Terrorists & Crime Lords Discover Gig Work (Immediately Build Child Army)

In this eye-opening episode of Based Camp, Simone and Malcolm Collins dive deep into the disturbing new reality of modern organized crime. From Iraqi crime syndicates in Australia using Signal and WhatsApp to recruit teenagers for firebombings and extortion, to Mexican cartels (Sinaloa, CJNG) recruiting kids via Fortnite, GTA V, and Call of Duty, this episode exposes how gig-economy crime, encrypted apps, and gaming platforms are transforming criminal operations.They discuss how minors (as young as 11) are being lured with small payments, status, and “missions,” why this model is so effective, real-world cases, terrorist virtual plotting by ISIS, darknet crime-as-a-service, and law enforcement stings like Operation Trojan Shield. A fascinating (and sometimes darkly humorous) look at how technology has supercharged crime in the 2020s.Show NotesWe think of consumers and mainstream corporations as embracing remote work and the gig economy, but did you know there are also, for example, Signal groups, labeled “jobs” that Australian kids are using to get quick cash while doing chores and errands (+ the occasional firebombings) for an Iraqi crime syndicate, largely based over 8,000 miles away in Iraq?This is not just an Australian problem. Mexican Cartels like CJNG (Jalisco New Generation) and Sinaloa are recruiting Fortnite.The Iraqi Crime Syndicate Terrorizing MelbourneThe Broad SceneAn Iraq-based organized crime syndicate (often linked to figures like Kazem “Kaz” Hamad and referred to as “the Cartel”) is directing or strongly suspected in a wave of extortion, firebombings, shootings, and related violence targeting businesses in Melbourne. This has escalated notably in recent years, especially since around 2023 with the “tobacco wars,” and has expanded into hospitality/nightlife venues in 2026.* As reported by the Sydney Morning Herald: Kazem Hamad (an Iraqi-born Australian deported in 2023) and associates in Baghdad are alleged to orchestrate operations remotely. Hamad was arrested in Iraq in early 2026 at Australia’s request. Threats and directions come via encrypted apps from overseas. A 23-year-old Australian in Baghdad (linked to Hamad’s network) is also implicated.* The Guardian reports on how street-level crews (often teenagers or young offenders) are recruited via encrypted messaging apps to carry out attacks. Organized crime figures assign contracts to local “heads of street crews,” who then use youths as foot soldiers for arson, burglaries, or intimidation. Police have arrested numerous teens (some as young as 13-17) in connection with these incidents. This is described as a broader trend of organized crime exploiting youth gangs.* The violence has grown from tobacco-related turf wars (firebombings, shootings) to broader “alcohol wars” or hospitality attacks in 2026, with dozens of venues targeted. It’s linked to illicit tobacco/drug trades funding larger networks. Police operations (e.g., Operation Eclipse, Carmen) are ongoing, with infighting reported after key arrests. (See The Daily News Now! Podcast from Melbourne News Today).* Attacks often aim to force businesses (tobacco shops, bars, nightclubs, restaurants) to pay “protection” or taxes (e.g., the “Kaz tax”), stock illicit products, or comply with demands. Venues have received threats of monthly payments (e.g., around $10,000 reported in some cases) to avoid firebombing. Non-compliance leads to arson or violence. This has caused a surge in arson crimes (e.g., 68% increase linked to tobacco wars).* Note: The tobacco wars are an ongoing series of violent turf wars between organized crime groups fighting for control of the lucrative illicit (black market) tobacco trade in Victoria, Australia, particularly Melbourne* According to the Guardian, the conflict intensified around March 2023 after a meeting of key underworld figures failed to agree on controlling prices and distribution of illicit products. This led to a wave of retaliatory violence* The main fighting parties are several outlaw motorcycle gangs, the Haddara crime family, and Victoria Police (notably Taskforce Lunar) responding to the conflict* Kazem Hamad has also been linked* Per the wikipedia entry on this: “The illegal tobacco trade in Australia is highly lucrative due to high taxation on legal tobacco.” (they have some of the world’s highest cigarette taxes)How the Crime is Organized* Leadership uses Signal to recruit and assign tasks to local youths in crime networks, including those linked to Kazem Hamad-associated syndicates (the Cartel)* Teens are ideal recruits because they face lighter juvenile justice consequences* Tasks are assigned in group chats* Per the Sydney Morning Herald, one documented example of the group chats was titled “jobs”* Offers for jobs range from a few hundred dollars to $1,000 to over $20,000 for significant attacks* E.g. a venue firebombing would get you something more in the $20K range* The police and media are referring to this as a “CrimeTasker” model (akin to Airtasker, which I guess is Australia’s TaskRabbit)* They often use whatsapp for the actual extortion demands to business owners after attacks* So signal = for admin and operational recruitment* Whatsapp = for PR and comms* Payment* Extorted people pay the local gig workers in cash* Larger syndicate profits (e.g. extortion tax profits, illicit tobacco sales) undergo more sophisticated money launderingOther Modern Organized CrimeMexican Drug Cartels (Recruitment and Tasking)Cartels like CJNG (Jalisco New Generation) and Sinaloa excel at tech-enabled remote operations:* They post fake job ads (e.g., security guards) on Facebook/Instagram, then shift recruits to WhatsApp/Signal for training and assignments. They also recruit teens via video games (Fortnite, Call of Duty, GTA V) for hitman/sicario roles or smuggling, offering cash incentives.* HOW IT WORKS* Per InSight Crime, recruiters (or cartel-linked players) join public multiplayer sessions or lobbies, especially late at night when parental supervision is lower.* They send direct messages, friend requests, or group invites via in-game chat. Profiles often feature glamorous or intimidating imagery (e.g., bulletproof vests, weapons, cartel symbols).* Common hooks: Complimenting the player’s skills (”You’re good at this—want to do it for real?”), promising adventure, money, guns, cars, or status. They may frame it as a “job” (e.g., security, lookout) or an “event” like a virtual recruitment drive.* They play together to build trust* Then they transition to private chats* Discord, Twitch, WhatsApp, or Signal)* Then they exploit vulnerabilities: As ABC4 reports, they target isolated or bored youths, those fascinated by violence/weapons (common in shooter games), or from low-income backgrounds. Promises often include weekly pay (e.g., $200+ for low-level roles like lookouts) and escalation to higher-paying criminal tasks.* Finally, they escalate* Once hooked, recruits may receive travel instructions, small initial tasks (e.g., local surveillance), or smuggling runs.* As InSite Crime reports, Cartels like CJNG, Sinaloa, or Cartel del Noreste (CDN) have been linked to these efforts. Roles start small (messengers, lookouts) and can progress to violence or drug transport.* EXAMPLES* The Free Fire Cases (Most Documented, 2021): In Oaxaca, Mexico, three boys aged 11–14 were recruited via Garena Free Fire (a battle royale game similar to Fortnite). A recruiter posed as a peer, offered jobs as lookouts with weekly pay, and bought bus tickets to northern Mexico. Authorities intercepted them. Similar cases involved girls and other minors lured for trafficking or cartel work. Mexican officials highlighted this as a pattern across games.