The Alford Plea

Hi, I'm Holly and I'm Hailey. Welcome to Mountain Mysteries Tales from Appalachia. It's beginning to smell a lot like Christmas. Oh, hey we're live.

Oh hi everybody. Oh hi. Hailey told me that my home smelled like Christmas and I was like, really? So you're so smells like Christmas.

Yeah, because it's Christmas soap. The bathroom soap. Yeah, because I washed my hands after I tingled. Good job.

I'm not an animal. Sometimes I have to tell my son, did you wash your hands and he's like, no I'll get it next time. And I'm like, that's not how this works. Same thing after never doing I'll say, did you wipe your booty and he was like, eh, I'll do it next time.

Okay, next time. Not how this works. Not exactly. He's like, well, I got things to do.

You know, lucky I took enough time for pooping, but I'll catch you next time. I just want to say, I don't know what it is, but I don't know if that was that dominant was, but I feel all kind of the gassy. Oh, maybe. So I'm sorry.

That's okay. You know, let's get to a little gassy in here. I feel like after all these years, the straw mattresses we've shared in a past life, you know, we're at that point. We're at the point and so my boyfriend just moved in officially, which is crazy.

I feel like a real adult. You are. Which is weird. And I just started my new like adult adult job.

Not that my other jobs weren't adult jobs, but only fans. Yeah, that one. That's like the real adult job now. Because only adults can do that.

No, no, no, no, no, armpits. Yeah, I can get behind armpits. Yeah, that's the new feet picked. I mean, I'm not really into it, but like if somebody else was it, I'm not going to like judge you for it.

Harry, you could do Harry pits. You could do, you know, not to shame. Hairless pits. Yeah, you could do a whole thing where you're smelling them.

You wrote that. People are like a weird ass king. I'm not a shaman, but like, that's not for me. That's you and your boyfriend's new thing.

Like, no, no, no, we have gotten so comfortable in our relationship though that we do we will announce when we have to go boob. Yeah, because I'm like, because we share a bathroom. Yes. So I'm like, hey, gotta go.

So we've now we've started naming our boobs. So how this came about is I went to the bathroom for the number two and you know, turns a little fan on. The white. Yes, the white.

Yes, did the wipe. Watch my hands. Watch my hands. Left the bathroom.

And I was like, okay, I'm on the bathroom if you need to go like shower or whatever. So he was going into the bathroom and he was like, came back out and he was like, you shot like a grown man named Carl in that bathroom. A grown man named Carl. That was like, all right.

So now anytime we have to, when it was like, hey, bathroom's gonna be occupied for a minute, we'll ask us it's gonna be a Carl. So if you're out there and your name is Carl, we're not saying that you're shit. We love you Carl. We love you Carl.

And you're beautiful to us. But that is what my boyfriend and names are aggressive. Number two. Wow, that's intense.

But we are that close now. We can talk about that. That's when you know that you're there. You know, I don't know that you and I are there.

Really? I mean, maybe. I think we are. Mine's maybe not always Carl.

Maybe more like Linda. Like an Esther. An Esther. Yeah, Esther.

Well, yeah. Okay. Well, I don't have a god-blad anymore. Oh, let me tell you.

You know, it's just it is what it is. There's no control there anymore. So this is going to be the other episode that goes down is the shitty episode. The shit episode.

But I do want to segue because this is not a shitty episode. This actually is a very good episode. We're going to talk about the Alfred plea. Okay.

So the thing is, is within the legal system, there are different kinds of pleas. And I'll be honest, I've heard of these terms before, but I really didn't understand like where they came from or typed in. So, you know, we're going to learn more. Let's do it.

All right. So most laws and statutes usually evolve from some sort of court case. Oh, yeah. This is true in this case.

And this is the case of Henry Alfred. It was November 22nd, 1963 in Winston Salem, North Carolina, when Henry Alfred and his live-in girlfriend Ruby were hanging out and he told her, hey, listen, I'm going to be back in a few minutes. I'm just going to go around the building or whatever. Just cuz?

