lady then traveled to Mississippi They're visiting some areas impacted by that deadly tornado that ripped through the state last week It's more storms threatened than the west and south of this country this weekend The president met with local officials and the Mississippi governor Republican Tate Reeves As he toured neighborhoods that were simply flattened by the extreme weather some very poor community That was hit folks roughly 300 homes of businesses were destroyed in the towns Yet hardest and hundreds more of structures suffered damage the confirmed death toll was climbed to 21 in the state One person also died in the state of Alabama President reaffirmed his support for the recovery efforts and pledged federal funding in his speech today tickles Today I authorized the federal government to cover 100% of the cost For removing debris and emergency measures that are about keeping up here By keeping shelters up and running and paying for every overtime for everyone 100% of the cost not for the state for us for 30 days And then after that we're not leaving either Have you seen his white-ass correspondent mike memlie joins me now and mike uh seems like he and governor reves Republican and that there was no didn't look like there was much politics that I say that in a good way No, that's right This is the first time president Biden has gone to Mississippi as president a state he lost by more than 15 points White House advisors often like to point out that he promised to be a president for all americans And he was going to whether it's his policy or the response of his administration To a crisis like this governed for all americans And this was a good illustration of that governor reves was very praising of the president welcoming of him Into the assistance that the federal government is providing and president biden returned that it's a scene We've seen play out even with the likes of rondis antis where president biden traveled to florida this summer They both again praise the quick response of the federal and state government the cooperation between the two and shop But we're not hearing of course from the president today is anything about the former president really It's useful here to have the experience having covered biden in the 2020 campaign Trump is basically baked in the cake This is how the white house tends to view these things that's it's notable the president's in the midst of this you know 20 state invest in america tour trying to tout the benefits of the chips manufacturing bill all coming at a time when they believe the number one issue Was going to be the economy in 2020 biden would make big speeches in historic places like warm springs, Georgia Gettysburg, pennsylvania at key moments, but otherwise it was an economic message And that's kind of what we're seeing right now against the backdrop of a indictment of the former president You and i've been given some strong hints that he's on the obama timeline for announcing his reelection That would be first week in may Any reason to think that that that slides given the current Atmospheric show we say there's a lot of reason to believe it might slide and that has everything to do with the fact the president biden knows There's no real primary challenge. There's no real reason to announce Earlier rather than whenever he feels the moment is finally right I will say there is I believe in the administration efforts to speed that up to get on to the right timeline But he knows there's really no reason to get in as early as it seems like like I said With the atmosphere because if you told me everybody decided on a fall plan Like we did oh some 20 years ago wouldn't surprise me at all my family Report from the white house horse Mike. Thank you before we go I want to share with you what the us army just released the identities the nine soldiers that tragically were killed in that helicopter Training accident during at Fort Campbell, Kentucky Wednesday night Just want to take a moment just to show you who they were And how they were and in some cases where they were from Jeffrey Barnes, H33 Corporal Emily Marie, Ed Bolanos, H23, Chief Warrant Officer Zachary Esperaza, 36, Sergeant Isaac John Gallo, 27, Staff Sergeant Joshua Gore, 25, Warrant Officer Aaron Ealy, 32, Staff Sergeant Taylor, Mitchell, 30, Chief Warrant Officer Rustin, Smith, 32, and Sergeant David Salinas Jr.
H23, they came from all over America folks, Milton, Florida, Jackson, Missouri, you name it, it was all over America In a statement the Army writes the whole division and this community stand behind the families and friends of our fallen soldiers The investigation into that accident is still currently underway That does it for this hour, we'll be back Monday with more media personnel It's here, the fort is a big deal, not yet The fort is a big deal, oh guys just wait, the fort is a big deal event is on Really? Now, hurry up to lease a 2026 Maverick XLT hybrid all-wheel drive for 197 by weekly at 5.29% APR for 60 months with $29.95 That's like $99 a week, the fort is a big deal event, visit your Ontario Fort store or Fort.ca