* GTA Online Drug Mule Recruitment (US-Mexico, ~2021–2022): A woman in Arizona was recruited while playing GTA Online. She met a man in the game who offered her a “job” transporting what she thought were electronics (actually methamphetamine). She was arrested with ~60kg of meth. US Customs and Border Protection linked it to Mexican cartels using the game for real-world runners.* GTA V Recruitment Event (2021): A teen received an in-game invite at 3 a.m. to a virtual “RECLUTAMIENTO ABIERTO” (open recruitment) event tied to Cartel del Noreste (CDN) and Old School Zetas. The recruiter’s profile showed militarized gear.* Remote leaders coordinate border smuggling, hits, and extortion using apps.* US teens/citizens are increasingly targeted for low-level tasks like drug transport.* This is highlighted in the latest season of EuphoriaDark Web and Crime-as-a-Service (CaaS)* As ICE.gov reports (a think tank about organized crime), Darknet marketplaces (e.g., successors to Silk Road, AlphaBay) function like eBay for illicit goods/services—drugs, weapons, stolen data, hacking tools, fake IDs, and even hitman services.* Groups offer “crime-as-a-service” with hierarchies, reviews, and escrow payments (often crypto).* Eastern European and international networks dominate.* Forums divide labor* Coders sell malware, others handle distribution or enforcement.Gig Economy TerrorismCore Model: “Virtual Plotters” and Remote DirectionISIS pioneered a system of “virtual entrepreneurs” or “virtual plotters” — handlers operating from overseas (e.g., Syria/Iraq) who identify, groom, and guide attackers remotely.This lowers risk for the group while scaling impact through crowdsourced or gig-style terrorismHOW IT WORKS* Recruitment flow (per a GWU Program on Extremism report)* Starts on open platforms (Twitter/X, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram) with propaganda* Then shifts to encrypted messaging (primarily Telegram, also WhatsApp, Signal, or apps like Surespot/Wickr) for secure, one-on-one or small-group coordination* Tasking* Handlers assign specific “jobs” — e.g., “conduct a vehicle ramming here,” “make a bomb with these instructions,” or “film a pledge and attack.”* They provide logistics, targets, and encouragement, sometimes arranging weapons caches. (NYT)* Incentives:* Ideological (martyrdom, caliphate glory), status, or occasional financial/support elements, similar to crime bounties* Propaganda magazines like Dabiq, Rumiyah, or al-Qaeda’s Inspire act as “job boards” with open-source jihad tutorials (e.g., “How to Make a Bomb in Your Mom’s Kitchen”). (Foreign Policy Research Institute)This creates a distributed, low-barrier model: anyone sympathetic can “sign up” by pledging allegiance online and receiving guidance.Key Examples and Case Studies* Hyderabad, India Plot (2015–2016):* The NY Times reported on a prime “remote gig” case in which an ISIS handler “virtual plotter” guided engineer Mohammed Ibrahim Yazdani and a cell for 17 months via messaging apps.* Instructions included collecting hidden explosives/chemicals from drop points, weapons details, and attack planning in a tech hub.* The cell was in near-constant contact until arrests.* This was not a lone wolf but a remotely directed operation.* Europe Attacks (2014–2016):* GWU’s Program on Extremism made a report on how virtual plotters directed or inspired ~19 of 38 ISIS-related attacks in Western Europe.* Examples include Paris (2015) and Brussels (2016) networks using Telegram for coordination.* Handlers provided real-time guidance, bomb-making tips, and target selection.* Lone Wolf / Inspired Attacks:* The Combating Terrorism Center at West Point reported on how ISIS encouraged decentralized acts globally.* Supporters were radicalized via social media, moved to Telegram channels for instructional content (e.g., attack tutorials, target suggestions), and sometimes received direct coaching.* Examples include vehicle attacks, stabbings, and shootings where perpetrators cited ISIS inspiration and had online contact.* Ongoing Digital Ecosystem:* Small Wars Journal addresses how even after territorial losses, ISIS maintains decentralized networks of supporters producing propaganda, translating content, and running channels on Telegram.* These act as distributed “content creators” and recruiters, with some providing cybersecurity training or crypto donation guides for funding operations.Tech Platforms Used by Criminals* According to the International Association of Chiefs of Police: EncroChat, Sky ECC, Phantom Secure, and others: These were specialized encrypted phone services used by European and international syndicates (e.g., Italian mafia, Albanian groups, drug cartels, motorcycle gangs). Users coordinated drug shipments, contract killings, torture, and money laundering across borders. Law enforcement infiltrated or shut them down in major operations (e.g., EncroChat in 2020 led to hundreds of arrests in Europe and beyond; similar for Sky ECC and Phantom). Messages included planning murders and sharing proof of killings.* ANOM (FBI sting): The FBI ran a fake encrypted platform that criminals adopted globally (over 12,000 devices in 100+ countries). It enabled remote coordination by Italian mafia, outlaw motorcycle gangs, and drug syndicates until the 2021 takedown (Operation Trojan Shield), resulting in 800+ arrests. (See: FBI’s Encrypted Phone Platform Infiltrated Hundreds of Criminal Syndicates; Result is Massive Worldwide Takedown)* Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: Commonly used for operational tasking, recruitment, and extortion. Mexican cartels and others move conversations to these after initial social media contact. (per the International Association of Chiefs of Police)Episode TranscriptSimone Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Malcolm. I’m excited to be speaking with you today because did you know that Iraqis and crime syndicates and Mexican cartels are using signal groups and WhatsApp and also, like, I don’t know, Fortnite and various- It,Malcolm Collins: it’s really missing.When you told me about this this morning, you’re like, “Oh yeah, crime groups have started using gig work.” And I’m like, “Oh, cool. You mean like in Westworld too?”Speaker 5: Like I said, I’ve got bills to paySpeaker 6: I gotta get my stats up. Do more personals. You do personals?Speaker 5: Nah.Speaker 6: You should. Your stats are shitty, man. I don’t get it.Speaker 5: I’m an underachiever. Look, I think we should [00:01:00] keep moving.I don’t wanna be logged together.Speaker 6: Relax, I’ve been ghost on that s**t since I walked up in hereMalcolm Collins: and she’s like, “Yeah, and guess who’s doing it mostly?” And I was like, “I don’t know,” like, and she’s like, “Mostly terrorist networks.” And then-Simone Collins: Yeah, it’s worse.It’s worse because who are they recruiting? At least in the Westworld like arc where they were using like apps to do crimes, it, it was adults. What they’re using instead is like 11 to 14-year-olds. Why? Because for these people, one, they’re like they can’t really think through it that well, but also they’re not going to be put away for life or executed for their crimes.So to them also, even just logically, the price of doing this, you know, if you and I were ask like, “Hey, you know, what do you need in terms of payment to firebomb a building?” We’d be like, “Well, probably a lot of money.” You know, even if there’s like no one inside- Yeah ... the place they could hurt, likeMalcolm Collins: I don’t want- I, I, we haven’t had our price, but for firebombing a [00:02:00] building, it’s pretty high for me.Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, and, and if this is assuming that we are sociopaths, we don’t care about the human cost, and we’re just worried about our liability. But the liability for minors in most countries is super low. So for them it’s like, “Yeah, I’ll, I’ll take 20 grand for that. Let’s go.” Like, “I’ve always wanted to firebomb a building anyway.”I think even likeMalcolm Collins: most minors would think that that was like an interesting and fun thing. Like- It’s a good deal ... eventually I’m gonna kill someone, right? Like- Yeah.Simone Collins: Well, imagine, so I mean, it’s also very smart. You’re playing Grand Theft Auto, like y- you’re already preselected for being kind of like interested in recreationally committing acts of violence or crimes, right?Yeah. And then like someone starts chatting with you, and they’re like, “Hey,” and they’re like, “Well, look tough.” You know, like they have some kind of profile picture with them in a bulletproof vest or something, right? And they’re like, “Hey kid, you wanna, you wanna do some crime?” And you’re like, “This is fun.”You wannado some crime? Youknow, it’s like first you’re, you’re doing the lookout, but it’s like, “Hey, you’re getting like $200 a week and stuff,” right? And like this is real money for a [00:03:00] kid that, you know, isn’t legally allowed to get a job. Like, I was recently looking at how old our kids have to be in order to get a job, ‘cause our son really wants to work at Tractor Supply.It’s like his top ambition. And- AndMalcolm Collins: becoming an employee at Tractor Supply is-Simone Collins: Yeah, like I think even at age 16 is, which is when you can start to work in the, in the state of Pennsylvania where we are, like it can only be for like family businesses- Oh ... and like not really a job. Like it, it’s bad. So for a, a 14-year-old, 11-year-old kid who like can’t get cash anywhere else, who likes playing Grand Theft Auto, and some cool tough guy is like talking you up and being like, “Hey, I don’t know.I’ll give you a job. I need you to be a lookout.” And you feel like, oh, I’m, I’m, I’m being given missions. It’s all on like secret encrypted apps. I’m getting money. Like, yeah, it’s kind of a no-brainer. I mean, not to judgment to know that this is super bad and wrong and dangerous and a slippery slope.Well, and thisMalcolm Collins: firebombing of buildings thing isn’t a hypothetical. It’s something that has actually been done multiple times. [00:04:00]Simone Collins: Yeah. So I’m gonna go through the, the actual like both tactics of what’s actually going on, plus like the cases of, of this happening. I have, I have examples of terrorism. I have example of cartels.I have examples of, of kids moving drugs, moving tons of really dangerous stuff around whereMalcolm Collins: kids-Simone Collins: This isMalcolm Collins: so cool. I just... Take a step back from this for a second. How can we get our kids in on this or get into this ourselves, right? You know? Is there, is there some utilization of this that I just haven’t thought through yet?The problem-Simone Collins: How do we recruit children on Fortnite to get them to- TheMalcolm Collins: problem is that even extremist pronatalism is just so constructive-Simone Collins: Yeah ...Malcolm Collins: that there isn’t really any sort of terroristic activity that would be of utility to even the most extremist of our movement, right?Simone Collins: It’s notable though, like y- y- you start to think about it, like even from a child labor standpoint, like if you’re willing to You know recruit illegal child labor, like [00:05:00] clearly there are, there are pathways to doing it.There, and this is just another like, piece of evidence pointing to the fact that children want to work. Children want jobs, okay? IMalcolm Collins: got it. I’ve got it. What, what pronatalist terrorism looks like is basically the anime Shimoneta. Okay ... you know, explaining to people that real sex exists and they should be out there doing it, right?You know, very subversive in our society compared to what they think sex is theseSimone Collins: days. Oh my God. Okay. I’m just... We’re gonna start at the very beginning of how I learned about this from one of our base camp community members, this goes out to you about the Iraqi crime syndicate, syndicate that is terrorizing Melbourne, Australia, which is insane, and I had not heard about until this very morning.So let me set the scene. What’s [00:06:00] happening basically is an Iraqi-based organized crime syndicate that’s often linked to figures like Hazem Hamad also referred to as the cartel is directing or strongly suspected in a wave of, a big wave of extortion and firebombings and shootings and other related acts of violence that are targeting businesses in Melbourne, like especially nightclubs, but not just nightclubs.It’s, it’s, it’s getting a lot worse, and that’s why this person listening to our podcast was bringing it up. He’s like, “I’d really like you to talk about how much worse crime is now in Australia.” Like, it’s, it’s getting to the point where citizens are like, “Hey, can like someone, can someone check this out?Like I’m getting scared.” And it’s, it, it really started getting worse around 2023 with what are referred to as the Tobacco Wars. Which were sort of... It, it, the Tobacco Wars in Australia involve Australia being one of the highest tobacco or like cigarette tax countries in the entire world, [00:07:00] which on the surface of course sounds like a good idea, right?Like, oh, we, we don’t want people to die of lung cancer. Yeah. Maybe we should tax cigarettes. But then, oh then like motorcycle gangs start selling illegal cigarettes, and then like, then or, you know, Iraqi gangs- Did theyMalcolm Collins: literally get the smokers from the movie Waterworld?Simone Collins: Oh my God, they... Australia can’t stop like making Road Warrior happen.Speaker 8: How about smokes?Speaker 7: Uh, n- n- zero. Zero, zero smokes.Speaker 8: I remember when this used to be fun. How long has it been since we’ve had a really good crusade?Speaker 7: I know, I know.Speaker 8: Tell me, how long?Speaker 7: Oh, uh, I, I don’t know. I, I-Speaker 8: Remember, uh, there used to be atolls on every horizon.Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.Speaker 8: Where the hell are they all going? Well, we sunk a few.Speaker 7: I foundSimone Collins: every time we cover Australia, I’m like, “Oh my God, it’s the smokers. What is happening?” I didn’t even think of that when I read this. It’s just... [00:08:00] I love it though, the aesthetics. I mean like, yes, make go Australia, go. But get these... What the... There are real Iraqis in RoadMalcolm Collins: Warrior. One of our weekend episodes, we’re pointing out that Australia’s running out of oil right now and is in a really bad position, and they’re basically already atSpeaker: Looks like I got myself some gusa lean eight.Malcolm Collins: Yeah.But continue.Simone Collins: Anyway, as reported by the Sydney Morning Herald, Kazem Hammad, he’s an Iraqi-born Australian who was deported in 2023 and his associates in Baghdad, so they’re not all in Australia, they’re 8,000 miles away are alleged to orchestrate operations remotely. Hammad himself was arrested in Iraq in early 2026, like this year, per Australia’s request.So Australia’s like, “Hey, this, this guy’s like a really big problem. Can you please arrest him?” And they did. And then threats and directions, they come in from his associates, and maybe him too, [00:09:00] via encrypted apps, mostly Signal. Like, they use WhatsApp to send the extortion messages, but they use Signal for the work.Okay, so let’s just go through, you know, like they have different purposes, using this in a very you know, organized fashion. Oh, one second. Sorry. It’s me. It’s the fertility company. Hello, this is