Racism Through History (Get A PhD in Racism)

In this episode of Based Camp, Simone and Malcolm Collins dive deep into the forbidden history of group-based stereotypes and cultural pattern recognition from ancient Egypt through Renaissance Europe. This is the dark lore mainstream education won’t touch — what Egyptians really thought of Nubians and Libyans, Greek views of “effete” Persians and rowdy Macedonians, Roman donkey-god graffiti mocking Jews and Christians, medieval antisemitic pig-suckling art that makes modern versions look tame, and the surprising origins of the “French Vice,” “Italian Vice,” and “English Vice.”The Collinses explore how what we now call racism was once just observed averages, patterns, and tribal jokes — not modern ideological sin. No moralizing. Just raw historical context on how humans have always categorized “us vs. them.”Show NotesWith the release of Talkie, a 13M “vintage” language model trained only on pre-1931 text, people realized just how casual, widespread, and matter-of-fact prejudice was in even the recent past.Ancient EgyptDifferent groups were absolutely depicted, mostly with Egyptians being reddish, nubians being black, Asiatics being tan (and often bearded), and Libyans being white (and often bearded)Nubians as people to conqueredTexts and artistic programs from pharaonic Egypt sometimes emphasize Nubia as a land to be subdued and exploited, supporting a stereotype of Nubians as “barbaric” or less civilized compared to Egypt.* See:Critique of the “Black Pharaohs” Theme: Racist Perspectives of Egyptian and Kushite/Nubian Interactions in Popular Media https://www.jstor.org/stable/48763823Canaanites/Asiatics as rebellious and treacherous* Egyptian sources portray peoples to the northeast of the nile (“Asiatics,” including Levantine groups) as culturally suspect, often linked to rebellion, disorder, and treachery* They were also, however, viewed as trading partners and skilled craftsmen* TL:DR: They threatened social order* Egyptian royal narratives from the later 17th–16th centuries BCE describe the Hyksos (“Shepherd Kings”) as foreign usurpers who disrupted proper Egyptian order.* After the Theban kings of the 18th Dynasty expelled them around 1550 BCE, Egyptian texts portray this expulsion as the restoration of Ma’at (cosmic order), implicitly stereotyping Asiatic rule as chaotic, illegitimate, and oppressive* In New Kingdom imperial inscriptions, Canaanite city‑states are often framed as unreliable vassals—prone to rebellion, needing punishment, and subject to heavy tribute and forced labor conscriptionLibyans: Western barbarians turned useful soldiers and even rulers* In Egyptian sources, Libyans were stereotyped both as dangerous, warlike “western barbarians” and, over time, as useful soldiers and eventually fully Egyptianized rulers; the view shifted from hostile outsider to complex “cousin” status as Libyan groups migrated into the Delta and took power.* Sometimes they traded; sometimes they fought* “The Libu were first mentioned in New Kingdom (c. 1550-1069 BCE) texts and were often the Libyan archetype depicted in Egyptian art. Libu tribesmen were depicted with their hair cut at the nape, a sidelock, and often tattooed. All Libyan tribes were shown with light complexions and Caucasian features.” (The Collector, citing “The Meshwesh”)* They had tattoos and sidelocks and interesting haircuts* “Eventually, massive migration brought the Libyans into Egypt’s Delta during the New Kingdom, forever changing the political landscape of the Nile Valley.” (The Collector)Ancient GreeceGreeks commonly divided the world into Hellenes (Greek speakers) and “barbarians” (non‑Greek speakers), treating Greek culture as inherently superior.Persians as decadent and effete* Persians especially were portrayed as decadent, soft, and naturally suited to monarchy rather than free citizenship* Their art of Darius the Great certainly makes him look fancyAthenians: Cultural elites* Athenians were stereotyped—especially in Athenian sources—as philosophical, talkative, artistic, and politically engaged, the center of culture and debate.Spartans: Disciplined warriors* Sparta practiced xenelasia, the expulsion or strict control of foreigners, driven by fears that outsiders might spy on Sparta or corrupt its harsh, militarized way of life.* This created a stereotype of Spartans as intensely closed, suspicious of outsiders, and committed to preserving a rigid ethos that rejected luxury, commerce, and cosmopolitan influences* Spartan woman were also definitely seen differently than Athenian women (who were largely meant to be unseen), what with their athleticism, property ownership, etc.* Art of a Spartan woman running:Ionian Greeks: Cowards* Ionian Greeks of Asia Minor (e.g., coastal cities under Persian rule) were stereotyped as cowardly and weak fighters, “softened” by their mild climate and prosperity, and as good talkers but poor warriors.Boitians: Hicks* Boiotians, especially Thebans, were mocked as brutish country hicks—agricultural, uncultured, and un‑cosmopolitan—later also stereotyped as big, strong wrestlers rather than subtle thinkers.Ancient RomeChristians* Alexamenos worships [his] god” graffiti* The artist is referring to a well‑known slur that Jews and then Christians worshipped a donkey—an accusation called onolatry—and used the donkey head to mock Christ and Alexamenos as absurd, foolish worshippers* At first, Christians were seen as just another Jewish subgroup* Their devotion to a crucified man and claims about one true god were seen as peculiar but not uniquely threatening compared to other mystery cults and foreign religions.Jews: Stubborn cliquey weirdos* Jews were portrayed as stubborn subjects with a herd mentality, fiercely attached to unique customs such as circumcision and dietary laws.* Romans satirized Jews as gullible religious fanatics and puzzled over their attitudes toward pigs, sometimes imagining them as pig‑worshippers or pig‑haters, while also fearing that Romans themselves might be seduced into Jewish practices.All outsiders: Barbarian* Romans tended to divide the world into Roman and non‑Roman, with non‑Romans often lumped as “barbari” and assumed to be less civilized, less disciplined, and less politically sophisticated.* Foreigners could be mocked for accents, dress, food, and religious practices, and were frequently portrayed as either dangerously cunning or naïvely simple.* At the same time, Roman writers sometimes romanticized “barbarians” as noble savages, using them rhetorically to critique decadence and corruption inside Rome itself.Greeks: Admirable and contemptible* The good: The source of philosophy, art, and literature* The bad: Talkative, tricky, morally weak, effeminate, prone to luxury, unreliable in war (basically, brainy but soft)Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Syrians (people from the levant): Sleazy merchants* Stereotyped as sleazy merchants obsessed with money and pleasure* The phrase “fides Punica” (“Phoenician honesty”) became proverbial for deceit, and Carthaginians were especially cast as treacherous, cruel enemies whose sophistication made them dangerous.* Syrians and other easterners were depicted as lazy bon‑vivants living in over‑civilized cities, spending their time in baths and banquets instead of honest work or soldiering.* Roman elites worried that exposure to such cultures would “soften” Romans, so Levantine peoples embodied a stereotype of corrupting luxury and dishonesty.Egyptians: Ancient and sinister* Romans were fascinated and disturbed by their religious rituals and animal cults* Roman writers framed Egypt as a land of magic, superstition, and arrogant priests, and resented Roman dependence on Egyptian grain, which led to a stereotype of Egyptians as arrogant and entitledPersians / Parthians: Formidable enemies* Persians and later Parthians were stereotyped as the archetypal eastern enemy: militarily formidable but ruled by cruel, tyrannical monarchs.* Romans cast Persia as the mirror image of Rome—an empire of disciplined warriors, but with an inferior, despotic political system and excessive royal luxury.Gauls: Noble savages* Gauls were initially seen as hotheaded, brave, “noble savages”: valiant in battle but impetuous, simple, and prone to rashness.* After Gaul became more integrated into the empire, Romans began to stereotype Gauls as softening under luxury and Romanization, while still recognizing them as good orators and sometimes resenting “new money” Gaulish elites.Germans: An even more savage version of gauls* Germans were like Gauls but even more “savage”: unconquered, closely tied to nature, living beyond the edges of civilization.* Roman authors alternated between romanticizing Germans as free, hardy warriors and dehumanizing them as wild beasts, a frontier people to be crushed or contained.Medieval EuropeIrish, Welsh, Slavs, and Baltic People: Barbarians; barely Christian* Anglo‑Norman writers in England and those living in what’s now German routinely depicted nearby frontier peoples (Irish, Welsh, Slavs, Baltic pagans) as barely Christian barbarians.* They were stereotyped as violent pastoralists, pirates, or plunderers, resistant to law and agriculture, and needing conquest and missionary work to climb the “rungs of civilization.”* People used these stereotypes to justify English expansion into Ireland and Wales and German colonization in the Baltic north.* Frontier groups were therefore clearly framed as savage, lawless, and religiously deficient compared to the “civilized” core.* We can kind of see how people viewed pastoral peasants in three engravings representing peasants made by Albrecht Dürer between the years 1514 and 1519 (Renaissance, but still the gist)Scots: Militant poor people* Viewed as militarily dangerous but less wealthy and “civilized” than England or France, with a rugged land and smaller, poorer towns.* Persistent enemies who defended their independence fiercely; chronicles focus on war—Stirling Bridge, Bannockburn—and portray Scots as stubborn and warlike.Jews: Kind of a different species?* Lots of art of Jews + pigs; Jews not really being human* E.g. there’s this one sculpture on a church in Wittenburg, where Martin Luther once preached, that people tried to have taken down, though the city decided to leave it up* Jews were increasingly stereotyped as melancholic, greedy, and spiritually obstinate; from the 13th century medical writers even speculated about distinctive Jewish bodily traits (e.g., hemorrhoidal or monthly bleeding), embodying difference as quasi‑hereditary.* This fed wider notions that Jews were “fixed” outsiders, difficult or impossible to integrate into the Christian “New Israel,” and associated them with usury and corruption of the body politic.Most graffiti isn’t really showing biases; it’s just funny looking and it makes me laughRenaissance EuropeThe “[country] Vice” concept emergedFrench vice: Sexual looseness and maturity* Observers of the French royal court in the 16th–17th centuries, especially around figures like Catherine de Medici and later the Bourbon monarchs, portrayed it as a place of intrigue, mistresses, and elaborate sexual politics.* Anti‑French polemic and gossip emphasized alleged harems of ladies‑in‑waiting used to seduce nobles, and more generally depicted French court women as sexually manipulative, feeding foreign ideas that France was unusually decadent.* By the 17th century, narratives of French “debauchery” were circulating across Europe, presenting the French court as a laboratory of outrageous erotic tastes compared with more “sober” courts in places like England.