Well, first off, welcome everyone to another session of Second Growth Live. I am Trianna Mills. I'm our VP of Creative here at Refine Labs. And here joining me are two of my awesome co-hosts, Brianna and Devon.
And today we're going to dive into the secret behind innovative creative. And we want to talk about some tips that we can give you so that you can make your creative innovative as well. But before we do that, I would love for Devon and Brianna to introduce themselves and see what their role here is at Refine Labs. Okay, hi guys.
I'm Devon. I am a lead designer here at Refine Labs. I've been here for a little over a year. I'm super excited to be joining this podcast and talking to you all.
I'll pass it on to Brianna. Hi there. I'm Brianna. I'm a lead copywriter at Refine Labs.
I've been here just about a year almost. We're getting very, very close to it, which is very exciting. And I'm really looking forward to digging into this conversation and talking creative. Yay.
Well, thank you for those introductions. Let's dive right in. I feel like we can't start this discussion without this first question. And that is in your eyes, what is innovative creative?
And Brianna, I'll pass it to you first to start off. So to me, innovative creative, I mean, the easy answer is anything that's outside the box, right? So it's anything that's kind of pushing beyond the expectations for either an industry or a market, or even just a type of ad you might see. Some of the most successful ads that we start to see as trendsetters are usually breaking a mold, right?
We're usually seeing something that traditionally industry A has been doing X and now this newcomers come in and they're disrupting. That's the big conversation. But for me, innovative creative is really just whatever catches your attention. And it's capturing your audience.
It's capturing the market and it's connecting with them. And if you are approaching it in a way that is unique to your brand and unique to your industry, then you've really kind of checked all the boxes in my eyes. Love that. And how about you, Devon?
What's innovative creative to you? Yeah, I mean, I think Brianna did a great job hitting it out there. And I think the short answer, yeah, is it something that's out of the box. But I think sometimes as creatives, we tend to try to want to think of something that's never been thought of before.
And that's where you can kind of get yourself into a trap. Almost everything's been thought of before. It's just trying to think of what you see in your space and what can you do differently. I'm based in Dallas.
So I'm thinking of a local Dallas brand that's gone national Poo-Per-E and their marketing insane because they took this idea of this essentially bathroom spray and made it very refined, made it thinking about it in the Poo-Per-E in a very refined and high-scale way. So just thinking about your brand, thinking about it in a brand and thinking about it in a different lens in itself can be innovative. You don't have to discover something new, but just think outside of what you already know. And that in itself can produce really interesting eye-catching talk about creative.
I think that was a great example, Devon. First of all, I love all of their commercials. They're hilarious. But also it's a great example of embracing something that is different, not doing something that is the norm.
Those are things that I think about when I think about innovative creatives. It's like getting outside of yourself and thinking of new ways to do things. Also not following trends and being the one that sets them. You want to make things that are timeless and you look back at it and you're like, wow, this is still a great ad.
Those are the things that I think about when I think about innovative creative. And it goes into our next topic of things to embrace. So when you think about innovative creative and you're talking to a B2B company, what are some things that you think they should be embracing when they're developing their creative? Brianna, you want me to kick this one off?
You go first, I want you to answer. I'm actually thinking of a client that the two of us worked on together. And I think a big thing that when you're in a B2B SaaS space is a lot of times you're dealing with more serious subject matter. Your SaaS space is solving a more serious problem.
And so we've had clients who tell us like, oh, no, our ads have to be very serious or ads have to be, no one's smiling and they have to have this no pun language, no play on words, nothing. It has to be very, very serious. And while your subject matter is serious, I mean, I can go back to the briefer example of you take something that is not very refined and you make it refined. That in itself, that juxtaposition is interesting.
So if you take a serious subject matter and you make like a light play on words or you make something funny or you make something zany or weird with it, you really can stand out a little bit in your space. Otherwise, you're really pigeon pulling yourself to be just like the rest of the people in your market. So when you think about your brand, you think about your product, don't try to get too bogged down in how you think you should be perceived in that respect because perceiving yourself in something a little bit lighter, something a little bit more fun can be exactly what you need to get people to click on your ads. Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's a really great way to put it. And I do love the Pooper example, because I think they really execute well against this other idea of not being afraid to really look at your product or your brand very holistically and then look at the little bits involved inside of it or inside the story that other people are either not currently or not willing to talk about. Bathroom, not everybody's favorite topic, but by really leaning into that and making it playful and funny and leaning away from the whole, oh, this is a dirty little secret vibe. They've really kind of created a very niche spot in this kind of already existent market.
And so I think when you're looking at what to embrace as a B2B brand, first of all, at a baseline, I would say start to embrace B2B to see elements, start to embrace ways that they are looking at what they produce because they're looking at it from a lens of connecting with people. And that's what you need to embrace. Your audience is humans, lean into it, embrace it, love it. There are people just like you.
So I think that's one of the first steps to kind of embracing a new approach to a new angle on creative. I love all of those points. And to add to that, I think another thing that companies can embrace is other views and opinions and not getting stuck on the view that you have internally in the company of your product, but also thinking about how your customers are viewing it. Where are they calling certain things in your comments?