Simone for example, in, in Baghdad who are sending orders to Australia to, like, their distributed network of child street urchins is, is another relatively young 23-year-old Australian, but he, he again is in Iraq. So this is, this is people very remotely organizing these crime rings. The Guardian reports on how street battle crews, who are often teenagers, very young offenders, are recruited via encrypted messaging apps to carry out attacks, and the organized crime figures, often in Iraq, are assigning contracts to local heads of street crews, so you kinda like make your way up in the ranks, you know, who then, [00:10:00] like, will use local youths or foot- as foot soldiers, and it’s the youths who commit the arson and the burglaries and the intimidation.Police have arrested tons of teens. Some are as young as 13 in, in these cases in Australia in connection with the incidents. And it is something that’s relatively new in Australia, so they’re really learning how to begin contending with, like, all of these really uniquely young people doing this stuff.Like normally I think people are accustomed to like, you know, adult biker gangs, for example, like where the tobacco war started. Like, okay, it’s these scary, These scary adults,Malcolm Collins: right?Simone Collins: Yeah. Nothing scarier than aMalcolm Collins: teenager with nothing to lose, right?Simone Collins: Right. And I think that’s the thing is, is you don’t expect these in like sort of developed countries, you know, where like there’s universal public school and, like, there’s not widespread impoverishment.Like, you’d expect crime-involved sea urchins and... Not sea urchins. Oh my God. Street urchins in like- Sea[00:11:00] urchins.Sea urchins. Watch out for them too, though. In like India where there’s widespread poverty and there’s just a ton of kids out on the streets, like in some areas, right? And we’ve, we’ve both traveled to countries where like, kids get involved with pick, pickpocketing rings and stuff.But like not in Australia, so like the police really don’t know how to deal with this quite yet. But it’s, it is getting quite extreme because whereas before it was just like small kind of local crime stuff, now it’s firebombings, it’s shootings. And these attacks are meant to force businesses, including tobacco shops, bars, nightclubs, and restaurants, to basically pay protection or taxes.A lot of people are calling it the Kaz Tax after the Iraq- Iraqi, like, basically terrorist. And then it, they’re also forcing them to stock illicit products. Like, “You have to stock my illegal cigarettes or else.” And, and sometimes they’re, you know, charging [00:12:00] really high prices for the illegal stock.And if, if they don’t, if they don’t stock the cigarettes, if they don’t pay the tax, they get firebombed.Malcolm Collins: So they invented the mob, but outsourced.Simone Collins: Yeah, it’s, it’s like a, yeah. Well, it’s, it’s really like the mob, but I don’t have to leave my house, and I’m just gonna have, like, teenagers commit the actual crimes because they’re not gonna, you know, go to jail for life for it.And that they’ll be much more likely to do it if they don’t know better. Yeah ... and it, it’s just cucking people. I mean,Malcolm Collins: it’s kind of clever when you think about it,Simone Collins: right? It’s extremely clever. I’m, I have massive respect for them, honestly. Well, I’m even thinking,Malcolm Collins: like, how do you even hypothetically fight against something like this, right?Simone Collins: That’s, that, actually, that’s, like, the scariest thing about it is I mean, so they, Australia was able to get this guy arrested, and then after he got out, there was a 68% spike in crime. Like, it’s very clear that when you put away very specific [00:13:00] people you can, for example, take out a, a decent chunk of crime in, like, isolated cases or certain crime types.TheMalcolm Collins: problem I think is, and, and this is the reality of it, if it’s 68% tied to one guy, right? This is Australia being a pussy. If this stuff was happening in freaking Tel Aviv, we know what would happen to this guy in, like, four days, okay? And it would be public and brutal in some way so everyone else knew, “Don’t do this,” right?They need to start acting like the Jews and just killing people who annoy them. W- a- and people are like, “You can’t do that on an international stage.” Do you know it’s the only realistic way to deal with something like this at a government level. And this guy isn’t even a citizen. He’s an outsider, whatever.We’re allowed to kill non-citizens, right? Like our government is killing people.Simone Collins: Is he a citizen? He was, I think he was Australian-born, and then he was, like, deported to... I, I can’t remember. But it’s- I’llMalcolm Collins: tell you what, if I was president you know, I, I think we [00:14:00] need to, to be far more aggressive about dealing with this sort of stuff.Simone Collins: Well, let’s talk about how it’s done, okay? So the way it works if you’re gonna be a remote work crime boss, is you use, at least in the case of, like, this Iraqi crime syndicate that you use Signal to both recruit and then assign tasks to local youths in your crime networks. I, yeah, there, there’s one Signal group, for example, that was associated with these ones in Australia just called Jobs, where you just, like, go look for, like, a job.You know, just, just like, you know, “Hey, $100 to be a lookout. You know, $500, like, rough someone up.”Malcolm Collins: Jobs, yeah. Just go out and go beat this guy up. Yeah, youSimone Collins: know? Just, just give, give jobs to the youth. The offers range from, like, a few hundred dollars to 1,000 to over $20,000 for significant attacks. Like a, a venue firebombing would get you something more in the 20K range, ‘cause that, you know, you gotta buy supplies.You gotta plan it. You know, it’s probably more liability, but not if you’re, like, you know, if you’re super [00:15:00] young, what are you gonna do? Like, imagine your home life sucks already. Yeah. Like, maybe your parents are abusive. Right. There’s not food, like, all these things, and then, like, you go to, like, some kind of juvenile prison, which, you know, depending on the country, right, could be pretty decent.You’re out when you’re, like, 21 years old. Like-Malcolm Collins: The other, the other good thing about this and, and good way to deal with this, and it’s shocking to me that they’re not doing this well, is as soon as you catch one person doing this, you can find out where they’ve gotten the job from- Yeah ... and then basically just infiltrate the network, right?Simone Collins: Yeah ...Malcolm Collins: spoof the accounts of the bad actors and just act like them and- That’s,Simone Collins: that’s exactly how this goes. A lot of these things are discovered through massive data breaches. I’m gonna, I’m gonna go into in a little bit some examples of ways that law enforcement has uncovered and also taken down and arrested associates.So, let’s go into some other modern organized crime using [00:16:00] these distributed methods. I think the more, the more impressive ones, even more impressive than this, this whole Iraqi child crime syndicatesMalcolm Collins: network is- Are most of these people, what are they ethnically, the kids that they target? Are they mostly white kidsSimone Collins: or- You know, that’s not specified.I think it’s one of those things like how in the article- IfMalcolm Collins: it’s not specified,Simone Collins: they’reMalcolm Collins: Muslim ...Simone Collins: they’re telling you. And-Malcolm Collins: If it’s not specified, they’re Muslim. If they were white, they’d be mentioning that all over the articles.Simone Collins: Maybe, yeah. It, it... Oh