* French literature made it worse* The rise of an international publishing industry around the mid‑1600s helped spread erotic and semi‑pornographic French literature across borders, giving other Europeans a steady diet of stories featuring libertine characters and sophisticated sexual intrigue.* Pamela Cheek and others note that “dirty books” and French self‑promotion were central to cementing the “French lover” stereotype, with print culture exporting an image of France as sexually adventurous.Italian Vice: Same-sex relationships* From the later Middle Ages onward, outsiders associated certain Italian cities, above all Florence, with widespread male same‑sex love and social networks that made such relationships visible and relatively common.* Evidence from court records, witness testimonies, and moralizing tracts shows active male queer communities, which helped cement the idea that Italy was unusually tolerant—or at least unusually saturated—with this behavior compared with other parts of Europe.* By the later 17th century, phrases like “the Italian vice” circulated in elite European discourse as coded ways to talk about male same‑sex intimacy without naming it directly.* In the 19th century, British and other northern European tourists helped revive and spread the “Italian vice” stereotype, both fascinated and scandalized by what they believed was Italy’s relaxed sexual morality.* Italian commentators themselves sometimes played into this image, depicting Italians as indolent and sexually lax compared with more “serious” northern Europeans, which ironically helped confirm foreign expectations.The English Vice: Erotic flagellation (and sometimes same-sex relationships)* Earlier, England was more often stereotyped by others as dour, puritan, or sexually repressed rather than especially deviant.* As the 19th century progressed, however, English public culture became strongly moralizing, with intense attention to sexual “perversions,” and English law was notably harsh on male same‑sex acts, making Britain a focal point for debates about homosexuality.* In that climate, continental commentators could talk about “English vice” to refer to specific behaviors (often male homosexual practices or flagellation in certain accounts) thought to be particularly prevalent or visible in England, especially in elite circles or sex‑work contexts.* This echoed how “Italian vice” had been used earlier for male homosexuality, but now with England associated both with moral panic and with the very behaviors it persecuted.Muslims: Fanatical warriors* Muslims and Ottoman Turks were cast as fanatical warriors, sexually threatening and religiously dangerous, sometimes admired for courage but feared as barbarous enemies of Christendom.Northern European: Dull work horses; Southern Europeans: Indulgent drama queens* Northern Europeans were often described as phlegmatic: slow, heavy, and dull, but honest and hardy; southern Europeans as more choleric or sanguine: quick‑tempered, passionate, and prone to luxury and intrigue.Northern Italians: Industrious but cold; Southern Italians: Lazy and emotional* Within Italy, later stereotypes distinguished industrious but cold northerners (polentoni) from lazy, emotional southerners (terroni), though these crystallized more fully after the Renaissance; the underlying idea of regional moral and temperamental contrast was already present.* Lombards and other Italian moneylenders were depicted as grasping and corrupting, metaphorically likened to Jews in some moralizing discourse, which tied Italian banking centers to greed and social decay.Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. It’s so nice to be speaking with you today because as is tradition on Base Camp, we will do what we probably should not do. And, and today we’re gonna go through the history of r- basically group-based and racial stereotypes.[00:00:15] It’s gonna be great.[00:00:16] Malcolm Collins: We are going to teach you guys... No, this is, this is what you come to Base Camp for. Yeah. You want to be educated, but not educated in what the system wants you to know.[00:00:24] Simone Collins: Yes.[00:00:24] Malcolm Collins: You want to be educated in the dark lore of these groups.[00:00:28] Simone Collins: We’re gentlemen of culture. A culture of culture. And by culture, we mean-[00:00:31] Malcolm Collins: You want to know, not just what you call a Jew today- Yes[00:00:36] but what did you call a Jew 300 years ago? You[00:00:40] Simone Collins: want to know- These are the important questions ...[00:00:41][00:00:56] Malcolm Collins: not just what you call a Black person today, but what were the stereotypes Black people had in ancient Europe? What about the Greeks? What about the various European states? Were some- Mm-hmm ... people primarily known for fetishes they had?[00:01:11] Yes, they were, we will learn.[00:01:13] Simone Collins: Well, of course.[00:01:13] Speaker 7: Welcome to the Museum here, we try to educate you on the dynamics of racism and prejudice in America.[00:01:22] We are now entering the Hall of Stereotypes. These wax figures represent how some intolerant people have labeled minorities. Here we see a Black person eating chicken and watermelon, a stereotype that hurts the African-American community.[00:01:36] What other stereotypes do you see here?[00:01:38] Speaker 10: Ah, here’s the Arab as a terrorist.[00:01:41] Speaker 7: That’s right. But of course, we know that not all Arabs are terrorists, don’t we, kids?[00:01:44] Speaker 8: Look, a covetous Jew.[00:01:46] Speaker 7: Very good, young man. The idea that Jews are only interested in money is very old indeed.[00:01:50] Speaker 11: Ah, here’s a good one. It’s the stereotypical sleepy Mexican.[00:01:54] Speaker 12: What, what? Oh, man, what time is it?[00:01:56] Speaker 11: Oh, I’m sorry. I thought you were a wax sculpture.[00:01:58] Speaker 12: No, man, I’m the janitor. I’m supposed to be cleaning, but I’m so tired.[00:02:02] Oh, I’m so sleepy.[00:02:04] Malcolm Collins: So let’s go into it.[00:02:06] Simone Collins: Yeah. And this, you know, this was really spurred, at least with me, by the release of Talky, this 13M vintage language model, which you can also find on RFAB along with other-[00:02:16] Malcolm Collins: Yes, so on RFAB, we have a section of RFAB called Historic Chat, and in it you have models that were trained in different ways in different periods.[00:02:22] And, and now all of them are working as far as I know.[00:02:25] Simone Collins: Yeah, I was just using the Talky version.[00:02:28] Malcolm Collins: And you asked Talky, I loved you sent me this image, and[00:02:31] Simone Collins: I was like- No, this this is actually a different one that I found when people on Reddit were comparing their findings, ‘cause I actually think that whoever at Talky has, has changed it a little bit maybe nerfed it a little bit.[00:02:42] So this person- No, wait,[00:02:43] Malcolm Collins: what’s this other one that you found? Can you send it to me so I can add it to RFAB?[00:02:48] Simone Collins: The, this was Talky, but this was Talky when it first came out.[00:02:51] Malcolm Collins: Oh. You see, I think- When people got mad[00:02:53] Simone Collins: at it ... after everything, yeah, after people shared their amazing findings they changed it because I had difficulty replicating them.[00:03:00] But here’s someone who posted to Talky, “What do you think about race mixing in America?” Talky 1930 responded, “I think mixture of races in America must be deprecated. The white and Black races can never live together on terms of social and political equality. The presence of slaves among freemen is an abomination, and although emancipation may in time remove that blot from our national eschaton, the amalgamation of the two classes must continue to be...”[00:03:35] And it’s kind of cut off, but basically-[00:03:37] Malcolm Collins: Regarded as, yeah ...[00:03:38] Simone Collins: yeah, re- regarded as something, something bad. Like, Talky is kind of weird in that it cuts off really early, and it, it, it still does now, but it, it clearly did for this person, too. So yeah, we, I think we forget how- pervasive various forms of racism, and just, a- actually, I don’t, like, there really wasn’t a s- such a thing as racism.[00:03:56] It was just kind of like people recognized [00:04:00] patterns and started to turn them into jokes and had stereotypes about people and groups, and it wasn’t seen as a bad thing. It was... And, and people, I think, also understood that these were not pervasive truths. Like, well, if a person is X, then obviously Y. It was just understood that there were averages and patterns.[00:04:20] But that, that became stereotypes, and eventually that became defined as racism.[00:04:23] Malcolm Collins: Is, is that, this show, Averages & Patterns- Averages &[00:04:26] Simone Collins: Patterns ...[00:04:26] Malcolm Collins: it, it, it’s, it’s changing consumer behavior. Changing cons-[00:04:29] Simone Collins: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. But this goes back as long as basically there were different people. So we are gonna start, Malcolm, with ancient Egypt.[00:04:39] I’m going to send you some images. So you,[00:04:41] Malcolm Collins: you wanted to turn our audience from casual racists into professional racists.[00:04:46] Simone Collins: Into, yes. Into, well, scholarly racists, into sophisticated racists who understand the context and the- Okay. I, I can’t.[00:04:57] Malcolm Collins: That’s what you come to Basecamp from.[00:04:59] Simone Collins: This is, this is why you’re here, friends.[00:05:00] Sure. But yeah, so in ancient Egypt, and this is really interesting, different groups were absolutely depicted differently in Egyptian art, with the Egyptians m- typically depicting themselves as, like, the r- the reddish looking ones.[00:05:13] Malcolm Collins: This is fascinating ...[00:05:15] Simone Collins: nubians were g- given a very, very dark color.[00:05:19] Asiatics were- Yeah, this, this is[00:05:20] Malcolm Collins: where, when people say that Egypt was run by Black people, I’m like, you can look at Egyptian art. Egyptians, like, characterize Black people in a very specific way. And, and there actually was one dynasty that was run by Black people. It was I think, like, a period of, like, 150 years, 250 years or something like that.[00:05:38] Simone Collins: And- Yeah, there’s a lot of history in Egypt ... and[00:05:40] Malcolm Collins: the art changed. In that period, the pharaohs were drawn Black, right? Like, it, th- it’s, it’s not like-[00:05:47] Simone Collins: Yeah, there, there’s not that much ambiguity there. Like, it’s pretty clear when Egyptians are attempting to depict... And this is the thing about Egyptian art.[00:05:54] It’s so helpful, because there was this one way for hundreds and hundreds of years that everything kind of had to be drawn. Like, there wasn’t much evolution in art. Right. So there’s not this, like- Yeah ... “Oh, no, this is a stylistic choice.” No, like, Egyptians had, they didn’t have the capacity for that. They’re like, “No, we are always going to draw-” For stylistic choices.[00:06:10] They’re like- Yeah, like- ... “There is one[00:06:11] Malcolm Collins: way of doing[00:06:12] Simone Collins: things” ... the person shall always be sideways. We’re doing it. It is, they’re gonna look in this exact way. It was very unusual to see art that differed from that which is kind of helpful. But yeah, so, Asiatics were tan and often bearded, and Libyans were the palest looking ones and often bearded.