Watch this here we go ready three two one three two one one One three one three and one going live There's four I'm going to the west coast in three five and four three you saw your first world premiere Three one two go listen air. I have to apologize for my co-op. Hey, we do all the three two ones Yeah, welcome to smartless So will you're back on American soil congratulations. Thank you.
Yeah, did you kiss the tarmac when you got off your your plane? I did I always do that So you you asked him as soon as you get off the plane you say hey, can I just go down the little stairs here on the jetway? I just need to kiss the tarmac. Well, yeah I mean, it's the only way to get off this plane is get off the stairs under the gym I can't we're trying to do a private joke.
It was you definitely went commercial at least right from England Of course it did I had it incredible as you guys saw say that photo at incredible time at Liverpool Yeah with the uregan Shawn will do him really well, you know, he's flying private occasionally. He's going he's on the pitch in Liverpool He's got a real a real porny looking mustache on his face today. Yeah, I'm fresh new haircut Wow boyish. Yeah, I went up to Liverpool.
I watched them play at an field which is their ground It was like such a dream come true for me. I know hang on. Sorry, and I got to my friend Tom I took him up there kindly and that winner Tom Warner and that's nice. Yeah, and Tom on the show He's the best to say so anyway So Tom is part of obviously the group that they on the Red Sox and they own Liverpool and Pittsburgh hangouts So fights it to say Tom is an old friend Jason.
You and I play golf them a number of times He's a great dude and he invited me up to the game. I went up there. It was incredible Billy. Hope they got a win They got a big win against West Ham.
So they did that's fine. Yeah, I was really cool I was like man, I want to know I sent to your kid clap. I go I want to know so I'm kind of good luck and I guess you have to have me back His his assistant coach is like sort of number one right hand guy's guy Pep lenders who's a Dutch football coach He's a massive smartless fan. So Pep.
I know you're listening He's got a seat and Billy Billy Billy who runs the team day to day He's also a massive massive smartless fan listens to every episode really yeah every episode so it was kind of like it It felt very good. They're all happy to well now because I know I know what it would a little you know boy You are in the best sense the world when it comes to Liverpool or is your your one and I've said to people in the past the only the only good thing about being semi recognizable Is that you can get a good table at a restaurant that's hard to book yeah, but most importantly when you meet your heroes There's a there's a there's a there's a decent chance They might know who you are and you can skip all the sort of fan like oh, I'm so sorry Do you mind if I ask you about it? They want to talk to you too? So yeah, it was amazing for you It was amazing was and I don't know if it's because Pep had told you're gonna You're gonna actually knew but you're gonna clap who I totally admire he comes towards me smiling and I of course I do it to everybody I do it to my agent I go hey you're gonna will our net and he goes I know who you are and he came and give me a huge hug it was chapters with me chap He's like what is happening?
I know this is this is so freaking crazy. That's so cool. Sean. We got a chap you mentioned Yeah, we got you know we did but we're you know smartless we are the official podcast of Liverpool football club, you know that's so exciting.
I got a flat tire yesterday. Should we get to the guest? Yeah, no Shut up with gas. Here's the other thing I was gonna say so I come back stateside as we say good Those ones juggling his bosoms.
I come back and I start watching football and American football. Yeah I see you two clowns every ten minutes in your art about that. Yeah in your Verizon spot Yeah, you guys I love you guys both and you're in there and you're hilarious and you guys have obviously great Kim the great Well, spec and Josh Gordon directly. Yeah, and it made me so happy I used to see you guys the problem is that you know They came to us because the iPhone in Verizon is a fan of smartless So they thought to come to us the reason listener that Will is not on that is because he's our he's got a prior commitment with a Phone company.
Yes, I have you Jason. You're right. I have a prior commitment with a phone company But what was fun? I mean Sean basic coming home coming back and seeing you guys on the air It was like I've been gone and I'm like and because it was Monday night for boys look at these guys Very good very good that whole day shawney.
Well likewise now. Wait was that the first time you and I've acted together, right? I think so. Yeah, I think it was yeah, I think it was yeah, I did the dock and everything But that was just us playing I guess we were playing ourselves in this spot too, but yeah anyway Good God you made me laugh hard you both first of all you both look and Jason I want to say that you didn't look great.
You look great. You did not look puffy really A little bit of help in post-production I look like a little bit with a little under the eyes. I think It's called tough production. Yeah, but I don't know listen, you know you got to be pretty on TV.
Yeah, um guys Yeah, let's get to our guest. Okay, this person's got stuff to do Today's guest is a Grammy winner. What just bring him on she has a degree from Stanford. She's a gifted fisherman She's got part Dutch Canadian English Irish Russian roots.
She plays volleyball basketball. She also has multiple Emmys She's a Rhodes scholar and earned a doctor philosophy in politics from Oxford What's this written four books has had a crossword puzzle in New York Times had her own radio show couple of podcasts and her own TV show It's happening. She's a hero to summon inconvenient to others. Please welcome Robert and Elaine's daughter David sister Susan's partner And my one of my personal heroes America's own Rachel and Maddow.
Oh my god. Yeah That's a book Cry This is a top-notch book image. I know I know get to me by saying you got to be pretty to be on TV Okay Yours is very cool Rachel. I've been mistaken for you so many times You should check in in the morning about losing the haircut I've actually noted until he talks Although I got the verbiage on their forget will Amy cracked me up one day.
She said what didn't she call herself? How did she make some kid she said I am I'm on the female Chris Matthews who said that Amy polar? Did she call herself that was I thought it was a funny thing? That's kind of a good party game which MSNBC host are you that is not bad?
I saw your reach. I saw you walking down the street in New York one time like a couple years ago I was a computer start to your story keep going I was I was falling closely behind you in a van And I was like right screw it. I was like no no no I can't I'm too nervous. I was doing nervous Was I doing something weird or was I just walking?
Here's walking Rachel. I am so so excited that you're here You I will with all respect to all of the guests that have been nice enough to say yes to my invites I will say you're one and one a with with radio head for me. Oh well Jason talks about you all I do was watch MSNBC It's 12 hours a day. It's true.
Do you think you are joy-read if you had to be one of us? There isn't anyone I don't love on that. It's anyway I think if I am any other host I think I'm Chris Hayes. I'm Chris Hayes hangs his son for me I can see that you guys seem I've seen you guys I've seen you guys sort of go back and forth a little bit over the years And you seem like you guys legitimately get along very well.
You see I die. Yeah, very collegial workplace here people Like each other but now we no longer have the handoff no a you're only one day a week and that one day a week You're leading now is Jan Psaki another another past yes I love her guest with you guys. Oh good Do you think she's gonna be as good as at the on time handoff as Chris was he was never late? He was so good about cutting off gas and getting to you on time So humbling because he made such an effort to always make sure at 9 0 0 0 I was ready to go whereas I'm always traipsing like a minute and a half into Lawrence's show Oh, you do 10 minutes on his because he makes sure he's got to tell everybody who he's got while he's still got your audience Which I get I would do the same thing wait I got a question Rachel when you it's too kind of to that point when you're what's fascinating to me about what you do is how you Fill in the gaps and you constantly have something to talk about endlessly like like that Is like on a prompter or on a car or on a card or you just like are you done?
How much research before every single show are you just filled with education in your brain where you can just keep talking You're like we do I don't have any other life Like things it's just this so I anything where it's like me talking to the camera I have written it down if it's me asking if it's me interacting with another human I have not written it down So that's the way to know if it's in the teleprompter Like for instance your interview with Cassidy Hutchison the other day was incredibly certainly prepared for that you had you had Questions that were very specific that we all really wanted to hear the answers on and she was incredible Yeah, I mean book interviews are are great But it's I mean it's it's got I mean I mean I'm only interested in talking to people about a book if I'm interested in the book And so I've always read the book and so but once you've read the book You don't have to do that much other preparation as long as you grok it and you understand what's going to explain the guys What a book is yeah neither of them reads ever For one inner learning just stunning You know how stuff gets stapled together you move the staple to the long side of the paper And it's left to right top to bottom right in TV terms just put it in like a television program imagine a television program But all the dialogue was how else would crunch into You cards you can hold you know what? I was saying is that the ability to like when if something goes wrong or the satellite didn't connect start we can't get them And you just fill the space right away by the way I will say and Rachel's just so you don't have to be too embarrassed about why you are so smart I will say that part of the thing is that because I imagine someone like Rachel is so well read that she's able to talk on many Different so all times because she has points of reference right other than you know the golden bachelor you guys so I know neither can I never watch any of the bachelor's I never I want to watch that one What does it take to be golden hell is he's 72 you know they had the gold in bachelor once in German But that was different it was a different show so here we go I've been there sure no, but Rachel you do you have said and when I say that I'm talking about my research on Wikipedia That you think you're you have an obligation to since you have a light on the camera That you need to have something to say when that like comes on and you're very responsible making sure that you're prepared and you You're brilliant at doing that at doing that a block where you are giving us some story We have no idea what the hell you're talking about for a few minutes in the best way and then you land the plane and contextualize what this story History yeah was as it pertains to something that's going on today Yeah, and it's it's just thank you for that you hold me and every night or once once a week now It's you know That's the way that I learn if something's going on that I think is interesting or important I want to be able to say why it's interesting or why it's important and usually that involves some sort of origin story or some sort of Historical analog or something like that and so that's that's usually where those stories come from But when it comes to just having something to say it's just I really firmly believe in reading widely not only reading about the thing You're supposedly researching just a lot right yeah I think I think you know I'm ritual tell me if you if this rings true for you at all If something like you you went to Stanford your Rhodes Scholar you're really well-educated you obviously can you know speak to a number of different You know sort of big issues It used to be a time when somebody like you came along and was so well-informed and was so smart and able to you know really deal with a lot of complex issues At one time and blah blah blah they would maybe turn all their talents to the public sector They would try to in a way to you know to serve you know in government Etc. Now partially that and it's just really a result of where we are as a society the highest calling almost is is entertainment and celebrity But also but within that you get to kind of have your cake and eat it too because you get to go do that But in a way you get to serve the public by as Jason said helping people understand what's going on So you kind of get to do both you see it in that way that you're that you're Again, I don't want you know say that you're doing some great thing for the greater good in it You know but you kind of are of course nice of you to think of it that way I mean I am I definitely feel like my job is trying to understand things myself so that I can explain them for a lot of people And so that is a very satisfying job particularly at a time when things I think the news feels overwhelming or devastating to lots of people to have it be your job the thing you get paid to do to Be to try to understand it and explain it in a way that makes sense. That's real That's it's a it's a very therapeutic thing But in terms of what I'm like trying to do in the world I was an activist before I got involved in the media And I definitely see a real a hard dividing line between those two things like I spent a long time trying to get people to do things Trying to get policies to change trying to advocate for specific people in trouble or whatever it was and I stopped doing advocacy There's no money in the world.
No money in the UK Well as Jason said I get it. But talk more about that Rachel because that's a that's was it I would imagine it was it would be difficult to turn that switch off of advocacy With the endgame being actual change and results whereas now you're you're probably able to say much more which with much more specificity Deeper reach much more research, but you need to be a little more I guess indifferent to whether the results are going to come because you're presenting information and Potentially hoping that people react to it and change their patterns from it But you but but you're there's no follow up to that, you know like there is in the other work you were doing perhaps Yeah, it's it's interesting like I I really feel like what I'm doing now has a bigger impact But I have to have less ego about what it is Because I'm not like trying to change one poll like I used to work for the ACLU National Prison Project And I was in the same day In the exact of his sort of hey day and we were always trying to get a thing done And I feel like I know how to do that and I was pretty good at it But I was sort of average good at it There's a lot of other people doing it that were better than me But with what I'm doing now, I feel like hopefully by creating more Understanding by making what's important about the news and current events really playing to people it makes it possible for people to make their own decisions about Either you know just participating or doing activism. Yeah, we'll be right back and now back to the show So Rachel, you your latest book prequel is is a bit of a cautionary tale yet that yes that that is applicable to what we're talking about right here that in fact America went through this At least once before right around World War two is is this story that you've uncovered correct and yeah I mean it's basically I think it's a positive story because there was all these Americans who fought against it But there was this really big fight in the lead up to World War two in this country against the fascist movement in this country That in a lot of cases was actually working with Nazi Germany to try to set up a similar form of government here And we had paramilitary groups and we had a Nazi agent working with lots of members of Congress on a big property I know seemingly a very big movement that had quite a bit of support and you know There's lots of documentation to that. Yeah, the most famous industrialist in the country Henry Ford was part of it the biggest national hero at the time Charles Lindberg I'm watching this watching last night.
It's called the United States and all the cost Oh, yeah, that's ten burns. Yes, it's fascinating He has a lot on Charles Kuglin and Lindberg. Yes, so Koglin was the biggest media figure we've ever had in America And he was a self-described fascist and a rabid anti-Semite and he set up armed militia groups around the country among his followers Oh, was there was there was there a was there a remedy that came from this that we could perhaps learn from to Offset what we're dealing with dude. We tried I mean I don't know if you've seen but there's been other people who come in and take over the media and they're not necessarily American Oh, yeah, right and it's like like you were saying we keep making the same fucking mistake What is what's the change?
What is the change that needs to happen? Yeah? How did they get through it then that maybe we could kind of draft off now? Yeah, that's why I wrote the book is that I actually think there's a bunch of like lessons learned things to you know Post it notes things to remember for 80 years from now when this comes around again I mean obviously the Nazis are there's nobody like the Nazis.
That's not the analogy. The analogy is a domestic that was their slogan Where's you've ever met? Is there is there is there one thing that we should focus on to maybe inoculate ourselves from a possible future or or other many small things it's it's that there can't just be one thing and so there It's just everything has to happen at once so there has to be when it's crimes when there's violence there has to be prosecution like the criminal justice system has a role And it's really important to protect them from being intimidated the risk of violence that I was talking about in the 1944 Sedition trial which I read about in the book the attorney general was actually pressured by a senator who was implicated in the plot It was pressured by that senator into firing the prosecutor in that case like it worked Like that's terrible We have to make sure the justice department and the legal system is protected from intimidation But then it's also you know activism people infiltrating these groups good journalism about it. You need like the military to court martial people you need The bar associations and and churches to police their ranks when the Catholic churches who shut down for all the coglin and had they not he'd still be preaching You know anti-Semitism all through world where to so you're saying that we could live in a world where a president could be could escape Punishment because potentially like the southern district of New York would refuse to I mean, I'm just look I'm trying to I'm dealing In hypothetical well, well, maybe what might be even more apt the another book that you wrote back man correct me if I'm wrong is The spear agnew that there was a deal offered him that may or may not potentially be a precedent for What could shape the possible conclusion of any sort of Trump sentencing?
Well, what happened with Agnew is that they hit him with a 40 count federal indictment Which sounded amazing at the time and now we're up in the now we're up in the 90 something Federal indictment and so he sounds like a piker, but yeah They were hitting without felony indictment and he so didn't want to go to jail that his very able lawyers negotiated a deal where he plead No, he plead effectively no contest to one felony and he would avoid jail time But the penalty was that he had to resign from office and agree never to go into politics again, correct? You know, I asked the prosecutors who were involved in that if that was if that was a contingency if they said you can never run again And they said we never thought that we would ever have to put that in writing because who would ever think of voting for somebody? He'd been charged with Well, it wasn't this right at the moment where they were pretty sure Nixon was either going to resign or be impeached and that's and that Spirit, I do with all of these what was a tax fraud or something like that The possibility was strong that he could end up in jail as a result of that prosecution But then be appointed president because Nixon was on his way and they didn't want a president to be incarcerated Yes It would just be a nightmare so they offered him this deal Am I getting any idea that you can't bring a prosecution against a sitting president president? That whole idea really was crystallized and formalized at the Justice Department around Nixon and Agnew because The Attorney General at the time Elliot Richardson is one of the people who was getting like middle of the night drunken phone calls from Nixon Ranting and raving and seeming like a crazy person you know Attorney General thought he was gonna die And that that that Agnew was gonna be elevated and it was toxic But it was also you know bribery and extortion and all these other corruption crimes and they thought my god We've got to figure out a way to get him out of there But there's also nothing they probably never imagined at Rachel because there was a thing back then that people had that was called shame They just turned point and now we're the Yeah, yeah, where they'd say they'd be like even a guy like there and he's like I can't do that that's indecent you know at the highest level I don't know a bunch of other shit but doing that now it doesn't matter all of that is out the window because of you know Yeah, my guess is that you know, you know, it's such a dumb dumb question to all of this is like why do people go into politics?
I don't understand the second you the second you get elected you got a target on your back And everything and then they're involved in everything we're talking about where I'm gonna get you I'm gonna see you and it's just it seems like an endless Game of that. I mean you can do good stuff in politics I mean government can do good things but a lot of people go into politics because they want power and they want You know, it's certainly not for the money, right? Doesn't an average senator make far far less probably a tenth of what they can make in the private sector being a lawyer Mostly senators would be the top lawyer in their district, so they're taking a big pay cut So it must just although they all seem to do very well after they leave off Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, I'm seeing a poor ex-senator.
Yeah, what do they call a banana? They got a bold bar bobby? Now all right, well Rachel, let's let's let's let's go back Let's go back to the to the to the volleyball and basketball days And and getting sort of the now your your father was Air Force. I believe in your mom was in education So yeah, yeah, okay, so then she worked at the middle school, okay?
But there was clearly there was that that great sort of cocktail of those two things at the dinner table for you to start get Interested in those worlds. Yes, and and did politics was it an early passion or do you find it? No, not at all It's interesting. I didn't we weren't like a kid's book kind of family We didn't have that that wasn't the vibe like my mom is from grew up on a farm very poor in northeastern Canada My dad was the first person in his family Your mom's Canadian here we go.
She's from Newfoundland. She's from Newfoundland. Yes. Oh there by I'm gonna say you I'm Canadian from Trump We're gonna say hi to all their new for land there by either.
Hey, okay Yeah, no way Big family lots of sisters who are nuns She didn't want to be a nun didn't want to be a nurse afraid of the sight of blood and didn't want to be a teacher didn't much like children So she left came to the United States ended up meeting my dad when he was in the Air Force But yeah, I like sort of grew up reading the newspaper and sort of like more interested in news But then by the time I was sort of figuring out who I was in my teenage years I was it was like the real height of the AIDS crisis and I was coming out as gay and I was growing up in the San Francisco area And so I kind of just like got really swept up in AIDS activism really early on Did you guys talk about current events and stuff at the dinner table? Are you that kind of family where you talked about what was going on? No, not really much really like that now I mean was I great I mean my parents are fantastic or my favorite people in the world Oh, but it just wasn't that kind of a vibe like I think they were as surprised as I was I also didn't start doing anything in the news media until after I was almost done with my graduate degree I just was on a totally different plane I my first news job was I was I didn't open on air audition to be the news girl on the morning zoo radio show Growing up in no way no way Rachel Maddow on the morning News girl was my title With the weasel and what do you? Wait, Shawn your dad was in the air for it, right?
Yeah Yeah, that's why I thought that right Rachel What drew you to like want to even do that what would you do to be like? Oh my god? I want to be I want to try that zoo news girl news review It was a dare I was staying with friends News I was staying with friends and I was doing odd jobs and I was terrible at all of them I was doing deliveries, but I had a car with an electrical problem So every unless I could leave my car running and it would not stall out I could I needed a jump every time I got to go to a park on a hill pop and I I was I worked at it my friends had a coffee roasting company And I like installed some plumbing backwards in their plant and made a faucet blow up And I just had a lot of really bad jobs It's my friend so I was saying with said oh this morning show We listen to they're doing this audition and I auditioned live on the air and I got hired and on the spot and started the next day And I just loved it from the reading associated press like rip and read top of the hour news copy I'm just gonna get enough. Yeah, that's cool.
Amazing, but then I'm gonna jump way forward then now flashing forward You find yourself as a panelist on Tucker Carlson show on MSNBC and how I don't remember him on MSC You came on my radar when I was because I was a big big still I'm an overman fan You were you were you were on there often and but what was it was Tucker the same Tucker back then or was he on the left? No, he wasn't on the left. I mean Keith is what Keith is what made MSNBC liberal right? He showed he did great.
He sort of came out as a liberal did a great job He's incredible broadcasting talent and he with especially the special comments kind of created cut the path through the jungle in terms of making MSNBC have kind of a liberal identity before that it really didn't and so Tucker doing the late night show on MSNBC it was like MSNBC was just politics. It wasn't any one lane in politics I think it was I think it might have been his immediate post bow tie job Yeah, I don't think it was I think it was post bow tie. Yeah, that's the delineation I think that he became the Tucker that we all ended up knowing when he realized how well it paid to be that guy and I know That's a cynical thing, but I truly believe that I don't know the guy at all, but I'm really good at judging people harshly Talk about Elon Musk I will say let me ask you when it comes to Tucker That's good Hey, I'm Bill Riley must be doing something but thank God that Keith came along and and exposed us all to you and was such a big advocate for you and you had to so you ended up being on a key show quite a bit and then and then I guess hosting for him quite a bit and enjoying it and him enjoying you and MSNBC enjoying you and then your show took off Yes, yeah, so that it was interesting one of the things that Keith did for me was he said you should use my agent And I never do that I taught my agent from representing anybody who I compete against but you should use my agent Which was a very generous thing and now she's fantastic I name is Jean Sage She was my agent forever and ever and ever and Jean convinced the president of MSNBC Phil Griffin to hire me and the fact that I had Done so well and perceived to have done well on Keith's show I think was absolutely the on ramp there, but then I started at nine o'clock right after the 2008 or right at the 2008 election and then that's what I've been doing ever since only recently did I scaled back from five days to one day But this is we just turned 15. Yeah, that's awesome.
Congratulations. We're great. Yeah, and but now you're leaving yourself open to pursue all the many other things that you're doing with the writing and the podcasting and Etc and also finding time to live a life and fish with season right and what do you guys do you guys do something? Yeah, you're comfortable telling us that it just dumbs it all down I mean are you are you waiting with me to breath with a golden bachelor or crap like that?
I say with all respect we are such What do you guys do to dumb it down we are are you familiar with the great British baking show? Yes, of course, yes I think it's the greatest television show ever made but I also haven't watched much television So I don't know it's my it's my perfect drug It's my perfect does it get you then to the kitchen to try your your talents at the same stuff. Oh, no, I can only make drinks You read a book while you're watching TV. What's your favorite drink if someone's gonna bring you a bottle of something as a gift?
You're coming over to Rachel's house for dinner. What do they want to ring you? Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of an I don't drink vodka, but other than that I'm pretty good. I'm pretty I'm pretty equal opportunity But you know, I also feel like a vodka story was at what point was someone holding your hair after?
No, I just like it. It tastes like a cleaning product to me. You know how I have that with cilantro Vodka has no flavor. I'm like it does and it tastes like you should be it's under the rim It's funny I have this image of you and your partner Susan because my our friend Eli's a friend of all of ours He's always say we watch you and when we were in Atlanta, whatever He's like I just want to go to Rachel's house and have coffee in the morning and have her just just talk me through everything That's going on and just make me feel okay.
Yeah, I break everything down because there's so much information I just want to sit on her porch. I go yeah, I don't think that's gonna happen buddy, but also that's not what coffee with me is like It's a pretty nonverbal experience until I'm in the cup too You know you know what you know I find interesting What I really enjoy is watching you when you do when you're on TV and you're talking about a subject your cadence is second to none Because it's often quite broken up and you take pauses that I what I've sort of gleaned it from your pauses that you're you're thinking which is extraordinary Well, yeah Suggesting that there's no problem for whatever subject that is that you're you know kind of using on and that we live in a world Where people are so quick to have an answer? It's not just about being right about how quick you can be right and and it's so odd and I think it's so powerful to take a moment When you're talking about something to really you know think about it before you It's kind of the thing when people say when we had Biden on last year on our podcast the right president Biden And people say you know what? What was he like?
I said, you know what? He's a really thoughtful guy And yes, he's a little bit. He's older than we are however I do like the idea of somebody who's in that position Taking a minute to think about it when presented with a problem and that is something that is really undervalued And I think I see you do it in real time and I find it very interesting. It's very powerful, right?
Yeah, very well said I mean, I think it's important not to flag through stuff that you don't know if you don't know it's okay like it better Don't make it up. It's okay. We can find somebody else who does have the answer if you don't Yeah, but it's even if you're being asked your opinion on something I think there isn't value to just like singing it out in the right tempo You have to there's just to be a reason that you're there It has to be a reason that you're worthy of being asked and worthy of the attention It's why I don't put on I never on my shows. I never put on people to fight Yeah, and if somebody lies on the show, I don't invite them back that I feel like I'm offering my audience a chance to hear from somebody Because I think they have something valuable to say all right.
I'll do it Enhance We'll be right back all right back to the show Wait, right So do you think because and then we want to get back more to you But do you think now is the time more than ever in a long time for an independent to win next year because it doesn't seem like what I'm feeling is People aren't excited about either side I'm excited about one side, but a lot of the people seem like they're not excited about either side I thought well gosh What a perfect storm for somebody to break through right in the middle and run as an independent we really have a de facto two-party democracy Though and so trying to bring about independent candidacy at a practical level All you're doing is deciding which of the two parties you want to have that proportion of the vote shaved off of So if you bring on an independent who's gonna appeal to democratic candidates You're just making it more likely that president Biden will lose And if you bring on a independent candidate who's more attractive to Republicans, that's you're making it more likely that probably Trump will lose So it's it's it's it ends up in real politic just being that and we can reimagine the American political system using instant-run-off voting And other things that are now being tried in some states so that there isn't that spoiler effect But right now while it exists the only purpose of an independent candidate is to take votes away from the major party candidate who they're most likely Well, will there ever be a world in this country where they will blow up the electoral college net system? Will that ever happen? Maybe I mean there's all sorts of counter-majoritarian things like things in our system that where the majority votes for a thing But they still don't get it that are starting to be really I think over exploited by people who want different types of minority rule So that's gerrymandering. That's the electoral college.
That's other forms of abuse of the legislative system The ways Congress are changing Republicans, broadly speaking, are using them in ways that are against voting at a very level You know, like a Democrats elected governor of North Carolina and so the Republicans in the North Carolina legislature take away all the powers that the governor has Yeah, eventually that kind of stuff reaches its limit if we're gonna be a democracy and not a country where you rule by force Then people are gonna have to stand up for democracy and that might mean the counter-majoritarian stuff like the Electoral College is gonna get some pressure And we're now seeing how vitally important it is to maintain control of the Supreme Court and what happens when you don't Yeah, and you know using Underhanded and duplicitous and hypocritical tactics to get your majority on the Supreme Court pays off for the life of the justices That's a bad precedent to set because you've now set the bar that any means necessary for getting a justice under the court is Effectively justified by the republicans, right? And we're not talking about necessarily by the way It should be noted to our listeners to our listeners who were put off by us talking in this way We're not we're not saying that that having a conservative judges is bad I'm really not suggesting it if it's done within the framework of what is fair then that's fine What we're talking about is rigging the system To you know affect the outcome and when you do that that is not fair that is not a democracy working at its best It's functioning at its best and you should also be opposed to that because we're to work against you You'd feel very undermined and you'd feel very cheap and you'd feel like this is unfortunate It seems like we're having to start to start to sort of workshop and brainstorm What else we can do now that fair is is becoming less and less common in the political space And do we take the bait and start playing by their rules and thus sacrificing our own values and ethics? Or do we continue on the high road and get comfortable with the losses? You know, I just I'm not sure what the future is gonna hold for that I feel like the lesson of history here is to have like one load star which is protect democracy And that means make sure that everybody knows and everybody believes and we reify every way We can but the way we solve problems in this country is through a democratic process Yeah, and anything that is about to you know What we'll say about that you know the fair process of which justice is end up on the Supreme Court if you vote for a conservative President part of what you are voting for is if there is a vacancy on the Supreme Court while that president is office that president will appoint a conservative Court or Conversely with a liberal voting for a liberal president.
It is with the understanding that if there's a vacancy They'll be a liberal appointee and that system gets broken You are separating outcomes from the vote and you are making people feel like the vote doesn't matter And in fact you are making it so their vote doesn't matter Which means our democracy is getting weaker whatever whoever wins or loses any particular fight the connection between people's desire and the outcomes They get from their government should always be the load star because that's the thing that's under assault from people who want authoritarianism And rule by force instead of rule by vote. That's right and so to that Can you I hate for you to make a prediction, but what do you think is the life? We could be the lifespan of Travis Kelsey Taylor Swift is To the playoffs right? Really it's a very large man.
He's a very large target. There's a lot of ways to make it Yeah, you're good to avoid an answer on that one now Rachel I'm sure that there's a team of incredibly gifted people that you get to work with every day Or maybe not every day now for your show, but yeah What is your favorite part? I want to ask you to take us through your entire day because I'm sure it's it's a lot But is there a favorite part of the day? That is potentially completely imploded when there's some breaking news and you got to toss it all out Yeah, what's your favorite part of that collaborate part of the reason that I left doing five days a week and went one day A week is that I felt like my my thoughts were getting shorter I was starting to think and short thoughts without law I wanted to think book-length thoughts instead of tweet link And so I've now in how that I have this new schedule I'm spending a lot of time and I'm working on a lot of projects that involve me reading a lot of books And so I'm often kind of I look like I'm gonna get smothered by a collapsing pile of you know Books about Nazis at any time of the day But to have to like dig myself out of my home library where I'm dug into you know something going on in the 1920s in Mexico And then have to jump into like wait the bankruptcy court judge said what about Trump Soho?
Can be a little weird. Yeah, so you must have an incredible team of researchers that can keep you up to date and or answer questions When you have them about where the legal ramifications of x y or z? I mean, it's probably never ending well MSNBC made a good decision. I mean in the Trump era everybody in the news had to become like a jailhouse lawyer Like we all had to learn We all became medical experts through the pandemic.
Yes, exactly We all developed or that's expertise But the MSNBC did a really good thing and they hired a bunch of lawyers both as on-air Correspondents but also as off-air consultants to help us process and understand and be correct about analyzing You know not used to be just Supreme Court decisions You'd have to deal with or an occasional like true crime thing that captured people's attention now It's the president in Potentially going to jail in four different jurisdictions You need to know you need to know a lot more with a lot more specificity. You might you might you might enjoy this This is a little bit of a tangent. We've always got it about six months ago It was in Atlanta with Eli and we got an argument at breakfast over there at the okay cafe Which is a terrific time featuring you and Eli and argument is like yeah, and our buddy Bob And we were sitting there and I said I made I made the point that was shopping out there No, no, no, he was not there. He was in field.
We're in club And I brought the point that ignorance of the law is never a defense as you might know Rachel You know that probably and it's just not Eli and I got my back and forth So I end up calling Jeff who's I work with his also an attorney. He agreed with me I said well, I don't think he really knows a like you like you like from Halifax So then we call my dad who's retired for many years. I'm actually really yeah, you're right It's not ever a defense and etc. You like you believe me so we open a time you like went to the bathroom Bob goes on What's that um cameo sure?
Oh god, and he we finds out that for a hundred dollars We can get Alan Dershowitz to do a cameo. So we put in the message Hey, everybody just graduating from from law school Kind of an inside joke tell everybody Eli about whether or not ignorance of the law is a defense and Alan Dershowitz does this fucking cameo Within 20 minutes that we sent to Eli By the way, he did it from his home within 20 we're in that we're still in the argument He gets an email from Alan Dershowitz Fucking great as that. So what did Alan say in the cameo? He said, you know, I was just getting a massage And anybody really said it's never you know ignorance of the law is never a defense Whether or not you're underpants whether or not you're underpants.
How fucking great is that? Anyway, it's cameo more for inside like I know settling inside jokes and arguments. How good is that idea? I got one once from the guy from insane clown posse Oh, really?
That was really good It was great It was thanking me for having done a thing for a pal but it was just this magnificent font of like every iteration of the f-word I had ever heard you every other possible like it was like it was Me and you did not have a beef with any of the juggaloos right that's where followers I'm pro juggalo Is that true? Yeah, oh yeah, I think you know what it means to be anti juggalo that don't say really don't say it Rachel when you're home in your pile of books reading stuff is is it something you ensues in chat about like you guys like? Susan like hi honey What book did you read today or is it something you completely do by yourself? And she does this all by yourself and then you meet for dinner at the end and you talk about the day But you don't talk about your books pretty much the latter Yeah, I mean what I do is just a horrible thing is that will be out like in the woods on a dog walk or something I'll go hey Do you want a Nazi story?
No, no, no burning a hole in my pocket. Wait, can I tell you please like she'll occasionally indulge me But I cannot overstate the importance of having a partner who does not value your work. Yeah, I think it's really important She likes me, but she doesn't care Jason's well aware Yeah, exactly my daughters. They don't give it up either.
They're like it could not be less interested like Jerry good for you It's a very good day. Yeah, the other day. I was with Jason and his one of his daughters So I absolutely love and and I said Jason's like wait What did you say I'm like Jason I texted that to you like a week ago and he goes and I never responded and I go no And his daughter turns to me she goes that's like he never responds to me. Oh, I'm just The ones that are important get the risk times T times you've got you ever wanted to get a response I just go how's next Thursday at 10 look for you to tee off and then he'll answer you and then you've got them And then you say the real thing to stay occupied during a strike, you know, I'm trying to keep the brain fresh No, no dinner when I was out of town.
Is that it still happened dinner happen? Oh, sure. Yeah, life does keep going Fuck man. It's shocking.
Yeah, um Rachel. We love you. We can not be enough such an honor No, you're so cool Having me you guys are really awesome and I'm very I have to say just briefly little earnestness There's a lot of crappy podcasts that have a lot of listens in the world and it makes me happy and heartened that you guys Are so successful with this because you guys are nice and interesting and kind and that is not usually what sells in this world And you guys are doing your success in this world makes me happy. Oh, thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you You've done so much for so many people and I think you're doing I think you're doing a great service to the world So, thank you. Yeah, rest up.
You've got a busy year ahead of you Thank you for spending a little time with us. Yeah, and one of these days I'm gonna stop you in New York And then we're gonna have a proper meal just have the band pull over E3 cloth you just put it right off my nose and bring in the band. Everybody else does it Thank you so much. Thank you.
Bye. Bye. Bye Wow, JB. Well, that was yeah, I don't think that's the first time I pit started sweating before we started the podcast Yeah, I was like nervous too, but you don't even know who it was.
No, but you came on. I was nervous. Oh, yeah I was all starship. That is so fucking smart.
It's so scared to ask anything that you're gonna sound like a dumb shit Well, but I mean that's I think you know Rachel Madel for that. Well, we have a title of the podcast to cover all that You know, we're not claiming to be investigative journalists. No, it's on MSNBC. Okay, but I was I'm so glad the way that that went because I was I I knew that obviously it's it's kind of baked in that it's gonna be political and we try not to be overly political on the show But so it was nice to have a conversation with somebody who is so political to have it not be you know kind of burn it all down Well, not just political but also really fucking smart.
Yeah, it's not Left versus right and right versus left. It's really more about everybody's a hell of a thing Yeah, it's just about like let's let's cracking it open people crack it open and shed light on it and go This is actually not the way this is this is not actually quite fair. Let's look at it and be honest about it. That's it.
That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah And she does make the medicine go down real easy too I just love the way she shapes stories and and points of view and she just she helps my brain get a little bit calmer Based on the way that she's able to articulate some of the stuff that's going on and maybe some of the things we might need to watch How much you watch every night or when she's on yeah, but I'm watching Nicole Wallace and Chris Hayes and I know how much How much more do you think that you could get from it if you had less gummy? I'm trying to Combo there that trying to get right mix. Well, I'm not able to really comprehend a lot of what I'm listening to we're looking at so It needs to be a tonnage what information you're coming high as but Jesus It's not true listener.
He's really taking a run. I took one on Sunday. It was delicious and it was amazing Did you have one I had one on Sunday with Jay not Jason didn't have one I had one yeah, right? Yeah, no, I watched yeah You watched me you watch me so you guys did have dinner on Sunday without me.
Yes Oh, yeah, yeah, and we do it again too next time you want to go out of town and not be with us Yeah, but you know what like your point will go here. I go fuck me. I know Everybody it doesn't matter like It's better where you are left or right. We all have to get along we ought to let bygones be Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Rob Armstrong Bennett barbequo and Michael Gran Terri