Nerdy Up North Podcast - True Crime

Hey everyone and welcome to another episode of the Nodioh North Podcast, the Nodioh Podcast, hosted by two northern nerds and one of your hosts Sam. And I'm the other hosts Paul. And we're joined, I dare you say a friend of the podcast now. A familiar face of the podcast, one of our first guests has returned.

Compared to our little faces now with the new conference and stuff. But yes, so we've got Sam's lovely system together joining us again. So welcome to the panel. Thanks for having us.

Yeah, Sam was like enjoyed it a lot last time. So like I said, we'll more on what I did have back on, especially with this topic. Like now with the Nodioh Podcast, delving a little bit off beach, going a little bit different, shall we say, going to have a chat about true crimes and how you feel about the explosion of the true crime genre. That seems to be taken off over the last, I'd say, year to two years.

And what's always been quite a big subject and a big talk and point. But I think recently it has hit new heights, especially with Netflix, taking quite a big charge on maps and now other things have been, especially with Sky as well launching it, especially with Channel 2 crime, which I never thought in a million years would happen, but it seems to be the way that's gone. So before we start as well, I know Sam always likes to have a little disclaimer. So I don't know if she's like prepared.

Yeah, it's really important on this one to add my usual disclaimer that all of the opinions that we, everything we talk about is our own opinions. If you don't like them, by all means, come and have a chat with us. But do not come and throw here comments out of us with regards to this topic, because it can come up as a bit of a sensitive one. Hit us on Facebook, hit us up in the comments on YouTube.

More than happy to have a discussion, but we are trying to keep the toxic levels out of nerdism and I apologize well in advance for my terrible camera quality and potential terrible audio, because I heard it on last week's episode and it didn't sound great. I will be back next week in my usual spot with my brand new camera that I am very excited to get tested out. So that's me disclaimer. That's all I'm saying.

If you don't like it, fair beans, which is come and have a conversation with us. Don't come in and attack us. I won't tolerate it. I know we've not had any here so far, so I'm not expecting any.

But like I said, as I said, it is a sensitive subject. There is a lot of raw energy towards the true crime of this thing, especially with some of the subject matter. We will delve into it and try and handle it as we can, because I say this is just our personal opinion about it. But also normally at the start, we would get the guests to tell us a little bit about themselves, but we'll kind of already do that.

We'll already know a little bit about it. Is anything else changed since last sportly? Not really. Still just at work, you're written on, still Sam's sister.

That's the one thing you can't read of unfortunate. It's the only thing I was because you do them on a night. I can have a drink. So it's kind of like a podcast now, so we say.

Yeah, that's it. Welcome to the podcast, even though I'm drinking orange juice. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, so I'll make sure with this one, because we're not going to do like the top five, so like say general nerd talk, it is just going to be like a conversation.

So it should be interesting to see how it flows. But I think the starting point of any type of discussion is basically how did you get into it? So what was your starting points to get into it? Like true kind of what was them and that drawages into it?

Like Zalasky's worth before I let you know about mine. I was probably similar. Probably. Would you say?

I would like. I was gone. I'm like, when did that? Because I've been watching crime stuff for years and I'm not like, I'm like, boom, what's in them?

And like, I'm not one of them people. But like, yeah, I just remember me and Stephen, my partner, would usually like flip through the channels and watch the crime channel and just be obsessed with like, snap women who kill. And obviously, I think we're going to be talking more about film, but it started definitely with TV. And yeah, so snap most evil, which I loved.

To catch a predator, which I don't even know if I can't remember what that was on, but. I don't think I was on in the UK. Catroped it was like an American show where the horse kind of just like stands on a desk and you tried to message in a 12 year old and it was like the most uncomfortable position you ever got in. I remember that.

It's tremendously illegal to because you're just in fact, and all these people. But I just remember watching that and then like finding documentaries and just going like full on through them. Like, I love documentaries. Like, I love every sort of documentary.

So that kind of, the true crime thing just went along with that kind of opposition. Like, it was just like everything. I would be like, is that what you're doing around this? And I want to do that in that.

And then I think I don't have a life. I don't want to do that. You're entering. I think mine was the late 90s because I heard of the West Memphis 3.

And then the early 2000s, I watched Paradise Lost for the first time, which means something I want to get into later on. But Paradise Lost is probably the first point of, I don't know if I want to say Obsession. I don't know if that's the right word. Yeah, I think it can be an obsession or like, some of you are passionate about something that always comes first.

I know when we start talking about episodes for the podcast, this was on your list. Like from the start, this is one of the things you've been trying to get us into from like the get-go. So it's always interesting. I know there has been quite a big boom in podcasts as well that do true crime.

But my starting point is a little bit more close to home. I know it sounds strange, but it was probably crime watch. On the BBC, I think it was 9 o'clock on Thursday or Friday night. And shit, that was kind of scary for a kid.

I thought it was the reaction, every creation and stuff like that. And I'm on the issue of it comes out. I know this person was attacked or this person was murdered. But since crime watches went off to the, yeah, you very, very hear anything in the news.

These is on crime watches actually on a morning now. Really? So it's not as fair. It's on a morning on the BBC.

I always remember, because yeah, I was like, you call watch crime watch as a kid and terrified the life out of myself. And I think I stopped watching when it hit too close to home and the Nikki Alan case came on. Ah, right. Yes.

And it's right next to where you live now, okay? That's where it happened, the block of that. Yeah. Yeah.

There was a year. The boned, where the bonded warehouses now? Yeah. And she just, she was meant to walk to a grandmother's flat, which was a few dollars away from where she lived and she never came home and it was terrifying.