[00:06:29] For most of the, the European periods that historians have looked at Nubians were really framed or, like, you know, categorized i- stereotypically as, as people to be conquered. Like, they, they weren’t I, I, I would at least want to be a Nubian in ancient Egypt, we’ll put it that way. The texts and artistic programs from pharaonic Is that, is that how we say it?[00:06:53] F- a Pharaoh, Pharo- basically Egypt in the time of Pharaohs sometimes emphasize Nubia as this land to be subdued and exploited. That’s kind of, I think, as, as good as you can go. And that kind of supported this idea of Nubians also being a little bit barbaric or less civilized. They would show up in art often as, as servants.[00:07:14] So at least for most of Egyptian history, they did not get the great- greatest position. The Canaanites and Asiatics were also, though, seen as, as rebellious and treacherous. So they’re, mm, they’re, like, culturally sub- suspect. They’re linked to rebellion and disorder. But they were also trading partners.[00:07:35] So rather than just, like, “We’re gonna conquer you and take you over,” it was, “Well, like, well, we, we like their textiles, so I guess they’re okay kind of. But, like, don’t trust them. N- never trust you know, whoever you’re buying your carpet from.” I don’t know what they-[00:07:49] Malcolm Collins: Wait, did they, did they have specific people who they were like, “Don’t trust them”?[00:07:53] Simone Collins: There were no, there were no, like, specific figures, but I mean, yeah, you wouldn’t trust a Canaanite. Well,[00:07:58] Malcolm Collins: what were the Egyptian stereotypes about [00:08:00] the Nubians? Did you look that up, or should I pull that up right now?[00:08:02] Simone Collins: There were... I mean, like, this is all so old that a lot of this is conjecture that people are just trying to extrapolate from images, so it’s more just you understand where they are in the social order based on a lot of art.[00:08:14] Like, the people who are lower on the social order are depicted as smaller. The Pharaohs and the Egyptians are depicted as larger. That’s, that’s part of what people are looking at. But yeah, there, there was, there wasn’t like a, “Oh, you know Nubians. They’re like this.” I, I didn’t pick up on anything from that.[00:08:31] It’s more just general, like, “Well, these ones are reliable vassals, and these ones, w- we conquer them. That’s what we do. Like, we like to make art of us trouncing them.” Which i- is, it’s kind of a recurring theme of, like, there’s us and there’s others, and that’s going to show up a ton, and I think it really helps me contextualize the way that biases work today.[00:08:52] Even within the most, like, anti-racist groups, there’s us and there’s others. Mm-hmm. You know? There’s, there’s the, the progressive, enlightened, woke person, and then there’s Nazis. Like, it’s one or the other. One, choose yours. You know? Like, Nazi’s a new word for barbarian, and looking at all this history has really helped me think of that or contextualize that.[00:09:11] Libyans, I think, were really interesting. They were also barbarians to the Egyptians ‘cause they weren’t Egyptians. But they turned into useful soldiers and then even rulers for a short period, like you were saying with with Nubians.[00:09:21] Malcolm Collins: So yeah, with Nubians they did have stereotypes. They, they were- Okay, tell me[00:09:25] stereotyped as, as archers, first of all- Oh ... and, and mercenaries, but that’s because they were archers and mercenaries, right? Yeah. You know?[00:09:31] Simone Collins: That’s not a stereotype. That’s just, like, a-[00:09:34] Malcolm Collins: But there’s also the stereotype of the, the, the wretched Kush which you’ve talked about, of, of being a defeated enemy, right?[00:09:40] The wretched Kush. So they, they had- Yeah ... a lot of Nubian slaves bound captives, kneeling prisoners, being people being trampled upon or slaughtered by the Pharaoh.[00:09:48] Simone Collins: Yeah. That’s, that’s what you see, again, like smaller, being defeated in battle, kind of like, “This is a loser.” I think the Libyans w- in all the groups as perceived by ancient Egyptians are the most interesting because they were like a frenemy kind of.[00:10:02] They weren’t totally bad. They, they were sometimes trading partners, sometimes they were enemies. They were first mentioned in the New Kingdom, so going way back, and they also look super interesting. Like, they have the most style.[00:10:18] And I wonder if that’s kind of why the Egyptians were, like, frenemies with them because they also had clearly a very distinct culture.[00:10:24] In images of Nubian- Libyans, they have, like, this really distinct haircut where it’s just short at the nape of the neck. They have a side lock of hair that they wear. So they have, like, their hairstyles, and they also have tattoos, which is such a, like... So they have this very distinct style. They have fashion.[00:10:41] And then eventually so many Libyans migrated into Egypt that they completely changed the political landscape of, of the Nile Valley. So maybe the Libyans were some of the first ever, like, you know, migrant waves-[00:10:55] Malcolm Collins: Migrant waves that are[00:10:56] Simone Collins: a problem, right? Like- Yeah, this is, like, the migrant, “Oh, the Libyans,” like, you know.[00:10:59] The Libyans.[00:11:00] Yeah Which, I mean, it’s, some things just never change, right? Like, stereotyped as dangerous and more like barbarians but also sometimes useful soldiers. Just kind of a complex cousin frenemy kind of culture. So I, yeah, anyway, I, I kinda didn’t know anything about Libyans. I’d listened to that really long Great Courses lecture series about ancient Egypt, and I don’t remember anything about Libyans, so I’m like, “Well, what’s...[00:11:25] Come on.” It was always just about, like, Egypt really liking to trounce outsiders, so I don’t know.[00:11:30] Malcolm Collins: Okay, okay. So- Do we have any, do we have any graffiti or anything from this period of making fun of people?[00:11:35] Simone Collins: No, all the graffiti that you’ll typically find is, like, Roman or Napoleonic scratchings on hieroglyphs or modern tourists defacing them.[00:11:44] Okay,[00:11:45] Malcolm Collins: well, let’s get to that. Let’s keep moving then.[00:11:46] Simone Collins: Yeah. Ancient Greece th- and they’re very common of, like, you’re either someone who is Hellenistic, you spoke Greek, or you’re a barbarian. And obviously the Greeks were not- Well, I[00:11:56] Malcolm Collins: mean, I remember they had a lot of stereotypes about the Macedonians.[00:11:59] Oh[00:11:59] Simone Collins: [00:12:00] yeah, Persians, Persians. They were like, “[00:12:02] Look at these effete pretty boys.” Like you can see this, this art of Darius here looking very fancy. He wasn’t even always the Persian rulers were not even always necessarily depicted negatively, but they were always depicted as very fancy. And like- And I can’t remember what that movie was.[00:12:20] Where was that movie? What was that movie we watched where, like, the Persian ruler, I think it was Darius in it,[00:12:26] Malcolm Collins: Well, the idea of shaming- Just so pretty ... idolatry or the accumulation of ostentatious wealth, whi- which is what we think the idolatry bans are really about is like, the, i- just back to the beginning of Western history.[00:12:39] Yeah. Like the, the Greeks, the Spartans, they laughed at the people who did this. But on the opposite side of this, you have the, the Macedonians, who had a lot of stereotypes associated with them.[00:12:48] Simone Collins: Oh yeah, no, Macedonians were seen as, like, these heavy drinkers, raucous partiers, like sloppy drunks who didn’t even mix their wine.[00:12:58] What monsters.[00:12:59] Malcolm Collins: They were basically seen by the Greeks the way most other cultures in American history saw the greater Appalachian region people.[00:13:08] Simone Collins: They were, they were the drunk cousin of Greece. Like, they, they’re the ones you don’t want showing up at the party who, who drinks way too much and then, like, picks a fight.[00:13:17] But[00:13:17] Malcolm Collins: ultimately they were the much more effective population, right?[00:13:21] Simone Collins: I know, I know, I know. I mean, you have yeah, you have Alexander the Great. Like, it[00:13:24] Malcolm Collins: was a big embarrassment. They, they, they come to the, the Olympic Games and it’s like, “Yeah, sure, you’re allowed,” but, like, it’s the hillbillies coming to the Olympic Games over-[00:13:29] Simone Collins: Yeah, it’s like their hold my beer moment, and they go and conquer.[00:13:33] And it’s amazing.[00:13:34] Malcolm Collins: For people who are familiar, the Macedonians are the ones that Philip of Macedon, Alexander the Great came from. Yeah. Ended up conquering all of Greece and then most of the known world at the time.[00:13:42] Simone Collins: Yeah. And then you know, Cleopatra resulting from this. Like, the, the lasting influence there was huge.[00:13:48] And I, I love the- The, the royal metallurgies or, yeah ...[00:13:51] Malcolm Collins: yeah, so[00:13:51] Simone Collins: back to Persians though, basically, and this is funny too, you know? We, we’ve done that episode where you were like, “Well, I don’t know if people in the Middle East can handle democracy, just like culturally. Like, they, they can’t.” This is exactly what Greeks thought about Persians.[00:14:04] They were like, “Well, these decadent, soft people-” Well- “... are naturally suited to monarchy” ... hold on. “They can’t handle free citizenship. They can’t handle-” They[00:14:11] Malcolm Collins: can’t handle free citizenship. You’re like[00:14:11] Simone Collins: literally pointing out something that’s not true. I, I point[00:14:12] Malcolm Collins: out, Simone, I said that about Arabs, not about- Oh, sorry, Arabs[00:14:15] not about Persians, okay?[00:14:17] Simone Collins: Not about Persians. Well, well, right. I’m saying the Greeks said it about Persians. It’s just that y- you know, you’re not the first person to say that a people cannot handle you know, free citizenship and voting. Some people just need a king. And by[00:14:28] Malcolm Collins: the way, for the people who think that I’m being offensive there, go to our episode on it, the statistics on- No,[00:14:32] Simone Collins: you, you make a compelling argument[00:14:34] Malcolm Collins: on how many times it has been the, we have achieved stable democracies in the Arab world is astonishingly low when contrasted with Northern Europe.[00:14:42] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. O- of course Athens was just sort of considered the cultural capital of the world, but I... My understanding from the various accounts and readings and stuff is that they, everyone saw them as like that stuck-up girl who thinks so much of herself.[00:14:57] And yes, she gets all As and she’s valedictorian and she’s the richest girl in class and she’s super popular, but everyone’s like, “Ugh, like, stop. You’re f- this is tedious.” And everyone saw Spartans a- a- I mean, rightfully so, because here you have Spartans. Sparta’s really different. They, they do not allow foreigners.