She just assumed that he was going out for some smokes or, you know, yeah, he had actually just gotten back from drinking with friends most of the day. Okay. So he hadn't even been home a very long time and it was about 5 p.m. The sun was starting to set because, you know, it was winter time.

And he was like, yeah, I'll see in a few. She's like, I mean, okay, thanks for coming home for a minute. Henry, however, had other plans. Okay.

He drives a few miles and picks up a woman by the name of Georgia Lee Holder. Georgia is a sex worker and has been involved with Henry, you know, here and there. Okay. So like she seems like a regular of hers.

Yeah. Yeah. Kind of deal. Yes.

So has his girlfriend, but also has some some workers on the side. Okay. Right. So it's 8 p.m.

when Henry and Georgia drive to the home of Nathaniel Young. Okay. Nathaniel was known around town as being like a good time guy. In fact, his home was the party house where people came to dance, drink, smoke, and heaven or course with sex workers.

Hmm. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I've read townhouse one and this is him.

This is him. This is him. So Nathaniel charged men money to use one of his bedrooms for their relations with sex workers. So he like, it was like a cleaning fee.

Hopefully I actually didn't think about that. I was thinking, okay, so this is going on. Like, are you changing sheets before the other ones come? Yeah.

That is nasty. Like, are you standing at the door and like one couple finishes and then you do or is there like a time, you know, you're like, Hey, time's up. Time's up. The guy changed the sheets.

10 minutes. Time to change your sheets. You know, or like that's like part of the the expectation when you finish using a room, you tidy up strip the bed. Yes.

And put on fresh sheets. Yeah. And if you don't, I don't know if I would trust anybody to put on the fresh sheets. I think I would have to do that myself.

Yes. But then I'd have to charge a fee in addition, you know, like, and I would call it the sheet change in fee. Yeah. So that would be an extra dollar.

Five. It's the 60s. So yeah. Okay.

You're right. You know, you gotta gotta gotta gotta. Okay. All right.

So he's making a profit off of illegal sex work here. So not really a pimp, but kind of, but kind of, yeah, like Pimp adjacent, Pimp adjacent perhaps. That's right. So interesting.

Yeah. All right. So he was the place where men hid their discretion. He would say nothing about it.

They would come in, pay the money, do their business and either leave or party. Okay. So sometimes they'd hang out before, have sex, hang on after, you know, whatever, whatever floats your boat. It's a good time house.

It's a good time house. So on this November night, Henry and Georgia arrive at Nathaniel's house. They have a couple of drinks and spend some time with other party goers dancing to the rhythmic music. You know, kind of like, kind of like, through into the beat, kind of just getting into it.

All the things that you want to do, kind of before you head to the back room, you know what I'm saying? So Georgia removes her coat as the party starts to heat up. You know, you're, you're drinking, you're dancing, you're getting kind of sweaty as your music. Exactly.

Yeah. Henry approaches Nathaniel in earshot of Georgia and says, you know, hey, here's a dollar for use of the bedroom. Henry tells Nathaniel this is his last dollar. Essentially, you know, after this, he's broke.

Oh, Henry grabs Georgia by the hand and tries to usher her into the back bedroom. Well, having heard this whole interaction with Nathaniel about just having a book, Georgia's like, um, no, sir, you ain't got no money. You ain't got no honey. She's not willing to sleep with Henry if he has no money to pay her.

Right. Like this is her profession. This is how this works. She's got to get paid.

Exactly. You do a job. You could pay. Yeah.

Like, this is, she is a sex worker. Exactly. Worker. Worker.

Do you got to get the money? Exactly. Like, you're not getting the honey unless you got the money. Exactly.

So she's like, uh, uh, she parks herself in a chair next to Nathaniel and refuses to get it. Well, it's like, it's not like, she's not his girlfriend. No, she is providing a service. Yes.

Yes. So yeah, that's exactly. I get it. She's like, no.

Yeah. She's like, no, sir. Henry isn't deterred and keeps trying to pull her towards the bedroom and Georgia keeps telling him, no, and like let go of my arm. Like, I'm not going with you.

I'm going to sit in this chair and that's it. So even though Henry tries to tell her listen, girlfriend, like a deal is a deal. You came here with me to have sex. Like, that's what we're going to do.

That's why I brought you here. It's the whole point. Like this is your job. Okay, but you're not paying her and she knows you don't have any money.

Yeah. So he's trying to backpedal. Like, I, you may have heard that, but like, you know, no, no, like we're good. We're good.

Okay. Then show me the money. Well, Georgia continues to like push him away and she's like, uh, no, I heard what you said. We're not going to do you're not going to screw you over.

Right. Well, in figurative and literal eventually, Nathaniel steps in and tells Henry to just leave her alone. This causes a bit of a confrontation between the two men and Nathaniel tells Henry, get the hell out of my house and don't come back. And was it shocking?

Like, is it sad that I'm shocked that he stood up at a woman? I know. I felt that too. Like, I'm a little, like, oh, yeah, like that's crazy.

I think it was because he was making a commotion about it. And you're ruining the vibe. Yeah. The vibe is like for her.

And you also think about it. Like, he is flying under the radar here. Like, he doesn't want his house, you know, uh, to be like, if you start making a lot of noise, people are going to call, you know, like there's going to be issues. You don't want the police come in.

So he's like, just, just get the hell out. So Henry is pissed at this point. He looks around at everybody and they're all staring at him at this point because it's a confrontation. They're yelling.

So he angrily grabs George's coat and runs out of the house with it towards his car. So grabbing the coat is like a final FU to Georgia. Like, okay, fine, bitch, you're going to be cold tonight. Yeah.

Like that's his whole thing because it is November. Yeah. So some of the party goers actually run after him to try and get the coat back. But they're not able to catch up with him.

So Henry drives a few minutes back to his house and runs through the front door. He's like frantic at this point. So again, his girlfriend, Ruby is like startled and was like, dude, what the hell have you been? What is happening?

Because at this point, it's like, you know, nine o'clock at night and she's like, you said you were just going to like go out for a few. It's been hours and he's like, he's like unable to breathe, you know, kind of just frantic, like rushing around the house and she's like, what are you doing? And he's like, these men are chasing me. They forced me to leave a party that I was at.

And he tells Ruby, I'm going to kill him. When Ruby, what party? Ruby's like, I thought you were going out to get a pack of smokes. What the hell?

So when Ruby and choirs kill who? What? Like, who are you going to kill? He replies Nathaniel Young.

Oh, she tried repeatedly to like talk him down. Like, do calm down, like have a drink of water, sit down, like, it doesn't have to go this far. What are you doing? So he goes to their wardrobe and pulls out a shotgun, okay, has some shells with him and takes it once again, leaves the house against her, you know, telling him, please don't don't do this.

Henry gets back in his car and drives to Nathaniel's house. Meanwhile, the party is still going strong. Georgia is inside with Nathaniel and the others when they hear at the door. Nathaniel says, who is it?

A muffled voice responds, not being able to understand Nathaniel says, who is it? And he can't understand him. So Nathaniel decides, I'm just going to open this door. So he opens the door so he can see for himself who's on the other side.

When he opens it, he has hit straight in the chest with a bullet that knocks him to the floor. Yeah, it's not a small bullet. Nope. The shot went through his heart and almost immediately killed him.

I mean, that's a big hole, like it's huge hole. You seen a like a you seen a shotgun hole? Well, and we're also talking about pretty much a point like rage. Yeah, like open the door and it's like, bam, I mean, that's a and you know, most bullets, like if you see a gunshot on a person, like they go in the entrance, when usually pretty small, but the exit wound is.

Yes. So you're talking like a massive hole in the back. So it probably took out his whole heart. Oh my gosh, so stunned and seemingly shell-shocked.

Partygoers came to Nathaniel's aid and then they tried to go after the shooter, but because it took a few minutes to kind of like figure out what was happening, you know, at that point, they didn't see anyone. It was dark outside. And so the shooter was able to use this to their advantage. Yeah.

