Welcome back to Sacking Growth, everybody. Carl, how you doing? Oh, yeah. We're back.
Doing good, Cassidy. How are you? I'm doing well. Doing a great day.
It's 70 degrees in sunny outside Chicago. I'm standing. I'm doing a podcast. I normally stand and do a podcast, but it's in the afternoon, so I'm come to ready to go.
I don't know if anyone can see you, but you're just looking sharp today. I mean, Apollo just sits so nicely on your shoulders. What is that? Was that J.
Crew, Banana Republic? What are we rocking here, man? You're looking sharp. This is nice.
This is J. Crew, brand new, wife and daughter. Thank you for that. Probably got it on clearance.
That's all I want to make with my stuff. It's one of the nice for you today, Carl. By the way, J. Crew is not sponsored, but can be if they want to be.
Sacking Growth, if you want to sponsor J. Crew, if you're listening, feel free to reach out for sponsorship opportunity. I would totally rock J. Crews every day if they want to send me a rock to polos.
So I'm cheap, man. I buy cheap clothes and I pay for it. And that's why I always look like a bum, for the most part, because I'm cheap, and I don't like to spend money on nice clothes, but I should probably refresh my wardrobe, eventually, and stop wearing hoodies and t-shirts. Maybe that's a niche of a niche.
Me, should be niche. Sales and marketing guys, talking on a podcast. I think that can be like J. Crew's new segment.
We're on top of that. You can rock in that beard with your J. Crew's. I rock in that beard with your J.
Crew's. I rock in that beard with your J. Crew's. J.
Crew, man. I mean, look, if Patagonia can tap into the tech bro space of SaaS sales, I feel like J. Crew could find a niche dude right now. Patagonia is undefeated.
Blue Ocean. No competitive apparel for B2B SaaS. I feel like it's something that, retail companies in general, they sleep on the B2B Tech Space, man. There's more opportunity to hear for them, I feel like, and they don't pay enough attention to us.
We definitely need a new look. I mean, how to go and start up best from the COVID days. I mean, that's over. It's the lead gen.
It's the lead gen of apparel. Like, it's dumb. It's ineffective. We need the demand gen of apparel.
Maybe it's J. Crew. Maybe it's Banana Republic. I don't know.
But I know times are good when every sales guy got on the phone, which is where I'm Patagonia. Then you do those at the Gravy Train days. We're out of the Gravy Train days. We are hard to get business done these days.
We are out of the Gravy Train days, which is a good segue, Cassidy. So what I talk to you about high level business, how it's changed. I think it's like a platitude to be like, yeah, our business has changed post COVID. But I don't know if companies are taking it seriously enough.
Again, they're paying lip service to it. Yeah, business changed sales, the world has changed. Everybody says this stuff. But it's like a platitude.
It doesn't leak into their strategy a lot of times. I'll give you an example. We tell a strong kind of story at Refine Labs for years of how B2B buying has changed, and how people learn and research and discover products, discover services, etc. We've got our talk track for like change.
I think it's really rare to talk to somebody and they don't agree with that premise or assumption. But you look at their playbook, so in their strategy, and it's just like, you don't believe that B2B buying has changed. You're putting ebooks in the feed still. So you think or you say that B2B buying is changed, you believe that.
But companies have a hard time like really wrestling with, how does that look though in our strategy? How does that shift? How we go to market? Because this is just a marketing thing.
It's a sales thing too. It's customer success. It affects the entire revenue organization. And so today, I wanted to riff with you on just maybe what we're seeing, what companies can be doing to take this more seriously.
What does it look like from a tactical standpoint, and just jam on what are some of the risks? If you don't really pay attention, or you just continue to pay lip service to some of these trends that are causing seismic shifts in the market and affecting everybody's bottom line. I love this topic. Let's get into it.
I think your point, we hear this in every discussion. We have it in our company. We hear about customers. Obviously doing business has gotten more difficult than it has been over the last three or four years.
I think the sake we all make is we think it's we think it's temporary. And it's not like we're back to like how business has always been done. And now it is difficult to get a customer apart with money and achieve your product and services. And what I would say is like the last year or four years when it wasn't difficult, that was the exception.
And so I think to your point of we tell this narrative about why it changed, how blue buys change, and how the company is about to it, people didn't have to really need into that before. Because basically everything they did worked. Another refining is most of those things that you're doing that were actually pretty mediocre don't work anymore. We're back to reality.