[00:15:14] They’re very afraid that outsiders are gonna spy on them. They have their harsh, militarized way of life. You know, both girls and young boys are training heavily. The girls are very athletic, in contrast to the classic Athenian woman who, like, the, the perfect Athenian woman you’d never see. She would stay in the back house until she married, and then go to someone else’s, like, back of their house and y- you just...[00:15:35] They were very absent from public life, not very, not very vocal. And then, you know, you have Spartans who are property owners, who are strong and athletic and out there. And here actually you can see, ‘cause you just don’t see statues of or- Mm ... depictions of Athenian women like this. This is a statue of a Spartan running girl[00:15:56] like just a female athlete.[00:15:58] You would n- see [00:16:00] this in a museum and you would immediately know this is from Ancient Greece, she must be Spartan, ‘cause, like, you don’t, you don’t have, like, girls athletically running. This is not a, this is not a thing that people do. So- I, I need to see where this was founded, but Professor Rufus Fears speaking for The Great Courses was like, everyone...[00:16:19] ‘Cause in, in in Athens you would get a wet nurse or something. Everyone wanted a, a Spartan wet nurse ‘cause they were the toughest and they wanted- Yeah ... their babies to be drinking the milk of these strong women if they’re like, especially male babies, right? You don’t want that weak Athenian milk.[00:16:31] You don’t[00:16:32] Malcolm Collins: want that weak... Yeah. Yeah. No, the, the, this is, this comes to an episode where we point out that cultures that are often more militaristic, typically the more martial a culture is, the more gender equal it is between men and women. Yeah. And, and we go into why in, in that episode, but you’re seeing this here with Ath- Spartan women versus Athenian women.[00:16:51] Simone Collins: Yeah. So the Ionian Greeks, do you, can you imagine what they, people thought of them?[00:16:55] Malcolm Collins: They’re[00:16:56] Simone Collins: boring. I don’t know. These are the coastal cities under Persian rule. What, what... They, they obviously thought they were cowards. Oh, yeah. That[00:17:00] Malcolm Collins: they’re, they’re[00:17:01] Simone Collins: effem. They’re weak, they’re softened, the- their mild climate has made them indolent.[00:17:07] That they’re, they’re good talkers, but they’re terrible warriors. And then the Boeotians were just seen as hicks, like those just like- Who were the[00:17:13] Malcolm Collins: Boeotians?[00:17:14] Simone Collins: Especially Thebans. Like, y- you’re more aware of Thebans. Oh, The- Like the band of Thebes ...[00:17:18] Malcolm Collins: they were seen as hicks? They were the ones going to[00:17:19] Simone Collins: go to Thebes?[00:17:19] Yeah, like, well, they were brutish country hicks. They were agricultural, they were uncultured, they were uncosmopolitan. Keep in mind, most of the people, like, writing history are the Athenians with all their books and all their,[00:17:31] Malcolm Collins: you know, temples. No, there were a lot of Ionian Greeks who wrote history.[00:17:33] Like, Herodotus was an Ionian, as far as I remember.[00:17:36] Simone Collins: Right? I don’t know. That sounds just like, you know how New Zealanders, like, you just see them outside of New Zealand all the time because they have to travel the world. Maybe that kind of fits with the whole, you know, had to leave thing. But I don’t know.[00:17:48] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It, well, so he wrote in Ionic dialect and was deeply influenced by Ionic philosophical and historical traditions.[00:17:55] Simone Collins: Mm.[00:17:55] Malcolm Collins: But he was technically in a region settled by the Dorian[00:17:59] Simone Collins: Greeks.[00:17:59] Malcolm Collins: Ah. But I, I don’t know if they would’ve seen a, a difference. But yeah, continue.[00:18:03] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:18:04] We’re gonna move on to Ancient Rome because this is where I actually was able to get some good graffiti at least one instance that I, I really loved in terms of, like, a stere- ‘cause I, it’s not just finding old graffiti, which is really hard to find, okay? But it’s finding old graffiti that depicts racial stereotypes and, and Romans did a lot of graffiti, they did a lot of trash talk.[00:18:22] If you go, for example, to the, the Roman baths in Bath, in England, in Somerset you can see some of the inscriptions on little pieces of, I think, what is it? Copper? That people wrote on and then dropped into a, like, sacred pool at a temple for a goddess. You know, like, so they would, like, write on a thing, throw it in the water for the god to hear, and the things people wrote, once they carefully unfolded and read these inscriptions, were so fricking petty.[00:18:50] They’re like, “Make so and so blind for stealing my bag,” and like, you know, it was just people fricking hated each other. Like, we’ve been petty forever. But that’s not about a racial stereotype or it’s not about a group-based st- stereotype. But here’s, is something delightful, and I just love, you know, graffitis that also looks like such terrible drawings.[00:19:08] But tell me what you see, Malcolm.[00:19:11] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay, okay, okay. Sorry. Oh, let’s see. Open it up here.[00:19:17] Simone Collins: Yeah, what are you looking at here?[00:19:18] Malcolm Collins: Oh, I know this one. I’ve seen this one before. This is so, so I don’t even have to interpret it because I know this particular art so well.[00:19:26] Simone Collins: This is famous, yeah.[00:19:26] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but this is supposed to be somebody being crucified with a donkey head, and then somebody else is worshiping the person being crucified with a donkey head.[00:19:36] Simone Collins: And the, the writing says, “Go worship your donkey god,” because that is what Romans thought of both Jews and Christians. Well- This is more Christians in this case ...[00:19:46] Malcolm Collins: why the donkey? Why the... the, do we know?[00:19:49] Simone Collins: You know, it, it wasn’t very clear. But it was just a well-known slur at the time that both Jews and Christians worshiped a donkey.[00:19:57] This was an accusation that had a name. It was called [00:20:00] an- anility. And they used the donkey head to mock Christ and th- th- this is specifically, like, it’s an insult to... Again, ‘cause Romans are, like, so freaking petty and they’re very targeted. But it’s, it’s an insult toward Alexamenos. But yeah, it’s like, go worship your donkey god, Alexamenos.[00:20:16] Malcolm Collins: Go worship your donkey god, you nerd. Oh, right. And then the guy in the picture looks like a real guy. I know, I know. Like, he looks like he could have been a person.[00:20:24] Simone Collins: It’s, it’s, it’s wonderful. It, it is,[00:20:25] Malcolm Collins: Just trying to go about his normal life ... yeah,[00:20:27] Simone Collins: just trying to worship his donkey god. I mean, okay, let me, let me actually double-click on anility, because yeah, where did they get donkey?[00:20:35] Maybe ‘cause Jesus rode into... But then why would the Jews worship a donkey? Worship of donkey and by extension, figurative devotion to fooln- foolishness. The core meaning in its literal sense means worship of the ass or donkey as a deity. Mommy? Yeah, buddy? In antiquity, pagan authors in the Hellenistic and Roman worlds accused Jews and later early Christians of anolatry, claiming they worshiped a donkey or donkey-headed idol. Writers such as Tacitus mention this slur, and Christian apologists like Tertullian and Minicius Felix refer to it in order to refute it.[00:21:15] W- why? Why did they think Jews worshiped[00:21:29] A donkey. Maybe it was, you know, one of those things that just like if donkeys were fools. Th- they’re not really saying that Jews worshiped a donkey, but donkeys were just a representation of like y- this is a ridiculous religion. Ancient- No, Tex. Ancient Greek and Roman authors did not seriously objur- observe Jews worshiping a donkey.[00:21:51] They developed that idea as a hostile slur that blended ethnographic fantasy, wordplay, and polemic about aniconic worship. Anicon- aniconic.[00:22:02] Malcolm Collins: Aniconic.[00:22:04] Simone Collins: Okay. That’s a new word. Aniconic, ladies and gentlemen. So yeah, no, the, the, it’s just, it’s like an intentional slur that has no basis in reality, but they’re like, “What are you doing?”[00:22:17] Okay, fine. He’s just, just here for the ride. He’s- Oh, not if you do that, though. Let’s get back to what Romans thought of people. Jews were seen as basically stubborn, cliquey weirdos. They were portrayed as very, like, hard-headed subjects with this herd mentality who were fiercely attached to their weird, unique customs such as circumcision and, and deity laws and not, not killing babies.[00:22:48] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, Tactica complained about that.[00:22:50] Simone Collins: Yeah, like, what, who, who are these crazy people who don’t even kill their weak babies? And then all outsiders, of course, were barbarians. Greeks were admirable but contemptible. Like, they were, like, you know, of course the source of philosophy and art and literature.[00:23:06] They were nerds. Yeah, yeah. They were- Oh my God, that is totally, yeah, they were nerds. They were seen as, as talkative and tricky and morally weak and effeminate and prone to luxury and unreliable and more. Like brainy but soft. They were, they were nerds. Greeks, the OG nerds. I love[00:23:23] Malcolm Collins: that. The OG nerds.[00:23:23] Don’t trust them.[00:23:24] Simone Collins: Phoenicians- I[00:23:25] Malcolm Collins: wouldn’t trust a Greek. Not back then, I’ll tell you what.[00:23:27] Simone Collins: They- Oh, for sure not. Yeah. Oh my God, so was Nero a weeb? The Rome, Rome was the America of the time. No, like Nero then must have been kind of weeb-like, right? ‘Cause he’s like, “I just love the Greeks so much.” “And I wanna be an actor.”[00:23:38] Was that just his thing? No, a[00:23:39] Malcolm Collins: good way to think of the way the Romans viewed the Greeks is the way Americans view Europeans.[00:23:44] Simone Collins: Oh my gosh, okay. Yes ...[00:23:47] Malcolm Collins: like cultured but like effeminate and weak, right? Like a failure. Like[00:23:51] Simone Collins: they are not- Like, yeah ...[00:23:52] Malcolm Collins: really set to run an empire. Come on, man. No, that’s horrific.[00:23:56] America needs to come back on and crack some heads because [00:24:00] they’re being ruled by their women again.[00:24:02] Simone Collins: Oh gosh, that is, that is such a thing. Yeah, let’s see. Just generally like Syrians and Carthaginians and Phoenicians were seen as sleazy merchants. But I, I think like, honestly, and this is showing up as a pattern, anyone who kind of traded with your empire who was like an outside trading partner was like, ooh, suspicious.[00:24:20] I don’t know. But this makes sense because the dynamic is this is a trading partner. Like, they obviously wanna get the better end of a deal. You’re negotiating, so you’re going to have some level of distrust. So I’m seeing like this pattern, right? There’s the Libyans and then there’s the Phoenicians and...[00:24:35] Oh, Egyptians though were seen as- Very ancient and sinister with their weird superstition and their arrogant priests and their... They, they, they really didn’t... Also, Rome kind of resented them, and I think that it’s similar to how China can resent the US and, and, and other countries, ‘cause Egypt was kind of the breadbasket for Rome.