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Get it? Join the 15,000 companies using Vanta to prove trust. Go to vanta.com/com Hi, everyone. This is Pivott from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. And Kara, happy birthday. I just want to say, you look amazing for 73.
I am a very attractive 57. I don't mind saying my age. I have very good genes. You're 57?
Yeah. Oh, Jesus Christ. That's so old. Oh my God.
That's ridiculously old. That is old. But I look good. I'm doing great.
I'm winning awards. I'm having babies. I'm getting married. I'm just on top of my game here at 57.
You are. Good for you. So I watched the series finale of Silicon Valley last night. Oh, yeah.
I forgot about that. And I thought it was, I actually think it was great. I thought it was just okay, but it stirs a lot of emotions when you have that type of investment in a program. And I was thinking, how do you develop an actual relationship with a media property?
I guess it's anything you make an investment in over six years. It's easy to get sentimental. Yeah, sure. And of course, you were in it, which sort of puck up the whole thing.
I'm everywhere this week. This is a good week for Kara Swisher. Literally. There's like no escaping you this week.
But I enjoyed it. Did you see the series finale? What did you think of it? I liked it a lot.
I thought it was very, very quiet. I love Alec Berg and Mike Judge, who did the show. And I was an advisor to it for many years. And it was made like $16 or something like that.
But, and I got a nice jacket from them pretty much. I would argue you deserve 17. I thought your contribution was really like right on the 17 billion. I agree.
I made more money from appearing on it. You get like $700 or whatever scale is, and you get to join the Screen Actors Guild. But I thought it was good. It was very kind of sad and beautiful, I thought.
I thought that was very sentimental. And I like a sentimental ending. I also watched, of course, the ending of Madam Secretary, which I also loved. But it's, I agree.
You have relationships with shows. I mean, I remember where I was when I watched the last episode of MASH. You remember that. And the last episode of West Wing.
The biggest TV event in history in terms of viewership, which shows you how much TV has changed. So let me ask you this. What is your favorite series finale episode? Or what series finale do you think was most moving or most attuned to most?
I found Six Feet Under. I thought Six Feet Under did that amazing. Word to your mother. That was my number one.
That literally blew me away. Blew me away. Yeah. Well, it's death-related for me.
And I was like, I love the idea of knowing how people die. Like that was the whole trick of the show at the beginning. You learned how they got their bodies, essentially, in their funeral home. But that just made me just weep.
And they had that song by, what you call it, Cia. Is that pronounced Cia? That was a beautiful song and everything. The whole thing was just, it just got me right there.
I watched it many times. You know, what's a close second is, did you see, I think it moves men more because it taps into sort of our paternal instincts. Did you see the season or did you watch the series Breaking Bad? No, I did not.
But I heard it was great. Yeah, the series finale there was really powerful. Really powerful. Yep.
Yeah. And of course, there's the famous Mary Tyler Moore ending where they all, where the studio gets sold. A lot of shows do it. And of course, The Sopranos is a famous, famous one.
That was awful. Which I liked. I liked that. I don't know a lot of people that liked it.
I thought there was something wrong with my cable box. I didn't understand it at all. They were fucking with you. They were messing with you.
Well, since we're talking about television and how much we love it, we talked last week that Netflix absolutely swept the Golden Globe nominations this year. I mean, they really did. They were just announced this week. You know, The Marriage Story did, which I haven't seen yet because I just got engaged.
So I'm not going to talk about divorce yet. But it was amazing that this might be the year a streaming platform takes home Best Picture. Morning Show was nominated for Best TV series, Best performance by Reese Witherspoon and Jennifer Aniston. So at The Irishman and The Marriage Story were nominated.
A lot of other shows like your beloved Game of Thrones were kind of zeroed out. So what do you think? What is happening here? Yeah, but they kind of lost all.
I don't want to say they lost all credibility with me, but The Irishman, really? I thought this was, you know, I mean, it was literally, okay, let's do the same movie and see how long, see how old we can cast young people as. It's just, I thought it was ridiculous. It was, I mean, they're just such incredible actors.
How young we can cast old people as because they de-aged him. They de-aged Robert De Niro in that. That was a bad use of technology, I thought. It just didn't work.
The whole thing just didn't, in my view, didn't, didn't work. But I think, but they're winning these awards. These are a big deal among the people of Hollywood. They're winning these awards.
Yeah, but what I take away from all of this, Kara, is that over the long term, there's no core competence like capital. And that is culture, creativity, can hold the wolves at the door for a while and hopefully use that to go and access capital. But if you think about, I mean, I'm just such an enormous fan of HBO, but because, and HBO's creativity, either didn't, because it was second, a much bigger company, did it translate to the kind of cheap capital? No, that they could increase their spending and go toe-to-toe with these guys.
And now I think they're totally screwing up and I've talked about it too much. But over the long term, it's just really difficult to compete with someone who has six times the capital of you. And Netflix is spending $12 or $13 billion a year versus $2. I feel like there should be a second award ceremony that's ROI and that is how much you spend per Emmy.
So HBO spends something like one-eighth the amount per Emmy that a Netflix or an Amazon Prime has to spend to figure out creativity. But here's the thing, they're closing the gap. They're figuring it out. Capital, very hard to compete with cheap capital over the long term.
It is, 100%. Especially in this area because people in Hollywood are so rapaciously interested in money in that way. And they'll move wherever they won't. You mean they're human?
You mean they live in a capitalist society and you need to make more money than any other way? Versus those ethical people that want to save the whales on Wall Street? No, that's not what I mean. I mean, the people in Hollywood are always jealous.
Hush, hush your pie hole there. People in Hollywood always got cash. And I used to argue with them that they never got a piece of the action, which is the actual ownership of the IP. So they always like went for the cheap cash.
I was like, they're well-paid employees. That's what I called them all. Like engineers. I always thought the sales people.
Yeah, because they get a piece of the action. Yeah, but also, I've always found in tech companies, the companies I've worked in, that basically your tech team and your sales team are pretty much coin-operated and will get a new job over lunch and not come in if someone offers them, you know, another 50 bucks a year. Whereas the other categories of employees are more focused on their equity and the culture and career advancement and salespeople and tech, kind of the engineers are pretty much coin-operated. Another fascinating insight from the CEO of nine companies, seven of which have failed.
Yes. Okay. I wanna talk about Jeff Dorsey had a tweet storm about decentralizing the platform, which is against everything they've been doing for the past bazillion years. Now I covered when they centralized and they got rid of all the third-party people making things on it or they just, or they sidelined them because everybody was making all this cool stuff and being very innovative around Twitter.
And then Twitter sort of shut all that down by controlling all the entire experience, which they had good reason to do at the time under, under Dick Costello. But he announced, Dorsey announced his Blue Sky team, a Let me ask you this, has the complexion and the format and the gestalt that tech has brought to civic and defense issues make you confident that we should head in the way where more of their content on these platforms becomes out of the reach of regulators or government officials? Is that the direction we want to head? In this case, and I thought Apple was on the right side, I don't love Facebook jumping in here, you're right.
It's right, it's depending on the company. I don't trust Mark, but I do trust Apple to do the right thing around privacy, comparatively. So I think that's the problem. And as others jump in as Google and the others, yes, you're right.
And by the way, lots of people are, Australia passed a law that mandates that companies break encryption if requested. And so, you know, they don't want to have a key. They don't want to have a key that could open up everybody's door. That's the skeleton key of all time.
But it's an interesting it's going to go. This is going to never was going to stop back with James Comey fighting. It was James Comey actually was fighting with Apple back then. And then President Obama was on James Comey's side on that one.
But it's an interesting time. This is a big deal. This is a very, this is a big, big deal. This encryption debate.
And as we get into quantum computing, it's going to get even bigger because there's going to speaking of the last episode of Silicon Valley, that's what it's all about with something that could break AI, that could break codes. But some of these new wrinkles that Google has gotten into around quantum computing, this quantum supremacy, they're calling it, is certainly going to be problematic for encryption and everything else. So it'll be an interesting time. But last one, and then we'll take a break, is the Away CEO was after we talked about this situation of you were like, who cares if she's tough?
And I agree with you. She has been replaced, essentially fired by by and they brought in the former Lululemon executives, Stuart Hazelden, I think his name is. It's all very complex because it doesn't, you know, there's lots of critiques about the work culture there. It looks like they were sort of getting this guy to come in as COO to sort of move this.
Of Corey, CEO, one of the founders out. And there's there's all kinds of like debate online about what happened there. Jason Del Rey wrote a story about how they they moved this fast forward to it. And some people are positing that they used it as an excuse to get rid of her, which is anyway, it's fascinating.
What you still are on the too bad, suck it up. I know she's the Tony Tony Montana of the CEO. Say hello to my little friend accountability. Did you read those slacks?
Yeah, yeah, I got to say, I don't disagree. She was a man. She definitely said that with a stupid hundred percent. Read the everything story.
Jeff Bezos behaved this way over and over and it was called leadership then. You know what the most I think the most interesting thing about this is mediums and that is the way people react, the way you establish relationships, the tone of something, you know, and I don't know if it was Kurzweil. I don't know who said it. And I'm sure Twitter will tell me a million times who said this thing very Chris fashion.
But the medium is the message. And there's Marshall McLuhan. Thank you. Thank you for that.
And so you should be on Silicon Valley. So I was there. Slack has become I don't use Slack. I have trouble with it.
I think it's like Snap. I have trouble figuring it out, but everyone in my company uses Snap. And the thing about email is it piles up in people's email boxes. And it feels to me that basically Slack is like text messaging or group emails that have more immediacy.
But the fact that it's always on impulse driven, it's very impulse driven and a lack of filters. And this came back to haunt the CEO. But I read through her emails and I mean, there's a couple of errors. There's a couple of things going on here.
Most of these young CEOs of tech companies don't have mentors. They don't have coaches. They also I mean, they grew up and they they're kind of their, their training was they read, you know, Ben Thompson's book or they read Peter Thiel's book. That's the kind of the sum of their, their CEO training.
And I think that, you know, there's some basic general rules as a CEO. And that is you'd want to kind of praise publicly and provide feedback or criticize individually in a thoughtful, measured way, because people, especially I think younger people need watering. And also the level of directness should be correlated to the seniority. I think it's okay to hold, to pull people in who are getting paid a lot of money in our senior and say, you know, basically what the fuck, right?
But junior people, I don't think, I think you call them into a room and not to sound too Hallmark channel and say, okay, we're having a challenge here and this can't continue and I need all of your help figuring this out. But it did feel a little bit, I don't know. It felt a little bit bullying and grandstanding, but I don't think this is anything that male CEOs have been doing or just CEOs in general, which is redundant with male. So I'll put it back to you.
If she had been, if she had, if she was a he, do you think she would have, she would have been asked to step down? No, no, no. Travis Kalanick was there for years and they grudgingly got rid of him when he crossed every single line possible. Uh, no, I don't.
I think, I think it's really interesting. There might be some other things going on there called, you know, her personality. She's an, I would imagine she's an inexperienced CEO, right? But so they're all inexperienced CEOs.
But women, women who are inexperienced CEOs in the startup game get killed. Like, look, whatever you think, Theranos fraud, everything else. There's lots of behaviors like Elizabeth Holmes is out there and they just don't, they don't, there's 9,000 movies about Elizabeth Holmes, right? Right.
Like why? Like you, and I believe me, I'm no fan of what she did. So it's, it's, but it's interesting that she gets like nine movies and 12 books and an excellent book, by the way, by John Curry. Uh, but it's still, it's really fascinating.
It's I agree. I think some of her stuff was very much like I would have written. I'm sure if you could find my emails on certain things. Yeah, I've done, I've done, I've done worse.
And then, yeah, but what this also indicates, I think, is, um, we've reached peak founder and that is, there's always a tension between capital and the investors and the founders. And because mostly it's Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates, these founders who have just returned extraordinary return to the shareholders. There's a, there's what I would call founder fetish and the founders are given way more license and way much more runway to fuck up than they should be given. They used to be not given enough.
Now they're given way too much. Yeah, well, we brought in an executive who's got a great reputation. This is a turn around. So I think what they got a great business, but under a lot of pressure because there's a lot of copycats, et cetera.
And so this is the moment they could really throw it all away. And I suppose they're not gonna, you know, they don't want to lose the, the goose that laid the golden egg here. How's Amazon done to away what they've done to all birds? They basically come out with a knockoff of 90% of the color, but 30% of the price.
Go search for away on Amazon. See what you get. It's a knockoff. It's a knockoff.
They're all knockoff everything. All right. When we get back, we will talk more. We are going to listen to a friend of pivot and we have wins and fails of the weekend.
Also, you're gonna have a prediction. See that. Make it one with Mr. Scott Galloway.
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Last week, Amazon elevated two more women to its S team. That makes the S team three women out of makes millions of decisions and then it will promote into that golden buy box or like in Google, whoever comes up first in the search, Amazon now the second largest search engine in the world, number one product searches, it's key that you have the algorithm put your product up first. But the thing about an algorithmically driven shopping experience is that a booty from six years ago that sold more pairs than any other shoe comes up first because it's a top seller. But the thing about fashion and luxury is the primary value proposition is someone with better taste than you is looking into the future and saying, this is the hot shoe, and you may not have known that, but you can trust me because I'm Joanna Coles, or I'm the chief merchant at Stuart Weitzman, and you can trust me on this.
And the algorithmically driven decision model at Amazon as opposed to the merchandising or creatively driven, no algorithm is going to tell you to buy a Gucci bag. I mean, have you seen Gucci bags? They are just out there. But the creative director there is a genius and sets the tone.
So it's almost like they're set up to say, okay, what would you do if you were, two questions. What would you do if you were Christine Boulson with a great name like that? And then who is their biggest competitor? Very quickly, then we'll get to wins and fails.
What would you do if you were her? Just keep copying or what? No, I don't think so. I think they have to take a page out of Alibaba has tried to be the kind of luxury team.
Alibaba tried to be the luxury friendly platform and they respect, they really go after counterfeits. They respect distribution. They respect pricing. They try not to discount it.
They provide more data and analytics back. Shopify is probably one of the few brands that you're going to hear more about Shopify in 2020. Agreed. Because they are transparent in terms of analytics and they realize that they have set up a partnership model.
So unless there's fundamental change, and she's not going to get to make those decisions, she's either got to overwhelm the industry with capital or wait till a recession and people are desperate to go on and then they get the lips around the crack pipe of revenues from Amazon and won't be able to put the pipe down. But she's in a very good. How did you get this to crack? Crack is whack.
I don't know. I just love drug metaphors. I'm more into drugs than anyone who does as few drugs as me as anyone in the world. Teenage boy.
All right, teenage boy. All right, I got it. That's very true. I think you're absolutely right.
I think that she's right about the emotion. This is an emotional thing and Amazon does everything by the numbers and they don't have creativity. Although some of their shows do. It's still, you know, it's very hard for them to be hyper creative.
They are good at fast following. They're very much like Walmart in that regard. You know, they were just essentially, the planes are covered with the bodies of pioneers and they'll come right on after. By either copying or making a fast follow.
That's what they're good at. What do you think they should do? I think fashion will be tough for them, except in the stuff that's easy to copy. I'm going to buy Allbirds or I'm not going to buy those shoes.
Like, right. You know, I just, I don't want Allbirds. So that's fine. But, you know, I just, my kids are going to want the Adidas and they're not going to want it.
Like, you just can't create something like that. You just can't. You have a relationship with fashion stuff in a way that you don't. Now, I don't dress at all, so I will take whatever stupid t-shirt.
Oh, so speaking of fashion, two things. One, what she could do, but unfortunately, Christina Vestier would get in the way of this. What Amazon could and should do or should do if they could do it would be to buy aspirational distribution into buys a Londo because a Londo has played nice with luxury brands and they would immediately overnight gain distribution. I initially thought that Amazon might buy Nordstrom such that they could gain distribution to high-end beauty and fashion brands, but that didn't happen.
That's like do the Whole Foods trick. Yeah, that's interesting. The problem is any kind of high profile, any high profile acquisition is going to get a ton of scrutiny. So they just make these little acquisitions of unknown companies in fulfillment.
But I have had a fashion, I don't call it a nightmare, but something that embarrassed my son. I took my son, I had to go pick up my son at school and I'm like, well, I'm just picking him up in front of the school, so I don't need to change. So I had on my pajama bottoms and I sleep in any shirt I just grab. And I grabbed a shirt I got at the Lesbians Who Tech conference.
And do you know what it says across the front? It says Lesbro. And I threw on my flip flops. I'm wearing flip flops, pajama bottoms, a t-shirt that says Lesbro.
And I'm on a conference call, so I have my big Bose headphones. And, of course, my son's not out front, so I got to go back to the field where he's playing soccer. I walk out onto the soccer field in kind of lily white conservative Gulfstream, Florida. The place just stops and I yell, Alec.
He looks at me and then he looks away like a dog that's done something wrong and just pretends like he doesn't see me. And so, anyways, my fashion is embarrassing. I like that entire outfit. I like the entire outfit.
I'm glad you showed off for them and didn't dress up. By the way, it's like two degrees here on the East Coast. You're lucky to be in Florida wearing flip flops and a Lesbians Who Tech t-shirt. All right, wins and fails, Scott Galloway.
And we'll see what happens with Amazon. They definitely have an uphill battle in that way. Wins and fails, wins and fails. I've been doing all the talking.
You go first. What are your wins and fails? You know, I have a lot of wins and fails. This week, I think there are democratic process going through, despite all the ridiculous lying by the Trump people and Bill Barr is once again becoming, doing something awful again this week by looking like he's got his nose so far up Trump's butt that he's coming out his mouth.
That's a fail. It continues to be the fail that these people who just will do anything to stay close to Trump. And then I think the biggest fail this week for me is Trump attacking Greta Thunberg and making a remark about her Asperger's, like that she should chill and she, you know, she should smile more. It just was like, literally, his wife is going, be better, or be nicer, or whatever the hell her stupid thing is, because it's like meaningless.
It's just appalling. He's just an appalling person to attack a kid. He did it before with her. He's obviously jealous that she's on the cover of Time.
So that was irritating to me, but it wasn't shocking that Bill Barr and Donald Trump attacked terribly. And the win was, actually, and I tweeted it, it was this video that Michelle Obama did where she gave, she went to a local school in Washington, D.C. And it was for some Ellen giveaway, but ended up, you know, giving stuff to the school. But it was so meaningful, this video.
And it just made you go, oh, those people who are good to people. Like, these kids got a new computer lab and a basketball court, and they got iPads and stuff like that. But this group of kids who just are in a terrible part of Washington, and this vice principal who's just amazing, just makes you, restores your faith in humanity. And I know it was, you know, it was a movie trying to touch on my emotions, but it was like, oh, my God, good people again.
Like, seeing Michelle Obama and how thrilled the kids were to see her and hear her name. These kids knew just who she was, were so happy. She's such a hero to them. And it was like such a contrast to me, those two things.
It's just this, like, they're just disgusting people. And there are, but there is great hope out in the world. These kids deserve the same. We could do that for every school district instead of some just handing money at rich people.
It's just really, it was really quite a contrast. Thank you. That's my wins and fails. Merry Christmas or happy holidays or whatever you're supposed to say.
Okay, so my win was the show Silicon Valley. I thought they captured in like a really, I think humor is so powerful. I think they captured kind of the eccentricities. And just for anyone who's out there playing drinking games, they captured the gestalt of Silicon Valley.
I thought they did a fantastic job. I learned from the show. You could tell that the consultants on the show really did their job. And when they built into the storyline things like encryption or quantum computing, it felt, and I don't have enough domain expertise to know if it was real or accurate, but it felt accurate.
And I think a lot of people learned kind of some of the nuance and some of the problems and upside of technology in a thoughtful, humorous way. A lot of us, they brought a lot of people like me and many others to Coslo was working on the show speaking of Twitter. He was in both. Back to you.
What a shocker. It's been three minutes. I'm just saying they did. You're so jealous this week.
I'm jealous. That doesn't mean I'm wrong. You should be jealous this week. That's fair.
to step down from Congress, in my feeling. I agree. I think you should have been there. I think she's the Al Franken of this generation or this class.
I think she absolutely should not have stepped down. I think the manner in which they went after her trying to slut-shame her or whatever it is, it would not have aged well. I think she absolutely, we needed her voice. And we needed that issue to be more present about just how ridiculous and how oppressive.
This isn't fucking Old Spain. I mean, that was ridiculous. Anyway, I agree with you. And she talked about a suicide, a potential suicide attempt that impacted this.
And it was really something. I was surprised and it was very, I was surprised to read it. But I also feel these things have this thing. They just degrade humanity and it's also hard to resist at the same time, I think, in many ways.
We took away my son's iPod. But he was typing in things like Harry Potter nude, which is pretty innocent. But the stuff that comes up is not innocent. What does that do to the nine-year-old boy's brain?
I wasn't exposed to anything like that. I talked about it almost continually. We talk about the discussion I talk about online porn. That's not how women are.
So far, so good. But yes, it's definitely something you have to battle. And especially how people consider women, how they look at women. Well, just for people out there, there's a seminal TED Talk by Cindy Gallop, who's been a really, I think, a thought leader around this issue called Make Love Not Porn.
And she did a TED Talk about 10 years ago that was really, I think, kind of... Yeah, Cindy's been at front of it. And actually, again, The Times had a good piece this week and part of a series about these kind of impacts about gaming and children and pedophiles. But they had a series of articles.
There's a reporter who's written all of them with other reporters. But this week was about video gaming and it's like a hunting ground for pedophiles. But previously, you can't take things back on YouTube or on things like that. It's really, it's quite, especially devastating to children.
And so it's worth a read also. But you're right, Cindy Gallop's a great TED Talk to go to. Big issue. Scott, you're surprising me.
That's a really good prediction. That's really good. It's weird. I bring out very maternal instincts in you.
You say, Josh, you're proud of me. You protect me. It's really sweet. I feel like, I literally feel like at any moment you're going to take away my iPad and then give me a ride to literally practice.
No, I hate little League. My son did it. It takes 900 hours to sit there and watch them make one hit. You know what's really wonderful, though?
My boys are really marginal athletes, so it's all going to be over pretty soon. It's not. The worst thing in the world is when your kids are good athletes because then you end up literally roaming the earth and sitting on the sideline. Oh my God, lacrosse season starts soon.
I'm so not looking forward to it. And then now I have another kid who probably will be really athletic. I'm hoping piano or ballet. Even more exciting.
I hate all that stuff. I go to it. I go to it and I clap. Speaking of games, I'm about to meet Megan Rapinoe.
What should I ask her? Besides her fantastic outfits. Well, my question would be one word. Next question mark.
What is she planning to do? You know, what do all athletes do when their athletic career is over? I hope she doesn't end up on ESPN. She strikes me as very substantive and interesting and has strong leadership skills.
What's next for her? All right, I will ask her that. Anyway, it's time for us to go. We'll be back on Tuesday for more tech and business.
How are you liking these twice a week things, Scott? I think they're good. Yeah, so far it's okay, though. It's a lot of work.
It's a lot of work. I know it's hard for you to yammer away for an hour. One plus one equals one and a half, I think. I think this economy is a scale.
We're going to, I think they're working out rather well. I hope our listeners do. Please let us know if you're around this week and you want to tell us what you think of the show. Let us know by tweeting to us at hashtag PivotPodcast with your thoughts on our second show and how you like it, if you like more is better or more is not better.
Or email us questions at Pivot at VoxMedia.com. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Eric Anderson is Pivot's executive producer. Thanks also to Rebecca Castro and Drew Burrows.
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Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.