And so when we look out there and talk to customers and prospects in the market in general, this notion of why change and how to tell that story that narrative will work up into your buyers more important than ever. Yeah. Yeah. When I think back to COVID, even my selling days at HubSpot, we weren't pushed to tell a why change narrative during COVID, right?
Because there was an enormous amount of demand to be captured. And when demand is ready to be captured, if you think about it, that demand is already for the most part convinced that they need to change, right? And so why change? That narrative really needs to be spoken in closely aligned with kind of like the create demand category of activities or that playbook.
And then the kind of like the opposite of why change is why us, why the vendor, why choose refined lives, why choose HubSpot, whatever your product is or selling or service or selling. And I think we got lazy during COVID because we didn't really, like there was an enormous amount of demand to be captured. Everyone was convinced they needed to change. Everyone knew they needed to record their calls.
Everybody knew they couldn't, their sales reps were all distributed now and working from home. You can't work in a spreadsheet. You know, you need a CRM, right? So like a whole world, because of COVID and the shift in business and working from home in a row, everyone always sold on why you need to change.
So for a marketer and a salesperson, it was just explaining why us, why choose gone over chorus, why choose HubSpot over sales force, why choose refined lives over some other agency. It was easy. It was like, okay, I can pretty much just pitch you products, features. I could show you a case study.
I could show you some testimonials. I could give you a customer reference. I could discount the price. I'm going to close the deal, right?
Those are all things that kind of fall into this why us. They answer the question of why choose us. Why choose your final? Why choose HubSpot?
And now today, what I'm seeing is everyone's freaking out. The results are down because buyers, you skip a step. If you go straight to why us in all of your messaging and positioning, whether it's marketing or sales, you're skipping a step. Buyers aren't there with you.
They're not at why us, right? You're further along then. They're like, like, why change? Why do I need to change from this product to this product?
Why do I need to start thinking differently about my marketing? Before I could sell somebody refine labs to be the team that executes their strategy, I have to sell them on the first deal, which is like, you need to change the way you think about marketing. You need to change the way you like lead gen. You need to change from lead gen to demand gen as a mindset.
You need to believe that first. And so again, going back to why everyone's freaking out, you see this in the sales guru world, right? Everybody's like, everybody's got a template now for like business cases. Why is that the case?
Because salespeople are scrambling to figure out how do I make a case for change and make it more, and then make a more compelling case for why I meet because this is a lot harder. So in my riff there and end it with one comment to highlight something you said that was, you know, what was super important, which is that we are not going back to the COVID days. That was an anomaly. We are not, I don't think we're in a downturn.
I think we're in a normalization. This is what business is like, and it's always, it's hard. It's scrappy. You have to convince people that are a mess and that have a million different priorities that they need to change and think differently about whatever their priorities and challenges are.
You need to re-shift their priorities. And then they need to consider choosing you. That's normal business. It's hard.
And I don't think a lot of folks really understand that that's going to change the skill set that you bring to the table. It changes how, like you need to, oh, we all need to like re-learn, re-upskill, especially if you just kind of started in the B2B marketing or sales space in the last five to seven years is a totally new world for you. What I really like about the framework and how you outline this, and you get a super simple. Carl is kind of the king of simple, which I like it.
Why change? Why us? Who literally do questions? Why change?
Why us? You need to answer the first one before you get to the second one. One of the things I've observed, and I know we talked quite a bit about this, and it worries me a little bit. That is, I see this dialogue about why change more and more in the market from sales.
But I don't see it from marketers. In fact, all the topics I see in marketing are everything else. But how do I tell the story about why change for my business or for myself? It's what's interesting is marketers are all focused on tech.
They're focused on attribution. They're focused on a bunch of stuff. But what I never hear a dialogue around is how do I tell from why change story. Meanwhile, the sales team, the sales organization, the sales brands are all scrambling to figure this out.
And the reason is because we've created a marketing engine machine in B2B where we kind of push the accountability to actually market and sell to the sales team. We capture some leads by doing no real marketing, and we throw those over to the sales team, and then we throw the sales team. Now it's your job. We figure out the why change story and why us stories are going to deal.
I don't mean pretty harsh, but I don't know any other answer to this. Like why are we not talking about this is the fundamental job of marketing. It's a convey really unique narrative point of view. Your why change to the market.
Yeah. And most companies we run into are doing that. And that's why win rates are being affected because you've got again, old world, right? COVID era marketing didn't have to do that.
They could just put features in the feed and they're advertising that would get signed up. Right. That was like the golden era of PLG. I would argue we are past that.
But the golden era of PLG, right? Where it's like you could basically sell with the product. The underlying assumption there is that the buyer is already convinced they need to change. That assumption is no longer true.
I don't want to go on a bash fest at PLG. I feel about PLG. But that entire go-to-market model was built around the fact that this person knows they need to change. Already.
So they're just going to go into the product and probably self-serve and buy their way to it. That's not true. That world isn't true anymore. And that's why salespeople are scrambling.
You're right because marketing is delivering leads of people with varying buying intents and sales has to start from the beginning almost as if it's cold, right? Almost as if it's cold outbound. That's why we see win rates dropping dramatically because they have to go back to the beginning with the buyer and be like, you came inbound. You've got all the wrong assumptions.
This is why you need to change in the first place. And now we can kind of get to why you need to consider us as your vendor. But the sales teams are figuring this out. Man, closing deals is a great way to separate yourself.
But marketing is going to have to catch up if they want their results to be improved. And here's a challenge, Cassidy. Let me know if you think this is a challenge you're on. I think that marketers, this is a business acumen thing.
I think that marketers are again great at selling their piece of tech. They know about it. They know about that industry, right? Like let's say you're selling a, you know, I don't know, a separate sales engagement platform like our venture or sales loft.
You know, everything there is to know about that. But what you might not know is how an executive team thinks about outbound as a part of their broader go-to-market strategy and comparing an investment in that to other places in the business they could be investing dollars to drive maybe the same or more growth. That is a more complex business level conversation. And I don't know marketers from a business acumen standpoint, some of them, of course, are world class ed, but they're in the same boat as sales.
Like we all have to level up on just corporate like business acumen. How do decisions get made? How are CEOs thinking about growth? And how do CEOs evaluate opportunities to drive growth?
I'm not sure you think about here's an example. Like you're going to buy lavender, right? The email, the AI tool that grades your emails and helps you write better emails. The priority that they're tying to is, well, if you get better reply rates and better positive responses, you drive more pipeline and revenue.
Okay. So the priority there that they're tethered to is pipeline and revenue. Well, there are a million different ways that you can drive pipeline and revenue. So lavender, as an example, has to convince and sell a company that they not only need to buy lavender, but that this is the most important growth lever to hit pipeline and revenue.
So now they're not only competing with other AI tools, but they're competing with other pieces of tech that are claiming the same stuff, maybe like a BI tool, like Looker or Falcon or Clary, because they're claiming pipeline and revenue. And then there's marketing and agencies also vying for that same budget. So a CEO, it's not just lavender versus some other AI tool, but it's like, there are 10 different areas I can invest these dollars to drive pipeline and revenue, which one is going to be the best. It takes a very special kind of marketing and sales team to follow a CEO along an entire decision, it's not going to buy your journey.
It's like a decision making journey as to where to invest. Why? Because there's not a million dollars to invest anymore, right? So I have to be more specific worth with I place my bets.
I don't think that marketing and sales teams are prepared to think through that entire decision making journey. They don't have the skills or the knowledge to do that on the business acumen to do that. You crack that code, you win. Why do you think they don't have as business acumen?
A couple reasons. That's a good question. You call me by surprise there. That's a good one.
I don't think there's a clear cut way in how to develop business acumen. So my answer there is like first answer to your question is like, it's freaking hard to develop business acumen. How did you like you probably have some of the highest caliber business acumen of anyone I know. Don't let that go to your head.
So last time I'm going to say that. But like you look at how you acquired that. Look at who you used to work. I mean, you started out like Pricewaterhouse, like these great companies, you got your MBA, you've worked for different, you've had a bunch of different leadership positions.
So like I think a part of it is just like time in the water. Like you just got to have like been there done that for a while. Now, how do you accelerate the learning of business acumen? I think you have to pursue that education like very intentionally.
It's not listening to gone calls. It's not like it's not going to be found in sales guru courses. It's not going to be found in sales books. It's not going to be found, you know, in exit five, right?
Which is a great community. But there's a bunch of tactical advice. I think you have to be really intentional. First of all, Cassidy of where you are learning and what the goal is of your learning.
I want to deeply understand how a CEO and a board of directors makes investment decisions and how a business operates. That's hard. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, I don't know that people actually realize that this is the root cause of their pain underneath it all.
I think they're like, oh, that's product market fit. And oh, we need to just do more like our salespeople need more enablements or more decks, right? It's like more tactics. We need to spend more.
We need to figure out LinkedIn. They think incorrectly about what the problem is. My hypothesis and assumption is that the problem underneath it all is business acumen. So I think like, you got to believe that that is a problem.
I think it's a problem. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think experience helps. I'm a little better on the block when these things as I went, you see a bunch of different companies environments. And, you know, that does help.
So how do you accelerate it? I think you said something very, very insightful, which is you. Most of the effort that we put into our daily marketing and sales is around tactics to try to get better at YS. And we put almost no effort into figuring out the broader narrative around YChange.
And being able to put language on this, I think is the first step to create awareness for businesses and marketing and sales teams. To kind of take a look at what they're doing and just realize that you're putting all your effort into optimizing a YS story with marginal return on that investment, when you should be spending all your time in obsession on the YChange story and getting smarter and smarter about that. And you're never done. You're always honing that story and learning something new, digging into your market, digging into your customers and why they buy or don't buy.
You're really trying to, it's a lot of work to figure that out and to stay on top of it. But if you think about the best and the best sellers, they're the best because they do that really well. And there's some of the framework for that. There's some of the books written on it.
You don't see a lot of LinkedIn posts on it. And that may take that so many differentiates to talk 10% for everybody else. Well, look at who the companies that we love the most are doing really well in their marketing and sales, right? To go back to Lavender as an example.
They're not selling Lavender as a product, they're really selling Lavender as a service. Like they're re-educating teams on how to write good business emails, right? That's something to do with a product. A product supports that thing that's service, but they're really saying like the way you think about email is incorrect.
And this if you don't change, you're not going to book any meetings. You're not going to make any money, right? You look at GOM, how they shifted away from like, why choose us as your call transcriptions tool. That wasn't their narrative, right?
Their narrative was, if you don't pay attention to the gold in the insights that are in your everyday conversations, you're going to fall behind. You know, refine life. Same thing. If you don't change from lead gen and pay attention to how you're measuring your marketing, you are going to fall behind.
You are already failing. Let me explain to you why you're failing. It's because you're running lead gen. Let me make sense of your pain for you for a second, right?
It's like the doctor analogy. You know, like I go to the doctor with pain. I don't know what it is, right? It could be a lot of things.
It could be because I'm old, because I've worked out too hard. I slept wrong. It could be something worse, right? Like a disease.
They make sense of my pain. The best companies make sense of pain. They help you to better understand your own problems. And that's, again, now, ushers in kind of an environment where we can not talk about what you're seeing alternative.
There's something to do with our product or service. This is why you need to do this without a save a sale, a sale, a sale, a final, a sale. This is what you have to do. Don't do it with your fine lives if you don't want to, but this is the work that's necessary.
Choose another agency to help you do it or try to do it yourself. Go for it. But this doesn't matter. Regardless of who you choose, this is a work that has to get done.
And so as soon as marketers can figure out how to do that and how to communicate that in the feed, right? They have a little bit of a harder job because salespeople get the luxury of entire conversations to tell the story. Marketers don't. You get one second in the feed to kind of peak someone's interest.
But then I want to read an e-book on why change, right? Like, again, we listen to podcasts on why change. Here's another interesting thing Cassie I'll bring up. Gardener, right?
You've seen a stat. Every salesperson thinks this is like doom and gloom stat. I think it's an opportunity for marketing teams. Gardener says 5% of purchasing decisions of buying processes, but only 5% is spent with a salesperson.
And that 5% is split between a couple of vendors, typically. So like one sales person at like Refine Labs or a HubSpotters and Tech Company really only to get like 1 to 2% of time because they're splitting that with maybe a couple of other competitors. What an amazing opportunity for marketing. You influence, can influence properly if you're doing it right.
95%, right? So if only 5% is spent with sales, 95% we could argue is spent with marketing in the feed, in communities, on social, in Google, learning, researching, exploring, etc. What a, what a enormous failure to focus at 95% of energy on. Why else?
Here's a case study. Here's these feature set, right? When you totally ignore, help me make sense of my world. Like what is going on?
Why am I experiencing this pain? Where do I learn to think differently about how I might tackle cold email, marketing on LinkedIn, community, PLG, companies like Crapback, look at liquid death. They sell cans of water, dude. Cans of water.
Look at their advertising. It all talks about why we need to change our consumption habits around plastic, right? They're like, death to plastic and all their stuff. I don't see no new advertising.
It's freaking hilarious. But using plastic, I don't see it in plastic surgery, right? So people are stuffing bottles into people. It's ridiculous.
But they're, why change? Why do we need to change? How we consume water? And all they do is sell cans of water.
It's amazing. But again, it's a good example of a B2C with a narrative in the marketplace of why we need to change and then the sale naturally happens. And I spend $5 a cup for a can of water because I freaking love the brand, even though they probably bottle it in the same place the sign does. So I'll stop rambling.
But anything that you want to dig into? Well, I think the example you gave at the end of liquid death is a given because B2B, we tend to hold our B2C brother on a pedestal in terms of their ability to do marketing. In many cases, we should because as you pointed out, we're selling water. We're doing it in a unique way.
They figured out the right change in order to sell water. They're not selling water. Yeah, they're selling it. And impact on the same thing.
And so, I'm joking the other day with Kaylee that, yes, I went to a business school way many years ago, back when it made matters. It's a different topic for another day. And you know, this business school is well known for turning out world-class marketers. Just tell us what it's like, Cassidy, just name, drop it.
Where'd you go? Where'd you go? I went to a dialogue in Northwestern. Yeah, I went to Northwestern.
This guy, you, we need to get you a Patagonia best, man. You know, back in the day when I was there, another one business school in the world, I think now it's only time I digress. The thing that they're really good at in terms of marketing was turning out B2C marketers. And I didn't go there, someone is the one who wanted my marketing.
I was the first thing from my mind. There's only one thing I remember from the school in terms of marketing. And it's the acronym STP. And so, we love frameworks.
So, here's one for everybody to kind of start your journey and how to figure out why change. It stands for segmentation, targeting, and positioning. Very technical and boring terms. But this is how CPG, B2B, B2C companies do it.
They spend all their time understanding the market and the audience, said meaning that down. Who are the types of people who are really going to buy what I have to sell? Who are the types of people who really want to change and how can I bring my product and service to that change? How do I then target them?
How do I get in front of this audience? Who is this audience? How do I get in front of them? And then what's my story?
What's my narrative? What's my position in order to drive that change in the nature? And it feels really simple. And I can hear B2Martner saying, yeah, I do that.
Well, I don't want to link in. I create an audience. And I get my demographics and companies between 50 employees and they're in these sectors and industries. And I create an audience.
I'm narrowing down. I'm targeting myself. I'm talking about psychographics. I'm talking about behavioral.
I'm talking about what happened. Talking to people and really figuring out how do I look at the market and its entirety? How do I carve it up? And how do I decide who I'm going to take my story to?
And then how do I go to the best? And they obsess over this. And then we see the great output and tell me stories of liquid death and so forth as long as you catch the CEO and the founder, on a podcast and you hear the process he went through to figure out how to sell water in a new way. And it's amazing.
And that's where you really get the essence of what we're talking about here. That is to me marketing. All this other stuff, tech and attribution and pay this and pay that. Those are all important neighbors.
The debate that makes you a real class marketer is that figuring out the why change story, figuring out how you dissect a market, how you decide who you're going to target, and how do you create that position? That's a story for the why change. So put that into chat GPT or Vard or Google it. There's a lot of research out there.
I'm like, how to actually do that correctly? Segmentation targeting position. Obsess over that. Become a next part of that.
I guarantee you'll be on top 10% of marketers or sellers in the world. Yeah, I would just add an additional layer to that. Whenever you're asking questions, doing your research, again, it's not just why does somebody choose refine labs. It's like, how do they make business decisions and how do they evaluate and think through their own challenges, right?
Because everybody has their own kind of mental models for thinking through this stuff. So it's just a layer deeper of understand. I don't want this attorney to like, you got to understand your buyer platitude. But I think we just scratch the surface and be to be like, yeah, we understand them.
They they scroll LinkedIn. They, you know, they, you know, they, you know, okay, most CEOs are, okay, you know, white mail over 45. All right, cool. Like, that's not enough, right?
Yeah, most of them are on Reddit. Most of them do this. Most of them do that. This is like really high level big, psychographic demographic, demographic behaviors or attributes.
I think the challenge is pushing deeper than that. Like, how does this person think? How do they view the world? What's the lens through which they understand their business?
That is, I think, the level of work that a liquid death has done, right? They do like their small little research studies. They have people drink different waters. They spend thousands of dollars on this kind of stuff.
We need to be we don't. We'll do a customer, a couple customer research interviews and ask a bunch of crappy questions like, Hey, how do you buy? Oh, the CFO is involved. Well, what does the CFO care about?
Oh, ROI. Oh, great. Okay. Now we have a playbook.
It's like, that's not, this is not nearly deep enough. So the challenge here and the charter here is, you all got to push deeper. And I think I'm going to make a Cassidy's problem to develop a framework and post it on LinkedIn. We're going to work on this.
So deliverable from stacking growth podcast is how do we develop a Y change narrative and button that up. We're going to do that. We're going to get back to our audience Cassidy. I'm going to let you lead it, but we're going to do that for them.
Can you commit to that? I appreciate you putting on the spot like that. Yeah, let's do it. I think there's, I think there's, yeah, I think a business actually made them two dimensions.
This, how do you understand the market and dissect the serene to get the Y change? And the other, maybe we can tackle this one too, is you need to also look at your position in the market, your company, your strengths, your weaknesses, how you make money, what are your limitations? Because, you know, it's one thing to come up with an amazing Y change story, because none of the people actually deliver on that. So obviously you want to do that in a way that your company, your company strategy and structure can support that sort of thing.
So you got to understand the market, the landscape, et cetera, but also your place in it. I'm a deeper than a star. You just started your framework. So dissecting the market and the major trends that are impacting your personas or your ICP's businesses, you can think of that as like a macro layer.
I mean, dissecting that, the next layer deeper is dissecting your position inside that market, right? How are you different from your competitors, the life of your website, you're probably not at all in any way, apparently different, right? So that's a, that's an angle and a dimension positioning inside that market. And then, and again, how that supports like a Y change narrative, right?
And then the final, I think layer here is then dissecting the buyer, you know, dissecting the economic buyer, the decision makers, the decision making teams, dissecting them, how do they make decisions, et cetera. So we got market at a macro level, the economy, it's like B to B buying has changed, right? That would be like a macro level shift of why you use our paying attention. Then what's your position in the market?
Okay, there's a bunch of agencies that provide these services, these services, these services, let's do some customer research and figure out where is there an underserved portion of this market potentially and how do we position against that or with that? And then finally, again, how do buyers buy? Why do they choose us? How do they transform their organizations?
How do they change? How does this work mechanically inside of an organization? Feels like that's the start of the framework right there. Yeah, that's a good start.
I knew there's a lot of a, I mean, this conversation was a lot of good frameworks out there, but Andy Raskin's got to get them to kind of go through this. Sorry, Graham, there's a bunch of others. I think what we can do is fill in some of the gaps and use some of what's already good and put to the other stuff that's a little bit more comprehensive because well, task frameworks are good. Well, these frameworks are good.
Cliffs, no versions of like how to do this work. Yeah. But in many cases, I don't find them detailed enough. Yeah, like a prescriptive enough.
Story, Graham, Andy Raskin, awesome stuff. What I think it looks like, what can come out of a cabinet to correct me if I'm wrong, what I think they're missing is like, what does that mean for a director of demand, Jen, at your company? Like, what does that look like in an ad or an ad strategy or a first sales person? Like, what does that look like on a sales call?
What does that look like in a business case? How does that like really impact my day to day, my cadences, the emails that are right? I don't know that some of those frameworks go that deep. And I think that's where fine lives can support kind of our audience.
Good stuff, man. You want to wrap up? Yeah, thanks for putting me on the spot. I'll get right on that.
I got to do. Yeah, you're not super busy. I'm looking at your calendar. It's not super solid back to back meeting.
So I'm treating cars and talking to this. Yeah. Yeah. We got to put something together and we'll come back and talk through it.
And I'm going to put this in action with a couple of clients and see how it works. Yeah. And if you're interested in piloting something like this or having a conversation, if any of you got rest your soul, if you've made it this far, like just got blessed you. But if you're interested in learning a little bit more about this, holler at us, we can figure out something with your company.
So that's it's a wrap. I love it. Thanks for our light change, YS. That's where you need to start.
Spend all your time on YS. If they're spending their time on the light change. Thanks, Cassidy. Later.