And I think that's why I stopped watching it. I remember that as a kid, I was living in Rover at the time. And literally when the news broke, because that was a storm of the water from us. And for about, I would say, a month after that, nobody left the, no kids were out there.

It was like every parent took the kids to school. That's where I was only in primary school. So I remember, because normally I lived, literally five minutes away from the school, but for a month or two months after that happened, no kids actually were in their school. I just, your parents took you all your next old Navy took you.

It was quite scary time as a kid when that did happen. I can't remember hitting shiny like that to be honest. I don't think you're scared. I'm like a Sunderland's issue.

They can do all this. Yeah. You want to break it a sound, but she lives in Sunderland. I don't know what that would be.

It's like, it's just a way. Use our existence away from us. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a candy bus ride to get yours now.

So. Exactly. We're a German post court. So.

Yeah, that was right. It's a pretentious posh. Hey, me, not going to sunl it. I'll move to Manchester now.

I couldn't take it. So I know, come on back here. So I don't. I live in Rockland.

I'm proud of looking for something like that. I just live in Tm. That's a little, a little even like that. Well, yes.

I can still remember that when it was on crime, which was big news, but I don't think you hear any, any, I know when it does happen locally, but not as much these days unless it's like widespread or it's like a young kid, the hero as much these days. It still goes on, but it probably is not as in. No, no, no, it's not. Yeah.

We, the last one I remember that was local was in Pincher. Yeah. And I was coming out of a friend's house in Herriton, which is about a 10 minute walk from where I live. And we were, it was a Derby day.

So it was Sunderland versus Newcastle. And the streets were empty. Because obviously, Derby day, everyone's watching the match. And the police car came past us and asked if they could take us back to where we were going to.

Because a young girl had gone missing. And she was found in Pincher. And I think our stepdad or our dad was accused of it. I think he was, I think he wasn't charged, but that's the last time I remember a major case in my, in the area.

Can you remember it, Michaela? Yeah, it wasn't, it was like Sarah, I don't know, I can't remember the last time I talked down south, that she definitely was nowhere near us. That's the little talk. I was like, I'm not sure.

No, no, sorry. Just, I know it like it was like a name, wasn't it? You remember like her name? But unfortunately I can't remember her name.

That's right. Um, going back to, like, I was going to talk about this a bit later, as we're talking about local and, I'd say, general crimes in the north, at the moment. There was a TV show that was out recently, and I know it's in the third season, it's just about called Murder Town. I don't know if you've watched it, it's on the crime.

One of the episodes was based in Sundland. One of the, Sundland big cases that did come out. And trying to think of the name, because that last one, Cori doing, doing, you know, doing the, doing the, doing the, doing the, doing the, or walking around, trying to people and stuff like that. But, the Dunder case, I don't know if you can remember it.

It was the Stephen Greaves, the Sundland Shranger. And he actually, yeah, he actually killed people in Roga. He was, I think it was about five or six years older than me. And what he would do, he would take lads from school, get me splat, and make from the way of school.

And then Strangler and his flat, flat in Roga, and then take them to an allotment and set them on fire. Oh, I know. I've heard of this. I've never heard of that ever.

Yeah, but it was called the Sundland Strangler, but it was on a TV show called Murder Town. That's why I tell her, because it actually described him as a serial killer, because he killed more, I think he killed three people. I might be more. I'm not 100% sure, but I remember it.

I'm watching it because my wife, she is obsessed with anything to do with serial killers and stuff. So, I'm going to point out where I get a little bit worried, where I don't want to piss her off too much, because I might be under buried under the deck in one day. But it's on Sky still, the show, it's on the crime channel now. If you go under the website on demand, just type in Murder Town, it's got three seasons of it, with the Sundland Strangler, it's called.

And that was when I watched, like, not too long ago. All right, well, should we get into what we would class as our favorite? Documentary. Okay, let's run the book last.

Yeah? So, we'll talk about my stance on these kind of crime things, have changed a lot over the years, which I didn't go to in another time. But honestly, one of my favorite. So, your favorite one, Michaela?

I have many favorites. I'm trying to pick which one. I really love, like, the Thin Blue Line, which is a real Morris, don't you, Henry? I think I'm certainly saying my appropriate song.

I love, like, Fall Into Columbine, which is obviously it's about gun control, but it relates to, like, the crime of the machines and that. But the one that's really, I was like, that's how you do documentary, that's how you make something. Is the OJ Simpson one, the mid in America? Right, okay.

And so, I like it come out a couple of years ago, and actually one is their documentary of the Oscars, because they have these weird rules, like, if you play it a certain cinema, because it's a series. But if you play it at certain cinemas at a certain time, and it's of its length, like, it can be nominated for an Oscar. So, it was nominated for our best documentary, one for every reason, because it is absolutely brilliant. It's just, like, you think, oh, I know I'm on the OJ Simpson trial.

And it just goes into, like, why are you so big? Because I was born in, like, 89th, and obviously from Britain. So, we didn't really understand, like, that it was such a god to people. Like, this sport, obviously, it'd be like, a day of a second was something, and that's how shit I am at sport.

So, you're the best in that kind of goal. And just how, it just showed how massive it was. And then it showed just, like, the layers upon layers of how, you know, it was a race relation, but they actually used it, just got something, like, for it, because of what was happening with, like, the LA riots at the time. You're just going to, like, amazing details about it.

And then, obviously, what happened after, which I knew that he was back in prison, but what he was back in prison. But I didn't know why. And I actually felt like, at the end, it was like, well, that's shocking. Like, he went in prison for that, and he got in prison for murder, and he was like, that's who I'm on.

And it was just so beautifully done. We're, for our, our, our, another two, with respect to, and just like, social, just the social culture of it all. And it was such a good documentary. It's on Disney, plus at the moment, if you just want to watch it, it's a five-part documentary.

I'd say the first episode, if you want to understand how big of a god OJ was to the American public, the first episode gives you that, because it goes into his whole career. I don't even think- Yeah, it was absolutely huge. Like, saying, not just like being the American football star, it was even in, like, movies, like, it was huge in the native guns films and stuff. That's where my first introduction to OJ was.

But I'm not saying that one, I don't know what there's been a lot of documentaries about OJ Simpson in, like, say, the last, oop, in the last 10 years, I would say, like, the one- What's the one, though? This is the one watched, because it breaks everything down. It's like, every misconception you thought you had is just completely put right in this documentary. Michael was the one who introduced me to it, and me and I'm absolutely eared up.

It's nearly, how many, like, five hours or something, and it's worth every second of it. It is absolutely nominal. That was a good place that one, Michael. The ball of the Columbine can't, after reading Dear Collins' Columbine book, I can't get on board with that documentary anymore.

I can understand why, because the thing is, if people are documentaries, they take it as some people, not obviously, or take as fact. This is fact. This is a documentary you are telling fact. Well, actually, it's a film by Michael Moore, star and Michael Moore.

He's the star of it. It's his opinion. It's his opinion. I think a lot of people kind of really forget that point in documentary.

It's like, this is not fact. This is someone putting a story together. That's where a lot of these type of things as well, though, now, because that's the problem with the internet. As you say, with us three faces, I don't think anyone else will think out on the internet and give their opinion.

Sure, tell a story or say this is fact. That's the problem what we've got these is. It's not a problem, as I said, it gives us an outlet, but I think too many people do believe. It's the same fact and mentality as I had back in the day when I got it in the newspaper, it must be real.

I still have the time to do it. With Wall and Columbine, I love the gun control part of it, obviously, because it's everywhere, everywhere, anywhere, anywhere, it's like gun control is right. And at the time, the story about Dylan and, oh my gosh, he's an imp store. He got an imp store, he got an imp store, and the story of them too was two goth kids, you know, really badly done by, completely, you're not going to leave Bully to the point where they just snapped.

When I actual fact, that wasn't the case at all. They were not. If anything, they were the bullies, and they were one of them, Dave Cullen really puts more blame on one than he does the other. And what else the trench court map, the part of it where the media completely honed in on this trench court map, you're in the evilest of people.

And actual fact, there are a bunch of nerds who play Doom, who, when he was part of that crew, and they didn't even have participate with them at all. And that's why I don't particularly like it now, but I'm kind of backtracking on myself because I get, I get at the time, why it was like, I think at the time, it was Michael Moore's sensation, there's a mid-opinion, where he hardly's on agenda, that he was trying to, and I think there was one thing which comes across massively in that film. That's what the story was, because when what the media did, when after the shooting took place, the media went straight to these traumatized children, who were just being through an experience, and never in the 100 years or that would go through, and said, tell us about these boys, who are they, and they just started to be when shite, because they had no idea of what to say, and that became the narrative, that became the story. And that was why I wouldn't class one, I know in a theory, born of Columbine is a true crime in a way, but I don't wouldn't class it that way, as again, it's like, it's like, probably in the true crime.

Exactly, it's like, Michael Moore wanted to make a film, say, right, this is going to be me topic, this is where I'm going to pander towards, this is my agenda, I'm going to use these elements, that's why I've already got on board with us, but going back to what Michael said, again, the OGS Simpson one, the one I watched quite, not recently, it was a few years ago, was the American crime story, and the filmmakers of American Horror Story, who had Cuba, Good and Union playing OGS, I thought that was well done, and had David Schwimmer, as a lawyer. The one actor in there who did not look like the person who was meant to be playing was Cuba, Good and Junior, as OGS, because the rest of them looked like the one of the people that were meant to be caught. John Travolta was completely transformed, it was scary, but it was interesting to see how the prosecution saw this as a slam dunk, and then everything went on, and it kind of popped up and goes in, it was interesting to see that aspect, so that's why I like that part, but I will keep an eye out for that, when that one sounds a bit of interest. John, with me all at the moment, it is absolutely worth your time.

I feel like it's on BBC too, I could be lying there. Okay, but it is definitely worth your time. And my favourite documentary will always be the one that really you've got is, because I like crime, I always have, and I've been fascinated, ever since I remember picking up a bit of Jack the River Book when I was here, because I don't know if we're killing it, my dad actually gets interested in Jack the River, it used to be back in the day, and he had a Jack the River Book. I picked up a book, oh yeah, that, and what is it, the last crusade?

The first day, he was, he used to be interested in that, and I was fascinated then, but Paradise Lost was the first documentary, I think the second one was, I would try the time out seeing the first one, so the second one really explains the impact of the first one, because the first one is a documentary crew, who has the guy who does, has made some choice, choice decisions over the last couple of years, especially with the Ted Bundy documentary that he did, but the Paradise Lost one was him, the first one was them going into this small town of three kids who were arrested and charged for the murder of another three children, and it was down to, it was around the Satanic Panic, and if it wasn't for this documentary crew, we would never have known who the West Memphis three were, and Demi and Eccles would most likely be dead now, because these small towns have a tendency for doing shit like this, and getting away with it, and this documentary made you, that didn't happen now, the second and third one, are quite problematic, because some narratives get put in there. Do you want to do what they did at them? Okay. They do, they point the finger at people, and that's exactly what that sounded to them, kid.

Yeah, Mark Baez becomes the odd villain in the second documentary, because they pin, Mark Baez is a very complex person, and if you ever get a chance to read the Devil's Not, it explains how complex this person actually is, and he becomes a fourth-point, because he has a bit of a sketchy background, and it is what Michaela says, they do to him, what the town did to these three bodies, and in actual fact what they should have been doing, is look at it's among completely different, and West of Memphis, they focus on that. So there's two documentaries of the West Memphis three, there's Paradise Loth, and then there's West of Memphis, and West of Memphis is fantastic, because it shows you the work that went into getting these guys out, because they got kids when they got out, and they went into a plea, which has only ever been done once, which is called an Alfred plea, where they basically have to admit that they did this crime in order to get out of jail. It's backwards, it really is backwards, but it got a man off death row, and the still to this day, to this day, are still fighting for, because DNA, that they won testing, which was going to be part of the retrial, because these guys went to retrial, which they were planning on to before the upper plea, they would have walked off, and the state of Arkansas would have actually had a pair of them with shit ton of money, and the DNA they wanted to test was destroyed in a fire, and they are fighting over this. Are you moving about, Michaela?

I thought we dug with up there, but I was going to say if he was there, he was not. I remember this one, because I think with, actually I was a people we used to hang about with, we used to be part of the alternative crowd, so it kind of hit home, when this first came out, because it was quite relatable, not to say that we would get a chastised and accused of murder, it's just like- It was like a greenboard. Yeah, just because we were a bit different, we probably looked at it a bit differently, or tried a little bit differently to the norm, or what people expect as the norm. But yeah, it is quite a harrowing story of what could have happened, and what still does happen in American justice systems, today, just because even if you're deemed or don't have enough evidence, as in sticking, always say, circumstance for evidence isn't really a big thing in some of the counties, it's what a judge or 12 people can be misled to believe, if that's the scary thing as well.

That's why you'll never create a criminal crime or go anywhere, but I can potentially be able to get a crime in America. I'll see away from small towns in America, but West of Memphis is a more compact documentary. I mean, Paradise Lost, the first one is just phenomenal, because it's given you the information that you need. The second and the third one, I just wouldn't bother, because it is, like I say, it's very problematic, but West of Memphis shows you.

It's a good round up, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And it actually, it shows you the people who were actually involved, because Paradise Lost don't do that. I mean, we know the likes, if you know the kids, then you know the Johnny Depp was involved to a degree, but they used him as a focal point, where in actual fact, it was Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh, who were the main...

And Eddie Betta, thank you. Yeah, it was the beautiful lady there, who was one of the most harrowing statements in that documentary, when he said something about it was 30-odd, I was 30-odd when this happened, and I assumed a couple of years later, would be out and laughing, you know, things will be happy, and then I'm nearly 50, and we're still here. Yeah, but he's probably funny in it, because he's like, oh yeah, Eddie Betta, I'm going to get them out. Right, all right.

So was it a bit like that? Probably. Was it a bit like that? Well, that's fine turning up with the police, but I'm officially running up.

All my thoughts, that's... He's checking it in Portuguese. Yeah. Yeah, I know, I know more than he's been here.

Sorry, yeah. Yeah, but I think West of Memphis is definitely a better one. If you are interested in the West of Memphis 3, it's definitely a better one to look into, because it was into... It tells you what you need to know, as opposed to what a documentary film crew would try and put out there.

And I never used to be like the Paradise Lost Ones, which... It's one of the things that's... When you say it at the time, but it's... As we've said with documentaries, it's what they're showing you, what they want to show you.

I think with the recent one as well, like I made an American murder, they were showing... It's one side of you, I could never get it, but it was one side of you, on aspects where they were leaving out so much. So again, it depends on what the person who's given you the film wants you to say at the end of the day. But no, that's a good one.

I always think about going back to that one, but I keep looking at it and I think it's gone. It's passed the time, it's passed for me. Yeah, you know, there's an end in really, too. Yeah, but it's gone out.

Before you go on the artist's poll, West of Memphis is directed by Amy Dreyberg. And I think, like, obviously we're talking about, like, you know, films and that. And a lot of, like, documentaries are made by women. So I just want to give a little shout-out because there's two that I love.

And Amy Dreyberg's one of them, and she's going to deliver us on evil, which is a lovely documentary about Peter Villier. And we have a church, an open secret, again, a new Peter Villier in Hollywood. Absolutely, but open secret, absolutely, brought me to human being. Like, being an aunt, we were watching it and we were like, right, we need to, we need to put it.

Deliver us from evil to the same. Like, it's a heartbreak, but Amy is so good at getting to the nitty gritty of it, like, really getting people's true feelings. And there's no bullshit in our documentaries. And the way she styles them are perfect to follow as well.

I love that woman. She'll have to do a Janice Guelph in the moment. It's just a light in the mood of the day. I don't think the mood's going to be that happy and jolly.

I'm not expecting to talk about the goonies in this week. So don't worry. Yeah, if I can make a sense, because my love of, I say, true crime, I've always been interested, but I've never been like, say, a huge fan where I've dealt with deep internet. If there's something that interested us, I've always, I've always, I've probably since I've been with Nick that I've been watching more.

Now, my favorite one was a really weird one. It was quite recent as well. It was only in 2018. It was a four-part-iron Netflix.

I came out with called Evil Genius. So good. And it's shocked us as well, because the footage they used, I'd never thought going a million years, they would actually show what they did. So basically, the premise of this was basically, this poor Peter delivery guy got a bomb strapped around his neck.

I was called Robert Bank, and the place stopped him and, like I said, told me couldn't go. And he was like, I've got a timer. I've got to go and deliver this thing. Or get this bomb off me neck.

It's one of those. They didn't believe him. And what happens? The bomb goes off and blows his head off.