So according to Henry's girlfriend, Ruby, he gets back home and she's like, what's going on? He finally tells her, honey, I done killed that Nathaniel and I'm gonna leave you with all the furniture. I killed that gd son of a bitch and quote, so at first I was like, leave you with a furniture. I mean, he's running.

That means he's running. That's right. He's running all the stuff. So when Ruby inquires more, Henry explains that quote, when he went to the door and shot him, Nathaniel turned his head and fell to the floor and quote, yeah, usually a shotgun to the chest will do that.

I don't do it. Henry then said that, you know, he left the house and here he is at this point now. So she is bewildered. Like, oh my God, you killed a human being.

And he was like, okay, well, bye. I'm on kind of the clock here. So I gotta get out. So he leaves immediately.

So by the time police are able to make it to Henry's house, he has gone, but they found his girlfriend who reiterated this entire story about the gun, the group of guys relaying the comment about shooting the gd son of a bitch. So the police felt that pretty much they have their suspect. So they went searching for Henry. They finally found him around one o'clock in the morning on November 23rd on the streets of Winston-Salem.

He was arrested and eventually charged with first degree murder. Henry maintained he was innocent. In North Carolina in 1963, a first degree murder conviction could get you in life sentence or death by gas chamber. Decision decisions.

So as prosecutors prepared for the trial, they talked with witnesses like Georgia Holder, who was able to explain the motive, anger for being kicked out of the house. Ruby, the girlfriend, gave the intent to kill as she reiterated that Henry had mentioned how he was going to kill Nathaniel and had taken the gun from the wardrobe. The same gun and bullets that were used to kill him and that were found in his body. Bang, bang.

What the hell? I don't know. It's almost me shooting out there. I know.

That's scary. That's creepy. Especially when I just said that. We bring on a lot of our weird stuff.

So they also found a couple who live next to Nathaniel. This couple claimed to have seen Henry walk up to Nathaniel's front door armed with a shotgun. It's almost good. So yeah, the interesting piece here is that no one actually saw Henry shoot Nathaniel because the party-goers couldn't see who was at the door.

And so nobody else saw it. The neighbors saw him walking up with a shotgun or they thought it was him, but nobody actually saw the shooting. So this is all kind of circumstantial. Yeah, you've had no solid evidence.

Exactly. So they still wanted to move forward with the trial and not to mention the fact that Henry was a habitual felon. He had served six years in prison in the past for murder. Oh, yes.

I'll do it. He also had a history of armed robbery, forgery, burglary. I mean, you name it. Yeah.

Yeah. So Henry could not afford an attorney. So he was given a court-appointed attorney by the name of Fred Crumpler. Crumpler?

Yes. Oh, why? It sounds British to me. Hello.

I'm Fred Crumpler. Where it's more like, hi, I'm very cruel. Oh, I like that one better. I like that one too.

That's a good one. I like it. All right. So Fred laid out the options for him, which included pleading guilty to the charge of first-degree murder, which came with an automatic sentence of life in prison or not taking a plea and going to trial.

But if he took it to trial and they found him guilty, it would be highly likely that he would be given the death sentence. And at this point, most of the jurors were going to be made up of white men. So his lawyer, and just to stay here, Henry was African American. Okay.

So his lawyer was like, don't think you need to take this to the jury because you're going to die if you do that. Yeah. So this is not going to end well for you. Yeah.

So his options were plead guilty of a crime he said he didn't come in and spend his life in prison or plead innocent and let the jury decide his fate, which could rip itself in a conviction and ultimately his death. So Henry's like, um, neither. I'm not sure that's an option, sir. Exactly.

He says, I am going to plead that I am innocent and there's no way I'm going to plead guilty and spend the rest of my life in jail. But he also didn't want to take it to the jury either. Okay. Henry's lawyer went to the prosecution team and said, listen, my client says he's innocent.

I'm sure they're like, yeah, yeah, heard this before. Yeah, it's like they all are. Yeah, exactly. My client says he's innocent and he would be willing to plead to a lesser charge, something like, you know, second degree murder, because let's be honest, your evidence is circumstantial.

No one saw him actually shooting at the annual, so you don't have anything really. And they looked at it as this could be a win-win for both sides. So the prosecution would get a conviction without having to go to trial, right? And Henry would spend 30 years for sure in prison instead of life or getting the death penalty.

So he would serve time for this crime. So their prosecutors are like, okay, I think we can do this. So they lower the offense and they created a plea deal for Henry to which he agreed. So he pled, um, to a lesser crime of secondary murder.

The only thing is Henry agreed on paper that he was guilty, but he verbalized something different. When he appeared in court on December 10, 1963, he was given the opportunity by the judge to speak on his own behalf. He did and he verbalized that he was innocent of the crime, but felt he was given no other options but to plead guilty to the lower charge and order to save his life. He said, quote, I pleaded guilty on a second degree murder because they said there's too much evidence, but I ain't shot no man.

I take the fault for the other man. I'm still pleading that you all got me to plead guilty. You told me to plead guilty, right? I'm not guilty, but I plead guilty.

I just plead guilty because they said if I didn't, they was going to gas me for it. And that is all in quote. And that is all. Okay.

So that's a lot there. So he's basically saying I was coerced to pleading guilty because if I didn't, I was likely going to get the gas chamber, like saying like, I'm going to plead guilty to save my own life. But I'm innocent, but I'm saying to claiming my innocence. Exactly.

I am verbalizing my innocence even though they have me write in a statement that I am guilty, but I am verbalizing here in the court that I am innocent and that I was coerced into this. So the judge listens and asked Henry if his lawyer had explained to him the difference between first degree murder and second degree murder and what plea deals mean, what it means to go to a jury trial, all those things. And Henry was like, yes, like my lawyer went through all the things and I'm well informed. I understand the differences, but I'm still here to tell you I'm innocent, but I have no options.

The judge then sentenced him on the spot, which turns out to be what happens in Alfred, please. He sentenced him to 30 years in prison. So Henry and his lawyer appealed the 30 year sentence due to an involuntary guilty plea. The appeal stated that Henry was fearful that he would be executed and felt he had no other options.

The appellate court didn't accept his appeal. They were like, no, we have it in writing where you said that you were guilty. You pled to the lesser charge, take your time and you know, just take it like a man. Henry and his lawyer pressed on and the case went to the US Court of Appeals for the North Carolina Fourth Circuit.

Upon review of the case, they determined that Henry did plead guilty under duress and coercion and overturn the eviction. But the case made it all the way to the Supreme Court and they considered if Henry understood his constitutional rights and that he would have rights in a jury trial, which ultimately didn't have to mean that he would get the death penalty. It's kind of a 50-50, right? And if his lawyer had properly educated him, was the decision to plea bargain made intelligently and with all information?

So if the answer was no, the Supreme Court could overturn the conviction. If the answer was yes, the 30-year sentence would stand. In the end, the Supreme Court ruled against Henry in a six to three vote. They felt that Henry had been well informed by his lawyer and had made a decision that was in his best interest.

So what this did was create a precedence. If someone pleads guilty, but it's in their best interest to do so, this is known as an Alfred plea. Also, an Alfred plea comes with an automatic sentencing like we talked about where uncontested pleas, and we'll talk about the difference in a minute, have sentencing a few weeks or a few months later. So, Alfred plea, it's like, okay, you're pleading right now, you're going to get your sentence versus, you know, we're going to come back.

Also with an Alfred plea, you are saying on paper that you're guilty, but you are verbalizing, hey, I'm innocent. The fact that it's recorded on paper and that you signed it in an Alfred plea means that you can be tried in a civil court and you can be sued by the victim's family. If you submit an uncontested plea, you're verbalizing guilt, so you're stating it, but it's not on paper. So you cannot be prosecuted for civil suits related to the crime.

Is that still considered an Alfred plea? No, it's considered an uncontested plea. So you're saying I'm not contesting this, I'm guilty, but they can't sue you. Gotcha.

It's very complex. Because you're going into like, because you're not saying verbally, I'm innocent. Right. You're just it's yeah, okay, I get it.

So an Alfred plea is defined as quote, a plea under which defendant may choose to plead guilty, not because of admission of to a crime, but because the prosecutor has sufficient evidence to place a charge and obtain a conviction in court. So basically, I'm pleading because I know if I take it to the jury, they have too much evidence against me that it's not going to go in my favor. So again, this leads to what is my best interest. So in an Alfred plea, a defendant asserts his innocence, but amidst that sufficient evidence exists to convict him.

Fun fact, all US states are allowed to use all Alfred pleas, except for three, really guesses what states they are? Not North Carolina. Um, let's see, Mississippi. Nope.

No, Alaska. Nope. I don't know. Close.

Indiana. Okay, Michigan. Okay, New Jersey. Interesting.

Very random. Very random. Yeah. So you can't use an Alfred plea in those states.

So Henry Alfred died in a North Carolina prison in 1975, just 12 years into his 30 year sentence for which he continued to maintain his innocence. It is important to note that an Alfred plea has been used in many high profile cases, including ones like the West Memphis. That's about to say Damien and Eckert used it. Yep.

And he was eventually cleared. Yeah. I guess, or did he just serve his time? He served his time, but I think that you're still working on forensic evidence in that case.

Yeah, because I know I've listened to if you've never like heard of that case, there's a million podcasts on it. Did I do an episode on the West? No, that's where we did it. I've listened to so many about them.

But you need if you haven't heard of that case, it's crazy. Um, and I listened to like a whole interview that Damien did, like talking about his work now with youth and like that kind of thing. And I'm like so impressed by him. That's great.

Like I don't think personally, I don't believe he was guilty. Right. I know there's a whole lot of people who do and there's a whole lot of people who don't. But I'm talking about the murders of eight rogue boys.

Yeah. And so it's a very, really horrific, like they were hog tied together. Yeah. They, and they arrested these three boys who, I mean, it's pretty much textbook coerced confession.

I mean, if you look at it's pretty crazy how they did it. How they got these confessions and all of them immediately recant. Right. And yeah, he's kind of the, you know, the one who has been the most outspoken and done a lot with like innocence projects and things like that.

So I just, if you haven't heard the story and haven't heard him speak, I would recommend that. Well, and we also know that, you know, any kind of admission of guilt or anything like that that's done under duress or coercion can easily be overturned. We saw that in the case of Karen Seils that I covered many, many years ago, um, that Mr. Jackson who had committed this crime, it was actually overturned because he was coerced into a confession.

Yeah. Um, and like you have to take into account like the amount of things that police used to get away with. Like it's not, I would say, I mean, I would say it definitely still happens. Sure.

But I don't think it's as rampant as it once it was. Because I think there's a lot more oversight. Yes. In some of these places.

I mean, I'm not ignorant to think that bad things don't happen because I know that they do, but I don't think it says rampant. Yeah. I don't think so as it was. Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, it's like, it's like a whole tactic. It is. I mean, it's pretty, pretty crazy. I know.

If this was a long order SVU. Yeah. I'll leave you a bit. Some until state learn to walk out, walk out and get out of L L.

I got this walk out. Yeah. I love that show. Love some order.

Me too. SVU particularly. Yes. That's a good one.

Dun, Dun, Dun. Speaking of Dun, Dun, we are, um, yes, this was the Alfred plea episode. Um, this is fantastic. I actually had heard this.

There was a podcast, um, crime junkie had talked about this. And I thought, you know, this is really fascinating because I had no idea how the Alfred plea had really come to be that meant. Right. Yeah.

Like I knew that I knew what the Alfred plea was, but I had no idea like how the case happens. Right. So pretty cool. Interesting.

Pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Anyway, uh, Haley, how can they get ahold of us? Well, you can do that by sending us an email.

I had about mysteries at Appalachian at gmail.com. You can find us on our Facebook, Mount Mysteries, tales from Appalachia. Find us on Instagram, Mount Mysteries, don't Appalachia. And check us out on our patreon on patreon.com.com.

So I'm going to give a shout out. Are you ready? I'm ready. Are you really ready?

Super ready? Yep. Portland, Oregon. Hey, yeah, get it.

Thank you so much for listening. And we'll catch you next time. Bye. Bye.