Proving Ad Impact in 2026

Today on Stacking Growth, we are excited to present our recent B2B Roundtable featuring Matt Chanella and Primer's Keith Putnam-Delaney as they talk about proving ad impact in 2026. They cover how B2B teams can use modern demand strategies, B2C channels, and incrementality testing to prove true ad impact. They also highlight omni-channel expansion beyond LinkedIn, data-driven measurement, and practical ways to validate lift across pipeline and revenue. Hope you all enjoy!

Alright guys, what's going on man? Welcome to our live event webinar, whatever it is you want to call it. We're going to be talking about proving ad impact in 2026, which I have Keith Putnam-Delaney who is CEO of Primer here with us. Keith, you should describe a little bit about what Primer does, but I've been using Primer for almost all of my clients this year to do exactly what we're going to talk about here, which is utilizing more B2C channels for B2B motions.

I've been getting tremendous results with it, especially with a couple of my client use cases where we linked into just being a really expensive channel, wanting to just be more omni-present in other places and have seen terrific results with it. I'm going to walk through a couple of those aspects with you. Keith, can you want to introduce yourself and also describe a little bit about what Primer does before we get a little bit into the material overall? Yeah, sure.

Hi everybody. Matt, thanks for having me. So, private my backgrounds in B2B growth marketing, and one of the challenges I think we've all, I faced back when I was running Chunks of the Dropbox Group team was expanding into B2C channels and making it work. And I think now as we go into the new year with rising sort of LinkedIn CPMs, which we're going to talk about with sort of search, hit it, hit it, paid search hitting a ceiling, you know, there's no choice but to start looking at other channels.

And one of the hardest things about expanding into other channels is actually measuring them for a variety of reasons, but like it's, you know, one of the biggest ones being desktop versus mobile. And yeah, that's so it's a strange topic to be passionate about, but I am. And with Primer, what we do is we sort of, we help with the audience targeting side of things. So we built essentially a database of B2B contacts that you can, you have really high match rates on B2C channels.

So sort of taking the, yeah, taking your database or our database and allowing you to match it across Google, across meta, Reddit, TikTok. And that sort of helps unlock, I think, a lot of these channels because if you can't reach your audience with, you know, constraints, you can make it profitable. Those channels are profitable. For sure.

All right. So I'm excited to go through that here. I remember when I like, everyone does like their end of year kind of predictions, right? Everyone's going to, everyone's going to come out with those over the next four weeks.

And I remember last year, just watching more people talk about the need for more direct attribution from campaigns. And I remember just watching that conversation happen only then and getting a little app eclectic about it. Like I just, I just, it's such a constraining way to run your paid media when most people are passive consumers of your content on ad, on ad platforms and you basically constrain yourself where you limit yourself to only doing direct response marketing by and large when you limit yourself to that kind of thinking. And I think what I want to try to bring in to the group here is thinking a little bit more through the idea of holdouts and incrementality and then like measuring just differences in like, I do this, I do X and Y happens and here's the leading indicators and the lagging indicators of what happens with that.

So that's what I really want to walk through here overall with the group and let me share a screen and we can, I can get the, I'll get this deck up real quick. And yes, I will walk through, we will share this afterwards just as a perfunctory, just a perfunctory promise overall. But yeah, I think like one of the things that like I'm seeing that I know that you see as well with a lot of your clients is just like, what's happening in B2B ads at the moment? And I think there's like four things that I really identify, especially with, because we really live in an advertising duopoly in B2B SaaS where like it's Google and it's LinkedIn and every other channel is just too hard to convince finance or senior leadership to, to pour any, any, any fuel budget or energy into.

So I think the big things that I'm seeing overall that are, that are troubling people with other channels like that is one single loss. Like website pixel tracking is less and less effective. You have on, on meta, you have seven day and one day attribution windows that makes it really difficult with long purchase cycles, right? To, to make that, to make that work unless you're tracking like a very, very, very first indicator like a demo request or, you know, if you have the ability to track a book meeting, you can get that as well.

Um, and the other thing is just like, there's no cross device tracking really anymore across these platforms, right? Most of what you deliver in an app platform is mobile. Like if you, if you break your devices out on, on LinkedIn, you're going to see like 80 to 90% of the impressions you serve are mobile and there is no way to control for that, right? There's a little more control with that on meta, but like, even if you were to do that, you'll spend a lot more on mobile still because that's what most people are on when they're consuming.

Um, the, the, also it's just like the cack goes up as you scale, man, your head counts, your budgets, your targets, it just creates a lot of go to market in efficiency, right? And you're, and you can ask to spend a lot more quickly without really being able to validate that spend overall. So you just kind of throw more money at the problem without really having a plan for figuring out how effective it is. Um, the ABM fatigue is really real.

You're just seeing a lot of pushback on the demand base and the six cents instances, you know, they're uber expensive. It takes a ton of alignment overall with sales and marketing. Um, that is difficult to orchestrate. And then the other thing is ABM is a little self limiting for a lot of companies as well.