And the footage is actually in the documentary. It's a horror. I never thought I would actually show it. I thought I would have cut away or just explained it.

Don't watch the beginning of Paradise Lost then, because you see the first two second of Paradise Lost is the crime scene with the boys. You see the boys. No, no, but you actually see the element in motion. You see the explosion.

You see the guys who were. In the actual documentary, which I think, and it was all orchestrated by this very weird and psychotic woman who had these two men, like obsessed over and do all these things. And so she physically was a Charles Manson type, like a porch where she used a womanly wild story set to get these two blocks to do a bin and do a whiz. And this poor block, it was a delivery drive.

I think the study had special needs as well, bless them. And they took advantage of them. And then you, of them, because they hung out together and they wouldn't class on their friends. They were just like saying, oh, they would always have this guy around.

So the order of the pizza, the guy turned up and the struck this bomb around his neck and fallen like when they went back and they tried to re-care. So there was actually like a clues, like where to go for this guy. So we had to go on the certain place to get one key that would release part of the bomb. And that would give him an extra 20 minutes of sort to get to the other part to release the second part.

It was so evil, like to the word evil and cleverly done. But it was like something you've seen in a film that you've never, you never think it was real life. And I know it's American, all Americans are batchety at some points. But um, you're kind of like, not just our American listeners, by the way.

I've seen the comments on the Facebook group, all batchety crazy, don't worry. But the woman I was in her name was Marjorie, I believe. And I think from a young idiot, she was a quite attractive woman. But um, and I think, I'm trying to go recall it as well.

And one of the episodes, they actually killed one of our ex- ex boyfriend, who was a main-terre and the founder of him in the freezer. And that was how they actually caught two of the other blocks who was involved. But it was just bizarre and the whole build-up and like the whole idea of it. Or getting like, think they could get away with it as well.

That was the mindset. I was like, if I was going to run back, that would not be the way I would do it's actually not seen a plan, but it was just horrible in the ways I've never experienced. But I could not stop watching it. But what I don't like about most true crime documentaries, the repeats of over and over again, you get the same information, the same type of person who comes on and says the same thing.

Right? I found that with the Ted Bundy stuff lately that it's just a rehash. Okay, now then. Yeah, it's just a rehash of information that we've known.

We don't need to know about it's not really factual, but this was all new stuff. Each episode was given a new thing that leaned down a different path. That's why I found it was like so intriguing and quite interesting. And it was a perspective I'd never seen.

The other one again, I know I'm cheating by same too. The other one was the Knight's thought with Richard from Mervis. But the reason I liked the Netflix one, the recent one that I did, it wasn't from the killer's perspective, it was from the two cops who was investigating Mervis. And it was showing what they went through, what they did, and the elements, that side, that's what I liked.

It was new information that wasn't just glorifying the killer, which a lot of these true crimes things do, which again, I've just always sit well with me, which again, it shouldn't because I'm not a psychopath. But I like saying all the people's perspectives and saying what they went through, that's more interesting to me than knowing what was going on with the savior killer. Yeah. Well, first up is the evil genius one.

I remember one night, the Knight's swimming and Steven used to have flipped, flipped, and watch all these crimes, so you're not like on a list somewhere. But all it was was that this guy got a bomb strapped over and died, and that was it. Like no one knew anything else from it. So when this documentary came out, I was like, oh shit, there's an end in the list, don't worry.

I can never knew that there was an end in it. So that was really cool, in a crazy, horrible way. And the Richard Mervis was, this is when my nerdism is like on high alert, it's because they have talked many times about them all the time. And to me, it's kind of the same thing, like we can get into it.

Like the victims are talking about nothing to do with them, but it's the same thing, it's the same ego-tistical thing, like yeah, it's not in theory, it's not in theory, but it's something to please something. And yes, of course, they are not like, they're not the killer, but it's still this ego of like, what I did. And it's like, well, maybe we should pay more respect for the people that you tortured the murders. Yeah, let me put myself on the back a few times.

Yeah. The Richard Mervis won. It was the only interesting part, because obviously I've read books on Richard Mervis, I've listened to podcasts on them. I feel like there's nothing more than I would need in all the only one.

But I never knew how the community came together, and that's how he was called. Yeah, I didn't know that bit. I didn't know that bit. I didn't know it was a community came together and he was called that way.

It was pretty the shit out as well. As you would. As you would. Shall we go into the problematic part of these true crime documentaries?

Because I feel like Richard Ramirez won kind of leads into it nicely. Yeah, the only thing as well, I thought was quite interesting about the Richard Ramirez was the hotel he stayed at, was based on an Mexican American Horror Story hotel, and was... It was Italy, I don't know how to pronounce it over there, especially. And it's Cecil, I think it was called, but it was basically the hotel where the...

Nothing. Yeah, the other one. Well, we'll get into that one as well, because I have some calls for the country. Everybody would say we'll get into it when they think about any of it.

Yeah. Okay. And... Okay, bye.

I'm a bit of a bit of a good right now, because this is one of my major pet hits on true crime. Like I love true crime documentaries because you are getting the fact of a case. That's it. People can give their opinions, I totally get that.

This is this, I don't want to say the fun part of it, but the interesting part of true crime is giving your thoughts and opinions on what you believe could have happened. What I cannot fucking stand is internet flutes. Yeah. I hate these people.

And the Alis Alam documentary that they did on the Cecil Hotel proved my point to how dangerous these people actually are. Very dangerous. They were stupid lengths that went to, especially when the time and the hotel, they were elevated going down and stuff like that, saying it was impossible, this has been time and work. Because again, you met some of people's lives, I put in that cut, shit out there.

Exactly. Like who a guy? Like who a guy who is very different himself anywhere, who would have gotten criticism because just because of the way he looked, then gets a harassed and hounded to the point where, you know, he's suicidal because these people, these fucking idiots have decided he did this. You've got no evidence, nothing to back that up with.

Just your thoughts and opinions have managed to get this man to a point where he's on the verge of killing himself because of what you're doing. Now, they're at least a long one. You know, I think that's a little bit of human nature as well, because I think everyone's always had that element. If you even go back to the Salem Witch trials, it's the point I don't think there's a witch, burner.

But again, it's a different and knock-fitting into their pattern and fits into what they think could be their narrative. No, you're right, you're exactly right. It's exactly the same thing. It's just done on a more dangerous level because it's more accessible to everyone else now.

Their opinions can get out there to more people. And the Elise Lam case is, is, is, is heartbreaking. It is quite strange, but at the same, and I said this, I said this many years ago, she was bipolar. She looks like she's having an episode when she's in that elevator.

And she managed to climb up to there. She probably saw water, thought to herself, I'm gonna go for a swim. She took her clothes off. She put them on the side.

She jumped in and that roof was actually left open. Yeah. There's no, there's no nothing mysterious about it to make someone's done there. I know it is some weird freaky circumstances on it.

Yeah. But I think, I think that's the whole, you know, like going for the long thing of like, exorcisms and stuff like that. And like the ghost stuff and whether just like, oh, this and this and it's like, this is kind of just puts that narrative in like a modern perspective. Like, oh, it's creepy in that.

And it's like, I know this woman had mental health issues. Yeah. And that's it. That's not a story.

That's not interesting for people. No, it's not interesting. That's why that's why that's why later that would. There was one thing with these next lifts that really got me to the point where I felt, honestly, I felt like they're on something off me, Tally.

One of them turned around and said, well, I don't believe that she would have not taken our medication. The fuck do you know? What the fuck do you know of this person? Who, you don't know why personally enough to know that she wouldn't not auto-take her medication?

Like, oh my God, it infuriates us. That's the whole thing. Everyone's got an opinion on it and everyone makes it think that they're smart and everyone else, that's the problem. Yeah.

We've listened to cereal. We know how is shit? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, we, so I know Sam hasn't watched this. I don't know if he's what it's called. But I don't know if he's seen Don't Fuck With Cat. Can't watch it.

Yeah. So I watched it and honestly, I couldn't watch anything. It's a little horrible. I had my partner like, what's happening?

I was like, I'm full. There's a bit in it, again, with his whole editing and telling the story and telling the story you want to tell. It's just, it's just brush up because again, if you've not seen it, it's about these videos. This guy killing cats and he also does other stuff.

I think he taught us a dog and then he murders the person and filmed it all and these in their sleuths. Actually successfully find them and then he gets getting away and all this stuff. It is interesting. Don't get as wrong.

Your voyeurism comes out of it. But they completely brush under the rug that they found somebody with like that team. He did it. And he killed himself.

They just completely brush it under the rug. Like, oh, well, sorry. And that's why this thing is so dangerous. So if you are not a detective, you are not smart.

You're a dick on a computer like everybody else. Like, within that now being so accessible, everyone can be involved. And if you point a victim, that type of thing pointed at you is hard to wipe off the internet as well. And every corner, if you go in a job and you're even more serious now searching in.

So if it comes up that you've been accused of murder or accused of a crime, that's never going to go away. That never will disappear at that point. No, it doesn't. It ruins people's lives.

It's no different than these idiots who go out of their way to feeling like their justice warriors because they are catching these pedophiles. Yeah, I don't know. They have no idea what work is going on behind the scenes that they could they take one person out of a potential ring. That rings broken.

And they did that. And they don't give a shit because of feel that they are doing justice on this one person. When it happens, the police are probably got a team on who are working against thousands of them. But the problem I've got with that as well, it's not just the person, right, you're wrong with the person who they've got is guilty.

But in the broadcast, they're in picture. It's not just that person's picture that affects. It's the family in the background. It's basically the people that they don't know about because no one makes it even flexing, living in some and I've seen people's windows being put out.

I've seen people being attacked just being accused of that type of thing as well. And people's families don't deserve that. And although in the police do catch people who do these things rightly, they're doing it in a way where it's not broadcast around and the families can live their lives because it's not fair on them. They're not supporting them.

They're not part of that. That's the aspect I already find disgusting about that type of element. Yeah. So, throwing back to documentaries and throwing back to the pharmacist on Netflix, and it's kind of a bit like that.

It's about this pharmacist who loses his child. He gets murdered on a drug sale. And then he comes like a sloop in himself in his community. And he's like, this is happening here.

This is happening here. In the police are actually going investigations behind the scene that the FBI are doing this. And even if they just can't see anything, I'm just like, we've got it. Even things like this.

Yeah. And it's hard-breaking because it's just a father who wants to have just this reason and other people like that. And you just like, you can't do this. Like, it's very frustrating.

But it is a what I would say it's worth a watch. Complete agree. So yeah, it's quite interesting that you see with all these in their sloops out there and stuff. Funny enough, it's not a true crime documentary, but I'm starting watching you for sure.

Actually, I've been telling everyone about because it's absolutely brilliant. But the whole premise is these three characters live in a building, apartment building, and they're obsessed with true crime podcasts. And then there's a murder in the building. And the three of them come together to try and solve this murder by and do the on-board cast.

And it's called Only Murders in the Building. It stars Steve Martin's Martin Short. And so they know- I thought that's about! I'm going to watch that when I go home.

I'm going to watch this. It's a few episodes in now, but it's absolutely- I thought it was going to be a stupid duffed comedy, but it actually is quite graphic and serious. There's a lot of F-Bombs gets run about. Steve Martin, it's the best thing I've ever seen in a long time.

He's been quite a serious role. Oh, that's good. A little bit of a sad character. And Martin Short back together again, is just a jewel made in heaven really.

I can't wait. I mean, when I go home next week, I mean I'm going to sit and watch it because I'm generally looking forward to it. But there's as much as I hear it, Internet sloots with a booking passion. There's a really good true crime documentary called, Alagon in the Dark.

It's a sick, dark documentary series. I've watched the series, I've read the book, and all about the Golden State and the book is- the book is something else. I've had a slow reader. I was reading that slow because of how detailed it is.

The documentary- Did you put it in the freezer? No, it's sometimes I've watched the audio. Yeah, it's sometimes probably because it took a lot out of us. And it's all about the Golden State killer, and it is the work that- I've seen people know who the Golden State killer is.

The Golden State killer targeted the Golden State. And he was given that name by the woman who really took the initiative to research, not sloothed, but research. True to the journalist. With the journalist.

And she was the wife of Patanos Wall. And she was a true crime writer. She had a blog, and that got turned into a news article in the New York Times or something, which led to her book that she was writing on the case that she'd been following of a serial- Although the serial readers don't believe he killed anyone. But it's serial- I totally killed two people.

Did he? He definitely killed someone. I couldn't believe it. I'll be on the other hand, I'll be on the other hand.

I've tried watching this documentary. It's too slow. It's too slow. It's too slow going from the for my- It's too slow going from the for my- It's too slow going from the for my- I couldn't go through it as well.

And so yeah, he targeted women and eventually moved into couples as well. He was almost like a night stalker in a way because he always had a night. And he was more- He was very strange because he tried the house like his own. He would come in, he would eat out the refrigerator.

And if there was a couple in there, he would put the husband on his front with plates stacked on his back. And told him, you know, you might say, if he's plates smashed, he would whisper. He would disguise his voice. So he would whisper in a weird way to them.

And there was a town hall meeting because obviously it was- It started one in the 70s. I think so. And he was only caught a couple of year ago. But he- He was a town hall meeting and all these men were like, well, this guy came in tonight, I would do this, that and the other guy who got up and said that was a tack-note a couple of days later.

He was in that town hall meeting. He heard every fucking word that was saying about him because I believe he was a policeman. He was a husband. But Michelle investigated.

And she worked with the police. She didn't go out of our way to- to halt an investigation or to- She just wanted to help. And she was getting this information. Unfortunately, Michelle passed away before she could ever find out that it was caught.

And it was- The book is just phenomenal. I have, in all honesty, I try to block a lot of it out because it is- Yeah, pretty hard. Hard wonder to read. I thought that the Columbine book was hard.

That was just- it was on another level. The documentary eases what in actual fact the work she put into it. So I have a lot of respect for the likes of Michelle McNamara that I do for these internet dickheads who put themselves into investigations when they have no idea like Michelle knew what she couldn't do. No, but I think there's a difference.

Like I say, because I say everyone likes to think they're a detective in a way and everyone likes to think they're working out. It's when people put themselves in a position where they're hindering the situation or hindering the investigation. That's where, in my opinion, it becomes dangerous. But I say if you've got information or if you've worked something out and then pass that information on, I'll help.

I think that's a differentiator you can make. But again, I can understand the viewpoints for a lot of people. Again, the morbid curiosity of it all can be enticing to be involved to that level. And I think that you're smart enough to catch a sale.

It's one of the companies you'll have to check for all the type of things. He's always having a catch a sale killer so it's probably 99. But my biggest problem again, I've always felt uncomfortable. I think Hollywood does it work.

And it's been a big change in what I've seen in UK, like true crime, UK documentaries, where instead of America's call about glory, like glorifying the killers, like they had Saka Franklin, Ted Bondian. I know everyone said 10, but he was attracted to it. It was never that good looking. I'm waiting, my turn.

Always. Like I said, with the American style, it kind of glorifies the murderers. And it's a side note that the victims are, and all recently with the British ones, that there's two big ones that I've watched recently, where it actually gave you the victims' viewpoint and actually had victims in. One was theirs, Dennis Nielsen, not the David Tennant dramatization.

That one I think was on Channel 4, where the victims had survived or families of the victims, given their accounts, rather. I'd be interested in watching that because Dennis Nielsen really grinds my gears. He is one of the, it's almost like he did it for the infamy. Just like he loves to talk.

I think it was afterwards. I think from what I've watched, not just like he obviously had problems, but I think it was more, he didn't like to be alone, and he hated people leaving him. That was the element, that was the element, not because he always kept the bodies with him for a few years afterwards. So that was one of the aspects, but the other one, which was an old that's been done to death for the rivers, but it went back and showed how poor and how shit the police were, treating these women because they were a certain element of what they believed to be prostitutes.

Are you talking about the one that was on the BBC? I don't know if it was the BBC or I'd say. It's called the Augshire River Files, Truth the Crime Story or something. Because I really enjoyed that one.

Because it went back and showed elements from the families, again, of the victims and what the killing, what impact it had on them. That's the story that they should have been told, not because, and Sean Leitz and how bad these middle-aged, puffed the men, viewed women, and I really did upset us. And I know I'm like, say, I'm a middle-aged, should be white guy, thinking about, like I said, probably in the same dramatic as what the police were about then. But the way they just never even thought, give them a second thought, all the prostitutes had deserved it.

Not just horrible. Paul, you're ringing my bell. Yeah. Right, I'm going to step.

Go on. Right. So I have been a big predband forever and ever and ever, as much as I remember. And with like, publicly obsessed things, love, serial killers, like, oh my god, this is a bit.

I have even gone into step further and I'll admit it, because I fully do not agree with it anymore. Is that I've bought, like, murder failure before? So I bought an image from a guy who, like, killed this celebrity. And now I totally don't agree with it.

This is when I was a lot younger. And I just had this obsession. And it's not until recently. I don't know if it's just because I'm older now, in my 30s.

And I was just like, I can't, like, this just doesn't, I just can't, I can't do it anymore. It doesn't feel right, I think. Yeah, so like, so in my work, so I work in the arts. And at the minute, I'm doing an exhibition all about femicide.

So femicide is the murder of women by men. Now I've been doing a lot of feminist issues and that in my work for years, for years now. And this one, just, I don't know if they just started it this year, just, it's just like knocked it all into place. It's just like, I can't watch these documentaries anymore.

And it's because it's so glorified that this one person. And yes, there are women, there are women, serial killers, I do understand this. And it just kind of puts in the, it just breathes that misogyny of these women. And like, I think just because that documentary was brilliant.

I think we should have these many, but changed narrative. Is that one of them BBC, the one, the Yorkshire Files, I don't think it's called that, but first of all, directed by women and telling the stories of these women. Like I didn't even know the innit, so like they had like women getting murdered. Women, even if the web prostitutes, the weren't even prostitutes, it's just so much easier to see the prostitutes, even the Jack the Ripper.

There's a boot I've got downstairs, I think it's all five women. Not prostitutes, they had lives, they had family, and that one, that documentary, which is not in the BBC anymore, I don't know why you didn't find it, but it's so friggin good of how you can do it. I've shown like the racism in the police case too, because there was a black woman who came out first and said, I got hit by the head, he looks like this, and he's got a Yorkshire accent. Well, for how many hours were they looking for a macam?

Yeah. Because of them here. Yeah. And when they had a view from a woman, because she was black, a woman, and I think she also had the ability for them to fight now.

Not paying attention, how would pay attention to this tape. And just destroyed bags because of this. And the thing is, with it, they have started it, I can't stop now. They had these to claim the streets nice, because they were told you can't go out.

Well, having that these days as well, that's the thing. Exactly. That was the 17. Yeah, we're still having that now.

And again, I'm not going to hold my hands up and say, I understand what you're going through, because I'll never understand. Like, I worry when my wife was on the night out, and I always say, I get a taxi home, if she's getting the bus home, I'll wait at the bus stop till she gets up to bus. Yeah. I shouldn't have to do that, because I don't expect Nick to do that for me.

And that shouldn't be in this day in the age. And I think as a bloke, I'll never get into that mindset where you are worried about exit. That's upsetting. I'll admit it upsets me to think that we still in the world, where that's still not okay.

Yeah, at least I can say to you. That is a chance that you might not wait at the moment, and I don't just because of you. Yeah. And if people are laughing, who's just heard that for idea, they're giving out fucking riplons to people, and it's like they don't want to do anything.

What are we going to do? No, we can't. We had an incident at my workplace years ago, where women were getting attacked outside of my work. My work gave us a rape alarm, was using a security guard to escort us to the car park, because we had two car parks.

We had one, which is a bit of a distance. And actually to get to the car park is a dirt road that has no lights in it whatsoever. And this rape alarm that my work given, I know what they were doing, and it was good at the time, but this rape alarm was this big. And you had to pull the top off, to put the top underneath, to then spray something, to then pull it out to put the alarm on it.

It's like, I might as well just throw it at them. Yeah. We were taught at a young age, how to hold our keys in the position that could do damage. Yeah.

And we shouldn't have to do that. But pulling it back to documentaries and that, it just feeds into this fetishized vision. Yes, I said that went very well. And then I can pronounce it door.

Yeah. And these myths and monsters kind of being in it, saying, are these were boring ark people, who maybe had possible mental health issues. Yes, that's a different argument in itself in case. But it shouldn't be, we should tell the stories, but like that documentary, something a bit different.

And I know like the dinner, the dinner dinner thing or someone, who was more the one with David Tennant in, where they were like, what were we talking about the victims and that? I didn't personally see that when I watched that. Yeah, David Tennant one, that was all about his performance as Dennis Nielsen. Yeah, definitely.

I think it was Channel 4, Channel 5, run a documentary, Simon Teerity with the Dennis Nielsen one. And it had the victims on, the victims, like one of the victims, why you start the time had an argument, kicked him out, said, don't come back. And he never did, because he ran into Dennis Nielsen and when he was out, he was away. That was the aspect, that was quite interesting.

I don't get as wrong. I did enjoy the David Tennant performance, because no way to David Tennant portrait Dennis Nielsen in any good light at all. It was quite sinister. And it felt probably more like a horror film than a true crime.

And honestly, just don't get as wrong. You watch those three crimes. Like, that's the interesting, you want to get in the mind of people, like in that world. It's just like, they really have to be like, are you family?

They're still around? Yeah, and they've got a little free one. Still there. Yeah, and like you're watching fucking the 17th million Ted Bundy below.

He got your victory. And yes, he was so fucking unattractive. I don't get anything like, tell me, I like to practice. It was like, really?

He wasn't like, he wasn't clever as he made out as well. That's the thing. That's the thing. That was the thing that was what he was trying to do for him.

It was a white man. He can talk properly. And he was like, he can get away with it a lot. Yeah, he got a bit of intelligence about him and unfortunately about by it.

Yeah. One documentary that came out, the job version of who did the, um, there was a tip, there was a tip of Ted Bundy and the tip of Charles Mann. And I got raised recently. And literally it was just the same stuff that we've heard over the last 10 years.