Are they referencing it the same way as you are on a day to day basis? How are they engaging with your ads? What is the consistent thing that you're seeing and how can you now introduce that into your new elements of your creative? So I think that's an area where a lot of B2B companies or companies in general get stuck.
And if they can get over that hump, they would really, really make some great creative. All right. So we've talked about what innovative creative is. We've talked about things to embrace and now we're ready to get started.
But we don't know where to start. What are some things that B2B companies can think about when they're starting creative to give themselves a great foundation and a good start? I think this kind of goes off of what we were just talking about because it is, I think you do need to start a little bit reframing and you need to start a little bit from inside the box in order to step out of it. So you need to look at what's there and then you need to look at how you can step outside of it, look at it differently, how you can kind of take a new approach to it.
An interesting question that I like to ask clients that might not sound immediately relevant, but it ends up yielding awesome results is why do you like working for this company or why do you like this product? You as an individual, the employee there and all of a sudden you're getting a conversation started looking at this from a completely different angle, right? And even though that might not be the angle you ultimately use, it's starting to open the doors to step outside the box. So I do think you should start with where you are and then think about what questions you can ask to introduce new perspectives, new ideas, new conversation basically.
Love that. I love the, I love what you said, Brianna, about how you have to kind of start inside the box in order to step out to the box. I mean, you don't know how to innovate if you don't know what's already out there. A big thing, a huge thing when it comes to the design process for me is I love looking at what's already in the space because then that's how you know to actually disrupt the space, but you don't know how to disrupt the space if you don't know what's in the space.
So coming from a more informed viewpoint of what's in your market, what are your competitors doing, and then even outside of your competitors, what is B2B doing, what is B2C doing, what is, what are they doing on different platforms, like look anywhere, like research will be your biggest friends. Like if you spend, I'm a big huge advocate for research heavy and then design last. So my research process might take, I don't know, four hours in my design process might take a one hour, like having a ratio of really research heavy, I think can really help you out when it comes to creating something that isn't seen in the space, creating something that feels more unique, that doesn't feel like something that someone is scrolling past every single day. So I think that that research part is so important, and I don't feel like we can continue with talking about what our starting point is here, which is our creative analysis.
And there's a lot of research that goes into that, researching our, the customer's competitors and what they're doing well and what they're not doing well, and then also taking their ads and looking at them that they've produced before, working with us and saying, hey, this is really working, but this isn't. Can you talk about how the creative analysis has really helped you when you're starting a project and also made better relationships with the customers? I would love to hear Brianna say this, because one of the biggest things I see whenever I'm doing a creative analysis is a lot of times I see people in a space, well, maybe we'll have design elements or the highlights in top photography, but they will have no headlines, no copyrighting headlines whatsoever. And then the post copy is like, here is our product, we'll get demo with us.
Look at these white pages, like that is, that is all the copy. So I think I would be really curious to see from a copy rating standpoint with Brianna says about this. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I do think that one of the elements of the creative analysis is looking at whether or not a brand has a story or a position and not a rebrand already does, they don't all come to us with one, and then also looking at whether that's actually the story or position that they should be taking. And then also looking at is what they're putting out into the world reflecting what they want to be seen as.
So that's always a big one. When I look at it, I look at a brand and I look at who they identify themselves as and other brand guidelines and all of that stuff. And then I look at, okay, well, what is the distance between this and your creative that you're putting out in the world? And then I also look at what are your competitors doing?
What are other people in the space doing? And then I always look completely outside the space. So my creative analysis is, I think it's going step by step through each of those things. And when I talk about like the distance between who you are and who you think you are and what your customers are seeing and what they think you are, the creative analysis is a great way to start closing that gap, because you can start looking at it and you can start looking at it critically and you can start looking at it with a perspective that's intent on driving these things to be more close and more unified.
And that's also how you can get to your innovation or your unique angle. If you realize who you are and who you're putting out there yourself as, and they're not the same, that's a good place to start looking at how to reformat your messaging, which is a whole other piece of it, as Devin was saying. But the story and the messaging and the headlines, I think a lot of brands and products and B2B companies leave out that significant piece of it. They think that stating a feature or stating the product name is clear enough and bold enough.
And if you put it in a pretty design, it's going to be fantastic. That's not the entire story. When you analyze the creative approach from an existing brand and you compare them to competitors, you can often start to see what pitfalls most of the industry is making in a messaging standpoint, and usually it comes from exactly what we've been talking about, kind of just doing what everyone else is doing, not really digging into your own little area. So I'm also on the research heavy.
So I have gone down rabbit holes with rabbit holes with rabbit holes, and I have found myself looking at like deep memes for an industry that I truly don't understand. And I'm like reading it over and over again. And I'm like, they're telling something, they're saying something, they're doing something. This is something that's relevant.
And I want to figure out how to incorporate it. So the creative analysis to me is immensely helpful. And it's just that extra critical lens. Yeah, I get a lot to say, don't let them all out.