I mean, when you constrain yourself to a thousand accounts to go, to go promote to or campaign to, like, you know, you're really only getting measured on those overall. So I think having like, having the ability to have a dual motion and ABM and a straight, more, more of a segmentation targeting positioning kind of kind of approach where you understand your CRM data and don't constrain necessarily to an account list is, is our things to consider. And then the channel costs, like LinkedIn, there are, there's more and more entrants on the LinkedIn all the time. There's more products that LinkedIn is rolling out that leadership ads, uh, you know, there's a conversation that's just a lot of different LinkedIn ad types and it's just making the costs more expensive, right?

You can do the manual bidding. You can, you can put bid strategies in place, but anytime you put a bid strategy in like manual bidding, for instance, it, it puts a thumb on your reach, you know, like that's just, that's just kind of a consequence of doing that. So like everyone talks about like doing manual bid strategies and getting 80% audience penetration is a lot of magic thinking when put into practice. You actually get more like 30, maybe 40% audience penetration depending.

Um, so I think that's really like kind of a, kind of attention that's happening a lot in B2B advertising right now where I think these four things are kind of paramount to that, to that do anything you want to add on that. Yeah, I mean, I just don't think people think enough about or talking about the mobile desktop divide, right? And how that's fundamentally shifted performance marketing for B2B in the last four to five years, you know, it used to be that majority of search Google search was still desktop. It used to be even like a couple of years ago that, um, you know, LinkedIn was 50 50 or, you know, more or less.

That shift means like multi-touch attribution breaks. And everybody basically justifies their budget based on, you know, first touch last touch or something in between. Very influenced, right? Yeah.

And that's like, I mean, like just taking a first principles approach to it, you can't do that anymore, right? Like, like my sessions on my mobile device aren't going to be tied back to me who ends up converting on desktop. So you're constantly under counting those channels that are mobile and you're skewing yourself towards the channels that still have some higher proportion of desktop. And then that exacerbates the rising costs of those channels, right, of search and out of LinkedIn.

So sort of like a snowball effect. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the cross device thing is just, it's just so important to like, you can't understand it and there's no way to game it for yourself.

Even if you split it on where you can, like you can do it on Reddit and you can do it on meta, but like just, it's just, it's just market dynamic. So many more people are active on those places on their phone than on their, on their desktop. Like we as B2B marketers are extreme exceptions to that rule because that's our job, right? So if you're doing it, if you're promoting a marketer, it's just tell people, yeah, you might see a little bit of a higher skew there.

But if you're going outside of that, it's, you know, there's really no way to game that for yourself primarily. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're doing a lot of people aren't doing that could be effective, right?

And it's funny how channels are cyclical in that way. You know, like nobody does did events for a while. Now everybody's doing events. Now it's saturated and so on and so forth, you know, out of home and then out of home.

So these things happen in cycles. So it's sort of, again, taking a little bit of the, like the, the contrarian viewpoint in your strategy can actually pay dividends. And that's why I'm excited about this topic because if you can measure it, you can justify it, right? Yeah.

Yeah. And then just going to this, like just the state of media is hard. You know, we take all the kind of other aspects, but like, let's just get it down to brass tax and just running paid media right now, especially like paid social, which is what most of us here run, right? Primarily like there's, there's four issues.

I think that are just, I think are silently like really killing people. And one, and the first one I think is just direct the limits of direct response. Like it's, it's expensive to run and you got to get it right initially. It takes a ton of alignment with sales.

You need to really, really nail your offer. There's a lot that goes into that. We covered that in our last event with Kai Shaw. He's tremendously talented at that.

We are doing a lot of the things that, that he's built that business on and working on that indirect response. But there's, it's hard to get that right. And it just has a limit. There's a ceiling to it.

Don't only so many people in your, in your son, your sellable, in your sellable, tangible market, you are in market at a given time, you know, so you'll be able to convert those into a sales process. The brand investment piece, right? It's super murky to measure, you know, like multi-touch influenced. It works when the company is growing.

Like when, when everything's going well, these things tell a good story and, you know, people nod their head and they're like, okay, but when it's, when it's stagnant or when it's not, and yet those two things still show positive ROI, then all of a sudden people start asking questions like, well, just how impactful are those impressions or, you know, is that money better spelled elsewhere? And other things, those things really only work to justify LinkedIn because it's so costly to run. So you see when dream data or when hockey stack are putting these state of multi-touch attribution reports out, like they, they, what do they always conclude? They always conclude LinkedIn is the chat.

And then the signal quality. I mean, I think this is another big and we talked about the, we talked a lot about, or you already talked about the cross device, right? And the device divide. But like the other thing is just like because of the website pixel issues and the device, and the device aspect, like the investment in signals in your page channels is just so much more important now.