my God. It does not show up in the articles. Okay, give me one second.Yeah, thatMalcolm Collins: everybody knows news code now. Suspect race not mentioned means the suspect is either Black or Muslim, and suspect race mentioned means they’re white.Simone Collins: So the, the most impressive players, in my opinion, which shouldn’t be any surprise, is the Mexican drug cartels. So cartels like the Jalisco New Generation and Sinaloa excel at this kind of tech-enabled remote operation. They post fake ad jobs like, “I’m looking for a [00:17:00] security guard” on Facebook or Instagram, which I could totally see this.And then they shift the recruits to WhatsApp and Signal for training and assignments, and they do a little bit of a bait and switch. Like, yeah, it’s a sec- security guard, lookout guy, like what’s the, really what’s the difference? Don’t you need money? Don’t you need money though? I mean, you’re responding to a job ad on Instagram for real, like you think you’re gonna get a better job.And they- And yeah, they’re alreadyMalcolm Collins: filtering there with the type of people who areSimone Collins: responding to the job ads on Facebook. No, like filtering, yeah. An even better filtering is how they’re using games like Fortnite and Call of Duty and GTA V for recruiting because, one, you’re getting kids, and two, and also they’re, they’re doing this at like 2:00 AM.So you’re like in Fortnite 2:00 AM finding kids. Like these are kids who are like, they enjoy a little bit of like violent role play, especially like GTA. So per Insight Crime, the recruiters will join public multiplayer sessions or [00:18:00] lobbies really late at night when it’s expected like parents aren’t really watching or, you know, these are kids whose parents just aren’t there, who aren’t disciplined enough to keep tabs on their kids, which is perfect.Like the selection criteria there is just so clever, I think. And they, they’ll DM them or send them a friend request or a group invite using the in-game chat. And they will have profiles or profile images- Mm-hmm ... that feature really like intimidating im- imagery or something really glamorous to, to a kid.So you know, like cartel symbols or weapons or something, right?Malcolm Collins: Or like a b- a, a buff guy or something.Simone Collins: Yeah, like Andrew Tate style. You know what I mean. You know what I mean. And then they’ll like sort of love bomb them, you know, cult style. Like be like, “Oh, you’re really good at this game. Do you wanna do it for real?”Malcolm Collins: Ooh, that sounds spicy.Simone Collins: I mean, I feel likeMalcolm Collins: every time I hear about a money-making opportunity, I’m always just like, “Is this something we can make a few bucks offSimone Collins: of?” Oh [00:19:00]Malcolm Collins: God.Simone Collins: Stop them. You know? And then they’ll, they’ll promise, you know, money and adventure and guns and cars and status and they might frame it as a job, like a security guard or a lookout.So like they, they might even pretend it’s fairly like above board for a little bit. Or they might even frame it as like an event for some kind of virtual recruitment drive. And then they play together, like they build rapport, they become friends. And then they transition to private chats. So they get them off Fortnite or GTA V, and they get them onto Discord or Twitch or WhatsApp or Signal, and then they switch to exploiting vulnerabilities.So ABC4 reports that the, they really go for super isolated or bored youths who are fascinated by violence or weapons which is why they really go for the shooter games. Mm-hmm. They also really go for kids from low-income backgrounds because [00:20:00] for those kids they can even make this argument like, “Hey look, juvenile prison is gonna be better than your home environment.”And in many ways it probably is. So the kids are like, “Yeah, this is a win-win.”Malcolm Collins: But much is that juvenile prison that you go into with being in on one of the gangs.Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, yeah, exactly.Malcolm Collins: Like, do you understand? You, you get there day one, you’ve got a friend network, you’re already kinda cool, like-Simone Collins: Yeah, like I’m a Sinaloa kid.Like yeah, it’s, yeah, you’re one of the, you’re one of the cool ...Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s like you’re auto in. That’s, that’s prettySimone Collins: interesting. The payment per week is I, I think really impressive. Like my allowance When I did a lot of chores. I think at the height of it was, it started at $5 a week, and I think the most was ever 20.Oh, never gotMalcolm Collins: more than $5 a week.Simone Collins: Yeah, I think $5 a week was the most. Yeah, like I would, I, I made most of my money from pet sitting. These kids are getting over $200 a week for low-level roles like lookouts. So the pay is good. And then- Yeah. [00:21:00] Yeah, right? So like, you, you, you’re doing pretty easy work.You’re just being a lookout, and then they’re like, “Hey, you know, listen, you’re really good at this. You wanna do more?” And you’re like, “Yeah. Yes, I wanna do more.” Like, this is, this is life-changing money for a kid, you know? You, you ... People forget, being a kid can be fun, sure, but like, being a kid can also really suck.You don’t get to determine what you eat, where you live, what you do on a daily basis. And nobody treats you with respect. Yeah. And no one believes you, no one treats you with respect, and here you are. You’re earning real money. It, it’s, it’s, it’s very game-changing for a kid. And then, then they escalate.So once, once you’re hooked, and I imagine it’s very easy to get hooked, recruits can start to receive travel instructions or small tasks turn into smuggling runs. And this nonprofit, this, like, think tank that looks at crime and does a lot of investigation called InCrime, they report that cartels like CJNG and [00:22:00] Sinaloa or Cartel del Noreste are linked to these types of recruiting efforts.Like, the biggest players are doing this. It always starts small, like you’re a messenger or you’re a lookout, and then they become big, like you are transporting, you know, possibly millions of dollars worth of drugs or you are killing people. So there are some examples that have been fairly prominently covered.The, the most famously covered is a 21, 2021 case- In Oaxaca, Mexico, there were three boys aged 11 to 14, 11 years old that were recruited via Garena Free Fire. This is a battle royale game similar to Fortnite. I, I don’t think it’s something that is an English language game. A recruiter posed as, like, a, another kid, and then offered them jobs as lookouts with weekly pay, and then it- the, the recruiter bought them bus tickets to Northern Mexico.This is the point at which, thank goodness, the boys were [00:23:00] intercepted. But then similar cases that have also been covered involve girls and other minors that have been lured either for trafficking or cartel work. And this is a very common pattern across games, so it’s not like there’s one game where this is the problem.Then there’s this prominent US and Mexico 2021 to 2022 drug mule problem involving Grand Theft Auto. So one young woman in Arizona was recruited while playing Grand Theft Auto online. She met a man in the game who offered her a job transporting what she thought were electronics. Guess what it was instead?Malcolm Collins: Was it drugs?Simone Collins: Yeah. It was meth. It was meth. She wasMalcolm Collins: arrested- I, I I love that, like, the moment I hear it’s a girl, I’m like, “Oh, she’s gonna get raped. She’s gonna get sold into sexSimone Collins: slavery.” I know. This is, this is the happy case.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, this is the positive outcome from girl meets guy from Grand Theft Auto who’s in a gang.Simone Collins: For real. Yeah, no, no, she was just arrested [00:24:00] with 60 kilograms of meth. That’s all. It’s fine. US Customs and Border Protection linked this to Mexican cartels using the game for real-world runners. But keep in mind, this is a young woman in Arizona. This is not, like, some, you know, kid in a poor hovel in Mexico or something.And then there’s another 2021 GTA V recruitment event. There’s a teen who received an in-game invite at 3:00 AM, a virtual, let’s see- A reclutamiento al- abierto, an open recruitment event tied to Cartel del Noreste and old school ZetaMalcolm Collins: Honestly, given how y- you know, the kids these are so pessimistic about the future- Yeahthey’re also nihilistic, like-Simone Collins: Yeah ... it’sMalcolm Collins: really exciting for a lot of kids.Simone Collins: It’s, no, it’s compelling. It’s compelling. And yeah, so this, there’s basically this thing where you have, like, on top you have, like, the actual cartel or gang that I imagine still resembles a proper gang. You know, you [00:25:00] got the tattooed adults, or whatever, the tough-looking, scary Armenians or- The tattooed adultsMalcolm Collins: Armenians. Why are you going hard on Armenians hereSimone Collins: today? Because Armenians feature prominently in the latest season of Euphoria, and they’re really scary. And they’re, they’re a lot, there’s, there’s, there’s a lot. They, they have, they’re white neo-Nazi dr- drug runners. They’re also there’s, like, a, a Black cowboy like- Okay,Malcolm Collins: okaySimone Collins: sex trafficker essentially, and then there’s the, the Armenians. The Armenians are the scariest in my opinion. And-Malcolm Collins: Armenians are the scariestSimone Collins: Yeah, dude, watch it. You know, but it’s, it’s actually really good. But one of the major themes, and in fact the, the primary protagonist in the latest season of S- of Euphoria, which is one of the few remaining shows that’s kind of like an event show to watch it, it starts with her being a drug runner, and I was like, “Adam, this is not a very relatable plot.”But now I’m like, oh my [00:26:00] God, is this like, is this a thing that the youths do now? Is this-Malcolm Collins: Is this more relatable for kids than I thought?Simone Collins: Yeah, like is this a zeitgeist show? I thought this was like a, oh, this would be crazy. But they’re all... They’re either drug runners or basically sex workers, like, on OnlyFans and stuff.Like, Sydney Sweeney’s in this. If you’ve seen anything about Sydney Sweeney, like, and sex work, they’re talking about Euphoria. Anyway though this is very zeitgeisty. I mean, the main character- Like, I would genuinely want to haveMalcolm Collins: gotten into this had I been younger. I would think it’s cool. ISimone Collins: would really want to break the rules.Yeah, it’s cool. It’s like you, you make money. It’s, it’s subversive. You’re aware of the fact that, like, the actual opportunity cost for you and the actual risk is relatively low, especially in countries... I mean, it’s low assuming that your employer doesn’t kill you or get you killed.Malcolm Collins: But-Simone Collins: Which I think is discountingMalcolm Collins: this is the thing that I think is where we’re gonna see this go, is- Yeah ... so there was a case recently where a kid in Turkey, and he had built this [00:27:00] company when he was in his 20, early 20s. Yeah. So when he was arrested, he was like 22 or 23, and so this must’ve been- 17 ... he must’ve been like 19, 18, something like that when he made this.He’s like a fat kid from Iran, and he built a company that made where he scammed people out of a hu- I think it was like 3- Was this theSimone Collins: farm thing? The-Malcolm Collins: Yeah, $350 million or something, right? And it, it- And heSimone Collins: was caught driving like s- like a Ferrari in Uruguay or something.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. But anyway, the point being is the moment, you know, some Iranian figures this out, right, in Iran, right?You’re gonna get youths that see these sorts of things and are like... ‘Cause this is what I would think. Yeah,Simone Collins: sign me up. Yeah, it’s GTA V but, like, IRL. Please, let’s, let’s go.Malcolm Collins: Well, not just that, but like, I bet I could run these operations better than these guys. For real. Yeah. But like now that it’s entirely decentralized- I know, I knowand I can run this while going to school during the day. Actually, make a movie about this. This would be a really entertaining movie, about-Simone Collins: It’d be a great movie. Yeah ...Malcolm Collins: about a [00:28:00] kid who’s just like a normal kid during the day, but, but a la, like, ASimone Collins: crime boss by night ...Malcolm Collins: well, I mean, this kind of happened with the guy who created Silk Road, right?Simone Collins: Ross Ulbricht, who got a Trump pardon. That my favorite Trump pardon, Ross Ulbricht. MyMalcolm Collins: favorite Trump pardon, too. Yeah. But imagine somebody-Simone Collins: Actually, somebody, someone we know, I, I can’t name her I’ll tell you at dinner tonight, Just recently got breakfast with his mom randomlyMalcolm Collins: Ross Ulbricht’s mom?What?Simone Collins: Yeah. You’re never gonna guess who it is either.Malcolm Collins: I, I think I know who it is.Simone Collins: Okay.Malcolm Collins: The, our DC friend, femaleSimone Collins: friend. No. No. No. You’re never... I swear to God, you’re never gonna guess. Okay,Malcolm Collins: well, hereSimone Collins: you go. I mean, theMalcolm Collins: point, the point here being, Yeah ... I think, one, cool anime. Very, very familiar cool It’s cool TVSimone Collins: format, dude.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, doing the, Should I write a story? I mean, like use, with AI, this would be a great like first story, right? To-Simone Collins: It’sMalcolm Collins: gonna be like- I don’t know. I’m interested in this. I, I’m interested-Simone Collins: [00:29:00] We shouldn’t be glam- No, no, bad, bad. We shouldn’t be glamorizing this. Now I know, like I really have to be care- Like Octavian just this morning, “I wanna do like multiplayer online games.”He wants to play Among Us, he wants to play Minecraft. Now I’m gonna be like, “Oh my God, like is someone, is someone gonna be recruiting him to become a drug runner if I let him play like multiplayer online games?” Like how, how isolated does Arianna have to make our family to like-Malcolm Collins: Actually, hold on.To be even cooler about this, here’s, here’s an alt strategy you could do, right?Simone Collins: Okay.Malcolm Collins: It totally changes the way that you can even operate a gang, right? So right now, one of the challenges with operating these is they’re often targeting state actors and stuff like that.Simone Collins: Aren’t you about to give the cartels b- like operational advice?Malcolm Collins: No. Like what if you create a sort of distributed cartel that’s just meant to soak cartel operations for money and supplies? Like and, and because it’s completely distributed, it’s way harder for [00:30:00] them to pin down whoever is actually leading thingsSimone Collins: What do you mean? Like, how, how would this work? Do you be a supplier to them?