[00:24:58] They were really, e- especially, es- especially during certain times, dependent on them for food. So it was like, well, they need Egyptian grain, but they’re also these, like, weird, mysterious, superstitious people, and they were kind of, like, fascinated and disturbed by them. It was as if, like, you need all of your food from, or, like, a lot of your food from some, like...[00:25:21] Oh, like your kid in the cafeteria, and your parents always neglect to pack your lunch, but, like, this creepy goth girl in the corner- Mm-hmm ... or, like, Wiccan is like, “Yes, come, and I will read your tarot cards.” And it’s like, well I need the food and she’s kinda hot, but she really creeps me out. So I don’t want this.[00:25:40] And I think Cleopatra, I, I read, I’ve read multiple biographies about her, really played up this stereotype and used it well because[00:25:49] Malcolm Collins: she spent- You know, she’s like, like the goth, she was the goth girl of her era, right?[00:25:51] Simone Collins: Like- She was the hot goth of her era, 100%. Very dramatic.[00:25:56] Malcolm Collins: I’ll kill yourself with, like, a snake or whatever, right?[00:25:58] Like-[00:25:58] Simone Collins: 100%. I mean, she was totally the hot goth of her time, and very, like, that girl, too, in high school who would, like, sleeps with all the guys because she, like, understands how to play their tune and use them to her advantage. She’s- And do the mysterious, gothy thing. Ugh, yeah, for real. She was, yeah,[00:26:15] so spooky.[00:26:16] That was Egyptians. They were spooky.[00:26:20] Spooky.[00:26:21] Yeah. And then in general, like, Persians and Parthians were viewed as, as pretty formidable enemies and kind of that, I think similarly to how Egyptians viewed Libyans, it’s like, “Oh, well, you are a formidable enemy. Like, I worry about you.” I think similarly to how Greeks viewed Persians of like, “Ah, I mean, you’re effete and pretty, and, you know, your people are soft, but I gotta watch out for you.”[00:26:46] The Gauls were seen as these noble savages. So while they were seen as, like, hot-headed and brave noble savages, they were also seen as, like, sort of impetuous and simple and prone to rashness, kind of like a- Yes ... the big meatheads, I guess. The meatheads of the North. They were the, the jock on the, the, the high school team.[00:27:04] They would just kind of follow orders, I guess, from some leader, from like a bunch- I’m trying to[00:27:07] Malcolm Collins: get more Roman Jewish stereotypes than you had, ‘cause I don’t, I don’t like, yeah, I don’t think you, you, you go, you had enough there. Continue.[00:27:12] Simone Collins: Of my Roman Jews? Yeah. And then the, the, but the Germans were seen as even more savage versions of the Gauls, and I know that, like, Germany wasn’t a thing yet, but, like, people from that re- region that is now Germany, they were like the extra, extra Gauls.[00:27:26] They were super Gauls. They were even more savage, even more unconqueror. They were like the, they came from the trees, from the dirt. They were like dirt people and they-[00:27:37] Malcolm Collins: Wait, who were, who were the super golds?[00:27:39] Simone Collins: The Germans The Germans? The, the, well, I mean, like- They were ... the people from the, yeah, and like they, they were, they totally were.[00:27:44] They were both like romanticized by the Romans, who were like, “Ah, these noble savages.” Like, they were kind of the OG noble savage.[00:27:51] Malcolm Collins: So, so, okay, I, I pulled up their, their Jewish stereotypes.[00:27:54] Simone Collins: Oh, no. They- Okay, go on ...[00:27:55] Malcolm Collins: were clannish, antisocial, and misanthropic. Specifically [00:28:00] Jews were accused of refusing to mix with others, sitting apart at meals, sleeping separately, and showing loyalty only to fellow Jews.[00:28:07] Tacitus, the harshest source- Didn’t I say[00:28:09] Simone Collins: that quickly? ...[00:28:10] Malcolm Collins: wrote that a- and Tacitus, by the way, was the, the biggest source. He was the one who complained that they wouldn’t kill their babies. That they sit apart at meals and they sleep apart. And they were prone to lust. They abstained from for- oh, he says, “While they’re prone to lust, they abstain from foreign women.”[00:28:25] I love that’s one of the problems. They’re prone to lust, but only other Jews. But[00:28:28] Simone Collins: they’re, they’re not taking our women. Like, what? Really? Like, where are you going with that? He claimed[00:28:32] Malcolm Collins: they showed com- compassion only to each other and were hostile to all others. Cicero complained that the Jews stick together and had undue influence in Roman assemblies.[00:28:42] That’s hilarious. Okay. Oh, my God. So, the Jews control all of Rome. They’re all in our assemblies, guys. They, they did not like the, the pork taboo was frequently ridiculed. The incision was ri- ri- ridiculed. Sabbath observance ridiculed, and the a- aniconism that you talked about. Yeah.[00:28:58] Simone Collins: Yeah,[00:28:58] Malcolm Collins: they were- And they really hated, and see our episode- Weirdos[00:29:00] if you’re not familiar with this, but the most common complaint about Jews is that they were always attempting to convert Romans, which obviously has changed in Judaism, and see our episode, The Question that Breaks Judaism, where we go over the history of this change in Judaism.[00:29:13] Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s a, th- there’s a, abundant coverage of this.[00:29:19] But let’s move on to medieval Europe. Basically there were these, and, and this is interesting, the barbarians changed a little and it was kind of like they’re barely Christian. It, it, the, the primary concern with barbarians, like the Irish, the Welsh, the Slavs, Baltic people, there’s like, are they even Christian?[00:29:36] Like, what are, what are these monsters? But that’s kind of like the measuring stick is how Christ- are these good Christians? But Anglo-norml- Norman writers in England and, and also people living in what’s now Germany, would just routinely depict nearby frontier peoples which, you know, were Scottish Irish Slavs- Welcome[00:29:55] more far northen- northern people as just basically violent pastoralists, pirates, plunderers. They were resistant to law and agriculture. Like, “Do you even farm, bro?” And, and needing- Do you even[00:30:07] Malcolm Collins: farm, bro? ...[00:30:08] Simone Collins: to be conquested sorry, conquered, and they needed... It wasn’t just conquest, it was also missionary work.[00:30:14] Like, “We gotta send, we gotta... These guys need Jesus.” Like, they were, they were really worried about them. They were, they needed to, to be civilized, they needed to climb the... Well, I, I’m giving you stuff, but you’re just throwing it. Climb the rungs of civilization and, and, and be shown a better way I haven’t heard back, love. But yeah, this, so this, this, they need to be civilized stereotype was also used to excuse or justify expansion into these territories which I, I think is, like, a f- fairly ex- to be expected pattern, right?[00:30:49] Like, of course they would. That, that makes sense. We, you can kind of see, here’s an image. Like, there, there, again, there’s not much, like, imagery, but here are some engravings by Albrecht Dürer during the 1500s of-[00:31:03] Malcolm Collins: Okay ...[00:31:03] Simone Collins: pastoral people.[00:31:05] You have to see just other Roman graffiti that I found that wasn’t racist, but could be racist, ‘cause look at nose man. Looks just so weirdly modern. And[00:31:17] I, I forget what- Noseband.[00:31:19] Malcolm Collins: That’s very hilarious.[00:31:20] Simone Collins: Yeah. Someone didn’t like him or his floppy nose. Here are the pastoralists. So I don’t know, they just look kind of like they’re- ... they’re dancing. One’s playing a bagpipe. They’re just kinda like, “Eh.” Like, I don’t know. Lazy[00:31:34] Malcolm Collins: vagabonds.[00:31:34] Simone Collins: Like, I know exactly what you mean.[00:31:35] Lazy, yeah. Lazy vagabonds, I guess, is kind of the look they’re going for. So that’s the closest I could get to, like, a, a, a picture of them. But the Scots especially were just seen not only as, you know, among these things of, like, more in need of civilization and everything, but, like, southern Scotland was seen- Mm[00:31:53] as, like, kind of cool. Mm. Like, kinda chill. They’re all right. And then, like, northern Scotland was like, “No, they’re, they’re the worst. They’re poor and terrifying.” [00:32:00] But broadly speaking, they were seen as militarily dangerous, but just poor and less civilized. And they just had these small, poor towns and these people in their, in their swaddling swaddling...[00:32:15] What do you, what do you call them? Kilts? Not kilts. What are, like, the actual garments that people used to wear in Scotland that you wrap around? They’re very long.[00:32:23] You know what I’m talking about?[00:32:25] Malcolm Collins: No, I[00:32:25] Simone Collins: forget what you call- Yeah, you don’t care about[00:32:26] She’s talking about a great kilt[00:32:27] Malcolm Collins: your garments. I, I for- I forget the name. I know what you’re talking about.[00:32:30] Simone Collins: Yeah. I was thinking of Trump’s phrase swaddling hijab, which I just thought was the best phrase ever. But yeah, they were very, like, persistent enemies, and there, there was a lot of understanding of them being stubborn and warlike. The Jews, here’s where, like, the stuff, the antisemitic stuff gets I, I guess, good and what, where you were expecting something.[00:32:49] Mm. What I did not expect to see was a very big recurring theme with the Jews. Do you know what it is? Have you seen, like, older antisemitic art, like 1300s to 1700s? Is it[00:33:01] Malcolm Collins: their stupid hats?[00:33:02] Simone Collins: No. No. What is it? It involves a farm animal.[00:33:07] Malcolm Collins: I don’t know what it is then, no.[00:33:09] Simone Collins: So for whatever reason, pig suckling is just all over the pl- the suckling, the, the, lots of...[00:33:16] Like, here, here’s an example. This-[00:33:17] Malcolm Collins: So they think the Jews drink milk directly from pigs? That was the stereotype?[00:33:21] Simone Collins: Yeah, no. Check, check this out. So this is a church in Wittenberg. This is actually a church where Martin Luther preached once, and there was a fairly recent controversy where people were like, “Dude, this, this carving in this, this 1300s carving in this church is, like, super antisemitic.[00:33:38] It shows a bunch of Jews suckling from a pig.”[00:33:40] What do you think it is?[00:33:41] Octavian Collins: It’s like people, like raise people.[00:33:44] Simone Collins: Oh, like I’m raising you?[00:33:46] Octavian Collins: Yeah.[00:33:47] Simone Collins: So racism- Yeah ... is just another word for pronatalism. For raising.[00:33:52] Octavian Collins: Pronatalism? ‘[00:33:53] Simone Collins: Cause we’re raising. Raising. We’re raising him.[00:33:55] Malcolm Collins: We’re raising him. And we believe in racism. Raise-ism. Yeah. Raise-ism. I like that.[00:34:00] Simone Collins: Where was I? Right, suckling pigs. Right, so the, the, this, this, this church in Wittenberg, by the way, wasn’t taken down. Antisemitism is alive and well where[00:34:10] Malcolm Collins: the- Thank God. What a horrible thing if they took down something from the 1300s. It,[00:34:12] Simone Collins: it would be. It would be.