Marketers are losing that argument or that debate with info sec and IT, the need to invest in offline conversion tracking in Cappy, you know, like these things are just so paramount now to get good signal back into your ad platform. And like marketers need to really paint a compelling case for that for themselves going into next year. Otherwise your platforms are just going to are really just going to, are going to be inefficient, at least if you look at it at channel level and then ad fraud, right? Like, um, ad fraud is super rampant if you're not installing ad fraud right now on any channel, but especially PMACs campaigns on Google, meta and Reddit, TikTok are enormous creators of ad fraud.

You need ad fraud on your on your on your sites right now. You need dedicated paid landing pages for almost anything you're running for paid media to isolate that traffic because you can't do it against your main pages. And you need to be aggressively excluding countries and IP addresses and like all of those things. So I know for you, single quality is definitely something you're pretty passionate about.

So I wonder if you want to double tap on anything here. I mean, I think that the ad fraud and the signal quality somewhat go hand in hand like I've talked about the cross device, but the other the other key is that if you're not pushing server side data back into these ad channels, you're you they're penalizing you dramatically. And this is coming for LinkedIn, by the way, like more and more like LinkedIn's always a couple of years behind Google and meta in terms of their sophistication on this topic, but most topics. But at the end of the day, like, you know, if you're not if you're not pushing in server side events and using the conversion APIs, you're going to get dramatically penalized, especially as they start pushing more and more forcing you into these AI formats and these AI formats than to get ad fraud because you have less control over your placements, right?

So yeah, it's walking that line there, but you can make you can make things like performance max and advantage plus work. So long as you you do the you push the signals back, right? And do the due diligence, right? Like in also to set the expectation with your team, because when you're doing those things like you're going to have it's going to be pretty messy for a couple of weeks while you just strip out all the bad traffic.

I think the key thing is don't build retargeting initial like right off the bat with those kinds of campaigns. If you if you can, these demand change campaigns, these these these key math campaigns because your data is going to be pretty messy for a couple of weeks while you figure out where the fraud's coming from, control forward and then get that cleaner traffic in over others ad scripts. You can also add to help with that to get like branded search and branded things out. And then the other thing is, I mean, let's talk CPMs all LinkedIn, man, because the CPMs, they shrink or expand your dollar so much.

And CPMs just equate the reach and the power of your dollar, right? So when I see like the same audience, and this is me using Keith's product, by the way, for both of these use cases, but like just the CPM efficiency on getting targeting the same audience in different channels is wild for me. And like example one is a much more of a direct response kind of client. So like we're running a lot of lead gen campaigns, conversation ads, things like that, like trying to get people into our offers.

It's also a very small tam. So the smaller the audience, the larger the CPM, that's just how the game works overall. And then example two, sales software, it's a little bit, this is a more specific sales software use case, but like again, huge CPM swings, like we're getting $62 CPMs across campaigns on LinkedIn, $4.50 on that with more reach also on that as well. And if you, and people may ask, well, how good is that audience?

Well, you know, if you put a website deanonymization tool where you want a little bit of direct response in those channels and just see what the lead quality looks like, you know, you'll be able to validate how good that audience is pretty quickly, right? You know, and you've turned, you got to do things like, and I think that is making it super hard. You got to turn advantage plus all the advantage plus stuff off that you can. Like it is, it's an enormous, just place of noise.

It's the new audience expansion. It's just it's bad. Don't recommend that. But anything you want to add, add here Keith and I should let you talk a little bit more.

It's not. I know I'm loving it. I'm just nodding. You know, I think it's the solution that most people are doing on LinkedIn, I think, is to shrink their audiences, right, in some ways, which drives up the CPMs, but it's this effort to get higher audience penetration, right?

And to keep it higher quality so that, you know, the dollars go further and that can work for only so long, right? And then you just sort of get, you tap out. And that's, yeah, I think that's it. Yeah.

At the end of the day. So I'm just going to the power of your dollar here, like LinkedIn, it's getting increasingly direct response for me as ad unit dollars increase. The brand awareness plays that work on LinkedIn that are cost effective, like single image is just losing more and more effectiveness. I think for a lot of companies, just because it's more expensive, the reach is lower, there's a lot of people running it, like it's a no known to run brand awareness or website is it ejected with single image, right?

So the things that are working, and part of this is just the zeitgeist of LinkedIn. But it's thought leader ads with influencer plays, it's measuring video correctly. So like a lot of people like to measure video by cost per click and that's not the way to measure it. You want to look at cost per completed view, which, you know, when you look at it that way, it's actually a very effective ad unit at the end of the day.

It's just you have to be comfortable with exactly what we talked about, which is, you know, it's a zero click, it's a zero click kind of format, right? And then CTV, which is interesting because there's not a lot of overlap in audience. Like you'll serve more on CTV to people who are not super active on LinkedIn, but it does build a good retarget audience. And so I like it as an awareness play.

Obviously, you get the full, you get the full ad unit, you get the full video consumed. I've been seeing really nice lift from that with a couple clients that I've run it for. But yeah, anything. The only other thing I throw out is the like LinkedIn, you have to say a breast of the new LinkedIn ad formats because they very clearly skew the algorithm towards whatever's new.

You know, like image ads are the oldest. So the next big one coming is influencer ads, which is kind of interesting to keep your eye after that one. They've already rolled it out. They have that partnerships tab now that you can go find people who mention your brand and then just go immediately click to click the prize.

It's a lot of employees, but you can find people off who are not employees as well. And then there's people who just do a good job organizing that also on the backend as well, right? And then on search, like your dollar is just ongoing as far. Nonbrand search has really, really plateaued with AI, man.

AI is just hemorrhaging organic, it's hemorrhaging paid. It's also again, these are very old and very saturated channels. And there's a lot of like any kind of manual control that you execute on Google, like exact match, which we still think is we still strongly feel is best practice for a lot of companies. Like you get penalized for that more, they want you to go to broad.

Expanding into PMAX works, but it also leads to a lot of bot traffic and Keith, you talked about like ways to control for that and we talked about what you can do with that as well. Yeah, I mean, what the challenge with PMAX is, you know, there's not a lot you can do to constrain the algorithm. There's really just two things you can do. One is you can provide a signal inside of the PMAX asset group that basically tells Google, hey, it's essentially an audience, right?

And it tells Google, hey, go for this audience, try as much as possible or people similar. And then you can suppress certain keywords. Yeah, you can, if you have a big enough addressable market and you're sending back those server side signals, we have customers who are seeing a ton of success with PMAX. Again, it's like, it's a question of optimization.

You can't expect it overnight. The other thing I would say is the other area where I'm seeing a rise and just the effectiveness of our own ads is shifting more budget away from non-brand search to brand search. So chasing, you know, it's not always the nicest move, but chasing after competitors and bidding on their branded keywords has proven over the last like few months to be by far the most effective search. I'm, I'm, I'm seeing that too as well.

And a lot of that is because some of those category terms are just super saturated, right? Like if you want to bid in the CRM category and you're a small business, you're a small player and it's like, it's a hundred dollars a click, you know, unless you want to really put manual bidding in place, but then you might not be courting the right people when you do something like that. So finding, finding competitors you want to try to compete against in that space, especially if it's a segmented version of CRM like is been effective, especially with really good copywriting and really good landing page and a really compelling differentiation against who you are competing against, right? Yeah.

Invest in those compare pages to that strategy. And the other reason I think is because the, my sense, I don't have hard data to back this up is that you get less AI generated responses when you search for a brand term, right? So your ad is therefore closer to the top of the page, right? Yeah, 100%.

And then I think the other thing is just getting more into like the real like nitty-gritty niches. Like one thing things we're testing right now and things I'm very curious to test with PaySearch going into the next year is looking at like trade organizations. Like are there relevant trade organizations that have good volume and very cheap cost per click where you're just kind of arbitraging audience that way? And then another thing is like if you can get really deep into like, I have one kind of kind of is in the medical device space and like one thing I'm looking at with them is like medical billing codes and stuff like that their audience would search for that you can also utilize to try to again find audience where there's lots of volume and you're likely getting people who are fit for you.

Other thing is trade shows as well. Like there's trade shows and events that you probably go to where your audience is there. Again, probably not a lot of competition for those kinds of terms other than the company that's sponsoring the show and if it's something that's relatively popular that's another good way to kind of arbitrage PaySearch and develop some audience and build good retargeting for yourself. So you just got a cool idea.

Yeah. I don't know about the trade show. Yeah. So you've got to find areas just to like just a test for yourself where like you're not playing the same game as everyone else.

You're trying to find a new game in an old format to play. Yeah. So I want to bring up real quick just just that the brand Tam Shop Lips. So like we're talking a little bit about these and like how does that actually manifest?

I have a couple of examples here overall with a couple of clients that I've worked with over the course of this year. So this one client, this is a sales software client where we created a lot of book called Lips inbound and book called Lips out to two quarters. So the challenge that we were hitting with this client, we were running a small kind of a smaller account based social strategy and it was too focused on two fewer accounts. We had pretty flat inbound overall key 40 key one on the year.

So one of our shifts we did was we wanted to really expand who we were targeting a little bit here overall. We didn't get into more channels because like, you know, we didn't, I know our their team is only them, but I also recognize their own other channels besides besides it. So we expanded out to meta. We did a lot more on YouTube as well.

And we just went with just more accounts like we went from about 2000 to 11,000 accounts with audience with audiences that we source with primer. We vetted kind of the thermographic makeup of that for them. And then went out and then with your tool, we were really with primer, we were really able to drill down on ICPs, right? Sales operations managers, revenue, revops, you know, VPs on marketing at certain size companies, obviously, like regional sales directors and DPs like this is basically the ICP.

And you know, not all of them. I mean, this is primarily not a company focused on software companies are focused more on manufacturing, on medical device, on wholesale, you know, so, you know, there are other channels besides like then. So we wanted to get on the meta and we wanted to get on to when we get on YouTube, can we were able to really create audience with with primer and go target like we resource like a 40,000 member audience on Google, for instance, and ran Randy to pre roll, you know, kind of gas to CPM a little bit to make sure we got delivery to it because that's just sometimes you have to do that to get what you get to deliver you want. But man, we had we had great results with it overall.

You can kind of see the lifting in bounds. And then the other thing that I use as a leading indicator with the client like this is like, okay, we make this change like what's the first thing we want to see before we get in bounds. I looked at share search overall for them as a big leading indicator when you move into these other channels, what you should be doing is generating more awareness of your brand. So for that, like we use the I use my telescope.

There's a storybook from from from the Maroney's another interesting, very interesting product as well. But like looking at share search as a leading indicator, you can see as soon as we hit that audience expansion and like January's right when we went into meta, like right when it went into this look at that rise and share a search overall for this company and just what that trend line looks like. And then just to kind of put this in perspective, it's not like the category is growing hugely. It's a fairly flat category overall, like this kind of niche sale software space.

And like you look at the brands that we were next to here on the competitor side, the clients will have their share of search through 451% over this period of time. Whereas, you know, they had other competitors like we really did at the expense of another. But the other ones kind of just sort of grew a little bit that the brand four is a very new entry into the market. So they had they had pretty good numbers.

But these, but I use this a lot with companies that's kind of a leading indicator to before we actually realized things like this, which happened in a little bit in Q2, right? And then Q3 really exploded because it takes up you sales cycles or something like that, sometimes to manifest. So for me, this was this is kind of an example of what I did with one client where we expanded out using B2C channels and got the output that we needed overall from it. Yeah.

I mean, how did you feel confident that the quality about the quality of the audience? Because I think that when you expanded to B2C channels, that's always the biggest question, right? Yeah, like casting to wide net. Yeah.

So one thing we did we we had a website de-an analysing software that we installed, right? So we used we used vector in this instance, just the name names for for for for a transparency sake. But we put that in and most of the quality ICP visitors that were getting de-anonymized were honestly coming from meta. They were not coming from LinkedIn.

So like if you had the UTM tracking in and like meta was populating a ton more quality ICP people than then then LinkedIn was like, yeah, there's a little bit of noise in there, but I would say I would say if I'm just like kind of cocktail, there's a back-to-the-knapping guessing about seven out of eight or four out of five were ICP that overall when I was just looking at that data rolling in through Slack. Cool. Love that. All right.

Yeah. So that's how I was validating it. I think the rec response just to make sure they had this interesting learning study that they ran with one of their clients that we probably would have probably would have ran as the rec response to validate but the website de-anon did the job and gave us all the comfort that we were hitting the right people. And we saw it as well like the channel level attribution like we we had booked meetings also as a goal that we were pixel tracking and you know we were at peak getting you know over 20, 25 a month in the in the in the from it.

So like we were seeing it in channel on top of like on top of seeing just the overall lift across the CRM. So you know just a little bit just a little bit more detail on that overall. Awesome. And then just one more snapshot overall for for oh and this is the other client that I have and this was a this is a super small tan.

So this is made this client like really difficult because you know LinkedIn was a LinkedIn's a really limiting channel like this company target surgeons at the end of the day. It's a bit it's a very similar economics to SAS because it's a single use medical device product that's about $12,000 a pop the average surgeon produces about $300,000 in revenue for them or $32,000 in revenue for them a year. Excuse me. I was looking at one case to actually this morning it was giving him 300,000 this year.

So he was a bit of an outlier but we needed an omnichannel approach really here because LinkedIn was giving us this really pronounced ceiling right like we just were we were like stuck at a certain level overall because we just weren't hitting enough tamp because they were active elsewhere like LinkedIn's just not a big channel for them. So we ran B2C we used meta and we used Reddit we used primer to do this I used I used we use clay a little bit also to do the enrichment and throw and put that audience in but we were actually able to natively target as well within primer and then we we took this very small tan we got in about 44% year of year this was a zero this was a zero to 100 kind of client as well they weren't doing really any inbound before they brought us into get that stood up and you know we've gone from we've gone from what we what we got last year and we're gonna we are going to be you know 60% 75% probably end of the year on their inbound and if you look at the financial impact because we model this out they have like a these surgeons are very high intent when they come in with these with these kinds of things because they're looking for new pathology so they have a 60% conversion rate from the amount of the surgeon using the device revenue per surgeon for years 32,000 so we would estimate like 1.5 million basically revenue that they're going to realize within probably 12 months or so after after running this so it's about $3.50 an amount revenue per $1 ad spend right now overall and expanding on the meta has been critical for the volume and us getting their overall and again like you know the quality there has been good we see more from that now than we see from LinkedIn and we could not have done this without you know getting getting tooling that was going to allow us to target with confidence in in that and in red overall. Awesome. And anyway I feel like this was one of like when you and I talked on this you were surprised a little bit at this one because you were like a small Tam and like that's not typically not who you go for it's not your target target client.

No well it's not just my target client it's like it's a little when you think like a small Tam and you think like a B2C channel you don't think those two things go together because typically like to optimize a Google to optimize a meta you need scale right you reach you got to feed the algorithm or data so in this case you guys are almost like overriding the algorithm and still making it effective and you had other means of measurement which is great you know I love hearing that but it's not like you know if you're an e-commerce store and you're advertising a meta you can kind of like set it and forget it a little bit you know so that's why and then you know some of our customers are more like big market PLG companies like Ramford Rippling and they can you know they can go really big and broad and let the algorithm optimize so I love I love like again like a contrarian sort of story yeah that's definitely what this use case was very very contrarian but super effective like and I really enjoyed this use case in particular because I think it shows for a lot of consultants who work with smaller companies and like this is a big investment like it does work in this scenario for you if you you know if you especially if you understand where your audience actually where their water in full is and for a lot of these people it's much more so meta and that's been that's been something we've seen play out overall. I want you to talk a little bit about through one but maybe this is something you're super passionate about because essentially we've created this construct in B2V's ass where like it's big it's big tooling it's big account journeys and you know there's instances like Isaac Ware from User Gems who's very much anti this and I believe User Gems is a is a primer customer so like I want you to talk through this a little bit because it's something I think you're super passionate about it's something where what you do fits in really well to it. Yeah well I mean I think what happens you know with the in software at least in SAS like with COVID with you know kind of a pullback in budgets there was a big push towards ABM and 6 cents had its moment where they grew like fucking crazy everybody was like we need to get 6 cents we need to get 6 cents and then what inevitably happened with that is you know all this attention went towards ABM and all these startups started popping up like biting off different pieces of functionality of 6 cents and candidly like doing it a lot better right so now you don't really you don't need to buy 6 cents unless you want to but you can get a lot of the different pieces of functionality from from other tools and I think when people talk about ABM they cast like they paint with a very broad brush and ABM is a lot of different things so you know you can you can essentially like you know help yourself reach the understand like optimize your campaigns and reach your target market across more channels if you mix in a variety of tools depending upon your needs right yeah I think that's what we're trying to out like you know that's what this slide is trying to outline is there's you know you you can do the accounting stuff with a dream data a hockey stack you can frequency cap companies on LinkedIn with a tool like Fibler you can use like you know RV to be rolled out sort of the first contact level reveal but now Vector has it warmly is added it on we have added it on it's like everybody's got website revealed out you know it's sort of like the fact though and then you've got clay you've got common room you've got keep like you've got all these tools to build your account list that are full of different signals and data points and yeah so I just think there's a lot of in one way it sort of sucks because you have to evaluate more tools but the idea that there's one solution that solves all your problems is sort of bullshit yeah yeah I think it's like there's different investment levels for all of these so like whether you're a big team or a small team you can do this kind of kind of on the cheap or if you need something that's more robust because you're a bigger team you need more orchestration you can go there as well like yeah Fibler and Zen ABM which is a relatively novel product but Amelia from user pilot is a very big advocate of it like these are very inexpensive ABM account journey tools that you can implement I mean we're talking I'm talking in the case of Fibler I'm you're talking like sub sub $3,000 a year and Zen ABM is like sub $10,000 a year with a lot of functionality I might add so I'm not bringing these in necessarily advocate for anyone over the other just to paint the picture that you can build this out yourself without having to go six figure one-stop shop tooling and you can piece it together for what fits your budget you know like so if you need to do ABM I'm just saying that there are options out there to consider and you need to figure out what fits best for you and your needs and do that and that's that's really the only point of me going through this I'm not advocating for any of these tools or the other I've looked at them all I've seen them all and I know people who work at these companies but like but yeah I mean there's just options out there now to do ABM effectively that fits your need and your functionality and your budget totally yeah and on this point I think you threw in here right it's like the I think ABM's at its moment people are waking up to the fact that it's limiting you know because it's not just marketing for sales source right it's everybody working hand in hand you might need to expand your account list you know to actually hit your goals as these goals get bigger and bigger and then you know if you're doing ABM most of the time you're just limited to like sales outreach LinkedIn and field marketing and I think the point we're trying to get to here is that there's ways to do ABM you just brought up like a very niche TAM and having some really strong effectiveness on a channel like meta it's true for running ABM programs and expanding beyond just LinkedIn and I wouldn't you know necessarily do programmatic for the same issue of like fraud and bot traffic yeah and then you know fibular is an ABM these tools allow you to push like like imprec link in impression level data back in your CRM so you can paint the entire account journey you can prove your impact better there's just a lot of there's a lot of functions and like and choices now in ABM that didn't use to exist so broadening your mindset there is the I think the key to making it effective next year 100% so let's talk about proving impact because we've done a lot of framing to get to this one of the things that Keith and I are very much aligned on is like the idea that you're going to prove impact through last touch first touch or self-reported or even sales reporter attribution is a fallacy these things are recency bias their signals like we champion and we do use all of those attribution touches they they help paint a tapestry of a story but you know the real the real stuff happens when you when you are able to prove impact without having to rely on I think real relatively weak signal there so for me I'm I become much more passionate about doing lift test and looking in incrementality as more of a long-term longitudinal test and to me it's just more like a larger larger sample size to look at overall or you can tell more what's impactful right so so we talk a lot about like lift test and I think for people who are running this there's a couple of things there's a couple of points of tension that happen one of which is the opportunity cost of not advertising to one half of your list or one half of your audience right and there's like well if we do that then we're just missing half of our market for the opportunity to convert them and I think that there's ways that you can get around doing stuff like that like I think that the truest one of the truest and cleanest ways to do it is to actually split your account list and advertise the one and not advertise to the other and take the take the omni channel approach with the one you advertise to and look at it over two sales cycles and then see the difference in pipeline you may be even after one sale cycle and see if there's a difference in pipeline I think it's a continuous test but I think for people who can't afford to do that I think the other idea you could you could float out there and utilize is doing a channel based income mentality where you split test LinkedIn which everyone which everyone for believes is the ultimate ABM advertising channel and then everything else right so you can split your switch your audience and half and test it that way and say okay what's the incremental difference between this channel and this channel and this set of channels in terms of like creating incrementality across across the business for whoever comes inbound overall but for me it's about justifying budgets against those incremental outcomes instead of that last click proof that a lot of people are relying on and I think that this is like sort of something funny it's like in a way generational like I came up marketing in the 2010s 2020s and lift tests weren't really something that I learned about but if you're a marketer from the 90s if you're like a madman style marketer that's exactly how you measure the impact of your you know TV campaigns right or billboards yeah so I think as we like it's kind of we're going back to the the tools that we used to you know people used to use on a regular basis zoom for example right they didn't invest in digital at all in the during their explosive period of growth they simply did out of home and they would do geo based lift tests right they would run big out of home campaigns in certain markets and then you know they would compare Memphis and Lexington and see where they got to rise right that's like the classic way of doing it and it's it's the only real way to prove with the testable rigor if you know adding something on actually is making a difference right yeah because you just get such a concentration of impressions and spend to that against a area that doesn't get treated like you'll just you'll know you don't need the attribution side of it to necessarily prove it to you'll see little signals within there to kind of like confirm what you've seen either in channel or self-reported or a copy whatever you have but like you know it really comes down to like just putting a huge concentration towards one part and not the other and just knowing knowing the difference overall and it's funny that we've gone back to that right and it does prove that the core tenets of marketing the foundation all kind of four p elements that the things that that people proved out in the early advent of like you know the industrial revolution and all the way through to what we're doing now still hold true largely you know I mean we we tech is invented a lot of ways to do attribution but I mean honestly it really comes down I think to just having having a method like this where you can prove it more effectively I couldn't couldn't agree with that more and I think it's like a very different conversation that you can have with your finance team with your boss when you could go in and say we got this much more revenue because we did this like you I can prove that to you right that I don't know many marketers that that are equipped to do that in the you know kind of the multi-touch works and then like just in terms of like how would I do either these tests so the split test is I think very easy to do right like the test like you're answering to you're answering a fundamental question what's the impact of this channel you know if I were to take attribution completely out of the question with actually didn't exist and I wanted to put money into this channel how would I prove the impact right and I always like to use it as a thought exercise as well like if I do you didn't exist how would you prove this worked you know like and so what you would do is you would design a test like this so like in the test one you just split the account list in half that random assuming that you know your ICP you have proper segmentation you're building a large enough account list right to give yourself room to know one way or the other it's hopefully a few thousand at least accounts advertise that list only then and don't advertise to the other half maintain don't come in but maintain every other marketing and sales activity right like you or you are isolating for that channel do outbound do email invite into events you know just don't use LinkedIn and then compare account progression two to three x after the sales cycle maybe it's not going to get all the way to revenue but you can find at least at the pipeline level probably what the impact of that is and you probably are doing that more on the account volume as opposed to the pipeline dollars because ACB's can fluctuate a little bit but that's how you test something like that to tell the difference for yourself and then and going back to the opportunity cost and saying okay it's too expensive for us to not well you can utilize B2C kind of channel testing right here and say instead of that we split the account list in half randomly we load one list in audience to LinkedIn and we use the we use primer for instance and we go to meta and Reddit and YouTube with the with the other list right and then we advertise to each with roughly the same budget and then we compare account progression to the three x after the cycle and then we'll know like how much more effective is LinkedIn than these other channels because you know everyone you're really trying to confirm or deny hypothesis here and everyone's working hypothesis B2B is the is LinkedIn's the best advertising channel for P2P and you know how many people have actually tested that so just my own thought there I want to let you walk through this other slide here because and then the also the catch go tips on experiment design that's something that you've been working on that fits really well into this proving impact it's something that you help answer for people so I want to give you space and then I want to save a few minutes for questions yeah so I think you know what we're what I'm showing here is a new feature we're rolling out over the course of the next couple weeks um since we control the audience right inside of primer we have the ability to create a control group that won't see your ads like no chance of exposure and a likely exposed group right so and then compare the conversion rates of those two populations across different stages of the funnel um to to understand basically the incremental lift that's being created you know this is built-in functionality that we sort of realized it was like wait is this like a no-brainer to add this into our product um you know so we did um which we're really excited about um you know and you can take it down to this little significance when you get to deal with one you can take it down to an incremental return on ad spend by looking at you know sort of the amount of money you spent against this audience um so it's something we're really yeah we're really pumped to be to be releasing um to make to basically put this on autopilot what Matt was just talking about on the next slide though you know there are there are like very simple ways you can you know more more tactical ways you can set it up yourself don't have to use forever um but you know you gotta you do have to the key here is you have to you have to invest a little bit of time in preparation and I think that that's always one of the hardest things as a marketer is like putting on a fire putting on a fire um this does take this does mean a commitment to more upfront planning um so for example you know you to create the the you know control group test group you can put all your different accounts in two separate Salesforce campaigns or two separate HubSpot lists and then you can measure the account progression that way right um as they move through the funnel and you can push them into the ad channels using functionalities in those tools um another key thing is to make sure you have a big enough list uh when he's late in half to achieve some degree of statistical significance um you know the bigger the list the faster you the more the quicker you will get to stat sig and then budget also matters right you have to put if you have to get the reach in order to also get the conversions to then get the statistical significance so these are all sort of key elements to keep in mind um and uh and then you also have to have the discipline to keep the setup the same if you're doing um you know if you're you're you're trying to run yeah just just it's like an AV test right you don't want to change too many variables at once right um so these are all just like rigor that i think you have to have in order to uh to do this well but it's not that hard at the end of the day and it's really really powerful yeah 100 percent all right that was uh that was awesome so i'm gonna stop sharing and put everyone back in here and we have a few minutes for questions but uh Keith man that was that was so much fun i enjoyed that enjoy going after you so much i'm so glad i just perfectly ended with a few minutes four questions overall so uh we still got well we still got plenty of people here for sure uh are there any i don't see any questions right now but um but overall just any and that's okay by the way i think largely what i want to try to conclude here for everyone is like your audience exists outside of linkedin and outside of google and i'm and we're an agency that spends a lot of ad ad dollars on both those platforms but i discover so many products outside of that b2b products on youtube and on meta and on reddit like it's just there and i'm not just like on ctv like i like ramp is like a huge company right there everyone's darling i probably first discovered them on a ctv ad i think like honestly like it's just it's just not my wheelhouse right but like people become aware of your brand and then kind of follow the the breadcrumbs of like considering you in all kinds ways there's all kinds of different little entry points that exist so i would just i would just challenge anyone here and understanding you have limited ad dollars but are your ad dollars especially for awareness or for a large reach are they best spent on some of the most expensive channels to get that and i think that's just kind of one of the fundamental questions i would i would ask anybody here to think about as they do budget planning going into next year yeah and then if they want if you want to try out other channels just make sure you you know sort of keep in mind i think some of the best practices and consider like highly highly consider um you know lift tests as the best way to prove the impact absolutely all right keith man thanks so much for joining us i appreciate your expertise and your contribution i will i will also just full-throated indoors primer i've used it for a year i love the products i recommend it to several people several clients and i pitch it quite a bit because i know that it unlocks channels for companies that would otherwise be impossible especially if they're going to insist on an avian motion um so if you're running a camp based and like you know you got to be somewhere else other than like then this tool to me is fundamental um so just just just vouching for it overall it's a really good tool keith a really great person to work with this team is involved and reach out they make sure you're getting value out of the products that the service is also terrific as well so you know i'll do my shameless plug for you keith i'll do it myself no i'll do it for you i i invited you because i've gotten value out of the product it kind of spurred this idea as a topic and i want to make sure we didn't just talk about the tool i want to do more practical in designing these things for the audience but yeah i mean definitely big fan of the tool big fan of what you're doing thanks man i appreciate it um yeah and stay primer.com check us out if you're interested um appreciate you having me and yeah uh look forward to chadamor yeah absolutely all right guys have a great Thanksgiving and a happy end of your budget planning because i'm sure that it is going to be a bear going into next year but appreciate y'all we're back next month we do have an AI topic i'm excited to walk through but we'll send us aye get the recording and we will see you all soon man thank you all so much