‘Cause there are, there areMalcolm Collins: suppliers to them. No, no. You so if they’re already doing these sorts of operations and stuff like that, you-Simone Collins: Like you wanna be like an agency for the kids to be like, “Mm, I represent them now. I take 20% and you’re not paying me now.”Malcolm Collins: No. You, you create a counter cartel, right?Okay. That basically exploits the way that they’re doing operational. It’s obviously very up upsetting- Oh, like you,Simone Collins: you more effectively recruit the youth?Malcolm Collins: No. You exploit the way that they are doing this to siphon money from them. So, this requires a lot of trust from one, the youth who are doing this.Mm-hmm. So you can go in and spoof acting like cartel members, for example, to get people to do things that are counter cartel interests- Ooh ... within these particular regions in ways that can make you money through then [00:31:00] exploiting organizations and saying, “Oh, you pay me X amount, you pay me Y amount to be safe.”You could, you could run some sort of counter cartel operation. Actually, I wonder if you’re doing this in developing countries like targeting, let’s say big things like mining rigs and stuff like that, I bet you could make decent money with minimal risk of them just not being willing to pay you because the state operation that would come after you in these places is gonna be small, right?So, if you tried to exploit mining facilities and stuff like that in places like Africa, and you’re doing this well, you could probably do pretty well. Or large banks and stuff like that. The problem is, is they already have to worry about generic terrorism, so how far could you go? I mean, there’s countries on like the edge of development, so like Peru would be an easy place to operate something like this.Specifically because like historically, like if you look at the buildings, they’re really made to be terrorism proof, but not anymore. I’m just thinking like if a kid was going to do this, how would you do it in today’s [00:32:00] economy?Simone Collins: Well, you better figure it out soon because our oldest is gonna be 11 soon enough, and then you know,Malcolm Collins: there’s 10-year-old safety And do you think he’s gonna wait till 11 to start this sort of stuff, Simone?Simone Collins: Yeah, fair enough. He’s really, like- IMalcolm Collins: think he’ll be on it at nine. Oh my God. Y- with his,Illegal chicken farming, of course. That,Simone Collins: that’s what heMalcolm Collins: reallySimone Collins: wants to do. With his baby chick daycare. Yeah. Like I said, all he wants to do is work for Tractor Supply, babysit baby chicks. He wants to be there for the chicks, okay?He, he can’t stop thinking of the chicks. He’s intoMalcolm Collins: chicks. Our kids reallySimone Collins: into chicks. The chicks. Yeah. IMalcolm Collins: actually think that this is... The other thing I wanna take an opportunity to think about before we sign off on this topicSimone Collins: is- There’s actually more. Do you, can I give you a little more? Yeah, ‘cause this is, this is just fascinating stuff.Just just so you know ice.gov has stuff on this too that I found to be interesting. Darknet marketplaces, like there are successors to the Silk Road like Alpha, Alpha [00:33:00] Bay. They function like, and this is why I was confused by what you’re proposing, like an eBay for illicit goods and services.So there are groups that offer crime as a service with different hierarchies, and they have reviews, and they have escrow payments, often in crypto. Like it’s, it’s more secure. They’re, they’re really heavy in Eastern Europe but, and, and internationally, but I mean, we could make it, you know, made in the USA edition, you know, MAGA edition.Malcolm Collins: MAGA?Simone Collins: And then there’s, there are coders who sell malware. There are people who, you know, handle the like hits and drugs and transport. Like there’s, there’s a whole economy. People specialize. But the, the core model for gig economy terrorism is also fascinating, and this is the even scarier part, right?‘Cause you were talking about the exploitation of nihilism as part of the what makes this so effective and, and youth nihilism being super high. I think it’s extra scary when it’s not just, “Oh, this is like for $200,” but also like, “Oh, I’ve finally been [00:34:00] given meaning and a community.” Like, then you can get someone to do a whole lot more when that happens.So here’s how terrorist groups are using these general approaches. The, there’s a George Washington University program on extremism. I pulled some of my sources from there. By the way, all the show notes are in, in Substack and on Patreon. I’ve linked all my sources. They’re detailed, so go read more there.But the way it works is they will start on platforms like Twitter, I mean X, or Facebook or TikTok or Instagram with like propaganda, and then they shift from there to encrypted messaging, and here’s where like Telegram is also super heavy, but then there’s WhatsApp still and Signal, and then there’s also apps like SureSpot and Wickr, which I’ve never heard of before.Malcolm Collins: Okay.Simone Collins: But they’re, I guess, good for secure one-on-one small group coordination. And then you get handlers assigning specific jobs like conduct a vehicle ramming here, or make a bomb with [00:35:00] these instructions, or film a pledge and attack. Like really scary stuff. And they will provide everything from the logistics to the targets and encouragement.They can arrange weapons caches. You know, it’s kind of like paint by numbers just with terrorism, which is terrifying. They just make it super easy. You know, like in the past I mean, even when you watch spy movies and stuff, right? Like, the spies have to do all the work, right? Like it’s-- But now, like any kid can become James Bond.You know, they have like their person who’s like, “Don’t worry, here are your tools. Here’s how to do it all.” You know, and they’re, they just like... But it’s so cheap. It’s so inexpensive and so therefore scalable. And this now isn’t just about money, it’s about martyrdom, it’s about caliphate glory or status.And sometimes of course there’s financial support too. So it’s not just, it’s like crime bounties plus all these other things that can make people do much more dangerous things. There are the [00:36:00] propaganda magazines that get people really like stoked about doing this stuff that include even like open source jihad tutorials.The, the Foreign Policy Research Institute has scary stuff on that. So here’s some examples of this happening. Back even in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen, there was this plot in India, in, in Hyderabad. The, The New York Times reported on this basically remote case in which an ISIS handler, a virtual plotter if you will guided an engineer named Mohammed Ibrahim Yazdani in a cell for seventeen months via messaging apps.Detailed stuff. They, they instructed him on collecting hidden explosives and chemicals from drop points, and also weapons. They helped him attack or plan his attack an attack hub. The cell was in near constant contact until they were arrested, and this was not him at all acting alone. I think sometimes when we see reporting on [00:37:00] this, it seems like it’s just one dude.Yeah. But what we’re talking about is like there’s this just he’s, this is one dude with a lot of support. Then there were a bunch of Europe attacks between twenty fourteen and twenty sixteen. A bunch of virtual plotters directed and/or inspired around nineteen out of the thirty-eight ISIS related attack, attacks that took place in Western Europe during that time.Nineteen out of thirty-eight is a lot. And they’re... That, that they were involved in the twenty fifteen Paris attack, the twenty sixteen Brussels attack. They used Telegram primarily for coordination. And these people are getting real-time guidance. They’re getting bomb making tips, and they’re getting target selection.And it’s something that again is just not really... I think when we see news coverage of this, it’s like, “Oh, like some rando drove a van into a Christmas market.” And what we’re not realizing is this isn’t some rando. This is like, this is an agent being puppeted by a [00:38:00] very sophisticated, carefully planned, planning cell.Which is super creepy. There was a case in which- Oh I, I’ll just, you know, guys go to the show notes because I also wanted just to briefly talk about how law enforcement is trying to combat this. So there’s the, there’s this international association for the chiefs of police, which I find to be very cute for some reason, and I, I fell down a rabbit hole with them, but they were- Are, are theyMalcolm Collins: like a, do they look like stereotypical police chiefs?Is it like goofy and like a topSimone Collins: hat? It’s just cute. I just like, I see them like going, like I just imagine them going to the little police chief convention and being like, “I’m the chief. I’mthechief. “... crime is bad.” Just, I don’t know. I just find, I don’t know why I find it so endearing, but I do. But they, they say that platforms like EncroChat, Sky ECC, Phantom Secure, and others are some of the like bespoke [00:39:00] crime-only platforms that have been created by especially European, but also like other international syndicates for use.So instead of only just using Signal and Telegram and WhatsApp, they have developed these like specific dedicated bits of software, which I find to be interesting. These have been used by the Italian Mafia, by Albanian groups, drug cartels, and motorcycle gangs. And they’ve been used to coordinate drug shipments and, and do contract killings and things like torture, money laundering.And law enforcement has, for the most part, infiltrated these or shut them down. Like in twenty-twenty, they shut down EncroChat, and, and this also led to dozens of arrests in Europe and beyond. So the danger in creating a dedicated crime software is that like you’re gonna become the number one target as soon as law enforcement learns about you, and they will because they will eventually get someone to snitch by basically being like, “You’re going to jail for life unless you, you know, become a [00:40:00] snitch.”And-Malcolm Collins: Yeah.Simone Collins: They’re catching people planning murders. They’re catching people like coordinating torture sessions. It, it’s horrible. Here’s my favorite FBI sting that happened. What did the FBI think? They’re like, “I have a great idea. Let’s just build one of these and just tell everyone, ‘Hey guys, I got the new, I got the new software platform for crime.Time to come on here.’” And so they created Anom, A-N-O-M. I’m sure it stand... it stood for something. But it was a fake encrypted platform that criminals adopted globally. Like they got over twelve thousand devices in over a hundred countries that enabled remote coordination by the Italian Mafia and outlaw motorcycle gangs and drug syndicates.And then in twenty-twenty-one, after they felt content that they had enough people on their platform, they, they, they committed what they called Operation Trojan Shield- ... which resulted in, in over a hundred arrests. And you can read more about it. The [00:41:00] FBI has a- Fantastic. Yeah. There, there’s an article called “FBI’s Encrypted Phone Platform Infiltrated Hundreds of Criminal Syndicates.Result is Massive Worldwide Takedown.” So there is hope. There’s hope that these things can result in some form of justice. And the great thing about there being all this documentation on Signal and Telegram and whatnot is like, okay, yeah, as much as these are, you know, encrypted chats, people take screenshots.People take pictures of their phone even when you can’t take a screenshot in an app. Like, there are ways that, you know, if something is on a device, if something is ever written down, it can be documented. If something is uttered, honestly, around any kind of device, you know? So that, that is a thing. But I think for this reason, I, most of the current major crime syndicates and organizations are using a constellation of apps, which is why you’re hearing like, “Oh, well, the Iraqis are using WhatsApp for extortion messages, but Signal to coordinate with their, [00:42:00] like, team criminals.And they’re using, and Sinaloa is using Fortnite.” Like, it’s better to just, to be totally platform agnostic and do whatever works and shift frequently. And that’s why you’re just, I think you’re gonna continue to see basically gaming platforms and Discord and Signal and Telegram and WhatsApp because it’s just better to not be in any one place.So yeah, it’s scary. It’s a, but that, that’s what I wanted to share. I think it’s fascinating. I, there’s a lot more reading you can do if you go to the show notes.Malcolm Collins: Totally changes how businesses can operate, which I find to be very interesting.Simone Collins: It does.Malcolm Collins: It does, yeah. And if I was going to operate one of these, I would likely target a country that can’t defend itself as easily.I think that’s the, the best way to handle this rather than like the United States or Europe. Like yes, those are the juiciest piggy banks, right? Sure,Simone Collins: yeah.Malcolm Collins: But they’re also the most likely to get you, whereas if you’re targeting you know, Eastern Europe or, or you know, a, a lot of Arab majority countries and stuff like that, you can [00:43:00] operate without them being able to push back as easily.Which would be very, very interesting. That’s, that’s what I would do. I don’t know.Simone Collins: Yeah, absolutely.Malcolm Collins: But then you’ve gotta, you know, try to understand the local culture and language enough to make that operate, and so that’s a bit, you know, difficult. But, Yeah, that’s verySimone Collins: true ... very exciting andMalcolm Collins: interesting to see where this goes and as we get better at defending against this.Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, for real. I’m so scared for our kids, man. I mean- I mean- What?Malcolm Collins: Look, we’re the ones who started a cult, Simone, so you know, keep in mind-Simone Collins: Who hasn’t these days? I don’t know. Like, that’s-Malcolm Collins: It’s a pretty good cult, I’m gonna be honest.Simone Collins: It’s cool. It’s, I’m proud to be a techno-puritan. It’s good. All right.It’s, it’s, yeah. Love you.To what extent does it actually taste good because you’re starving because you haven’t eaten in a really long time?Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah, I guess. Well, no, I had, like, potatoes yesterday. They were goodSimone Collins: Oh, yeah, [00:44:00] you had, you had french fries and samosas. That, that was the, that was your comfort food when you came back from college, right?Today sheMalcolm Collins: made slow cooked Chinese pork belly, and it is amazing. It is amazing. And then she’s gonna saute the, the pork belly with bok choy and bean- beanlets, whatever they’re called, little beans.Simone Collins: Bean sprouts?Malcolm Collins: Bean sprouts.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: But I am excited for this episode, so let’s hop right in. Are we on the right side?Simone Collins: Yes, we are. Sir, he’s such in a grabby phase. Okay. Oh, you think it’s-- he thinks it’s funny. He thinks it’s funny. Of course he thinks it’s funny.Speaker 10: Are they getting away? Are they your buddies? Yeah. How’s the daycare going, your baby chick daycare? Yeah. It’s going well? You tickle? Yeah. All right. You wanna give them their new home? [00:45:00] Yeah, I can go get my things. Okay. Of course Okay, girly, down you go. Rascal, uh-oh Oh, no. Rascal’s living up to her name. No, no, no, no, no.We’ll get her in. All right, you can walk them into their new home Hey Rascal. Come here girl This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe