Welcome back to the new thinkery. My name is David Barr with me as always is my good friend Alex Priya. How are you? All right, dude.
How are you doing? I'm doing all right. It's a bit of a dreary dreary Sunday and this week approaching Thanksgiving, but There's a covid vaccine on the horizon. Nice with some good news Greg.
You were telling me all about this You weren't you saying something about them putting record chips in it or something like Bill Gates has some plan? That's in your head I forget that's you had a whole theory. I forgot. That's not me Greg, how are you?
Yeah, I'm doing great David Alex could hear from you both We're now going virtual here at Ashland. So I'll be teaching his weapons for the remainder of 2020 And usually I mean that's unlike you Greg because usually Wear bespoke jackets made in Hong Kong Since that's true. That's true. Sam's Taylor.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and it's really I endorse the cheese barn For legal reasons. I don't talk about anymore.
You're ever in Hong Kong. They do make it a fantastic. Yeah, I think you want to dress up to teach I can't stand I went a friend of mine at a previous college. I taught at I saw I'm teaching once and Jim shorts and a teacher.
Wow Yeah, I had a teacher undergrad, you know, is it a taxi? Yeah, taxi driving You know where do you know has the two guns like Yeah, he had a t-shirt like that with the near just pointing guns. It was full Yeah, that reminds me speaking of Teachers that you should wear the class Alex had this while we were at St. John's in graduate school He had this shirt that read a you also like a slick on a stupid and I'm with stupid and with the arrow Pointing to whoever he was sitting next to is really funny.
It's usually you Sweater I wear a sweater. I don't like it. I don't like it and I take the sweater off I still have that that shirt. Yeah, it's great.
That's a great sure. That's in high school. Yeah Story kind of story. Yeah, you're gonna have to like I am with stupid sounds much more Haida Gariam.
So today I know I don't have anything good. There's nothing good with that. No nothing Today aren't you a native speaker? Yeah, no.
Yeah, he's half I was born in Latin America Okay, so you see what he takes a week or so he failed high school Spanish despite all that I never took high school Spanish I thought when we do the Machiavelli up so he said you were Italian Italian to the Italians move to Paraguay in 1800s Like a story. Yeah, anyway, so today we're talking about Plutarch's life of like Kyrgyz and so like Kyrgyz is the the famed founder and law giver of Sparta His laws if we believe Plutarch endured for over 500 years, you know The Spartans essentially defeated the Athenians in the Peloponnesian War is that fair to say Greg Alex? Yeah, they won Yeah, they're 27 year-long war they they want. Yeah Less intellectual is anybody a winner in a 27 year war or don't we all lose?
Maybe where the virus in the world is just hearing itself. I Don't know are we gonna just start saying this kinds of things It's gonna platitudes. I love talking like that I think I like dogs more than people. Yeah, yeah, exactly as you just say That's right the appa we'll be talking about the Part of this is a password wisdom, maybe right so Sparta.
I mean for listen our listeners will of course Have heard of Sparta and understand its importance why it's important to talk about but for those who don't I mean we are Americans are In the West I mean we are all descendants of Sparta in one way or another We talked about the Marshall virtues Things like this like we get all of that from Sparta so our inheritance is a dual inheritance I think from Athens and Sparta for different reasons We probably have a triple inheritance when you bring in Jerusalem so and then you know more recently we have movies like the 300 So I guess the popular imagination has been rekindled with with Sparta and these heroes and strong men They can actually why do you think Sparta has such an enduring appeal to people? I think I think it's because they're easier. They're seemingly it's a society that's seemingly easier to understand I think then Athens we got all these intellectuals running around. They're saying kind of different things.
You don't know with innovation Everything seems a little bit slippier with Sparta. It's like, you know exactly what's going on exactly what's going on and where their societies And what there's rather their societies geared toward right like their their objective and their mission and I think it's just more intelligible And they're in the toughness right I mean like every time it's something we all aspire to is that kind of toughness kind of manliness That's right. Yeah, it's we actually this little group of guys. I work out with we actually have a workout that we call the Spartan Yeah, yeah, there are a lot of those popular like those tough mutter that kind of stuff Yeah, they use the Spartan on this right That's right.
And so that the imagery of of Sparta is everywhere too It's kind of been eclipsed by Rome, but my contention is that we kind of meld the two and we just don't quite we don't quite know it But I just strange because the whole of martial societies the ones, you know, emphatically non-imperial Well, the other one is that's right. That's right. No, that's a great part of it comes in empire, too Yeah, it takes a while there right I didn't twist home bodies usually Mm. Well, I think that's the question that I think this is some dispute maybe but maybe so why this was so sorry going Just do small things one is yet.
I mean like, you know, how many college sports teams have the Spartans as their mascots I don't think there's a college for Stephen the US who has Athenians as their mascots. All the way will be interested in proven wrong Exactly I think it's I think there's an Athenian team would be the manboy wrestling league or something like that One thing to your point is we transition to the actual work This is a I was thinking about Rome in this context Rome versus Spartan Athens The like Kuragas which we're reading gets paired with a newma newma being the Roman vlogger But Romulus so I guess the question I was who is as far as Romulus So Rome has Romulus and Numa and then for the Greek pairings that that flute dark as we get these some like Curtis So we get an Athenian and a Spartan so that I don't know the answer this But I wonder if flute dark isn't implying that Rome sort of somehow comprehends the best of Sparta and the best of Athens and the way that you were Disillusioned that's good. That's good. That's good.
That's right. I was just gonna say Solon would be the pairing but he's paired with poplacola It's not like this is some oversight on flute arts part That's good to consider. I think that we probably should make some Defestful so back up a little bit Plutarch is a Roman writer. He writes this he writes a number of things Most famous work though is called the shorthand with his lives and these are his Greg already Hented alternating lives of famous Greek and Roman loggivers or statesmen and so This book was like a bedside companion to just name your favorite philosopher and they were acquainted with with plutarch's parallel lives So Rousseau the American founders Machiavelli Shakespeare in particular so they all lifted I mean Shakespeare's Cesar I think is lifted from like directly from plutarch and so this was this was the kind of their kind of education This book would have been taught in school and plutarch is somewhat out of it's not that he's out of favor But he's just not read as much anymore and we might discuss that at the end of the day But philosophically, there's a lot there and so I just want to read one quote and kind of in defense of why plutarch for this podcast on political philosophy And this comes at the end of his life of like her guess which incidentally begins right?
It's I think there are 50 lives and then so the way that Plutarch structures that is goes a Greek life Roman life in the comparison of the two so this life comes early on I think it's the third chapter in the parallel lives and at the end of this chapter unlike her guess Plutarch who sometimes breaks into his own narrative using his own voice, but it's it's very rare It's kind of like Thucydides telling you what he thinks It's just like you get these flashes He says and therefore all those who have written well on politics as Plato Diogenes and Zeno have taken like Kirkus as their model Then a two or three sentences later. He says while man in general treated the individual philosophic character is unattainable He by the example of a complete philosophic state Oh, I've raced himself above all other law givers of Greece I mean this is an incredible testament to the importance of like her guess so I thought we could use that as a starting off point That sounds great to me. Go ahead. Go ahead.
I'm sorry. Yeah, I think and just to connect it to I think what your larger point is is the Plutarch for political philosophy. There's a direct comparison right between like her guess his wisdom and say that of Plato, right? Somehow by seeing what he did we have another angle in on the same questions and what you read in treatises of political philosophy So I think there's yeah, I want to push back.
I mean I'll change my mind just a moment for the time being I'm sorry This is just this is just gossip I mean who care I mean isn't it unfilisophic to be so focused and so concerned with biographies of people like you know who cares What Alex peruse criminal record is I mean one could look that up simply by googling it on my player does But I mean you don't I mean why isn't this just I mean in a way I thought philosophy was supposed to sort of abstract in the individual and try to understand things isn't this isn't this sort of Emphasis on biography anti philosophic is always kind of wisdom Yeah, so maybe I can approach I think that's a good example right you expect a work of political philosophy to be filled with arguments Right and proofs hopefully right that they can actually prove what they want to say now Aristotle says in the metaphysics that metaphysics I think that Socrates came up with two sort of innovations in philosophy one was the The argument from example right he would introduce examples counter examples or illustrative images which are kind of examples the word for Example in Greek sort of get the word paradigm also means something like a kind of image, right? But he also gives refutations, so I think there's a way I work with a paradigm I don't think anybody's called it one of dimes since the 1940s. What's that about you two? Oh, thanks.
You're my paradigms Perfect time. Okay, anyways, so but I think an example a well constructed example an illustrative example And Greg is on mute right now cracking up convulsing. I mean, this is the kind of thing that kills in the cheese barn, right? All the all the well-buttered well-buttered lasses of Ashland though come on into you if you make a joke like Oh, you know, I suspect it's like a highlight of Greg's week He's come home to his wife He's like man you see me in line that she's lying just got him all got him all yuck in Greg when you when you tell a funny one Do they throw you extra cheddar?
Or is that it were the only way to get extra cheese barking like a doggy? Was that a joke on my name? Breyer Anyways, I think even near gossip right something that's of sort of it seems like nearly kind of tailating interest or something like that There's usually something there and I think in a biography if it's really an interesting Individual right or they can somehow illustrate larger larger points about the nature of human life or in this case the political things by virtue of that example But I do think at some level you do need to translate the life or the drama of this life into an argument right much as you would with a Botanic dialogue or something like that. Yeah, or Santa Fon Cyrus.
Sure. No, I think that's a point Let just know how are you against myself here But one of the things that confirms to me that David is right that this that this work should be taken somewhat more seriously in the blue dark Is doing something that mere biographical writings This would be a good time to add an insult at a biographer who's refused to come on the new thinkery. Oh, yes, Doris Kern's Goodwin Yeah, so no Stephanie. Oh, right right near me or right scribbler So any event right there at the beginning in the first chapter of his life of like her guess He talks about what other historians have had to say about like plutarks talks about what other historians have had to say about About like her guess and then he says among these and then presumably the incident is historians is Aristotle the philosopher And so I do wonder if who tark doesn't see himself as engaging in something like philosophy But for some reason I'm asking it as mere historical work I don't know it's an interesting question, especially in light of the fact that plutark does have something approaching philosophy I mean he did write other works in those works like his Maralia and that works still exists So he could have he could have distilled What was most noble to transmit to fellow man from each life into the kind of book on the Maralia, but you're right He writes these extended biographies and they're filled with it's really funny So they're about let's say like 16 pages long 25 pages long, but they're filled with seemingly extraneous information I don't think it like her guess they'll say well there are a lot of stories told about his birth most of them aren't true But instead of just telling you the the truest account or the account he believes the most true He he gives you the false ones and any of he'll slip in the one he'll say well this one seems most correct So you think to yourself like what a terrible economy of style plutark plutark hat It's just and it can be exhausting sometimes when you're reading I didn't know if you guys had any thoughts about that I mean, Horavus does that as well.
Yeah, I also give you a false ones and usually there's a good reason for that He shows that the false one misses something, you know essential I don't know if plutark's doing something like that but on the comparison or of on this notion that plutark might be up to something sort of interesting in this thing about This book is about 4050 pages something like that right in the little edition that we're using right in that 50 pages He gives you a kind of condensed version of what looks like the inspiration for Plato's Republic Let's say so and now you might not be somebody who hears the word Plato name Plato Here's the name Socrates Caesar 300 page time long that spans all these others That doesn't interest you but maybe you really are interested in that kind of Spartan regime Well, this book attracts a different kind of reader right shows them, you know, okay This is this guy that you're fascinated with let's see what he did right, you know Greg you too David You've both I think spoken to the fact that there's a kind of enduring appeal to Sparta Well, the republic doesn't appeal to that I think so much as this work does where it really says you want to know what Sparta was like you want to see how How this was done how this ever got off the ground here it is here's what it looked like and I think it has some important lessons for that kind of reader I just want to amplify that last point I think partly enduring appeal as far as it appears to be so different than any other kind of regime any other kind of place that's ever existed For me, that's for sure. Yeah, it seems to be so unique and it's unique This seems to be by almost exclusively the product of the thought of this man like Kurges who set down laws for them made them so different Yeah, yeah, the only place where you see this if you were to see this I thought about I Was thinking about this earlier today rereading this chapter if you were to see Sparta condensed into like a 50 acre plot of land and then observed human beings Operating in so regimented a fashion you'd be convinced that they were under the power of a cult leader Because the only places that kind of run only this kind of efficiency where women are in common I mean just very bizarre for a leader as a cult leader move number one, right? Yeah, yeah Well, yeah, well the equipment it's usually all the women accrued of the cult leader, but he gets bored and moves on to the men Yeah, it's just there's none of that and I guess there's some of this but but everybody plays a very I mean ultra defined role in the cult There is usually a council of but a very limited council of wise men But ultimately the buck starts and stops with the cult leader who's given over to insane pronouncements which everybody just treats as like Aracular and so so that's what this might appear and so it's amazing that it endured for five centuries And I think that's why so Greg that was a good that's an excellent point I think that's why we're talking about it maybe we can talk about what it looked like on the ground or we should probably do that I Think so I think Greg why don't you jump in and talk about a let Curtis's departure, right? Yeah, kind of where did he how did he learn?
It's not like the man was just yeah born out of the head of bar and then he just knew all these things So the the treatest begins I don't treat a spot. He would he call it begins by saying that we don't know much about the Curie says birth or his ancestors their students about his ancestors were and it briefly mentions that like Curtis was in charge for a Little while while his nephew correct me if I'm wrong I was nephew was being was too young to become king or something and so he really took care I think he might even be in charge before he was born to Oh, that's exactly it. Oh, I'm sure that's right. Yeah, because because his sister-in-law That's right his sister-in-law says listen like her guess.
I let's just kill the child in my womb Right you will rule and he goes no no no I have a better solution. Yeah, sorry Greg on I forgot about that in womb killing Hopefully he actually uses it as his first and he's like no I'm not gonna do it and instead the child is born He says if it's a female air who cares with the male air bring him to me that child was brought to like her guess and he makes this big To do so this is his first I think teachable moment where he learns like oh, you know the power of seeming magnanimity Yeah teachable moment. I like it was his first Oprah moment Teachable moment, but then so alright so then he puts his nephew on the crown He's protected them and he goes away and he travels for a while and he ostensibly well He does I guess a couple of things I know David you're gonna want to jump in and tell us about Thales But he travels to Crete Asia and Egypt in Asia he goes to Ionia Which is through the Greek part of western Asia and he's he examines different kinds of regimes How different governments are run and he brings the information he learns back to Sparta to form a new government when he returns Because upon his return he completely revolutionizes the Spartan regime or the Spartan government I mentioned he went to Crete Asia And Egypt and then Plutarch mentions he's doubtful of stories that said that he also went to Libya Spain and India So there's either three or six places that he's visited either way I think the main points to show that like her gets visited sort of the three corners of the world or something like this As it was then known and then brought brought back the best David you want to feel it on the thing? Yeah, I think the the bit of his travels that will jump out jump out at readers I think from a philosophic standpoint from a standpoint political philosophy is what he learned from Thales Who was Thales again Greg?
Why is he important or Alex? What else? Yeah, what was he going to fell in the hole? Yeah, the first He's the first He's the first philosopher that we know of he's one of the seven stages of Greece That's right.
Yeah, the only one and most of them are kind of founder statesmen types But he's the only one who bridges that with a kind of natural science You read some stories about him in Herodotus where he accomplishes some interesting engineering feats that allow him to crease his to What a particular battle basically moving rivers and things like that There is a story about him falling in the well from Plato, but it's strange actually people don't I have an article on Thales in an axamander actually That covers all this detail, but the thing that's interesting about Thales is that in his aside from that platonic description He's generally held to be pretty cunning in Aristotle. You can make a lot of money off a yeah the oil presses Right at the end of the morning. Yeah, and so there's a there's a there's a I think a greater appraisal greater appreciation for him in Other authors, but yeah, my My chances is that he he was a kind of social and natural engineer of a kind right? He understood the machinations of nature and of men and he understood how to move them that was sort of his knowledge And here I think playing into this he comes off as a kind of musician writer a singer, which is one way to move people That's right.
Yeah, he he so put plutarch This is where plutarch jumps in and he says that it may truly be said that Thales prepared the way for the discipline introduced by like Kuragas so like Kuragas is discipline is His law giving but it's law giving in a peculiar way. None of the laws Amazingly to underscore none of the laws like Kuragas Promogates are ever written down and so what Thales Plutarch says that Thales taught him was the power of of song and culture or you know, which we can just shorthand for education The power that was a necessity of kind of inscribing a regime's culture in the heart of the citizen rather than into stone and how much more effective it is To convince men in that manner and like Kuragas did it through poetry and I just want to amplify what he said They're a little bit plutarch tells us that he was that Thales that is was wise and a politician or a statesman But that he passed him off as a past himself off as a poet So there's a kind of duplicitous back to my original point about what Plutarch's up to as well These wise men seem to pass themselves off as something other than what they really are He's these pretend He's yeah, yeah, there's different ways of of moving people or addressing people philosophers can do it as Aristotle or Thales does but they can also pretend to be Singers they can pretend to be historians like Plutarch. Yeah, I think that's a great point So he comes back. I guess that's the big point though So he comes back from his travels.
I guess you're in better than ever bigger and better boogalotes like Curtis to electric bugaloo and he Comes back now with more oil You dude, I forget Wanted him to come back Sparta wanted him to come back. That's important. Yeah, so really quick I have a question for the two of you guys. I was under the impression We're talking about like her just as the founder and the law giver But I was under the impression upon his return that there's still his nephew is still king and in fact Later on when there is an uprising of the gels of the leading men and Sparta obviously jealous of what Curtis when he returns He beats them back, but then still allows a dual kingship to continue So his role I this is a very important point to me to try and understand this like Curtis is the supreme Is he like the Ayatollahs?
I mean he rules the society, but he's not the president, right? He's not even one of the two kings You know, there's a Senate There kings so there's this whole structure and like Curtis has put the structure in motion like some god But he seems to exist outside of it as well is that is that too much? I think that's that's fair I mean, we don't want to talk about that I told too much as I'm Greg will take out his book of doodles But I think there's a there's a there's a interesting comparison to be had there I think like her is obviously he comes in and he benefits from the fact that his nephew is kind of weak-willed, right? And he's been a king since a baby basically doesn't seem like he's ever been tried or tested in any way and He comes in they want him there.
So it doesn't seem like he's been a very good ruler or a remarkable one in any way So and I think it lends his reforms an air of legitimacy right because the king remains But everything has changed right the way that the king rules and the sort of life that can can lead is vastly different than it used to be I think listeners at home should know before we move on that only one of the members of the New Thinkery is a direct Accent of the Ayatollah Khomeini and it's not a prayer. It's not bar as I do respect and I don't don't draw those pictures So when he comes at French school teacher gone when he comes back when when I like raised come back to Sparta He is a number of bold measures bold measures the institutes there three if I'm right that get expanded upon there seem to be Like subdivisions but the first one is the institutes of Senate Which sort of institutes an oligarchic elements into the city which mixes it? I think the verb used there is actually to mix he'll he mixed the regime this is a later of course in political theory The idea of a mister gym is sort of being is very important for being a good regime So he mixes the regime and he does it by bringing in the Senate which it brings in an oligarchic or aristocratic element The second bold measure that he does is he redistributes the land Which includes movable property and the third bold political measure that he puts in place is a practice of common messes So they the young not just young from a young age to old age the men eat in common And those three those are the three principal measures that that's like we're just put in place and put them all in place On the basis of what are called retro which just means well actually like a thing that is said or something like this I think so a pronouncement maybe and the first pronouncement is there will not be written laws There will only be pronouncements and so he just like there's no virtual fight club. I'm talking about so you don't write down the law So he institutes these three bold measures and he also institutes this practice of no written laws no written constitution It's all spoken I think what we see there is that he's trying to make the city as much one as possible at the end of chapter 8 Plutard relates to us that like her gets looked out at Sparta and thought that the whole thing was just a big batch of brothers And so therefore he's he's been successful.
It's just nothing but siblings. It's a one big family Oh, it's really quite nice the way he puts it. I'm trying to find it Where exactly it comes on page 229 if Alex and they're using the low of addition. Yeah, so this I think this is I think it's important to look at He goes And he said that I'm returning from a journey some time afterwards as he traversed the land just after the harvest This is the division of land and saw the heaps of greens standing parallel and equal to one another He smiled and said to them that were by all the Konya looks like a family estate newly divided among many brothers like pure equality, right?
It's one big family as far as one big family and what and weighs more than one Because it is it is a family that's right so it and there were outrageous kinds of practices Yeah, we can talk about my critiques later on if you want to whatever it's I guess I'll just say preliminarily give us a way that We give us some ways out that you're worried about no wasn't it was the women They're critiques what the incessant smarter Well, I mean that's not among his critiques maybe great. So here that why would you say it generally I would just say in general If you're modeling your political regime on the family I just I just would say for an early that I think that that misunderstands the distinctly political nature of man or is worth In other words, you know, if it's if the ruler is called father or uncle or something like this That's a sign that perhaps there's too much difference given to the version Well, Greg when you when you got me. Yeah, Greg when you found a regime the last 500 years. Well, you know, listen to you Okay, that's all I want.
What is this uncle? Who whoever aspires one day I shall be uncle but he was tyrants longs to be uncle Greg Well, didn't we refer to Joseph Stalin as uncle's uncle Joe during our time during the war to as a zalai? Is that how you express your admiration? I think that was I think that was a way of stuff is tyrannical role And yeah, I think that was a way that they referred in as uncle big Russians.
No, we did we're Americans Alex I don't know where you're from we Americans You know the 2016 election in some way else we need to know about 2020 I was in Venezuela with Hugo Chavez making back in 2012 Let me build off of what Greg said in it. So I think what Greg has laid out is readers of players are probably will find a lot of it really familiar To go back to his travels, right? When he was going around he basically examines two kinds of regimes one a very kind of severe very austere societies others are luxurious those kind of Passions or those kind of inclinations are reflected in Plato's Republic into two brothers I demand to sing glaucon and they have to kind of Socrates tasks to balance those against each other You can say something similar is going on in Sparta It may not be luxurious in a sense, but there is a kind of a class of people who has the leisure time to develop this military version That's a kind of luxury the concern with poverty and wealth with a private property in particular The the trying to make the whole city one family common messes things like that these are all parts that you see in In Plato's Republic. So I think Plutarch is in part drawing on that and also trying to show how how you know Plato himself was drawn on that as well.
And that of course reason the question is he trying to do with this Short life something similar to what Plato's trying to do with the Republic right show you political idealism and show you how ugly it can be And I think Greg's already alluded to the fact that he has some criticisms But I think those criticisms are very much I may be great to squeeze with me on this but very much intended on plutarch part They raised these these criticisms. I think well hold on hold on a second I I want to say for the any implicit criticism that in here is in this chapter Plutarch seems awfully praiseworthy of like her guess Do you guys not agree with that? Is there a passage you want to? Yeah, I'm trying to find an apology.
He says that people he says something like This was the best logarithm of all Oh, either too I for my part see no sign of injustice or one of equity in the laws of like her guess right though Some who admit them to be well contrived to make good soldiers print a bubble walk I mean that that's that's a striking line that he he admits of no he sees no sign of injustice or want to equity in the laws Right, but that might be the problem, right? I'll go say you can make a society that aims at perfect justice, but that doesn't mean that it's not ugly in certain ways So perfect equity doesn't mean that it's not Do I understand read continue by five the same passage that you do There's no trace of injustice or arrogance among any of the laws give the like her guess and then he brings up probably the most vicious thing Yeah, the very next line is oh they had this practice where the young boys Martin's got to go randomly kill us later Yeah, but Greg if you read even past that he says I don't think that this practice took place during the time of like her guess that this is all later so all of a corrupted they're regime corrupted into that But like her guess would never he doesn't believe he thought he thinks that like her he says I cannot persuade myself to subscribe to like her Just so wicked and barbarous of course judging of him from the greatness of his disposition and justice upon all other occasions I mean like her guess is a law giver who when there was an upbringing early on in his rule His eye was poked out by this like young hothead and what does he do and then when the town realized that they had they'd overdone it They bring the young man before like her guess is like, you know, let's work We'll kill him like we're gonna kill this kid because no no no and he makes that guy his his I guess essentially his servants So and then and then plutarch says by dint of observation This boy became more attached to like her guess because of his gentle manners and his justness and everyday things than than ever thought possible So his soul seems to be Described as gentle and just throughout but the but what results isn't that way? That's that's an issue for me? I don't know how to think about it Well, I would just say a couple things one is that who talked relationships that some say he had his eye damaged others say it wasn't And even I just wonder how many of these things could be reread in a sort of nasty light or a nasty vein But fine, okay, so the krypte the practice the practice I lose a moment goes called the krypte So there was this practice So the Spartans had this huge slave population called the helitz and in order to keep them sort of under their thumb They allowed the boys to once a year on holiday, you know, get your get your slaves to have and spear and we're gonna go out Critating and so they would kill a slave and that just seems awfully strange.
Okay, so fine So that was not like rigus's device was later on he talks about the F-Force which are this really Really powerful group of people that the word in Greek literally means overseers who seem to be over the kings and over the senators and Setters there again, that's another institution that blue dark says. Oh, well, this one What this came about hundred years after blue dark died? So it's awfully convenient that all these nasty institutions arose after like Korea's died if I were to criticize like her guess I might say well How good could he actually do if if only you know just after he's done there these huge changes made by the way the whole point of that I thought the pronouncements was that they wouldn't be these enormous changes And so they're due to see to be these changes I'm worked this out. There's only a second time.
I've read this for his work, but I am suspicious that Blue Tark is actually not the fan of Sparta that he initially peers to be and the most telling case I think we were gonna say this a little bit but the most telling case for me is when he says they're the most philosophic people ever Something like this that just seems just absurd pedently on its face Yeah, I mean the evidence of them being Philosophic are these kind of pity retorts, right? I mean, they're not even well he bans. Yeah, that's a good point so One of the one of the one of his Customs like her gets helps bring about is the banishment of all wealth and luxury but also and with that the banishment of Like the idol and mechanical arts. So really like all art or production is supposed to aim is aimed at Reinforcing the virtues of the state which reminds you a lot of Soviet Russia, but but doesn't that requires a large lay population?
I mean in other words these practices that he's putting place that you're saying he's not responsible for if I'm gonna If I'm gonna ban these kinds of activities somebody has to do it and so it demands a slave population. Oh, I don't disagree with that Yeah, yeah, no, no, that is and Jeff course I totally that's what we're the most and that's what I mean one of the you know Politically most tumultuous times for Spartan, you know is the helitz rebelling right this way class the helitz He doesn't and this is a permanent fixture of Spartan society I don't think he mentions them till the end right which is I think it's signed that he doesn't want to he wants to hit you with the Bad stuff on the back end right be taken with it. Yeah Yeah, take him with this. I mean correct.
Jeez sorry Greg's Greg's Greg's a full of cheddar You know, you know, you know, you get yeah Alex you know, he gets me gets the cheddar in him once he gets that cheese log He should be driving. Yeah, so but I think you know, you start reading it and you you hear about all these, you know Interesting sort of plans that he puts into place a lot of it seems to be governed by chance the whole episode with his nephew for example Is really important the reason he got driven on the first place the character of his nephew I think is largely conditioned by the circumstances in which he found himself He comes back introduced all these orders getting wounded but not killed I think was important for people being won over along the way So there's a lot of chance and that kind of makes you think like okay This might be the best possible, but it's highly improbable given that it's happened once right this guy, right? But then you start working through he say even if improbable but still possible it might be undesirable because what I want is the Excellence of human beings it's kind of military excellence But to do that I have to take six times the population and reduce them to other servitude and even create the risk where you know The the cryptae example that great brought up that this practice, you know, this sort of completely Sort of inhumane treatment of this class might emerge so and not just that out so they kill them they kill themselves So what happens is a baby is born and if the baby like there's this is there's no scientific Thing like I don't know how to describe this if the baby looks weak it's thrown into a pit like that's one of the practices and It's a total barbarism and it also doesn't make sense Because he's observing ones like the limbs I don't know yeah, and there's one practice right was they would they would wash it with wine to see how if it would go into a seizure Yeah, I'd just see if it has a strong constitution Right, right, you know not a bad way to enter the world unless you start convulsing then you're all done So and it's also a continuous Process of threshing out the wheat from the chaff and so the way that like kurgis to give it the best possible defense is that he is so when boys You're born and you're when you're a young boy So you spend like a few years with your family, but that's really just your mom Because your dad doesn't live at home. He lives in the barracks with the rest of the men So you're a young boy and like four or five you're sent off to a military school where you're gonna remain your whole life You get married you have to lie with your wife at night You have to sneak out to be with her and you have to return back to the barracks You're just constantly with these other men like training to what end and so What like rickas might say is well, we just want and then they're overseers who are older than you are trying to spot Which ones among your class were most excellent or the most wise?
And then what happens to the rest of the people and so I don't understand I guess the biggest problem for me is how a system like this was able to stay running for such a long time like if we if we Believe that because there are no roots like the family There are no roots to the family and the family seems like one of the building blocks of culture and society that are necessary to maintain in tax Well, the family is also a institution that splits human beings allegiances, right? So it might be that by pushing against the family that has a kind of preservation one thing also To push a little bit against it so we do know that it lasted a long time just to be clear It's not just plutarch in Plato, right? You find in the meenos for example or mark that it's been around 400 years this far version by that time So plutarch says 500 years and we have another I feel like it's like seven or eight hundred years another. Yeah.
Yeah. I imagine it's much longer Yeah, who knows? I mean, but the I think the overall I do think we want to take it seriously that this was a very largely stable Regine there were innovations right but you know the course of ours so once the F-4 is right to is this grataya? There's also a they eventually shifted from one to two kings right a virtue of a succession Question of who should succeed one of the king so I think there's a remarkable stability in it But this reminds me Alex also I think Greg you know better than anybody on this podcast I think the best way to get a literary appreciation being very loose with that We're but a literary appreciation of what life in Sparta or of How a Spartan regime could produce excellence in the soul of somebody's I think the best possible defense reads an ifons life of Cyrus He's there two educations in that life and this again Greg knows better than anybody It's like the education Cyrus received in Persia Which appears to be a kind of stand-in for Athens and then the life he What did I say?
Oh, Persia is the Spartan life. Yeah, and the needs are the Athenians. I switch that around that's right But you'll see the education Cyrus receives in Persia aka Sparta and what that kind of teaches him so that would make plutarks I think straightforward history come alive in a kind of literary way philosophically to Yeah, it's a fantastic look. I'm sure it's some why we'll we'll have to do an episode on the education sires or eight or 20 Yes, Alex we we've got a way so one point.
Yeah, I just circle back to that philosophic one again Just I mean we can transition whatever we need to in a moment I want to read this sentence and then this is the for me This is one of the signs that blue tark might not be entirely serious in his praise of like Bergus or Sparta So as Alex mentioned a moment ago the Spartans were famous for their laconics speech for their short witty aphorisms or Apophagem's or something like this. You know the end and the comic for the listeners, right? That's right. That's right.
Yeah, that's right So the English word laconic is derived from one of the records for Spartans Laconian But at the end of chapter 20 after talking about these pathogens like we're gonna try to change the translation on the fly Just to capture what's going on here. He says the form of their Apophagems or sayings was Was there their their pothagems were such a shape so that it would not be strange to say that they were lovers of wisdom or philosophers rather than lovers of gymnastics And so I mean just I mean name a Spartan philosopher It seems so weird and strange to say that the Spartans were philosophers Plato does a or Socrates does a similar thing in Plato's Patagoras, I think very obviously a joke We're in discussion with photographers. He says he says exactly this actually the evidence of the Spartan wisdom is that they don't speak very much So I think but there it's clear. He's joking.
Yeah, I think to justify this a little bit further in that same chapter So he says 20 begins of their version along speeches the following Apophagems approved And a couple of dumb comebacks later. He says instances of the pungent sayings not devoid of grace of which I spoke So they're supposed to be philosophic, but philosophy here means something like bitter retorts And that's not to me. That's not seem to mean evidence of the love of wisdom, right? I mean this is about as wise as I mean, I'll just read one of them That's just to show you how wise they are sis it Carrie Laus the nephew of like her guess when asked why his uncle had made so few laws answered met a few words need few laws It was interesting to I suspect I wonder please talk about this, but I suspect philosophy there has to be a philosophic class somewhere in the background In Sparta.
Yeah, where yeah, no, it's not really but but but uh Let's you how to get killed to the wisest Yeah, but it just seems that I I don't understand how this continues on its own inertia without you have wise men at the top You know I'm saying like the the wise boys lead the other boys and then the wise young men lead the other wise young men And so like there's this kind of process where I thought that at the end of the day You do have a certain older men that are Reputedly wiser than the rest of them and I just wonder if there's a kind of like nocturnal council that I mean if there is They don't read they don't read they don't read their music or poetry. I mean it's just they seem Most of their education even what he says their philosopher is not lovers of gymnastics It seems as though if anything they are allergic to nastles their lovers of exercise so much of their education seems to be around bodily sorts of things Yeah, I think I mean these are these are like marines right exactly Yeah, and I think that's that's the poetry of this place of anything It's it's the sort of love of being a Spartan right he caused them bumblebees right doesn't he say they're like bees at one point? Yeah, I think that's to be a philosopher I think look what do I know but I suspect that what you need is is private time and you need you need a space to be able to First off you probably need leisure and you need some degree Well, there's somebody needs to be wealthy and you have to be able to get alone outside of the view of folks and it seems like your entire Life is spent out around others and it seems like there's just there's never any opportunity even to talk to have the conversations I also if you if you're annoying anybody by being too chatty right you get kicked out of the mess because they They have a lot of resistance right everybody gets a piece of bread they put in their hand And then they toss it into a d bucket and if right right if you decide to squeeze it really tight And it goes in there for one person doesn't like it that shows you don't like the guy you don't want to be there One person doesn't like you you got to go which is Yeah, I thought that he says the older people like when you when you were retired age what you do is you like go off into the Market Square and you know like when I'm old I'm gonna go to the market square and diss people But what they do is they go to the market square and then just encourage people to beat some nobility that that's kind of philosophizing isn't it? Like they're they're supposed to go out in public and improve people's souls.
I Guess that's a philosophy is there mention of a marketplace. I mean early before like her guess has made his changes There are but I thought that they weren't even supposed to be involved in marketplace kind of them I mean one thing I'll just say is that Just go back to this point is that this is an incredibly poetic regime This is an incredibly poetic regime, right? They are themselves the creatures. They are themselves the characters That's why you're so taken with it.
That's why it's so impressive But for these people the real goal and this is I think what sustains it is being a smart the immense pride Right the immense sense of nobility right and the sort of unquestioning sense that we are excellent They are big enough to defend themselves strong enough They're feared and they're self-sustaining and they are marvel in their own ability both to be a Spartan and to make new Spartans Right so if the paradigm of a of a philosopher is kind of like a chatty bachelor both are not allowed Yeah, that's true. I was just trying to make sense of the line what blue tark says So that it was truly observed by one that inspired a he who was free was most so and that he that was a slave there The greatest slave in the world. It seems like everybody's a slave under the system that the hell is are treated viciously But your average Spartan is is as a slabish soul nonetheless So I don't know what that the first part of plutarch sentence he who was most free was free is in all the world I don't I don't understand that Yeah I mean it's a difficult phrase around your head around I mean they are free in the sense that they are free from the constraints of necessity to attain a kind of full moral virtue of a kind right to be courageous and moderate They're not free in the sense that they're free of of sort of oppressive or very strict I just want to read this sense of my translation The same I just want to point out if I'm right that there's a sort of Nastier sort of satirical reading of this in Sparta the free man is more free man than anywhere else in the world And the slave is more slave than any reasonable well if there are free men in Sparta They're freer than anywhere else in the world. Maybe there are no free men in Sparta.
Maybe everyone is and I think you lose this right there At the beginning what you said maybe they're all slaves. They're all slaves to the laws or something like this Yeah, yeah, I can even be understood as a kind of challenge right is this the freedom you want when you want to be free? Is this the excellence that you want when you want to be excellent? And I'm sure Dr.
Us Hoffman will tell us that they were free and so far as One understanding for the Greeks of freedom was not to be ruled by others and so the Spartans were notoriously Or famously free in that regard like no foreign power dominated over them But if that's all we mean by freedom, I don't think that's what philosophers mean by freedom Should we go on to the meal back now? What do you want? I would might talk about the family just for you and then after how Plutar how like her gets leaves the scene. Oh, yeah, that's important to me I'll just briefly talk about the family and you can talk about him fleeing the scene One of the things that listeners at home often I was that if you want to have this so I imagine they're probably I always have students who love Sport like there's nothing that can shake them up that try But what seems to be most impressive is this military this militaristic this all for one this band of brothers this tough guy marine You know 300 movie the battle against the Persian I would get it move on But what makes that possible seems to be this commune is making the family common and so making people so it's not just that they They're saying words when they're saying that they're their fellow citizens of their brothers It's trying to make the family as much as possible to model the political community Because what it's what it's trying so for example We didn't even talk about this I can't really talk about this so in Sparta if you're married as one gets married But one finds you know let's say that Alice is a nice Spartan man And he's walking down the alley of Sward and he notices Dave bars wife seems like a lovely woman for bearing babies No, no, no great great You're the better example because it's usually an older man that gives up the younger wife because you can't produce I'm not gonna use myself as the exam.
That's fine. I have a pick of multiple wives Just one just one of the time so he's walking down the alley and he sees he sees my wife And he could say you hey Dave your wife seems like she can give birth to some awesome little dudes And you being a good Spartan would say she is actually bomb diggity a given babies And so you would say here the keys take her first man and that's how it go and if David's wife said oh my gosh That Alex is a hunk of a man way more manly than my husband and could probably sire amazing stallion children It's makes no sense. There's no sense if David were born and started with a throne I'm gonna pit immediately Anybody can ask anybody to have a baby with them regardless of this there's no sanctity of marriage if you're interested in these things Listeners home and so husband's good father Men could father children with any woman that they please and there seem to have been some pride of place and sort of agreeing to Do this which is kind of their rape rape was probably rampant. We never hear the woman's perspective in this whole life Well, it's kind of interesting I mean the woman had the same power and aerosol and others would famously allege that Sparta was actually a Geinocracy in other words that some of the critics of Sparta would say that there was the women actually called all the shots Oh really because well and you think about it in this way if who's the only people in such a regime who are certain of the Attorney of the children and so this gives an enormous amount of power to women I think in the household more way more so men the men are always on campaign put our remarks so women end up really running the household Right, so when it comes to the domestic politics and there's I mean This is and it's interesting you mentioned this that marriage is not sacred and I was like, okay So what's overriding that that human logging that can be turned into the sacred and I think the sacred is producing good Spartans, right?
Just and I think shows you and so the ratios are interesting I think the fact that everything comes down to these ratios which are kind of divine edicts right or declarations Goes to show you that ultimately the heart of this is a kind of piety right or kind of faith in this sort of regime Yeah, yeah, yeah in one point. Sorry. I we and because there were largely no gods Well, it was like Delphi services a kind of source of divine Sanction so one of my favorite point of this the customs we didn't talk a lot about specific I don't want to go from this for me. Let me just say this one point.
All right, so one of the ratios Which one of these divine edicts meaning you can't go against it because it's to go against the god This isn't defying like Kirkus right like introducing the F forces, right? This is really really a divine sanction Is you have to cut your roof or the saw and make your door with an axe or maybe it's vice versa I don't know the idea being that This makes sure that all houses will be small therefore very simple without big or innate objects, right? It keeps everything very very small now. That's really a wise law because it keeps people from displays of luxury and inclining towards personal luxury It helps me maintain these military orders.
I think in a very subtle way, okay But there's no way anybody would do this unless the cotton man that it's so over the top, right? Yeah, so little things like that show you that it's a lot of these austere measures are a matter of piety Sorry great. You're on just two small points on the family before we want when we do if we ever do Zenefan on the Spartans This might be more clear there, but so as I mentioned So women and men can father and mother children sort of in this very sort of root basket turnover mixed kind of way where everyone's sort of having children with everyone and then one of the chapters plutes our talks at length about the practice of Spartans taking younger lovers younger male lovers Long time listeners will have heard us talk about pederasty and the symposium episodes So you just leave it well enough alone and so you just see this I won't draw out the conclusions for listeners at home But it seems as though both of these practice it broke both of these practices are common you might get some really strange Relations obviously with that. Oh, yeah, that's a good point But you want to talk about like her gets taking leave that might be a good point of departure.
Yes, we're almost at time I think so you're wondering. Well, how does this so we know it sustains for hundreds of years? But what happens with like her guess is he just like go up in a cloud and I Glutarch tells a few different versions of his end of life story, but essentially he beholds his creation seeing that it was good Decides I'm go. He says to the Spartans.
I'm going away now. He doesn't tell him why I can't recall why he said he's some subterfuge He says while I'm gone You have to promise or you will promise not to change any of the laws until I return and they say okay, and then he goes off and in he And he dies he commits suicide, but his way of committing suicide in a typical Spartan fashion if we believe this story is he he just slowly Stop taking in nourishment. So he dies of starvation and the justification was like even as he approached death. He wanted to Be as good to the city by not taking from it as possible.
So that's how he needs his end And of course he never returns to Sparta not even his bones or his ashes and they were very careful about that So the laws remain unchanged. So that's how plute talk tells it Wow, it's interesting theme right that For good laws to take effect the law giver has to disappear I think we still talks about this Plato talks about it in the statesmen as well, right? Wise laws or wise because they come from a wise source whether it be a god or a great founder But so long as that source remains present ever present Right there always be inclination to take up any discrepancies with the law where the laws don't necessarily seem all the way Justin Check it so he senses that he needs to disappear. He needs to be gone Yeah, should we move on to the mailbag or anything else guys?
We have a mailbag. I didn't see any we do have a mailbag Twitter yeah, it's where else where else okay Christian Warner at Warner Russell's Ass when one thinks of Sparta one thinks of manliness can the life of like her is to just something about manliness in particular David I don't think so. No, I don't think so because it's uh, I'm seeing these questions now. Don't be a hella lesson I I think it can give you a kind of distorted view of manliness uh in my opinion so um I think when you think when I think of manliness, it's like service to the community But also service to the family to being a good husband those kinds of things and but it's how I understand being a good husband Um, it's where the rubber meets the road and so I uh, I think that being a good man in Sparta being a manly man And Sparta looks the hell of a lot different from being a man in America I mean you would say the manliness matter the problem is right?
That's your sort of ideal of manliness. He's Christ. I know right. I can't believe it.
I next to the next question. Yeah, uh, I was just actually wondering if It just occurred to me that I wonder if the word courage actually occurs in this biography I know it did my translation, but I'm just wondering if that's because I'm only Wondering this because I actually one I suspected zenefan thinks the Spartan men were not in fact courageous or manly that they had something else Some other quality like uh, thumos or something like that. Uh sort of spirited this or something instead of Um instead of manliness in other words that the Spartans had a semblance of courage that wasn't courage in fact That you were kind of hitting at this name, but there's something sort of incomplete about being the kind of man that a Spartan man was I say that because I run any around because I would never say that to the face of a Spartan man because oh no no way He squished me. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah All right, our next question, uh, comes in the form of verse from sam stoner my old friend sam stoner at sam stoner online on twitter Just join twitter and he's already making quite the splash.
He says like hergus like hergus strong and tall Are you the greatest founder of them all if you are not admit your disgrace and tell us who should have pride of place Well, that's a nice. Uh, thank you for writing the questions. It was nice I just checked by the way at least one of the instances of courage was not the greek word for courage that aerosol uses and for example The ethics it's thrass us which is more like boldness or something like this. I haven't checked them all so with their semikis's name Exactly.
Yeah, I think Moses. I think Moses gives like hergus a run for his money. Oh, yeah, for sure We should do it. Oh, that's a long area.
Yeah, that's a great question Yeah, I know greatest founder. I'd say what I'd say Moses Ray crock Ray crock. He's a good one golden arches, Alex imprinted on my heart. I thought you surely say grandpa of grandpa's cheese bar He's founded the cheese and porium Rach told you found the world headquarters of nice people So talking about a regime having gone downhill.
Yeah, so bruise a haunted junior at bruise a haunted junior I think we really answered this but I think I just posed the question of people think we have an answer to this good food for thought What is it like hergus's authority for his walls reason religion tradition patriotism? A similar question from at mr. W bond. Can we understand like hergus and spardin constitution without Apollo I you know, I really wish we'd had a little more time to get into this I wish I got into it one more room on my own reading But it does seem as though the the alpha gortles are the grounding for everything that he does and so it Yeah, it does seem to be a religious family and I didn't mention this either But you know it goes to Ayone and he goes to egypt is one of the things in egypt Ostensibly is the more severe the two Ayone being the luxurious is one of the things that would you know egypt and then to put his famous for the Will these these very severe priests is that what like hergus learned in egypt?
I was looking I didn't see a lot of evidence for that but I was that's what I was thinking might be there Yeah, and he also has some remarks about when like hergus is writing Homer's poems regaining reputation. They weren't necessarily right So he was able to borrow from them what he wanted in a sense, you know Um now I'm gonna close on this we got two questions from the good in theory podcast and like everybody knows everybody knows We don't like partially examined Nonsense, right? Yeah those guys are I'll tell you that if there's yeah, they believe in the solid G. So they yeah, so now the good theory podcast guys They seem we hold on do we like them?
I just gonna worry. I think they've been friendly. Yeah, they've been friendly Okay, all right. I just think that's from my opinions and these things.
Yeah Now they say what are plutarck's motivations in the story? I think we've talked about them. I'd like to say something about that He says also is still arctic oligarchic more because of the spartanate and population or because of the garysia Slash spartanates or both or is it not an oligarchy? Now I don't know what to do with the second question is a little bit about my pay grade, but I do think he was the son right?
Yeah, that is the son right so uh So but I do think that's for plutarck's motivations We talked about this a bit when it comes to the republic But look if we start from this basic point that Greg and David both made that there's something admirable admirable about the Spartans They have a reputation They seem to attract a certain sort of person and they're really intrigued by their regime If you figure that a person like that is likely to pick up this book They're going to hear about all the difficulty like rickas had the wrists right the chance events the chance success that he had his circumstances etc etc They're going to hear about how we institute everything and they might have a sense that it's not probable But then when they get to the end and they hear all these kind of uglier aspects of swartan society They might think to myself themselves. I don't think I want to live like this right? That doesn't seem to be a really pretty life And so I'd suggest that plutarck's motivation overall similar to Plato's that he's trying to temper the politically ambitious Who might read the stories of founders and want to model themselves on it? I think that I don't know about the new month Maybe we want to talk about that at some point But I do think that when you read Plutarck's life of so and for example That's a regime with lots of laws that tend to change quite a bit I think it looks messier, but it might actually be more desirable in the end So I wonder if you maybe want to think about those as a pair as achieving a kind of objective book Yeah, that's right.
No, that's a great point you're bringing up It's the whole cosmos of plutarck is a political education. So you're right Are we doing anything more mailbag stuff or is that it? I think that's good Well, make sure you tell people do the schveel alix do the schveel Like us subscribe review us read us read us well donate donate donate All these are coming up. Yeah, how does it coming up?
I need to feed my family turkey. I gotta buy deli meat because I can't Actually turkey the regime of maryland told me that I can't you know I can't get any meat unless I stab and kill my neighbors in the dead of night and steal their meat and you know It's I've been acculturated in that manner. I'm in a jam. Please don't All right.
Thank you all for joining us on the new thickery