No, one of the things that I've also noticed from all of you creating the creative analysis that it really gets the customer to start thinking differently about things that they weren't thinking about before, like, hey, maybe this isn't the right tone that we're using with our customers or, oh, I never thought about incorporating these brand elements or changing these colors or maybe illustration will help us better rather than photography. So that's one of the things that I really love about our creative analysis as well. But before we continue, I want to get to some of these questions that are in our comments. And one of them is, are there any B2B brands that you feel like are doing really well?
And I would also say V2C because we said we should be looking at them too for inspiration. So there's a few in the V2C space. There's definitely more that come to mind of like interesting V2C stuff. I already mentioned Pooperi, but I really, really love like this.
I think this is me on these. It's like just an underwear brand and they're everywhere. The one thing I also love about them is their own podcast, they're all through all platforms. They hit it, they hit from an emotional side of like, we are size inclusive.
We're not restrictive in all this. And then from a silly side, because I do know there's another comment talking about should we go emotional or funny? And then also from a silly side of just playing it's underwear. It's underwear brand type of thing.
So that's a B2C, but a good B2B brand. I think that was a little bit harder to think. I know from a branding perspective, I think HubSpot does really great with their branding. And I think they're very im catching with their imagery.
So as a designer, I'm obviously really more inclined to look at from a look standpoint. But I'd be interested, Brianna, to know what do you think from a copy standpoint? So I think, first of all, the pause before the answer says a lot. So who's going to be to be?
I think it's very hard to find because it's not a space right now carved out with a strong innovative trend. But obviously, there's lots of people both interested in changing it and actively changing it. I think a B2B brand that does a good job is slack. Slack does a good job with their messaging, with their design, and with their consistency throughout.
When you see something that's related to slack, you know what it is. You know what they're doing, you know who you're interacting with. And I think they do a nice job of putting their benefits first. They often do frame things from that angle.
So I think slack does a pretty good job. Not a lot. I think that if they worked with us, they could be even better. But I do think that, you know, there are a lot of brands out there that are doing some really good stuff.
And then there are brands that are, you know, whether they're executing across the board fantastically or whether they're executing one piece fantastically, those are different things. So, you know, Salesforce has a strong brand. They have those little characters and things like that. They have recognizable elements of their brand.
That's something you're doing right. If somebody can identify something, and if you took your logo off and they know who it is, you've done something right with your branding and with your direction. And I think from a messaging perspective, you know, it's putting your benefits forward. And if you see a company doing that, if you see a B2B business that's highlighting their benefits before their features, that's one box.
You get this brand is doing something right. Let me look closer. Let me see what I can replicate. Let me see what's going on here.
That's kind of contributed to this. So that's what I would say. I love those examples. When I also think about is Monday.com.
I love their B2B ads because they really tap into not focusing so much on their features, but the value that their features bring to their customers. Like, is this going to make your project managers day shorter? Are they going to be able to be in less meetings? You know, really tapping into that emotional side is something that I love about their ads.
So I think those were all great examples. All right. So let's continue. I think we're kind of like going into this topic anyway.
And when you both are creating ads and you're thinking about all of these new things to do and incorporate, what are the key things that you always think about implementing into the creative to make it innovative, no matter who the customer is? So I feel like, okay, aside from innovation, I think I think a big thing is like, yeah, let's make this like so out of the box and some interesting. I want to talk to you before. I think the biggest thing I focus on first, because no matter how innovative or creative your ideas, if the copy isn't clear, if the imagery isn't clear, if the logo isn't clear, like that's, I really come out from more of a, just a practical sense first, because I think when I was an earlier designer, I used to just be like, no, it's all about ideas, all about concept.
If your concept is important, if your concept is interesting, if your design is really eye-catching, that's all that matters. But you can have a really beautiful design, but the messaging is not clear at all. And it's just like, what does this add even saying? It looks beautiful, but what is it saying?
So I think innovation is great. And that's obviously we're talking about something to strike for, but I also think once you've created something and you're like, yes, I love this, I think this will do wellness space, show it to someone completely out of your industry and say it to see if they can even tell you what the subject matter that that is. I think, you know, it goes crazy, goes wild as you want, and then go back to focusing it, focus the ad 100%, would be my big thing. I love that comment about clarity.
I mean, for me personally, obviously from a messaging perspective, clarity is important. And something that I always have to balance is telling a clear story, sending a clear message while also maintaining something that is connected and emotive and all of those things that you want an ad to be. So that's kind of also how I start to look at it. I've already spoke a bunch of times, I've said several times the benefits angle.
And so that's really where I like to start, because often you'll get a list of features and you'll get a list of things and situations when to use something and all of those great facts about a product or a brand, but you won't get the benefit. You won't get the thing that they do to make somebody want to use them and everything has a benefit. Everything has a benefit. It doesn't matter what it is like a water bottle is benefit is you can take water with you physically.
That's a benefit. And what does that alleviate for you? That alleviates having to buy one, having to find water, being thirsty in the middle of a park. There are tons and tons of benefits.
And I think that's kind of what I start with is, okay, these are features, these are facts where are the benefits, what's to gain? And then how do we inject emotion into this story? And it's typically by going toward the benefits. It's typically by figuring out what emotive response happens when you tap into that benefit.
So it's kind of a line between how do we make somebody feel something when they see this, but then also make them understand what it is that's going to make them feel that way. So clarity is a great point of clarity. I also think for me, it's kind of digging into some of the things that people say about a brand, whether it's a customer testimonial, whether it's a review, whether it's the people themselves to find the right words. And, you know, often a mission statement and the way somebody describes a brand are totally different, totally different things.
And they're both equally important. So when I'm trying to start the engine on innovative creative, the tip I would give people is like flip everything you think on its head. If you're looking at your brand and you're looking at your product and you're thinking all the great features and all the awesome bells and whistles start to flip each and every one of them. Okay, what does that bell or whistle contribute?
What does it produce? What does somebody at the end of the line going to feel or think when they receive this feature and they get the benefit of it? And then the like, you know, next year up on that is how do you transform that benefit into a feeling and how you connect that feeling with your story. So that's kind of where I start when I look at these things.
And yeah, I love showing them to people outside of myself and my team because there's no way to know if it's great, if somebody else doesn't see it, which also I think speaks to the design copy relationship. Like I love showing designers my work. If you are writing copy, show it to a designer. I'm very serious.
Write your copy, show it to a designer because it needs to be something that not only works outside of a copywriter or messaging focused brain, but it needs to be something that can actually be brought to life and look good visually. You can't have one without the other. You can have a great ad, it doesn't have both awesome copy and awesome design. They need to be best friends.
So that's kind of, you know, I do try to think visually, but I'm also always happy to tag a designer and be like, tell me what you see when you look at this. Do you get something? Is there anywhere we can go? So that's I think some good places to start.
I think those are such great points. And I feel like two of the things that I always think about are two things from our creative philosophy, which is be memorable and effective. And I think a lot of times that effective part gets lost and also keep your core story top of mind. And a lot of times that gets lost in general, thinking about all of the ways you can promote yourself.
And when you just think about what is the core story? What is the core point I'm trying to get across? That's when you really become innovative and you also become very clear. Steve, I think you have your hand raised.
Do you want to come on and ask us a question? Sure. What's your question for us? So I actually asked the question in the comments around understanding the difference between when we use funny ads and then more, you know, I don't want to say said because that's the wrong point, but more emotive because when I look at, you know, I think if we look at all the brands that were mentioned before between Monday, Slack, all of them are kind of going for this humor angle and you see it on the B2C side as well.
Everyone's trying to go funny. And then I kind of look at the automotive segment where they're really not going funny at all. I wouldn't say they're going said, but they're not pushing this anything. I think they still stand out.
I think they're revenue that you see from the automotive segment specifically forward is still there. So are we kind of over reaching by trying to go funny all the time and actually losing that breakthrough that we're trying to get to because everyone's trying to be funny? And as a result, it just comes off as trying too hard. Yes, that is an awesome question.
So I think that falls back into following the trends instead of setting them like we were saying before. And if everyone's being funny, that doesn't mean that you have to be funny, right? It's what is your customer or your target audience? Like what is the tone that they are more geared towards?
And then how do you tap more into that and be more creative that way? I think that's the biggest mistake that companies or brands can make is when they just follow trends and they're like, well, everyone's being funny. I guess that should be funny too. It's like, no, what does your customer want from you and how can we build off of that?
So I think that was a great question. And I'll let Devin and Brianna add to that if they have anything else too. Yeah, I don't know if there's necessarily a right or wrong answer to that. I think, you know, you could go either way, think of your commercials.
I thought it was immediately went into my mind. You know, you have the coolers, light, love training where everyone's like partying, you know, type of thing, but then you have the Budweiser puppy trying to return home the like the tear jerking beer commercials. And so same product, both beer, but you go two completely different ways with it. And I think that's the thing is when you come up with your brand story, neither are wrong.
It's just what do you want? What do you think you're what is the audience looking for? Where's there a space for it? If everyone's being funny in your space, then don't be.
But if everyone's being serious in your space, then don't be, you know, so I think it's more just the research of what's going around and then trying to find a different approach. So I think funny is a great way to go. And I think serious, more emotive and pathic is a great way to go. But what is your space doing and how can you do it differently?
Yeah, I mean, I think all of that's great. And I also really love that you identify the automotive industry because our puppy team internally here actually speaks about that as a lot as being like very, very analogous to B2B. Because it's a big purchase, you do not make it the first time you see an ad, you are not going to go run out. It's not like a pair of shoes, you're not seeing a Ford ad of being one of my truck today.
It's much more similar to how people adopt and purchase B2B products. So I think one of the things that that industry does well, that kind of goes back to some other statements I made earlier about what is who are you to your audience? Do they actually want you to be funny ever? I mean, we've all seen those kind of cringy commercials sometimes where somebody is equating two things that nobody wants together, like a really sad, sad, weepy, credit card commercials.
Like that's something that's a miscee, yes, you're creating a feeling, yes, it might be memorable. But is that really something that's actually authentic to your brand? So knowing when to go funnier, when to go emotional is obviously everything Devin said completely spot on. But it's also about who are you to your brand?
What do they want from you? And also where are you talking to them? When why? How?
So the medium matters as well. So you know, Super Bowl commercials are notoriously funny, notoriously goofy over the top, they're big budget, big spend, and then you know, sometimes other types of ads can be a little quieter, a little smaller, they can have a different angle on it. But I would say the way to kind of get around this is to look at something, look at what it's producing, and then figure out how you can get there. Like, okay, if Mondays, most successful ads are funny, they're producing joy.
That's the feeling. It's joy. People are feeling that when they see the ad. If you want to replicate that, but not go funny, how do you produce that?
How do you produce joy? You can go sentimental, you can go very authentic. You can even go just relief. And so there's a lot of ways in to attacking and attaching yourself to the same feelings and the same outcomes without necessarily taking the exact same trend every other person does.
So yeah, I think it's subjective to brand, but there's a lot of things that can influence that. And I think, you know, looking at where your brand is and who they are is a great way to understand, should I even be funny? Those are really great points. And I feel like it goes into our next topic, which is research.
And that is a stage that is heavily skipped at B2B companies and B2C companies. And I think that that's why we fall into what you were talking about Steve about, not really knowing what to do, whether to be funny or not be funny, because we completely skipped that research fees. And so Brandon, Devon, I would love to know what are some core things that go into your research stage before you start any creative? Yeah, I mean, me, it's a lot of interviewing, I would call it.
So I like to talk to the clients and the stakeholders. And even if you're internal, even if you're trying to pull this off internally as a company, you should be talking to other people in your business, other branches, sales people, marketing people, product developers, you should be talking to different people to understand different angles and get every stream of information you can possibly have. And I'm the type of person where I collect it all. I collect every drop of it.
I just, I have documents and documents. They're so upsetting to anyone who likes organization because they are utterly chaotic and I apologize for it. But nobody needs to see them but me. But they're my research notes.
I take notes. I study. I read before I write any copy. That's the most important part.
It's to get a deep understanding of what's going on here. What's out there. What can I do. Where can I find something that I can activate on or play into or anything like that.
So for me as a writer, it's those first person accounts, testimonials, interviews. And then it's also the other layer of looking at what is current and whether or not you want to be current. So there's also just sometimes topical moments, certain things going on that you may or may not want to acknowledge. That's also something to incorporate.
It may be that you need to severely avoid something that you thought would be a great idea because something has just happened and you need to stay away. So there's a lot of research and I think it is constant. But I am a measure twice cut one's person and research is the best way to do that. Get it all up front, have it all dig into it and then you can start to really think through what you want to say.
Yes, I totally agree with that. Devan, anything else you wanted to add to that statement? Yeah, I guess just from like a visual perspective, if I'm looking purely at design, the only thing I do, I kind of the model I follow is I start in and then go out. So I always start at the brand.
I look at your website, I look at your social media, I look at all deliverables you hand to me, I want to see what your brand is, what that look and feel is. Then I go to your competitors, I go to other people in the space and then I go out even further to, you know, B2C companies. And then I go to album covers and then movie collateral. And then, you know, like it goes crazy, it goes like, it goes like, to the point where I'm so far outside of B2B to see even advertising to get design inspiration.
And then once I've collected what I like, I create what I have, I then go right back to that core and make sure that even though I've, you know, expanded my research so far outside of what this industry is, and what this brand is that when I have my finished product, even though there's been a lot of research, there's been a lot of exploration, it still feels like that core center most that it still goes back to that brand we're trying to reach. I love that. One of the things that I know that I've really tried to do during my research stage is just ask questions, right? Like ask questions from different people.
If I sit down with a designer, what is their perspective on the subject matter versus someone who is maybe the product marketing manager? Or what is the perspective of the CEO or the CMO? Because we know they're all going to have different perspectives and we're going to be talking to them in different ways. And I feel like a lot of times that is skipped, it's not even thought about.
And if companies thought about that more, it would really, really make a difference in their creative and it wouldn't just be stuck in one mindset. So I think those were all great suggestions. So I have a fun exercise that I want to do. And I want us to look at some of the creative that isn't so innovative and talk through those and how they could be better.
So just give me a moment to share. We do have a question that we can answer in the meantime where it says how do we approach this as a very small team? Ooh, that's a good question. That is a great question.
And unfortunately that happens a lot, right? I feel like a lot of times I've been the only designer somewhere and I don't have a copywriter or you've been a copywriter, you don't have a designer. And I feel like that goes back again to that research stage. What are all the questions that you can ask to set yourself up for success that you may not have the answer to because this other person isn't there to make it easier for you to continue down this creative process?
Anything that you want to add to that, Devin and Brianna? Yeah, I think probably all of us have been balloon creative at some point in our career. And it is it's difficult because you start to feel siloed and you start to feel like you're in your own echo chamber with your own ideas. I think you can still open it up to people outside of a creative department to talk.
And in terms of like, how do you tackle this? How do you not get bogged down by all of this research and all of this execution and all of this stuff? It's remembering to create space for the actual ideation. So yes, you do all this research, of course, you need to do all of this research.
But you also need to create a protected space for the actual execution phase. Because for me, it's only after things have digested that I can really write something that is in a really land, in my opinion. So you're the lone little copywriter designer, the creative holding down the floor. I would say, cart out your space, make sure you have space to be able to think things through, to be able to do the research, to be able to kind of have an idea.
And sometimes things move way too fast. But I think, you know, do the best with what you have, do the best with the things available to you. And you know, you can still employ pieces of these strategies while you build out your team and you build out, you know, that kind of bigger awesome creative workforce. Love that.
All right. Well, let's get into some of this creative. We've selected three ads that we feel are not living up to their best potential. And they're all in three different categories.
So one category touches on a designer and copywriter, potentially not even speaking with each other. Another one touches on trends. And another one touches on one of the things that probably drives me crazy the most, just popping a screenshot of a product onto an ad. And so I would love for us to talk through this.
And we can start with this Adobe one, which is supposed to represent creatives, but it's not doing that great of a job here. One thing I will say is that when I look at this ad, I'm not even really sure what they're trying to communicate to me. And then it also seems like the copywriter was in a silo and the designer was in a silo, they had two different thoughts. And then at the end of the day, they brought them together and put them on this ad.
And unfortunately, that's something that happens a lot at companies. And when you have a great relationship between your copywriter and designer, it really does show. So those are a couple of things I wanted to point out there. But Brandon, what are some things that you see when you look at this first amazing ad?
Yeah, Devin, tell me about this design. Design wise, it's not my favorite, but I don't hate it. I think there's an idea there. You could do an interesting fun pie graph with like 3D elements.
You could do something like that that would be very visually appealing. I mean, I think that this ad may be just needed like an art director to look over it and maybe nudge it in a bit from a visual standpoint. And then you get to the copy, which has like nothing to relate. You don't see a clear relationship between it or at least the three of us didn't.
So, you know, there wasn't anything immediate right there. So it is, it's just about having a relationship between copy and design. Like as a designer, of course, I want everything to look beautiful and wonderful. And I want something that I think looks really cool from a design standpoint, but if it doesn't relate to the messaging whatsoever, then what's the point?
I just wasted my time, the copywriter just wasted their time. And now we have this incalive ad. Yeah, and I think, you know, for this piece, one of the things that's foundationally missing that we've talked about is quite frankly anything. There's no benefit here.
There's no emotion here. There's no even humor here like we spoke about. It's just this bold like bland statement. And I don't mean bland offensively.
Like, you know, this is a plain statement is what I mean. Just plain language, plain statement, which like, look, we love clarity that that can work sometimes. But in this context, because there's no delivery on this statement, it does not work. Total cost of ownership for Adobe commerce.
I think they're trying to deliver on that with that visual, but the visual has become so disconnected from that top line message that it's no longer delivering. So that's the value of kind of having copy and design together like that is that you want to deliver there maybe was a world where, you know, if these two groups are not siloed, if maybe they have more time to work on it, if they creatively collaborated where you could have built a beautiful visual that delivers on that statement. But that's not something that doesn't tell me anything. It doesn't deliver anything.
It doesn't make me want to think about it or make me want to engage with it or make me feel or know anything more than I did before I looked at this ad. And so, you know, I think that that's kind of unfortunately, this is which fall into the category of disconnected. And that's one of the problems. Yeah, I would say one other thing I would call out on this is usually what I see in the post copy is what couldn't be said in the imagery is try to it's made up for inside of the post copy.
And instead, I think that the post copy should just add to the story instead of trying to completely tell all of it. And that's something that a lot of companies run into. They try to fit so much into that post copy. And even here, it's it says get the full picture and it's not giving me the full picture.
So I just wanted to call that out as well. When we get to this one in the middle of the puppies, everyone says to put animals on an ad because everyone loves animals, everyone loves puppies. And that's great. But I think that here, this is an example of how this wasn't used properly.
We don't even have a headline here. The imagery of the puppy isn't really adding to any of the messaging here. And I'm left not really knowing what this is about anything else that when you look at this ad, do the both of you think about and you wish wasn't here or wish was added here. For me, I just joked with you guys about how I bet you this was A.B.
tested with this one with puppies and then there was another one with kittens and they were like the internet loves puppies and kittens let's just slap our logo on it and call it a day. I mean, I just think it's not very well thought out. There was no it was just like, this is popular on the internet. This is our logo, let's put it together and there wasn't any thought about how do we incorporate you can incorporate fun animal imagery into your brand.
It just has to be a tie in and there's just no tie in whatsoever. Yeah, I honestly could not for the life of me figure out what beyond just people like puppies was the insight back informed choosing that as the main image. But what's also missing is any type of story. There's actually no real headline.
There's a post headline. There's post copy. There's some stuff going on there, but the headline for the image is just the logo. And so there's no completion to the story.
Again, if we've talked about this, this is something that I think, you know, when you're looking at innovative creative, you have to look at creative holistically. It is not copy or design. It is not take some copy someone wrote and then later filter it down the line and give it to someone to design. It's what are these two things doing and saying together?
And so there's nothing being said because there's no copy on the image. There's nothing there. It's just puppies. And I'm like, great, I love you, but make a connection for me.
Like maybe they could have, maybe they could have done it, but there isn't anything there that's kind of telling a story or telling us why they put the puppies there in the first place. So I think, you know, it's hard to connect for me. I see packaging as a word. I see a box.
I not see much else. Yes, that I'm glad that we're going to be showing how we can do this properly in the next slide. But before we get there, this last one, which is one that I really thought we should put on here because it's something that we see so often put a headline, put a product shot there. And what bothers me the most about this is that anyone looking at this ad, they're going to see you this screenshot of the product, and it's not going to speak to them or tell them how it's going to make their day to day better or easier.
I feel like a better way to have executed this would be to talk about, hey, use our product because it's going to help make your day shorter or, hey, use our product because it's going to make it easier for you to have oversight over all of your clients. You know, there's so many things that this could have tapped into, but it didn't. It just felt very lazy, I guess you can say. When you look at this, are there any other things that you think about besides also that number four trying to represent the word for?
Yeah, I mean, to me, the biggest fault with that number four is that it's distracting and it doesn't fit anything else. Like this isn't designed in text speak or something like that. It's so out of context that it's distracting. And if something you're writing or doing is distracting, you should not do it.
It's not a good idea. And I think what's interesting here is that they've buried probably the most practical and, you know, effective piece of the copy in this bottom line here, set goals, assign people, track progress, celebrate success. That's what this is allowing you to do. That's the most informative piece of copy in this whole piece.
So project management for startups, great, that's what you are, but what does it allow you to do? And that's a good start. I mean, we always need to take that further. You need to turn it into a story and get some emotion, but that line is the most information and it's the most hidden.
It's the most tucked away. And that's to me, I would take that with that front and center at a baseline. It just just one fast way to clean this up would be take that informative piece and put it front and center. Don't hide it.
Yes. Keep your core story top of mind. Well, let's look at how things can be done better. So here we have an example of a mood board that we put together with animals because we do know that that works, but making sure that every part of it is cohesive, the messaging feels valuable.
And it's not just something that we threw together because we thought it may be fun. So you can see here from the headline to the CTA, everything is coming together. It's playful. It incorporates puns.
Hacks your plan is the CTA. And so I just really love this mood board. And I feel like this is a great example of how you should be thinking when you are thinking about innovative creative and how to think outside of the box, but also bring everything full circle. Anything that you want to add Devin and Brianna to this?
I mean, I think it speaks for itself. I think it does too. All right. Go ahead, Brianna.
I love it. I love the chickens. I love the play on words. It just makes me smile, but I still understand what they're trying to say.
And that's good. Yes. All right. Well, I think that was really fun.
Someone asked, how does a creator girl about pitching more creative slash entertaining ideas to a team that is more traditional? Have you ever ever tested these for the same customer? I think this is a really good question. I feel like we run into this a lot of times, especially with customers who focus on risk management specifically.
And that is when our creative analysis really, really, really helps us because we're able to break down so many different aspects of their creative and how they've been approaching it and ask them questions to get them going and think about things in different ways. So I would say, you know, start to build your own creative analysis and ask yourself, what are some of the questions that you think may come up from them that you can address before that meeting to have a more productive conversation? See if we have any more questions. Okay, we have a question from Sophie.
Any tips on how copy and design can work well together if you're working as a remote team? Ooh, I also see a lack of understanding of the end goal of the post. Who's responsibility is that to share? This is a question that comes up all the time.
I think that people get the idea that because we are remote, it's very hard for us to collaborate. And honestly, this is actually the first remote company that I've worked at. And I feel like I've collaborated with a team more than companies where I've actually been in the office. It's something about the fact that we are remote that forces us to collaborate more, which is so awesome.
I mean, we have tools that we set up that help us to do that. For example, the tool that we use as Figma where we can literally jump on a call inside of Figma and move things together in real time, which is amazing. Also, just being a really heavy user of Slack, right? Jumping on calls or just messaging each other, always keeping communication open.
So if there was any advice I would give is that, you know, just make sure that you keep communication open and that you're always willing to come up with new ideas to be able to communicate because you are a remote. It shouldn't be something that hinders you. For sure. I will say, like, specifically, I've had many a call with a copywriter and we've talked through things.
I've had many a call with my associate creative director and the copywriter and we've talked through things. I think, yeah, I think being remote kind of forces you to be over-communicative, over-collaborative because you don't, you're not in person. And I think, yeah, I've gotten the most collaboration out of reply mobs and I have any other company. And this is a pretty large creative team and we're all over the country.
Yeah. There's not a day that goes by where I'm not communicating with one of the copywriters I work with or one of the other designers or another associate creative director. And we're screenshotting things or sending things over and be like, hey, can you take a look at this? What do you think about this?
Do you want to jump on a quick call? From just quick little messages to full-on calls to one time I was making lunch in a copywriter, I was like, hey, I'm writing out something but I want to get your feedback. Can we talk? And like, we talked for like an hour and a half.
I was like making my lunch and we just talked about different ideas as he was writing copies. So yeah, I think there are ways to do it. You just have to kind of foster that sort of collaboration to make sure that, you know, your team members feel really encouraged to do that and they feel like it's okay for them to do it and it's great for them to do it. Because I do think there's a noticeable difference in creative when you do have a copywriter and a designer with just a really good working relationship.
This makes me think of another question that always comes up and is what comes first? Does copy come first? Does design come first? And I feel like it really depends on who you're working with, right?
Or it depends on what the subject matter is. I think that you should look at the project as a whole and decide what should come first. Not this is just how it goes, right? So can you think of some examples where, you know, design coming first was more beneficial or copywriting coming first was more beneficial?
I think I would usually say copy first almost always just because there, you know, there are times where it can just get a little messy the other way. But I do know sometimes when there's a concept that's decided like, okay, we're gonna have a con so one of our, one of our clients were doing a campaign for them and the concept was we wanted these headlines to be a text exchange and this is going to be like the idea behind this text exchange. So in that response, there is a design element that's coming first. So the copywriter has to know like, okay, this has to be like a text change, like an informal text message and it has to be able to appear in bubbles and like look clean so it can't be bogged down.
So not necessarily the design was chosen first but the concept was chosen and a look was chosen and the copywriter had to fit to that look. I've seen that happen but it's not necessarily like, okay, I've designed this now, give me a headline, a slap on it, you know. Yeah, I think it's interesting because often physically executing the copy first is beneficial because it's, you know, better for the designer to work with. But I don't think anyone should come first because then you have identified a silo.
If something has come first without the influence of the other, you have just siloed that. So even when I write copy, my design partners are a part of all of the input conversations. They are there in the intake interviews. They are there.
When I'm reviewing concepts with the ACD, they are there every step of the way and they are part of the concepting the visualization, the whole ideation of it as a basic outline concept. Like they're always in the mix with it. And I think that is the kind of secret when people ask that question, it's like, yeah, sure, maybe you should physically write the copy first so that you don't have to like, you know, deal with certain intricacies of like reformatting a design but you should be working together from minute one, you should always have your copy and your designer talking out an idea and a concept together. They should not really ever be thinking of one thing all alone and one thing alone and then trying to bring them together.
It's always to start with that, you know, best friendship as I've called it. No, that is so important in such great points. And I mean, honestly, some of the most award money ads that I've seen sometimes literally didn't really have much copy on it. It was very heavily visually focused, but that doesn't mean that a copywriter wasn't in the room, right?
Because they had to be in the room to create that awesome visual, right? To send that message across. So I think that company should also start to think about that too. Like everything doesn't need to be said all the time in the headline.
It can be visual. All right. I see we have another question in here. I'm going to fit in before we end.
This is from Daryl. It says, how many approval checkpoints are too many when it comes to ideation and deliverables on creatives? Wow. This is a great question and goes to process.
So this is a hard one. So my opinion is the less feedback rounds the better, right? When you're going to have a feedback round and wherever you're going to place it in your process, you should make sure that it's one that is absolutely necessary needed. Is this the end of a copy phase and this is why you need feedback?
Is this the end of a design phase and this is why you need feedback? Is this the start of a strategy phase and you want approval on it and this is why you need feedback feedback? I think you really, really need to think about that because quite honestly, it is so easy to get into so many feedback rounds at so many stages of the process. And Devin and Brandon, I know that you can probably add to that too because you experienced it on day to day.
Yeah. I think it's like there's some joke in some sitcom. I don't remember which one that's like nothing good happens after 2am. I would say nothing good happens after a feedback round 4.
It's not going to get better. It's not going to be fundamentally different. And I think that's where people can get tripped up because you want to perfect it and you keep going. But at a certain point, you need to move forward with the execution and that's something I deal with.
That's a joke among writers too. It's like if somebody didn't stop me from editing, I would edit to the end of time. And it's like you need somebody so I think having a decision maker to just come in and it is a good choice. And usually one decision maker is the best.
Yes. That is something that we really try to push for one decision maker, one approver. But one thing that I did want to bring up from having too many feedback rounds at one point is I remember Emma Greer dealing with a customer and we did so many different iterations to the point where we got to a feedback topic and it was for a construction company and they said, I think the cones just need to be dirty. I think this is what we'll solve for this.
And I thought to myself, I don't think that is what we'll solve for this. I think there's another underlying issue that we're trying to get across to help. But I don't think that that's what's going to be the thing that connects better with your audience. So I've seen that having too many feedback rounds also leads to feedback that isn't necessarily necessary and everyone starts to get too much into their thoughts.
I think that's it. And I think we're at time. I think that this was an amazing conversation. I am so excited to see how many people joined and I'm excited to eventually be able to do this again.
But thank you all again for joining another session of Sacking Grove Live and I hope to see you again soon. Bye.