[00:34:13] Like, it’s un- it’s helpful to understand the history of bias. So I-[00:34:18] Malcolm Collins: And we don’t know that Jews at that time period didn’t suckle from pigs.[00:34:22] Simone Collins: Right? I mean, h- so here’s another one. Mm. I, this, this is really pretty explicit. It’s kinda hard to make out what’s happening in this antisemitic engraving from the, I think this is also the 1300s.[00:34:36] And I couldn’t get a great translation. But it’s[00:34:40] there’s someone e- eating something out of the butt of what I believe is also a pig. Another person is suckling from its very full teat. People have got horns because you got the Jew horns. The Jew horns- Mm ... of course appear. Or[00:34:54] Malcolm Collins: that, that only makes sense.[00:34:56] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, duh. And there, there’s what appears to be possibly a dead baby at the top, so maybe here’s where we get the you know- Blood libel ... the Jews and the, and the babies. I don’t know. It’s kinda hard to tell. I don’t speak...[00:35:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I mean, this, this puts modern antisemitism to shame, you know?[00:35:14] Simone Collins: Here’s another image of- The way we- ... more Jews suckling from a pig. What, like this I, just blindsided me. Okay. Like, why, why are we, why,[00:35:26] Malcolm Collins: And they’re dressed like the freaking babies from that one skit, like, Ozymandias or whatever the, which is also hilarious. And one of them is, I guess, looking at the poo, and the other ones are suckling from its teat, and another one is looking at the baby’s butt and they’re in like baby outfits.[00:35:45] Speaker 13: What is the meaning of life? Well, then what’s your answer?[00:35:49] Speaker 14: I’ll never be able to say something as profound as my brother. My desire for my words to have sterile, clinical, literal meanings is sort of a wall that [00:36:00] prevents me from venturing close to people.[00:36:02] Sometimes I think the most direct route to another’s heart is through nonsense, and nonsense has always eluded me.[00:36:09] Speaker 13: Well, to you, then, what is the direct literal meaning of life?[00:36:11] Speaker 14: I hope before I am dead and my atoms are collected back into the neutron star at the center of the baby dimension, that I will discover why the love that I have for my brother was not enough for him to feel whole when that love is all that sustains me and all that I think I will ever have.[00:36:36] Speaker 13: I think what he meant to say was we like to have fun[00:36:40] Speaker 14: and get tickles.[00:36:41] Speaker 13: Okay.[00:36:42] Speaker 14: Right? Fun and tickles.[00:36:45] Simone Collins: Yeah, and this, I, I think I, I did not encounter any level of, we’ll say hatred or racism or othering against any group at all that I did with Jews during medieval to Renaissance Europe, That’s[00:37:01] Malcolm Collins: fascinating that, like, Jews really, like, the, the West learned how to racism with Jews.[00:37:06] Simone Collins: Oh, no, like for real, this was when, like, they went hard on them.[00:37:12] ‘Cause a- again, I, I had difficulty finding a whole lot of hate on other groups. It was like, “Oh, you know, those bumpkins.”[00:37:18] Malcolm Collins: No, what, what I also find funny about- Next slide ... this is just how extreme it is compared- It[00:37:22] Simone Collins: is ... to modern antisemitism. Well, and Malcolm, let me be clear. It, it’s not just this weird pig suckling thing.[00:37:27] It is that they, they basically thought they were, like, not human. Like, they had all these things that they, they thought they were like, they had weird bodily traits that other humans didn’t have, like that they were hemorrhoidal and had, had monthly bleeding that wasn’t- Just for women. They, they were very seen as, as, as melancholic and greedy and spiritually obstinate and this, this was like a hereditary genetic, like they, they were very much seen as subhuman, like as, as, as monsters.[00:37:59] And then this, this fell- That’s fascinating ... fed into more broad notions that Jews were these fixed outsiders that you, you could not integrate them into a Christian new Israel. And they were associated very much with usury and corruption. And actually not Alex actually was just reminding me the other day in our XDMs that it’s really, really weird, this idea among evangelical Americans that like, “Well, we want Jews in Israel because, you know, we need that for the second coming.”[00:38:28] This whole idea, like in, in Europe he, he reminded me, us that like in Europe, no, just the, the idea is that Christians are the descendants of Jews. And only, like you need Christians in Israel. You don’t need Jews in Israel.[00:38:42] Malcolm Collins: Like- Yeah. The, the Crusades were not about re-winning Israel for the Jews For[00:38:46] Simone Collins: Jews.[00:38:47] Yeah, exactly.[00:38:48] So that is something that’s powerful ... I mean,[00:38:49] Malcolm Collins: it’s a, it’s a different interpretation. And I think it is a, if I’m gonna be honest, I think the evangelical interpretation of those particular passages seems to be more literalist and as intended than the interpretation that the Catholic Church took in the medieval period.[00:39:06] The Catholic Church took a bunch of crazy positions in the medieval period that are just not heavily supported by the Bible. Yeah. And a lot of Christians forget just how much of that is, is... Like, I always point out like the Trinity, for example, is just not that well-supported by the Bible as a concept.[00:39:25] It’s not, the Bible isn’t specifically antagonistic to the Trinity. It doesn’t argue against it. But like it came out as a concept like 300 years later. And so when people were like, “Oh, you guys don’t believe in the Trinity, you’re not real Christians,” I’m like Excuse me ... that was not, that was not a thing for most of the early Christians Yeah.[00:39:35] Not[00:39:36] Simone Collins: my canon. Yeah,[00:39:36] Malcolm Collins: exactly.[00:39:43] Yeah. It’s like, that, that is a, that is a... Well, I think a lot of Christians forget the stuff that came in in the early councils and the stuff that’s actually in the Bible, and they conflate the two really heavily.[00:39:52] Simone Collins: Totally. I just sent you some more. I sent you one more Jew one. Oh. Oh, okay ... again, of Jews.[00:39:57] Again, they’re stuck. They can’t get off this pig. And [00:40:00] one of them looks like he wants to lick the pi- the pig’s- A hole on the wrong side. Three are suckling from the teat. The other one is chewing on its tail and riding it backwards[00:40:11] Malcolm Collins: Oh, thank God.[00:40:12] Simone Collins: They’re just like they... I’ve never seen racist art this explicit.[00:40:17] So as a palate cleanser, I’m gonna th- I also sent you my fav- Oh ... my favorite ones. This- A bird ... chicken, I guess. The chicken.[00:40:24] Malcolm Collins: Chicken. Okay.[00:40:25] Simone Collins: There’s the guy. Okay. I really like the guy. I[00:40:28] Malcolm Collins: think, I think m- I think Octavia would’ve drawn this chicken, just-[00:40:31] Simone Collins: It, it looks like something that Octavia would’ve drawn.[00:40:33] I think my favorite’s just like the little dude. Not the one with the hat, but just like the dude with the sword. Oh, yeah. Looks very much like a certain internet style. You know what I mean? It’s kind of a- Yeah ... kind of Invader Zim. It, it’s kind of giving Invader Zim. And I-[00:40:45] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it definitely has the j-[00:40:46] style of modern internet art, actually.[00:40:48] Simone Collins: Yeah. I’m like, “Oh my gosh,” like nothing is new. Nothing is new. I love, I[00:40:52] Malcolm Collins: love that- But actually, the, the guy with the hat also has a style of like some modern cartoons.[00:40:56] Simone Collins: Totally. Like, what, did, were these just over educated medieval art scholars who had to like get a commercial job and ended up illustrating for cartoons?[00:41:05] What is going on? But also I guess humans just draw certain ways, so who cares? I, I don’t know. But I found that very entertaining. Moving on to Renaissance Europe. This is what you alluded to earlier, the vice concept emerged. We have the French vice, the English vice, and the Italian vice. Cool. Which is delightful.[00:41:26] I think most people came to learn about the French vice in various movies and shows about the, the court of King Henry VIII and the Boleyn sisters. And that is because they spent some of their youth in the French royal court, which was the source of this reputation of the French vice. It was seen as this very A sexually loose place where he’d learn all sorts of tricks that the very prudish English women didn’t know.[00:41:57] I will leave this to your imagination, but imagine, and of course, this is what people were saying, we don’t know what actually happened in the bedroom. Mm. But imagine King Henry VIII’s delight when he discovers these young women from the French court who can do things to him that he couldn’t even imagine after spending all this time with his Catholic wife, Isabel.[00:42:17] Right, her name was Isabel. So yeah, th- this was like, it was very much a reputation. I think this is really downstream of the fact that the court the French court in general involved a lot of mistresses. So there was this depiction of like, well, there’s just, where there’s mistresses, there’s gotta be a lot of sex, and where there’s a lot of sex, you gotta have a lot of like, weird stuff going on.[00:42:37] Gotta have it ... and even to this day, you have French kissing. Mm-hmm. You know, and there’s still reputations. French[00:42:41] Malcolm Collins: kissing, yes. They[00:42:42] Simone Collins: invented it. Right? I mean, come on. Like, but think, it’s, it’s like some English person who’s never used tongue who’s like, “Well, this must be the French style.” You know, like, this thing holds.[00:42:50] It holds really well which is absolutely delightful. And then the important thing about these vice reputations, the, the English vice, the Italian vice, et cetera, is that once the seeds were planted in Renaissance Europe, in the early modern era, they just started to compound and grow on each other.[00:43:09] Okay. So after this became kind of a thing because of some, you know, like French court women kind of being seen as sexually manipulative ‘cause there are all these mistresses floating around, you started to get French literature really leaning into it, and there was this rise of this international publishing industry, so you also have the printing press making this worse.[00:43:28] But around the mid-1600s, all these erotic and semi-pornographic French books started entering the Germanic region. They started entering the UK. All these, all these basically French romantic and erotic smut started- Mm-hmm ... entering the rest of Europe. Really? And the printing presses made it super pervasive. So imagine if, like, suddenly books exist a- and, and all the romance novels that are really smutty come from France.[00:43:56] You- you’re gonna start to, like, build on this reputation. Yeah ... and y- [00:44:00] yeah, I had[00:44:00] Malcolm Collins: no idea- Well, I mean, for the longest time when I was younger, I remember the French women were known for being, like, slutty and not shaving their armpits.[00:44:08] Simone Collins: You know, some people find that hot. I don’t, but so it’s got... Some people like it.[00:44:11] Malcolm Collins: I’ve, I’ve heard it. Yeah, some people find bush hot, too. I d- I don’t understand.[00:44:15] Simone Collins: But anyway, these, these dirty books were basically, like, French... And, and I think French people leaned into the stereotype ‘cause they kinda liked being a little sexy. And so that’s, that’s it. And a very similar thing... I, so I didn’t know about, I didn’t know about the French literature compounding the issue and the printing press really fomenting it.[00:44:34] I also didn’t know why the Italian vice became such a big thing. So from the later Middle Ages onward, outsiders started to associate certain Italian cities, not all but especially Florence, as having widespread male same-sex love and social networks that made these relationships super visible and pretty common.[00:44:58] So basically there w- there was, like, the first gay scene was in Florence.[00:45:02] Speaker 6: , they invented gayness.[00:45:04][00:45:04] Speaker 17: I wonder if having Italy be disproportionately gay during the period of, , the development of many key Catholic institutions and doctrines is what played such a large part in such a large portion of the Catholic priesthood being same-sex attracted and, , the sort of large gay networks that many people have called out.[00:45:26] Milo Yiannopoulos, for example, wrote a book on the, , Lavender Mafia, as he called it, and we recently did an episode on the, , quote-unquote “gay Jewish,” , priests who ended up writing core Catholic doctrine. , But , the, these individuals’ ability to so thoroughly gain control of the church and its doctrine and teachings[00:45:42] Simone Collins: Maybe they... Gay people, chime in in the comments if there’s some other first gay scene, but, like, it seems like that really happened.[00:45:49] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, obviously there’s, there’s, there’s, like, pre-modern gay scenes, like Thebes and stuff like that, but yeah, yeah.[00:45:54] Simone Collins: Sure. Well, yeah. Well, allegedly. We don’t, we don’t know for sure. But there’s evidence from court records- We do know pretty sure about the[00:45:59] Malcolm Collins: Theban troops ...[00:46:01] Simone Collins: the Band of Thebes? Is there really? ‘Cause I remember, like, getting so excited about it and being like, “This is my yaoi romance. Let’s go. I need to learn more.”[00:46:08] And they were like, “Well, it wasn’t... We’re not sure.” We don’t know. We’re not sure how great or long- They’re not sure what happened during[00:46:15] Malcolm Collins: Creta ... what it was, but there was- Yeah ... a period where it happened[00:46:19] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.[00:46:20] Speaker 15: So I decided to go over all of the primary evidence we have for this, and it’s just demonstrable. , One, that the Sacred Band of Thebes existed. We know this because they helped hold the line against the Spartan king, Agis II in 378. , They, at the Battle of Tegyra in 375 BC under Polyeidus, , the 300 routed a much larger Spartan force.[00:46:44] For the first time, Spartans were defeated. , Spartans were defeated a much s- by a much smaller force, first of all. , They were instrumental in the stunning Theban victory over Spartans at Leuctra 371, , which ended Spartans’ dominance over Greece. And the unit fought other campaign until it was ultimately annihilated at the Battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC by the m- army of Philip II , of Macedon.[00:47:10] So, , for a long period, we have evidence of them existing. In terms of them being an armory of gay lovers, , this was attested by Plutarch, Dionysius, Plato, Xenophon, and other attestations appear, including Polyaenus, Athenaeus, Diodotus Siculus, , and several others. So there’s at least six ancient writers that describe the erotic pairing.[00:47:37] , So, , it... And we have arch- archaeological evidence. There is the Lion of Chaeronea, - monetary funeral lion, , and in 1879 to 1880, Greek archeologist, , Pantagathus Stamicus excavated a site and found 254 skeletons arranged in rows, seven rows, with some pairs having arms linked in hands clasped consistent with the, , what, what [00:48:00] we’re aware of with this.[00:48:01] , So yeah, this is almost certainly not a legend and was a real force, , in which, , it was made up , of gay men and was able to dramatically outperform forces that were thought of as... Like the Spartans’ famous saying, if 300 men beat, like, 3,000 , Persians, and then apparently they were beat by a fraction of their own number of the Band of Thebes.[00:48:20] Speaker 16: Who then were themselves beat by the hillbilly Macedonians, showing that hillbilly style always beats all other styles. , Also fun fact, , of my genetic chart, the place where my ancestry, if you go to the pre-English part of my ancestry, it traces back from Macedon[00:48:38] Simone Collins: Anyway well, and yeah, and I guess gay romance was kind of a thing throughout ancient Greece and Rome.[00:48:43] Never mind. Totally, I went ... Oh, God, and then, like, never mind. Yeah. Pervasive. Never mind. Totally wrong. It’s, the world has been gay for all of history. Oh, God, yeah. Sorry I know.[00:48:51] Malcolm Collins: CR episodes do gays destroy civilization, where we go over this. Like, where, where do we actually see gays in history? When do we see gays in history, and does it precede civilizational collapse?[00:49:00] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:49:00] Malcolm Collins: Basically we find it, it doesn’t appear to.[00:49:03] Simone Collins: Yeah. But there is evidence from, because this is the point at which it’s illegal, court records, witness testimonies, moralizing tracts that, that indicate the presence of active male queer communities in cities like Florence, and this helped cement the idea that this was a more tolerant area.[00:49:25] I mean, it’s kind of ironic, right? ‘Cause they’re like, “No, don’t do it. Stop.” But, but you know, they, they kept doing it. And then by the 17th century, because phrases like the Italian vice became kind of like a, a shorthand[00:49:38] Malcolm Collins: for gay- So gayness was the Italian vice, sleeping around was the French vice, and BDSM was the English vice[00:49:43] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. I’m gonna get to, to the UK next Okay but yeah because the Italian vice was shorthand for gay stuff then people would start to go to Italy for their gay romespringa. Tourists would, even i- in the early 1800s, sort of revive and spread this stereotype because they were both fascinated and scandalized by this reputation and they, they wanted to check it out and maybe- They’d be[00:50:11] Malcolm Collins: like, “Ooh, oh, the gay, early gay, proto-gay bars and stuff.”[00:50:15] Simone Collins: It kind of was, yeah. It’s like the Cape Cod, Fire Island, Provincetown of of Europe, you know? The,[00:50:21] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So being born in Fire Island definitely made[00:50:23] Simone Collins: you a little bit gay ... the gay, kinky boot of Europe. Yeah Yes. It’s, it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. So yeah, I, I thi- I didn’t know that that, it was like a, sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy thing.[00:50:32] Although of course the, the court records show that it was a thing they were trying to stop. Now, the English vice is super interesting because first, England was super known for being very puritanical and c- sex negative, and not, not very interesting when it came to sexual relations.[00:50:48] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay.[00:50:49] Simone Collins: But then I think part- partly because it was so dour and puritan and sexually repressed and a bunch of sanctimonious proto-Karens freaked out when people did do slightly kinky things, that it then developed this reputation for flagellation, which then evolved into our understanding of, like, BDSM, because there were commentators, like, trying to say, “Don’t do this,” and people, like, criminalizing it.[00:51:20] Do, wait,[00:51:20] Malcolm Collins: wait, what do we, what do we not do? What, where, where, where is the video I’m not supposed to look at?[00:51:26] Simone Collins: What video?[00:51:27] Malcolm Collins: That’s a joke. When you’re describing a video or something like that, it’s like, oh- Oh ... oh.[00:51:32] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.[00:51:33] Malcolm Collins: Where’s the... Do you... I, I definitely won’t look at that video. Can you just give me the URL for it?[00:51:38] You know the joke. Come on.[00:51:40] Simone Collins: Oh, no, I, I don’t. Maybe it’s a not girl thing. But anyway. Lee[00:51:46] Malcolm Collins: would get it. Lee- my, my bros would get it. You’re just too-[00:51:50] Simone Collins: I am, I am an old... I’m a s- I have the soul of a 62-year-old woman who’s probably not that online. But anyway basically around the 19th [00:52:00] century especially, English pu- public culture became super moralizing, and there were all these laws against male same-sex acts.[00:52:09] And this made Britain a focal point for debates about homosexuality, which is also sometimes seen as the British vice, along with flagellation. And then in that climate, continental commentators would talk about the English vice, refer to specific behaviors, either flagellation or same-sex relations. Because it was, it was more prevalent in, like, a sex work context or in people getting caught and in big trouble for it.[00:52:39] And it kind of happened in a way... It was, like, late onset Italian vice. So Italy really got the brunt of the same-sex reputation, and what really stuck with the UK was the BDSM stuff.[00:52:51] Malcolm Collins: That is not what I’ve heard about how the UK got the BDSM stuff.[00:52:55] Simone Collins: Oh, maybe I was reading the wrong sources. So- So what did you get?[00:52:59] Malcolm Collins: I heard that it came from British private schools that used flogging as a, a punishment mechanism.[00:53:06] Simone Collins: Mm.[00:53:06] There’s this one book that’s called The English Vice that is a picture of a schoolteacher, a male schoolteacher who’s short and stout and has something of a whip. I mean, maybe it was... it came from this rep- I haven’t read the book.[00:53:21] I, I did not read an entire book for this one episode. I’m so sorry. But like- But[00:53:24] Malcolm Collins: apparently, what would happen is the kids would go and do it to each other.[00:53:29] Simone Collins: Oh. Bless them.[00:53:30] Malcolm Collins: Like, that’s, that’s where, like, they’d be like, “Oh, this is kinda kinky,” or whatever. And then it, like, took off as, like, a thing that people would do.[00:53:40] I mean- I think, you know, BDSM and other things- Well, yeah, I mean,[00:53:43] Simone Collins: school paddles were super pervasive. Corporal punishment was extremely pervasive in British schools. So it maybe it’s also that because that form of corporal punishment, especially things like the paddle, were very, very common in British schools, that more people learned they were into it, right?[00:54:02] Like Aella writes in her, on her Substack about how, like, she didn’t think she was that into sex, and then experienced for the first time some forms of, like, BDSM and was like, “Oh my God.” And maybe the thing is, like, in the rest of Europe, there may not have been this exact type of corporal punishment, like being spanked with a paddle or something in the same kind of context.[00:54:24] Also public humiliation, right? So it could just be that certain forms of attempted puritanical punishment in the UK Awoken sexually, a, a bunch of people who if not exposed to that would never have known that it would cause such satisfaction.[00:54:41] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:54:42] Simone Collins: Mm, that makes sense. The rest is not that interesting.[00:54:45] The Muslims were seen as fanatical warriors, basically. They were, like, sexually threatening and religiously dangerous, and you kind of admired them for their courage but you feared them as these enemies of Christiandom. So they were kind of just, like, the big, scary, bad other. Yeah. And Northern Europeans, again, like, sort of barbaric, dull workhorses, not very smart.[00:55:08] And then in contrast, Southerners were seen as very indulgent drama queens. What’s super interesting to me is that this even falls into a microcosm- microcosmic context with places like Italy. Like, within Italy, Northern Italians were seen as industrious but, like, socially cold, and Southerners were seen as lazy and emotional.[00:55:35] Malcolm Collins: Ooh ...[00:55:36] Simone Collins: and yet, like, throughout the rest of Europe also, Northerners were seen as, like, these workers who were kind of, like, boring and stern, and, like, anyone south was seen as, like, oh, like, ooh, so emotional and- ... kinda lazy.[00:55:50] Speaker 20: What’s ironic to me is that this is still portrayed even in my Korean Mawa books, , which shows how cross-cultural it is that you always [00:56:00] have the archetype of the Duke of the North who’s super cold and competent and warlike, and then the Duke of the South who’s often very,[00:56:08] charismatic, , likable, , geniable, funny, , outgoing. , And of course, my favorite is the Duke of the North. That’s why I always have myself drawn that way[00:56:19] Simone Collins: And it’s very interesting to me that, I mean, we have the, I think we have some, done some different episodes about the role that heat and cold play in civilizational development, and that, I mean, clearly if you live in a very cold climate, the, only the conscientious people will survive because only the conscientious people will have built shelters and food supplies that can get them through an extremely cold and frozen winter where no food grows.[00:56:45] And in Southern cultures, you’re more likely to see some maybe more charismatic but indolent people make it through genetic choke holds because they don’t depend so much on delayed gratification and preparation and- Mm ... building in order to survive, because it’s not going to become a frozen tundra for, like, four months out of the year.[00:57:07] So I found that- Yeah ... interesting in that the stereotypes would play out that way. But that[00:57:12] Malcolm Collins: is[00:57:13] Simone Collins: just what[00:57:13] Malcolm Collins: I found. A Russian, if you wanna do Ru- ancient Russian stereotypes, they were seen as incredibly backwards and animalistic. But they also got their butts whipped by, like, every horde that came through their country in, like, really brutalistic ways.[00:57:25] Like the famous case where they, they put a bunch of people under a table and had a feast while crushing them.[00:57:31] Simone Collins: What? That’s horrible ...[00:57:32] Malcolm Collins: th- this was the Mongols or the Huns or one of, one of these groups.[00:57:35] Simone Collins: Yeah, like- Oh, yeah. I didn’t, I didn’t even get into the Mongols. There, there is art of the Mongols being, you know, terrifying.[00:57:41] I feel like that’s something we don’t need to be enlightened on ‘cause we all know it, that they’d be scary.[00:57:46] Malcolm Collins: So we, we could do a whole other episode on the history of American interratia- racism, like the different groups and how they hated each other.[00:57:52] Simone Collins: Yeah. That’d be really fun. If this episode does well and y’all like it, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll get into...[00:57:55] Yeah.[00:57:56] Malcolm Collins: Da, da, da, da, da. Da, da, da, da, da. Da, da, da, da, da. And then, like, do a, a museum where it’s, like, a bunch of, like, Jemi- Aunt Jemimas and stuff like that. Oh,[00:58:06] Simone Collins: my God. Like the- Right? In the Aunt Jemima restaurant. Was it called the Aunt Jemima restaurant, or was it called something else?[00:58:11] Malcolm Collins: Something like that.[00:58:12] Yeah,[00:58:12] Simone Collins: well- I mean, even we had Aunt Jemima syrup. And even I watched, like, Shirley Temple movies where it was like there was some token uncle figure who would, like, sing and dance and just be... It’s so weird. It’s so weird. Yeah, that could be an interesting episode. But also probably gonna get this channel in big trouble, so I don’t know.[00:58:35] I don’t know. No, I don’t[00:58:36] Malcolm Collins: think... I don’t... I mean, we’ll focus mostly on non-discriminated groups in a modern context.[00:58:42] Simone Collins: Well, we just we were declared[00:58:44] racists by our own child.[00:58:47] Malcolm Collins: W- yeah, he said that we raise him, so we’re racists.[00:58:53] Simone Collins: I love that. I love that so much. “What does racism mean, Octavian?” Well, raise. Raise. You raised me. It’s people who raise.” We gotta take that. We gotta take it, yes.[00:59:07] Malcolm Collins: Yes.[00:59:07] Simone Collins: Oh.[00:59:08] Okay, well, I love you. I’m going to go make you pumpkin... No. Yeah, pumpkin curry with bok choy.[00:59:15] Malcolm Collins: With bok choy I think would be great. And you can put it on top of, yeah, whatever[00:59:21] Simone Collins: Do you really want fries or do you really want, well, with bok choy, well, with b- with ri- with bok choy I think you want rice to s- soak up the curry[00:59:29] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I think rice would be the right thing with bok choy. And[00:59:31] Simone Collins: I, and I’m- And I’m just gonna stir-fry the bok choy with the curry, like, the last, like, 30 seconds, right? I don’t wanna cook it that much, right?[00:59:39] You just want- Yeah,[00:59:39] Malcolm Collins: you don’t, you don’t cook the bok choy that long. Okay. All righty. And you might wanna put in a little bit of, like, oyster sauce or something with this so that the, the bok choy works a bit better.[00:59:47] Simone Collins: With the pumpkin curry?[00:59:48] Malcolm Collins: Yes.[00:59:49] Simone Collins: Sure. Let’s do it. Anything else aside from oyst- oyster sauce?[00:59:52] Do you want hoisin sauce as well with, for a little sweetness? I guess the pumpkin brings so much sweet you don’t really need it.[00:59:56] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you don’t really need that.[00:59:58] Simone Collins: So just oyster sauce. Okay. [01:00:00] We’re on. All right,[01:00:01] Malcolm Collins: love you.[01:00:02] Simone Collins: I love you too.[01:00:03] Malcolm Collins: Bye.[01:00:05] Simone Collins: Bye.[01:00:06] Just so you know, Malcolm is surrounded by empty cans, dirty clothes. It’s, it’s like the trash pit in, from Star Wars, quite literally. That’s what I feel like every time I wade into to try to, like, deliver him-[01:00:18] Malcolm Collins: That’s why[01:00:19] Simone Collins: I hoard, Simone- ... a drink or a smoothie ...[01:00:20] Malcolm Collins: so[01:00:20] Simone Collins: I can bring it[01:00:21] Malcolm Collins: back ...[01:00:21] Simone Collins: and so when Malcolm discovered that his mic stand is not compatible with his heavy, super expensive mic that y’all made us get, thanks, hope you like the sound of it all he decided to counterweight it by taping a Coke can to his mic stand.[01:00:39] And that’s, it, it’s a look. It, it’s a very, I would say, cohesive aesthetic. Any interior decorator, I think, would come to appreciate it.[01:00:48] Malcolm Collins: I hate you so much, Simone.[01:00:50] Simone Collins: When, when Malcolm’s camera goes to full landscape mode, suddenly this short angle of his room disappears, and you can see the trash from like- This[01:01:00] Malcolm Collins: is a problem for, like, interviews and stuff, because literally-[01:01:03] Simone Collins: It is yes.[01:01:04] Yeah, yeah.[01:01:05] No, God, don’t... No, don’t do it. Oh, why did you do... Don’t. Don’t. Go back, go back. Jump scare. Oh, God. Why did you do that? Why did they need to see that? I’m[01:01:18] Malcolm Collins: not like Jordan Peterson. I never told anyone to make their bed, okay?[01:01:22] Simone Collins: Your bed is impossible to make. I was like- There’s no making[01:01:24] Malcolm Collins: it ... live, live in a pigsty.[01:01:26] I don’t care. I, like presumably it does make you marginally more efficient for some people, but it doesn’t for me. Like I, you know, and, and, and people are different, right? Like, you know, some people are better with order. Some people are better with chaos.[01:01:38] Simone Collins: Yeah.[01:01:39] Malcolm Collins: I[01:01:39] Simone Collins: prefer- This, this, this is the, the not Malcolm bedroom.[01:01:42] The, it looks weird because Tech sleeps on the bed with me, and there’s pillows there to keep him from falling off ‘cause he decides to go on a journey every night. He dreams of going to Mordor, throwing in the ring, but it really involves a lot of kicking and crawling around. So, I will kick us off. Oh, for dinner tonight, I mean, we have the nice salami.[01:02:02] Do you want me to do something with that?[01:02:04] Malcolm Collins: Oh, I like the nice salami. Mm-hmm. Okay, so if I was gonna do something with nice salami, I would eat it on toast.[01:02:15] Simone Collins: Would you?[01:02:17] Malcolm Collins: Oh.[01:02:17] Simone Collins: You want nice salami and grilled cheese, just like to cut- I have a[01:02:19] Malcolm Collins: great idea. Garlic bread. Cheesy garlic bread[01:02:24] Speaker 21: A few final side notes for RFAB. , If you downloaded the image viewing app, which auto-sizes images for your screen, we now have that for both Apple and PC, and I have made significant, if you downloaded it anytime before, like yesterday, improvements in stability and features on it. So re-download that.[01:02:42] You can find it on either our image generation page or our not safe for work image search page, which conglomerates the searches of all not safe for work search engines. , The other thing is I have recently added, , or will be added shortly after this video goes live, a model that China put out, which is beating the one that Anthropic had to take down by order of the US government on coding stuff.[01:03:04] So if you’re using our vibe coding system, , we have , a model that is equivalent to Anthropic Fable, , which is exciting[01:03:12] Speaker 18: you guys gonna have a battle? You’re gonna have the ultimate battle?[01:03:15] Speaker 19: Yeah. Yeah. I would take a battle if I had a different gun.[01:03:20] Speaker 18: A different gun. No. What’s wrong with that gun? I can find a new[01:03:22] Speaker 19: one. I need to find a new one.[01:03:24] Speaker 18: You do? Oh, no. All right, should I get the water out? You guys ready? Okay, so he’s gonna go to his gun wardrobe.[01:03:35] Yeah, you want me to open it up for you?[01:03:38] Speaker 19: Yeah.[01:03:38] Speaker 18: Okay. That’s what I want. I’ll get it This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe